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Tom Servo
01-01-2007, 01:34 PM
per rotoworld:


Agent Mike Paolercio said Cincinnati is one of the teams he's well into negotiations with regarding free agent Chris Reitsma.

Reitsma has offers on the table from six teams. Not included are the Marlins or Braves. There was speculation Atlanta would try to re-sign him after non-tendering him last month. "I have not heard from the Atlanta Braves whatsoever," Paolerico said. "I'm assuming at this point they did not want to follow up on that."

Highlifeman21
01-01-2007, 01:35 PM
Some may not welcome his return, but I think he would be another Belisle for us, which is certainly better than a Weathers or an Elizardo Ramirez.

Give Reitsma another shot in the Queen City, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't disappoint.

Jpup
01-01-2007, 01:38 PM
http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/braves/entries/2006/12/31/reitsma_leaving.html


At the risk of spoiling the New Year’s celebration for many of you, l’m going to cut to the chase and tell you that Chris Reitsma will not be returning to the Braves.

OK, stop the derisive applause.

This according to the beleaguered reliever’s agent, who told me Sunday that Atlanta wasn’t among the dozen teams that expressed interest in Reitsma after the Braves non-tendered him last month.

Agent Mike Paolercio said six teams have made “legitimate offers” for Reitsma, who posted an 8.68 ERA and .362 opponents’ average in 27 appearances before the All-Star break, then went on the DL and had season-ending elbow surgery.

He’s been throwing off a mound since September and plans to be at full strength for spring training. But the Braves, in probably the best move for all parties given Reitsma’s performance and fall from favor here, apparently decided to cut the cord.

GM John Schuerholz said three weeks ago, when arbitration-eligible Reitsma and Marcus Giles weren’t offered contracts, that the Braves might try to re-sign Reitsma to a lesser contract (he could’ve expected $2 million-plus through arbitration). Not happening.

“I have not heard from the Atlanta Braves whatsoever,” Paolerico said. “I’m assuming at this point they did not want to follow up on that.”

He said he’s well into negotiations with “several teams” including Cincinnati, where Reitsma was a setup man, closer and fan favorite before being traded to Atlanta before the 2004 season.

(Yes, he was a seriously popular pitcher in Cincy, much as Dan Kolb was in Milwaukee and Bob Wickman in Cleveland. Hey, at least one of them didn’t see his career fall to pieces in Atlanta.)

Reitsma had stints as closer with the Braves but eventually blew ‘em all. He converted just 25 of 45 save opportunities in three seasons for the Braves.

There were some rough times in his tenure with the team, none worse than the day Reitsma was walking with his young daughter in their Newnan neighborhood when a guy in a pickup truck rolled down his window and shouted “You suck!” to Reitsma.

On the field, his performance since the summer of 2005 did, for the most part. He never made excuses, but after the elbow surgery he confided that the condition caused periodic numbness in his pitching hand since the World Baseball Classic last fall (that damn Classic _ did anything good come of it?)

Anyway, to his credit, Reitsma didn’t use the elbow as an excuse for the 2005 season, when he was NL Rolaids Relief Man of the Month in July, then the source of much antacid consumption by fans and team officials the rest of the season.

Talk about your precipitous declines, consider this epic fall: After converting 9 of 9 saves while posting a 1.04 ERA and .153 opponents’ average in 17 appearances July 1-Aug. 6, 2005, Reitsma had a 7.68 ERA and .358 OA in his final 51 appearances for the Braves.

He went 1-6 and blew 9 of 17 saves in that awful stretch.

He was often booed at home, but struggled even more on the road, posting a hard-to-fathom 11.39 ERA and .430 opponents’ average in his final 21 road games for the Braves, with 46 hits and five homers surrendered in those 21-1/3 innings away from Turner Field.

So again, it’s probably good it’s over here. You turn the page and hope the story gets better.

While most of you never met him, let me go on record as saying Reitsma was about as decent and good a dude as I’ve ever met in 12 years covering baseball. I know that probably doesn’t mean a lot to you, because, as I said, he did stink for most of his final 12 months here.

But next time he visits Turner Field, it really wouldn’t hurt to give him a little polite applause. Or at least quiet indifference. At least don’t roll down your window and yell obscenities at him. If you guys ever got to meet him and talk to him, you’d know what I mean. Good dude.

I know this has been discussed, but this is something official, I guess since it's basically coming from Chris' agent. I would say that those "several teams" are much like Scott Boras' "mystery teams."

Jpup
01-01-2007, 01:40 PM
hey mods, maybe merge this one with the other one. We posted about the same time, sorry. :thumbup:

RedsManRick
01-01-2007, 01:42 PM
Hey now, Chris was one of the 25 most popular guys on the 25 man roster who weren't on the DL.

captainmorgan07
01-01-2007, 01:53 PM
i wouldn't mind having reitsma back in reds uniform atleast he aint old as some of our current bullpen memebers are

Superdude
01-01-2007, 02:03 PM
Belisle < Ramirez

dunner13
01-01-2007, 02:07 PM
I would take him back, my only thought is we would seem to have a pretty full bullpen. I would like to see some of the younger players get a chance but Im sure a couple of the old guys will spend some time on the DL so it will all work out.

Degenerate39
01-01-2007, 02:11 PM
I haven't heard that name in a long time. I remember him being on the team a few years ago but there's not much that I remember about him. Is he a starting pitcher or a relief pitcher?

