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Team Clark
01-03-2007, 03:46 PM
RALEIGH, N.C. -- Duke University has invited two of the lacrosse players accused of sexual assault to return to school as students in good standing, a defense attorney said Wednesday.

Collin Finnerty and Reade Seligmann had been barred from attending class during the fall semester while their case made its way through court. The third player charged in the case, Dave Evans, graduated in May, the day before he was charged with raping a stripper at a team party in March.

Rape charges against all three players were dropped last month, after the accuser said she could no longer remember some details about the case. The men are still charged with sexual assault and kidnapping.

"As circumstances have evolved in this extraordinary case, we have attempted to balance recognition of the gravity of legal charges with the presumption of your innocence," Larry Moneta, Duke's vice president for student affairs said in a letter to Seligmann dated Jan. 2.

"Now with the approach of a new term, we believe that circumstances warrant that we strike this balance differently. At this point, continued extension of the administrative leave would do unwarranted harm to your educational progress."



Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press

What about the jerks who protested on those players' lawn and claimed their guilt before one shred of evidence was gathered? Should they be allowed to go to class? I'd be confronting every single one of them I could recognize.

Razor Shines
01-03-2007, 07:44 PM
What about the jerks who protested on those players' lawn and claimed their guilt before one shred of evidence was gathered? Should they be allowed to go to class? I'd be confronting every single one of them I could recognize.
That would just make it worse. These guys got hosed, no doubt about it, but it happens to some people. And most likely this is something they'll be recognized for for the rest of their lives, or atleast for a long time. But being bitter and angry about it could really ruin their lives.

GAC
01-03-2007, 09:50 PM
Mike Nifong, a renegade DA, is an idiot and should be disciplined by the state bar association for his conduct during this whole situation.

edabbs44
01-03-2007, 10:24 PM
I would transfer to UNC.

Mutaman
01-04-2007, 01:28 AM
Oh boy, politics. What i don't understand is why the Duke case is such a cause celeb with the Right Wing in this country. I mean I'm as much for due process as the next guy, but its not like the first time a prosecutor has had to withdraw a case against somebody. And there have been plenty of innocent people who have been wrongly accused in this country without a fraction of the indignation that most of the reactionary bloggers have expressed about the Duke affair. I just don't have a lot of sympathy for a bunch of spoiled rich frat boys who seem to have a history of not being able to hold their liquor.

Anyhow, give Henry Waxman a few months. I suspect the Durham DA won't be the only elected official around facing disciplinary charges.

KoryMac5
01-04-2007, 01:38 AM
I feel like the only person who got hosed in this deal was the former coach of the Lacrosse team who had to resign as a result of this mess.

MWM
01-04-2007, 01:49 AM
..

George Foster
01-04-2007, 02:19 AM
Let me get this straight. If your rich it's ok to accuse you of rape. I mean come on....your rich. It's ok to kick you out of school before you are convicted of anything, because you know...your rich. We are not going to feel sorry for you, about anything that happens to you because as you know...your rich. If you do some stupid things in college and have student loans your just being a kid. If your rich, your a spoiled brat...I get it now:thumbup:

Let him who has not done something stupid in college or has not participated in underage drinking please stand up.

How would you like to be charged with rape at age 20, just because you had a couple of beers at a "stag party?" One of the boys charged, was not even at the party at the time of the strippers coming to the house. He took a taxi to a McDonalds, has a Credit Card receipt, and records of him using his student ID card to enter his dorm room. Is he a spoiled rich brat as well?

MWM
01-04-2007, 02:46 AM
.

Razor Shines
01-04-2007, 03:05 AM
Guess I'll erase mine too then.

Mutaman
01-04-2007, 04:49 AM
[QUOTE=George Foster;1221679]Let me get this straight. If your rich it's ok to accuse you of rape.

How would you like to be charged with rape at age 20, just because you had a couple of beers at a "stag party?" QUOTE]


Dam the logic, full spleen ahead. Whatever happened at this stag party, very few people dispute that it involved more than a few fun loving college kids having a couple of beers. In fact members of the Duke La Crosse Team had been out of control for quite some time- they had been involved in 36 on campus incidents since 2003 (SI, 6/06). Fifteen players have been cited by Durham police for offenses over the last three years. One of them had been charged with assulting a man for being a homosexual. One of the players apparently sent an e-mail after the party saying he wanted to invite more strippers to his dorm room, kill them and skin them.

Many Duke authorities felt that this situation boiled over because the teams coach too often looked the other way. "Do you think [Duke basketball coach] Mike Krzyzewski would've put up with this s--- for five seconds?" says one university official. "The answer is no." (SI,June 2006).

Does such dangerous out of control conduct justify false accusations by government authorities? Of course not.

If these kids suffered damages, should they be allowed to pursue their remedies? Of course they should and most of them have the means to do so. My bet is they won't because its in their interest to let sleeping dogs lie.

So while I'd like to feel sympathy for these poor damaged kids ( I mean you spend $1,600 for a couple of strippers to show up at your party and this is what you get for your investment), I have a feeling they will make out just fine.

