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savafan
01-12-2007, 01:08 AM
Okay, all known evidence taken into consideration, who is the worst excuse for a person to have ever played the game?

BoydsOfSummer
01-12-2007, 01:16 AM
Hornsby, by most accounts was a bit of a prick too. I chose Tyrus Raymond Cobb. I read the Al Stump book, he was a fairly miserable son-of-a-gun.

Cyclone792
01-12-2007, 01:22 AM
Rogers Hornsby, Hal Chase, Dick Allen, and Chick Gandil need to be options on this poll.

redsupport
01-12-2007, 01:25 AM
how about Mike Vile, sorry Mike Vale

savafan
01-12-2007, 01:25 AM
Rogers Hornsby, Hal Chase, Dick Allen, and Chick Gandil need to be options on this poll.

Is there a way to edit a poll? :confused:

Cyclone792
01-12-2007, 01:32 AM
Is there a way to edit a poll? :confused:

Don't think so, though I think the mods can edit the poll.

jmcclain19
01-12-2007, 03:58 AM
Cobb went into the stands and attacked a fan. A fan with no hands.

I'd say that makes him a miserable SOB.

RedsBaron
01-12-2007, 05:34 AM
Rogers Hornsby, Hal Chase, Dick Allen, and Chick Gandil need to be options on this poll.

I agree. My vote will probably go to Cobb or Chase, although everyone mentioned sure is deserving.

MrCinatit
01-12-2007, 07:59 AM
Cobb was a horrible, horrible person. Reading his famed autobiography done near the end of his life was literally a nightmarish look into a diseased, disturbed mind.
Yet, despite this, I voted for Cap Anson. Though he was not souly responsible, he was one of those very responsible for turning baseball into a one dimensional game until 1947.

Red Daddy
01-12-2007, 08:00 AM
Where's Peter Edward Rose??? The worst human being ever! :rolleyes:

dabvu2498
01-12-2007, 08:03 AM
Albert Belle's not an option?

Crosley68
01-12-2007, 08:12 AM
Instead of just picking one, How about a Worst Human all-star team?

Keystone12
01-12-2007, 08:19 AM
Dave Kingman

Degenerate39
01-12-2007, 08:24 AM
Where's Peter Edward Rose??? The worst human being ever! :rolleyes:

That wouldn't look to good if Pete was on this poll on this website.

Hubba
01-12-2007, 08:44 AM
Albert Belle's not an option?
This is also my pick. Pete Rose is not an after thought.

redsmetz
01-12-2007, 08:55 AM
Cobb was a horrible, horrible person. Reading his famed autobiography done near the end of his life was literally a nightmarish look into a diseased, disturbed mind.
Yet, despite this, I voted for Cap Anson. Though he was not souly responsible, he was one of those very responsible for turning baseball into a one dimensional game until 1947.

This is precisely the reason I picked Anson too.

oneupper
01-12-2007, 08:56 AM
Sorry Guys, but a little history for us not so knowlegeable.
I know about Anson (racist) Chase (fixed games), Cobb (scum, some say murderer) and some of the others...but

What did Mike Vale or Dave Kingman do? (Chick Gandil?)...

redsmetz
01-12-2007, 09:05 AM
I question Barry Bonds being considered. He's a boorish, selfish lout, but he's not the equal of Cap Anson or Ty Cobb. Cobb was a mean, viscious, hateful person who died a lonely recluse. Anson's bigotry kept a significant number of great ballplayers from playing on the same stage as their white counter-parts and robbed baseball of knowing the extent of the talent of those players.

I know Bonds is an easy target, but he pales in comparison to these two.

John Rocker falls in that same category. He was just a bigoted dope.

MrCinatit
01-12-2007, 09:25 AM
Sorry Guys, but a little history for us not so knowlegeable.
I know about Anson (racist) Chase (fixed games), Cobb (scum, some say murderer) and some of the others...but

What did Mike Vale or Dave Kingman do? (Chick Gandil?)...