OesterPoster
01-01-2007, 02:14 PM
Relief pitcher with a wicked changeup (or at least it used to be).

Falls City Beer
01-01-2007, 02:36 PM
What a waste of time and resources.

redsupport
01-01-2007, 02:48 PM
I remember people posting in about 2001, that Reitsma was a star, and they could not wait until his next stat, some distaff poster used to claim, only 4 more days until Reitsma's next start. Talk about myopic drivel.

corkedbat
01-01-2007, 02:50 PM
IF his arm checks out and you think he upgrades the BP, I say do it if you think you can turn some of the other bullpen excess into something useful. Add talent wherever and whenever you can in the off season. If you get a bit crowded somewhere it gives you a chance to trade for something else.

I'm praying that KrivO can still accomplish a thing or two before ST. If so, a couple of bullpen arms might work to sweeten a deal or two.

fisch11
01-01-2007, 02:51 PM
We gave Chris away when he was in his prime...his numbers have gone downhill since.

Johnny Footstool
01-01-2007, 02:52 PM
If he's cheap, sign him up. If it requires Cormier money, don't.

pedro
01-01-2007, 02:54 PM
Belisle < Ramirez


Belisle has way more upside IMO than Ramirez.

Always Red
01-01-2007, 03:02 PM
I don't really understand the Weathers bashing that goes on here. No, Weathers certainly is NOT Mariano Rivera, or even Danny Graves (in his prime!).

And he did flop as closer last year; but he's not a closer. He's best when used correctly (funny, I remember Rick White saying the same thing when he left here for Philadelphia, where he pitched much better than he did for the Reds).

But Weathers isn't a bad middle relief pitcher. His ERA was 3.54 for the year, 1.64 after the ASB. And it was 3.94 for 2005. Plus, Weathers isn't a fly ball pitcher (technically, he's neither a FB or GB pitcher with a 1.0 GO/AO).

I'm not saying Weathers is the greatest, just that he's not as bad as some would make him out to be, and I'd rather have him pitching in the 6th or 7th than a lot of the other guys in the Reds pen. My only problem would be with him as closer.

Reitsma would be an OK addition to the 'pen, but as mentioned above, someone will have to go. Is he healthy? Reitsma has shown that he's not a closer, either; there's a good reason Atlanta has not contacted him at all.

I agree with Johnny Footstool:

If he's cheap, sign him up. If it requires Cormier money, don't.

BCubb2003
01-01-2007, 03:13 PM
If he's cheap, sign him up. If it requires Cormier money, don't.

"Cormier money."

Sigh.

TRF
01-01-2007, 03:29 PM
Belisle has way more upside IMO than Ramirez.

Belisle has maybe 1-2 MPH on his fastball over Ramirez. EZ has a better changeup, better control, and is 3 years younger. He does lack movement on his FB, but That's something I think he can learn.

Ramirez in a landslide over Belisle.

That said I want both of them in the rotation.

Always Red
01-01-2007, 03:35 PM
"Cormier money."

Sigh.

Well, WK is THE "middle relief connoisseur." :(

deltachi8
01-01-2007, 03:56 PM
ugh

mth123
01-01-2007, 03:56 PM
I don't really understand the Weathers bashing that goes on here.

High Walk Rate, High HR Rate, was good last year solely due to BABIP .236. He's not worth paying anything over $500K for. If he wants more than that, then go on to the next guy. The money could be put to better use. There is a spot in the middle of the pen or as a mop-up guy for that, but why pay $2.5 Million for it?

Unless he has a BABIP below .250 again, he'll have an ERA above 5. Just my opinion.

jmac
01-01-2007, 04:12 PM
I don't really understand the Weathers bashing that goes on here. No, Weathers certainly is NOT Mariano Rivera, or even Danny Graves (in his prime!).

And he did flop as closer last year; but he's not a closer. He's best when used correctly (funny, I remember Rick White saying the same thing when he left here for Philadelphia, where he pitched much better than he did for the Reds).

But Weathers isn't a bad middle relief pitcher. His ERA was 3.54 for the year, 1.64 after the ASB. And it was 3.94 for 2005. Plus, Weathers isn't a fly ball pitcher (technically, he's neither a FB or GB pitcher with a 1.0 GO/AO).

I'm not saying Weathers is the greatest, just that he's not as bad as some would make him out to be, and I'd rather have him pitching in the 6th or 7th than a lot of the other guys in the Reds pen. My only problem would be with him as closer.


Agreed as far as weathers and the role he plays.
As far as reitsma...i dont think he really fills the need the reds have since weathers is a decent set-up guy. Reitsma is too similar to the others...decent outing followed by terrible outing.

reds44
01-01-2007, 04:12 PM
We better not pay him anything noteworthy. If it's like a 1 year deal with $750,000 then I am ok with it. Anything over a million and it's a bad move.

redsupport
01-01-2007, 04:12 PM
concur, way too much sentimentality for retreads like this, they are a dime a dozen

pedro
01-01-2007, 04:28 PM
Belisle has maybe 1-2 MPH on his fastball over Ramirez. EZ has a better changeup, better control, and is 3 years younger. He does lack movement on his FB, but That's something I think he can learn.

Ramirez in a landslide over Belisle.

That said I want both of them in the rotation.