RedsBaron
01-04-2007, 07:46 AM
Mike Nifong, a renegade DA, is an idiot and should be disciplined by the state bar association for his conduct during this whole situation.

He is under investigation. That investigation should be allowed to take its course, but it certainly appears that Nifong was playing politics when he charged the players; if he knowingly withheld evidence, as has been alleged, he should be disbarred IMO.

Ltlabner
01-04-2007, 07:54 AM
In fact members of the Duke La Crosse Team had been out of control for quite some time- they had been involved in 36 on campus incidents since 2003 (SI, 6/06). fine.

So therefore it's ok to rush to judgement on rape charges?

These guys may be grade A, olympic class jerkwads. Doesn't change the fact they are entitled to the same due process as Mr. Rogers.

I guess I missed the memo that says, "if you have some money in your bank account you are guilty before proven innocent and you are a by definition a scumbag".

Team Clark
01-04-2007, 09:17 AM
Let me get this straight. If your rich it's ok to accuse you of rape. I mean come on....your rich. It's ok to kick you out of school before you are convicted of anything, because you know...your rich. We are not going to feel sorry for you, about anything that happens to you because as you know...your rich. If you do some stupid things in college and have student loans your just being a kid. If your rich, your a spoiled brat...I get it now:thumbup:

Let him who has not done something stupid in college or has not participated in underage drinking please stand up.

How would you like to be charged with rape at age 20, just because you had a couple of beers at a "stag party?" One of the boys charged, was not even at the party at the time of the strippers coming to the house. He took a taxi to a McDonalds, has a Credit Card receipt, and records of him using his student ID card to enter his dorm room. Is he a spoiled rich brat as well?

Great points. Really brings this summation of this case to light. Nifong used this case to get re-elected and now he's going to get exposed for it.

I should have further explained my comments about confronting them. I would confront them to ask for an apology. I wouldn't bein their grill screaming or anything, just the satisfaction of an apology.

WVRed
01-04-2007, 10:47 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/anotherloseranthem/motivator2309a979e7326b65bd9a691bd5.jpg


I would transfer to UNC.

If you've ever read any stories by Tucker Max, you know why UNC is a better school than Duke.:beerme:

Razor Shines
01-04-2007, 01:38 PM
Dam the logic, full spleen ahead. Whatever happened at this stag party, very few people dispute that it involved more than a few fun loving college kids having a couple of beers. In fact members of the Duke La Crosse Team had been out of control for quite some time- they had been involved in 36 on campus incidents since 2003 (SI, 6/06). Fifteen players have been cited by Durham police for offenses over the last three years. One of them had been charged with assulting a man for being a homosexual. One of the players apparently sent an e-mail after the party saying he wanted to invite more strippers to his dorm room, kill them and skin them.
Ok so you've never quoted things from a movie that you didn't actually mean, just messing around with your friends? Because I'm pretty sure that's from American Psycho.



Does such dangerous out of control conduct justify false accusations by government authorities? Of course not.
I do agree that they put themselves in that position and if it were my son I'd be plenty pissed at him.

Razor Shines
01-04-2007, 01:46 PM
He is under investigation. That investigation should be allowed to take its course, but it certainly appears that Nifong was playing politics when he charged the players; if he knowingly withheld evidence, as has been alleged, he should be disbarred IMO.

Well as of two months ago he admitted in court that he had not actually interviewed the accuser about the events of that night. He said he'd talked to her but not about what happened that night. And while I don't think that's breaking any law, it does seem extremely lazy at the very least.

George Foster
01-04-2007, 02:01 PM
You should not be allowed to erase your post because someone "won the debate." That's cowardly.:thumbdown

George Foster
01-04-2007, 02:10 PM
[QUOTE=George Foster;1221679]Let me get this straight. If your rich it's ok to accuse you of rape.

How would you like to be charged with rape at age 20, just because you had a couple of beers at a "stag party?" QUOTE]


Dam the logic, full spleen ahead. Whatever happened at this stag party, very few people dispute that it involved more than a few fun loving college kids having a couple of beers. In fact members of the Duke La Crosse Team had been out of control for quite some time- they had been involved in 36 on campus incidents since 2003 (SI, 6/06). Fifteen players have been cited by Durham police for offenses over the last three years. One of them had been charged with assulting a man for being a homosexual. One of the players apparently sent an e-mail after the party saying he wanted to invite more strippers to his dorm room, kill them and skin them.

Many Duke authorities felt that this situation boiled over because the teams coach too often looked the other way. "Do you think [Duke basketball coach] Mike Krzyzewski would've put up with this s--- for five seconds?" says one university official. "The answer is no." (SI,June 2006).

Does such dangerous out of control conduct justify false accusations by government authorities? Of course not.

If these kids suffered damages, should they be allowed to pursue their remedies? Of course they should and most of them have the means to do so. My bet is they won't because its in their interest to let sleeping dogs lie.

So while I'd like to feel sympathy for these poor damaged kids ( I mean you spend $1,600 for a couple of strippers to show up at your party and this is what you get for your investment), I have a feeling they will make out just fine.

