PDA

View Full Version : Organizational Pitching Depth



mth123
12-29-2006, 10:31 PM
Looking through the rosters and trying to project the starting pitching and who ends-up where. I came up with the chart below. Not sure on some of the younger guys and I don't know if Richie Gardner, Chris Gruler or Steve Kelly are still around.





Spot # Majors AAA AA A+ A-
1 Aaron Harang Homer Bailey Johnny Cueto Travis Wood Josh Ravin
2 Bronson Arroyo Tom Shearn Sam Lecure Carlos Fisher Jordan Smith
3 Kyle Lohse Phil Dumatrait Camilo Vazquez Richie Gardner Phil Valiquette
4 Eric Milton Bob Livingston Eric Junge Daryl Thompson Anthony Gressick
5 Eliz. Ramirez Tyler Pelland Nick Moran Francisco Mateo Brandon Rice
6 Matt Belisle Steve Kelly Wes Wilkerson Chris Gruler Rafael Gonzalez


Anyone with more info? Are these the right levels for some of these guys in 2007?

corkedbat
12-29-2006, 10:46 PM
Any chance that Pauly starts a comeback this year or is he toast? Didn't know Gruler was still around.

mth123
12-29-2006, 10:53 PM
Any chance that Pauly starts a comeback this year or is he toast? Didn't know Gruler was still around.

I'm not sure about Gruler either but he did get 5 starts (15 Innings at a 3.60 ERA) in the Gulf Coast League in 2006. From everything I can tell, Pauly hasn't pitched since 2004. I assumed he was toast and left him off.

reds44
12-29-2006, 11:28 PM
Is this where you thik they will start 07 or end up?

mth123
12-29-2006, 11:40 PM
Is this where you thik they will start 07 or end up?

I'm guessing it's where they start out, but it isn't a perfect fit. There really aren't enough guys for the AA level and more than A+ and A- can hold. A guy like Cueto should probably spend a half year at A+ for example.

HokieRed
12-30-2006, 12:36 AM
Interesting to see this all laid out. Some guys on the lists, though, are probably meant for relief. Wilkerson and Moran have been used almost exclusively in relief for several seasons; even Junge may be used there. He pitched both as a starter and reliever last year and was a reliever during his very brief major league stints. Junge has spent the last two years in AAA so I'd expect him to be at Louisville if the FO thinks there's any chance at all he can help the Reds. Might well be that either Elizardo or Belisle is also at Louisville. So I'd expect Louisville to be Bailey, Lizard or Belisle, Dumatrait, Livingston, Junge, with Pelland spending a little more time at AA--unless of course both Ramirez and Belisle make the big club, which is perfectly possible.

HokieRed
12-30-2006, 12:48 AM
Some other names to consider. For some reason, James Avery never gets any respect, but I'd expect him to be at AA at the beginning of the season. His second half at Sarasota last year very closely parallels LeCure's, though when Avery is good, he seems to be more dominant. I'd also expect Daniel Guerrero to get some starts at Dayton, maybe later at Sarasota, and both Arneson and DeJesus to get some at Dayton, particularly Arneson based on last year.

Superdude
12-30-2006, 01:35 AM
Will Sean Watson be starting?

dougdirt
12-30-2006, 01:41 AM
No one really knows Superdude, guess we will find out next season.

mth123
12-30-2006, 06:07 AM
Good points HokieRed. Some responses.

- HokieRed is right about Wilkerson and Moran. I took them off.
- I left Avery and Guerrero off (oops!) but with Wilkerson and Moran in the pen there is some room.
- I assumed that Junge was picked-up for organizational filler and I am hoping here that Pelland starts at AAA so I stuck Junge where he seemed most needed. They could easily flip-flop.
- Not sure if Lizard and Belisle can be sent down. Right now they would seem to be needed in the majors.
- I'm guessing that Sean Watson will be taking a bee-line to the majors as a reliever so I didn't include him as a starter.
- Like I said, I'm still unsure of the younger guys. I added DeJesus and Arneson who I left off originally because they seemed to split time in the rotation and the bullpen. I'm sure that a lot of these guys will be swinging back and forth.

Updated chart:





Spot # Majors AAA AA A+ A-
1 Aaron Harang Homer Bailey Johnny Cueto Travis Wood Josh Ravin
2 Bronson Arroyo Tom Shearn Sam Lecure Carlos Fisher Jordan Smith
3 Kyle Lohse Phil Dumatrait Camilo Vazquez Phil Valiquette Daniel Guerrero/Jamie Arneson
4 Eric Milton Bob Livingston Eric Junge Daryl Thompson Anthony Gressick/Misael DeJesus
5 Eliz. Ramirez Tyler Pelland James Avery Francisco Mateo Brandon Rice
6 Matt Belisle Steve Kelly Richie Gardner Chris Gruler Rafael Gonzalez

Degenerate39
12-30-2006, 08:04 AM
I thought Homer would be in AA

mth123
12-30-2006, 09:42 AM
duplicate. Hit the wrong button.

mth123
12-30-2006, 09:45 AM
Taking this a step further, I've added bullpen spots. I may be missing some guys and might even have a guy or two who is no longer in the organization. Most of these bullpen guys will end-up being irrelevant IMO but I'm anal and want to try for a complete picture.