I think Ramirez was incredibly lucky last year. I just don't see it happening again.

If he's in the rotation his ERA won't be below 5.

dunner13
01-01-2007, 04:33 PM
I think Ramirez was incredibly lucky last year. I just don't see it happening again.

If he's in the rotation his ERA won't be below 5.

I agree. He did well til the league saw him the second time.

StantontheRed
01-01-2007, 04:53 PM
I would say its a base salary of around 750,000 to a mil. with incenatives(spelling) in his contract.

Jpup
01-01-2007, 04:57 PM
I would say its a base salary of around 750,000 to a mil. with incenatives(spelling) in his contract.

Did you just pull that out of thin air or your top hat?:help:

RedLegSuperStar
01-01-2007, 05:01 PM
I guess we say Bye Bye to Rule 5 Draftee Mr. Jared Burton..

StantontheRed
01-01-2007, 05:03 PM
It came from somewhere,exactly were I dont know.

reds44
01-01-2007, 05:12 PM
I agree. He did well til the league saw him the second time.
Disagreed. Here is a post a made on ORG a while back.


I am a big Lizard fan, and I think he just hit some sort of wall last year.

Look at his starts:
7 IP, 2 ER
6 IP, 3 ER
4 IP, 1 ER (6 unearned, 7 total)
6 IP, 2 ER
5 IP, 3 ER
6 IP, 4 ER
6 IP, 2 ER
6 IP, 3 ER
8 IP, 0 ER
6 IP, 4 ER
6.1 IP, 2 ER
5 IP, 6 ER
6 IP, 3 ER
6 IP, 3 ER
5 IP, 5 ER
6.2 IP, 1 ER

At that point, he had thrown 95 innings as a starter and given up 44 earned runs. That's a 4.10 ERA. That's very good.

Then we hit August.

4.2 IP, 5 ER
1.2 IP, 6 ER
0.1 IP, 1 ER (not a start)
1.1 IP, 5 ER

That is 8 IP and 17 ER. That is a 19.10 ERA.

He ended up throwing 103 innings, and giving up 61 ER. That is an ERA of 5.33 You can see what those 4 appearances in August did to him.

In 2003, he threw 157 innings in A ball. In 2004 he threw 138 innings combined. In 2005, 153. Last year he threw 124 innings in A (1 start), AAA, and in Cincinnati. The question is, did he hit a wall or did they figure him out? I just find it hard to believe he pitched so well in 95 innnings, and it just fell apart for him in August.
95 innings is alot more then once aorund the league. He had 4 bad appearances last year.

mth123
01-01-2007, 05:15 PM
I guess we say Bye Bye to Rule 5 Draftee Mr. Jared Burton..

And Hello Louisville Brad Salmon. The Reds need to be packaging a few of these relievers not bringing in more. In theory bringing in Reitsma on a minor league incentive based contract is good. Then I try like heck to trade Cormier, Majewski and a prospect or 2 to get a young up and coming rotation candidate. When the dead wood is cleared away, give a clear shot to the Burtons and Salmons of the world with a guy like Reitsma as a fallback.

I'm guessing a guaranteed major league deal for way too much money that will force the Reds to DFA another player is what will happen.

Jpup
01-01-2007, 05:15 PM
Disagreed. Here is a post a made on ORG a while back.


95 innings is alot more then once aorund the league. He had 4 bad appearances last year.

I count 8. Anytime your starter can't go 6 innings, he's not much IMO.

reds44
01-01-2007, 05:24 PM
I count 8. Anytime your starter can't go 6 innings, he's not much IMO.
Oh yeah, sorry. I was just counting the 4 in a row that really inflated his ERA. He doesn't go more then 6 often, so that is definately a fair critisism.

pedro
01-01-2007, 05:29 PM
Disagreed. Here is a post a made on ORG a while back.


95 innings is alot more then once aorund the league. He had 4 bad appearances last year.

I count 9.

RedsManRick
01-01-2007, 05:40 PM
If memory serves, Elizardo ended up the season with an injury of some point. If we assume he didn't simply get hurt and stop pitching, then he was pitching with that injury for some period of time -- say, maybe a few starts?

Then we're going to complain at his stamina. Excluding those starts in August, he averaged 5.94 IP/GS. Is that great? Heck no. But we're talking about a minimum cost, 24 year old, who looks capable of 6 IP per start and a 4.50 ERA. That would give us one of the best #5 starters in baseball. Does August concern me? Of course, but it seems sometimes people would rather a guy with a 5&#37; chance of being a #2 and a 80% of never doing anything over they guy they've got with a really good chance at being a servicable major league starter.

reds44
01-01-2007, 05:54 PM
I count 9.
My point was his last 4 appearances inflated his injury.

Caveat Emperor
01-01-2007, 06:05 PM
Belisle has maybe 1-2 MPH on his fastball over Ramirez. EZ has a better changeup, better control, and is 3 years younger. He does lack movement on his FB, but That's something I think he can learn.

Ramirez in a landslide over Belisle.

That said I want both of them in the rotation.

Ramirez has almost no movement on any of his pitches. His fastball comes in straight as an arrow, and his breaking balls don't get that big bite needed to make them true out pitches. I don't recall many pitchers learning to put natural movement on their fastballs -- it is usually something a pitcher either has or he doesn't.

