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redsmetz
12-21-2006, 11:24 AM
In glancing at some stats today, I noticed a Ewell Blackwell's 1947 season and that got me wondering about Reds pitchers who would have won a Cy Young Award had the award existed. Of course, the Reds have had numerous CYA winners pitch for them, but no Red has won the award (although I think Tom Seaver was robbed one of his season's with the ballclub).

Prior to the awards inception, three seasons stand out as one's that would have won the award back then:

1923 Dolf Luque 27-8, 151 K's, 1.93 ERA

1939 Bucky Walters 27-11, 137 K's, 2.29 ERA (31 complete games!)
(Walters was the league MVP that season)

1947 Ewell Blackwell 22-8, 193 K's, 2.47 ERA

I may be missing others that folks can add and maybe there was some "Pitcher of the Year" award I'm just not aware of.

Just at a glance, that 1923 season looks as if it might have been one of the best overall seasons in history with some pretty good clubs that year.

westofyou
12-21-2006, 11:28 AM
Noodles Hahn 1902

NATIONAL LEAGUE
SEASON
1902


WINS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
LOSSES displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria

ERA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE W L RSAA
1 Jack Taylor 1.45 1.33 2.78 23 11 45
2 Noodles Hahn 1.01 1.77 2.78 23 12 47
3 Jesse Tannehill 0.83 1.95 2.78 20 6 21
4 Deacon Phillippe 0.73 2.05 2.78 20 9 22
5 Christy Mathewson 0.66 2.11 2.78 14 17 23
6 Jack Chesbro 0.61 2.17 2.78 28 6 19
7 Vic Willis 0.58 2.20 2.78 27 20 19
8 Luther Taylor 0.49 2.29 2.78 7 15 13
9 Sam Leever 0.39 2.39 2.78 16 7 9
10 Doc Newton 0.36 2.42 2.78 15 14 4

NJReds
12-21-2006, 11:43 AM
Mario Soto and Tom Seaver both had a great season in 1981 for the best team in the major leagues, but lost out to the rookie phenom from LA.


Player G ERA W L SV GS GF CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO ERA+
Mario Soto 25 3.29 12 9 0 25 0 10 3 175.0 142 69 64 13 61 151 108
Tom Seaver 23 2.54 14 2 0 23 0 6 1 166.3 120 51 47 10 66 87 140


Fernando Valenzuela 25 2.48 13 7 0 25 0 11 8 192.3 140 55 53 11 61 180 134

NJReds
12-21-2006, 11:48 AM
Soto did finish runner-up in 1983. I forgot how good this guy was and he played on some terrible teams.


Rk Name Team 1st-Place Points | W-L IP ERA WHIP SO
1 John Denny PHI 20 103 | 19-6 243 2.37 1.16 139
2 Mario Soto CIN 2 61 | 17-13 274 2.70 1.10 242

Edit: What I've posted answers your headline, but not the gist of your post.

westofyou
12-21-2006, 11:50 AM
CINCINNATI REDS
SEASON
MODERN (1900-)

WINS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
LOSSES displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria

ERA YEAR DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE W L RSAA
1 Dolf Luque 1923 2.07 1.93 3.99 27 8 66
2 Dolf Luque 1925 1.64 2.63 4.27 16 18 45
3 Bucky Walters 1939 1.63 2.29 3.91 27 11 58
4 Ewell Blackwell 1947 1.60 2.47 4.07 22 8 37
5 Jose Rijo 1993 1.56 2.48 4.05 14 9 44
6 Elmer Riddle 1941 1.39 2.24 3.63 19 4 30
7 Eppa Rixey 1925 1.38 2.89 4.27 21 11 36
8 Bucky Walters 1940 1.37 2.48 3.85 22 10 42
9 Bucky Walters 1944 1.21 2.40 3.61 23 8 27
10 Bronson Arroyo 2006 1.20 3.29 4.49 14 11 41

RedsBaron
12-21-2006, 12:07 PM
Had there been a Cy Young award at the time, Bucky Walters almost certainly would have been a three time winner (and those three Cy Young awards might have been enough to put him in the Hall of Fame). Redmetz has already mentioned Walters's greatest season, 1939, when he was NL MVP and won pitching's triple crown by leading the NL in wins (27), ERA (2.29) and strikeouts (137). Walters would also have won the Cy Young award in 1940, when he lead the NL in wins with 22, ERA (2.48), complete games (29) and innings pitched (305). He probably would have picked up his third Cy Young award in 1944; he lead the NL in wins with 23, while finishing second in shutouts (6), complete games (27) and ERA (2.40).

