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I(heart)Freel
12-26-2006, 04:57 PM
Ok... we all know from last year that Wayne is a last minute shopper. So I humbly submit the following names of starting pitchers the Reds can go get right now.

While no one available on the open market has great stats right now... the two numbers I thought I would at least look at are groundball-to-flyball ratio (since we know how GABP plays) and last year's salary.

With that in mind... and with the list below... I declare the pitcher the Reds should be (and may well be) talking to is... Mark Mulder.

Yes, he's coming off surgery. A risk. But I suspect you can get him for a one year contract to show he's healthy (possibly laden with incentives). Reports have him talking to St. Louis, Texas and "maybe" Cleveland. I think we're Cleveland actually.

Relevant points: BCast knows Mulder from his days in St. Louis. Knows he would be one "name" player that we could afford, to make good on his promise to make a splash and spend some dough (since AGon and Stanton, while upgrades, are clearly not splashes). It would also set St. Louis back to steal him from them, which doubly helps us. You also have to know that when we spend money for a defensive specialist shortstop, we're going to put him to work. Hence, my belief in signing a groundball pitcher.

I know folks want Homer to be the guy come spring. But I say you have to prepare for him not being ready. And to do that, you have to go get another starter. As we transition from an offensive club to the Krivsky/Minnesota model of pitching and defense, you need at least 3 good starters. Then let your depth fill in the other spots. We're stuck with Milton (who will perform better, if only because it's another contract year for him) and I think Lohse is a nice low-end fifth starter. Then we can watch Paul Wilson battle back and/or the Lizard take some maturation steps in AAA.

Anyway... here's the list. See who jumps out at you.


FREE AGENT STARTERS - CURRENTLY AVAILABLE

Armas... 1 GB/FB ratio... made $2 mill last year

Chen... .83 ratio... made $3.8 mill last year

Estes... 1.79 ratio... made $1.1 mill last year... hurt in April, could be a great one year incentive contract

Moehler... 1.54 ratio... made $1.5 mill last year

Mulder... 2 ratio... made $7.75 mill last year... shut down in August, incentive contract with respect for his abilities

Ohka... 1.43 ratio... made $4.5 mill last year... knows central well

Park... 1.2 ratio... made $16 mill last year... might want to re-establish himself with a one year contract

Pineiro... 1.29 ratio... $6.8 mill last year... might want to re-establish himself with a one year contract

Redman... 1 ratio... $4.5 mill last year... lefty

Sele... 1.31 ratio... $???... consistent winner

Thomson... 1.28 ratio... $4.75 mill last year

Traschel... 1.23 ratio... $2.5 mill last year

Jeff Weaver... 1.16 ratio... $8.3 mill last year... might want to re-establish himself with a one year contract... could also get along with Arroyo and give the Reds a nasty-boys rotation

Wells... 1.17 ratio... $4 mill last year... considering retiring, one more year?

Jerome Williams... 1.18 ratio... $380k last year... only 25, worth a risk?

Jamey Wright... 2 ratio... $500k last year... 2.53 ratio last year!

Vic Zambrano... 1.31 ratio... $3 mill last year...coming off arm surgery, looking for a bounceback year?

and for comparison sake:

Zito... .89 ratio... $7.9 mill last year... likely seeking $15-18 mill a year multiyear contract

Dracodave
12-26-2006, 05:17 PM
Anyway... here's the list. See who jumps out at you.


FREE AGENT STARTERS - CURRENTLY AVAILABLE

Armas... 1 GB/FB ratio... made $2 mill last year

Chen... .83 ratio... made $3.8 mill last year

Estes... 1.79 ratio... made $1.1 mill last year... hurt in April, could be a great one year incentive contract

Moehler... 1.54 ratio... made $1.5 mill last year

Mulder... 2 ratio... made $7.75 mill last year... shut down in August, incentive contract with respect for his abilities

Ohka... 1.43 ratio... made $4.5 mill last year... knows central well

Park... 1.2 ratio... made $16 mill last year... might want to re-establish himself with a one year contract

Pineiro... 1.29 ratio... $6.8 mill last year... might want to re-establish himself with a one year contract

Redman... 1 ratio... $4.5 mill last year... lefty

Sele... 1.31 ratio... $???... consistent winner

Thomson... 1.28 ratio... $4.75 mill last year

Traschel... 1.23 ratio... $2.5 mill last year

Jeff Weaver... 1.16 ratio... $8.3 mill last year... might want to re-establish himself with a one year contract... could also get along with Arroyo and give the Reds a nasty-boys rotation

Wells... 1.17 ratio... $4 mill last year... considering retiring, one more year?