For a pitcher that is only 6' tall, not having that movement is a recipe for disaster.

reds44
01-01-2007, 06:17 PM
Ramirez has almost no movement on any of his pitches. His fastball comes in straight as an arrow, and his breaking balls don't get that big bite needed to make them true out pitches. I don't recall many pitchers learning to put natural movement on their fastballs -- it is usually something a pitcher either has or he doesn't.

For a pitcher that is only 6' tall, not having that movement is a recipe for disaster.
He has a pretty good movement on his curve.

mth123
01-01-2007, 06:24 PM
If memory serves, Elizardo ended up the season with an injury of some point. If we assume he didn't simply get hurt and stop pitching, then he was pitching with that injury for some period of time -- say, maybe a few starts?

Then we're going to complain at his stamina. Excluding those starts in August, he averaged 5.94 IP/GS. Is that great? Heck no. But we're talking about a minimum cost, 24 year old, who looks capable of 6 IP per start and a 4.50 ERA. That would give us one of the best #5 starters in baseball. Does August concern me? Of course, but it seems sometimes people would rather a guy with a 5% chance of being a #2 and a 80% of never doing anything over they guy they've got with a really good chance at being a servicable major league starter.

Agree. Well said.

RedLegSuperStar
01-01-2007, 07:38 PM
And Hello Louisville Brad Salmon. The Reds need to be packaging a few of these relievers not bringing in more. In theory bringing in Reitsma on a minor league incentive based contract is good. Then I try like heck to trade Cormier, Majewski and a prospect or 2 to get a young up and coming rotation candidate. When the dead wood is cleared away, give a clear shot to the Burtons and Salmons of the world with a guy like Reitsma as a fallback.

I'm guessing a guaranteed major league deal for way too much money that will force the Reds to DFA another player is what will happen.

Sad but true...

Edd Roush
01-01-2007, 09:27 PM
Once again, I don't mind Krivsky bringing in Reitsma as long as it is to a responsible deal. If this deal is for one year and less than a million, I'm completely up for it. Another one of Wayne's low risk, potentially high reward moves. I don't mind Wayne throwing a bunch of relievers on the bullpen "wall" and seeing what sticks.

Furthermore, I don't mind having the Salmons and Burtons prove their worth to Wayne in Louisville. If they absolutely tear apart AAA hitting, they will get their shot in the majors. Wayne has been known to cut his losses before (Womack, Mays, etc.) and certainly not all of the veteran pitchers Wayne brings into Sarasota will make it out. I'd rather Salmon and Burton earn their spot in the bullpen, rather than have them inherit one.

If Reitsma is brought in for a dispensible cost, then I'm all for this move. However, Wayne shouldn't count on him being a significant contributor to the 2007 Reds.

mth123
01-01-2007, 09:32 PM
Furthermore, I don't mind having the Salmons and Burtons prove their worth to Wayne in Louisville. If they absolutely tear apart AAA hitting, they will get their shot in the majors. Wayne has been known to cut his losses before (Womack, Mays, etc.) and certainly not all of the veteran pitchers Wayne brings into Sarasota will make it out. I'd rather Salmon and Burton earn their spot in the bullpen, rather than have them inherit one.

Except he keeps spending money on things he already has or could pick-up for free, then tells us that the things he really needs cost too much.

RedsManRick
01-01-2007, 09:36 PM
Agreed. It's one thing to pay a few reliable major league veterans. But WK is so busy filling the pen with those guys that there's no room for legitimate, cheap in house options.

Dracodave
01-01-2007, 09:39 PM
Except he keeps spending money on things he already has or could pick-up for free, then tells us that the things he really needs cost too much.

Why sign something you to inflated prices when you can sign surplus of everything else to make up for it? Yeesh. Thats what Wayne is doing.

Falls City Beer
01-01-2007, 09:46 PM
Wonder if Wayne'll bring Randa out of retirement?

Edd Roush
01-01-2007, 09:53 PM
Agreed. It's one thing to pay a few reliable major league veterans. But WK is so busy filling the pen with those guys that there's no room for legitimate, cheap in house options.

However, as I said earlier, not all of those guys are going to be "reliable" next year. Some of them will have solid years, others will flame out. I would much rather have too much of something than not enough. As far as we know, Wayne hasn't hit a ceiling in his payroll. Outside of Craig Wilson, there isn't much out there on the free agent market that the Reds should be interested in.

The Suppans, Meches and Zitos are making way too much money for my taste. As I have said earlier, let's see Wayne build his pitching staff around the bullpen so that Narron won't have to lean too heavily on Harang and Arroyo's arm. It will also help Narron pull Lohse and Elizardo before they blow up late in the game.

I think this is Wayne's plan. And, while many on the board may not like it, I'm all up for it.

mth123
01-01-2007, 10:07 PM
However, as I said earlier, not all of those guys are going to be "reliable" next year. Some of them will have solid years, others will flame out. I would much rather have too much of something than not enough. As far as we know, Wayne hasn't hit a ceiling in his payroll. Outside of Craig Wilson, there isn't much out there on the free agent market that the Reds should be interested in.

The guys he signed are likely not reliable and the 1B he got will be no better against lefties than letting the inadequate option already on the roster play full time. Flushing money down the toilet isn't a good thing whether there is anything on the free agent market or not. Having the payroll room opens options in many areas including taking on a contract in trade or extending Harang and Dunn so that the window doesn't close on this team after 2008.