M2
12-21-2006, 12:08 PM
IIRC, many have rated Luque's 1923 as the best season by an NL pitcher in the 1920s.

redszmetz, in addition to the three seasons you listed above, my Palmer/Gillette baseball encyclopedia lists Walters as deserving the NL Cy Young in 1940 and 1944 as well (and if anyone's vague on who the best pitcher ever to don a Reds uniform is, that should clear up the confusion). Johnny Vander Meer won the Sporting News NL pitcher of the year award in 1938 (though it's fairly impossible to argue the Cubs' Big Bill Lee didn't have a better year).

Win Shares rates Bob Purkey as the deserving winner of the 1962 NL Cy Young, over Sandy Koufax, and Mario Soto as the deserving 1983 winner, over John Denny (though it might have been 1982 over Steve Carlton, don't have it in front of me).

You can make a strong case for Tom Seaver in 1981 and 1977. Jim Maloney suffered from bad timing. He had some great years, but Koufax and Juan Marichal were full-tilt insane in his best seasons.

Mainspark
12-21-2006, 12:08 PM
Danny Jackson's performance in 1988 in many seasons would have won him a Cy Young Award. 23 wins, 15 complete games, 2.73 ERA....

Johnny Footstool
12-21-2006, 12:14 PM
Pete Schourek in 1995.


Year Ag Tm Lg W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
1995 26 CIN NL 18 7 29 29 2 0 0 0 190.3 158 72 68 17 45 160 8 1 754 3 1 3.22 4.10 128 1.067

He finished 2nd in the Cy Young balloting to a much more deserving Gred Maddux that season.

Cyclone792
12-21-2006, 12:39 PM
Paul Derringer had a few very nice seasons, especially his three season stretch from 1938-1940, though he was usually playing second-fiddle on a pitching staff that had Bucky Walters as the staff ace.


PAUL DERRINGER

GIVEN NAME: Samuel Paul Derringer
BORN: 10/17/1906 Springfield, Kentucky DIED: 11/17/1987 Sarasota, Florida
BAT: R THROW: R HEIGHT: 6'3" WEIGHT: 205 MLB DEBUT: 4/16/1931

YEAR TEAM AGE W L PCT G GS CG SV GF IP H R ER BB SO ERA RSAA
1931 Cardinals 24 18 8 .692 35 23 15 2 10 212 225 88 79 65 134 3.35 17
1932 Cardinals 25 11 14 .440 39 30 14 0 4 233 296 133 105 67 78 4.06 -3
1933 Cardinals 26 0 2 .000 3 2 1 0 1 17 24 11 8 9 3 4.24 -2
Reds 26 7 25 .219 33 31 16 1 2 231 240 106 83 51 86 3.23 2
TOTALS 7 27 .206 36 33 17 1 3 248 264 117 91 60 89 3.30 0
1934 Reds 27 15 21 .417 47 31 18 4 15 261 297 129 104 59 122 3.59 19
1935 Reds 28 22 13 .629 45 33 20 2 9 277 295 132 108 49 120 3.51 7
1936 Reds 29 19 19 .500 51 37 13 5 10 282 331 147 126 42 121 4.02 -4
1937 Reds 30 10 14 .417 43 26 12 1 12 223 240 112 100 55 94 4.04 -11
1938 Reds 31 21 14 .600 41 37 26 3 4 307 315 110 100 49 132 2.93 24
1939 Reds 32 25 7 .781 38 35 28 0 1 301 321 115 98 35 128 2.93 33
1940 Reds 33 20 12 .625 37 37 26 0 0 297 280 110 101 48 115 3.06 22
1941 Reds 34 12 14 .462 29 28 17 1 1 228 233 91 84 54 76 3.32 4
1942 Reds 35 10 11 .476 29 27 13 0 0 209 203 83 71 49 68 3.06 6
1943 Cubs 36 10 14 .417 32 22 10 3 7 174 184 90 69 39 75 3.57 -4
1944 Cubs 37 7 13 .350 42 16 7 3 17 180 205 96 83 39 69 4.15 -10
1945 Cubs 38 16 11 .593 35 30 15 4 5 214 223 99 82 51 86 3.45 4
TOTALS 223 212 .513 579 445 251 29 98 3646 3912 1652 1401 761 1507 3.46 104
LG AVERAGE 202 202 .500 194 16 3646 3811 1797 1531 1206 1355 3.78 0