I agree these guys obviously did not attend Sunday school, but A does not
=B. Just because your a rich jerk, does not mean you can get charged with rape, and people should have the attitude "you got what was coming to you." Thats just a wrong attitude to have. If you have that attitude, you have some issues of bitterness towards people with more money than yourself.

WMR
01-04-2007, 02:15 PM
It's alright. There's a contingent of liberals out there who have made it their personal goal to carry political correctness to its logical conclusion and make anyone who has achieved any measure of success in their lives somehow not worthy of the same rights and protections afforded the F-ups of the world.

dsmith421
01-04-2007, 02:32 PM
It's alright. There's a contingent of liberals out there who have made it their personal goal to carry political correctness to its logical conclusion and make anyone who has achieved any measure of success in their lives somehow not worthy of the same rights and protections afforded the F-ups of the world.

Or, Nifong is just a bad guy.

Personally, I think everyone in this scenario (DA, players, "entertainers") are world-class piles of crap and I wish it would just be resolved through the courts and go the hell away.

Nifong should be disbarred and removed from office.
The players should be entitled to pursue their remedies against the strippers (although there is no money there, they can at least get legal vindication which counts for a lot) and the school.
The coach should be allowed to go after the school for wrongful termination.
The strippers should be subject to criminal charges for filing false police reports.
The players can go back to being the same sort of disgusting privileged meatheads they were before the incident.

What people don't need to do is use it to make blanket assumptions about "liberals" or "reactionaries" or use it as a way to paint sexual assault victims as liars.

We had a situation in Nevada where the governor-elect was accused of sexual assault for attacking a woman in a parking garage after hammering about a million glasses of wine at a Vegas restaurant. He got off, largely because his rich friends (aka political donors) in the Clark County DA's office, on the editorial board of the LV Review-Journal and elsewhere covered it up (including "misplacing" the security video for two weeks) and turned it into a blame the victim spectacle, using this Duke debacle as justification. Now, that's disgusting.

WMR
01-04-2007, 02:51 PM
Or, Nifong is just a bad guy.

Personally, I think everyone in this scenario (DA, players, "entertainers") are world-class piles of crap and I wish it would just be resolved through the courts and go the hell away.

Nifong should be disbarred and removed from office.
The players should be entitled to pursue their remedies against the strippers (although there is no money there, they can at least get legal vindication which counts for a lot) and the school.
The coach should be allowed to go after the school for wrongful termination.
The strippers should be subject to criminal charges for filing false police reports.
The players can go back to being the same sort of disgusting privileged meatheads they were before the incident.

What people don't need to do is use it to make blanket assumptions about "liberals" or "reactionaries" or use it as a way to paint sexual assault victims as liars.

We had a situation in Nevada where the governor-elect was accused of sexual assault for attacking a woman in a parking garage after hammering about a million glasses of wine at a Vegas restaurant. He got off, largely because his rich friends (aka political donors) in the Clark County DA's office, on the editorial board of the LV Review-Journal and elsewhere covered it up (including "misplacing" the security video for two weeks) and turned it into a blame the victim spectacle, using this Duke debacle as justification. Now, that's disgusting.

The issues I was addressing are larger and much more systemic in American culture rather than any sort of implied blanket commentary on sexual assault victims.

Mutaman
01-04-2007, 02:56 PM
Let me make this perfectly clear. I have no problems with rich people. Hell, some of my best friends are rich people. It's the Republicans I have a problem with.

paintmered
01-04-2007, 03:20 PM
Ahem.....

Political discussion and flash photography are prohibited inside the thread.

BRM
01-04-2007, 03:28 PM
Ahem.....

Political discussion and flash photography are prohibited inside the thread.

OK fine...I'll put the camera away. :)

WMR
01-04-2007, 03:29 PM
Let me make this perfectly clear. I have no problems with rich people. Hell, some of my best friends are rich people. It's the Republicans I have a problem with.

I'm a libertarian and I dislike them both nowadays. Without creating a political debate, it's just really amazing how the Republican party has changed the past 25 or so years.

Team Clark
01-04-2007, 03:33 PM
Or, Nifong is just a bad guy.

Personally, I think everyone in this scenario (DA, players, "entertainers") are world-class piles of crap and I wish it would just be resolved through the courts and go the hell away.

Nifong should be disbarred and removed from office.
The players should be entitled to pursue their remedies against the strippers (although there is no money there, they can at least get legal vindication which counts for a lot) and the school.
The coach should be allowed to go after the school for wrongful termination.
The strippers should be subject to criminal charges for filing false police reports.
The players can go back to being the same sort of disgusting privileged meatheads they were before the incident.

What people don't need to do is use it to make blanket assumptions about "liberals" or "reactionaries" or use it as a way to paint sexual assault victims as liars.

We had a situation in Nevada where the governor-elect was accused of sexual assault for attacking a woman in a parking garage after hammering about a million glasses of wine at a Vegas restaurant. He got off, largely because his rich friends (aka political donors) in the Clark County DA's office, on the editorial board of the LV Review-Journal and elsewhere covered it up (including "misplacing" the security video for two weeks) and turned it into a blame the victim spectacle, using this Duke debacle as justification. Now, that's disgusting.