Edd Roush
01-01-2007, 10:16 PM
[QUOTE=mth123;1220510]The guys he signed are likely not reliable QUOTE]

Well, if one were to believe that, then one would also want Wayne to bring in as many options as possible, so the odds are greater for Wayne to find some adequate bullpen arms. I'm not saying that Reitsma, Weathers, etc are going to set the world on fire, but the good thing is, some of them may prove to have actual worth next year in the bullpen.

Furthermore, a good thing about bringing in relievers with one year contracts is that they are one time costs. If C. Zambrano or a similar elite free agent happen to have interest in coming to Cincinnati for '08, none of these contracts will impede the payroll for '08, therefore opening up money for Wayne to spend.

Granted, having a higher payroll will take away money that could be spent on extending Harang, Dunn or Arroyo. However, I have to believe that none of these small contracts pose a significant problem in doing so. I know all of the fodder that has been brought in adds up, but as far as most fans know, Castellini hasn't given Wayne a definate payroll celing.

I have to believe that if Harang or Dunn want to be here for the long haul, Krivsky will have the money to do so.

Dracodave
01-01-2007, 10:16 PM
[QUOTE=Edd Roush;1220503]However, as I said earlier, not all of those guys are going to be "reliable" next year. Some of them will have solid years, others will flame out. I would much rather have too much of something than not enough. As far as we know, Wayne hasn't hit a ceiling in his payroll. Outside of Craig Wilson, there isn't much out there on the free agent market that the Reds should be interested in. [QUOTE]

I don't even think Craig Wilson helps this team at this point.

We lack a good third and fourth starter, we'll have three fifth starters will out the rest of our rotation and instead of packaging the relievers up for unproven ml ready arms. Wayne is signing even more relievers.

Wheres our rotation headed but to the crap house? I like Reitsma, I think he could pan out as our closer, I really do. However right now, I would like to see someone get into the rotation first. If you build up good starting we don't need the boat load of overpaid sixth-seventh-eighth inning relievers. We won't need to worry about Harrang and Arroyos arm.

Why? Narron has two solid-pitchers. We have to ride them if we have an unstable bullpen and rotation. Let Harrang or Arroyo rest and guess what? Thats another lost due to bad management. You'll be screaming for Narrons head again.

Get alteast ONE decent starter, move Lohse/milton/ez into long relief and suddenly what could be wear and tear on Harrang and Arroyo is solved.

Next step - Get a right handed bat.
Step three - Get a closer (Unless he plans on Reitsma doing that)
Step Four - Pray the division still stays weak.

Edd Roush
01-01-2007, 10:27 PM
I don't even think Craig Wilson helps this team at this point.

.

Craig Wilson absolutely kills lefties. Career .938 OPS against lefties. He is a significant improvement over Conine. Craig Wilson would add another threat in our lineup.

Edd Roush
01-01-2007, 10:33 PM
Wheres our rotation headed but to the crap house? I like Reitsma, I think he could pan out as our closer, I really do. However right now, I would like to see someone get into the rotation first. If you build up good starting we don't need the boat load of overpaid sixth-seventh-eighth inning relievers. We won't need to worry about Harrang and Arroyos arm.



Yes, I agree with what you are saying here. But Wayne and most every one in baseball knows that good starting pitching is the hardest thing to find. Look at what the Red Sox paid for Matsazuka (sp?) and what they had to trade away for Josh Beckett. Good starting pitching is at a premium which makes the Arroyo trade even better.

Furthermore, some call for at least mediocre pitching. But I ask, is it worth giving an average pitcher a good pitcher's salary? Do we want to overpay like we did for Milton? If I were Wayne, I surely wouldn't. Wayne is looking for other ways to build up his pitching staff. It's a sellers market for pitchers and Wayne would have to give up a Dunn/Encarnacion/Bailey to get a good starting pitcher.

Sure, I want to see Wayne get better starters, but it just aint easy.

mth123
01-01-2007, 10:38 PM
Well, if one were to believe that, then one would also want Wayne to bring in as many options as possible, so the odds are greater for Wayne to find some adequate bullpen arms. I'm not saying that Reitsma, Weathers, etc are going to set the world on fire, but the good thing is, some of them may prove to have actual worth next year in the bullpen.

Its overkill and too many resources are tied up in mediocre relievers when the same amount could be spent on a difference maker.

I don't want to pay a collective $7.5 Million on a 3 guys who stink, especialy when they are old and not likely to be actual assets for the franchise even if they pitch well. If a younger guy pitches well he's a piece of the puzzle. If these other guys do, its a last hurrah.

Edd Roush
01-01-2007, 10:57 PM
I don't want to pay a collective $7.5 Million on a 3 guys who stink, especialy when they are old and not likely to be actual assets for the franchise even if they pitch well. If a younger guy pitches well he's a piece of the puzzle. If these other guys do, its a last hurrah.

Not to be rude, but where do you get this $7.5 million. I don't have the contracts right in front of me, so what three bad relievers do the Reds have whose contracts add up to $7.5 mill for next year?

However, to address your real point, if this is Weathers/Stanton/some one else's last hurrah, I think is Wayne's agenda with the '07 team. He has to know that this team isn't favored to win the division and especially not the Series (which should be every GMs goal), so he is likely trying to fill some holes with inexpensive veteran pieces to keep up fan interest. These guys aren't "pieces of the puzzle" but they are important to keep the Reds competitive for '07. Keeping the team competitive helps bring in revenue which can be used on the '08 team.

