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Ltlabner
01-11-2007, 04:19 PM
Ok, I am not the pefect parent, nor are my children perfect. Also, I don't expect anyone else to have perfect children because they are all...well...children.

Dear all parents of children less than 15 years old,

Here are some thoughts that have been on my mind for a while. Enjoy.

Because your children are hyper, unruly and disobediant does not mean they are "bright for their age". It means they are hyper, unruly and disobediant. And you are "slow for a parent". And because you can't controll them doesn't mean they are ADHD.

Your children are not the most precious resource on the planet. Air and water fill that role nicely. Nor are they fragile little beings. Resist the urge to protect them at all costs unless, of course, you plan to fight their battles for them when they are 54 year old.

The word "NO" will not harm your children in any way. In fact, not hearing "no" enough causes more harm. Give it a try a few times.

When you TELL your child to do something stop saying "Trevor please...." or "Hilliary please....". That's called asking. You are the parent, tell them what you want them to do/not do.

Self esteeme is not the holy grail.

Competition is not bad. You better get them used to it now. Their future boss thanks you.

Children will not die if they are not involved in 15 after school activities at once. One at a time will suffice. If you choose to haul Chance and Dakota to every last activity you forefit your right to complain about traffic, the price of gas or how you don't have enough family time.

Try words like grounded, punished, disciplined, taught a lesson and rebuked. Spanking is a good one also but I understand not everybody agrees with it. "Time out" is for football games not grooming children into adults.

If the school teacher punishes your child consider that the teacher may be right and your kid was out of line. Kids in school are generally monsters so chances are good your innocent little Chyanne needed to be disciplined.

Resturants are for eating not for your child to perform. If that were the case TGIF Fridays would have a stage.

Children should play. This involves injury, physical contact and a pretty good chance of something exploding. "Play dates" are chances for stay-at-home moms to hang out. Children do not need 24/7 supervision to perform what used to be called playing.

What happend to names like Mike, Bill, Sam, Mary, Sally, and Meg? Were they outlawed and I missed it?

As you prepare to delete this rant from your memory banks, try to store away this one little nugget. Your sole job as a parent is to prepare your children to be successfull adults. I am tired of having to pay the price because you found it easier to be little Dace's best friend instead of being a parent.

WMR
01-11-2007, 04:27 PM
There's a kid named "Dace"?

deltachi8
01-11-2007, 04:28 PM
[I]

What happend to names like Mike, Bill, Sam, Mary, Sally, and Meg? Were they outlawed and I missed it?



My 10 year old Sam says hi. :wave:

BoydsOfSummer
01-11-2007, 04:36 PM
1.) Whip

2.) Their

3.) Asses

flyer85
01-11-2007, 04:56 PM
Couple of my favorite sayings to my daughter when she was/is growing up(she's 16 now)

1) She was whiny in the age 3-4 range. I would remind her by asking "Would you like some cheese with that?"
2) When she got older and would get self-absorbed I would admonish her with "It's not all about you".

Kids will misbehave, make mistakes, etc. I think the most important thing a parent can teach in this age of narcissism is to teach their children there's a lot more to life than analyzing how it affects them personally. I have tried to give her a vision being outward focused on others and instead of inward focused on herself. Then again that issue is one that is a constant struggle for adults(including myself), excepting those who don't care that they are completely self-absorbed.

I have never tried to be my daughter's best friend, that is not my role. If they don't appreciate you for it now they likely will later. By my late teens I was certain my parents were the two dumbest and most backward people I had ever met. Somehow by my mid 20s they managed to get a lot smarter.

Ltlabner
01-11-2007, 05:00 PM
There's a kid named "Dace"?

Mrs Ltlabner is a teacher and has worked at the local YMCA for 13 years. You'd be completly shocked by some of the odd, goofy and down-right bizzare names some kids are shackled with.

bucksfan
01-11-2007, 05:00 PM
... I think the most important thing a parent can teach in this age of narcissism is to teach their children there's a lot more to life than analyzing how it affects them personally. I have tried to give her a vision being outward focused on others and instead of inward focused on herself. Then again that issue is one that is a constant struggle for adults(including myself), excepting those who don't care that they are completely self-absorbed.


That sounds like wonderful advice. I wish very much to impart that kind of thinking on my daughter as she is growing up (she just turned 5).

Roy Tucker
01-11-2007, 05:13 PM
One thing I'll add is let your kids struggle a little bit. Sometimes you need to be in over your head a little bit to find out you can go places you didn't think you could go.

Of course, your job as a parent is to not let it go too far. But letting it go a while builds a little character.

And teach them how to speak to adults in a coherent, respectful, and polite fashion. And use Mr. and Mrs. (I think I'm in the minority on this though).

redsfanfalcon
01-11-2007, 05:21 PM
Thank you! I am a teacher, and it is amazing at the number of parents that do not support the teacher when their son/daughter does something wrong and they need to be disciplined for it. They never think it is possible their little child could ever do something wrong.

redsfanmia
01-11-2007, 06:02 PM
Mrs Ltlabner is a teacher and has worked at the local YMCA for 13 years. You'd be completly shocked by some of the odd, goofy and down-right bizzare names some kids are shackled with.

My favorite is FeMale.

creek14
01-11-2007, 06:26 PM
My favorite is FeMale.

When I was in college my next door nursing student neighbors came home one night from the hospital nearly hysterical. Seems a woman had given birth to a baby girl and named her <drum roll> Vagina.

Somewhere in Illinois there is now a 27 year old Vagina walking around. :cool:

redsfan30
01-11-2007, 06:35 PM
When I was in college my next door nursing student neighbors came home one night from the hospital nearly hysterical. Seems a woman had given birth to a baby girl and named her <drum roll> Vagina.

Somewhere in Illinois there is now a 27 year old Vagina walking around. :cool:

:eek:

Was it pronounced like you'd assume? Or was it pronounced differently?

WVRed
01-11-2007, 07:25 PM
And teach them how to speak to adults in a coherent, respectful, and polite fashion. And use Mr. and Mrs. (I think I'm in the minority on this though).

I think I did a thread on this at one point.

What amazes me is going to college now and having professors say "Do not call me Mr. or Professor, my name is 'Joe' ", or whatever.


Because your children are hyper, unruly and disobediant does not mean they are "bright for their age". It means they are hyper, unruly and disobediant. And you are "slow for a parent". And because you can't controll them doesn't mean they are ADHD.

My thoughts on AD(H)D can be well summarized by South Park.:)

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1616131920

GAC
01-11-2007, 08:21 PM
I got two teenagers and an 11 yr old.... Aaron, Rachel, and Samuel. We're trying our best to save the 11 yr old. ;)

We named our kids after beloved relatives. My Dad came from a very large farm family, raised during the depression. Those people didn't know how to name their kids. Names like Alfred, Ned, Maurice, Ethel. I'll stop there because there were 12 of them. He wanted one of his kids to name one of their grandchildren after his Dad (Sylvester), and there was no way I was giving any of my kids that name. My oldest boy's initials are the same as my Dad's "AGC".

My daughter (15) is the middle child and the worst of the lot. I can deal with her, and we have a pretty good relationship. She's very athletic and a tomboy. She is very active in about everything at school, and always has something on her plate. My wife has a hard time understanding her because she comes from a very small introverted family . Mine was very extroverted. I just tell my wife I can relate to Rachel because she is an exact clone of me (except with breasts). :lol:

KittyDuran
01-11-2007, 09:09 PM
I have never tried to be my daughter's best friend, that is not my role. If they don't appreciate you for it now they likely will later. By my late teens I was certain my parents were the two dumbest and most backward people I had ever met. Somehow by my mid 20s they managed to get a lot smarter. The older I get the smarter my parents get...:thumbup: I've never have looked as my parents as friends - even getting close to 50. Heck, I didn't even know my parents' real names until I was about 6 years old!


What happend to names like Mike, Bill, Sam, Mary, Sally, and Meg? Were they outlawed and I missed it? or Cathy? (no not Katlin). Tho' I have seen more Catherines around. When I was growing up if a kid had the names that you hear now - they would have been laughed at. The girls names - I call them old-fashioned names - Emma, Abigal, Grace, etc. are prevalent now. So it all goes in cycles. When my oldest sister was born (1949) the "ettes" were popular with girls - her name is Claudette, but you had Paulette, Georgette, Annette, Jeanette, etc. Also many names were shorten or changed including my name, Catherine (Cathy, Kate, Kitty), William (Bill or Will), Charles (Chuck), Margaret (Peg), Sandra (Sandy), etc. Anyhoo, I was named after my Mom, Great Aunt and Great-Grandmother - Catherine was their middle names (Helen Catherine, China Catherine and Selena Catherine).

And what about naming kids after states? Florida, Georgia, Virgina (of course, now they're called Dakota, Montana and Nevada). Months? April, May, June. How about towns? I have two nephews named Dallas and Mason. John Taylor (of DD) named his daughter, Atlanta. How about flowers? Rose, Daisy, Violet (think of the British sitcom, "Keeping Up Appearances").

Then they're names that come out of the blue.. like Bige. There are three in my Dad's family so to differentiate (when they were all alive) they were called Big Bige, Little Bige and Bad Bige. :laugh:

GAC
01-11-2007, 09:19 PM
I think some people get ideas for names after walking through the pharmacy....

