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View Full Version : Ozzie Smith vs Barry Larkin



savafan
01-02-2007, 04:40 AM
Disregard this post. TRF's post below is the first post in this thread.

macro

TRF
01-08-2007, 11:17 AM
Davey will likely not get in until it goes to the Veteran's committee. And seeing as how Joe Morgan is on that committee, I think he gets in in his first or second year.

Larkin becomes elligible in a couple of years. His career and Ozzie's overlap in the same way that Davey's and Ozzie's overlap. And really, offensively, it isn't even close. The only thing Ozzie did was run more. Not better, just more. Larkin had the better SB%

Bary had the superior BA, OBP, SLG. He had more 2B, 3B, HR, RBI and Runs, and he did it in 1459 fewer AB's. He received more 1st place votes for MVP in his career and won the award once.

If Larkin was behind Ozzie defensively, it wasn't by much. What Ozzie did have was health. Nearly 1500 more AB's in the same number of years. Yet despite this, Larkin has superior stats in almost every offensive category.

Somehow Barry Larkin is looked at as a borderline HOFer. This is mind boggling to me.

RedsManRick
01-08-2007, 11:31 AM
I think Barry is going to be remembered for his bat and his injuries and his defensive reputation will be somewhat overlooked -- partially due to Ozzie's reputation stealing a few GG in the early 90's.

Did you realize Barry only got 500+ AB 6 times? Only 140+ games 7 times. He lost over 20% of his career to injuries.

If you take his top 10 comps from BR, I think it paints a very interesting picture:

1. Alan Trammell (915)
2. Ryne Sandberg (865) *
3. Derek Jeter (849)
4. Joe Cronin (847) *
5. Lou Whitaker (842)
6. Roberto Alomar (840)
7. Jay Bell (840)
8. Pee Wee Reese (837) *
9. Tony Fernandez (830)
10. Joe Torre (813)

Of his 6 top comps, 2 are HOFers, 2 are sure fire HOFers (Alomar & Jeter), and 2 should be HOF (Trammel & Whittaker). As you get further down the list, you get in to the territory of real good but not HOF (Bell, Fernandez, Torre).

I'm guessing he gets something like 40-45% the first go 'round and that number slowly climbs until he gets in during a year with a weak ballot on his 5th or 6th attempt. Oddly enough, I think being the first 30-30 SS could play as heavily in his favor as his MVP.

An addendum, I love this:


June 7, 1982: Drafted by the Cincinnati Reds in the 2nd round of the 1982 amateur draft, but did not sign.

June 3, 1985: Drafted by the Cincinnati Reds in the 1st round (4th pick) of the 1985 amateur draft.

October 29, 2004: Granted Free Agency.

That's his entire transaction history. Thank you Lindner for not letting JB trade him for Alex Escobar. In hindsight, JB wouldn't have spent that money well anyways and Escobar was a bust. The memory of Larkin wearing nothing but Red is worth it.

redsmetz
01-08-2007, 11:47 AM
I'm hoping voters will realize that Larkin was among the first bridging the defensive shortstop era and the offensive shortstop era. Maybe I'm not putting that correctly. I've also been struck with how two great Reds shortstops sandwich Ozzie Smith, perhaps to Davey and Barry's detriment.

dougdirt
01-08-2007, 01:06 PM
If Barry went out and did backflips, his chances would be better....

TRF
01-08-2007, 01:21 PM
If Barry went out and did backflips, his chances would be better....

If he did backflips he'd have 3,000 fewer AB's.

dougdirt
01-08-2007, 01:29 PM
LOL very good point TRF....but that wasnt exactly my point haha.

westofyou
01-08-2007, 01:33 PM
If Barry went out and did backflips, his chances would be better....

http://www.deadballart.com/redszone/ws90.gif

RANDY IN INDY
01-08-2007, 02:45 PM
i remember that, woy.

max venable
01-08-2007, 08:43 PM
I think he'll have very little trouble getting in the hall. He's likable. He'll get the votes...for the same reason he got the MVP votes in '95. Was he the best player in the NL that year? Probably not...but the voters liked him...and they gave him the award based on solid numbers and "intangibles." I think it'll work the same way when it comes to the HOF.

RedsBaron
01-08-2007, 08:48 PM
Barry Larkin was a better shortstop, and more deserving of the Hall of Fame, than Ozzie Smith, but that doesn't mean that he will get as many HOF votes as Ozzie.

westofyou
01-09-2007, 02:14 PM
An addendum, I love this:

That's his entire transaction history. Thank you Lindner for not letting JB trade him for Alex Escobar. In hindsight, JB wouldn't have spent that money well anyways and Escobar was a bust. The memory of Larkin wearing nothing but Red is worth it.

http://washington.nationals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070107&content_id=1774601&vkey=news_was&fext=.jsp&c_id=was




With Sammy Sosa poised for a comeback and the Nats lacking power hitters, are they likely to make him another offer, like last year?
-- Steve H., Odenton. Md.

Not a chance. The Nationals are committed to allowing players such as Kory Casto and Alex Escobar to fight for the left-field job.

RedsManRick
01-09-2007, 02:22 PM
Interesting. In Escobar's defense, he tore up the Eastern League (AA) in 122 AB last year. That said, he is 2 years older than Chris Denorfia, who some people seem to think is past prospect status and should be considered a AAAA guy...

Jpup
01-09-2007, 02:27 PM
wrong thread. sorry.