Again, this can all be refuted if these inexpensive signings are tying up money which could be allocated to long-term deals for Harang, Dunn and Encarnacion. However, I believe that these are all stop gap guys which are here to keep fan interest up and revenue flowing. These guys aren't pieces of the puzzle but still play a positive role on the '08 team.

mth123
01-01-2007, 11:13 PM
Not to be rude, but where do you get this $7.5 million. I don't have the contracts right in front of me, so what three bad relievers do the Reds have whose contracts add up to $7.5 mill for next year?

However, to address your real point, if this is Weathers/Stanton/some one else's last hurrah, I think is Wayne's agenda with the '07 team. He has to know that this team isn't favored to win the division and especially not the Series (which should be every GMs goal), so he is likely trying to fill some holes with inexpensive veteran pieces to keep up fan interest. These guys aren't "pieces of the puzzle" but they are important to keep the Reds competitive for '07. Keeping the team competitive helps bring in revenue which can be used on the '08 team.

Again, this can all be refuted if these inexpensive signings are tying up money which could be allocated to long-term deals for Harang, Dunn and Encarnacion. However, I believe that these are all stop gap guys which are here to keep fan interest up and revenue flowing. These guys aren't pieces of the puzzle but still play a positive role on the '08 team.

Weathers (2.5), Stanton (2.5), Cormier (2.25). Where we disagree is expected performance. I think these guys are no more likely to pitch well than cheaper options. So pay that money for a clear upgrade who actually is a solution or leave it alone and go with Shackleford, Salmon, Burton, Coutlangus, Pelland, etc. No room on the roster for any of them. Sign guys like Reitsma to minor league deals as insurance.

I do agree that having these vets might be contributing to the illusion that the Reds are trying to win and I guess that helps attendance. There is value in that I suppose.

Edd Roush
01-01-2007, 11:25 PM
Weathers (2.5), Stanton (2.5), Cormier (2.25). Where we disagree is expected performance. I think these guys are no more likely to pitch well than cheaper options. So pay that money for a clear upgrade who actually is a solution or leave it alone and go with Shackleford, Salmon, Burton, Coutlangus, Pelland, etc. No room on the roster for any of them. Sign guys like Reitsma to minor league deals as insurance.

I do agree that having these vets might be contributing to the illusion that the Reds are trying to win and I guess that helps attendance. There is value in that I suppose.

I agree that that 7.25 could be used differently for a better purpose, but IMO it's a lot better than plunking it down for one fifth of a four year contract to Suppan/Meche. That doesn't validate that spending, but I think that giving Reitsma a one year deal for less than a mill is much better than Stanton or Weathers. However, yes, I do think we do disagree on expected performance. I expect Weathers, Stanton and Cormier to perform at an average level for a reliever, while I don't think an unproven commodity such as Salmon, Burton, Pelland and Coutlangus could do.

I am not a pitching expert but I like the idea of having a bullpen full of arms rather than one bare of arms as it was in June and July last year. As I said earlier, I'd rather play it safe and bite that bullet if Weathers, Stanton, or Cormier flame out, rather than wishing they were Reds seeing them have solid years on other teams as the Reds' bullpen languishes.

7.25, sad as it is to say, isn't what it used to be. All three of these guys are likely a bit overpaid, but I'll pay that for the insurance that our bullpen won't blow as many games as it did last year.

Dracodave
01-01-2007, 11:26 PM
I understand the non-overpayment of mediore talent. Lilly, Meche, Marquis, Suppan etc all got over paid we understand that.

But what I am saying is this...

If we dont start paying for something though, except talent thats not going to help the team (Stanton, Cormier, Weathers) then we're going to come back to day one and ***** about why we didnt go after said expensive players.


No we don't need another Milton, but thats not what I'm asking for. I'm asking for our lovely GM to stop picking up these older players who may or may not ever help the reds.

Ron Madden
01-01-2007, 11:33 PM
Weathers (2.5), Stanton (2.5), Cormier (2.25). Where we disagree is expected performance. I think these guys are no more likely to pitch well than cheaper options. So pay that money for a clear upgrade who actually is a solution or leave it alone and go with Shackleford, Salmon, Burton, Coutlangus, Pelland, etc. No room on the roster for any of them. Sign guys like Reitsma to minor league deals as insurance.

I do agree that having these vets might be contributing to the illusion that the Reds are trying to win and I guess that helps attendance. There is value in that I suppose.

You have made some outstanding points in this thread MTH.

Nice job! :beerme:

Catch22
01-01-2007, 11:33 PM
Just call it a hunch, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Reitsma will not be back with the Reds.

Just a hunch :)

Edd Roush
01-01-2007, 11:35 PM
If we dont start paying for something though, except talent thats not going to help the team (Stanton, Cormier, Weathers) then we're going to come back to day one and ***** about why we didnt go after said expensive players.


No we don't need another Milton, but thats not what I'm asking for. I'm asking for our lovely GM to stop picking up these older players who may or may not ever help the reds.