I'm even less sure about the Bullpen spots than the rotation spots, but I'll let you guys correct me and educate the board in the process. I'm guessing Shack is cut in spring.




Spot # Majors AAA AA A+ A-
1 Aaron Harang Homer Bailey Johnny Cueto Travis Wood Josh Ravin
2 Bronson Arroyo Tom Shearn Sam Lecure Carlos Fisher Jordan Smith
3 Kyle Lohse Phil Dumatrait Camilo Vazquez Phil Valiquette Daniel Guerrero/Jamie Arneson
4 Eric Milton Bob Livingston James Avery Daryl Thompson Anthony Gressick/Misael Dejesus
5 Eliz. Ramirez Tyler Pelland Eric Junge Francisco Mateo Brandon Rice
6 Matt Belisle Steve Kelly Richie Gardner Chris Gruler Rafael Gonzalez


Pen Spot
1 Mike Stanton David Schafer Sean Watson Robert Manual Derrick Lutz
2 David Weathers Jon Coutlangus C Bohorquez Damien Ursin Brandon Camardese
3 Todd Coffey Calvin Medlock Nick Moran R. Haltiwanger Lee Tabor
4 Bill Bray Carlos Guevera James Paduch Logan Ondrusek
5 Rheal Cormier Wes Wilkerson Brock Till Jon George
6 Gary Majewski Brad Salmon

Kc61
12-30-2006, 09:50 AM
Majewski was omitted.

Unless a reliever gets cut, Salmon presumably begins at AAA and gets an early call up when needed.

I seem to remember that Gruler cut short his 2006. Don't know if he is active any more.

mth123
12-30-2006, 09:58 AM
Majewski was omitted.

Unless a reliever gets cut, Salmon presumably begins at AAA and gets an early call up when needed.

I seem to remember that Gruler cut short his 2006. Don't know if he is active any more.

Oops. You're right. I didn't think I'd screw-up the major league roster. No place for Shack either. This makes these vet signings look even like more a waste of $ IMO.

buckeyenut
12-30-2006, 10:09 AM
What about the Rule 5 kid from Oakland? We assuming he doesn't stick?

mth123
12-30-2006, 10:11 AM
Majewski was omitted.

Unless a reliever gets cut, Salmon presumably begins at AAA and gets an early call up when needed.

I seem to remember that Gruler cut short his 2006. Don't know if he is active any more.

With Salmon in AAA, I'm guessing one of the AA guys will stay in AA to close. Medlock? That would probably make Watson closer at A+. It makes more sense that way anyway IMO. I'll update the table later.

mth123
12-30-2006, 10:12 AM
What about the Rule 5 kid from Oakland? We assuming he doesn't stick?

No room. Wk really wasted money on Weathers and Stanton and pushed these guys off the roster.

Kc61
12-30-2006, 10:22 AM
No room. Wk really wasted money on Weathers and Stanton and pushed these guys off the roster.

You'd rather have a Rule 5 guy than Weathers/Stanton? Not me. Rule 5 guys are long-shots and are kept only when there is roster spot to waste.

The Reds will likely use that extra spot for Josh Hamilton.

I don't know why Krivsky took a Rule 5 pitcher unless he plans a trade so he can own the guy outright and keep him in the minors.

I'm sure several of the Reds' AAA relievers will get chances this year. Remember last year when the Reds had numerous relievers pitch at one time or another. All teams get bullpen injuries, some guys will not pan out, there will be plenty of opportunities.

But in the late innings, I'd rather have Weathers or Stanton.

lollipopcurve
12-30-2006, 10:26 AM
Nice lists.

I think they keep Watson as a starter for now, probably at Dayton. He's got a good mix of pitches and a durable frame -- they may see him as a guy with a relatively fresh arm who can use innings to refine command of a starter's repertoire.

Apparently Lutz was impressive in instructional league. I wouldn't be surprised if he's closing games in Sarasota.

I also would not be surprised if Avery were back in high A looking to gain some consistency. He still would not be old for that league.

A question -- has anyone read anything about Valiquette? His extended absence makes me think he's a longshot to be in a rotation anywhere.

mth123
12-30-2006, 10:29 AM
You'd rather have a Rule 5 guy than Weathers/Stanton? Not me. Rule 5 guys are long-shots and are kept only when there is roster spot to waste.

The Reds will likely use that extra spot for Josh Hamilton.

I don't know why Krivsky took a Rule 5 pitcher unless he plans a trade so he can own the guy outright and keep him in the minors.

I'm sure several of the Reds' AAA relievers will get chances this year. Remember last year when the Reds had numerous relievers pitch at one time or another. All teams get bullpen injuries, some guys will not pan out, there will be plenty of opportunities.

But in the late innings, I'd rather have Weathers or Stanton.

I guess with all the candidates to round out the 12th spot (Burton, Shack, Salmon, Coutlangus, even Shearn, or Kelly), I'd rather have Octavio Dotel to close and one of those guys at the bottom of the staff. Better composition of the team than spendng the same $ on Weathers and Stanton.

Signing Stanton could still be ok if Cormier is dumped to recoup the $ and roster spot (Stanton is a slight upgrade from Cormier). Signing Weathers was a big waste IMO. I'd rather have Salmon.