Jerome Williams... 1.18 ratio... $380k last year... only 25, worth a risk?

Jamey Wright... 2 ratio... $500k last year... 2.53 ratio last year!

Vic Zambrano... 1.31 ratio... $3 mill last year...coming off arm surgery, looking for a bounceback year?

and for comparison sake:

Zito... .89 ratio... $7.9 mill last year... likely seeking $15-18 mill a year multiyear contract

Armas- Too young.
Chen- We tried him once before.
Estes- Read above.
Mohler- Sucked last time he was here.
Mulder- Hurt? Check. Experienced? Check. Can he do amazing things with the bat and play the game the right way? Ask WK.
Ohka- I'd like him but I'd venture to say WK doesn't.
Park- Boras wants him to close games now. Think's thats where the money is at.
Pineiro-I'd like him but I'd venture to say WK doesn't.
Redman- PAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSS
Sele- Old? Check. Plays the game the right way? Check. Heeey. We might have something.
Thomspon- PASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Traschel - Read Sele.
Weaver- Likely going to price himself out of our range due to that great post season.
Wells- Pass.
Williams- I'd like him but WK doesnt. Too young.
Jamey Wright-Pass.
Zambrano- The Mets couldnt fix him can we?
Zito- Hello tomorrow, goodbye to yesterday.

AdamDunn
12-26-2006, 05:18 PM
I'd take J. Williams, S. Estes, and B. Moehler on minor league deals.

maniem
12-26-2006, 05:23 PM
I definitely wouldn't mind going for Mulder, but I think it will be pretty difficult to trump anything St. Louis has to offer. Now that Suppan has moved on to the Brewers, I believe the Cards will do whatever it takes to resign him. However, if the Reds could offer an incentive deal for 07 and an option for 08, i'd be fine with that. Would it be enough to lure him away from the Cards?

I also remember seeing rumors about the A's possibly making Haren available a few weeks ago. I highly doubt this is true, but if it is, the Reds need to be the first in line for him. I would move anyone not named Bailey or Bruce for him. Perhaps a package of Stubbs, Cueto, and Freel/Denorfia? I might even offer Dunn for him. A rotation of Harang, Arroyo, Haren, Mulder, Milton/Bailey would very tough to beat. Pipe dream? Probably, but these are types of moves the Reds have to be trying to make.

dougdirt
12-26-2006, 05:28 PM
Cant trade Drew Stubbs until June.

Dracodave
12-26-2006, 05:28 PM
I definitely wouldn't mind going for Mulder, but I think it will be pretty difficult to trump anything St. Louis has to offer. Now that Suppan has moved on to the Brewers, I believe the Cards will do whatever it takes to resign him. However, if the Reds could offer an incentive deal for 07 and an option for 08, i'd be fine with that. Would it be enough to lure him away from the Cards?

I also remember seeing rumors about the A's possibly making Haren available a few weeks ago. I highly doubt this is true, but if it is, the Reds need to be the first in line for him. I would move anyone not named Bailey or Bruce for him. Perhaps a package of Stubbs, Cueto, and Freel/Denorfia? I might even offer Dunn for him. A rotation of Harang, Arroyo, Haren, Mulder, Milton/Bailey would very tough to beat. Pipe dream? Probably, but these are types of moves the Reds have to be trying to make.

For Haren, I move Bruce. Why? Give Oakland a could be, for a right now. Bruce is still two years away. Haren is right now. We can sign Haren long term as well.

lroeders
12-26-2006, 05:38 PM
I like Mulder if we can get him. I hope Wilson comes back and is a suprise 5th starter.

gm
12-26-2006, 05:39 PM
Ironic. I was just reading this list over at espn.com...in order...Okha, Trachsel, Sele

OTOH, WK probably thinks he already has a set rotation of Harang, Arroyo, Lohse, Milton and the Lizard. At least until Homer's ready

Falls City Beer
12-26-2006, 05:40 PM
Ironic. I was just reading this list over at espn.com...in order...Okha, Trachsel, Sele

OTOH, WK probably thinks he already has a set rotation of Harang, Arroyo, Lohse, Milton and the Lizard. At least until Homer's ready

Ugh. Trachsel and Sele--roadkill.

reds44
12-26-2006, 05:41 PM
Jerome Williams is a guy I wouldn't mind seeing us go after.