I disagree with the majority of this post. While some fans complain about the Reds not being able to go out and spend like the Cubs or Yankees, the Reds don't have the revenue base that those clubs have. Chicago and New York is a much easier place to make money than Cincinnati. The Reds do need to go out and get expensive players, but they have to be more selective, because they can't afford to overpay too many players.

Wayne has gone out and given out expensive contracts. Look at Dunn. I hope he can extend Dunn once again and also go out and extend Harang.

Furthermore, I don't think Krivsky is looking to build his team around little pieces like Weathers, Stanton, Cormier or Conine. They are just temporary parts that have a good chance of making the Rhinelanders more competitive in '07.

Dracodave
01-01-2007, 11:50 PM
I think you are missing my point, I dont want the Reds to spend like the Cubs and Yankees do. I want the Reds to spend and actually upgrade the team for awhile.

Thus said take the combined money from Cormier Stanton and Weathers, give that to Dunn and Harrang over the course of their LTC's.

Take Cormiers money and sign Armas, Piniero or Williams.
Save Stanton and Weathers money by giving Salmon, Pelland, Livingsting and Burton a chance.

Or use the combine money of them to sign Craig Wilson. Platoon Wilson and Hatteburg or just Use Wilson in rightfield. Does it matter?

There WERE other ways of improving the team then what Krivisky did. Thats my point.

It's not how much you spend, its where you spend it at.

Guys like Stanton, Weathers and Cormier are not the answer. When younger and cheaper guys are out there for the taking.

Wheelhouse
01-02-2007, 02:00 AM
Please no Reitsma. Minor league deal ONLY, if at all.

redsmetz
01-02-2007, 09:49 AM
I think you are missing my point, I dont want the Reds to spend like the Cubs and Yankees do. I want the Reds to spend and actually upgrade the team for awhile.

Thus said take the combined money from Cormier Stanton and Weathers, give that to Dunn and Harrang over the course of their LTC's.

Take Cormiers money and sign Armas, Piniero or Williams.
Save Stanton and Weathers money by giving Salmon, Pelland, Livingsting and Burton a chance.

Or use the combine money of them to sign Craig Wilson. Platoon Wilson and Hatteburg or just Use Wilson in rightfield. Does it matter?

There WERE other ways of improving the team then what Krivisky did. Thats my point.

It's not how much you spend, its where you spend it at.

Guys like Stanton, Weathers and Cormier are not the answer. When younger and cheaper guys are out there for the taking.

Of course, such a scenario assumes that any of these particular players are interested in actually coming and playing for the Reds. Even if we meet their dollar demands, maybe they're not interested in playing here given the playing time they'll find or how they'll be used as a pitcher (wants to be a starter vs. being used as a reliever), etc.

We can conjecture all we want, but we have no idea what these players intentions are, so it's too simple to suggest we could have done this or not have done that, and so on.

Johnny Footstool
01-02-2007, 10:47 AM
Of course, such a scenario assumes that any of these particular players are interested in actually coming and playing for the Reds. Even if we meet their dollar demands, maybe they're not interested in playing here given the playing time they'll find or how they'll be used as a pitcher (wants to be a starter vs. being used as a reliever), etc.

We can conjecture all we want, but we have no idea what these players intentions are, so it's too simple to suggest we could have done this or not have done that, and so on.

The Royals showed that if you can throw enough money at an in-demand player like Gil Meche, he'll play for you.

Not that I'm defending the Gil Meche signing, but it does show that virtually any given team is capable of signing any given player.

Edd Roush
01-02-2007, 10:50 AM
The Royals showed that if you can throw enough money at an in-demand player like Gil Meche, he'll play for you.

Not that I'm defending the Gil Meche signing, but it does show that virtually any given team is capable of signing any given player.

In-demand? I don't know how many teams were actually interested in Gil Meche. The Meche situation seems eerily familiar to the Milton signing. Sure, Milton came to Cincinnati that Meche went to K.C., money! There may have been other teams interested in Meche as there was for Milton, but most pitching hungry GMs knew they aren't worth the buck. Overypaying is not the solution.

Johnny Footstool
01-02-2007, 11:33 AM
In-demand? I don't know how many teams were actually interested in Gil Meche. The Meche situation seems eerily familiar to the Milton signing. Sure, Milton came to Cincinnati that Meche went to K.C., money! There may have been other teams interested in Meche as there was for Milton, but most pitching hungry GMs knew they aren't worth the buck. Overypaying is not the solution.

The Cubs and Blue Jays both allegedly offered Meche about $10 million a year for 4 years. So yes, other teams were interested. The Royals offered more, and Meche took the money.

That's the whole point -- players tend to care more about money than location. Throw enough cash at a player, and he'll sign.

Ltlabner
01-02-2007, 12:08 PM
Take Cormiers money and sign Armas, Piniero or Williams. Save Stanton and Weathers money by giving Salmon, Pelland, Livingsting and Burton a chance.

While I generally agree with your point that they could have used the money better, I wonder if they decided to "give the youngsters" a chance if BCast and Krivsky would be hung from the yard arm because they were taking the "cheap-skate" option or that they promsied to compete and were now "singnalling they aren't serrious by going with the AAA chaff".

Something about nailed if you do.....

flyer85
01-02-2007, 12:19 PM
seems to be thoroughly unexciting news.

Red Leader
01-02-2007, 01:25 PM
Just call it a hunch, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Reitsma will not be back with the Reds.

Just a hunch :)

Thanks, catch.

