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BEETTLEBUG
12-23-2006, 10:07 PM
Is there any pitching left on the Free Agent market that is worthy to the Reds as Starters.

Dracodave
12-23-2006, 10:12 PM
Armas, Tony SP WSH --- --- ---
Bernero, Adam SP KC --- --- Minor League free agent
Chen, Bruce SP BAL --- --- ---
Clemens, Roger SP HOU --- --- ---
Dickey, R.A. SP TEX --- --- Minor League free agent
Estes, Shawn SP SD --- --- ---
Fernandez, Jared SP MIL --- --- Minor League free agent
Hansack, Devern SP BOS --- --- Minor League free agent
Harper, Travis SP TB --- --- Released
Helling, Rick SP MIL --- --- ---
Jarvis, Kevin SP BOS --- --- Minor League free agent
Karsay, Steve SP OAK --- --- Released
Lima, Jose SP NYM --- --- Minor League free agent
Moehler, Brian SP FLA --- --- ---
Mulder, Mark SP STL --- --- ---
Ohka, Tomo SP MIL --- --- ---
Ortiz, Ramon SP WSH --- --- ---
Park, Chan Ho SP SD --- --- ---
Perez, Beltran SP WSH --- --- Minor League free agent
Pineiro, Joel SP SEA --- --- Non-tendered
Redman, Mark SP KC --- --- ---
Sele, Aaron SP LAD --- --- ---
Suppan, Jeff SP STL --- --- ---
Thomson, John SP ATL --- --- ---
Trachsel, Steve SP NYM --- --- ---
Weaver, Jeff SP STL --- --- ---
Wells, David SP SD --- --- ---
Wilson, Paul SP CIN --- --- ---
Wright, Jamey SP SF --- --- Mutual option declined
Zito, Barry SP OAK --- --- ---


You're call on whos good or whos not, who we can afford or can't, and who we'll just pass up and say "maybe next year!".

Tom Servo
12-23-2006, 10:23 PM
I wouldn't taking a flyer on Tony Armas. Maybe he just needs to get away from that Montreal/Washington trainwreck of a franchise.

pedro
12-23-2006, 10:24 PM
Mark Mulder was HORRIBLE last year but he still may be the most intriguing pitcher that is in the Reds range. The big question is whether he'll be healthy.

BEETTLEBUG
12-24-2006, 01:14 AM
Tom Servo,
Did you mean you would take flyer on Armas or NO wouldn't? You sounded one way but wrote the opposet.

Dracodave
12-24-2006, 01:18 AM
I think he meant "I wouldn't mind taking a flyer"

Tom Servo
12-24-2006, 01:27 AM
I think he meant "I wouldn't mind taking a flyer"
Yup, that's what I meant.

BEETTLEBUG
12-24-2006, 04:49 AM
I read Mulder has two 2 yr offers on table but he is on Honeymoon, would you go two years?

Ltlabner
12-24-2006, 01:32 PM
Instead of the stopgap guys like Moller, Crosby and Conine, I'd rather Wayne be stockpiling a raft of equivlent tallent pitchers. Obviously, you want all top quality pitchers, but if given the choice between stock piling run of the mill pitching in hopes of finding a suprise quality arm, and stock piling run of the mill utility guys, I'd MUCH rather he go after the pitching.

All it really takes (IMO) is one big bat acquired via trade or FA to round out the offense (obviously more is better). But if he's going to go with the "round em up and sort em out" method again in spring training, I'd rather he do so with arms.

BEETTLEBUG
12-26-2006, 06:31 AM
Dracodave,
Who do you think is worthy from your list on 12/23 ? When I would say Armas,Ohka,Pineiro,Beltran Perez,Thomson, or Jerome Williams you all say no no no no.So what do you think?

dfs
12-26-2006, 11:47 AM
I'm not sure that I can pick out quality from that list, but if what you're thinking about is adding depth to the starting rotation, (somebody who stands a reasonable chance of putting up 30 starts with a league average era) there are several pitchers there who might be attractive at the right price.