Tom Servo
12-30-2006, 11:33 AM
Not to try to change the subject of this thread but I can't believe people bemoan not getting Octavio Dotel. He can throw hard, I'll give you that. But I saw a lot of his relief apperances last year, and he was horrific. He could barely throw strikes and was basically Weathers and Majewski during their bad periods combined but worse. Come Opening Day if we have a one run lead in the 9th I'd send Weathers or Stanton out for the save every day of the week over Dotel.

mth123
12-30-2006, 11:52 AM
Not to try to change the subject of this thread but I can't believe people bemoan not getting Octavio Dotel. He can throw hard, I'll give you that. But I saw a lot of his relief apperances last year, and he was horrific. He could barely throw strikes and was basically Weathers and Majewski during their bad periods combined but worse. Come Opening Day if we have a one run lead in the 9th I'd send Weathers or Stanton out for the save every day of the week over Dotel.

Actually my first choice would have been to not sign any relief pitchers, dump Lohse and pool all that money and get a good number 3 starter. even if it means trading a Wood and Freel and taking on a contract to do it.

But Dotel was in the first year back from surgery. There are always kinks then. Many pitchers come all the way back in year 2. If so, Dotel would be much preferred over a "BABIP lucky probably not to be repeated" Weathers or an "aging not much different from Bray or Cormier" Stanton. Dotel (or something he is traded for) could actually be an asset when the team is ready to be good again.

Betterread
12-30-2006, 12:18 PM
I think they keep Watson as a starter for now, probably at Dayton. He's got a good mix of pitches and a durable frame -- they may see him as a guy with a relatively fresh arm who can use innings to refine command of a starter's repertoire.
Apparently Lutz was impressive in instructional league. I wouldn't be surprised if he's closing games in Sarasota.
I also would not be surprised if Avery were back in high A looking to gain some consistency. He still would not be old for that league.
A question -- has anyone read anything about Valiquette? His extended absence makes me think he's a longshot to be in a rotation anywhere.

good points.
I think Watson is perceived as a ML reliever prospect - which raises the question how do you handle his development? Do you let him start games - and if so, for 3 innings with a strict pitch count, or do you allow him more flexibility. I would let him get acclimated in A ball by pitching him every few days (2-3) in the innings between the starters (they usually only go 5-6 innings at the beginning of the year) and the closer.

That's good news on Lutz - along with Watson and Arneson, we have some
hope for relief from the 2006 draft.
I am still holding on to the hope that Terrell Young will harness his power stuff in a relief role - I see him starting in Dayton for 2007. I am less hopeful for Valiquette - the Reds really mis-handled his development in my opinion. Starting his minor league career in Dayton, when his breaking pitch was so rough, did not make sense to me.

Kc61
12-30-2006, 01:35 PM
Terrell Young closed at Billings and did well. Got hit around in short stint at Dayton.

Should definitely be listed for the Dayton bullpen.

mth123
12-30-2006, 01:42 PM
Terrell Young closed at Billings and did well. Got hit around in short stint at Dayton.

Should definitely be listed for the Dayton bullpen.

Thanks. I'll add him.

KoryMac5
12-30-2006, 02:08 PM
Gruler was shut down in August after a setback with his shoulder, no further news on his condition or what the setback was. Gardener was shut down so he would be ready for the instuctional league. I believe his mom posts on here from time to time so I hope that he is doing well.

mth123
12-30-2006, 02:41 PM
Gruler was shut down in August after a setback with his shoulder, no further news on his condition or what the setback was. Gardener was shut down so he would be ready for the instuctional league. I believe his mom posts on here from time to time so I hope that he is doing well..

Thanks. They are both long, long shots. I know Gardner had a torn labrum. Gruler had tears in his rotator cuff and labrum (same injury as Mark Mulder for reference). I saw they both put up some stats last year so I stuck them on the list.

Topcat
12-31-2006, 08:21 AM
Apparently Lutz was impressive in instructional league. I wouldn't be surprised if he's closing games in Sarasota.



Who ever said that I salute you :beerme: . Lutz is my "adopted boy" I love his game and will keep his progress updates going till he is no longer a Red active on this Board.


Lutz, Lutz, Lutz!:D

mth123
12-31-2006, 08:31 AM
Updated chart based on comments so far. Still a lot of uncertainty obviously.




Spot # Majors AAA AA A+ A-
1 Aaron Harang Homer Bailey Johnny Cueto Travis Wood Josh Ravin
2 Bronson Arroyo Tom Shearn Sam Lecure Carlos Fisher Jordan Smith
3 Kyle Lohse Phil Dumatrait Camilo Vazquez Phil Valiquette Daniel Guerrero/Jamie Arneson
4 Eric Milton Bob Livingston James Avery Daryl Thompson Anthony Gressick/Misael Dejesus
5 Eliz. Ramirez Tyler Pelland Eric Junge Francisco Mateo Brandon Rice
6 Matt Belisle Steve Kelly Richie Gardner Chris Gruler Rafael Gonzalez


