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BuckeyeRedleg
12-31-2006, 10:52 AM
http://www.columbusdispatch.com/sports-story.php?story=dispatch/2006/12/31/20061231-G1-03.html

Aggressive Reds GM

Cincinnati Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky took a moment in mid-December to look at the team’s 40-man roster and even he was surprised to see the number of new names.

Twenty of the players listed were not in the organization when the team’s new owner, Bob Castellini, hired Krivsky on Feb. 8 to alter the direction of the franchise.

Looking back, Krivsky can scarcely remember the first weeks on the job.

"It’s kind of unusual to get a job that late," he said. "I had a week before the start of spring training, and Adam Dunn’s arbitration hearing was coming up. I had a lot on my plate. I don’t expect that kind of turnover this year with a full year on the job."

Still, a whirlwind of change has followed his arrival with 45 players coming through the door. Some deals have drawn universal praise —think pitcher Bronson Arroyo and second baseman Brandon Phillips.

Others haven’t — the trade of shortstop Felipe Lopez and right fielder Austin Kearns to the Washington Nationals in July continues to raise hackles.

"I knew it was going to be a controversial trade," Krivsky said. "The state of our bullpen needed to be addressed or we were going to be in trouble. And something that is overlooked is that the trade opened a spot (in right field) for Ryan Freel to play. Where else was he going to play? "

The Reds filed a grievance with Major League Baseball because pitcher Gary Majewski arrived from the Nationals with a sore right shoulder. That remains in limbo. But he is healthy now, Krivsky said, and expected to be an integral part of the ’07 bullpen.

The organizational overhaul is ongoing, with youngsters such as pitcher Homer Bailey and outfielders Jay Bruce and Drew Stubbs rising through the minor-league system.

"It takes time," Krivsky said. "The goal is to have a couple of guys ready to help the major-league club every year. You want to start a steady stream of guys. The Minnesota Twins, where I came from, are the model for that.

"We want to get a little younger at every level. You don’t want older guys impeding the progress of younger players. We want to be considered the kind of organization that contends every year."

— Jim Massie

jmassie@dispatch.com

edabbs44
12-31-2006, 11:03 AM
Others haven’t — the trade of shortstop Felipe Lopez and right fielder Austin Kearns to the Washington Nationals in July continues to raise hackles.

"I knew it was going to be a controversial trade," Krivsky said. "The state of our bullpen needed to be addressed or we were going to be in trouble. And something that is overlooked is that the trade opened a spot (in right field) for Ryan Freel to play. Where else was he going to play? "

Alright, WK is now a liar. After "the trade", he said it was Deno's time. Way to change your story.


The eight-player deal that sent RF Austin Kearns to Washington represents an opportunity for Chris Denorfia, who was called up from Triple-A Louisville to fill the roster spot. Denorfia will get a chance to be the primary right fielder. "It's his time," GM Wayne Krivsky said. "We think he's ready."

Each day, I dislike WK more and more.

Tom Servo
12-31-2006, 11:19 AM
Cincinnati Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky took a moment in mid-December to look at the team's 40-man roster and even he was surprised to see the number of new names.

"Chad Moeller!? What the hell was I smoking?"

Dracodave
12-31-2006, 11:31 AM
"Chad Moeller!? What the hell was I smoking?"

You know this leads me to believe that
The recent resignations have forced Krivisky to really go "Wow I did mess up big time."
try to save some face with using Freel as the every day player.
He needs to get younger cause we're starting to resemble the Giants here
Is Bob now pressuring him to get younger and get a better team cause everyone else is shelling out cash?
That Krivisky probably has no idea what he's doing anymore. And who are the people on the roster that he doesn't like? Half the people there are people he's signed or traded for that probably wont help next year

Sean_CaseyRules
12-31-2006, 12:12 PM
I came from, are the model for that.

"We want to get a little younger at every level. You donít want older guys impeding the progress of younger players. We want to be considered the kind of organization that contends every year."
jmassie@dispatch.com

What's with conine then?

mth123
12-31-2006, 12:20 PM
What's with conine then?

Easy. There was stated need for a RH 1B and Conine was an obvious odd man out in Philly when Werth signed. WK picks-up guys no one else wants to fill his needs because its easier than actual creativity. Good thing a few of them worked out last year.

Patrick Bateman
12-31-2006, 12:50 PM
What's with conine then?

None of the "old guys" that Krivsky signed are impeding the progress of younger players. It's not like the minor league system is bursting with young talent just waiting to crack the major league line-up.

The Reds have basically zero major league ready guys. The band-aids picked up in the off-season will serve the purpose of playing for a season or two until some of the prospects are ready. We need the prospects first though.

jojo
12-31-2006, 12:57 PM
Alright, WK is now a liar. After "the trade", he said it was Deno's time. Way to change your story.



Each day, I dislike WK more and more.

c'mon......he also said a bonus of the trade was Clayton's defense and that the trade definitively demonstrated that the Reds were willing to take on payroll..... Liar, liar, pants on fire. The trade was more about addressing payroll issues for this off season than addressing defense or roster issues....

This was a preemptive salary dump sold to fans as a win now/improve-the-defense move and masquerading to baseball pundits as one of the dumbest trades of the season....

Without even debating the wisdom of dumping Lopez (smart) and Kearns (dumb) or how effectively they are using the *payroll flexibility* gained, lets just call a spade a spade. What bugs me the most is the dishonest spin,,,, if you're pissing on my head, I'd prefer an honest explanation rather than an attempt to convince me its raining....