"Hi, this is my daughter Tylenol, and my twin boys Advil and Motrin." :lol:

vaticanplum
01-11-2007, 09:21 PM
And teach them how to speak to adults in a coherent, respectful, and polite fashion. And use Mr. and Mrs. (I think I'm in the minority on this though).

I still call everybody Mr. and Mrs. if they're not my direct equal in a work setting. I cannot get out of it. And I've never had a problem with questioning authority or that kind of thing, but this is one thing I guess was just drilled into me. It actually drives people nuts that they can't break me of it. It's a sign of the times, Roy; that's just how people are addressed these days.

I also can't get rid of ma'am or sir, and that I think comes from waitressing. I call the gas station attendant sir, I call everybody sir. It's ironic because I hate it when people call me ma'am, but I can't get out of this either.

I dunno about all this stuff...I'm no parent, but all my little cousins are very good kids and i think it's almost as much what they see as what they're taught. My aunts and uncles are respectful and considerate of each other, of other people, of the kids even. Kids pick up on that. they're well-disciplined too, I guess. Some of them have Italian names...would those be considered weird?

James B.
01-11-2007, 10:43 PM
Ok, I am not the pefect parent, nor are my children perfect. Also, I don't expect anyone else to have perfect children because they are all...well...children.

Dear all parents of children less than 15 years old,

Here are some thoughts that have been on my mind for a while. Enjoy.

Because your children are hyper, unruly and disobediant does not mean they are "bright for their age". It means they are hyper, unruly and disobediant. And you are "slow for a parent". And because you can't controll them doesn't mean they are ADHD.

Your children are not the most precious resource on the planet. Air and water fill that role nicely. Nor are they fragile little beings. Resist the urge to protect them at all costs unless, of course, you plan to fight their battles for them when they are 54 year old.

The word "NO" will not harm your children in any way. In fact, not hearing "no" enough causes more harm. Give it a try a few times.

When you TELL your child to do something stop saying "Trevor please...." or "Hilliary please....". That's called asking. You are the parent, tell them what you want them to do/not do.

Self esteeme is not the holy grail.

Competition is not bad. You better get them used to it now. Their future boss thanks you.

Children will not die if they are not involved in 15 after school activities at once. One at a time will suffice. If you choose to haul Chance and Dakota to every last activity you forefit your right to complain about traffic, the price of gas or how you don't have enough family time.

Try words like grounded, punished, disciplined, taught a lesson and rebuked. Spanking is a good one also but I understand not everybody agrees with it. "Time out" is for football games not grooming children into adults.

If the school teacher punishes your child consider that the teacher may be right and your kid was out of line. Kids in school are generally monsters so chances are good your innocent little Chyanne needed to be disciplined.

Resturants are for eating not for your child to perform. If that were the case TGIF Fridays would have a stage.

Children should play. This involves injury, physical contact and a pretty good chance of something exploding. "Play dates" are chances for stay-at-home moms to hang out. Children do not need 24/7 supervision to perform what used to be called playing.

What happend to names like Mike, Bill, Sam, Mary, Sally, and Meg? Were they outlawed and I missed it?

As you prepare to delete this rant from your memory banks, try to store away this one little nugget. Your sole job as a parent is to prepare your children to be successfull adults. I am tired of having to pay the price because you found it easier to be little Dace's best friend instead of being a parent.


This is a great post.:thumbup:

15fan
01-11-2007, 11:18 PM
Your children are not the most precious resource on the planet. Air and water fill that role nicely. Nor are they fragile little beings. Resist the urge to protect them at all costs unless, of course, you plan to fight their battles for them when they are 54 year old.

Resource? No. Not in the global sense.

But when my daughter is 54, I'll be 84. I'll need someone to change my Depends, wipe the drool from my chin, remind me to take my medicines, and make sure that I'm getting the care I need. That's where the kiddo comes in. It's the grand circle of life.

And though I'm certainly no developmental expert, it's unreal how much a child's personality, behaviors and understanding of the world are formed at such a young age.


The word "NO" will not harm your children in any way. In fact, not hearing "no" enough causes more harm. Give it a try a few times.

Believe me...there are plenty of emphatic Nos dished out in our house as well as in public.


When you TELL your child to do something stop saying "Trevor please...." or "Hilliary please....". That's called asking. You are the parent, tell them what you want them to do/not do.

It's an easy trap to fall into. Kids learn to answer "No" to just about any question at a pretty early age. So there are plenty of orders dished out in our house.

But the flip side is that little kids don't possess very advanced capabilities to reason. They learn a LOT by repetition. It's like math flash cards. You show the kid over and over and over and over that the proper way to speak is to say things like "please" and "thank you". Eventually it sinks in. If all you ever do is bark orders at your kid, you're going to end up with an adolescent or grownup who only knows how to bark orders back at the rest of society.


Self esteeme is not the holy grail.

But spelling is. ;)


As you prepare to delete this rant from your memory banks, try to store away this one little nugget. Your sole job as a parent is to prepare your children to be successfull adults. I am tired of having to pay the price because you found it easier to be little Dace's best friend instead of being a parent.

That's fine. Just remember that at one point, each of us was a screaming 2 year old, a self-conscious 13 year-old, or a 7 year-old who just learned a tough life lesson the hard way. People were undoubtedly patient with you then, so try to play along with just a little flexibility. If you don't want the responsibility of being a parent, that's cool. It's not for everyone. But understand that in our own way, those of us who have chosen to perpetuate the species are giving it our best shot. Nothing, and I mean nothing in life is more intimidating than pulling out of the hospital parking lot with your first newborn in the backseat of the car with you. There is no warranty. There is no owner's manual. There is no 24 hour tech support or reset button. There are no trade-ins or weekends off as a parent. It's not like a 9 to 5 job where you can mentally check out when you walk out the door at 5pm. It's 24/7/365 until the day you die.

But it's also more rewarding and fulfilling than I could have ever imagined it to be.

Red in Chicago
01-11-2007, 11:27 PM
1.) Whip

2.) Their

3.) Asses

i don't have any children, but that would be my mantra...it worked for my parents:laugh:

have you ever noticed parents who give the kid the countdown to three...unfortunately, the kid has no fear of the parent, since they know nothing will ever happen after 2 1/2...i have no respect for the countdown...complete waste of time and energy

bucksfan
01-11-2007, 11:40 PM
i don't have any children, but that would be my mantra...it worked for my parents:laugh:

have you ever noticed parents who give the kid the countdown to three...unfortunately, the kid has no fear of the parent, since they know nothing will ever happen after 2 1/2...i have no respect for the countdown...complete waste of time and energy

We do that and it works just fine, thank you.

BUTLER REDSFAN
01-11-2007, 11:45 PM
My soon to be 13 year old daughter asked me if she could make her own myspace page(I've heard a lot of bad things about it)I told her no....she hasnt talked to me now in 2 days...next time we hear about another kid getting raped/abducted/killed cause they were found on one of these sites i guess she'll understand then.

TeamCasey
01-12-2007, 04:56 AM
And use Mr. and Mrs. (I think I'm in the minority on this though).

I completely agree with this.

SunDeck
01-12-2007, 06:48 AM
I would have agreed with the "hyper" part of the rant until I had two kids. One of mine is probably in the "hyper" category- he's high strung, very emotional, extremely energetic, has a pretty short attention span and is probably the kind of kid that is annoying Ltlabner. I used to think it was my own fault for not teaching him to be less of a pill.
The other kid is 180 degrees in the oppposite direction, and I am now certain it has nothing to do with my parenting. The kids are just hard wired differently.

I have a brother who has lectured me about getting my "hyper" kid to behave and for the most part he falls into the 'whip their butts' category. And I've watched him interact with my boy on several occasions as he has belittled him, insulted him, and put him in his place by shaming him in front of others. He thinks that's the way the kids needs to be dealt with, that it's just a matter of being firm, of never wavering and of teaching the kid how to behave.

What he doesn't get is that it's just not the right formula for this kid. We've gone that route and the result was pretty unsettling; the kid just got the feeling that he was always messing up. He started telling us that "everything he did was wrong", and he'd get distraught thinking that that we didn't like him. Unfortunately, this four year old was not getting the message and it became clear to us that for some reason he was not able to get it the way his younger sister was. Lastly, thinking about it from the parents' perspective, when your kid doesn't respond to all the "no's" and getting put in his room and losing his TV, and all the other stuff, you start to realize that being firm doesn't matter to some kids. And no, I'll not whip him. Sorry tough guys, but for those of you who think that's right, you ought to think of what hitting a four year old means- it becomes a physical thing between you and the kid and has less to do with teaching them how to be a good adult. After all, are adults expected to hit their coworkers when they don't do a good job?

Anyway, just my own little tidbit, there. My kid isn't labeled adhd yet, and I live in fear that the school is going to send him home and tell me to put him some drug. And I am sorry folks, but I have the right to take him to any damned restaurant I please. It's an hour out of your precious life-it's not like I brought him into a theater and let him run up and down the aisles.

Ltlabner
01-12-2007, 07:33 AM
If all you ever do is bark orders at your kid, you're going to end up with an adolescent or grownup who only knows how to bark orders back at the rest of society.

I didn't say "bark orders" I just pointed out that I see far too many parents meakly asking their children to pleeease stop doing this or that. Meanwhile the kid, who obviously has zero respect for the parent, continues to be a holy terror.


The kids are just hard wired differently.