Pen Spot
1 Mike Stanton David Schafer Calvin Medlock Sean Watson Derrick Lutz
2 David Weathers Jon Coutlangus C. Bohorquez Robert Manual Brandon Camardese
3 Todd Coffey Brad Salmon Nick Moran Damien Ursin Lee Tabor
4 Bill Bray Carlos Guevera James Paduch R. Haltiwanger Terrell Young
5 Rheal Cormier Wes Wilkerson Brock Till Logan Ondrusek
6 Gary Majewski Jon George

lollipopcurve
12-31-2006, 12:54 PM
Another possible starter is Wirfin Obispo. He's been touted as having an outstanding arm, and he performed very well in the Dominican Summer League (couldn't get stateside because of visa problems). I believe he'll be 22 this coming year. My guess is that he'll be in the rotation in Dayton and will move up (a la Cueto) if he overmatches hitters.

mth123
12-31-2006, 01:12 PM
Another possible starter is Wirfin Obispo. He's been touted as having an outstanding arm, and he performed very well in the Dominican Summer League (couldn't get stateside because of visa problems). I believe he'll be 22 this coming year. My guess is that he'll be in the rotation in Dayton and will move up (a la Cueto) if he overmatches hitters.

I thought of him but I thought he was younger and assumed he'd be in rookie ball. Dayton could be crowded. Might need to go back to tandem starters just to fit 'em all in. It doesn't seem like any will be ready for Sarasota or Chattanooga where they may be needed to fill out the rotation. I've listed Thompson and Valiquette at A+ but they should probably start at Dayton as well.

Could Ravin be ready for A+ already?

dougdirt
12-31-2006, 01:31 PM
No, Ravin will not be ready for A+ next year. He needs to work on his control, and most HS pitchers usually spend all of their first full season in low A, just to get used to professional baseball.

Kc61
12-31-2006, 07:32 PM
Nicholas Wandless and Adam Pointer pitched at GCL last year. Both did well and could be candidates for Dayton, I would think. You might consider adding them.

Wandless was a 36th pick last year. At age 22 (now 23) he went to GCL. Since he is a college type, a bit older, I would expect him to try Dayton next year.

Pointer is 22, was drafted 22nd last year, did well at GCL, then went to Billings for a few innings. My guess is they will try him at Dayton.

Another possibilty is Josh Roenicke who pitched relief at both Rookie levels for the Reds. Wouldn't be surprised if he is in the Dayton bullpen. 10th pick from UCLA.

baseballmom
01-01-2007, 04:17 AM
Richie is doing great and we are all looking forward to the 2007 baseball season.

Gallen5862
01-01-2007, 02:20 PM
Thanks for the update Baseballmom.

mth123
01-01-2007, 07:18 PM
Updated again based on comments. Lotta guys at Dayton.




Spot # Majors AAA AA A+ A-
1 Aaron Harang Homer Bailey Johnny Cueto Travis Wood Josh Ravin
2 Bronson Arroyo Tom Shearn Sam Lecure Carlos Fisher Jordan Smith/Winfrin Obispo
3 Kyle Lohse Phil Dumatrait Camilo Vazquez Phil Valiquette Daniel Guerrero/Jamie Arneson
4 Eric Milton Bob Livingston James Avery Daryl Thompson Anthony Gressick/Misael Dejesus
5 Eliz. Ramirez Tyler Pelland Eric Junge Francisco Mateo Brandon Rice/Nick Wandless
6 Matt Belisle Steve Kelly Richie Gardner Chris Gruler Rafael Gonzalez/Adam Pointer


Pen Spot
1 Mike Stanton David Schafer Calvin Medlock Sean Watson Derrick Lutz
2 David Weathers Jon Coutlangus C. Bohorquez Robert Manual Brandon Camardese
3 Todd Coffey Brad Salmon Nick Moran Damien Ursin Lee Tabor
4 Bill Bray Carlos Guevera James Paduch R. Haltiwanger Terrell Young
5 Rheal Cormier Wes Wilkerson Brock Till Logan Ondrusek Josh Roenicke
6 Gary Majewski Jon George
7 Brian Shackelford
8 Jared Burton

Kc61
01-01-2007, 11:55 PM
This is a great chart. You wonder who will emerge and who will fall off.

I hope mth 123 or others can find a way to use this to follow the progress of pitchers in the organization during next season. Perhaps it can be updated every few weeks to show changes -- and also to reflect what happened to guys who have changed status. For example, notations can be made to names of pitchers who have been promoted, demoted, on injured list, traded, waived, recently acquired, etc.

I don't know exactly how it should be done, but following the organization's pitchers is obviously key to evaluating progress in 2007.

Thanks for putting this together.

HokieRed
01-02-2007, 12:41 AM
Question: Does anybody know anything about the status of Jose Rojas, who pitched tremendously in relief last year for Dayton. He's listed as pitching in the Venezuelan winter league but is not identified as being with the Reds as his parent club. If he's with the club, he will likely be in the bullpen in Sarasota.

mth123
01-02-2007, 07:01 AM
Question: Does anybody know anything about the status of Jose Rojas, who pitched tremendously in relief last year for Dayton. He's listed as pitching in the Venezuelan winter league but is not identified as being with the Reds as his parent club. If he's with the club, he will likely be in the bullpen in Sarasota.

He was a 23 year old pitching in the Rookie League. He first started pitching professionally in 1999 with the Dodgers rookie league. He made it as high as AA in 2002 and again in 2004. Doesn't sound real promising but I don't see that he has been released. I'll add him to Sarasota.