Here's the commitments to payroll in '07 resulting from this trade:

Nats: Lopez+Kearns in '07: $8-9M (guesstimate-both are arb eligible and will get a raise.... it's undetermined what the Nats will try to do with contracts)

Reds: Bray+Maj in '07: around $800K

Gone: Clayton and Harris (very likely).

mth123
12-31-2006, 01:04 PM
c'mon......he also said a bonus of the trade was Clayton's defense and that the trade definitively demonstrated that the Reds were willing to take on payroll..... Liar, liar, pants on fire. The trade was more about addressing payroll issues for this off season than addressing defense or roster issues....

This was a preemptive salary dump sold to fans as a win now/improve-the-defense move and masquerading to baseball pundits as one of the dumbest trades of the season....

Without even debating the wisdom of dumping Lopez (smart) and Kearns (dumb), lets just call a spade a spade. What bugs me the most is the dishonest spin,,,, if you're pissing on my head, I'd prefer an honest explanation rather than an attempt to convince me its raining....

Here's the commitments to payroll in '07 resulting from this trade:

Nats: Lopez+Kearns in '07: $8-9M (guesstimate-both are arb eligible and will get a raise.... it's undetermined what the Nats will try to do with contracts)

Reds: Bray+Maj in '07: around $800K

Gone: Clayton and Harris (very likely).

I agree. And the bullpen, which the trade was to fix, is exactly where most of the savings was spent (on Weathers and Stanton). So the trade was for 4 mediocre pen arms who all are nothing more than 7th inning relievers right now.

Tom Servo
12-31-2006, 01:05 PM
I don't buy that it was a really a salary dump. If anything, I think it showed what Wayne really thought of Kearns and FeLo and their percieved value.

mth123
12-31-2006, 01:08 PM
I don't buy that it was a really a salary dump. If anything, I think it showed what Wayne really thought of Kearns and FeLo and their percieved value.

I think the fact that these guys were going to be going to arbitration was a large factor in why they were the chosen trade bait in the first place.

edabbs44
12-31-2006, 01:10 PM
I don't buy that it was a really a salary dump. If anything, I think it showed what Wayne really thought of Kearns and FeLo and their percieved value.

Even if he didn't think highly of them, it didn't mean he had to give them away. It was laughable when he said that the trade showed where the market was for relief pitching.

Unassisted
12-31-2006, 01:17 PM
Alright, WK is now a liar. After "the trade", he said it was Deno's time. Way to change your story.

Deno's underperformance and Freel's overshadowing of Deno should get the blame for that bit of revisionist history.

I'm hopeful that Bray's and Majewski's contributions to the 2007 Reds will go a long way toward making the Kearns and Lopez delegations of RedsZone eat some of their criticism of the trade.

RedsManRick
12-31-2006, 01:28 PM
Brad Salmon, say hello to Mike Stanton.

And talk about revisionist history. Deno got 25 AB in July and 15 in August. When he started getting regular time in September (54 AB), he put up a .352/.407/.463. Chris never got a real full shot and he outperformed Freel when he did.

edabbs44
12-31-2006, 01:31 PM
Deno's underperformance and Freel's overshadowing of Deno should get the blame for that bit of revisionist history.

I'm hopeful that Bray's and Majewski's contributions to the 2007 Reds will go a long way toward making the Kearns and Lopez delegations of RedsZone eat some of their criticism of the trade.

Freel had an outstanding July, but here's the numbers in August and Sept/Oct. I'm not sure of Freel's performance in July after the trade, but he had a great month as a whole.

Freel August (109 ABs): .220/.325/.275
Freel Sept/Oct (53 ABs): .208/.311/.302

Denorfia August (15 ABs): .067/.176/.067
Denorfia Sept/Oct (54 ABs): .352/.407/.463

The best part is that, after Wayne gave him the kiss of death ("It's his time"), Deno had a combined 40 ABs in July and August. Hardly an audition. But if he is bragging that the trade opened up a spot for Freel, then he needs his head examined.

reds44
12-31-2006, 01:32 PM
None of the "old guys" that Krivsky signed are impeding the progress of younger players. It's not like the minor league system is bursting with young talent just waiting to crack the major league line-up.

The Reds have basically zero major league ready guys. The band-aids picked up in the off-season will serve the purpose of playing for a season or two until some of the prospects are ready. We need the prospects first though.
Exactly. Conine isn't going to stop Votto from coming up when he is ready.

WVRedsFan
12-31-2006, 02:42 PM
I'm hopeful that Bray's and Majewski's contributions to the 2007 Reds will go a long way toward making the Kearns and Lopez delegations of RedsZone eat some of their criticism of the trade.

I could live with that and gladly take on a plate of crow, but I'm not going to have to do that if history is any indicator. Majewski has been a very lucky pitcher over his two-year career. His only full season was 2005, when he put up the numbers that attracted Wayne to him. Even in that year, he gave up a lot of hits and had 4 blown saves, which proves he's not a closer. I'm not impressed. Bray is a kid. One outing he would look sharp and another get bombed. That jury's still out.


Each day, I dislike WK more and more.

All this keeps building into a decision I made four months ago and then retracted because I listened to others saying that he hadn't had enough time. The decision was that he wasn't a good GM. Now I know the popular thing to do is jump all over me and tell me that he's not through yet or he hasn't had enough time. But as time goes by, the evidence is mounting that the guy has not one clue about what he is doing except he wants to make the Reds the Minnesota Twins (glad he admitted that in print).