I have a brother who has lectured me about getting my "hyper" kid to behave and for the most part he falls into the 'whip their butts' category. And I've watched him interact with my boy on several occasions as he has belittled him, insulted him, and put him in his place by shaming him in front of others. He thinks that's the way the kids needs to be dealt with, that it's just a matter of being firm, of never wavering and of teaching the kid how to behave.

There's a world of difference between being firm and belittling, insulting and putting kids "in their place". There is nothing that says you can't shower your kids with love while at the same time clearly establishing who is in control and who isn't.


What he doesn't get is that it's just not the right formula for this kid. We've gone that route and the result was pretty unsettling; the kid just got the feeling that he was always messing up. He started telling us that "everything he did was wrong", and he'd get distraught thinking that that we didn't like him.

Kids are wonderful manipulators aren't they?

But you raise a good point. Every child is different and will respond to different parenting styles. I agree 100%. But that has nothing to do being the parent and not letting the child control the situation (I'm talking in general, not specifically you). I see far too many parents where you can tell within 30 seconds that the 5 year old rules the home. That's sad.


And I am sorry folks, but I have the right to take him to any damned restaurant I please. You certinally have the right, but you also have the responibility to contol your kid. I'm tired of having my dinners with my family destroyed because some other parent lets their kids yell, scream, bang plates, throw things, climb all over the booths, run around the resturant. Kids should be welcome in most any resturant but they should conform to the adult rules, we shouldn't have to conform to theirs.

Roy Tucker
01-12-2007, 07:45 AM
I didn't say "bark orders" I just pointed out that I see far too many parents meakly asking their children to pleeease stop doing this or that. Meanwhile the kid, who obviously has zero respect for the parent, continues to be a holy terror.


The way I was raised, I was asked to do something, not told. However, all expectations were that I really didn't have any choice in the matter. It might have been phrased as a question, but it was really an order. Probably just a little social grease.

So I say things like "Jen, would you set the table please?", "Zach, would you pour the milk?", etc etc.

But if they don't don't do it, first they get the skunk eye and then the question gets restated as an order.

And I always say please, thank you, and you're welcome to my kids. As much as I'd like them to be, they aren't my slaves.

Ltlabner
01-12-2007, 08:08 AM
The way I was raised, I was asked to do something, not told. However, all expectations were that I really didn't have any choice in the matter. It might have been phrased as a question, but it was really an order. Probably just a little social grease.

This is probably a better way of saying what I was trying to express. My issue isn't with the word please. My issue is with parents who can't seem to establish with their children who is in charge and who isn't. There's a world of difference between the "Laci go get your brother for dinner please" that you describe and "Jasimine pleeeeeeease stop throwing your peas" that I often see hapless parents meekly uttering to their children.

SunDeck
01-12-2007, 08:14 AM
Kids are wonderful manipulators aren't they?



Sure, my five year old comes home from school with tears in his eyes. He peed his pants at recess that day (something he hasn't done since he was three), he asks us why he can't fit in, he tells us he thinks he's a bad kid. Clearly, he was distraught that all his trying couldn't keep him from spinning out of control every once in a while.

What a manipulative little brat.

Look, I know your'e not talking about my kid, but I get tired of having people tell me that all I have to do is make some adjustments. As I said, we've done that and "firm" is not something that gets processed the same by all kids. And unfortunately, there's not a practice restaurant out there that we can take him to. We generally don't go to places that are supposed to be more formal or quiet, and we do try to keep the kid in his place and quiet. But we have the right to try to raise the kid and sometimes that is going to rub up against other people's perception of what childrearing looks like.

Sorry. We're doing our best.

Team Clark
01-12-2007, 08:16 AM
:eek:

Was it pronounced like you'd assume? Or was it pronounced differently?

Supposedly no two are alike...:laugh: :laugh:

Ltlabner
01-12-2007, 08:26 AM
Look, I know your'e not talking about my kid, but I get tired of having people tell me that all I have to do is make some adjustments. As I said, we've done that and "firm" is not something that gets processed the same by all kids. And unfortunately, there's not a practice restaurant out there that we can take him to. We generally don't go to places that are supposed to be more formal or quiet, and we do try to keep the kid in his place and quiet. But we have the right to try to raise the kid and sometimes that is going to rub up against other people's perception of what childrearing looks like.

Sorry. We're doing our best.

Hey man, clearly you have some real issues going on with your son. I'm sorry to hear that as I'm sure it's exaspertating to you and Mrs. Sundeck. Sometimes kids face issues that are beyond the normal day to day type issues that my original post dealt with. Hopefully you'll be able to find that parenting style that helps him to feal both loved and disciplined at the same time.

I think it's great that you avoid the formal quiet resturants. That's the heart of what I was getting at. Why put kids in situations where they are destined to fail? I wonder about parents who take their 4 to 10 year old kids to even casual resturants at 9:00pm at night, for example. Then they are shocked when the kids are cranky, tired and generally fussy.

Roy Tucker
01-12-2007, 08:33 AM
You certinally have the right, but you also have the responibility to contol your kid. I'm tired of having my dinners with my family destroyed because some other parent lets their kids yell, scream, bang plates, throw things, climb all over the booths, run around the resturant. Kids should be welcome in most any resturant but they should conform to the adult rules, we shouldn't have to conform to theirs.


I was going to ask you about this. Does this happen very often to you very often? Because for us, by and large, parents do a pretty decent job of controlling their kids appropriately for the restaurant.

Of course, it depends on the restaurant. If we're at a McDonalds or other fast food place, I'm going to expect a certain amout of kid jubilation and running around. Those places are always loud. If we're at an Applebee's or Friday's, I don't mind if a child gets a little excited about their balloon or gets exuberant, but no running around or screaming. And if we're at a restaurant aimed at adult eating, well then, I expect them in their seat and fairly quietly eating. At place like that, children should be seen and not heard.

And for the places we go to, parents do a pretty good job. Sure, every so often you get some idiots who let their kids swing from the rafters, but that is fairly rare. And Roy is not above using the aforementioned skunk eye only this time focusing it on the rabble.

Heck, people on cell phones in restaurants bug me more than kids do.

Team Clark
01-12-2007, 08:40 AM
Parenting is and has been the most rewarding experience of my life. My daughter, who is now 5 1/2, listens very well. I've used the countdown a few times but she never makes it past 2. She's one of the more respectful kids that I have ever observed. She's smart and well liked in school, etc, etc... I was raised pretty firm but equally loved. I can agree with a lot of what has been said so far. I do see a lot of children who are clearly in charge of their parents. Kinda sad really.

The real challenge and skill is knowing what works for your kid. I rarely have to "command" my daughter to do anything. Suprisingly she is VERY responsible and already has done or is doing the things I would or have asked. "Already done, Dad" is a common theme from her. My Daguhter, in many circumstances "chooses" to not do something bad. I've watched her with other kids who tried to get her to throw rocks, kick things, curse, etc... she flat out refuses. That is astonishing in my book. Funny thing is she doesn't "cower" to these kids. She tells them its bad and that's why she will not do it. I'm not sure what I did to get her to this point but whatever "it" is I am going to try to keep it up.

KittyDuran
01-12-2007, 08:41 AM
And I am sorry folks, but I have the right to take him to any damned restaurant I please.Boy, will you get into a MAJOR "discussion" with my parents - one of their pet peeves! I was 6 years old when I went to my first restaurant and clearly remembering stopping at my grandparent's and having them keep my little sister (3 years old). My parents are a little more lenient (sp?) now (since it happens at nearly every restaurant they go to) but they still complain about it.

creek14
01-12-2007, 09:07 AM
You go SunDeck!! Jello goes fits into molds, not kids.

dabvu2498
01-12-2007, 09:22 AM
Heck, people on cell phones in restaurants bug me more than kids do.

Word. Not only in restaurants, but darn near everywhere else on the planet also.

SunDeck
01-12-2007, 09:43 AM
I think it's great that you avoid the formal quiet resturants. That's the heart of what I was getting at. Why put kids in situations where they are destined to fail? I wonder about parents who take their 4 to 10 year old kids to even casual resturants at 9:00pm at night, for example. Then they are shocked when the kids are cranky, tired and generally fussy.

Agreed 100&#37;. That's exactly the conclusion that I came to with my boy. His little sister does better than he does in situations that require them to adhere to adult rules of behavior and decorum.

On the other hand, at her age he could draw a train, a car, a house, a ship, you name it, complete with the appropriate scale and perspective. She draws circles with six dots on them and calls them "Daddy".

And this is the point that I wanted to make earlier- it's hard wiring that parents have to figure out. We do the best we can to put both our kids in situations that will work for them, but we have to put them into situations that we know will be difficult, too. Otherwise, they can't learn what "normal" expectations are. That's when we get the nods of dissapproval from busy bodies and know-it-alls who don't see the 99.8% of the rest of this kid's life, and who think the only thing we need to do is to give them a slap, or just "be firm". Trust me, if that's all it took we'd be there and so would a lot of parents.

Yachtzee
01-12-2007, 10:15 AM
Agreed 100%. That's exactly the conclusion that I came to with my boy. His little sister does better than he does in situations that require them to adhere to adult rules of behavior and decorum.

On the other hand, at her age he could draw a train, a car, a house, a ship, you name it, complete with the appropriate scale and perspective. She draws circles with six dots on them and calls them "Daddy".