YEAR TEAM HR H/9 BR/9 SO/9 BB/9 SO/BB SHO WP IBB HBP BFP BK NW NL
1931 Cardinals 9 9.55 12.48 5.69 2.76 2.06 4 6 0 4 901 0 15 11
1932 Cardinals 6 11.43 14.10 3.01 2.59 1.16 1 9 0 2 1043 0 12 13
1933 Cardinals 0 12.71 18.00 1.59 4.76 0.33 0 1 0 1 84 0 1 1
Reds 4 9.35 11.53 3.35 1.99 1.69 2 6 0 5 961 0 16 16
TOTALS 4 9.58 11.98 3.23 2.18 1.48 2 7 0 6 1045 0 17 17
1934 Reds 8 10.24 12.41 4.21 2.03 2.07 1 7 0 4 1128 0 21 15
1935 Reds 13 9.58 11.31 3.90 1.59 2.45 3 2 0 4 1153 0 19 16
1936 Reds 11 10.56 12.03 3.86 1.34 2.88 2 6 0 4 1207 2 18 20
1937 Reds 7 9.69 11.91 3.79 2.22 1.71 1 0 0 0 963 0 11 13
1938 Reds 20 9.23 10.67 3.87 1.44 2.69 4 1 0 0 1263 0 21 14
1939 Reds 15 9.60 10.73 3.83 1.05 3.66 5 2 0 3 1245 0 20 12
1940 Reds 17 8.48 9.94 3.48 1.45 2.40 3 1 0 0 1205 0 19 13
1941 Reds 17 9.20 11.33 3.00 2.13 1.41 2 2 0 0 950 0 14 12
1942 Reds 4 8.74 11.02 2.93 2.11 1.39 1 0 0 4 872 0 11 10
1943 Cubs 7 9.52 11.53 3.88 2.02 1.92 2 3 0 0 743 0 11 13
1944 Cubs 13 10.25 12.20 3.45 1.95 1.77 0 2 0 0 772 0 9 11
1945 Cubs 7 9.38 11.57 3.62 2.14 1.69 1 2 0 1 901 0 14 13
TOTALS 158 9.66 11.61 3.72 1.88 1.98 32 50 0 32 15391 2 232 203
LG AVERAGE 197 9.41 12.54 3.34 2.98 1.12 27 64 0 63 15716 6


Sabermetric Baseball Encyclopedia
New editions are available every October
http://www.baseball-encyclopedia.com

vic715
12-21-2006, 12:40 PM
in 1961 Joey Jay won 21 and led the NL but Whitey Ford was 25-4 for the Yanks. In 62 Purkey was 23-5 but lost out to Drysdale 25-9.In 63 Maloney was 23-7 but lost out to Kofax. In 65 Sammy Ellis was 22-10 but he to lost out to a deserving Kofax.

macro
12-21-2006, 01:14 PM
Danny Jackson's performance in 1988 in many seasons would have won him a Cy Young Award. 23 wins, 15 complete games, 2.73 ERA....

...and Tom Browning went 18-5 with a perfect game...

bigredmachine1976
12-21-2006, 02:31 PM
The only reason Danny jackson didn't win the Cy Young that year was because Hershiser had that scoreless inning streak at the end of the season.

Hap
12-21-2006, 03:32 PM
The fourteenth post on this thread is the first one to remind everyone that Aaron Harang got zero votes and zero points in 2006, once again proving that the Cy Young Award is a farcical popularity contest.

Harang led the league in wins, strikeouts, games started, and complete games. He was second in shutouts, third in innings pitched, and eleventh in ERA.

westofyou
12-21-2006, 03:37 PM
Harang led the league in wins, strikeouts, games started, and complete games. He was second in shutouts, third in innings pitched, and eleventh in ERA.

Yet according to ERA vs the league Bronson had the better season, and in fact the 10th best season in Reds modern history.

How many votes and points did he get?

Anyone?

Falls City Beer
12-21-2006, 03:44 PM
We need redsupport's input on this thread PDQ.

Hap
12-21-2006, 03:54 PM
Yet according to ERA vs the league Bronson had the better season, and in fact the 10th best season in Reds modern history.

How many votes and points did he get?

Anyone?

That would also be zero.

NJReds
12-21-2006, 03:58 PM
Yet according to ERA vs the league Bronson had the better season, and in fact the 10th best season in Reds modern history.

How many votes and points did he get?

Anyone?

0

RANDY IN INDY
12-21-2006, 04:57 PM
Wayne Simpson had half of a Cy Young Season in 1970 before injuring his arm. That half season was the most dominating performance that I have ever witnessed from a Reds pitcher. I always think "What might have been........"

Heath
12-21-2006, 05:19 PM
Wayne Simpson had half of a Cy Young Season in 1970 before injuring his arm. That half season was the most dominating performance that I have ever witnessed from a Reds pitcher. I always think "What might have been........"

Then Brooks Lawrence and 1957 should be a great look for a half a season.