Chick was one of the Black Sox, and if I am not mistaken, one of the key members who got the others to go in on the deal.
I will have to look up Vale and Kingman. I am not certain.

westofyou
01-12-2007, 10:09 AM
Rogers Hornsby, Hal Chase, Dick Allen, and Chick Gandil need to be options on this poll.

Dick Allen?

I'd submit Maury Wills and give Allen a pass, IMO.

Hal Chase #1, everyone else pales in comparison

jojo
01-12-2007, 10:17 AM
While this thread is populated with some real stinkers, I'd argue not one player mentioned ever took a bat to a guys head during a game....


I nominate Juan Marichal for consideration...

flyer85
01-12-2007, 10:30 AM
seeing as I don't know them personally ...

bomarl1969
01-12-2007, 10:51 AM
John Rocker wasn't that bad, just a loud mouth. I actually agree and support his speak English campaign, someone needs to speak up for our country...just sorry it had to be him.

George Anderson
01-12-2007, 10:54 AM
John Rocker wasn't that bad, just a loud mouth. I actually agree and support his speak English campaign, someone needs to speak up for our country...just sorry it had to be him.

I agree, while Rocker wasnt very eloquent how he said it, i found very little in what he said that I disagreed with.

vaticanplum
01-12-2007, 10:56 AM
Anson is an interesting case. If he hadn't possessed that pesky hatred, he might have been a decent guy. he was overly proud, as I understand it, but he was a great proponent of the game (the game as HE saw it, anyway), a contributor to the community, a vaudeville star...just an interesting, well-rounded human being in some ways.

Of course, the fact that he was a raging racist and helped incorporate that into baseball pretty much negates all of that. It's unforgivable. But he's an interesting study from a psychological point of view, I guess.

vaticanplum
01-12-2007, 10:59 AM
I agree, while Rocker wasnt very eloquent how he said it, i found very little in what he said that I disagreed with.

"It's the most hectic, nerve-racking city. Imagine having to take the 7 Train to the ballpark, looking like you're riding through Beirut next to some kid with purple hair, next to some queer with AIDS, right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time, right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids. It's depressing."

Yep, not much to argue there.

This is America, after all; we were built on the idea of a homogenous society.

westofyou
01-12-2007, 11:01 AM
"It's the most hectic, nerve-racking city. Imagine having to take the 7 Train to the ballpark, looking like you're riding through Beirut next to some kid with purple hair, next to some queer with AIDS, right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time, right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids. It's depressing."

Yep, not much to argue there.

This is America, after all; we were built on the idea of a homogenous society.

Now that lady is standing up for her country, the one that doesn't scream.. BE LIKE ME JERK!!!!!

Handofdeath
01-12-2007, 11:07 AM
I question Barry Bonds being considered. He's a boorish, selfish lout, but he's not the equal of Cap Anson or Ty Cobb. Cobb was a mean, viscious, hateful person who died a lonely recluse. Anson's bigotry kept a significant number of great ballplayers from playing on the same stage as their white counter-parts and robbed baseball of knowing the extent of the talent of those players.

I know Bonds is an easy target, but he pales in comparison to these two.

John Rocker falls in that same category. He was just a bigoted dope.

Barry Bonds is also mean, viscious, and hateful. He is also a bigot. This is a guy who was asked by his dad to meet before a game with the families of some 9/11 victims and flat out said no. He deserves to be on the list. Ty Cobb is my pick but Bonds deserves to be on the list.

Chip R
01-12-2007, 11:34 AM
Anson is an interesting case. If he hadn't possessed that pesky hatred, he might have been a decent guy. he was overly proud, as I understand it, but he was a great proponent of the game (the game as HE saw it, anyway), a contributor to the community, a vaudeville star...just an interesting, well-rounded human being in some ways.

Of course, the fact that he was a raging racist and helped incorporate that into baseball pretty much negates all of that. It's unforgivable. But he's an interesting study from a psychological point of view, I guess.