And this is the point that I wanted to make earlier- it's hard wiring that parents have to figure out. We do the best we can to put both our kids in situations that will work for them, but we have to put them into them in situations that we know will be difficult, too. Otherwise, they can't learn what "normal" expectations are. That's when we get the nods of dissapproval from busy bodies and know-it-alls who don't see the 99.8% of the rest of this kid's life, and who think the only thing we need to do is to give them a slap, or just "be firm". Trust me, if that's all it took we'd be there and so would a lot of parents.

Yep, before you become a parent, you have all these preconceived notions about how to properly raise a child. Then you have one yourself and all of those notions go right out the window. My oldest son is 4 and my youngest is 5 months. Even at this early age I can tell that raising #2 is going to be different than #1.

I generally don't get upset when other parents have unruly kids when it appears they are actually engaging their children and making an effort to find out what's going on and modify the bad behavior and encourage the good. So I applaud parents who say "Josephus, please" or "Millicent, please," even if it has little effect.

I just have two pet peeves. The first is that I just can't abide by what I call "free-range day care." If you bring your child out, you should be responsible for keeping an eye on them and making sure they have something to occupy/entertain them while you are out, even if it has to be you yourself. I hate seeing kids running around because they are bored while their parents seem too wrapped up in their own conversations to notice that the waitress almost tripped over their kid and dumped a bowl of hot soup on their head. Also, if you are out with a group of people, those people should not be expected to keep an eye on your kid for you.

My other pet peeve, if it comes to the point where you have to discipline your child, please wait until you get home. There is nothing more uncomfortable that watching some harried parent go off on their kid in the middle of the grocery store.

M2
01-12-2007, 10:27 AM
You go SunDeck!! Jello goes fits into molds, not kids.

I'll give that an amen.

I've got two nice, respectful, well-behaved kids and no use for pop parenting prescriptions. We use the three counts and it works. If I ever have to resort to hitting one of them, I'll consider it a complete failure on my part. By the way, their names are Otis and Romy. Having grown up with the most popular name in my generation, I got a little more than sick and tired of paying no attention to when I heard my name called out because it could have been any one of a dozen other guys near me. There's more than a handful of names in the world and no harm in using them.

I'll tell you what I don't see with my kids and their friends (many of whom lack standardized names too):

They don't seek conformity and ostracize anyone who doesn't maintain lockstep with the herd.

They don't get into fights. Seriously, my son's in third grade and pretty much every kid in his class hasn't been in a fight. When I was that age, it was a brawl a month minimum. Some may bemoan that. I think it's kind of nice that their natural reaction to the slightest bit of conflict isn't to throw a fist.

They don't cuss like truck drivers. I did in the first grade. Most of the kids I knew did as well. I'm not saying kids today are angels, but they aren't trying to act like they're 40 either.

They learn more in school and seem to have a better time doing it. Thinking back on my education it often seems like the main goal of my teachers was to make us sit in a desk chair for the longest possible amount of time. They'd throw ditto paper at you and make you do the same mind-numbing tasks all day long for months on end, even long after you had the skills in question down pat.

Yeah, there's some out of control, unpleasant, over-coddled kids out there. There's also a lot of nice ones.

RANDY IN INDY
01-12-2007, 10:29 AM
You certinally have the right, but you also have the responibility to contol your kid. I'm tired of having my dinners with my family destroyed because some other parent lets their kids yell, scream, bang plates, throw things, climb all over the booths, run around the resturant. Kids should be welcome in most any resturant but they should conform to the adult rules, we shouldn't have to conform to theirs.

Amen to that. I am astonished at how many parents let their kids run all around a "sit down" restaurant. I was never allowed to do that, and neither is my son. It seems to happen nearly every time we go out. Not running to the bathroom, mind you, but chasing around the tables, rolling on the floor and even coming up to your booth or table and staring at you while you are eating. I'm sorry, folks but I don't think your kids are cute when they do that kind of thing. It is very irresponsible on the part of the parents. My son, who is 9, just rolls his eyes every time it happens. We sometimes think we are part of some sick curse, it happens so often.

Don't get me wrong, I love kids. I have coached them from ages 6-20. I'm currently working with my son's age group, and I am pretty strict in the way I coach. I meet with the parents before the first practice and tell them my coaching style and expectations, and ask if there are any questions. I ask that one parent be present for the first few practices. There are no surprises. Practices are very fast moving and outlined, we have lots of fun, but we show lots of respect. It's a rule, and I don't have many. I basically tell the boys that I expect them to respect everyone on the field, that adults are to be addressed as "Coach, Sir, or Maam, and to treat others as you would want to be treated. I've had a couple of parents ask me how I get their kids to behave for me, and I simply tell them that I let them know where I stand right off the bat and I am very consistent. It's been my experience that kids really do want discipline, and most actually thrive on it. If you are consistent and can offer them something that they really want to learn or are interested in, they will respond. There is always going to be a bad apple or two, and in those instances, I give the child two warnings and the third is a talk with their parents, telling them I am not there to be a baby sitter and that their child's actions are causing the other kids on the team to be shortchanged. It usually is resolved at that point.

No doubt, all kids are different, but I don't think folks can just throw up their hands and use it as an excuse for bad behavior and let the behavior continue.. That is the biggest disservice that a kid can ever be shown. As forgiving as parents can be with their children, the outside world is a completely different story.

NJReds
01-12-2007, 10:48 AM
Heck, people on cell phones in restaurants bug me more than kids do.

And smokers...although that's not much of an issue anymore.

But I'd rather eat a sit-down dinner at a day care center then at a place filled with smokers.

15fan
01-12-2007, 10:57 AM
My other pet peeve, if it comes to the point where you have to discipline your child, please wait until you get home. There is nothing more uncomfortable that watching some harried parent go off on their kid in the middle of the grocery store.

To play devil's advocate here, I think this depends a lot on the age of the child, as well as the number of kids you're in charge of at the time.

If I'm in the store & my 3 year old is completely out of control, the time to deal with it is right then & there. Dropping what you are doing, leaving the store, putting the kid in the car, driving home, walking in the front door, and then disciplining the kid is too long of a time frame. At that point, the kid has gone through too many other highs and lows and had too many other thoughts come & go. If you're lucky, the kid's mania has run it's course and he or she is calmed down from whatever it was that was the source of the angst.

Similarly, my dad traveled a lot when I was a kid, so my mom spent a lot of time running errands with me and my two younger sisters (15 months and 4 years) in tow. If one of us started acting up when the 4 of us were out, she had to nip it in the bud right then & there. Otherwise the other 2 would have joined in the act & it would have turned into complete chaos in the blink of an eye.

If you have a 7 or 8 year old, then I think it's a little different. Those kids have a much better understanding of the space-time continuum. You can let them know that it's big trouble when you get 'em home, and administer discipline in a much more discreet and appropriate manner.

Finally, the next time you see a harried parent go off on his/her kid and feel uncomfortable, keep in mind that the parent likely feels even more uncomfortable than you do.

RANDY IN INDY
01-12-2007, 10:57 AM
And smokers...although that's not much of an issue anymore.

But I'd rather eat a sit-down dinner at a day care center then at a place filled with smokers.

Shouldn't have to choose.

RANDY IN INDY
01-12-2007, 11:01 AM
To play devil's advocate here, I think this depends a lot on the age of the child, as well as the number of kids you're in charge of at the time.

If I'm in the store & my 3 year old is completely out of control, the time to deal with it is right then & there. Dropping what you are doing, leaving the store, putting the kid in the car, driving home, walking in the front door, and then disciplining the kid is too long of a time frame. At that point, the kid has gone through too many other highs and lows and had too many other thoughts come & go. If you're lucky, the kid's mania has run it's course and he or she is calmed down from whatever it was that was the source of the angst.

Similarly, my dad traveled a lot when I was a kid, so my mom spent a lot of time running errands with me and my two younger sisters (15 months and 4 years) in tow. If one of us started acting up when the 4 of us were out, she had to nip it in the bud right then & there. Otherwise the other 2 would have joined in the act & it would have turned into complete chaos in the blink of an eye.

If you have a 7 or 8 year old, then I think it's a little different. Those kids have a much better understanding of the space-time continuum. You can let them know that it's big trouble when you get 'em home, and administer discipline in a much more discreet and appropriate manner.

Finally, the next time you see a harried parent go off on his/her kid and feel uncomfortable, keep in mind that the parent likely feels even more uncomfortable than you do.

I remember my mom grabbing my arm and quietly saying, "Son, you and I are going to have words when we get home." I knew what that meant, the bad behavior stopped, and my reward, that was waiting at home would not be at all, pleasant.

paintmered
01-12-2007, 11:06 AM
I say pump them full of sugar and caffeine then let them have at it. :devil:

Roy Tucker
01-12-2007, 11:11 AM
To play devil's advocate here, I think this depends a lot on the age of the child, as well as the number of kids you're in charge of at the time.

If I'm in the store & my 3 year old is completely out of control, the time to deal with it is right then & there. Dropping what you are doing, leaving the store, putting the kid in the car, driving home, walking in the front door, and then disciplining the kid is too long of a time frame. At that point, the kid has gone through too many other highs and lows and had too many other thoughts come & go. If you're lucky, the kid's mania has run it's course and he or she is calmed down from whatever it was that was the source of the angst.

Similarly, my dad traveled a lot when I was a kid, so my mom spent a lot of time running errands with me and my two younger sisters (15 months and 4 years) in tow. If one of us started acting up when the 4 of us were out, she had to nip it in the bud right then & there. Otherwise the other 2 would have joined in the act & it would have turned into complete chaos in the blink of an eye.

