Rock & Roll Hall of Fame 2007 Inductees

[redsmetz]

Wire services are reporting:

Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five (Kid Creole, Cowboy, Grandmaster Flash, Melle Mel, Mr. Ness, Raheim)

R.E.M. (Bill Berry, Peter Buck, Mike Mills, Michael Stipe)

The Ronettes (Estelle Bennett, Ronnie Spector, Nedra Talley)

Patti Smith

Van Halen (Michael Anthony, Sammy Hagar, Alex Van Halen, Eddie Van Halen, David Lee Roth)

[Blimpie]

Van Halen (Michael Anthony, Sammy Hagar, Alex Van Halen, Eddie Van Halen, David Lee Roth)Ugh. I was with you until I saw Sammy Hagar....

[Matt700wlw]

Well, Sammy was a member.....

[Redsland]

If it's true that there's only one way to rock, how likely is it that Sammy Hagar actually knows that way?

:)

[Blimpie]

Well, Sammy was a member.....Yep. He became a member at the precise moment I became nauseated by their music. Coincidence?

Sorry, but I no longer had any use for that band after their music became the launching pad for "Pepsi Clear"....

[Matt700wlw]

I didn't mind Sammy so much...of course I'm younger, so the mid 80s into the 90s and into my teen years (mid - late 90s) it was Sammy.

Don't get me wrong they kicked more ass and took more names with David Lee Roth at the helm...

[vaticanplum]

Grandmaster Flash!! Awesome!

[TeamBoone]

Mas Tequila! I love Sammy! (with or without Van Halen, which I also love).

[Yachtzee]

Yep. He became a member at the precise moment I became nauseated by their music. Coincidence?

Sorry, but I no longer had any use for that band after their music became the launching pad for "Pepsi Clear"....

Actually, I think they did much better with the launch of "Crystal Gravy."

http://www.retroland.com/forum_pics/crystalgravy_2217.jpg

"Right NOW!...you can see your meat!"

[Dom Heffner]

I loved Sammy hagar with them as well as Roth. They were two different bands, but both produced some great stuff. I'm in the minority for liking both but 5150 had some killer stuff on it.

REM should issue an apology for the last 11 years of music they've put out. I never thought losing a drummer could make you lose your sense of melody, but good heavens, the last albums (partially with New Adventures in Hi-Fi but mostly starting with Up) have been almost unlistenable.

Each has one or two good songs and then you read they were the ones that the band didn't want on the album.

It's one thing to not be commercial, but it's another thing to put out something that you don't want to listen to a second time. Yech.

And speaking of Van Halen, I had no clue that Michael Anthony was out of the band because he is still friends with Sammy Hagar.

I do find Hagar's hawking of his own tequila a bit odd, too. His obsession with the Cabo Wabo thing is a little old. You can't watch an interview without him plugging it. He's going to be the Karl Malden of rock stars.

[BoydsOfSummer]

Grandmaster Flash is in, yet KISS still isn't. Yeah, that makes sense. Let me know when that place gets serious, I'd like to visit it when it does.

[Yachtzee]

Grandmaster Flash - I second vp's response, awesome!

R.E.M. - Another great choice. But whatever happened to them after they released the "Green" album? There seems to be a blank spot in my mind when I think of them after that. Did they break up or something? (Out of Time and subsequent albums NEVER HAPPENED).

The Ronettes - I think Eddie Money deserves an assist on this one. I don't know if I would have ever heard of Ronnie Spector or the Ronettes if it weren't for Mr. Money's "Take Me Home Tonight."

Patti Smith - Rather appropriate that Michael Stipe goes in with the idol of his youth. Her music was much more influential than successful. I wonder how this bodes for later alternative groups who were way more influential than they were successful (Pixies, anyone?).

Van Halen - Definitely deserves to go in with David Lee Roth. I've always enjoyed Sammy Hagar on his own more than with Van Halen. The fun part should be seeing who actually shows up for the ceremony. Do you get the Van Halen brothers with a couple of fill ins, or do you get David Lee Roth, Sammy Hagar, and Michael Anthony forming their own band and having people like Joe Satriani and Tommy Lee sit in for their induction performance? Or do you see everyone actually burying the hatchet and making nice?

[Yachtzee]

Grandmaster Flash is in, yet KISS still isn't. Yeah, that makes sense. Let me know when that place gets serious, I'd like to visit it when it does.

Grandmaster Flash revolutionized scratch-mixing and "The Message" was one of the first rap songs to cross over to mainstream.

KISS should get in. Maybe they're just being punished for those years they took off the make-up. :eek:

I'd like to see Devo get some love (don't laugh. I'm serious).

[westofyou]

REM should issue an apology for the last 11 years of music they've put out. I never thought losing a drummer could make you lose your sense of melody, but good heavens, the last albums (partially with New Adventures in Hi-Fi but mostly starting with Up) have been almost unlistenable.

I like em. Granted they are completely different, they just don't rock anymore.

[Reds Fanatic]

IAnd speaking of Van Halen, I had no clue that Michael Anthony was out of the band because he is still friends with Sammy Hagar.
Michael has been replaced by Eddie's son Wolfgang on bass. Be interesting to see who plays for Van Halen on their induction since Dave, Sammy and Michael are not in the band anymore.

[919191]

"Eddie Van Halen and The Eddie Van Halen Band" -- some drunk guy at The Devil's Backbone Tavern.

[Yachtzee]

Michael has been replaced by Eddie's son Wolfgang on bass. Be interesting to see who plays for Van Halen on their induction since Dave, Sammy and Michael are not in the band anymore.


Wow. Cool! Maybe they can meet up later with Sean and Yoko after the ceremony.

[Mutaman]

Grandmaster Flash is in, yet KISS still isn't. Yeah, that makes sense. Let me know when that place gets serious, I'd like to visit it when it does.

Kiss is in the Hall of fame for guys who made a lot of money with absolutely no talent. Kiss, Motley Crue, Donald Trump, all charter members. Gene Simmons and Tommy Lee also got elected individually. The HOF is located in Atlantic City, New Jersy.