TRF
01-03-2007, 05:43 PM
Curious as to why you have Calvin Medlock repeating AA. He clearly has nothing left to prove there. He'll be in Louisville's pen, though he should be in the rotation.

mth123
01-03-2007, 07:59 PM
Curious as to why you have Calvin Medlock repeating AA. He clearly has nothing left to prove there. He'll be in Louisville's pen, though he should be in the rotation.

Just guessing that maybe the Reds want him to close. As I did this I found that there are too many guys for the majors/AAA and Too Many for A-, but not really enough in between. If they want him to actually get some closing experience, it doesn't look like AA has anyone else unless Watson jumps to AA (my initial thought).

I could be way off.

mth123
01-05-2007, 06:55 AM
Updated with 1 small change.





Spot # Majors AAA AA A+ A-
1 Aaron Harang Homer Bailey Johnny Cueto Travis Wood Josh Ravin
2 Bronson Arroyo Tom Shearn Sam Lecure Carlos Fisher Jordan Smith/Winfrin Obispo
3 Kyle Lohse Phil Dumatrait Camilo Vazquez Phil Valiquette Daniel Guerrero/Jamie Arneson
4 Eric Milton Bob Livingston James Avery Daryl Thompson Anthony Gressick/Misael Dejesus
5 Eliz. Ramirez Tyler Pelland Eric Junge Francisco Mateo Brandon Rice/Nick Wandless
6 Matt Belisle Steve Kelly Richie Gardner Chris Gruler Rafael Gonzalez/Adam Pointer


Pen Spot
1 Mike Stanton David Shafer Calvin Medlock Sean Watson Derrick Lutz
2 David Weathers Jon Coutlangus C. Bohorquez Robert Manual Brandon Camardese
3 Todd Coffey Brad Salmon Nick Moran Damien Ursin Lee Tabor
4 Bill Bray Carlos Guevera James Paduch R. Haltiwanger Terrell Young
5 Rheal Cormier Wes Wilkerson Brock Till Logan Ondrusek Josh Roenicke
6 Gary Majewski Jon George
7 Brian Shackelford Jose Rojas
8 Jared Burton

jcummins100
01-06-2007, 07:30 PM
I know that Rick Asadoorian has been moved from the field to the bullpen. I believe it is rumored that he will start in either A+ or AA.

JaxRed
01-06-2007, 07:52 PM
Do you mind mind saying how you know? It's a smart move for him, he certainly wasn't going anywhere as an OF, and he has a great arm. Last I heard, he wasn't interested.

dougdirt
01-07-2007, 02:25 AM
That is interesting. He pitched in 2 games last year, and after each game he had said it wasnt a move he was willing to make at the time....

lollipopcurve
01-07-2007, 10:19 AM
I know that Rick Asadoorian has been moved from the field to the bullpen. I believe it is rumored that he will start in either A+ or AA.

glad to hear this -- supposedly he's got a very live fastball, but not sure what else

camisadelgolf
01-07-2007, 06:27 PM
I don't know why I notice this stuff, but I do. Here are a few spelling corrections:

David Shafer
Carlos Guevara
Robert Manuel
Damian Ursin
Derrik Lutz



Also, in case you're wondering how all these players were acquired, here you go:

trade = 13
rule V = 1
free agent = 3
waivers = 2
minor league free agent = 4
non-drafted free agent = 6
minor league rule V = 2
'98 draft = 1
'99 draft = 1
'00 draft = 0
'01 draft = 2
'02 draft = 4
'03 draft = 5
'04 draft = 4
'05 draft = 7
'06 draft = 10

Kc61
01-08-2007, 01:13 PM
Not to get too picky, but I can't see Valiquette at High A ball next year. Guy had just terrible numbers at Dayton. Would think Dan Guerrero or Rafael Gonzalez would be more likely to go to Sarasota.

Also, looking at the list of spring invitees, Reds have Michael Gosling, Victor Santos and lefty Jason Kershner, apparently signed for AAA or below.

Superdude
01-08-2007, 05:11 PM
I definitely called the Asadoorian thing last year. Considering he can throw mid 90's and never once showed the slightest ability to swing the bat, this move should have been made a long time ago. The dude dominates too. He's striking out a batter per inning so far in his 8 inning pitching career. The sky's the limit!

I wonder where he'll start. Does he have a breaking pitch yet?

JaxRed
01-08-2007, 05:32 PM
"I definitely called the Asadoorian thing last year. "


So did everyone who saw the boxscore

camisadelgolf
01-08-2007, 06:00 PM
I totally called Pujols hitting more than ten homeruns this year.

Superdude
01-08-2007, 08:17 PM
I totally called Zach Duke winning 20 games this year...dangit. :cry:

Redman15
01-08-2007, 08:18 PM
Reds need a closer. What do you think about Chad Cordero from the Nationals? Which young players would you be willing to part with?

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070108&content_id=1775211&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

mth123
01-09-2007, 07:12 AM
Updated. Fixed spelling I hope. Added Kershner, Santos and Asadoorian. I think that the team has too many guys for AAA and too many for A-. There aren't really enough for A+ or AA IMO. I think a few will be released in spring training. As for Valiquette's placement. I agree that A- would be better than A+. There were so many at A- I had to pick some one and Valiquette has had more time above rookie ball. Don't know really.