If you have a 7 or 8 year old, then I think it's a little different. Those kids have a much better understanding of the space-time continuum. You can let them know that it's big trouble when you get 'em home, and administer discipline in a much more discreet and appropriate manner.

Finally, the next time you see a harried parent go off on his/her kid and feel uncomfortable, keep in mind that the parent likely feels even more uncomfortable than you do.


I agree with the sliding scale of age and immediacy in disciplining a child. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. But I also tried to be as discrete as I could.

If my 3 yr. was getting completely out of control in front of the mac and cheese with people all around at the grocery store, I'd find the nearest unused aisle or little alcove with a modicum of privacy and set them straight.

I didn't want to discipline them directly in front of others but it did need to get taken care of quickly or else the moment was lost.

Actually, when they got a little older, the line "do you want me to yell at you in front of all these people and embarass you or are you going to settle down?" worked pretty well.

Nowadays, my line is "children, quit acting like children". Makes the point, gets a good laugh, and diffuses the situation.

Johnny Footstool
01-12-2007, 11:12 AM
Remember the 80's movie "Splash"? Tom Hanks asks mermaid Darryl Hannah her name, and she says she doesn't have one. He asks her to pick one, and she sees a street sign for Madison avenue and says "That's it! Madison!" He laughs and says that it's not a first name, it's a last name. She starts to cry, and he shakes his head, rolls his eyes and says, "All right. Your name is Madison," as if it's the dumbest thing ever.

Now I know about 6 couples who named their daughters "Madison."

SunDeck
01-12-2007, 11:22 AM
You don't see a lot of kids named Hortense or Zebulon any more. Are we sad about that, too?
There should just be a rule- don't name your kid something they have to keep spelling. I have that and it sucks. "Is that with a "ph" or a "v"? Over and over and over.
Until I die.
Or change to my middle name....which I am sure will piss someone off here, too. :)

westofyou
01-12-2007, 11:23 AM
Or change to my middle name....which I am sure will piss someone off here, too.

I did that years ago. Dropped #1 and moved on.

KittyDuran
01-12-2007, 11:55 AM
I did that years ago. Dropped #1 and moved on.I don't have a middle name to drop...:( and neither do my sisters. [My Dad goes by his middle name of Marvin - his first name is James.]

Falls City Beer
01-12-2007, 11:57 AM
I'll add this as a postscript to the "letter":

Now that you've heard the "rules," be prepared to break them all. There's no unified field for raising children.

Roy Tucker
01-12-2007, 11:57 AM
I did that years ago. Dropped #1 and moved on.

And what was so bad about #1?

:p:

westofyou
01-12-2007, 12:06 PM
I would have agreed with the "hyper" part of the rant until I had two kids. One of mine is probably in the "hyper" category- he's high strung, very emotional, extremely energetic, has a pretty short attention span and is probably the kind of kid that is annoying Ltlabner. I used to think it was my own fault for not teaching him to be less of a pill.

I have ADD, as a kid rumor has it I was trouble, big trouble... had teachers ask my mother what happened during her pregnancy, etc... all my school years. Pretty brutal questions for the era, very fraught with accusations.

My mom has this one story about an epiphany she had regarding my behavior one day, we were at a train station and I was being what she termed a "handful" it was me and my older sister and my mom said she was having a bad day. Anyway I act up and she grabs my arm and jerks me towards her after I did something. An older, graying man was standing next to her and she apologized to him for my actions (or constant action) he looked at her and said. "Lady, give him a break. You don't want to ruin his personality."

She said right then she realized that I was going to be who I was no matter how hard she tried to change it, and that enabled her to go with the flow more and quit fighting it. That's when she could realize how to work with me and my sister on different levels, because we were different people.

I don't have kids, but I sure don't try to make them fit into my idea of what a kid should be.

westofyou
01-12-2007, 12:06 PM
And what was so bad about #1?

:p:Dads name too.

vaticanplum
01-12-2007, 12:16 PM
I have ADD, as a kid rumor has it I was trouble, big trouble... had teachers ask my mother what happened during her pregnancy, etc... all my school years. Pretty brutal questions for the era, very fraught with accusations.

:eek: That is terrible.

on the flip side of the coin, I have little doubt that if I were a kid today there'd be pushes to put me on ritalin, and it's safe to say now that I don't have ADD -- no trouble concentrating or that kind of thing. I just had excessive amounts of energy as a kid and I still do. I got bored very easily in a classroom and I could very well see teachers getting exasperated enough with me to want me on drugs; I was one of maybe 20 kids in a class but caused way more than 1/20 disturbance. Can't blame them in a sense, but I didn't have a disorder.

It must be superfreaking hard to be a parent, that's all I've got to say.

IslandRed
01-12-2007, 12:18 PM
Dads name too.

Same here, I'm a "Jr." My parents called me by my middle name all along. So has everyone else, except for a brief time where my grade-school classmates called me by my first name because we'd just moved to a new city and, standing in the doorway waiting to go into my new class, I tugged Mom's shirt and told her I wanted it that way. That wore off, and a couple of years and another move later, it was back to the middle name.

One unforeseen advantage of going by the middle name is the natural filtering. Everyone in the world who doesn't know me personally -- I'm thinking telephone solicitors, primarily -- will use the first name.

westofyou
01-12-2007, 12:24 PM
called me by my first name because we'd just moved to a new city and, standing in the doorway waiting to go into my new class, I tugged Mom's shirt and told her I wanted it that way. That wore off, and a couple of years and another move later, it was back to the middle name.

Yep, been there, moved 7 times from Kindergarten to 8th grade, had to correct the teacher every time.

SunDeck
01-12-2007, 12:42 PM
An older, graying man was standing next to her and she apologized to him for my actions (or constant action) he looked at her and said. "Lady, give him a break. You don't want to ruin his personality."

She said right then she realized that I was going to be who I was no matter how hard she tried to change it, and that enabled her to go with the flow more and quit fighting it. That's when she could realize how to work with me and my sister on different levels, because we were different people.


That's about where we are with our boy. The tougher we got, the more difficult it became for him, to the point where I was concerned he would just come to the conclusion that he was the bad kid in class. In fact, I have seen some of that- open defiance to his teachers, slamming doors in class, things he wouldn't dream of doing at home because there are direct consequences.
The teachers at school won't use the clinical terms, and in some ways it makes it even more challenging. They say things like, "he's just got to learn strategies" whatever that means, but generally I am of the opinion that behavior problems are often thought of as though they are disorders, so that they can convince themselves that the problem can be dealt with according to some prescribed plan. Or drug.

At this point, we are a little confused by the school and I have even told the teacher that if my kid is acting like a pill, then treat him accordingly. Sit him in a corner, or whatever it is they do now and let me know so I can follow up on it. But I get the impression they are also gun shy of parents who will get down their throats at the mere mention that their little angel is a class disruption.

Roy Tucker
01-12-2007, 12:52 PM
It must be superfreaking hard to be a parent, that's all I've got to say.

Yeah, it's enormously challenging but also enormously rewarding.

The problem is, it's a learn-as-you-go job. I'm in the teenage years now (my kids are 18, 16, and 13) which calls upon a whole different skill set from earlier ages. I can do the little-kid thing in my sleep now. The trouble is, my kids aren't little.

You need to have a core morals and value set, an understanding of how to implement it, the awareness to understand that each child is different and adjust on the fly, a sense of boundaries and appropriateness, and the courage and backbone to act on it all.

I liken it to the plate spinner act on the old Ed Sullivan show. He'd have a bunch of poles that he'd spin plates on and it was a constant near-disaster act where he race from plate to plate to re-spin them and keep them going. You job as a parent is to keep as many plates spinning while not letting hem crash to the floor.

TeamMorris
01-12-2007, 01:24 PM
I was going to ask you about this. Does this happen very often to you very often? Because for us, by and large, parents do a pretty decent job of controlling their kids appropriately for the restaurant.

Of course, it depends on the restaurant. If we're at a McDonalds or other fast food place, I'm going to expect a certain amout of kid jubilation and running around. Those places are always loud. If we're at an Applebee's or Friday's, I don't mind if a child gets a little excited about their balloon or gets exuberant, but no running around or screaming. And if we're at a restaurant aimed at adult eating, well then, I expect them in their seat and fairly quietly eating. At place like that, children should be seen and not heard.

And for the places we go to, parents do a pretty good job. Sure, every so often you get some idiots who let their kids swing from the rafters, but that is fairly rare. And Roy is not above using the aforementioned skunk eye only this time focusing it on the rabble.

Heck, people on cell phones in restaurants bug me more than kids do.


I agree. All depends on where you are.

From a server point of view it isn't only annoying to have a child running around but it is VERY dangerous also! I have seen many accidents over the years and some were pretty serious. Of course, it was always the servers fault and not the child.

My son is a very active child also and far from perfect. I avoid all places where he could be a problem for others and my sake. It's not a fun experience for me either if I spend the whole time yelling at him to stop this or that and have to keep telling him to sit down. I have found that places with tv's, music or a lot of action work well for us.

Yachtzee
01-12-2007, 01:31 PM
I agree. All depends on where you are.

From a server point of view it isn't only annoying to have a child running around but it is VERY dangerous also! I have seen many accidents over the years and some were pretty serious. Of course, it was always the servers fault and not the child.