[Mutaman]

The Ronettes - I think Eddie Money deserves an assist on this one. I don't know if I would have ever heard of Ronnie Spector or the Ronettes if it weren't for Mr. Money's "Take Me Home Tonight."


They did a song called "Be My Baby". Not a bad little song, you should give it a listen. Brian Wilson says its the greatest song ever written. Go rent a movie called Mean Streets, Scorsese played it over the opening credits and revolutionized the modern movie sound track. Springsteen based the first 10 years of his carreer around it. "Walking in the Rain" is a nice song too.

Who's Eddie Money?

[savafan]

What, no love for Gary Cherone?

[Ltlabner]

Michael has been replaced by Eddie's son Wolfgang on bass. Be interesting to see who plays for Van Halen on their induction since Dave, Sammy and Michael are not in the band anymore.

Like Dom, I had no idea they booted Michael Anthony.

VH with DLR was the real Van Halen in my opinion. However, I think they had some nice work with Sammy also. It's just that the DLR songs are more powerfull musical statements in most cases. Panama vs. Right Now for example. Right Now is sorta a catchy tune. Panama knocks you off your feet when played loud.

But the Van Halen brothers would be better off to hang it up or do some solo work. They are long past being relevant (with current music) and are ballancing on the edge of going from ground breaking rockers to a freak sideshow (what I like to call the Axel Rose effect).

[MrCinatit]

Nice to see Smith go in there. Warrior was a great song!




Kidding, kidding. Actually, Horses is a great, great, great listen.

[zombie-a-go-go]

Wire services are reporting:

Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five (Kid Creole, Cowboy, Grandmaster Flash, Melle Mel, Mr. Ness, Raheim)

:thumbup:

I, too, have found REM unlistenable since around Automatic For the People. It's really been that long since they've .... oh man, I'm getting old. :eek:

KISS is famous, ergo they should be in the Hall of Fame, IMO. I personally don't think they're any great shakes as musicians, but hey, they had their own comic book and they starred in their own movies as KISS (no, really, my moms has the VCR tapes, i've seen them). You'd be hard-pressed to come up with a reasonable rationale for keeping them out of the Hall.

Then again, I agree with Mojo Nixon - the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is crap anyway. :cool:

[minus5]

The Ronettes - I think Eddie Money deserves an assist on this one. I don't know if I would have ever heard of Ronnie Spector or the Ronettes if it weren't for Mr. Money's "Take Me Home Tonight."
?

You're kidding right? The Ronettes were one of the first of many very successful girl groups of the early to mid 60s. Though I don't really believe that they deserve induction. I think they would have gone nowhere were it not for the folks in the Brille Building and Phil Spector. Hell, their studio stuff had additional vocals by people like Darlene Love and Cher but still credited to The Ronettes.

[Johnny Footstool]

Van Halen - Definitely deserves to go in with David Lee Roth. I've always enjoyed Sammy Hagar on his own more than with Van Halen. The fun part should be seeing who actually shows up for the ceremony. Do you get the Van Halen brothers with a couple of fill ins, or do you get David Lee Roth, Sammy Hagar, and Michael Anthony forming their own band and having people like Joe Satriani and Tommy Lee sit in for their induction performance? Or do you see everyone actually burying the hatchet and making nice?

If there's a dollar to be made from burying the hatchet, the Van Halen brothers will bring shovels.

BTW - my all-time favorite Van Halen song is the title track from "5150" -- a nice little jab at David Lee Roth.

[westofyou]

The Ronettes - I think Eddie Money deserves an assist on this one. I don't know if I would have ever heard of Ronnie Spector or the Ronettes if it weren't for Mr. Money's "Take Me Home Tonight."

The wall of sound changed the business.

[MrCinatit]

If anything, Eddie Money should be thanking the Ronettes for his success.

[GAC]

Why no Alice Cooper in the R'N'R HOF?

Purely shameful.

[minus5]

The wall of sound changed the business.

Exactly but that had less to do with The Ronettes than Phil's over the top production. The Ronettes could have been the Shirelles or the Shangri-Las or the Crystals.

[westofyou]

Exactly but that had less to do with The Ronettes than Phil's over the top production.

True


The Ronettes could have been the Shirelles or the Shangri-Las or the Crystals.

That would have been sad.

[minus5]

Why no Alice Cooper in the R'N'R HOF?

Purely shameful.


I agree. If this years inductees made it I am at a loss why Cooper isn't there.

[westofyou]

Why no Alice Cooper in the R'N'R HOF?

Purely shameful.

Hard hearted Alice
Is what we want to be
Hard hearted Alice
Is what you want to see

[registerthis]

Why the hate for REM?

Yes, their sound changed--but to call their last decade's output "unlistenable"? I, for one, found "Around the Sun" to be quite an enjoyable experience. "Up", too, wasn't at all bad.

[minus5]

True


That would have been sad.

You know what I mean though.....While Ronnie's voice stands out, the girl groups were interchangeable. Like I said earlier, Darlene Love and Cher (among others) appeared on Ronettes recordings as well.

[westofyou]

Why the hate for REM?

Yes, their sound changed--but to call their last decade's output "unlistenable"? I, for one, found "Around the Sun" to be quite an enjoyable experience. "Up", too, wasn't at all bad.

You know what is weird about REM?

They spent their first decade with Michael standing looking at the ground or with his back to the crowd and mumbling 80% of the lyrics in a rapid fire manner. Now you can hear every lyric and they all are about emotions and relationships.

Not that I find anything wrong with that.

[texasdave]

Why no Alice Cooper in the R'N'R HOF?

Purely shameful.

Where are The Moody Blues?

[Roy Tucker]

I never quite "got" Patti Smith.

"Horses" was interesting, but other than that, I never quite understood what the big deal was.

:dunno:

[Yachtzee]

You're kidding right? The Ronettes were one of the first of many very successful girl groups of the early to mid 60s. Though I don't really believe that they deserve induction. I think they would have gone nowhere were it not for the folks in the Brille Building and Phil Spector. Hell, their studio stuff had additional vocals by people like Darlene Love and Cher but still credited to The Ronettes.