FutureRedsGM
12-26-2006, 05:54 PM
I love your analysis on Mulder and if I coud rep you, I would!!! I think Mulder (injury or not), would be the kind of name that BCast is looking to bring in to create fan interest. Let it be written that this fan would be interested!! I think an incentive laden contract with a base salary around 8 mil and a mutual option for the second year at 10 mil might get it done. Mulder is the kind of low risk / high reward that RZ has been screaming for all off-season.

marcshoe
12-26-2006, 06:04 PM
Sele was indeed a consistent winner from 1997-2001. Since then, he has won between 6 and 9 games a year. I guess that's consistent as well. in three of the past four years, his ERA has been over 5. Again, consistent.

But his best years do match up pretty will with Conine's, so when Krivsky made out his list of players to acquire a decade or so ago, Sele may well have been on it.

FutureRedsGM
12-26-2006, 06:10 PM
Sele was indeed a consistent winner from 1997-2001. Since then, he has won between 6 and 9 games a year. I guess that's consistent as well. in three of the past four years, his ERA has been over 5. Again, consistent.

But his best years do match up pretty will with Conine's, so when Krivsky made out his list of players to acquire a decade or so ago, Sele may well have been on it.

Add Stanton to that list as well.

I(heart)Freel
12-26-2006, 06:11 PM
Sele was indeed a consistent winner from 1997-2001. Since then, he has won between 6 and 9 games a year. I guess that's consistent as well. in three of the past four years, his ERA has been over 5. Again, consistent.

But his best years do match up pretty will with Conine's, so when Krivsky made out his list of players to acquire a decade or so ago, Sele may well have been on it.
Certainly not a big Sele fan... and I don't want this thread to get too much about him... but my comment referred to his winning percentages (even recent ones):

2001 Sea .750
2002 Ana .471
2003 Ana .389
2004 Ana .692
2005 Sea .333
2006 LA .571

In his career, he has won more than he's lost. Guess that was my point.

But yea... he's pretty far down on my list.

Dracodave
12-26-2006, 06:22 PM
Sele and Traschel could be our fifth starters because..well...Kriv digs those second chance players ;)

Jpup
12-26-2006, 07:02 PM
Mulder for a #3 and Chan Ho Park can close. I also wouldn't mind a flyer on Zambrano if he is cheap.

gm
12-26-2006, 07:08 PM
Ugh. Trachsel and Sele--roadkill.

You mean Reds-kill?

Trachsel 3-1 vs. Cincy since '02 (Sele 2-0)

The Fred Norman principle. If you can't beat 'em? Sign 'em.

Highlifeman21
12-26-2006, 07:52 PM
I'd take J. Williams, S. Estes, and B. Moehler on minor league deals.

This would be the same S. Estes and B. Moehler who previously wasted roster spots on the Reds?

Dracodave
12-26-2006, 08:10 PM
This would be the same S. Estes and B. Moehler who previously wasted roster spots on the Reds?

And Moehler sported a 7-ish era while with us?

cincrazy
12-26-2006, 08:47 PM
I'd love to see us take a chance on Ohka. He's a groundball pitcher, has had some success. I think he'd be a good guy to slot in after Harang and Arroyo. For a team like us, I think he'd make a solid middle of the rotation starter

Dracodave
12-26-2006, 09:13 PM
I'd love to see us take a chance on Ohka. He's a groundball pitcher, has had some success. I think he'd be a good guy to slot in after Harang and Arroyo. For a team like us, I think he'd make a solid middle of the rotation starter

With a career era of just above 4. He's a pretty solid number 3/4 for most teams.

traderumor
12-26-2006, 09:18 PM
Jerome Williams seems like a no-brainer, cheap low risk/high reward with his live arm. Not sure what he is doing to get shipped around is the main concern, but he is hitting that age where it comes together if its going to happen.

Dracodave
12-26-2006, 09:22 PM
Jerome Williams seems like a no-brainer, cheap low risk/high reward with his live arm. Not sure what he is doing to get shipped around is the main concern, but he is hitting that age where it comes together if its going to happen.