My son is a very active child also and far from perfect. I avoid all places where he could be a problem for others and my sake. It's not a fun experience for me either if I spend the whole time yelling at him to stop this or that and have to keep telling him to sit down. I have found that places with tv's, music or a lot of action work well for us.

I agree. I always cringe when someone's kid starts venturing into the paths of the servers.

When we take my son out, we try to go to a place that has things for kids to do. If we're not going to a place like that, we try to bring books, puzzles and his magna-doodle to keep him occupied when he isn't eating. If he acts up to the point where it's getting to be too much, we take him outside for a "time out" until he calms down. Of course then there's always McDonalds, where we can let him blow of some steam on the playground.

Ltlabner
01-12-2007, 02:53 PM
They don't seek conformity and ostracize anyone who doesn't maintain lockstep with the herd.

Maybe I am not understanding your post but I don't see what expecting parents to be parents and not let the kids rule the roost has anything with conformtiy and imposing "herdism".



I was going to ask you about this.

Yea, I see if quite a bit. It's probably because I travel regularly for work so I eat out regularly. I don't think I'm asking too much to keep your kids from distrubing other partrons of the resturant even if it's a McD's. If someone sits next to the play area, yea they shouldn't gripe about the noise. But if I sit at the farthest point away from the play area and your kid comes over and bugs me thats totally different. I paid for my food too, why shouldn't I be able to enjoy it without kids running around, throwing things, trying to introduce themselves to me, making lots of noise, etc?

I was in a Taco Bell yesterday. I don't expect fine dining there at all. Yet this one little girl was talking very loudly (borderline yelling) and the mom just kept talking to her like it was normal. Then she decided the booth was a playpen and started climing all over it. I guess some people just think I'm a Nazi but I guess I have standards and expectations that I'd like my children to aspire to. Not disrupting the lunch of everyone else in the resturant is one of those.

I'm not saying don't talk, I'm saying talk at the appropriate volume level. I'm not saying don't play, I'm saying play in the appropriate locations. I'm not saying don't do anything at all, I'm saying as a parent you owe it to your kid to help them learn the appropriate behavior for the appropriate setting. And if your kid can't handle it (for whatever reason, maybe a medical condition) don't put your kids in a situation where they will fail and drive all the other patrons bonkers.


"Lady, give him a break. You don't want to ruin his personality." .

I'm not talking about crushing their spirit, expecting them to never make a peep, and locking them up in shackles, etc. But a resturant, train station, library, place of business is not the appropriate place for them to explore their personality and express their creative being to the detriment of other patrons.

Watching kids play, truely play, with wild abandon and enjoying themselves at whatever interests them is a beautiful thing. All I'm saying is that some parents to a poor job of actually allowing their kids to play in the right environments (over protective, don't allow contact, avoid competition) but then let their kids play in totally wrong environments.

Ltlabner
01-12-2007, 02:57 PM
You don't see a lot of kids named Hortense or Zebulon any more. Are we sad about that, too?
There should just be a rule- don't name your kid something they have to keep spelling. I have that and it sucks. "Is that with a "ph" or a "v"? Over and over and over.
Until I die.
Or change to my middle name....which I am sure will piss someone off here, too. :)

Actaully, I've considered going with my middle name only because I don't care for my first.

My only issue with the "trendy" names is that some parents make the kids name about them and not the kid. Who can come up with the cleverist name. They shackel the kid with a rediculas name that they will be stuck with forever. Or they give them a trendy name to fit in with the friends.

Like most of my gripes in the orginal post it's not so much the name they gave the kid, it's the motivation behind it/ or the after effect of the behavior that bugs me.

RANDY IN INDY
01-12-2007, 03:25 PM
Maybe I am not understanding your post but I don't see what expecting parents to be parents and not let the kids rule the roost has anything with conformtiy and imposing "herdism".




Yea, I see if quite a bit. It's probably because I travel regularly for work so I eat out regularly. I don't think I'm asking too much to keep your kids from distrubing other partrons of the resturant even if it's a McD's. If someone sits next to the play area, yea they shouldn't gripe about the noise. But if I sit at the farthest point away from the play area and your kid comes over and bugs me thats totally different. I paid for my food too, why shouldn't I be able to enjoy it without kids running around, throwing things, trying to introduce themselves to me, making lots of noise, etc?

I was in a Taco Bell yesterday. I don't expect fine dining there at all. Yet this one little girl was talking very loudly (borderline yelling) and the mom just kept talking to her like it was normal. Then she decided the booth was a playpen and started climing all over it. I guess some people just think I'm a Nazi but I guess I have standards and expectations that I'd like my children to aspire to. Not disrupting the lunch of everyone else in the resturant is one of those.

I'm not saying don't talk, I'm saying talk at the appropriate volume level. I'm not saying don't play, I'm saying play in the appropriate locations. I'm not saying don't do anything at all, I'm saying as a parent you owe it to your kid to help them learn the appropriate behavior for the appropriate setting. And if your kid can't handle it (for whatever reason, maybe a medical condition) don't put your kids in a situation where they will fail and drive all the other patrons bonkers.



I'm not talking about crushing their spirit, expecting them to never make a peep, and locking them up in shackles, etc. But a resturant, train station, library, place of business is not the appropriate place for them to explore their personality and express their creative being to the detriment of other patrons.

Watching kids play, truely play, with wild abandon and enjoying themselves at whatever interests them is a beautiful thing. All I'm saying is that some parents to a poor job of actually allowing their kids to play in the right environments (over protective, don't allow contact, avoid competition) but then let their kids play in totally wrong environments.

Excellent post!:beerme:

Hoosier Red
01-12-2007, 03:34 PM
most palm pilots have a doodle pad. We used that to keep my 5 year old niece entertained one night at a nice restaurant.

Red Leader
01-12-2007, 03:41 PM
Watching kids play, truely play, with wild abandon and enjoying themselves at whatever interests them is a beautiful thing. All I'm saying is that some parents to a poor job of actually allowing their kids to play in the right environments (over protective, don't allow contact, avoid competition) but then let their kids play in totally wrong environments.

I have two younger children (soon to be 8, and 3). Both are good kids. My youngest will act out in public occasionally, but not very often. My oldest is almost perfectly behaved in public. I expect our youngest son will get there soon, he just has a LOT of energy at this age, so he requires a lot of playtime to get all of his energy out.

Anway, I think a problem I see is that parents don't let their kids have "free play" time in the appropriate places or at the appropriate times. In this day and age with both parents working all day (and the kids in schools, day cares, wherever all day), most parents are generally tired when they pick their kids up. The kids have just spent all day either bottled up at school (if they are school aged) or playing all day (if at daycare). This is the time parents pick to go to restaraunts. The kids are excited to see their parents for the first time since early morning, when most of them weren't even fully awake. The parents expect the kids to sit in the restaraunt and behave. Sit still, stay quiet, etc, etc so the parents can talk about their days and what they have going on. Not good. Kids can't do that. You are basically asking them to switch gears they can't. They've got one gear, full go. Then, because the parents are tired and want to talk to their spouse, they snap at kids that aren't "behaving."

We avoid all of this mess in our house. If we're running late from work and are too tired to cook a meal at home, we get take out during the week. No eating in restaraunts during the week. That way, if the kids act out, they are at home and not bothering anyone. If they act out at the dinner table, we correct them and tell them that isn't play time. Dinner usually doesn't take that long to eat and they are back to playing, getting attention, etc within 15 minutes of being home. We reserve eating at restaraunts for the weekends, if we do at all. That way we can make sure they get the proper play time BEFORE we go out to eat and they know that they are expected to behave in public. They know the restaraunt isn't play time.

This is our way of "not setting them up for failure." Based on a lot of families I see when I pick up food for carry-out, other families should try this method.

Ltlabner
01-12-2007, 03:45 PM
We avoid all of this mess in our house. If we're running late from work and are too tired to cook a meal at home, we get take out during the week. No eating in restaraunts during the week.

This is our way of "not setting them up for failure." Based on a lot of families I see when I pick up food for carry-out, other families should try this method.

:clap:

M2
01-12-2007, 05:02 PM
Maybe I am not understanding your post but I don't see what expecting parents to be parents and not let the kids rule the roost has anything with conformtiy and imposing "herdism".

I think everyone can agree that kids need to exercise the manners appropriate to the setting they're in. Usually it's best to go over those manners before you enter a different setting, so they're clear on what's expected of them. I think the mistake parents sometimes make is assuming a kid is going to know the rules of comportment in a given situation by rote. -- "Don't they see how I'm behaving and why can't they just mimic that?" No, they don't and they aren't you (and by "you" I mean parents who assume their children automatically model the parents' every behavior).

Anyway, I was chiming in on what SunDeck was saying about how cookie cutter parenting doesn't work. The upside is that we don't seem to be raising wannabe cookie cutter kids these days. I think they understand the notion of different strokes better than we do.


Yea, I see if quite a bit. It's probably because I travel regularly for work so I eat out regularly.

I see it very rarely.


I'm not saying don't talk, I'm saying talk at the appropriate volume level. I'm not saying don't play, I'm saying play in the appropriate locations. I'm not saying don't do anything at all, I'm saying as a parent you owe it to your kid to help them learn the appropriate behavior for the appropriate setting. And if your kid can't handle it (for whatever reason, maybe a medical condition) don't put your kids in a situation where they will fail and drive all the other patrons bonkers.