Without the minor league system and the players, you can't do that Wayne. Of course, bringing in old Twins who used to be good has to suffice for now I guess.

Jpup
12-31-2006, 04:09 PM
I hope this was just a misunderstanding and he really didn't try to change his story.

Redsland
12-31-2006, 07:42 PM
The Reds filed a grievance with Major League Baseball because pitcher Gary Majewski arrived from the Nationals with a sore right shoulder.
Not so, says MLB spokesman Pat Courtney.

Kc61
12-31-2006, 10:19 PM
I don't think Krivsky wanted Kearns or Lopez on the team. Kearns was another free swinging, slow outfielder. Lopez couldn't play defense. Upcoming arbitration for both was another reason, but in any event these guys were gone. I just think the Reds overvalued Majewski. They viewed him as a shut down eighth inning guy and, apparently due to injury, he didn't pan out in '06.

Krivsky's concept, expressed in the article, makes sense. Build the farm with prospects at all levels, don't weigh down the minor leagues with too many older players.

What Krivsky does not explain, however, is his failure to add any starting major league pitching this off-season. What turned me off is the statement at Redsfest that he is satisfied with the rotation, except for the five slot. Whatever his philosophy, a fan just can't be happy with the off-season so far.

BuckeyeRedleg
12-31-2006, 10:38 PM
Krivsky's concept, expressed in the article, makes sense. Build the farm with prospects at all levels, don't weigh down the minor leagues with too many older players.

I don't see how this wouldn't be the goal of every organization.

BenHayes
12-31-2006, 10:52 PM
i didn't believe anything dan o'brien said and now i don't believe anything wayne krivsky either. same ole same ole crap

pedro
01-01-2007, 12:08 AM
I think people take every little thing people say much too seriously.

MartyFan
01-01-2007, 12:52 AM
Alright, WK is now a liar. After "the trade", he said it was Deno's time. Way to change your story.



Each day, I dislike WK more and more.

No, in the article he said that was a result of the trade, not the reason for the trade.

stop looking to split hairs.

WVRedsFan
01-01-2007, 03:00 AM
I don't think Krivsky wanted Kearns or Lopez on the team. Kearns was another free swinging, slow outfielder. Lopez couldn't play defense. Upcoming arbitration for both was another reason, but in any event these guys were gone. I just think the Reds overvalued Majewski. They viewed him as a shut down eighth inning guy and, apparently due to injury, he didn't pan out in '06.

Krivsky's concept, expressed in the article, makes sense. Build the farm with prospects at all levels, don't weigh down the minor leagues with too many older players.

What Krivsky does not explain, however, is his failure to add any starting major league pitching this off-season. What turned me off is the statement at Redsfest that he is satisfied with the rotation, except for the five slot. Whatever his philosophy, a fan just can't be happy with the off-season so far.

Building the farm with prospects at all levels will take a lot of time. The condition the Schott administration left it in may take decades to repair. That's the problem with the "Minnesota Example." It doesn't apply here because we just don't have a good farm system. I have to wonder what planet Wayne was on when he made that statement. It matters not, but in order for the Cincinnati Reds to be competitive now as RCast said in his initial statements, the Reds will have to spend lots of money. It's obvious that this is not going to happen, so just tell us that it's going to be a slow process. Please.

I guess what I don't understand is the dying devotion to this rookie GM. Yes, I bought into his hiring and his early moves, but since then, he has made so many bad moves that it boggles the mind. Just when I thought that he was brilliant, he extends Narron's contract in mid-season, gives away two trading chips for a documented sore-armed reliever, a rookie pitcher and another player who hadn't even reached the majors (and then cuts Harris). He follows that up with the constant revolving door of everyone's least preferred players. Not satisfied, he continues to sign players who are old or untalented, ignoring the basic needs of this team--a starting pitcher and a power hitting outfielder while signing a shortstop (though he said we had one in Clayton) who will rival Don Blassingame in hitting powress, two tired pitfchers and an outfielder that no one wanted for what I consider big bucks. As I've said time and time again if the Reds Nation (sorry for those who hate that term) does not demand excellence, we will languish in the lower half of the Central Division for a long time. I'd rather get rid of all the players we have and start over with AAA players rather than break up the positive chips we have.

Frustration is what most fans feel and Wayne Krivsky and Robert Castillini (sorry if I spelled this wrong) sold us a bill of goods and have not produced. I'm disgusted (as if you didn't know).

edabbs44
01-01-2007, 03:18 AM
No, in the article he said that was a result of the trade, not the reason for the trade.

stop looking to split hairs.

I don't know about that...if he is justifying the trade by pointing out an inadvertant result, then he is really struggling to come to grips with the overall results.

But even if he thinks that opening a spot for Freel was a bonus, see my earlier post.


Freel had an outstanding July, but here's the numbers in August and Sept/Oct. I'm not sure of Freel's performance in July after the trade, but he had a great month as a whole.

