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View Full Version : I still hate Tsitouris



redsupport
01-09-2007, 01:41 AM
why did he start the last game. I am still irate

reds44
01-09-2007, 01:41 AM
Who? What? huh?

redsupport
01-09-2007, 01:43 AM
1964, learn a little history

reds44
01-09-2007, 01:44 AM
1964, learn a little history
My bad? I'm sorry I don't know what happend in 1964, 25 years before I was born. It also seemed a bit random to go along with your Chad Moller is good thread.

bthomasiscool
01-09-2007, 01:44 AM
sounds like somebodies a little upset after the OSU game?

redsupport
01-09-2007, 01:45 AM
1964 was key the reds were done in by the deft fielding of Alex Johnson

bthomasiscool
01-09-2007, 01:46 AM
Geesh you must be mad, you were one year old!

redsupport
01-09-2007, 01:49 AM
no I am not mad about Tsitouris I am irretrievably, and irreconcialibly irate that Sisler pitched Tsitouris

savafan
01-09-2007, 05:56 AM
no I am not mad about Tsitouris I am irretrievably, and irreconcialibly irate that Sisler pitched Tsitouris

or you're just really handy at knowing how to use baseball-reference.com ;)

Reverend Doo-Rag
01-09-2007, 07:55 AM
Bill McCool is the antichrist.

RFS62
01-09-2007, 08:14 AM
Yep, that was one sad day. The stars were lined up for a miracle, and we send out Tsitouris.

I heard that he showed up at the park with his car packed to leave for home.

MrCinatit
01-09-2007, 08:58 AM
If only McCovey had hit the ball two feet higher.

Roy Tucker
01-09-2007, 09:46 AM
John Tsitouris was the 1964 equivalent of a 1999 Steve Parris in the play-in game against the Mets.

1964 National League pennant race, an absolute classic. Unfortunately, the Reds came up short. 1964, the year I learned heartache as a Reds fan.

http://www.cincypost.com/2004/10/01/wheeler10-01-2004.html

'64 race was one for ages


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Column by The Post's Lonnie Wheeler

Forty years later, Jim O'Toole can still see the whole scene from the on-deck circle at Crosley Field, where he waited to bat in the bottom of the seventh inning.
It was Friday night, the final weekend of the 1964 season, and the Reds led the Philadelphia Phillies 3-0, ready to reassume first place in one of the greatest pennant races the National League has ever seen. The Phillies, meanwhile, were two days from disappearing deep into some distant woods to blast away their miseries with the hunting rifles they had bought in foolish anticipation of World Series checks.

The race had been theirs all summer. Jim Bunning had pitched a perfect game on Father's Day. Johnny Callison was looking like a Most Valuable Player. Gene Mauch was making all the right moves as manager. With a dozen games to play, Philadelphia led by 6 ½, leaving the Reds, Cardinals and Giants to jostle for second place.

Cincinnati and St. Louis, however, were not yet in surrender modes, even in late September. The Cardinals were determined to win the pennant for Bing Devine, the popular general manager who had traded for Lou Brock just before the June 15 deadline but was fired in August, replaced by Bob Howsam. The Reds, meanwhile, wanted dearly to do something special for Fred Hutchinson, the intrepid manager who was overtaken that year by lung cancer and supplanted on Aug. 13 by Dick Sisler, the son of Hall of Famer George Sisler and the former Whiz Kid whose final-day home run had brought the Phillies their memorable pennant in 1950.

Of the two, the Reds seemed to attack the final weeks with a more inspired vengeance. When the teams met in a Sept. 19 doubleheader at Crosley Field -- where, in Pete Rose's second season, attendance averaged just over 10,000 a game -- Bob Gibson held a 5-0 lead in the opener, only to lose on Frank Robinson's 3-run, ninth-inning homer. The next day, the Reds came back from a 6-0 deficit to beat the Cardinals 9-6 and wrest second place from St. Louis.

But the Phillies still led by 6 ½ games when Cincinnati moved on to Philadelphia for a three-game series beginning Sept. 21. The home team's pitcher that night was Art Mahaffey of Western Hills High School. The Reds went with spot-starter John Tsitouris. The two toiled scorelessly into the sixth inning, when, with two outs and the great Robinson at bat, Chico ("bench me or trade me") Ruiz had the cockeyed idea to steal home. He made it. The game ended 1-0, and so, effectively, did Philadelphia's season.

Beginning with that unforgettable night, the Phillies would go on to lose 10 straight games, pulling off the most ignominious collapse in major-league history. Cincinnati almost simultaneously won nine in a row, taking over first place in New York by sweeping a doubleheader with the Mets for the second time in three days.