Wasn't Williams rushed to the majors? I remember him playing for the Giants when he was what 20-ish?

Falls City Beer
12-26-2006, 09:22 PM
Jerome Williams seems like a no-brainer, cheap low risk/high reward with his live arm. Not sure what he is doing to get shipped around is the main concern, but he is hitting that age where he might put it all together if he ever will.

And he'd give the bullpen a different look, a desperately needed different look.

mth123
12-27-2006, 05:44 AM
Not sure about all the love for Mulder. Partially torn rotator cuff, fraying around the labrum, looks like he won't be ready until June and who knows if he'll ever be effective again. He's also had a history of issues with his hip.

I'd sign Jerome Williams in a heartbeat and may take a chance on Ohka or Armas if they would come more cheaply than Lohse. Then I'd trade Lohse for a prospect or two.

I'd prefer a trade for an untapped starter who may be wasting away in some ones pen. Wil Ledezma, Kevin Correia, Ryan Madsen, and Carlos Marmol are examples. Not sure what the Reds could trade to get them though. Freel? Mediocre Relievers? mid-level minor leaguers?

Dracodave
12-27-2006, 10:48 AM
I'd prefer a trade for an untapped starter who may be wasting away in some ones pen. Wil Ledezma, Kevin Correia, Ryan Madsen, and Carlos Marmol are examples. Not sure what the Reds could trade to get them though. Freel? Mediocre Relievers? mid-level minor leaguers?


Detriot needs a lefty out of the pen, I wonder if Cormier + a mid-level prospect might do the trick for Ledezma? Kevin Correia, with the Giants age policy, I wonder if Conine could do that job? He'd be a perfect platoon partner for Klesko :cool:. Madson I'm guessing not much would take to get him as the Phillys have soured on him abit.

I also wouldn't mind looking into Shaun Marcum (Toronto), Seth McClung (Tampa Bay) and Mike Maroth (Detriot). I'm guessing they might provide the Reds atleast something for cheap, as expecailly McClung doesnt appear to have good command. Not saying that a decent pitching coach can't work with McClung about that but heck worth a shot aint it?

Newman4
12-27-2006, 11:00 AM
Jerome Williams and Ryan Madson = potential closers? Both came up as starters with live arms, but not quite 3 consistent quality pitches. In fact, we already have another guy like this in Lohse. There's your Nasty Boys, except none is LH.

flyer85
12-27-2006, 11:03 AM
Jerome Williams seems like a no-brainer... which is why he won't be a Red. :help:

mth123
12-27-2006, 11:04 AM
Detriot needs a lefty out of the pen, I wonder if Cormier + a mid-level prospect might do the trick for Ledezma? Kevin Correia, with the Giants age policy, I wonder if Conine could do that job? He'd be a perfect platoon partner for Klesko :cool:. Madson I'm guessing not much would take to get him as the Phillys have soured on him abit.

I also wouldn't mind looking into Shaun Marcum (Toronto), Seth McClung (Tampa Bay) and Mike Maroth (Detriot). I'm guessing they might provide the Reds atleast something for cheap, as expecailly McClung doesnt appear to have good command. Not saying that a decent pitching coach can't work with McClung about that but heck worth a shot aint it?

Good names for the list (except not high on Maroth).

I've wondered the same thing about Cormier to Detroit. They don't seem to be averse to old guys in the pen (Jones, Mesa) but they are smart enough to know that Cormier isn't that good. It would probably take Cormier plus. Just not sure how much plus they would need. I probably wouldn't do Wood or Cueto in this case but I'd include any prospect not in the Reds top 5 with Cormier for Ledezma.

flyer85
12-27-2006, 11:04 AM
I would like a Williams/Ohka or Williams/Armas combo.

Dracodave
12-27-2006, 11:43 AM
I've wondered the same thing about Cormier to Detroit. They don't seem to be averse to old guys in the pen (Jones, Hernandez) but they are smart enough to know that Cormier isn't that good. It would probably take Cormier plus. Just not sure how much plus they would need. I probably wouldn't do Wood or Cueto in this case but I'd include any prospect not in the Reds top 5 with Cormier for Ledezma.