Spot # Majors AAA AA A+ A-
1 Aaron Harang Homer Bailey Johnny Cueto Travis Wood Josh Ravin
2 Bronson Arroyo Tom Shearn Sam Lecure Carlos Fisher Jordan Smith/Winfrin Obispo
3 Kyle Lohse Phil Dumatrait Camilo Vazquez Phil Valiquette Daniel Guerrero/Jamie Arneson
4 Eric Milton Victor Santos James Avery Daryl Thompson Anthony Gressick/Misael Dejesus
5 Eliz. Ramirez Tyler Pelland Eric Junge Francisco Mateo Brandon Rice/Nick Wandless
6 Matt Belisle Steve Kelly Bob Livingston Chris Gruler Rafael Gonzalez/Adam Pointer


Pen Spot
1 Mike Stanton David Shafer Calvin Medlock Sean Watson Derrik Lutz
2 David Weathers Jon Coutlangus C. Bohorquez Robert Manuel Brandon Camardese
3 Todd Coffey Brad Salmon Nick Moran Damian Ursin Lee Tabor
4 Bill Bray Carlos Guevara James Paduch R. Haltiwanger Terrell Young
5 Rheal Cormier Wes Wilkerson Brock Till Logan Ondrusek Josh Roenicke
6 Gary Majewski Jason Kershner R. Asadoorian Jon George Richie Gardner
7 Brian Shackelford Jose Rojas
8 Jared Burton

mth123
01-11-2007, 05:49 AM
Another update. Removed Haltiwanger.




Spot # Majors AAA AA A+ A-
1 Aaron Harang Homer Bailey Johnny Cueto Travis Wood Josh Ravin
2 Bronson Arroyo Tom Shearn Sam Lecure Carlos Fisher Jordan Smith/Winfrin Obispo
3 Kyle Lohse Phil Dumatrait Camilo Vazquez Phil Valiquette Daniel Guerrero/Jamie Arneson
4 Eric Milton Victor Santos James Avery Daryl Thompson Anthony Gressick/Misael Dejesus
5 Eliz. Ramirez Tyler Pelland Eric Junge Francisco Mateo Brandon Rice/Nick Wandless
6 Matt Belisle Steve Kelly Bob Livingston Chris Gruler Rafael Gonzalez/Adam Pointer


Pen Spot
1 Mike Stanton David Shafer Calvin Medlock Sean Watson Derrik Lutz
2 David Weathers Jon Coutlangus C. Bohorquez Robert Manuel Brandon Camardese
3 Todd Coffey Brad Salmon Nick Moran Damian Ursin Lee Tabor
4 Bill Bray Carlos Guevara James Paduch Jose Rojas Terrell Young
5 Rheal Cormier Wes Wilkerson Brock Till Logan Ondrusek Josh Roenicke
6 Gary Majewski Jason Kershner R. Asadoorian Jon George Richie Gardner
7 Brian Shackelford
8 Jared Burton

lollipopcurve
01-11-2007, 10:48 AM
Jon George is out of the organization.

camisadelgolf
01-11-2007, 01:43 PM
Jon George is out of the organization.

Yes, he was traded to the Rockies for nothing--err, I mean, future considerations.

jcummins100
01-14-2007, 11:58 PM
The reason i know Asadoorian has made the move is because i talk to him about once a week. We grew up together. Then i moved to Ohio after our soph. year in high school. The reason Rick, which his real name in Eric, waited to make the move is because he didnt want to blow out his arm at the age of 20 trying to work his way up. From what he has told me he is currently throwing a fastball both 2 seam and 4 seam, splitter, change up, and slider. From what he has said he pitched in the fall instructional league and topped out at around 98. Rick did pitch in high school he was a closer topping out at around 93. I dont really know how is other pitches are and he never says either way. Which means nothing considering he says his fastball is "not bad". 98 with movement is pretty impressive in my opinion.

DoogMinAmo
01-15-2007, 12:18 AM
The reason i know Asadoorian has made the move is because i talk to him about once a week. We grew up together. Then i moved to Ohio after our soph. year in high school. The reason Rick, which his real name in Eric, waited to make the move is because he didnt want to blow out his arm at the age of 20 trying to work his way up. From what he has told me he is currently throwing a fastball both 2 seam and 4 seam, splitter, change up, and slider. From what he has said he pitched in the fall instructional league and topped out at around 98. Rick did pitch in high school he was a closer topping out at around 93. I dont really know how is other pitches are and he never says either way. Which means nothing considering he says his fastball is "not bad". 98 with movement is pretty impressive in my opinion.

Great info there, thanks for posting it. First off, which seamer is he throwing 98? True, 98 is a nice fastball, the questions are the control and movement. Have you seen it personally? It has been said that when throwers add mph, the ball tends to flatten out, and taking some off actually increases control and spin.

Truth is, I wouldn't mind it if he fell back down to 93-94 if it meant nasty movement and more control. Give him a change up to compliment it, and he has all he needs. The splitter and slider are just a bonus.

fargo55
01-15-2007, 12:32 AM
Gruler has had multiple throwing arm surgeries. He left the GCL Reds in mid-August and is not expected back.

jcummins100
01-15-2007, 02:02 AM
Great info there, thanks for posting it. First off, which seamer is he throwing 98? True, 98 is a nice fastball, the questions are the control and movement. Have you seen it personally? It has been said that when throwers add mph, the ball tends to flatten out, and taking some off actually increases control and spin.