Freel August (109 ABs): .220/.325/.275
Freel Sept/Oct (53 ABs): .208/.311/.302

Denorfia August (15 ABs): .067/.176/.067
Denorfia Sept/Oct (54 ABs): .352/.407/.463

The best part is that, after Wayne gave him the kiss of death ("It's his time"), Deno had a combined 40 ABs in July and August. Hardly an audition. But if he is bragging that the trade opened up a spot for Freel, then he needs his head examined.

redsmetz
01-01-2007, 09:39 AM
I think sometimes it astounds me the lack of patience of folks here at Redszone. I understand Castellini said he's looking to win now, but winning now is not something that happens with the snap of the fingers. And as much as we anticipated the offseason moves, it doesn't help that we received a Free Agent class which lacked depth. And we continually note the lack of trading chips for making a trade. We have a shallow system. It takes time and so many folks are ready to dump management overboard or abandon ship themselves because they haven't accomplished success in one short year.

Redhook
01-01-2007, 10:03 AM
It takes time and so many folks are ready to dump management overboard or abandon ship themselves because they haven't accomplished success in one short year.

It's not that they haven't accomplished success in one year, it's the fact there's no sense of direction. I have no idea what's going. I don't think anybody does, including Wayne. This team is getting worse, not better. This team is getting older, not younger. This team has less depth, not more. I thought Wayne had a plan, but it's clear he didn't.

I wish Wayne and Jerry would grow some cajones and let it be known that some players will move positions to make this team better, defensively. Make a public statement that Dunn will go to first, whether he likes it or not, Junior will go to left, whether he likes it or not, and Deno will start in CF with Freel in RF (since it's obvious we won't be adding that much needed right-handed bat). I'd like to see Wayne and Jerry make the commitment to defense like they say they're going to do. Get one more pitcher. A good one. How in the world Wayne had been quoted as saying he's happy with the roster is beyond me. It needs help, but has a chance if they stick to a plan, make tough decisions that may upset a couple players, and actually go out and address a major problem: a lack of a decent #3 pitcher.

Newman4
01-01-2007, 10:15 AM
Wayne needs to just shut up about "The Trade." At this point, every new spin he tries to take on it makes him look worse and worse. Amazing to me is that the Reds now need an Austin Kearns type RF RH bat. Considering Huff apparently is going to get about 6 million per, Kearns going to arbitration doesn't look so bad. The thing I hate about the Reds is when a trade goes down as a "salary dump" or "to add payroll flexibility" and then use the money to sign guys like Weathers, Stanton, Moeller, Cormier to an extension, etc.

RedsManRick
01-01-2007, 10:46 AM
So I'm reading WV's post and he mentions a trade for a reliever with known arm problems. The problem with Krivsky is that I was think Eddie Guardado and he WV was referred to Gary Majewski.

Wayne doesn't seem to know moderation in addressing problems. I applaud the idea of doing everything you can to make a run when you have the opportunity. But that doesn't give you liscence to make stupid choices while doing so.

RedRoser
01-01-2007, 11:35 AM
WVRed:
Thanks for putting my very thoughts into words and doing it so eloquently!
When I read your post, I had to check and see if I was actually reading something or thinking to myself.
Anyway, our thinking on the Reds situation is eerily similiar! :D

---RedRoser

jmac
01-01-2007, 11:46 AM
I wish Wayne and Jerry would grow some cajones and let it be known that some players will move positions to make this team better, defensively. Make a public statement that Dunn will go to first, whether he likes it or not, Junior will go to left, whether he likes it or not, and Deno will start in CF with Freel in RF (since it's obvious we won't be adding that much needed right-handed bat). I'd like to see Wayne and Jerry make the commitment to defense like they say they're going to do. Get one more pitcher. A good one. How in the world Wayne had been quoted as saying he's happy with the roster is beyond me. It needs help, but has a chance if they stick to a plan, make tough decisions that may upset a couple players, and actually go out and address a major problem: a lack of a decent #3 pitcher.

First off, with the current roster..I too wouldnt mind seeing dunn 1st-freel of-deno of- especially against left handers.
However, unless hatt flops tremendously ...i just dont see him being on the bench because he is obviously a WK type of player.. Platooned...yes, bench fulltime....no

since the reds didnt (havent) add any right handed punch then go for speed with deno and freel followed by EE ,Dunn etc.
That being said i still would like to see them dangle some bait to get a "westbrook,blanton" type.

Jpup
01-01-2007, 11:56 AM
I think sometimes it astounds me the lack of patience of folks here at Redszone. I understand Castellini said he's looking to win now, but winning now is not something that happens with the snap of the fingers. And as much as we anticipated the offseason moves, it doesn't help that we received a Free Agent class which lacked depth. And we continually note the lack of trading chips for making a trade. We have a shallow system. It takes time and so many folks are ready to dump management overboard or abandon ship themselves because they haven't accomplished success in one short year.

The Reds have a lot of chips. Harang, Arroyo, Dunn, Edwin, Homer, Freel, Phillips, Bruce, Wood, Votto, etc. What do you want to accomplish with those chips? They have lots of guys with trade value and some with great trade value, it's time to deal or get off the pot.

dsmith421
01-01-2007, 01:35 PM
Exactly. Conine isn't going to stop Votto from coming up when he is ready.

Are you familiar with our manager, the delightful Mr. Narron?

BuckeyeRedleg
01-01-2007, 03:16 PM
Building the farm with prospects at all levels will take a lot of time. The condition the Schott administration left it in may take decades to repair. That's the problem with the "Minnesota Example." It doesn't apply here because we just don't have a good farm system. I have to wonder what planet Wayne was on when he made that statement. It matters not, but in order for the Cincinnati Reds to be competitive now as RCast said in his initial statements, the Reds will have to spend lots of money. It's obvious that this is not going to happen, so just tell us that it's going to be a slow process. Please.