I certainly agree with the Mods that we need to keep the Political Discussion out of this conversation. A bit difficult I know, but not impossible.

Rich, Poor, Black, White, whatever we can discuss this without an agenda.

I started this thread because this subject has bothered me something awful and I am glad these kids are getting some justification. I was leary of the charges in the beginning because of the lack of evidence. Not to say I was right or anything like that. Just because I didn't "hear" or "see" anything did not equal a hill of beans. I reserved judgement on any one of the LAX players or the strippers because I know that I was in no way Privy to the Investigation or the evidence. NOW, that the information is coming out in a factual manner I can make a better informed opinion.

They may still be guilty of crimes but it is becoming more and more clear that a "rape" did not take place. I do find it strange that the Crimes they are still being charged with carry the same or worse penalties.

WMR
01-04-2007, 03:36 PM
I certainly agree with the Mods that we need to keep the Political Discussion out of this conversation. A bit difficult I know, but not impossible.

Rich, Poor, Black, White, whatever we can discuss this without an agenda.

I started this thread because this subject has bothered me something awful and I am glad these kids are getting some justification. I was leary of the charges in the beginning because of the lack of evidence. Not to say I was right or anything like that. Just because I didn't "hear" or "see" anything did not equal a hill of beans. I reserved judgement on any one of the LAX players or the strippers because I know that I was in no way Privy to the Investigation or the evidence. NOW, that the information is coming out in a factual manner I can make a better informed opinion.

They may still be guilty of crimes but it is becoming more and more clear that a "rape" did not take place. I do find it strange that the Crimes they are still being charged with carry the same or worse penalties.

It's called "CYA." ;)

The prosecutor doesn't want to get disbarred, getting ANYTHING against these guys would go a long way towards ensuring that doesn't happen.

I think he's up S-creek w/o a paddle. JMO.

Team Clark
01-04-2007, 03:37 PM
I'm a libertarian and I dislike them both nowadays. Without creating a political debate, it's just really amazing how the Republican party has changed the past 25 or so years.

Just think what the Federalists and the Labour Party would say...:laugh:

Team Clark
01-04-2007, 03:38 PM
It's called "CYA." ;)

The prosecutor doesn't want to get disbarred, getting ANYTHING against these guys would go a long way towards ensuring that doesn't happen.

I think he's up S-creek w/o a paddle. JMO.

I bet he's mighty PO'd that the LAB came out against him. Doooh!! Makes you wonder how many times that he has ordered that same lab to do it in the past. As Velma would say "Jinkies"...

dsmith421
01-04-2007, 03:41 PM
I think he's up S-creek w/o a paddle. JMO.

If he falsified information, then he deserves whatever he gets. Personally, I'm especially disgusted because I'm an attorney in public service and this makes all of us look bad by extension. Believe me when I say that the NC disciplinary committee will take this extremely seriously and will not hesitate to end this guy's career if the allegations are proven.

However, at this stage, it seems like those most willing to discount the allegations made against the players initially are the ones most willing to jump on allegations of impropriety against the DA. As I said at the beginning, people need to let the process work.

dsmith421
01-04-2007, 03:45 PM
The issues I was addressing are larger and much more systemic in American culture rather than any sort of implied blanket commentary on sexual assault victims.

I don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. I'm a liberal and am extremely successful in my career. I am not, to my knowledge, trying to tear down myself.

Making blanket statements about whole groups of people based upon their shrillest and loudest exemplars (or a moron DA in Durham, NC grandstanding for votes) is just dumb.

WMR
01-04-2007, 03:55 PM
I agree with you, which is why I said "contingent."

Mutaman
01-04-2007, 04:33 PM
II started this thread because this subject has bothered me something awful and I am glad these kids are getting some justification. .


If the Duke case bothers you, check out the Scottsboro Boys, it'll really drive you crazy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scottsboro_Boys

Team Clark
01-04-2007, 04:37 PM
If the Duke case bothers you, check out the Scottsboro Boys, it'll really drive you crazy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scottsboro_Boys

WOW! Thanks for the link.

Jaycint
01-04-2007, 04:54 PM
If the Duke case bothers you, check out the Scottsboro Boys, it'll really drive you crazy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scottsboro_Boys

SHOCKING! It goes BOTH ways!

dabvu2498
01-04-2007, 04:57 PM
SHOCKING! It goes BOTH ways!

Or it has nothing to do with race:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innocent_Man

Jaycint
01-04-2007, 05:27 PM
If the Duke case bothers you, check out the Scottsboro Boys, it'll really drive you crazy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scottsboro_Boys

And if that one shocks you this one will too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawana_Brawley

Ltlabner
01-04-2007, 08:35 PM
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=4905060

While not directly related in the sexual assualt issue, a different lacrosse player says, "let the law suits begin!".

George Foster
01-04-2007, 11:56 PM
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=4905060

While not directly related in the sexual assualt issue, a different lacrosse player says, "let the law suits begin!".