When they returned home for their final five games, the Reds were met at the airport by a happy throng of thousands, including Hutchinson, the raging, revered skipper who by then was fearfully thin. The Reds had watched their bearish leader deteriorate over the long summer, which was particularly hard for O'Toole.

"I had a special feeling for Hutch," the lefty said. "He was the one who really pulled us all together. When he became the manager, he gave me the ball every four days. From the middle of 1959 to the day he died, I was about 86-60.

"But halfway through the '64 season, he just couldn't do it anymore. One eye sagged down. His boy always wore the number 1 uniform like his dad, and he started limping just like his dad. How Hutch ever got to the airport to congratulate us was unbelievable."

The Pirates were in town, and on the next two nights, in front of crowds not much bigger than that which had stormed the airport, the Reds were shut out by first Bob Friend and then Bob Veale, who outlasted Jim Maloney in a 1-0, 16-inning struggle. But Cincinnati won the finale, starting the final weekend -- strangely, there was no game scheduled for Saturday -- a half-game behind St. Louis and two ahead of both San Francisco and Philadelphia. It was such a tangle that a four-way tie was conceivable.

The Reds, though, had grander ideas. "I think everybody felt like we had it done," said Joe Nuxhall. "The Phillies, in all honesty, were just saying, 'Hey, let's get it over with.' ''

And they played like it; at least for seven innings. O'Toole, the Reds' best pitcher and biggest winner that year, had them totally silenced with only six more outs to get, and as he knelt in the on-deck circle, was hoping his team would pad its three-run lead against Phillies left-hander Chris Short. That was when Short hit Leo Cardenas in the thigh with a slider.

With his bat still gripped, Cardenas took off, seething, toward the mound, at which point the anger shifted to the Philadelphia side. "That just lit them up," said Nuxhall. "After that, things went haywire for us."

O'Toole was uneasy about what Cardenas did, but it wasn't until the top of the eighth that his pique was directed squarely at the Cincinnati shortstop, who didn't bother to take ground balls while the club warmed up. Then, with one out, Frank Thomas hit an infield bloop that Cardenas made little attempt to catch.

"I don't know where he was at," O'Toole said, "but I was so frustrated to see that happen with so much on the line."

The frustration mounted when Sisler went to the bullpen for Billy McCool, leaving the lefty in to face right-handed rookie slugger Richie Allen. Allen's triple gave the Phillies a 4-3 lead that stood up.

In the clubhouse after the game, O'Toole had harsh words for Cardenas and shoved him up against a wall. Cardenas responded by pulling an ice pick on the Cincinnati pitcher. The Reds were unraveling.

In St. Louis, however, the Mets' Alvin Jackson was besting Gibson 1-0. New York won again Saturday, leaving the Reds and Cardinals tied heading into the final game, with the Phillies one back. The Giants had been eliminated Saturday.

Bunning started Sunday on two days' rest, but Maloney was still worn out from the 11 hard innings he had pitched against Pittsburgh. Sisler went instead with Tsitouris, who was not up to the occasion. The revitalized Phillies were all over Cincinnati, 10-0.

Even so, a three-way tie remained possible when the Cardinals trailed the Mets 3-2 in the middle innings. But after Gibson -- who hadn't slept after Friday's defeat -- rallied his team with four innings of gutsy, scoreless relief, St. Louis had won the pennant.

Or the Reds had lost it, perhaps needlessly. "When you wake up the sleeping dog, that's what happens," reflected O'Toole. "It was terrible that we couldn't win."

It was worse that, on November 12, Hutchinson died at the age of 45. The following year, his number was the first that the Reds retired.

On that day, much like this one and every final Friday for the past 40 baseball seasons, O'Toole was visited by the melancholy memory of 1964. He feels now what he felt then.

"We should have won it for Hutch," he said.

Publication Date: 10-01-2004

Heath
01-09-2007, 10:41 AM
Tsitouris drew the short straw - Maloney was overthrown.

Interesting that Sisler never thought of "bullpen day".

westofyou
01-09-2007, 11:12 AM
why did he start the last game. I am still irate

He drew the short straw. It's a fact.

WVRedsFan
01-09-2007, 12:46 PM
Yep, that was one sad day. The stars were lined up for a miracle, and we send out Tsitouris.

I heard that he showed up at the park with his car packed to leave for home.

Same story I got. Never like the guy. At the time I was 15 and thought he and Johnny Tillotson were the same guy. I trashed all his records. :-)

J/K, of course, but Tsitouris would be our No. 2 starter if he were on the team today. Back in those days we had better pitching. Of course, you can almost pick any era (with some notable exceptions) and find the Reds with better pitching!