Well, when I say that Eddie Money deserves the assist, I mean that in the way that, by having Ronnie Spector sing on his hit song in the '80s, it brought her previous work with the Ronettes back into prominence. I had never heard of her before that and it was likely that the Ronettes could have faded into oblivion under the shadow of other girl groups from that era. But I remember that after that song, suddenly the Ronettes were on the radio all the time again, at least on the oldies and classic rock stations. By saying that, I do not mean that Eddie Money deserves to be in the Rock Hall or that the Ronettes got in there only because of Eddie Money. But "Take Me Home Tonight" certainly gave her career a boost at the right time.

[Chip R]

Why the hate for REM?

Yes, their sound changed--but to call their last decade's output "unlistenable"? I, for one, found "Around the Sun" to be quite an enjoyable experience. "Up", too, wasn't at all bad.


But are they HOF worthy?

[registerthis]

But are they HOF worthy?

It's so subjective, who can really say? They've certainly sold a lot of albums, and their lengthy career is a testament to their ongoing popularity and relevance. Certainly one of the most important bands to emerge out of America during the last 25 years.

But Rock and Roll HoF credentials are much more arbitrary than those of, for example, the baseball HoF. You could look solely at album sales and tour grosses, but that would ignore so many valuable qualities that a band may have. There are a number of bands that I would classify as HoF-worthy, but who lack the requisite chart hits or album sales to gain admittance.

[vaticanplum]

But are they HOF worthy?

They are absolutely, because of the influence they had, both musically and beyond. And I hate REM's music. Always have. But they deserve to be in the Hall of Fame, easy.

[Matt700wlw]

Michael has been replaced by Eddie's son Wolfgang on bass. Be interesting to see who plays for Van Halen on their induction since Dave, Sammy and Michael are not in the band anymore.

I thought I saw that Dave was coming back...

[Ltlabner]

Kiss is in the Hall of fame for guys who made a lot of money with absolutely no talent.

I've never understood why people say this. Are their songs complex? No. Are their lyrics deep and metaphysical? No Are they out trying to change the world for the cause dejour? No.

But do their songs rock? Yes. Are their songs entertaining? Yes. Do their songs cause a reaction or emotional responce? Yes. Did they bring something new and different to the music sceen? Yes. (I'm talking about the 70's/early 80's Kiss).

You may not care for their music but I don't think that takes away from being tallented. If it was so easy, why weren't there more bands following the exact same formula and making the same wild amounts of money? Seems to me if it was so easy, the lure of easy money would have had a strong allure to others to follow the same path.

[Dom Heffner]

I've never understood why people say this. Are their songs complex? No. Are their lyrics deep and metaphysical? No Are they out trying to change the world for the cause dejour? No.

Bob Seger tends to inspire this from people, too. I'd put "Night Moves" up there amongst my favorites.

I just want a song I can hum along to.

[Ltlabner]

Bob Seger tends to inspire this from people, too. I'd put "Night Moves" up there amongst my favorites.

I just want a song I can hum along to.

Yea, I don't really care about who the artist is or the type of music. I just want it to move me in some way.

[Dom Heffner]

Yea, I don't really care about who the artist is or the type of music. I just want it to move me in some way.

There was a time in my life when I was the record store snob. It had to be alternative or I wouldn't admit to liking it. Now, I just like what I like. I downloaded some Buck Owens, Conway and Loretta, and Sonic Youth the other day. I don't think you can get further apart musically, but that's a good thing, I think.

I have some wholly embarrassing things in my IPod. No Joey Lawrence, but close.

[Ltlabner]

I have some wholly embarrassing things in my IPod. No Joey Lawrence, but close.

There have been several times where I'll be traveling with co-workers and a song will come on my ipod that leaves me thinking, "this guy must think I'm nuts for having _________ on my ipod".

It's really hard to have a conversation with your boss about a complex customer situation when you are thinking to yourself....Dear lord, don't let the Kylie Minoge turn up in the random selection of songs.

[Dom Heffner]

There have been several times where I'll be traveling with co-workers and a song will come on my ipod that leaves me thinking, "this guy must think I'm nuts for having _________ on my ipod".


The shuffle feature is a double edged sword.

[Mutaman]

Exactly but that had less to do with The Ronettes than Phil's over the top production. The Ronettes could have been the Shirelles or the Shangri-Las or the Crystals.

Even if the Ronettes don't deserve to be in the HOF for their own output, I like to think of their nomination as a group which represents all of the Girl groups, (outside of Motown of course). So their nomination is in some ways an honor to the Shirelles and the Shangri-Las and the Crystals as well. (Not to mention the Cookies and the Chiffons.) Hey this is great music that still holds up.

There's a myth that Rock and Roll went into a serous decline from the time Elvis was inducted until the British invasion and the appearance of Dylan. Nothing could be further from the truth. And the induction of the Ronettes helps dispell that myth. (As if it hadn't been completely buried by Springsteen).


"Bruce was thirteen when his hometown cousin in Freehold, New Jersey, showed him how to make the same music on the guitar that the Beachboys, the Shirells, Gary (US) Bonds, the Chiffons, and his other favorites were making on the radio. That was enough to alter his fantasy of becoming a baseball player to a fantasy of becoming a rock & roll star. "

STUART WERBIN
(RS 133 - April 26, 1973)

[Mutaman]

Yes. Did they bring something new and different to the music sceen? Yes. (I'm talking about the 70's/early 80's Kiss).

You may not care for their music but I don't think that takes away from being tallented. If it was so easy, why weren't there more bands following the exact same formula and making the same wild amounts of money? Seems to me if it was so easy, the lure of easy money would have had a strong allure to others to follow the same path.

Here's where we disagree. Kiss didn't do anything different musically. They took what T-Rex, the New York Dolls, and Iggy were doing, softened it, and made it comercially appealing to suburban white kids who like music without an edge. Why in the world would anyone want to listen to Gene Simmons when they can put on Electric Warrior by T-Rex or Raw Power by the Stooges.

I grant you Kiss was inovative in their live act from what I heard what with the makeup and the smoke and the bells and whistles, and I guess that requires some talent. But I think we're talking about whats good music, not theatrics.