And nothing will happen to the professor...they are allowed to do and say anything they want. Duke University changing their grade to a passing grade is the smoking gun. Those two guys will get a check from Duke University, and rightly so.

RedsBaron
04-11-2007, 10:11 PM
And now all charges have been dropped. I am a 1979 graduate of Duke Law School. I am ashamed of Duke and how it prejudged these students.

Team Clark
04-12-2007, 05:04 PM
And now all charges have been dropped. I am a 1979 graduate of Duke Law School. I am ashamed of Duke and how it prejudged these students.

I'd like to know where the apologies are from the "rights" groups that marched on their lawn with WANTED posters. Where are those self righteous jerks?

dougdirt
04-12-2007, 05:28 PM
I'd like to know where the apologies are from the "rights" groups that marched on their lawn with WANTED posters. Where are those self righteous jerks?

probably protesting in front of the science building because they use animals in testing.....

GAC
04-12-2007, 09:23 PM
No one has said that these college frat boys were angels. So what if they were spoiled rich kids who had a keg party, and hired some strippers. Yeah, like that is an aberration or "first" at college. :rolleyes:

And it has nothing to do with any particular political party. Anyone who even tries to inject that is being simply ridiculous. I don't care who you are you are, or what your ideology is. It doesn't matter, and is inconsequential.

The fact of the matter is that these boys were falsely charged with rape, assault, and kidnapping charges by an overzealous public prosecutor who, IMHO, made a rush to judgment for his own personal gain, and should be disbarred for his handling of this whole situation. It's disgusting and a disgrace what he did.

RedsBaron
04-13-2007, 08:11 AM
The fact of the matter is that these boys were falsely charged with rape, assault, and kidnapping charges by an overzealous public prosecutor who, IMHO, made a rush to judgment for his own personal gain, and should be disbarred for his handling of this whole situation. It's disgusting and a disgrace what he did.

I agree.
What disgusts me about Duke University is that while this whole sorry episode is hardly the first time people have rushed to judgment, a university should be expected to meet a somewhat higher standard, rather than suspending students who, as it turned out, were innocent of the criminal charges. This is not to defend in any way the figurative, to say nothing of the real, lynch mobs of the past, but do we really need 88 professors forming a lynch mob?

cincinnati chili
04-13-2007, 08:29 AM
Once again, I realize the moderators have a difficult job here, but I still have yet to figure out why certain obviously political threads like this one are allowed to remain open, while other one that have merely a scintilla political potential potential-yet are highly relevant to the interests of people on this board, the City of Cincinnati, the Reds, etc.-are shut down at the first or second post.

Having said that, so long as this thread remains open, I'd like to weigh in.

It now is looking like the DA clearly lacked the evidence to bring this case, and certainly not in the cavalier way he brought it.

I have less of a problem with the way Duke has handled the matter. Did we forget about this email sent the night of the incident?:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke1.html
Given the incidents involving the lacrosse team in the past, and circumstantial evidence like this, I have no problem with the school finding this to be the last straw and 1. canceling the team's season and 2. suspending the 2 indicted players, pending resolution of their criminal charges.

Hopefully the 2 players being exonerated will not embolden the team to once again engage in the nonsense that has terrorized the Duke campus and alienated people in the city of Durham in the past.

RedsBaron
04-13-2007, 08:38 AM
Disgusting e-mail yes, an e-mail warranting investigation and discipline yes as well---but I don't believe that the alleged author of the e-mail was one of the lacrosse players who were indicted. I therefore do not believe that e-mail provides any support for the decision of Duke to kick other lacrosse players out of school.
I offer no defense for the character of any of the lacrosse players--maybe they are all louses. I still maintain that a university and 88 professors should be expected to rise above the standards of a lynch mob. If that's "political", so be it.

GAC
04-13-2007, 09:30 AM
I agree.
What disgusts me about Duke University is that while this whole sorry episode is hardly the first time people have rushed to judgment, a university should be expected to meet a somewhat higher standard, rather than suspending students who, as it turned out, were innocent of the criminal charges. This is not to defend in any way the figurative, to say nothing of the real, lynch mobs of the past, but do we really need 88 professors forming a lynch mob?

Oh yeah. I thought one was innocent until proven guilty? The college should have took no action until after a trial/verdict. It will be interesting to see if or any lawsuits are brought and against whom? ;)

And while I fully understand the point you are trying to make chili, I don't see where this thread is political at all. I think the mods true intent in banning political/religious threads/discussions was aimed more at the overt partisan fighting and bickering. I really don't see where that is the case in this situation.

I think the mods have done a solid job as of late to allow various discussions to evolve and even go pretty far before "pulling the trigger" and then shutting them down.

Jaycint
04-13-2007, 11:07 AM
I think the mods have done a solid job as of late to allow various discussions to evolve and even go pretty far before "pulling the trigger" and then shutting them down.

Slight derail but I miss the good old days when we could talk about whatever over on this side of the board. I know the peanut gallery is only a click away but it just doesn't "feel" the same.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

GAC
04-13-2007, 11:08 AM
Slight derail but I miss the good old days when we could talk about whatever over on this side of the board. I know the peanut gallery is only a click away but it just doesn't "feel" the same.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

You didn't have to moderate it though. ;)

It was getting way out of hand.