Truth is, I wouldn't mind it if he fell back down to 93-94 if it meant nasty movement and more control. Give him a change up to compliment it, and he has all he needs. The splitter and slider are just a bonus.

I will try and find out the answers to those questions. Rick has never been the type of person to talk about things if they were going well. I know that they wanted him to try and see how hard he could throw which was 98, even then he said he thought he might be holding back. Rick had shoulder surgery a few years ago i dont think it was anything to bad, but shoulder surgery is never a good thing now that he has moved to pitching. He did say that it still moved alittle at 98 but moved more between 93-95. Again how much i will have to find out. I can only imagine he will improve because his mechanics havent been touched since his senior year. Even then they just told him to throw as hard as he could, which he did and most kids couldnt touch it. Also i think his splitter is actually his second pitch. The reds pitching coaches will need to work with him on the change. I dont know though, for all i know is he has a good change as well.

mth123
01-16-2007, 05:59 AM
Added Wilson, Removed George:




Spot # Majors AAA AA A+ A-
1 Aaron Harang Homer Bailey Johnny Cueto Travis Wood Josh Ravin
2 Bronson Arroyo Tom Shearn Sam Lecure Carlos Fisher Jordan Smith/Winfrin Obispo
3 Kyle Lohse Phil Dumatrait Camilo Vazquez Phil Valiquette Jamie Arneson
4 Eric Milton Victor Santos James Avery Daryl Thompson Anthony Gressick/Misael Dejesus
5 Eliz. Ramirez Tyler Pelland Eric Junge Francisco Mateo Brandon Rice/Nick Wandless
6 Matt Belisle Steve Kelly Bob Livingston D. Guerrero Rafael Gonzalez/Adam Pointer


Pen Spot
1 Mike Stanton David Shafer Calvin Medlock Sean Watson Derrik Lutz
2 David Weathers Jon Coutlangus C. Bohorquez Robert Manuel Brandon Camardese
3 Todd Coffey Brad Salmon Nick Moran Damian Ursin Lee Tabor
4 Bill Bray Carlos Guevara James Paduch Jose Rojas Terrell Young
5 Rheal Cormier Wes Wilkerson Brock Till Logan Ondrusek Josh Roenicke
6 Gary Majewski Jason Kershner R. Asadoorian Richie Gardner
7 B. Shackelford Paul Wilson Chris Gruler
8 Jared Burton

mth123
01-21-2007, 10:25 AM
I updated this a bit and added some omissions. Michael Gosling is back I believe and I stuck him at AAA. I also added a couple columns for guys on Rehab and others from the 2006 draft who had no spot. Two guys who are interesting are Travis Webb and Jeremy Burchett who both were among the reds top 10 picks.




Spot # Majors AAA AA A+ A- Rehab/Others Rehab/Others
1 Aaron Harang Homer Bailey Johnny Cueto Travis Wood Josh Ravin Paul Wilson Daniel Donaldson
2 Bronson Arroyo Tom Shearn Sam Lecure Carlos Fisher Jordan Smith Richie Gardner Dane Mason
3 Kyle Lohse Phil Dumatrait Camilo Vazquez Rafael Gonzalez Jamie Arneson Chris Gruler Christopher White
4 Eric Milton Victor Santos James Avery Daryl Thompson Brandon Rice T. Pauly
5 Eliz. Ramirez Tyler Pelland Eric Junge Winfrin Obispo Travis Webb R. Asadoorian
6 Matt Belisle Steve Kelly D. Guerrero A. Gressick Brandon Alford


Pen Spot
1 Mike Stanton David Shafer Calvin Medlock Sean Watson Derrik Lutz E. Guardado Eric Schaler
2 David Weathers Jon Coutlangus C. Bohorquez Robert Manuel Terrell Young David Wilson Matt Clark
3 Todd Coffey Brad Salmon Nick Moran Damian Ursin Lee Tabor Daniel Rincon Ryan Williams
4 Bill Bray Carlos Guevara James Paduch Jose Rojas Josh Roenicke Kevin Gunter Greg Dicso
5 Rheal Cormier Wes Wilkerson Brock Till Logan Ondrusek Misael Dejesus Jarred Leach R. Medina
6 Gary Majewski Jason Kershner Fr. Mateo B. Camardese Jeremy Burchett Robert Nickols
7 B. Shackelford Mike Gosling Phil Valiquette Adam Pointer Justin Newman
8 Jared Burton Bob Livingston Nick Wandless Andrew Yount

redsmetz
01-21-2007, 11:38 AM
I don't know why Krivsky took a Rule 5 pitcher unless he plans a trade so he can own the guy outright and keep him in the minors.


It's not out of the realm of possibility that we flip him to someone with roster room to keep in in the Majors all year. I think that's a long shot, but still a possibility. But you're right, we could try to work a trade with Oakland too.

mth123
02-01-2007, 09:45 PM
Updated with recent signings and trades. For a guy who wants prospects in AAA, Krivsky seems to have more Journeyman vets than AAA can hold and I wonder if Bailey won't start at AA now.