I guess what I don't understand is the dying devotion to this rookie GM. Yes, I bought into his hiring and his early moves, but since then, he has made so many bad moves that it boggles the mind. Just when I thought that he was brilliant, he extends Narron's contract in mid-season, gives away two trading chips for a documented sore-armed reliever, a rookie pitcher and another player who hadn't even reached the majors (and then cuts Harris). He follows that up with the constant revolving door of everyone's least preferred players. Not satisfied, he continues to sign players who are old or untalented, ignoring the basic needs of this team--a starting pitcher and a power hitting outfielder while signing a shortstop (though he said we had one in Clayton) who will rival Don Blassingame in hitting powress, two tired pitfchers and an outfielder that no one wanted for what I consider big bucks. As I've said time and time again if the Reds Nation (sorry for those who hate that term) does not demand excellence, we will languish in the lower half of the Central Division for a long time. I'd rather get rid of all the players we have and start over with AAA players rather than break up the positive chips we have.

Frustration is what most fans feel and Wayne Krivsky and Robert Castillini (sorry if I spelled this wrong) sold us a bill of goods and have not produced. I'm disgusted (as if you didn't know).

Amen.

Will M
01-01-2007, 08:15 PM
I think sometimes it astounds me the lack of patience of folks here at Redszone. I understand Castellini said he's looking to win now, but winning now is not something that happens with the snap of the fingers. And as much as we anticipated the offseason moves, it doesn't help that we received a Free Agent class which lacked depth. And we continually note the lack of trading chips for making a trade. We have a shallow system. It takes time and so many folks are ready to dump management overboard or abandon ship themselves because they haven't accomplished success in one short year.

I agree.

remdog
01-01-2007, 09:18 PM
A complaint about lack of patience to wait a year comes in from two people that have both been here less than a year. Somehow I find that humorous and ironic. Not wrong necessarily, just funny. :laugh:

Rem

Reds Nd2
01-01-2007, 10:26 PM
Not so, says MLB spokesman Pat Courtney.
While it was reported in early December that the Reds would be filing a grievance with MLB, I haven't seen anything saying they've actually filed it.

Dracodave
01-01-2007, 10:28 PM
A complaint about lack of patience to wait a year comes in from two people that have both been here less than a year. Somehow I find that humorous and ironic. Not wrong necessarily, just funny. :laugh:

Rem


I've had patience with the Reds since..well..too long ago.

Wheelhouse
01-02-2007, 01:29 AM
My take on the trade: I don't like watching Felipe Lopez play baseball. I find his game frustrating and unentertaining. Kearns is a so-so right fielder in the league. Majewski was hurt last year, hopefully better this year. Bray is young, a lefty and brings heat. I think the jury on this trade should be this year, when we see what these pitchers really are--hopefully Steve Phillips will be eating his words in the end.

Topcat
01-02-2007, 03:10 AM
A complaint about lack of patience to wait a year comes in from two people that have both been here less than a year. Somehow I find that humorous and ironic. Not wrong necessarily, just funny. :laugh:

Rem

Very astute of you to notice that :beerme:

redsmetz
01-02-2007, 08:57 AM
A complaint about lack of patience to wait a year comes in from two people that have both been here less than a year. Somehow I find that humorous and ironic. Not wrong necessarily, just funny. :laugh:

Rem

I guess I miss the humor and irony. Does only being on the list for less than a year negate my ability to note what is apparent? At my age, I've seen my share of lackluster Reds teams and have certainly shared in the dismal decade plus that we've come through. Certainly I want to see this ballclub improve and hope that his new ownership group will follow through on their early promises, but I'm smart enough to recognize that you don't turn the proverbial ship around on a dime. The time this group has owned the team is miniscule in baseball time.

remdog
01-02-2007, 09:21 AM
I guess I miss the humor and irony. Does only being on the list for less than a year negate my ability to note what is apparent?

I guess sometimes I'm just too nice. (sigh) Honestly, when you are complaining about impatience I don't think you are showing any ability to note what is apparent. You are simply noting the after effect of what is apparent to most people on this board: lack of a plan, wasteful spending, inability to recognize a narrow 'window of opportunity' and crying poor after promising to spend the money necessary to put a winner on the field.

Rem

redsmetz
01-02-2007, 10:36 AM
I guess sometimes I'm just too nice. (sigh) Honestly, when you are complaining about impatience I don't think you are showing any ability to note what is apparent. You are simply noting the after effect of what is apparent to most people on this board: lack of a plan, wasteful spending, inability to recognize a narrow 'window of opportunity' and crying poor after promising to spend the money necessary to put a winner on the field.

Rem

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I can't say if there is a "lack of a plan" because I've never believed the Reds (or any team) are obiligated to share the specifics with their fan base. I don't lose any sleep over that. I agree some of the signings have seemed pointless (your "wasteful spending"), but then it's a long offseason. Likewise, I look at the offseason as a whole and so I disagree there's been a "narrow 'window of opportunity'" - the offseason continues - let's see what the club looks like come Opening Day. Lastly, the Reds are not alone in being cautious in this exploding free agent market. Even the sainted St. Louis Cardinals' Walt Jockety has noted it's crazy and is staying above the fray.

All of this takes time and it's senseless, IMO, to get one's shorts in a bunch over it.