Jaycint
04-13-2007, 11:09 AM
You didn't have to moderate it though. ;)


Very true. I wouldn't wish that job on anyone. :laugh:

Chip R
04-13-2007, 11:11 AM
I think a lot of people are feeling pretty high and mighty about this now. Here are a bunch of college kids that were wrongfully accused of a crime and now that they have been exonerated, people are jumping right on their bandwagon - some of these are the same people who were calling for these kids to be thrown in jail even before they were tried. How dare the DA and the school assume these kids are guilty before they are even tried. But that happens all the time. Some football or basketball player is arrested and they are immediately suspended from the team and some are even kicked out of school even before they are tried. They are automatically guilty in the court of public opinion. Most of the time, yes, they are guilty but it sure seemed that these Duke Lacrosse players were guilty when everything broke. The difference is that these Duke kids were affluent and had access to a good legal defense while a football or basketball player usually can't afford a good attorney to defend them. They usually have to plead guilty even if they are not. If the school suspends them and/or he's kicked off the team, everyone applauds. If they don't the school is accused of keeping thugs on the team. Perhaps the next time a college athlete is accused of a serious crime, there won't be such a rush to judgement.

paintmered
04-13-2007, 11:19 AM
Slight derail but I miss the good old days when we could talk about whatever over on this side of the board. I know the peanut gallery is only a click away but it just doesn't "feel" the same.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Take my word for it, it was an impossible situation that repeatedly ended with everyone getting in trouble and their feelings hurt.

The board is better for it.

RedsBaron
04-13-2007, 11:35 AM
I think a lot of people are feeling pretty high and mighty about this now. Here are a bunch of college kids that were wrongfully accused of a crime and now that they have been exonerated, people are jumping right on their bandwagon - some of these are the same people who were calling for these kids to be thrown in jail even before they were tried. How dare the DA and the school assume these kids are guilty before they are even tried. But that happens all the time. Some football or basketball player is arrested and they are immediately suspended from the team and some are even kicked out of school even before they are tried. They are automatically guilty in the court of public opinion. Most of the time, yes, they are guilty but it sure seemed that these Duke Lacrosse players were guilty when everything broke. The difference is that these Duke kids were affluent and had access to a good legal defense while a football or basketball player usually can't afford a good attorney to defend them. They usually have to plead guilty even if they are not. If the school suspends them and/or he's kicked off the team, everyone applauds. If they don't the school is accused of keeping thugs on the team. Perhaps the next time a college athlete is accused of a serious crime, there won't be such a rush to judgement.

Good post. In general I have never liked seeing anyone accused of a crime suspended or fired until legal proceedings have first run their course. There are exceptions, but usually people should take a breath and wait.

TeamDunn
04-13-2007, 10:53 PM
I can see why the school did what they did. When there is a prosecutor claiming to have a slam dunk case with tons of evidence, the "victim" cooperating and identifying the 3 young men (at least in the beginning) did Duke really have a choice? What kind of outcry would have been heard from the female student body? From parents? From Alumni?

They trusted the prosecutor just like many others did. I know if I had a daughter going there I would not have wanted them back on the school grounds after hearing how sure the prosecutor was that they were guilty.

Instead of holding the school to a higher standard we need to hold our gvt officials to a higher standard...in this case anything would be better than what was in office (or will soon be gone).

For years women did not report rapes because the tables were turned and THEY were on trial. I fear that this chick set that way of thinking back in motion...full force. :(

Team Clark
04-14-2007, 12:11 AM
probably protesting in front of the science building because they use animals in testing.....

:laugh: I know I would be organizing a rally in their front yard so they too could feel the pain. Then again I've been accused of being "vengeful" a time or two in the past by my wife. :thumbup:

Razor Shines
04-14-2007, 03:17 AM
Once again, I realize the moderators have a difficult job here, but I still have yet to figure out why certain obviously political threads like this one are allowed to remain open, while other one that have merely a scintilla political potential potential-yet are highly relevant to the interests of people on this board, the City of Cincinnati, the Reds, etc.-are shut down at the first or second post.

Having said that, so long as this thread remains open, I'd like to weigh in.

It now is looking like the DA clearly lacked the evidence to bring this case, and certainly not in the cavalier way he brought it.

I have less of a problem with the way Duke has handled the matter. Did we forget about this email sent the night of the incident?:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke1.html
Given the incidents involving the lacrosse team in the past, and circumstantial evidence like this, I have no problem with the school finding this to be the last straw and 1. canceling the team's season and 2. suspending the 2 indicted players, pending resolution of their criminal charges.

Hopefully the 2 players being exonerated will not embolden the team to once again engage in the nonsense that has terrorized the Duke campus and alienated people in the city of Durham in the past.

That email was a reference to "American Psycho". Some of the guys on the team would "joke" like they were in that movie. One of the responding emails says "I'll bring the Phil Collins music", if you've seen the movie it's an obvious reference. People may not find it amusing, but it's just a joke from a movie.