Thats my train of thought, if you know what a team needs start talking and adding players. If it gets too lopsided, start looking into other players team have soured on. Don't just randomly give in cause you have pressure to get a player.


Jerome Williams and Ryan Madson = potential closers? Both came up as starters with live arms, but not quite 3 consistent quality pitches. In fact, we already have another guy like this in Lohse. There's your Nasty Boys, except none is LH

No, if Williams or Madson is on game they are lights out. Williams expecially, both are young enough to actually adjust. Madson is roughly 27. Williams is roughly 26. With a help from Harrang, Arroyo and Dick Pole, I think they could both become inning eaters.

McClung is 26, Weathcer is 26 and Marcum is 26 as well. These are the type of pitchers the Reds should go after, not the older types. If you want to see what sticks..Stick with guys who can only go up and not back down.

As far as Loshe goes, you're right. Lohse is comparable to all of these guys but the main seperation between the five if money. Lohse is well overpaid, these guys aren't.

Falls City Beer
12-27-2006, 11:46 AM
I'm fine with Williams, but I don't want to endure the headache of a gimp like Armas.

rodgiep
12-27-2006, 12:04 PM
Not sure about all the love for Mulder. Partially torn rotator cuff, fraying around the labrum, looks like he won't be ready until June and who knows if he'll ever be effective again. He's also had a history of issues with his hip.

I'd sign Jerome Williams in a heartbeat and may take a chance on Ohka or Armas if they would come more cheaply than Lohse. Then I'd trade Lohse for a prospect or two.

I'd prefer a trade for an untapped starter who may be wasting away in some ones pen. Wil Ledezma, Kevin Correia, Ryan Madsen, and Carlos Marmol are examples. Not sure what the Reds could trade to get them though. Freel? Mediocre Relievers? mid-level minor leaguers?
If there was one move in baseball in recent memory that put a club on the road to greatness, it was the Cards signing Chris Carpenter in 2003 - even though he was coming off injury and wasn't ready to start opening day. In fact, he didn't start at all that year.

But he rewarded them big time by coming back strong after that. Cy Young anyone? Pennants? World Series?

I think the Reds should take that similar approach with Mulder. The dude has clearly shown he knows how to pitch. So get him on your side. Show him some love. And watch him reward you when he comes back strong - whenever that is.

That's my two pennies.

flyer85
12-27-2006, 12:26 PM
difference between Carpenter/Mulder is that Carpenter was coming off TJ surgery, not cuff and labrum surgery on his shoulder. TJ surgery has a much greater rate of success.

IslandRed
12-27-2006, 12:39 PM
If there was one move in baseball in recent memory that put a club on the road to greatness, it was the Cards signing Chris Carpenter in 2003 - even though he was coming off injury and wasn't ready to start opening day. In fact, he didn't start at all that year.

But he rewarded them big time by coming back strong after that. Cy Young anyone? Pennants? World Series?

I think the Reds should take that similar approach with Mulder. The dude has clearly shown he knows how to pitch. So get him on your side. Show him some love. And watch him reward you when he comes back strong - whenever that is.

That's my two pennies.

The differences, in my opinion:

1. Carpenter had Tommy John surgery. There are never any guarantees but there's a track record of guys coming back from that. Mulder has shoulder stuff going on, which is murkier water.

And let's be honest, it wasn't exactly obvious at the time that the Cardinals were getting a Cy Young winner for their patience. Carpenter's four seasons before his 2004 comeback: Bad, Good, Bad, Out. He not only came back, he was much better than before. That's not an outcome any team should bet big money on.

2. Carpenter's was a no-risk deal; the Cardinals paid him the minimum in both the rehab year and his first year back, both one-year deals with no guarantees he'd stick around. From what I've read, Mulder has multi-year offers on the table, and if he takes less it will be to go back to St. Louis. Taking a flier on a guy is one thing; Mulder will require a substantial investment.

Dracodave
12-27-2006, 04:20 PM
A little info on the pitchers I named..
Ryan Madson (http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/teams/players/bio/?id=3539&hubname=mlb-phillies)
Wilfredo Ledezma (http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/teams/players/bio/?id=3817&hubname=mlb-tigers)
Brad Hennesy (http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/teams/players/bio/?id=5067&hubname=mlb-giants)

Corriea, McClung and Weathcer don't have TSN scounting reports so I can't offer them. However, all of the above offer mid-rotation starters we need at a good price tag/risk combination.

reds44
12-27-2006, 04:25 PM
Jerome Williams and Dick Pole were both on the Cubs either last year or the year before. Hopefully Dick tells Wayne some good things about him.