Even adjusted for park, four of Steve Trachsel's last five seasons have been acceptable. His last contract was a one year deal for 2.5 million. Sure, you don't like the direction that his career is headed and he's nothing more than a placeholder...but you can live with that till Homer comes along.

The reds have four slots they are counting on, but guys will get hurt. Milton's knee's won't vanish. They are counting on Kyle Lohse. Both Arroyo and Harang threw a ton of innings. Depth is a good thing.Those are the guys they are counting on. In addition to those they need one of the following to step up.

Elizardo Rameriz (who the manager seems to have lost confidense in)
Matt Belisle (whose back makes him a constant question mark)
Livingston (the waiver wire pickup who stank at AAA last year)
Homer(not likely to start on the 25....but stranger things have happened)
Dumatrait(Not gonna happen)
and that's pretty much it. I'm assuming that Claussen will not be back after the quotes from Narron/Krivsky when he was waived.

Now, if things work out....Nobody gets hurt and the reds get out of the gate quick....Would you rather have Belilse/Rameriz in that fifth starter slot or some random name off the list above? If things don't work out, you've pissed away two million and 10 starts on roster churn.

For a million or two, adding somebody like Trachsel to that staff isn't a terrible idea. They need to wait till all the series money is off the table and then pursue the scraps. That's not what red's fans want to hear, but it's the way franchises like this go. Trachsel, Sele ....

Wouldn't it be a pisser if the organization finally made room for Jared Fernandez?

icehole3
12-26-2006, 12:54 PM
I think by the end of January all those guys on the list will at least shaved off a million and maybe some years off their contract demands. Thats when the stockpiling will begin.

Falls City Beer
12-26-2006, 12:56 PM
Instead of the stopgap guys like Moller, Crosby and Conine, I'd rather Wayne be stockpiling a raft of equivlent tallent pitchers. Obviously, you want all top quality pitchers, but if given the choice between stock piling run of the mill pitching in hopes of finding a suprise quality arm, and stock piling run of the mill utility guys, I'd MUCH rather he go after the pitching.

All it really takes (IMO) is one big bat acquired via trade or FA to round out the offense (obviously more is better). But if he's going to go with the "round em up and sort em out" method again in spring training, I'd rather he do so with arms.

Jim Bowden, we hardly knew ye.

Dracodave
12-26-2006, 04:54 PM
Dracodave,
Who do you think is worthy from your list on 12/23 ? When I would say Armas,Ohka,Pineiro,Beltran Perez,Thomson, or Jerome Williams you all say no no no no.So what do you think?

Frankly.. I'd take flyers or trade for some of the younger guys teams pass up on. Williams, Kevin Correia, Brad Hennessey, Kirk Saarloos,Cha Seung Baek or anyone type of guy who struggles starting the team sours and puts them in relief. We can get them cheap and we have "rebuilding" years anyway. We can try to adjust these guys as we build up the team. It's not like trying these things would hurt. It beats running out people who know have little upside.

The problem is, who can we trade? Cormier, Weathers, Stanton, Milton, Griffey, Conine? Without giving up everyone and declaring it a rebuild year we have no trading chips.

So whats our next big bet?

Williams.
Ohka.
Pineiro.

Pray that we can change cheap guys, the picks of Burton and Livingston things we need can do cheaply with high upside.

We should have traded Kearns and Lopez for starters. Get decent starting, and you dont need long relief. Why didn't we? Panic! at great american ballpark.

Trading Kearns or Lopez to any of the above teams, Seatle...San Fran...etc. To get decent young pitching makes more sense than trading them for more holes and problems.

You can't tell me Seatle would have turned down Kearns for Cha Seung Baek + a decent prospect. Expecially not with the stupid moves they've made lately.

It was a bad call by Kriv then and it is really reflected now.

Ending this, I can't say who we should or should not get cause the problem...
Does Kriv even care about the majors? Packaging up two players for Cha Seung Baek a week ago might have been easier than Conine? Why didnt he move on his beloved pitching..instead of old-timers?

We add budget in all the wrong places.