Johnny Footstool
01-02-2007, 10:43 AM
The people asking for "patience" seem to forget that the trade was made to bring *immediate* help to the bullpen. That's why it occurred in mid-July and not at the deadline or in the offseason. It failed miserably in that respect.

What's ironic is that Krivsky showed absolutely no patience in making the deal.


I'm hopeful that Bray's and Majewski's contributions to the 2007 Reds will go a long way toward making the Kearns and Lopez delegations of RedsZone eat some of their criticism of the trade.

Good luck with that.

edabbs44
01-02-2007, 11:00 AM
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I can't say if there is a "lack of a plan" because I've never believed the Reds (or any team) are obiligated to share the specifics with their fan base. I don't lose any sleep over that. I agree some of the signings have seemed pointless (your "wasteful spending"), but then it's a long offseason. Likewise, I look at the offseason as a whole and so I disagree there's been a "narrow 'window of opportunity'" - the offseason continues - let's see what the club looks like come Opening Day. Lastly, the Reds are not alone in being cautious in this exploding free agent market. Even the sainted St. Louis Cardinals' Walt Jockety has noted it's crazy and is staying above the fray.

All of this takes time and it's senseless, IMO, to get one's shorts in a bunch over it.

I tend to agree with you, but most times a team's direction or plan is pretty apparent.

Jocketty has a ring...he can stay above the fray.

This Reitsma thing is bothering me a lot more than most people on here and just furthers my belief that WK is a little dazed. We all know that the 2006 BP was probably the worst in the history of baseball, but there is no reason to spend so much money and time on flooding the roster with relievers. There are more holes than just the bullpen and after all the acquisitions, one would assume that we're set in that respect. I guess not.

Ltlabner
01-02-2007, 11:15 AM
A complaint about lack of patience to wait a year comes in from two people that have both been here less than a year. Somehow I find that humorous and ironic.

How long must one be a member of the board before they are entitiled to an opinion then?


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I can't say if there is a "lack of a plan" because I've never believed the Reds (or any team) are obiligated to share the specifics with their fan base.

Couldn't agree more. Aditionally, the plan is pretty obvious: simulataniously rebuild the farm system while making an effort to compete in the short term. Focus more on pitching and defense.

Because people don't like the plan, or think it is the wrong one, does not negate the fact that Krivsky has made his intentions clear.

I am starting to wonder myself about the wisdom of trying to do both at the same time. Also, Krivsky's offseason thus far has been lacking (except for Gonzo) IMO. But again, the plan is obvious. It's the implementation of the plan that has left people scratching their heads at different times.

jojo
01-02-2007, 11:29 AM
Couldn't agree more. Aditionally, the plan is pretty obvious: simulataniously rebuild the farm system while making an effort to compete in the short term. Focus more on pitching and defense.

IMHO the plan is: rebuild the farm system and bide their time until some of the bad contracts go away while trying to convince the fanbase that theyre both making an effort to compete in the short term and are willing to increase payroll....

They clearly have a small market payroll philosophy and most moves they have made have either resulted in a long term reduction in payroll or have been designed to avoid having to take a bigger dollar bite at the apple....

Really, one move can be looked at as signalling a willingness to take on payroll and its very likely Courmier will be traded before spring training.

Yet they don't seem to trust their youngsters (i.e. Denorfia) and thus settle on aging names that can be had for cheap (i.e. Conine). Denorfia probably projects as a useful fourth outfielder-I don't have any delusions. But he's a guy that can easily platoon in center and right as a decent compromise which given his salary is a pretty valuable commodity. It has no value at all if such a commodity isn't used...

Anyway, there's a lot of issues mixed into that rant but there it is....

Ltlabner
01-02-2007, 11:39 AM
IMHO the plan is: rebuild the farm system and bide their time until some of the bad contracts go away while trying to convince the fanbase that theyre both making an effort to compete in the short term and are willing to increase payroll....

I'd agree. That's probably a better way of saying what I was thinking.


Yet they don't seem to trust their youngsters (i.e. Denorfia) and thus settle on aging names that can be had for cheap (i.e. Conine). Denorfia probably projects as a useful fourth outfielder-I don't have any delusions. But he's a guy that can easily platoon in center and right as a decent compromise which given his salary is a pretty valuable commodity. It has no value at all if such a commodity isn't used...

I got pretty irritated by all the "scrappy" talk last season, but I agree that Narron (and I guess Krivsky) seem to put a lot of stock in experience. That isn't a bad thing, but Narron especially goes overboard with it IMO.

tomd63
01-02-2007, 11:44 AM
This Reitsma thing is bothering me a lot more than most people on here and just furthers my belief that WK is a little dazed. We all know that the 2006 BP was probably the worst in the history of baseball, but there is no reason to spend so much money and time on flooding the roster with relievers. There are more holes than just the bullpen and after all the acquisitions, one would assume that we're set in that respect. I guess not.

Somebody wake me when Krivsky thinks he's finally fixed the bullpen. :help:

I can't believe that they are still trying to fix the pen and all the while not having noticed that the offense has crumbled around them. If we see the expected declines in Ross, Hatteberg, and Phillips, along with already weak offense at SS and RF, we're in for a hurting as far as scoring runs.

He's still not fixed the defense either. Ecnarnacion, Dunn, Griffey, and Ross all still have minor to serious problems defensively. Not to mention that the SP is real questionable after Arroyo and Harang and both of those guys could see dropoffs next season as well, I expect one moreso from Arroyo.