Spitball
12-27-2006, 04:51 PM
I hear Williams has had some weight problems which may be one of the reasons he has bounced around lately. Though, the last time I saw him pitch with the Cubs, he wasn't missing many bats.

Also, I understand the A's may already have him set to sign a minor league contract.

DannyB
12-28-2006, 08:23 AM
Randy Johnson

Newman4
12-28-2006, 10:02 AM
Anyone else think that our signing a FA starter is dependent on a trade of Milton? I think they would both open up the wallet and open up a rotation slot with one move.

Jpup
12-28-2006, 06:47 PM
Randy Johnson

and his 16 million dollar contract? no thanks.

DannyB
12-29-2006, 07:08 PM
and his 16 million dollar contract? no thanks.

Ok Randy Johnson and some cash

savafan
12-29-2006, 07:13 PM
Can the Reds use the posting system the Japanese teams use for Milton? :evil:

I(heart)Freel
12-31-2006, 11:59 AM
and his 16 million dollar contract? no thanks.
You know the thing I don't ever really get... well, there are a few things.

One is people complaining - mostly on other threads - about some perceived inactivity by our FO this offseason. We have NO idea how much or how little Wayne and his peeps are doing. Was he talking to Zito or other high profile FAs? We may never know. Is he working all the trades that people are throwing out there? He might be. He might not. But we don't know. So it seems downright silly to groan about it on here.

The other... and the reason I'm posting this here... is the assumption that the Reds wouldnt add a phat contract just cuz.

Take Randall Johnson and his $16 mill contract. You wouldn't want him wearing a Reds uniform??? I agree that LONG term bad contracts can handcuff a team and its ability to compete. (See "Milton, Erc.") But why would we be opposed to picking up that one year Unit contract? If BCast decides to bump the payroll to accomodate that contract, why would any fan be opposed?

Now granted... Unit has issues. Big time. But I would be a helluva lot more concerned about the players it would take to trade for him than the money he's due. The money side doesn't hurt beyond this year. And there's no indication that the money side would hurt this year. Someone can make the argument that it would hinder our ability to add payroll at deadline. That's possible. Or we could choose to believe that if BCast would open his wallet to upgrade our rotation now - and that's what this would be - then certainly he would spend a bit more at deadline to get what we might need.

And make no mistake: an over the hill Johnson is still waaaaay better than our mystery fifth starter.

Just seems in general that people are making too many assumption on this board about the backroom business of our favorite club. We don't know the max payroll figure. We don't know the deals that are underway or have fallen through. So why talk like we do?

Dracodave
12-31-2006, 12:41 PM
You know the thing I don't ever really get... well, there are a few things.

One is people complaining - mostly on other threads - about some perceived inactivity by our FO this offseason. We have NO idea how much or how little Wayne and his peeps are doing. Was he talking to Zito or other high profile FAs? We may never know. Is he working all the trades that people are throwing out there? He might be. He might not. But we don't know. So it seems downright silly to groan about it on here.

The other... and the reason I'm posting this here... is the assumption that the Reds wouldnt add a phat contract just cuz.


I think the problem is people want good cheap pitching. That doesn't always happen. If you want good pitching you do have to pay the price for it. If Randy Johnson comes to Cincinnati, goes 19-4 with a 3.50 era guess what? He's worth the 16 million. If he goes 10-10 with a 2.50 era , He's still worth the money cause he kept our team in the game.

However, I wouldnt take my chances giving up anything good to get him. I would still be targeting the younger pitchers teams sour on.

mth123
12-31-2006, 01:03 PM
I think the problem is people want good cheap pitching. That doesn't always happen. If you want good pitching you do have to pay the price for it. If Randy Johnson comes to Cincinnati, goes 19-4 with a 3.50 era guess what? He's worth the 16 million. If he goes 10-10 with a 2.50 era , He's still worth the money cause he kept our team in the game.

However, I wouldnt take my chances giving up anything good to get him. I would still be targeting the younger pitchers teams sour on.

This is more addressed toward the quote you responded to than it is what you said in particular.