Where ever Chris ends up, I wish him the best.

Personally, I don't think his returning to Cincinnati is such a good idea for either party. We have too many bullpen arms already and I think they'd put Chris in a position that is not best suited for his needs. I think Chris would be more successful somewhere else.

RedsManRick
01-02-2007, 01:31 PM
Raise your hand if you think Chris Reitsma is a better option than Brad Salmon. Salmon is currently about 9th on the depth chart. We don't need more pitchers -- we need better pitchers. The volume approach only works if the guys you bring in have the potential to be those better pitchers. Filling a bullpen with low ceiling talent just makes a bloated roster that prevents the cream from rising to the top.

It's one thing to bring in guys on NRI deals. But he's not likely going to simply cut Stanton, Majewski, Cormier, etc. if they underperform. I think the best case scenario, assuming we're not in contention, is that Krivsky flips the veteran guys for prospects in July and the younger guys get a chance to prove if they're going to be contributors or not.

flyer85
01-02-2007, 01:46 PM
We don't need more pitchers -- we need better pitchers. ... and the Reds haven't acquired clearly better ones.

MartyFan
01-02-2007, 03:09 PM
RedsManRick: I think you are onto something when you write:


It's one thing to bring in guys on NRI deals. But he's not likely going to simply cut Stanton, Majewski, Cormier, etc. if they underperform. I think the best case scenario, assuming we're not in contention, is that Krivsky flips the veteran guys for prospects in July and the younger guys get a chance to prove if they're going to be contributors or not.

I think this team, as is can play in our division. The ONLY team that is in the plus over where they were last season is Chicago and frankly, look at what they paid just to set the team up to be sold.

If you look at my signature line it includes a quote from Special K talking about how it's not always the sexy deals...anyway, no doubt Stanton, Cormier, etc are not sexy deals but like you have pointed out they can be flipped for ML talent in July if need be.

THE MOST important thing this organization can do is rebuild it's ML system to the degreee that it is producing 2-4 MLB ready prospects every year...that's a machine. Ya gotta think out of the box to accomplish this...it may seem two steps forward to take three steps back but that is my take on it.

roby
01-03-2007, 01:56 AM
Its overkill and too many resources are tied up in mediocre relievers when the same amount could be spent on a difference maker.

I don't want to pay a collective $7.5 Million on a 3 guys who stink, especialy when they are old and not likely to be actual assets for the franchise even if they pitch well. If a younger guy pitches well he's a piece of the puzzle. If these other guys do, its a last hurrah.

I absolutely agree! Not to mention that all of these old guys with guaranteed contracts block the way for some of the younger guys to prove what they might be able to do. If the ebst the Reds can do is spend (overspend!) on old, over-the-hill players...then take a pass on the year, give the youngsters a look and see what you may have. Save the money for when you plan to win...if ever. :rolleyes:

Ron Madden
01-03-2007, 03:16 AM
[QUOTE=MartyFan;
If you look at my signature line it includes a quote from Special K talking about how it's not always the sexy deals...anyway, no doubt Stanton, Cormier, etc are not sexy deals but like you have pointed out they can be flipped for ML talent in July if need be.


I'm not picking on you here Marty...but these old guys have a very real chance (to suck) put up well Below replacement numbers.

If and when that happens, not so Special K will have a hard time finding anorher GM willing to make the same mistake. Flipping them will be darn near impossible.

Aronchis
01-03-2007, 03:35 AM
[QUOTE=MartyFan;
If you look at my signature line it includes a quote from Special K talking about how it's not always the sexy deals...anyway, no doubt Stanton, Cormier, etc are not sexy deals but like you have pointed out they can be flipped for ML talent in July if need be.


I'm not picking on you here Marty...but these old guys have a very real chance (to suck) put up well Below replacement numbers.

If and when that happens, not so Special K will have a hard time finding anorher GM willing to make the same mistake. Flipping them will be darn near impossible.

Yup, then they will just be released. The ones that still produce will be traded. Easy as pie.

Ron Madden
01-03-2007, 03:46 AM
Time will tell.

Don't be shocked with the results. ;)

MartyFan
01-03-2007, 07:10 AM
[QUOTE=MartyFan;
If you look at my signature line it includes a quote from Special K talking about how it's not always the sexy deals...anyway, no doubt Stanton, Cormier, etc are not sexy deals but like you have pointed out they can be flipped for ML talent in July if need be.


I'm not picking on you here Marty...but these old guys have a very real chance (to suck) put up well Below replacement numbers.

If and when that happens, not so Special K will have a hard time finding anorher GM willing to make the same mistake. Flipping them will be darn near impossible.

No worries, I don't feel picked on. It's just a thought.

They have a very real chance to suck and they have a very real chance to shine...when Junior was brought to Cincy this board was lit up with talk of he and Larkin taking us to the WS...well, how'd that work out?

All I am saying is that Special K may be building a team that cna be sold for parts...I know these guys are old...older anyway, I don't want to make myself feel so bad :) But with the ML system being pretty well empty over the last several years and only a fewprospects on the horizon, the better bet is to buy old, sell for young talent who has the potential to blossom.

All of this is just speculation by you, me or anyone else on this board who isn't named Krivsky or "Mr. C". It's fun to do and at the end of the day, it's just baseball....okay, it's not but I have to tell that to myself so I don't breakdown.