This says it all:

"The group was relatively quiet through the rest of the year, but 2002 started with a bang as Gene Simmons turned in an entertaining and controversial interview on NPR where he criticized the organization and berated host Terry Gross with sexual comments and condescending answers. He was promoting his autobiography at the time, which also caused dissent in the Kiss camp because of the inflammatory remarks made towards Ace Frehley. Frehley was quite angry at the situation, leading to his no-showing of an American Bandstand anniversary show. His place was taken by a wig-wearing Tommy Thayer, but no one was fooled and the band looked especially awful while pretending to play their instruments during the pre-recorded track. The appearance was an embarrassment for the group and for their fans, but Simmons was quick to dismiss the performance as another in a long series of money-oriented decisions."

Stephen Thomas Erlewine & Greg Prato, AMG "Kiss"

[westofyou]

Here's where we disagree. Kiss didn't do anything different musically. They took what T-Rex, the New York Dolls, and Iggy were doing, softened it, and made it comercially appealing to suburban white kids who like music without an edge. Why in the world would anyone want to listen to Gene Simmons when they can put on Electric Warrior by T-Rex or Raw Power by the Stooges.I lived in Detroit in the 70's and Kiss and Alice were created to come up past 8 Mile and get into our moms and dads pockets.

Lucky for me my sisters friends listened to Electric Warrior and Raw Power.

[chicoruiz]

There are certain acts that the Hall won't touch with a ten-foot pole because they're not "hip" enough. They're afraid that if they honored Chicago or Earth, Wind & Fire, they would somehow be demeaning themselves and all the "cool kids" from school (Springsteen, Bono, etc.) would stop hanging around with them. Kiss probably falls into that group. I was never a Kiss fan, but they were successful and influential, and they could rock. What else should count?

BTW, I'm OK with Ronnie Spector getting in, but I think she got bonus points for being married to Phil. If the Ronettes are in, the Crystals should be also. Darlene Love and LaLa Brooks rule!

[deltachi8]

Ugh. I was with you until I saw Sammy Hagar....
i am the exact opposite, I really don't care for Dave and love Sam.

[GAC]

Where are The Moody Blues?

I was actually going to start a thread the other day about bands (performers) who aren't in the HOF yet should be. I saw the Moody Blues right after Lennon got murdered. One heck of a great tribute show. The song "Veteran Cosmic Rocker" was written about John.

[GAC]

I never quite "got" Patti Smith.

"Horses" was interesting, but other than that, I never quite understood what the big deal was.

:dunno:

Me neither. I guess it was an acquired taste.

Just like Herb Albert (who is in). I thought it was suppose to be a Rock n Roll HOF? Bill Monroe?

[vaticanplum]

I believe that one of the reasons Patti Smith made it in is because of her power as a live performer. She is said to be one of the greatest performers rock has ever known. This is even outside of her influence on the NY punk scene in the 70s, which was enormous, and the quality of her songs is good (she's quite original, especially lyrically of course). But she was apparently head and shoulders above most other musicians as a performer.

People are voted into the Hall for varied reasons. That's one reason I kind of like it. Most awards bug me because people are all competing for the same thing (baseball and Oscars are both based on "performance", for example), and yet there's no set criteria: it's still an award of opinion. For the Hall of Fame, at least they're blatant about it being opinion. You can get voted in for any number of things as long as they had an effect on music in some way.

[Ltlabner]

Why in the world would anyone want to listen to Gene Simmons when they can put on Electric Warrior by T-Rex or Raw Power by the Stooges.

This says it all:

"The group was relatively quiet through the rest of the year, but 2002 started with a bang as Gene Simmons turned in an entertaining and controversial interview on NPR where he criticized the organization and berated host Terry Gross with sexual comments and condescending answers.

Why is it either or? I like to listen to all three of those choices. I don't see it as an A or B type situation.

That Gene may be a total jerk has no bearing on the level of his tallent. A musician has to be a saint to have tallent? If that were true there would be very few musicians left.

[redsmetz]

I lived in Detroit in the 70's and Kiss and Alice were created to come up past 8 Mile and get into our moms and dads pockets.

Lucky for me my sisters friends listened to Electric Warrior and Raw Power.

Hey, WOY, I spent my freshman year in college at Southfield Road and Ten Mile (I think) in 1973/74! Just down the road from Southfield Mall!

[redsmetz]

Me neither. I guess it was an acquired taste.

Just like Herb Albert (who is in). I thought it was suppose to be a Rock n Roll HOF? Bill Monroe?

Herb Albert is in for a Lifetime Achievement award in the Non-performer category (with Jerry Moss) for A&M records. Bill Monroe is in as "Early Influence" where it is noted:

Moreover, the tight, rhythmic drive of Monroe's string bands helped clear a path for rock and roll in the Fifties. That connection became clear when a reworked song of Monroe's, "Blue Moon of Kentucky," became part of rock and roll history as the B side of Elvis Presley's first single for Sun Records in 1954. Carl Perkins claimed that the first words Presley spoke to him were, "Do you like Bill Monroe?"

[westofyou]

Hey, WOY, I spent my freshman year in college at Southfield Road and Ten Mile (I think) in 1973/74! Just down the road from Southfield Mall!

Makes ya yern for the Clock Restaurant

[StillFunkyB]

REM should issue an apology for the last 11 years of music they've put out. I never thought losing a drummer could make you lose your sense of melody, but good heavens, the last albums (partially with New Adventures in Hi-Fi but mostly starting with Up) have been almost unlistenable.

Almost? You are giving too much credit. Pure garbage IMHO.

[Falls City Beer]

I've never understood why people say this. Are their songs complex? No. Are their lyrics deep and metaphysical? No Are they out trying to change the world for the cause dejour? No.

But do their songs rock? Yes. Are their songs entertaining? Yes. Do their songs cause a reaction or emotional responce? Yes. Did they bring something new and different to the music sceen? Yes. (I'm talking about the 70's/early 80's Kiss).

You may not care for their music but I don't think that takes away from being tallented. If it was so easy, why weren't there more bands following the exact same formula and making the same wild amounts of money? Seems to me if it was so easy, the lure of easy money would have had a strong allure to others to follow the same path.

I'm not sure a better song came out of the 70s than "Goin' Blind."