GAC
04-14-2007, 04:47 AM
I think a lot of people are feeling pretty high and mighty about this now. Here are a bunch of college kids that were wrongfully accused of a crime and now that they have been exonerated, people are jumping right on their bandwagon - some of these are the same people who were calling for these kids to be thrown in jail even before they were tried. How dare the DA and the school assume these kids are guilty before they are even tried. But that happens all the time. Some football or basketball player is arrested and they are immediately suspended from the team and some are even kicked out of school even before they are tried. They are automatically guilty in the court of public opinion. Most of the time, yes, they are guilty but it sure seemed that these Duke Lacrosse players were guilty when everything broke. The difference is that these Duke kids were affluent and had access to a good legal defense while a football or basketball player usually can't afford a good attorney to defend them. They usually have to plead guilty even if they are not. If the school suspends them and/or he's kicked off the team, everyone applauds. If they don't the school is accused of keeping thugs on the team. Perhaps the next time a college athlete is accused of a serious crime, there won't be such a rush to judgement.

Very good post Chip. Can you give a mod rep pts without being accused of being a brown-noser? :mooner:

I highlighted two points you made that are very relevant....

One is that we are too quick to convict/pronounce guilt in the "court of public opinion." And do you know who I blame primarily for this, and feel they show great irresponsibility because of their influence on that public? The media. They have the ability to work the public like a hand puppet. I'm not saying that as an excuse; but that they need to show more responsibility as well as we, the public, need to be more objective with what is being reported and try to get as much facts/truth as possible.

The media would counter that their job is to report/cover the story. True. But IMHO, they show very little objectivity, nor accountability, when they appear to have a bias that influences that public. Do you ever hear them come back and say "We got it wrong, we're sorry"? Should they?

And the second point - it seems that people, generally speaking, like to "convict" when it involves the rich/affluent. Why? Is it due in part to some jealousy, and that anytime we can "stick it to the rich" we're going to do it?

George Foster
04-14-2007, 08:06 PM
I think in the very near future, there will be laws passed, and rightfully so, that will not release the names of the accused in sex crimes, until convicted.

Minors are protected now and their names are not released in all court proceedings. They can do it in this situation as well.

Chip R
04-14-2007, 09:33 PM
I think in the very near future, there will be laws passed, and rightfully so, that will not release the names of the accused in sex crimes, until convicted.

Minors are protected now and their names are not released in all court proceedings. They can do it in this situation as well.


Could be but with the information age as it is today, that's going to be extremely difficult. They tried that in the Kobe Bryant case and the girl's name leaked all over the net.

RedsBaron
04-15-2007, 04:07 PM
I think in the very near future, there will be laws passed, and rightfully so, that will not release the names of the accused in sex crimes, until convicted.

Minors are protected now and their names are not released in all court proceedings. They can do it in this situation as well.

The accused always has a problem regaining whatever good name they had before being charged with a crime, even if later nothing comes of the charge. I wouldn't remember Ray Donovan, a cabinet offical charged with a crime in the Reagan adminstration, at all but for the statement he made after he was found not guilty: "Where do I go to get my name back?" I don't even recall what Donovan was charged with. I also realize that a not guilty verdict doesn't necessarily mean the accused didn't do whatever he or she was charged with. However, people should always bear in mind the presumption of innocence and that sometimes the accused really didn't "do it."

Sea Ray
04-17-2007, 11:35 AM
For years women did not report rapes because the tables were turned and THEY were on trial. I fear that this chick set that way of thinking back in motion...full force. :(

She sure did and for that reason black leaders should be all over her case rather than jumping to her defense.

The evidence seems to show that she falsely accused these players. If that's the case let's hope that she is prosecuted for making a false accusation. The damage this did to these kids is huge and she should be held accountable as an example to anyone else who tries to go down this road. This cannot be tolerated.

RedsBaron
04-19-2007, 11:06 PM
The 4/23/07 issue of Sports Illustrated has an interesting column by Rick Reilly about Duke's former lacrosse coach, Mike Pressler. Shortly after the charges were filed against the Duke players in March 2006, Pressler began finding signs on his lawn: COACH DO YOUR DUTY! TURN THEM IN! RAPIST LOVER. Eggs were thrown at him. He received repeated threatening phone calls, such as telling him that if he knew what was good for his family he would leave town and asking how he could harbor rapists. Pressler and his wife finally sent their two daughters away, but they stayed, believing the players to be innocent.
Pressler claims that on 4/5/06 Duke athletic director Joe Alleva (who did not respond to SI calls) called him in told him he was fired, even though only a few months earlier Pressler, the 2005 NCAA Coach of the Year, a coach with a record of 153-82 and a 100% graduation rate, had been given a three year contract extension.
Pressler pleaded: "But Joe, you stood up before my players and said you believed it never happened. The DNA is coming back any day. Wait for the truth."
Pressler claims Alleva replied:"It's not about the truth anymore. It's about the faculty, the NAACP and the special interest groups."
Would Pressler ever go back to Duke? "After what those folks did to us? What those people did to those kids? To back under that leadership? No, I couldn't do that."
Reilly then ends his column by writing: "But the question is: When does this fine man who did absolutely nothing wrong get his apology? Where are the mea culpas from Nifong? From Alleva? From Duke president Richard Brodhead? When is Mike Pressler's day?"