Glad someone put in Joey Jay in '61. Shoulda won it.

vaticanplum
12-21-2006, 08:47 PM
That would also be zero.

No, I'm pretty sure Arroyo got one vote.

MrCinatit
12-21-2006, 09:18 PM
No, I'm pretty sure Arroyo got one vote.

Strange enough, that one vote was for MVP, but not Cy Young.
Figure that one out.

vaticanplum
12-21-2006, 09:27 PM
Strange enough, that one vote was for MVP, but not Cy Young.
Figure that one out.

Oh that's right.

Yeah, that's a kicker. At least baseball writers are still stupider than my baseball team, albeit marginally.

cincinnati chili
12-21-2006, 09:29 PM
Rob Dibble 1990.

Overshadowed by the reliever in the other league that year (Eck). But arguably one of the 100 best single-season pitching performances in the history of baseball.

98 IP
96 baserunners
3 homers
19 Earned runs
136 strikeouts

vaticanplum
12-21-2006, 09:30 PM
Rob Dibble 1990.

Overshadowed by the reliever in the other league that year (Eck). But arguably one of the 100 best single-season pitching performances in the history of baseball.

98 IP
96 baserunners
3 homers
19 Earned runs
136 strikeouts

Wow. That is pretty freaking good.

redsupport
12-22-2006, 02:55 AM
What a provocotive thread. My memories of Cy Young Candidates include

Rich Gale
Pete Smith
Curt Lyons was 2-0
Kevin Jarvis and Tim Pugh battled for who was more effective out of the back of the rotation
but when all is digested the ultimate reds starter had to be either
Roger Salkeld
or Hank Fischer

RedsBaron
12-22-2006, 07:02 AM
Glad someone put in Joey Jay in '61. Shoulda won it.

Prior to 1967, there was only one Cy Young award given out to pitchers in both leagues. As someone previously pointed out, the Yankees Whitey Ford won the 1961 Cy Young award in a season in which his record was 25-4.
Had each league given out a Cy Young award in 1961, the NL winner could have been Joey Jay, as he tied for the league lead in wins, but I believe the award would have gone to Warren Spahn.
Jay, at 21-10, and Spahn, at 21-13, tied for the league lead in wins, and shutouts (4). However, Spahn also lead the league in ERA (3.02) while Jay finished out of the top five (3.53). Spahn also lead in complete games (21 to Jay's 14) and finished second in innings pitched (263 to Jay's 247). When you consider that Spahn was by then clearly regarded as a future Hall of Famer who had been one of the game's best pitchers for 15 years while Jay was a new comer, I'm pretty sure Spahn would've got the award.
In actual voting for the Cy Young award in 1961, while Ford won, Spahn finished second; Jay didn't get any votes. Curiously, while both were distant also rans, Jay did finish ahead of Spahn in voting for the NL MVP, with Jay ranking 5th and Spahn 10th, perhaps more of a reflection upon where their respective teams finished in the standings.
By the way, Spahn was 40 years old in 1961. Two years later, he would go 23-7.

redsmetz
12-22-2006, 07:08 AM
By the way, Spahn was 40 years old in 1961. Two years later, he would go 23-7.

Not to take this thread elsewhere, but can you imagine the howling around here if WK picked up such a pitcher?

BTW, I've always loved Warren Spahn. My first ballglove was an autographed model Hutch Warren Spahn glove. I loved that high leg kick!

M2
12-22-2006, 10:14 AM
Not to take this thread elsewhere, but can you imagine the howling around here if WK picked up such a pitcher?

BTW, I've always loved Warren Spahn. My first ballglove was an autographed model Hutch Warren Spahn glove. I loved that high leg kick!

You mean what kind of reaction would there have been had the Reds just signed Tom Glavine? My guess is it would have created widespread enthusiasm.

George Foster
12-22-2006, 06:16 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't a Reds pitcher finish 2nd to Doug Drebeck(sp?) in 1990? I thought it was Danny Jackson.

RedsBaron
12-22-2006, 09:06 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't a Reds pitcher finish 2nd to Doug Drebeck(sp?) in 1990? I thought it was Danny Jackson.

Nope. In 1990, Drabek had 23 of the 24 first place votes and 118 points. LA's Ramon Martinez was second, with one first place vote and 70 points. In third and fourth places were two Mets, Frank Viola with 19 points and Dwight Gooden with 8 points. The Reds Randy Myers finished fifth with 1 point.
Danny Jackson finsihed second to LA's Orel Hershiser in the 1988 Cy Young voting, but the vote wasn't close. Jackson had 54 points while Hershiser had 120 points and all 24 first place votes.