I was going to say simething similar about Anson. Was he a racist? Absolutely. But was he any more racist than anyone else who played at that time? Probably not. He certainly wasn't the only person who refused to play against blacks but he got a lot of criticism years later because he was the most influential person at that time. If Anson had allowed his team to play an integrated squad would blacks have played in the majors on a regular basis before 1947? Who knows, but I doubt it. And if we villify Anson for not wanting to play against an integrated team, don't we have to villify every owner before 1947 - and some even after that for not integrating their teams? As VP said, other than not wanting to play against blacks, he was a good guy.

redsmetz
01-12-2007, 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by bomarl1969
John Rocker wasn't that bad, just a loud mouth. I actually agree and support his speak English campaign, someone needs to speak up for our country...just sorry it had to be him.
George Anderson wrote:

I agree, while Rocker wasnt very eloquent how he said it, i found very little in what he said that I disagreed with.

I'll respectfully disagree. Rocker was a bigot, ignorant of American history. That doesn't make him the "worst human being" in this category, but he was an idiot plain and simple.

westofyou
01-12-2007, 11:45 AM
and some even after that for not integrating their teams?
ESPN Darlings the Boston Red Sox say hello.

RichRed
01-12-2007, 11:45 AM
I'd submit Maury Wills and give Allen a pass, IMO.


I confess my ignorance as to what warrants Maury Wills being included. A little insight?

vaticanplum
01-12-2007, 11:48 AM
I was going to say simething similar about Anson. Was he a racist? Absolutely. But was he any more racist than anyone else who played at that time? Probably not. He certainly wasn't the only person who refused to play against blacks but he got a lot of criticism years later because he was the most influential person at that time. If Anson had allowed his team to play an integrated squad would blacks have played in the majors on a regular basis before 1947? Who knows, but I doubt it. And if we villify Anson for not wanting to play against an integrated team, don't we have to villify every owner before 1947 - and some even after that for not integrating their teams? As VP said, other than not wanting to play against blacks, he was a good guy.

I think it's right to hold Anson more responsible than many owners because a) he was so vocal and vehement about it, and b) because he wielded more power than a lot of others. But point b is really where it gets cloudy; one could argue that the National League as such wouldn't have come to exist without Anson, right? So in that sense he was good.

I'm not excusing his racism; he could have played a major role in making baseball a better game, much beyond what he did. I do think he needs to be considered differently than someone like John Rocker, for example, given the tenor of their respective times. And I don't even know if Anson was a "good" guy, but he certainly was an interesting one, and not without his contributions to the game and his community.

Falls City Beer
01-12-2007, 11:48 AM
Something tells me that there are more than enough egotistical aholes in MLB to go around. It's just that some squeak more loudly than others.

And I have no interest in meeting any of them. Just shut your traps and play the game, ya rich clods.

gonelong
01-12-2007, 11:59 AM
Pete cheated on his wife, ignored his kids, lied to his fans-friends-teammates, cheapened the game, cheated his bookies, cheated his friends, and the government (taxes).

The man has let down pretty much every human being that he has ever had more than a casual relationship with, though I am sure there are more than a handful of MLB players that have done worse.

GL

Hap
01-12-2007, 12:01 PM
Cesar Cedeno is a murderer.

TOBTTReds
01-12-2007, 12:06 PM
ESPN Darlings the Boston Red Sox say hello.

Thomas Yawkee

westofyou
01-12-2007, 12:16 PM
I confess my ignorance as to what warrants Maury Wills being included. A little insight?

Just a big time jerk, waste case at times, fought with teammates etc..

He has an autobiography.

On the run : the never dull and often shocking life of Maury Wills / Maury Wills &

An extremely candid autobiography covers Maury Wills lack of self-esteem as a player, affair with Dorris Day, and his tenure as manager of the Seattle Mariners. The stuff on the Mís is pretty good, it was written after Mauryís troubles.

redsupport
01-12-2007, 12:29 PM
How about Eli Grba, his vowel to consonant ratio was awful

bomarl1969
01-12-2007, 12:38 PM
"It's the most hectic, nerve-racking city. Imagine having to take the 7 Train to the ballpark, looking like you're riding through Beirut next to some kid with purple hair, next to some queer with AIDS, right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time, right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids. It's depressing."