While I agree with that, you also have to have some give on the other side of that spectrum. Last year we went out to restaurant with the kids where my son sat in a booth that shared a backing with the next booth over. He wasn't making noise. He wasn't jumping around. He was, in fact, sitting and eating his food. Occasionally he'd shift his body position. This last act managed to infuriate the woman in the next booth everytime he did it and she'd shoot a dirty look our way. Granted, it was a booth seat that tended to rock when someone moved, but that was going to happen no matter who sat there. We even successfully got him not to swing his feet though they were dangling (which is pretty much a miracle of parenting as it's a basic reaction to swing your feet when they dangle). Even with that, every few minutes, he'd inevitably move and we'd get another dirty look. Nothing you can do in that situation. You've just wound up next to someone looking for an excuse to get haughty.


Watching kids play, truely play, with wild abandon and enjoying themselves at whatever interests them is a beautiful thing.

I agree with that one. My wife, IMO, tends to rein them in too much. She's worried about them. I get that. But I've found they struggle with a lot of physical things that I could do at their age without trouble and I'm convinced it's because they're over-supervised. My kids can't even conceive of climbing to the top of the backstop and seeing who can dangle from the overhang the longest. I was talking to our elementary school gym teacher last week and he was saying that all of the physical testing standards they established 30 years ago need to be updated because modern kids aren't able to meet the requirements.

I also think the over-supervision costs them in the "keep yourself amused" department. I'm assuming most of us, during our youngers days, didn't need a lot of guidance when it came to having fun in a tree-lined field with a group of kids. I've noticed my kids and their friends seem to be waited for something structured to come along in that situation.

vaticanplum
01-12-2007, 05:25 PM
I have two younger children (soon to be 8, and 3). Both are good kids. My youngest will act out in public occasionally, but not very often. My oldest is almost perfectly behaved in public. I expect our youngest son will get there soon, he just has a LOT of energy at this age, so he requires a lot of playtime to get all of his energy out.

Anway, I think a problem I see is that parents don't let their kids have "free play" time in the appropriate places or at the appropriate times. In this day and age with both parents working all day (and the kids in schools, day cares, wherever all day), most parents are generally tired when they pick their kids up. The kids have just spent all day either bottled up at school (if they are school aged) or playing all day (if at daycare). This is the time parents pick to go to restaraunts. The kids are excited to see their parents for the first time since early morning, when most of them weren't even fully awake. The parents expect the kids to sit in the restaraunt and behave. Sit still, stay quiet, etc, etc so the parents can talk about their days and what they have going on. Not good. Kids can't do that. You are basically asking them to switch gears they can't. They've got one gear, full go. Then, because the parents are tired and want to talk to their spouse, they snap at kids that aren't "behaving."

I just had a light bulb go on. I've worked at restaurants in the city and in the suburbs, and the kids at the former were notably better behaved. Apples and oranges, actually; my experience in the suburbs was Ltlabner's (kids acting up being almost the norm), and my experience in the city was M2's (kids acting up being a very rare occurrence -- in fact I can remember exactly one incident in many years, from a very young child).

I always wondered why this was, and I had social theories about it...but maybe it is just the excitability factor. Maybe city kids are just so used to crowds that it doesn't faze them. In a sense, they're ALWAYS out in public -- walking on crowded sidewalks, taking public transportation to school, rather than being in essentially the same worlds every day (home, car, school).

Anyway. Just occurred to me.

M2
01-12-2007, 05:32 PM
I just had a light bulb go on. I've worked at restaurants in the city and in the suburbs, and the kids at the former were notably better behaved. Apples and oranges, actually; my experience in the suburbs was Ltlabner's (kids acting up being almost the norm), and my experience in the city was M2's (kids acting up being a very rare occurrence -- in fact I can remember exactly one incident in many years, from a very young child).

I always wondered why this was, and I had social theories about it...but maybe it is just the excitability factor. Maybe city kids are just so used to crowds that it doesn't faze them. In a sense, they're ALWAYS out in public -- walking on crowded sidewalks, taking public transportation to school, rather than being in essentially the same worlds every day (home, car, school).

Anyway. Just occurred to me.

That's a real interesting theory. You can throw a rock from my front door and have it hit public transportation. Pretty much everywhere I go is in the city and my kids have been city born and bred.

Red Leader
01-12-2007, 05:33 PM
I just had a light bulb go on. I've worked at restaurants in the city and in the suburbs, and the kids at the former were notably better behaved. Apples and oranges, actually; my experience in the suburbs was Ltlabner's (kids acting up being almost the norm), and my experience in the city was M2's (kids acting up being a very rare occurrence -- in fact I can remember exactly one incident in many years, from a very young child).

I always wondered why this was, and I had social theories about it...but maybe it is just the excitability factor. Maybe city kids are just so used to crowds that it doesn't faze them. In a sense, they're ALWAYS out in public -- walking on crowded sidewalks, taking public transportation to school, rather than being in essentially the same worlds every day (home, car, school).

Anyway. Just occurred to me.

You're probably dead on.

My kids are suburban kids. They sleep at home, they wake up, we drive them to school or daycare, one of us picks them up, we go home, we talk / play until 8pm and then they get ready for bed. Rinse and repeat. They aren't exposed to very many public places throughout the week, other than school and daycare. As a result, I shouldn't expect them to know exactly how to behave in a public place like a restaraunt when we go. It's not a very common thing for us to go out to eat. Sure, they get some exposure to the public in malls, sporting events, grocery store, etc, but it's really not the same setting. They can move around in those settings. Asking them to sit still at the end of a day on a weekday is just an insane idea. I feel bad for even trying to do it with our oldest before slapping myself in the forehead and thinking "DUH, this doesn't work," before switching to our current setup.

TeamMorris
01-12-2007, 05:58 PM
Just to let you know...I am really enjoying this thread! I disagree with some stuff but at the same time agree with many. I am learning a thing or two and looking at situations in ways I have not before. Thanks:)

We were all brought up different and will always agree to disagree but that doesn't make the way we raise our kids bad. I am a single mom of a 6 year old and have been very lucky and thankful to have had a lot of help from family and friends over the years. I have always been one very open to advice and take it or leave it. No matter what, in the long run I know how my child behaves and acts is reflected 100&#37; on me and MY parenting skills. As they say, "you are his mother...not so and so".

Being a mom really has not been an easy ride for me and is still a work in progress. I know parenting is not easy for anyone but some are more of a natural than others. Sometimes I have to remind myself and others that he is only 6! He will act up and well...act like a 6 year old! He is a little boy with so much more to learn and everyday is an adventure. My biggest thing is being patient and am working very hard at that. At the same time doing my best to be firm and let him know what I expect out of him and what is right and wrong. I don't want to be one of those parents that people are rolling their eye's at because of the way your child acts in public. Unfortunately it happens to all but unless they know you, your child or situation it is very unfair to point fingers or judge. To make matters worse...I am ashamed to admit this but I use to be one of those people until I had my little guy! Parenting is NOT easy and it took me having a child of my own to really understand.

I want my son to grow up to be a kind, successful, loving and good man. Getting him there will be a lot of hard work but the most important and rewarding job with no pay, Holidays or weekends off that I will ever have and vow to never forget and look very much forward to!

So far at the young age of 6 my son has proven himself at school and home to be a very kind and caring young man when it comes to others. Makes me feel real good knowing I am off to a good start! I, like him still have so much to learn and except that will open arms!

vaticanplum
01-12-2007, 06:05 PM
I'm enjoying this thread too. People who breed fascinate me.

RANDY IN INDY
01-12-2007, 06:07 PM
Just to let you know...I am really enjoying this thread! I disagree with some stuff but at the same time agree with many. I am learning a thing or two and looking at situations in ways I have not before. Thanks:)

We were all brought up different and will always agree to disagree but that doesn't make the way we raise our kids bad. I am a single mom of a 6 year old and have been very lucky and thankful to have had a lot of help from family and friends over the years. I have always been one very open to advice and take it or leave it. No matter what, in the long run I know how my child behaves and acts is reflected 100% on me and MY parenting skills. As they say, "you are his mother...not so and so".

Being a mom really has not been an easy ride for me and is still a work in progress. I know parenting is not easy for anyone but some are more of a natural than others. Sometimes I have to remind myself and others that he is only 6! He will act up and well...act like a 6 year old! He is a little boy with so much more to learn and everyday is an adventure. My biggest thing is being patient and am working very hard at that. At the same time doing my best to be firm and let him know what I expect out of him and what is right and wrong. I don't want to be one of those parents that people are rolling their eye's at because of the way your child acts in public. Unfortunately it happens to all but unless they know you, your child or situation it is very unfair to point fingers or judge. To make matters worse...I am ashamed to admit this but I use to be one of those people until I had my little guy! Parenting is NOT easy and it took me having a child of my own to really understand.

I want my son to grow up to be a kind, successful, loving and good man. Getting him there will be a lot of hard work but the most important and rewarding job with no pay, Holidays or weekends off that I will ever have and vow to never forget and look very much forward to!

So far at the young age of 6 my son has proven himself at school and home to be a very kind and caring young man when it comes to others. Makes me feel real good knowing I am off to a good start! I, like him still have so much to learn and except that will open arms!

You're gonna do just fine!:beerme:

TeamCasey
01-12-2007, 06:31 PM
My other pet peeve, if it comes to the point where you have to discipline your child, please wait until you get home. There is nothing more uncomfortable that watching some harried parent go off on their kid in the middle of the grocery store.