WVRedsFan
01-09-2007, 12:48 PM
He drew the short straw. It's a fact.

That was because Maloney couldn't or wouldn't pitch, right?

I'd like to hear the entire story. We need Maloney to write a tell-all book about the 60's Reds.

westofyou
01-09-2007, 01:17 PM
That was because Maloney couldn't or wouldn't pitch, right?

I'd like to hear the entire story. We need Maloney to write a tell-all book about the 60's Reds.

Maloney had not pitched in 3 days and felt not ready, he wanted 4 days in case there was a playoff (whoops)

Anyway here's his line from his last game that year on 9-30


Cincinnati Reds IP H R ER BB SO HR
Maloney 11 3 0 0 2 13 0
Ellis 2 0 0 0 0 4 0
Tsitouris L(9-12) 2.2 2 1 1 1 2 0
Henry 0.1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Totals 16 5 1 1 3 19 0

Maloney once threw 136 pitches in 1961 in a 5 inning game, I imagine this game there was quite the amount of throws as well.

According to O'Toole Sisler lost control of the clubhouse (Leo and O'Toole got in a fight about a dropped fly ball) and his assertion was if Hutch was there he would have cleared it up.

But Hutch was sick, so sick that in ST they built a lifeguard like tower for him to sit behind HP.

http://www.baseballminutia.com/images/hutch1.jpg

RANDY IN INDY
01-09-2007, 01:34 PM
That was because Maloney couldn't or wouldn't pitch, right?

I'd like to hear the entire story. We need Maloney to write a tell-all book about the 60's Reds.

Maloney could do it. He is a "master" storyteller.

Degenerate39
01-09-2007, 03:27 PM
Such a sad story

Roy Tucker
01-09-2007, 03:49 PM
My dumb little story about that game.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1107922&postcount=18

redsupport
01-09-2007, 06:32 PM
more analysis should have been out into why the Reds could not score any runs vs. the Pirates in game i and 2 of the series. They wasted two beautifully pitched games

westofyou
01-09-2007, 07:02 PM
more analysis should have been out into why the Reds could not score any runs vs. the Pirates in game i and 2 of the series. They wasted two beautifully pitched games

Because Robinson and Johnson choked, Johnson had 5 K's in the Wednesday game.... ouch... and here I thought that was only in todays game.

Superdude
01-09-2007, 07:48 PM
I am still irate

Talk about holding a grudge! I guess you have to get rid of 52 year old pent up anger somehow.

BenHayes
01-09-2007, 07:56 PM
Oh man those great memories when i was a boy of thirteen. The Reds were everything to me Vada Pinson, Jim Maloney and company. You know i had almost forgotten about Johnny Tsitouris from Monroe N.C. He was sort of like the 1964 version of Steve Parris. Great memories of days gone by.

redsupport
01-09-2007, 08:04 PM
why did nuxhall pitch to mccovey on JUne 17th blowing a 2-1 lead

westofyou
01-09-2007, 08:09 PM
why did nuxhall pitch to mccovey on JUne 17th blowing a 2-1 lead

Gotta go with the Lefty matchup, plus Nuxy was one of the few who could strike out Mccovey.

LINEDRIVER
01-09-2007, 09:44 PM
Here's my 2 cents........

Reds' mgr Dick Sisler may have picked Tsitouris over Maloney because Maloney threw 11 innings in his previous start and Maloney would be available to go the next game if there was a tie in the standings. Tsitouris wasn't exactly a Matt Belisle starting the last game of the year with everything on the line. Tsitouris appeared in 7 games in September '64 with a 2.32 ERA. Four of those 7 appearances came as a starting pitcher. In those 4 starts, he went 2-1 with a 1.69 ERA. In his previous start against the Phillies, on Sept 21, he tossed a 6 hit shutout with 8 whiffs.

Tsitouris, who Pete Rose called "Tits", faced the Phillies that Sunday and things went smooth for the first 2 innings. Pitcher Jim Bunning whiffed to open the bottom of the third-inning and then the wheels fell off. A walk, a double, an intentional walk, and a single. The Phillies scored 2 runs out of that and Tsitouris was yanked from the game. Nuxhall replaced Tsitouris. Tony Taylor's single off Nuxie scored Philadelphia's third run of the game. The Reds used a total of 7 pitchers that day. Joey Jay allowed 5 ER on 5 hits in his 2/3 inning of relief work.

I just wanted correct anyone who might of assumed Tits got raked over the coals all day long. IMO, a bigger problem for the Reds that day was facing pitcher Jim Bunning, a premier pitcher in those days.

IMO, a 1964 version of Jim Bunning would be the game's top pitcher in 2007.