Actually the problem is that when asked if he was going to address his rotation he said something like "not unless the price comes down." From that statement we conclude that he doesn't have money to address the one thing that could help him contend all year which is the #3 starter spot. But then he has money to tender Lohse at a likely cost of $6 Million, sign Weathers and Stanton for a combined $5 Million and trade for Conine at $2 Million? That is $13 Million. Better spent on a legit #3 and backfill with young guys or minor league FA for the RH 1B and Bullpen.

Its not a case of having the money. Its much more a case of how it has been spent. I don't need to assume any back room anything. Its a case of what he's said and what he has done. If you want to tell me that Kyle Lohse is the 3rd or 4th starter (which WK announced), I have every right to review his performance and question the move. Lohse has had 1/2 of 1 good season and that was last year when it was a first time around the league mirage. If your going to gamble that a guy is going to put it together, then go cheap and spend the $6 Million in other areas that could use the help (like legit bullpen help instead of the geezers or a real power threat at 1B instead of Conine).

Too much money has been frittered away on guys who are slight if any upgrades to any cheap option to accept the "not unless the price comes down" response when asked about addressing the rotation. Spreading it around the way he has, has left the team well below average in all areas and with no real strengths to capitalize upon.

Dracodave
12-31-2006, 03:25 PM
Mth, you bring up a good point. Combine the money from Stanton, Weathers, Conine, Cormier and Lohse, you roughly get somewhere between 16 to 18 million. You're dealing with Zito money there. That could have brough in a decent enough number three in free agency, a young right handed bat and let our minor league pitchers in triple a (salmon etc) battle for the bullpen roles.

If anything showed last year, it was that middle relief went cheaper than what Krivisky paid for it. And I really happen to think that if you bring in a solid number three pitcher, you'll limit our bullpen usage which will make them better.

This always brings up something I've been saying. Why didnt we aim for more than Conine in that trade? Why not bring back Madson/Geary as well? I think the problem was is, we added payroll but nothing else. We didnt bring back enough value, for what we took.

I(heart)Freel
12-31-2006, 04:29 PM
I don't need to assume any back room anything. Its a case of what he's said and what he has done. If you want to tell me that Kyle Lohse is the 3rd or 4th starter (which WK announced), I have every right to review his performance and question the move.


Agreed. Question that move til the cows come home. That's what this site is all about, I figure.

It's the people who say, why didn't WK go after this guy or inquire about that guy or pitch this trade or that trade. That's foolish. No one on here knows, period. So it's baseless speculation.

But amen - please chime in on actual moves etc. (And that said, I happen to think Lohse is going to be a good #4 starter. But I still want a real #3 guy to be secured somehow in the next 48 days.)

DannyB
12-31-2006, 04:50 PM
Bob says he wants to win now.
Wayne isnt doing anything to prove that.
Randy Johnson in a Reds uniform would change that for sure.

Jpup
12-31-2006, 05:18 PM
Bob says he wants to win now.
Wayne isnt doing anything to prove that.
Randy Johnson in a Reds uniform would change that for sure.

that's never going to happen. Randy Johnson will likely be a D-back before the week is over. to answer Freel's question, would I like Johnson for 16 million on the Reds? The answer is no. If the Reds had that kind of money, I could think a lot better ways to spend it.

It's also obvious that the Reds aren't wanting to win right now, that's lip service while they continue to be confused by the modern era.

Dracodave
12-31-2006, 05:30 PM
16 million right now gets us at the very least.

Tomo Ohka.
Craig Wilson.
Joel Piniero.


And pay roll flex for whatever trade you may need to make.

DannyB
12-31-2006, 06:11 PM
16 million right now gets us at the very least.

Tomo Ohka.
Craig Wilson.
Joel Piniero.


And pay roll flex for whatever trade you may need to make.

Oh I agree,but none of them would have the same effect as Randy Johnson.

Dracodave
12-31-2006, 06:18 PM
You're right about that but whats more effective?

Keeping prospects from a pretty dead farm system right now and building the team with the farm later?

Trading those prospects and praying Randy can lead us to a series this year, we win it all. Randy retires next year, we lose that pitcher and the prospects. We're right back to where we begin.

From what I know New York wants a pick of two of the Diamonds prospect, I have no idea if their A or B or C level prospects but my idea is it's still abit too much to be giving away for a pitcher who is soley on the decline.