Hopefully we'll see some of these things addressed soon. Cause if not, I think it will be a battle to finish above 5th in the Central.

remdog
01-02-2007, 12:27 PM
If you don't see the irony in someone being be impatient with posters for not be patient then I can't help you. Especially when said posters have been here less time than they are proposeing giving Krivsky. :laugh:

If Krivsky is demonstrating his 'plan' then I wouldn't even trust him to go to the grocery store without a specific list. He's buying seasoning without any meat to season.

The Reds cry poor but spend $23M on dreck. That would have covered Zito's salary, for instance, and left money to pick up spare parts.

You want us to be patient with Krivsky yet Wayne shows no patience. How about being so impatient to unload Jason LaRue that he actually paid KC $3M to take him and then went out and blew another $375K on Chad Moeller! Yikes! The patient way would have been to wait into ST when teams discover they need a backup or even starting catcher due to injury, ineptitude, etc. That's when LaRue has value. And feel free to raise your hand if you're comfortable, if Ross goes down for the year, with Moeller behind the plate for 100 games this year.

The window of opportunity I mentioned is the season. As crappy as the Reds were last year this division is up for grabs. The problem is the Reds have regressed. Great plan though.

Rem

Jpup
01-02-2007, 12:27 PM
Somebody wake me when Krivsky thinks he's finally fixed the bullpen. :help:

I can't believe that they are still trying to fix the pen and all the while not having noticed that the offense has crumbled around them. If we see the expected declines in Ross, Hatteberg, and Phillips, along with already weak offense at SS and RF, we're in for a hurting as far as scoring runs.

He's still not fixed the defense either. Ecnarnacion, Dunn, Griffey, and Ross all still have minor to serious problems defensively. Not to mention that the SP is real questionable after Arroyo and Harang and both of those guys could see dropoffs next season as well, I expect one moreso from Arroyo.

Hopefully we'll see some of these things addressed soon. Cause if not, I think it will be a battle to finish above 5th in the Central.

What makes you think that Harang will drop off. He seems to be improving to me.

remdog
01-02-2007, 12:35 PM
How long must one be a member of the board before they are entitiled to an opinion then?

Why ask me? You brought it up. I've never said anything about that. You're obviously being combative though. Why is that?

Rem

jojo
01-02-2007, 12:59 PM
What makes you think that Harang will drop off. He seems to be improving to me.


here's my take on harang: I think we've probably seen the ceiling for Harang in '06 (i.e. he's not going to be a bona fide #1 TOR guy). That being said, '06 was a huge step for him because he proved he's legit-his peripherals are the model of consistency with some nice exceptions (both his K/G and BB/G have improved the last few years). Assuming he doesnt get injured, I doubt there is going to be a decline. While he might have a bad season (or an unlucky LOB% over a season), its pretty reasonable to pencil him in for 200 innings with an ERA in the high 3's probably for the next 5 years.

It wouldn't shock me on the other hand, if Arroyo posted an ERA around 4.50 next season. He had a very high LOB% in '06 and its not a safe bet to assume that gets repeated.

Jpup
01-02-2007, 01:01 PM
here's my take on harang: I think we've probably seen the ceiling for Harang in '06 (i.e. he's not going to be a bona fide #1 TOR guy). That being said, '06 was a huge step for him because he proved he's legit-his peripherals are the model of consistency with some nice exceptions (both his K/G and BB/G have improved the last few years). Assuming he doesnt get injured, I doubt there is going to be a decline. While he might have a bad season (or an unlucky LOB% over a season), its pretty reasonable to pencil him in for 200 innings with an ERA in the high 3's probably for the next 5 years.

It wouldn't shock me on the other hand, if Arroyo posted an ERA around 4.50 next season. He had a very high LOB% in '06 and its not a safe bet to assume that gets repeated.

Harang is a bona fide #1 already.

Caveman Techie
01-02-2007, 01:20 PM
here's my take on harang: I think we've probably seen the ceiling for Harang in '06 (i.e. he's not going to be a bona fide #1 TOR guy).


What's a guy got to do to be considered a bona fide #1? Pitch for New York or Boston?

edabbs44
01-02-2007, 01:25 PM
What's a guy got to do to be considered a bona fide #1? Pitch for New York or Boston?

Exactly...if he was in NY or Bos, he's be the second coming.

redsmetz
01-02-2007, 01:26 PM
What's a guy got to do to be considered a bona fide #1? Pitch for New York or Boston?

Apparently you're right. If he was pitching somewhere else, many here would say he's on the rise and we need him bad. But if someone pitches for the Reds, they're always on their downside. Sheesh.

RedsManRick
01-02-2007, 01:57 PM
I hate the talk of scrappiness as much as the next guy, but you also have to wonder how much of that talk reflects actual belief and how much reflects the fact that managers have to give quotes every day on topics that really don't change and that any real insight may do more harm than good.

Talk of experience and scrapiness may just be because Narron doesn't want to say "Getting a legitimate 1B isn't in the plans this year. We're going to hope and pray everything works out. We know Hatteberg will probably regress and that Conine pretty much sucks, but hey, you play the hand you're dealt by the GM." Yeah, that would go over real well I'm sure.

The problem is when that talk reflects an actual attitude towards the game (see Dusty Baker) rather than simply serving as benign pre/post-game quotes for the next days column. I'm not sure with Narron yet and I get the feeling the Krivsky holds his cards really close to his vest. He had a legitimate complaint about limited time to work last offseason. The next 8-10 months should reveal quite a bit about Krivsky's general "plan" for building the organization.