[redsmetz]

Makes ya yern for the Clock Restaurant

I don't remember that, but there was a Greek place that had "coneys" and our first time there, we ordered three and they brought these footlong dogs out and the "chili" was sauted ground beef on it. Now that weren't chili, as they say somewhere! Can't remember the name of it. When we came back, the older students said, "oh, we meant to warn you Cincinnati guys about that".

[westofyou]

I don't remember that, but there was a Greek place that had "coneys" and our first time there, we ordered three and they brought these footlong dogs out and the "chili" was sauted ground beef on it. Now that weren't chili, as they say somewhere! Can't remember the name of it. When we came back, the older students said, "oh, we meant to warn you Cincinnati guys about that".

That's the coney I thought I was going to get when I moved to Cincinnati.

Needless to say, I was disappointed.

[westofyou]

I'm not sure a better song came out of the 70s than "Goin' Blind."

But you already said that Station to Station was the greatest song of all time.... I like that pick myself.

[Dom Heffner]

Makes ya yern for the Clock Restaurant

I ate at the Clock a few months back. While ordering, I made a comment how the pictures of the food in the menu looked like they were taken back in the 70s. Little did I know that the picutres would look better than the food when it arrived. That was the worst meal I've ever eaten.

The Clock is creepy.


Almost? You are giving too much credit. Pure garbage IMHO.

It's pretty bad. "Reveal" is my favorite of the terrible bunch. "Up" was plain awful.

This last CD featured a song where Michael Stipe uses proud as a noun. He claims he knows it doesn't make sense, but they left it alone. That's when you know bands have lost it, when they can change parts of speech.

[Blimpie]

Where are The Moody Blues?I coulda sworn they were inducted a few years back...no?

[dman]

Well, Sammy was a member.....

So was Gary Cherone, but he didn't make it in.

[RedFanAlways1966]

So was Gary Cherone, but he didn't make it in.

True, but I don't think that the Van Halen III album is considered Hall worthy. A lot of the Sammy Hagar VH stuff is good material. Same goes for the David Lee Roth VH years. Cherone? Notta. Might be "extreme" thinking to state otherwise!

[minus5]

True, but I don't think that the Van Halen III album is considered Hall worthy. A lot of the Sammy Hagar VH stuff is good material. Same goes for the David Lee Roth VH years. Cherone? Notta. Might be "extreme" thinking to state otherwise!

Some of the Hagar stuff might be good....but is it hall worhty? At least the DLR years were formative to VH. I was always of the opinion that when Sammy joined the bands they became Night Ranger. For the most part, nothing but pop/rock, nothing I'd say was influential or ground breaking going on there....so why should Sammy get in as part of VH?

[redsfanmia]

Does it matter? Do rock musicians really aspire to make the Rock and Roll Hall of Lame? I doubt it, other than a possible boast in record sales for having thier names in the news.

[Roy Tucker]

I believe that one of the reasons Patti Smith made it in is because of her power as a live performer. She is said to be one of the greatest performers rock has ever known. This is even outside of her influence on the NY punk scene in the 70s, which was enormous, and the quality of her songs is good (she's quite original, especially lyrically of course). But she was apparently head and shoulders above most other musicians as a performer.

People are voted into the Hall for varied reasons. That's one reason I kind of like it. Most awards bug me because people are all competing for the same thing (baseball and Oscars are both based on "performance", for example), and yet there's no set criteria: it's still an award of opinion. For the Hall of Fame, at least they're blatant about it being opinion. You can get voted in for any number of things as long as they had an effect on music in some way.

Yeah, I saw her up at the Agora in Cleveland circa 1978(?) back in my clubbing days. She was good with lots of energy with a passionate following. I thought she was cool in those punk times, hairy armpits, skanky hair and clothes and all. I saw a *lot* of good shows around then and while hers was good, there were a ton of great shows I saw around then and I certainly wouldn't say it stood out as best of all time (which is a whole different topic). It's like the Grateful Dead for me, I just never understood what the big deal was. It's all subjective and JMHO.

I did like Gilda Radner's version of Patti on SNL.

[Dom Heffner]

when Sammy joined the band they became Night Ranger.

That made me laugh out loud. This may be true, but I always liked Night Ranger in a so bad it's good sort of way.

"Sentimental Street" has to be one of the worst song titles in history, though I like the song.
It's "When You Close Your Eyes" Part Deux.

[westofyou]

That made me laugh out loud. This may be true, but I always liked Night Ranger in a so bad it's good sort of way.

"Sentimental Street" has to be one of the worst song titles in history, though I like the song.
It's "When You Close Your Eyes" Part Deux.

Dom, Night Ranger, is the Clock Restaurant of California Pop Metal. :p:

[MrCinatit]

I cannot hear Sister Christen without thinking of Alfred Molina air strumming along.

Kinda like Van Halen's Dancing The Night Away and one of the few good scenes in Mission To Mars.

[Dom Heffner]

Dom, Night Ranger, is the Clock Restaurant of California Pop Metal.


WOY, your insight is felt at every corner of this board. :)

[Redsland]

But are they HOF worthy?
Bobby Darin is in.
The Animals are in.
Rod Stewart is in.
The Bee Gees are in.
The Mamas and the Papas are in.
Aerosmith is in.
AC/DC is in.
Blondie is in.

I mean, really...what are the criteria? Two monster hits? Five good years? A decade of medicrity? Two decades of mediocrity?

The bar is mighty low, IMHO. If AC/DC is a Hall of Fame act...if Rod Stewart is a Hall of Famer, then anyone with two or three gold albums belongs. That ain't right.

Heck, in 1989, Stevie Wonder was inducted with Dion. In 2000, Eric Clapton shared the stage with Bonnie Raitt. Folks, those equations are not balanced.

[registerthis]

If AC/DC is a Hall of Fame act...

Oh, come on. Why WOULDN'T AC/DC be considered a HofF act? What have they *not* done that should warrant them being excluded?

Nearly 30 years together playing and touring, countless hits, ridiculous numbers of albums sold, one of the most well-known bands in rock music history--I'd argue that if a band of their caliber *doesn't* make it in, then the Hall is indeed a farce.