One time I heaved a certain little boy over my shoulder and out of a store like a sack of potatoes. Then I let him sit on the grass out front and have his tantrum before leaving. After that, I made him recite Aunt TC's rules to me before entering any store. I did it repetitively. He's been good ever since, but he has the understanding that I won't take him if he ever behaves like that again. I think we only went through 2 of those episodes.

Part of it is learning each kid's "currency", part of it is the right discipline at the right age, part of it is an absolute quandry to me. :laugh:

And then there's day I have unbelievable patience and some I don't. That's when I feel bad for single parents.

TeamCasey
01-12-2007, 06:47 PM
I'm enjoying this thread too. People who breed fascinate me.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

RANDY IN INDY
01-12-2007, 06:55 PM
I'm enjoying this thread too. People who breed fascinate me.

Maybe you should try it!:evil: ;)

Ltlabner
01-12-2007, 07:10 PM
I don't want to be one of those parents that people are rolling their eye's at because of the way your child acts in public. Unfortunately it happens to all but unless they know you, your child or situation it is very unfair to point fingers or judge. To make matters worse...I am ashamed to admit this but I use to be one of those people until I had my little guy! Parenting is NOT easy and it took me having a child of my own to really understand.

I don't want people to think I just sit around monitoring other people's and look for opportunities to glare at kids that don't measure up to the stadards I set for my own. Like the woman in M2's story.

We've all seen the parents who's kids are having a bad night, but it's obvious the parent generally put a lot of effort into being parents and trying to raise their kids as they see fit. Those kids generally don't bother me one bit. In fact, I often feal sympathetic for the parents because like others have said it's not fun for anybody.

It's usually pretty easy to spot the parents who put a lot of effort into parenting and those who try to take the easy road and would rather ignore their heathen children.

RANDY IN INDY
01-12-2007, 07:17 PM
I see a lot of people putting their kids in every activity that they can. Traditional sports, karate, dancing, scouts, church activities, and the list goes on. Running all over the place all the time, and not really spending any quality time with their kids. A lot of missed opportunities to be a parent, sharpen the skills, and really raise their children. You have to spend the time. You can't expect everyone else to raise your kids.

TeamMorris
01-12-2007, 07:21 PM
You're gonna do just fine!:beerme:

Thank you:beerme:

RANDY IN INDY
01-12-2007, 07:53 PM
"The best thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother."

They notice.

I believe that you have to spend time with your children and make sure they know how very much you love them. I believe you must have realistic expectations for them. I can see in my own son, how very much he wants to please me in all that he does. He never wants to let me or his mother down by his behavior. It isn't a fear of punishment that motivates him, as I have never spanked him. We talk a lot, and always have. The worst thing that he can hear is that I am dissapointed in something he has done. I think he knows just how much I believe in him. I always have asked that he be a "gentleman." That has been a very important word with us from the time he was very small.

More important than that is the responsibility that I have, as a parent, to be the best role model that I can be for him. It is a huge responsibility and one that I take very seriously. Anything less would be to let him down, and I never want him to not believe in his Daddy. I am far from perfect, but nothing has changed my life, and the way I conduct myself, more, than knowing that Matt's eyes are watching everything that I do, and his ears are hearing everything that I say.

"No written word
nor spoken plea
Can teach our youth
what they should be.

Not all the books
on all the shelves.
It's what the teachers
are themselves.

GAC
01-12-2007, 08:03 PM
I'm enjoying this thread too. People who breed fascinate me.

And I'm glad there are some people who aren't breeding. ;)

GAC
01-12-2007, 08:06 PM
I love being a parent. It took my wife and I 7 years to have our first child. We thought we weren't going to be able to have any, and then all of a sudden BAM!... we had 3.

But over the last 17 years the good Lord has used my children and various situations to not only teach them but to teach me as well. ;)

RANDY IN INDY
01-12-2007, 08:44 PM
Amen.

vaticanplum
01-12-2007, 09:02 PM
And I'm glad there are some people who aren't breeding. ;)

Who, me? I'm going to have totally groovy kids. After I have more than 50 dollars in my bank account and maybe an organic houseboy to cook nutritious meals for them.

M2
01-12-2007, 09:20 PM
I see a lot of people putting their kids in every activity that they can. Traditional sports, karate, dancing, scouts, church activities, and the list goes on. Running all over the place all the time, and not really spending any quality time with their kids. A lot of missed opportunities to be a parent, sharpen the skills, and really raise their children. You have to spend the time. You can't expect everyone else to raise your kids.

There certainly is an excess of scheduled activities, isn't there?

IMO, a big part of it is parents who barely have any free time. Somebody really should have thought through how much sense it makes to need two wage earners in a family in order to make ends meet. I swear it's going to bring back polygamy just because it'll be the only sensible way to organize a household.

vaticanplum, the future of home cooking definitely rests on the shoulders of the male of the species. I maintain that you can't expect women who barely eat to prepare a big meal on a regular basis. My great grandmother, who was about as wide as she was tall, now there was a woman who could cook. My wife, who curves in at the waist and then again below the hips, she regards the kitchen like it's an alien landscape.

RANDY IN INDY
01-12-2007, 09:23 PM
There certainly is an excess of scheduled activities, isn't there?


Sure is.

And a lot of parents doing what "they" want to do.

Yachtzee
01-12-2007, 09:26 PM
Who, me? I'm going to have totally groovy kids. After I have more than 50 dollars in my bank account and maybe an organic houseboy to cook nutritious meals for them.

Sorry. My wife got there first. I swear she just married be because I could cook. When I was unemployed for a bit, she would say "Houseboy, fetch me that pitcher," to which I would reply, "As you wish."

15fan
01-12-2007, 09:30 PM
And then there's day I have unbelievable patience and some I don't. That's when I feel bad for single parents.

Amen.

In the last 3 years, I've come to appreciate what it means to be a single parent through friends & acquaintances. It's not uncommon for my wife to make an overnight business trip every couple of weeks. One person taking care of him/herself, a job, a home, AND a kid? Day after day, week after week?

I've decided that when it's time to move to the next realm, single parents get priority seating. Kind of like handicap folks get priority parking spaces.

IslandRed
01-12-2007, 09:38 PM
There certainly is an excess of scheduled activities, isn't there?

For our 6-year-old daughter, my wife and I are in agreement: "Girl Scouts" twice a month (I put it in quotes because, at this age, the meetings are indistinguishable from playdates) and one sport at a time. Far be it for us to push her into activities, we're the ones that have to rein her in. If it were up to her she'd be doing gymnastics, T-ball and soccer all at once.

George Foster
01-12-2007, 09:40 PM
My wife and I have 2 children, 8 and 2 (almost 3). We spank them. They know we will spank them, which means we rarely have too. We have never had a "temper-tantrum" in public...if they are acting up we say, " your about to get it." Bad behavior stops. Some parents spank, some don't. It has been my experience in treating children that most bad behaving children are not spanked. Not always but it does trend that way. I also know some very well behaved children that have never been spanked. To say all spanking is wrong is well....wrong. To say not spanking your children is wrong is just as wrong.

I wish parents would not negotiate with their children. It drives me crazy. For a 7 year old not to allow a hygienist to clean their teeth is unacceptable behavior. My mother would have picked me up and said, "your about to get it".....that would of been enough. She would not have said, " Please open your mouth... please....just this once." Not at my office...it's off to the pediatric dentist!:laugh:

Falls City Beer
01-12-2007, 10:39 PM
IMO, a big part of it is parents who barely have any free time. Somebody really should have thought through how much sense it makes to need two wage earners in a family in order to make ends meet. I swear it's going to bring back polygamy just because it'll be the only sensible way to organize a household.



My kids are eggheads--they entertain and organize themselves--I don't have to plot their lives out for them.

They give us miraculous amounts of free time; and that's with my wife and me working. We are pretty huge workaholics, so we manage it with few hassles. We don't have fabulous social lives, but then neither of us cares all that much about that, to be honest.

VR
01-12-2007, 10:48 PM
I have 4 boys, all of whom are vastly different. It's made be very humble about my parenting abilities, and very sorry for being so smart about parenting before I experienced it.

After the many books read, advice taken, and gut instincting, it all comes back to Randy's advice.

Love them.

I've never met a parent who doesn't love their little ones, but put it in action every day.




Understand they are not going to be Michael Jordan, Ken Griffey and Tom Brady all rolled into one.

Give them some of your undivided attention every day.

Be a great role model.

Listen to them when they talk about their interests, even if they're not the same as yours.

Don't judge other parents.

Be consistent.

Let em know how much you love them and how proud you are of them. Don't ever withhold that for their own good.


That's about all I got.

RANDY IN INDY
01-13-2007, 08:28 AM
A very wise man once told me, "You can't put an old head on young shoulders." He followed that with this, "But as a parent, with a lot of time, and a lot of love, you can nurture it until it fits the shoulders." I understand that now.

M2
01-13-2007, 11:10 AM
It has been my experience in treating children that most bad behaving children are not spanked. Not always but it does trend that way. I also know some very well behaved children that have never been spanked. To say all spanking is wrong is well....wrong. To say not spanking your children is wrong is just as wrong.

Whenever I got spanked as a kid, some other kid in the next day or two got the holy hell beat out of him. Obviously not every kid responds the same way, but I'll hazard a guess that spanking doesn't settle anything with most kids, it just opens the door to something else (could be something active, could be something passive).