PuffyPig
01-02-2007, 02:09 PM
His only full season was 2005, when he put up the numbers that attracted Wayne to him. Even in that year, he gave up a lot of hits and had 4 blown saves, which proves he's not a closer.

While it has little to do with your post (which I agree with), how does 4 blown saves (in 28 chances) prove you are not a closer?

jojo
01-02-2007, 02:19 PM
Harang is a bona fide #1 already.

that really depends upon your definition.....

Here's how Harang compares to qualifying starters in the majors:

ERA:19th
xFIP: 15th
k/G: 10th
BB/G:19th
IP: 3rd

He's basically the reds #1 but in reality he's a #2....

Caveman Techie
01-02-2007, 02:32 PM
Ok lets take this further.

ERA: 19th (How many teams are there in MLB?)

xFip: 15th (same answer)

k/g: 10th (again same answer)

bb/g: 19th (do I have to say it?)

IP: 3rd (no comment necessary)

and now for some new ones:

Ranks 5th in NL in W (16) (yeah I know don't judge on W's but it still counts)
Ranks 1st in NL in SO (216)
Ranks 1st in NL in CG (6)
Ranks 10th in MLB in K/BB (3.86)

Ltlabner
01-02-2007, 02:45 PM
I hate the talk of scrappiness as much as the next guy, but you also have to wonder how much of that talk reflects actual belief and how much reflects the fact that managers have to give quotes every day on topics that really don't change and that any real insight may do more harm than good.

Talk of experience and scrapiness may just be because Narron doesn't want to say "Getting a legitimate 1B isn't in the plans this year. We're going to hope and pray everything works out. We know Hatteberg will probably regress and that Conine pretty much sucks, but hey, you play the hand you're dealt by the GM." Yeah, that would go over real well I'm sure.

The problem is when that talk reflects an actual attitude towards the game (see Dusty Baker) rather than simply serving as benign pre/post-game quotes for the next days column. I'm not sure with Narron yet and I get the feeling the Krivsky holds his cards really close to his vest. He had a legitimate complaint about limited time to work last offseason. The next 8-10 months should reveal quite a bit about Krivsky's general "plan" for building the organization.

Well said.

Eric_Davis
01-02-2007, 02:55 PM
Nice article, at least the part that's in this thread. I'm sure glad the fans don't run the REDS or we'd be changing G.M.'s every month.

jojo
01-02-2007, 03:01 PM
Ok lets take this further.

(How many teams are there in MLB?)

That's an interesting way to break up a distribution but you have to consider some teams might actually have three arms in their rotation that are better than another teams best arm-simply dividing bythe number of teams can be misleading. Besides, my definition of a bona fide number one seems to be more rigourous than others.... Without making the argument too complicated i'd suggest there are maybe ten bona fide #1's in the league right now (Webb, Santana, Carpenter, Clemens, F. Hernandez, Halladay, Bonderman, Smoltz, Oswalt, Schilling, Peavy)...

It could be argued that Harang would've been a number 4 starter in Houstan's rotation after Clemens came back (behind clemens, oswalt, and pettitte).... though i think Harang beats out Pettitte.

This isn't a knock on Harang.... my posts about him in this thread have been very complementary. Pettitte legitimately got $16M this off season so I don't undervalue Harang. At his salary he is a an absolute steal. But IMHO, he's a little bit below the class of guys listed above....

Dracodave
01-02-2007, 03:12 PM
[QUOTE=jojo;1220880]Without making the argument too complicated i'd suggest there are maybe ten bona fide #1's in the league right now (Webb, Santana, Carpenter, Clemens, F. Hernandez, Halladay, Bonderman, Smoltz, Oswalt, Schilling, Peavy)... [QUOTE]

I agree with half that list but Hernandez won't be a number one to me till he can constantly do it. Also you left out Verlander who maybe more deserving than Bonderman. You also left out Pedro Martinez, who I'd call a ace over half that list.

jojo
01-02-2007, 03:24 PM
[QUOTE=jojo;1220880]Without making the argument too complicated i'd suggest there are maybe ten bona fide #1's in the league right now (Webb, Santana, Carpenter, Clemens, F. Hernandez, Halladay, Bonderman, Smoltz, Oswalt, Schilling, Peavy)... [QUOTE]

I agree with half that list but Hernandez won't be a number one to me till he can constantly do it. Also you left out Verlander who maybe more deserving than Bonderman. You also left out Pedro Martinez, who I'd call a ace over half that list.


Ya...Pedro didn't have enough qualifying innings to show up on the stats I was looking at so I forgot about him.

Concerning Verlander vs. Bonderman, Bonderman's peripherals are much better. I personally would take Bonderman until Verlander grows as a major leaguer. Verlander's numbers in college and the minors are juicy though.

dsmith421
01-02-2007, 03:49 PM
I don't like watching Felipe Lopez play baseball. I find his game frustrating and unentertaining.

That's a fantastic reason to dump a 26-year-old All-Star for crap.

tomd63
01-02-2007, 07:35 PM
What makes you think that Harang will drop off. He seems to be improving to me.

I just wouldn't be surprised if he slid back just a bit. His XERA last season was 4.09, and I was a bit surprised that his WHIP remained the same from 2005 given his big increase in strike outs. I don't see a big falloff, just wouldn't be suprised by a small one.