Spot # Majors AAA AA A+ A- Rehab/Others Rehab/Others
1 Aaron Harang Homer Bailey Johnny Cueto Travis Wood Josh Ravin Paul Wilson Daniel Donaldson
2 Bronson Arroyo Tom Shearn Sam Lecure Carlos Fisher Jordan Smith Richie Gardner Dane Mason
3 Kyle Lohse Phil Dumatrait Camilo Vazquez Rafael Gonzalez Jamie Arneson Eliz. Ramirez Christopher White
4 Eric Milton Victor Santos James Avery Daryl Thompson Brandon Rice T. Pauly
5 Kirk Saarloos Tyler Pelland Eric Junge Winfrin Obispo Travis Webb R. Asadoorian
6 Matt Belisle Steve Kelly Luke Lockwood D. Guerrero A. Gressick Brandon Alford


Pen Spot
1 Mike Stanton Brad Salmon Calvin Medlock Sean Watson Derrik Lutz E. Guardado Eric Schaler
2 David Weathers Jon Coutlangus C. Bohorquez Robert Manuel Terrell Young David Wilson Matt Clark
3 Todd Coffey Mike Bumatay Nick Moran Damian Ursin Lee Tabor Daniel Rincon Ryan Williams
4 Bill Bray Carlos Guevara James Paduch Jose Rojas Josh Roenicke Kevin Gunter Greg Dicso
5 Rheal Cormier Wes Wilkerson Brock Till Logan Ondrusek Misael Dejesus Jarred Leach R. Medina
6 Gary Majewski Brian Meadows Fr. Mateo B. Camardese Jeremy Burchett Robert Nickols
7 B. Shackelford Michael Gosling Mike Flannery Phil Valiquette Adam Pointer Justin Newman
8 Jared Burton Bob Livingston Jason Kershner Nick Wandless Andrew Yount

dougdirt
02-02-2007, 12:39 AM
MTH, honestly I would take Obispo off the list until he gets here....becuase from the sounds of it, he probably wont ever get here.

TStuck
02-02-2007, 02:16 PM
It's not out of the realm of possibility that we flip him to someone with roster room to keep in in the Majors all year. I think that's a long shot, but still a possibility. But you're right, we could try to work a trade with Oakland too.

Since the Saarloos trade included a PTBNL for each team, Burton could well be the PTBNL coming to the Reds from the A's if he pitches well in Spring Training. This would allow him to be kept at AAA.

mth123
02-17-2007, 05:38 AM
I've added Ligtenberg and thought I would bump this up as pitchers report for spring training. I'm guessing: 1.) Saarloos wins the 5th starter spot, 2.) Burton becomes the PTBNL in the Saarloos deal and goes to AAA, 3.) Ramirez starts on the DL as he comes back from off-season surgery 4.) Belisle is the long reliever, 5.) Shackelford and Dumatrait are exposed to waivers and 6.) a glut of veteran Non-Roster guys will be thinned as some choose free agency over AAA. Given the numbers in camp with the Reds, I have to wonder if Bailey won't start out in AA with Santos, Livingston, Dumatrait, Shearn, Kelly, Gosling, Meadows, etc eating up the spots at AAA. It will be interesting to see where the minor leaguers end-up, who washes out and if anyone emerges as some one to watch. I imagine a lot of the younger guys start in extended spring training and go to short season leagues later on with some being cut as this year's draft choices start to sign and take their spots.




Spot # Majors AAA AA A+ A- Rehab/Others Rehab/Others
1 Aaron Harang Homer Bailey Johnny Cueto Travis Wood Josh Ravin Paul Wilson Daniel Donaldson
2 Bronson Arroyo Tom Shearn Sam Lecure Carlos Fisher Jordan Smith Richie Gardner Dane Mason
3 Kyle Lohse Phil Dumatrait Camilo Vazquez Rafael Gonzalez Jamie Arneson Eliz. Ramirez Christopher White
4 Eric Milton Victor Santos James Avery Daryl Thompson Brandon Rice T. Pauly Winfrin Obispo
5 Kirk Saarloos Tyler Pelland Eric Junge D. Guerrero Travis Webb R. Asadoorian Phil Valiquette
6 Matt Belisle Steve Kelly Mike Bumatay Luke Lockwood A. Gressick Brandon Alford


Pen Spot
1 Mike Stanton Brad Salmon Calvin Medlock Sean Watson Derrik Lutz E. Guardado Eric Schaler
2 David Weathers Jon Coutlangus C. Bohorquez Robert Manuel Terrell Young David Wilson Matt Clark
3 Todd Coffey K. Ligtenberg Nick Moran Damian Ursin Lee Tabor Daniel Rincon Ryan Williams
4 Bill Bray Carlos Guevara James Paduch Jose Rojas Josh Roenicke Kevin Gunter Greg Dicso
5 Rheal Cormier Wes Wilkerson Brock Till Logan Ondrusek Misael Dejesus Jarred Leach
6 Gary Majewski Brian Meadows Fr. Mateo B. Camardese Jeremy Burchett Robert Nickols
7 B. Shackelford Michael Gosling B. O'Connor R. Medina Adam Pointer Justin Newman
8 Jared Burton Bob Livingston Jason Kershner Mike Flannery Nick Wandless Andrew Yount

Ehashey
02-27-2007, 06:54 AM
Hey Cummins, Been a long time bud. its Ed hashey back from the old days hope all is well and say hello to Rick for me and wish him well this year.