[Falls City Beer]

But you already said that Station to Station was the greatest song of all time.... I like that pick myself.

You're right. "S to S" is better. But it's like the two songs inhabit different universes.

[Chip R]

Bobby Darin is in.
The Animals are in.
Rod Stewart is in.
The Bee Gees are in.
The Mamas and the Papas are in.
Aerosmith is in.
AC/DC is in.
Blondie is in.

I mean, really...what are the criteria? Two monster hits? Five good years? A decade of medicrity? Two decades of mediocrity?

The bar is mighty low, IMHO. If AC/DC is a Hall of Fame act...if Rod Stewart is a Hall of Famer, then anyone with two or three gold albums belongs. That ain't right.

Heck, in 1989, Stevie Wonder was inducted with Dion. In 2000, Eric Clapton shared the stage with Bonnie Raitt. Folks, those equations are not balanced.

I agree that the bar is set low. But just because one - or a bunch - of lame acts are in, does it justify another one going in?

[Redsland]

Oh, come on. Why WOULDN'T AC/DC be considered a HofF act? What have they *not* done that should warrant them being excluded?

Nearly 30 years together playing and touring, countless hits, ridiculous numbers of albums sold, one of the most well-known bands in rock music history--I'd argue that if a band of their caliber *doesn't* make it in, then the Hall is indeed a farce.
So you're saying Duran Duran, Loverboy, The Village People, Air Supply, Michael Bolton, Judas Priest, ABBA, Barry Manilow, The Scorpions, REO Speedwagon, Jimmy Buffet, Rick Springfield, The Monkees, Glen Campbell, and Johnny Mathis belong?

It's not the Hall of Longevity and Album Sales. If a band by its own admission makes the same album every year, particularly in a genre like "radio-friendly suburban rock," the band is historically disposable, IMHO.

[redsmetz]

Bobby Darin is in.
The Animals are in.
Rod Stewart is in.
The Bee Gees are in.
The Mamas and the Papas are in.
Aerosmith is in.
AC/DC is in.
Blondie is in.

I mean, really...what are the criteria? Two monster hits? Five good years? A decade of medicrity? Two decades of mediocrity?

The bar is mighty low, IMHO. If AC/DC is a Hall of Fame act...if Rod Stewart is a Hall of Famer, then anyone with two or three gold albums belongs. That ain't right.

Heck, in 1989, Stevie Wonder was inducted with Dion. In 2000, Eric Clapton shared the stage with Bonnie Raitt. Folks, those equations are not balanced.

I'm not sure of your age, but I think the Hall takes a wider view of a musical form that now is over fifty years old. What might seem as if it isn't even Rock N Roll now, clearly was an element of the music during it's time. Some of it's musical, some of it's having brought forward significant acts in their wake or because of the tutelage. Take for instance, The Mamas & Papas. In their day, the folk sound clearly merged with rock (as evidenced by groups such as The Byrds or The Lovin' Spoonful), but also the part they played introducing other significant acts to the mainstream as the driving force behind the Monterrey Pop Festival (Hendrix, Otis Redding, The Who). I remember telling my son once that the music scene was not so compartmentalized as it is today.

The Hall also has a wider range of categories that are voted on more often than say the Baseball HOF. Besides performers they have Non-Performers (record label owners/producers etc.), Early Influences (Bill Monroe for example) and in 2000 they added a category called Sidemen which has brought in about a dozen important and talented (and deserving) musicians (including Chet Atkins whose known more as a country/blue grass artist, but who was a session man for a large number of important Rock acts).

I think it's a more eclectic group this way. Clearly there are omissions and hopefully those will be rectified as the years go by.

[Redsland]

redzmetz;

All of the acts I named were from the Performer category, and I agree that it's a good idea to have other categories for influential people like Clive Davis to aspire to.

If the mission of the Hall is to hail the leading acts of their respective days, then why are influential pioneers like Chubby Checker on the outside looking in when flashes in the pan like the Mamas and the Papas get the nod? Sure, they were important members of the folk movement for a brief time, but had nowhere near the impact of Crosby Stills and Nash, who are already enshrined in the Hall. Meanwhile guys like George Harrison make it for both their band and their solo careers, while guys like Pete Townshend don't.

I think it's a great idea to honor the luminaries of different eras. That can be the only reason the Bee Gees made it, for example. But then why aren't The Hollies or Cat Stevens or The Guess Who in? Traffic made it in but Derek and the Dominoes didn't? Yes to Black Sabbath, no to Blue Oyster Cult? It doesn't make any sense.

[Yachtzee]

Yes to Black Sabbath, no to Blue Oyster Cult?

I guess they needed more cowbell.

[redsmetz]

redzmetz;

All of the acts I named were from the Performer category, and I agree that it's a good idea to have other categories for influential people like Clive Davis to aspire to.

If the mission of the Hall is to hail the leading acts of their respective days, then why are influential pioneers like Chubby Checker on the outside looking in when flashes in the pan like the Mamas and the Papas get the nod? Sure, they were important members of the folk movement for a brief time, but had nowhere near the impact of Crosby Stills and Nash, who are already enshrined in the Hall. Meanwhile guys like George Harrison make it for both their band and their solo careers, while guys like Pete Townshend don't.

I think it's a great idea to honor the luminaries of different eras. That can be the only reason the Bee Gees made it, for example. But then why aren't The Hollies or Cat Stevens or The Guess Who in? Traffic made it in but Derek and the Dominoes didn't? Yes to Black Sabbath, no to Blue Oyster Cult? It doesn't make any sense.

I agree there is some question as to why certain acts get in and others don't. And some you mentioned certainly seem deserving. While seemingly inexplicable, I think though, I like the broader scope of its supposed voting method (outlined on the Hall's site). It includes historians, by the way, and I'm guessing, once eligible, you can never not be ineligible.

[registerthis]

It's not the Hall of Longevity and Album Sales.

Not entirely, but that's a large portion of it. It is the hall of "fame", after all. The problem with things like the Rock Hall is that it attempts to place quantifiable metrics to something that is inherently immeasurable by those terms.