Mutaman
04-19-2007, 11:36 PM
And the second point - it seems that people, generally speaking, like to "convict" when it involves the rich/affluent. Why? Is it due in part to some jealousy, and that anytime we can "stick it to the rich" we're going to do it?

Yes, history has certainly shown that the poor have a much better chance in our criminal justice system.

George Foster
04-21-2007, 01:30 AM
Yes, history has certainly shown that the poor have a much better chance in our criminal justice system.

GAC was not talking about the court of justice, but the court of public opinion.

Mutaman
04-21-2007, 01:52 AM
GAC was not talking about the court of justice, but the court of public opinion.

Ok, history has certainly shown that the poor have a much better chance in the court of public opinion.

GAC
04-21-2007, 05:59 AM
Ok, history has certainly shown that the poor have a much better chance in the court of public opinion.

It's very obvious in this case that being rich sure didn't help when it came to that court of public opinion. In fact, it seemed to hurt and even fueled the fire..."They're the rich. They deserve anything that's thrown at them." One's social/economic status is not justification for a rush to judgment.

The entire issue IMHO though is about the facts and justice. Did you read the above article referenced by RedsBaron?

People lives were being threated. The coach lost his job. A guy who was not only Coach of the Year, but had a 100% graduation rate. From what I've read - a stellar guy.

But here is the crux of the matter that really disturbs me....



Pressler pleaded: "But Joe, you stood up before my players and said you believed it never happened. The DNA is coming back any day. Wait for the truth."
Pressler claims Alleva replied:"It's not about the truth anymore. It's about the faculty, the NAACP and the special interest groups."

Have you ever read what they said about the Duke players and coach?

And finally.....


Reilly then ends his column by writing: "But the question is: When does this fine man who did absolutely nothing wrong get his apology? Where are the mea culpas from Nifong? From Alleva? From Duke president Richard Brodhead? When is Mike Pressler's day?"

Not only this coach, but those players. When public figures, and that includes everyone from a college administration, prosecutor, and civil rights leaders, whoever, lead a public charge, and hysteria, like what was done here, shouldn't they also have responsibility to offer a public apology to those they have publically wronged, humiliated, and even cost them to lose their job? They helped to instigate and lead this frenzy. As well as the media.

Everyone demanded accountability from this coach and players - where their accountability now? When people like Imus say stupid things, and even offer up an apology, they are rejected as being insincere. I seen where Sharpton has been confronted twice in the last couple of weeks concerning this, and he has completely dodged the issue.

And maybe you're saying they shouldn't have to apologize why again? Because they are rich white kids?

Mutaman
04-21-2007, 12:53 PM
Ok, on behalf of everybody who ever did anything wrong, (and even on behalf of those who didn't) I offer a public apology. And believe me, it's as sincere as the I-Man's. Feel better?

GAC
04-21-2007, 05:42 PM
Ok, on behalf of everybody who ever did anything wrong, (and even on behalf of those who didn't) I offer a public apology. And believe me, it's as sincere as the I-Man's. Feel better?

Do you?

Mutaman
04-25-2007, 04:40 AM
From today's NYTimes article about Paul Wolfowitz lawyering up with Bob Bennett:


"I am very worried about the rush to judgment," Mr. Bennett said. "We just had a wonderful example of that in the Duke lacrosse case."

At long last, white guys caught in the legal and/or investigative crosshairs have their own miscarriage-of-justice icons.

--Jason Zengerle

WMR
06-15-2007, 06:59 PM
Durham Co. DA Mike Nifong has announced his intention to resign. Still an excellent probability he loses his law license over this fiasco.

Sea Ray
06-16-2007, 11:34 AM
Durham Co. DA Mike Nifong has announced his intention to resign. Still an excellent probability he loses his law license over this fiasco.

He wasn't going to come out of this with his DA job anyway. He deserves to be disbarred and the boys falsely pursued by Nifong for a over a year should sue him and his office for their legal bills and expenses. They should be made whole.

WMR
06-16-2007, 08:10 PM
Mike Nifong has been disbarred.

Yachtzee
06-17-2007, 09:01 AM
Mike Nifong has been disbarred.

I suspect he will now serve as an important lesson in Professional Responsibility classes as an example of how not to conduct oneself as a prosecutor.

Sea Ray
06-17-2007, 02:45 PM
Next up, a criminal trial against Mike Nifong:


The players' defense attorneys have pledged to seek criminal contempt charges next week in Durham from a judge who has already reminded Nifong he has the authority to impose punishment. They suggested the calls for a federal civil rights investigation were not out of line.

"I don't think any of us are done with Mr. Nifong yet," said Jim Cooney, Seligmann's attorney.

Nifong's comment that he thinks "something did happen" that night will cost him a lot more money in attorney fees. If he'd just admit the boys are innocent he'd have a much better chance of ending all this dtuff.