It's not just about musicianship, originality or influence--there are plenty of bands and artists who possess some or all of those criteria who will never see the inside of the Hall. Fame, notoriety and longevity also play a role. And simply because an artist's music may not be the most ground-breaking, interestign stuff on Earth does not mean that they did not contribute in other ways. What AC/DC did may have been pedestrian, but they did it exceptionally well--and their name, songs, sound, band members and logo are familiar to anyone with a whiff of an interest in hard rock.

Personally, I think artists like KISS or Eric Clapton are lacking in a number of qualities that I would assign to HoF inductees, but I also understand what they did that got them in there. Ditto a group like AC/DC.

[registerthis]

I think it's a great idea to honor the luminaries of different eras. That can be the only reason the Bee Gees made it, for example. But then why aren't The Hollies or Cat Stevens or The Guess Who in? Traffic made it in but Derek and the Dominoes didn't? Yes to Black Sabbath, no to Blue Oyster Cult? It doesn't make any sense.

I agree that there appears to be a great amount of inconsistency, but then that only serves as a reminder of the completely arbitrary process through which acts are inducted to begin with.

[BoydsOfSummer]

Air Supply, Loverboy, The Village People and Michael Freakin' Bolton are in there and people are questioning KISS? Great googly-moogly.

Iron Maiden should be in also.

[minus5]

Air Supply, Loverboy, The Village People and Michael Freakin' Bolton are in there and people are questioning KISS? Great googly-moogly.

Iron Maiden should be in also.


I don't believe that they are in there. They are simply all eligible.

[BoydsOfSummer]

Okay. They are eligible and people are questioning KISS? Great googly moogly! :D

[minus5]

There certainly are a lot of modern rock bands that cite KISS as a major influence on them. Then again a lot of modern rock band suck (see Nickleback) I kid, I Kid!! Not about them sucking but about the KISS thing. I like them, KISS that is. Nickleback, not so much.

[Yachtzee]

There certainly are a lot of modern rock bands that cite KISS as a major influence on them. Then again a lot of modern rock band suck (see Nickleback) I kid, I Kid!! Not about them sucking but about the KISS thing. I like them, KISS that is. Nickleback, not so much.

Too bad bands like Nickelback seem to have been influenced by the years when KISS went without make-up, as opposed to the years when KISS actually rocked.

[pedro]

KISS is a horrible band IMO. Other than 2 or 3 songs they're completely useless to me.

[Falls City Beer]

KISS is a horrible band IMO. Other than 2 or 3 songs they're completely useless to me.

Re-listen to Hotter than Hell. It's a great, and incredibly weird, album. (Though the drum production may be the single worst drum production I've ever heard).

[Ltlabner]

It's not the Hall of Longevity and Album Sales. If a band by its own admission makes the same album every year, particularly in a genre like "radio-friendly suburban rock," the band is historically disposable, IMHO.

So only "edgy" music that is considered out of the mainstream can be considered "important" or "worthy"? Please.

While I agree some of the people on the list are pretty lame, I absoulty disagree that if a musician/muscial act is widely popular and accepted that they are somehow horrible.

[minus5]

Re-listen to Hotter than Hell. It's a great, and incredibly weird, album. (Though the drum production may be the single worst drum production I've ever heard).

I like that album also. Honestly I liked a lot of their earlier stuff.

[Falls City Beer]

I like that album also. Honestly I liked a lot of their earlier stuff.

Their first three albums rule. I think they're a lot weirder and more inventive than people give them credit for.

Kiss would definitely be enshrined if I had a vote.

[minus5]

Their first three albums rule. I think they're a lot weirder and more inventive than people give them credit for.

Kiss would definitely be enshrined if I had a vote.

Up to albums like Unmasked (eeK) and Dynasty I liked a lot of their stuff. Too many people are turned off by the makeup thing. A friend of mine can't stand them and mostly just because of the makeup. Says he couldn't take them seriously because of it. He likes Alice Cooper though.....

[Falls City Beer]

Up to albums like Unmasked (eeK) and Dynasty I liked a lot of their stuff. Too many people are turned off by the makeup thing. A friend of mine can't stand them and mostly just because of the makeup. Says he couldn't take them seriously because of it. He likes Alice Cooper though.....

That's funny, I've liked Kiss forever, but always turned my nose up at Cooper. I think it was Alice Cooper's song titles ("Dead Babies," etc.) that I could never cotton to. Now I love them both.

One band I'd never vote for, even though I love one of their albums, is Van Halen (love Fair Warning): they always sounded like three studio musicians playing in the same room, not a cohesive band.

[Ltlabner]

Up to albums like Unmasked (eeK) and Dynasty I liked a lot of their stuff. Too many people are turned off by the makeup thing. A friend of mine can't stand them and mostly just because of the makeup. Says he couldn't take them seriously because of it. He likes Alice Cooper though.....

What does that mean exactly? I've heard people say that about different people over the years and I have no idea whatsoever what that means. It's music that comes out of a speaker. You either like it or you don't. It either connects with you on some level or it doesn't. What's to "take serriously"? Sometimes people waaaaaaaaay overthink music.

[Falls City Beer]

What does that mean exactly? I've heard people say that about different people over the years and I have no idea whatsoever what that means. It's music that comes out of a speaker. You either like it or you don't. It either connects with you on some level or it doesn't. What's to "take serriously"? Sometimes people waaaaaaaaay overthink music.

I guess I see what you mean, but you got to admit that there is a serious drop in gravitas from the sublime heights of "Like a Hurricane" to, say, Weird Al's "I'm Gonna Buy Me a Condo." I mean, no, neither is The Aeneid, but I can understand why someone's sensibility might be rubbed the wrong way by the lyrics being stupid as opposed to the music not grabbing them.

[Ltlabner]

I guess I see what you mean, but you got to admit that there is a serious drop in gravitas from the sublime heights of "Like a Hurricane" to, say, Weird Al's "I'm Gonna Buy Me a Condo." I mean, no, neither is The Aeneid, but I can understand why someone's sensibility might be rubbed the wrong way by the lyrics being stupid as opposed to the music not grabbing them.

Aren't the lyrics part of the music though?

As a musician (and now an actor) I have a preconcieved notion of Justin Timberlake, for example. I guess I'd say I have a hard time thinking of him as a musician, perhaps that's whats part of "taking them serriously" means. OTOH, I can't stop listening to "Rock your Body" either.

But I can see your point.

[registerthis]

(Though the drum production may be the single worst drum production I've ever heard).

Nah. The Church released an album in...1983, I believe, entitled "Remote Luxury". The drums on that album sound hideously awful. The 80s were a time when nearly all drums had that gated-reverb thing going on, and for the most part they all sounded like crap. But "Remote Luxury" took things to a new level of awfulness. The snare drum sounded like the drummer was whacking a linoleum floor with a spoon in a large concert hall. Blech.

[Redsland]

So only "edgy" music that is considered out of the mainstream can be considered "important" or "worthy"?

I absoulty disagree that if a musicial/muscial act is widely popular and accepted that they are somehow horrible.
I never said either of those things. I haven't decried the presence of popular, non-edgy Billy Joel in the Hall, although it begs the question why Steve Miller isn't there. And I gave a nod to Phil Collins in the other thread, which will probably cost me my Man Card.

In fact, their total lack of popular acceptance makes me want to question the presence of The Velvet Underground in the Hall. After all, how can you be "important" if so few people noticed you? In their case, though, I accept the opinion of musical historians who state that "although only a thousand people bought Velvet Underground albums, every one of them seemed to start a band." Therefore, they were important and influential despite low sales.

My criteria for the Hall would be (in no particular order):
1. Importance to and innovation within their genre (Beatles, Sex Pistols)
2. Widely influential to other musicians during and/or after their time (Pink Floyd, Elvis Costello)
3. Prolific and solid OR meteoric hit machine (Prince, Sly and the Family Stone)
4. Oustanding musicianship (Rush, Clapton)
5. Enough popularity to have achieved the name recognition demanded of a hall of "fame" (sorry 'bout that, Husker Du and Lemonheads).

[Ltlabner]

I never said either of those things. I haven't decried the presence of popular, non-edgy Billy Joel in the Hall, although it begs the question why Steve Miller isn't there. And I gave a nod to Phil Collins in the other thread, which will probably cost me my Man Card.

In fact, their total lack of popular acceptance makes me want to question the presence of The Velvet Underground in the Hall. After all, how can you be "important" if so few people noticed you? In their case, though, I accept the opinion of musical historians who state that "although only a thousand people bought Velvet Underground albums, every one of them seemed to start a band." Therefore, they were important and influential despite low sales.

My criteria for the Hall would be (in no particular order):
1. Importance to and innovation within their genre (Beatles, Sex Pistols)
2. Widely influential to other musicians during and/or after their time (Pink Floyd, Elvis Costello)
3. Prolific and solid OR meteoric hit machine (Prince, Sly and the Family Stone)
4. Oustanding musicianship (Rush, Clapton)
5. Enough popularity to have achieved the name recognition demanded of a hall of "fame" (sorry 'bout that, Husker Du and Lemonheads).

Oh....that makes total sense and I would agree with you with your criteron.

But I'd also argue that AC/DC meet numbers 2 and 3 on your list.

[westofyou]

Nah. The Church released an album in...1983, I believe, entitled "Remote Luxury". The drums on that album sound hideously awful. The 80s were a time when nearly all drums had that gated-reverb thing going on, and for the most part they all sounded like crap. But "Remote Luxury" took things to a new level of awfulness. The snare drum sounded like the drummer was whacking a linoleum floor with a spoon in a large concert hall. Blech.

The drummer from Crazy Horse sounds like he's building a shed, not drumming. I went to see Steve Earle a few years back and his kid came out on stage and played a big galvanized steel garbage can (new) that was hanging from a stand.

On the Green tour Michael Stipe played a metal chair with a metal bar, I think during World Leader Pretend.

[registerthis]

Oh....that makes total sense and I would agree with you with your criteron.

But I'd also argue that AC/DC meet numbers 2 and 3 on your list.

..and #5.

[registerthis]

I went to see Steve Earle a few years back and his kid came out on stage and played a big galvanized steel garbage can (new) that was hanging from a stand.

That describes the "Remote Luxury" snare sound pretty well.

[redsmetz]

The drummer from Crazy Horse sounds like he's building a shed, not drumming. I went to see Steve Earle a few years back and his kid came out on stage and played a big galvanized steel garbage can (new) that was hanging from a stand.

On the Green tour Michael Stipe played a metal chair with a metal bar, I think during World Leader Pretend.

When I was in high school, I very briefly managed a couple of acts. One was a guitar playing folk singer with percussion accompaniment, a guy playing a briefcase. He did give me my only live performance when he was booked in to a church coffee house and couldn't go on stage because he'd taken a horse tranquilizer (so I was told). So I jammed with his other guitarist. One hour of blues riffs - snooze..... He did perform at the open afternoon for high school kids at Reflections though, but then again that's not saying much. The scene was this 16 year old punk "music executive" sitting with the manager of Zino's auditioning. God love him, he was decent enough not to laugh us out of the joint.

[westofyou]

He did give me my only live performance when he was booked in to a church coffee house and couldn't go on stage because he'd taken a horse tranquilizer (so I was told).

1967 PCP is marketed under the name Sernylan as a tranquilizer and anesthetic for animals.

[Falls City Beer]

Nah. The Church released an album in...1983, I believe, entitled "Remote Luxury". The drums on that album sound hideously awful. The 80s were a time when nearly all drums had that gated-reverb thing going on, and for the most part they all sounded like crap. But "Remote Luxury" took things to a new level of awfulness. The snare drum sounded like the drummer was whacking a linoleum floor with a spoon in a large concert hall. Blech.

On Hotter than Hell it sounds like Peter Criss is flattening hamburger patties, not drumming.

[redsmetz]

1967 PCP is marketed under the name Sernylan as a tranquilizer and anesthetic for animals.

Yikes! I knew he was into some nasty stuff, but that's way ahead of the curve. I was lucky to stay away from that end of that group of folks.

[vaticanplum]

If my brain were working better, I'd love to involve myself in this discussion.

Instead I think I'll just watch these a hundred million times. This just about made my week:

http://www.complex.com/blogs/?p=1538