:laugh: oh man I forgot all about that quote! Thanks man, I haven't laughed that hard in days! Funny though, take out the queer with AIDS and it reminds me of going to a certain area community that depresses me every time I go!

Chip R
01-12-2007, 12:52 PM
I think it's right to hold Anson more responsible than many owners because a) he was so vocal and vehement about it, and b) because he wielded more power than a lot of others. But point b is really where it gets cloudy; one could argue that the National League as such wouldn't have come to exist without Anson, right? So in that sense he was good.

I'm not excusing his racism; he could have played a major role in making baseball a better game, much beyond what he did. I do think he needs to be considered differently than someone like John Rocker, for example, given the tenor of their respective times. And I don't even know if Anson was a "good" guy, but he certainly was an interesting one, and not without his contributions to the game and his community.


True, but racism was so virulent at that time it may not have mattered even if Anson had played against the integrated teams. Would all these captains and managers have said, "You know, we're all upside down on this black/white thing. Cap has shown us the way." I'm guessing if Anson hadn't have done it, someone else would have like Comiskey. And that's not necessarily saying Commy was a racist but I'm just using him as an example of an influential player/captain of the time. Look what happened when John McGraw tried to get a black player on his team. And he was as influential as anyone else in his era.

There have been black and integrated teams probably from the formation of the game. I don't recall the Cincinnati Reds Stockings ever scheduling games against integrated teams or black teams for that matter. Does that make Harry Wright a scumbag? Just think what would have happened if they had scheduled a game or two against an integrated or all black team?

I don't excuse his racism either. But I'm saying he was probably no worse than most of the people back then. Even Lincoln supported a plan to send blacks back to Africa. If not wanting to play against blacks was the worse thing about Anson as a person, he's a lot better than Cobb.

And Anson had to be a good guy, VP. Have you ever met someone from Iowa who wasn't? :p:

Cyclone792
01-12-2007, 12:52 PM
Sorry Guys, but a little history for us not so knowlegeable.
I know about Anson (racist) Chase (fixed games), Cobb (scum, some say murderer) and some of the others...but

What did Mike Vale or Dave Kingman do? (Chick Gandil?)...

Chick Gandil was the primary player involved in the Black Sox Scandel, and he pretty much hatched the idea of throwing the World Series. He hung around Sport Sullivan, a noted gambler, for much of his early career. When it became obvious that the White Sox were going to win the AL Pennant in 1919, Gandil contacted Sullivan and proposed throwing the 1919 World Series. Sullivan got the necessary gamblers involved, Gandil the necessary players involved, and well ... we know what happened from there.

As for the poll, I'm going with Hal Chase. Frankly, I don't think any other one player comes close to Chase, IMO.

pedro
01-12-2007, 12:58 PM
If the cat story is true I'm going with Kevin Mitchell.

An urban legend involving Kevin Mitchell holds that during the Mets' championship run in 1986, during an argument with his then live-in girlfriend, Mitchell decapitated her cat. The story first came to light in Dwight Gooden's autobiography Heat. Gooden claimed that an enraged Mitchell held him hostage during the alleged cat incident. Mitchell responded to Gooden's accusations by accusing Gooden of fabricating the stories in an attempt to divert attention away from Gooden's personal problems.

vaticanplum
01-12-2007, 12:59 PM
True, but racism was so virulent at that time it may not have mattered even if Anson had played against the integrated teams. Would all these captains and managers have said, "You know, we're all upside down on this black/white thing. Cap has shown us the way." I'm guessing if Anson hadn't have done it, someone else would have like Comiskey. And that's not necessarily saying Commy was a racist but I'm just using him as an example of an influential player/captain of the time. Look what happened when John McGraw tried to get a black player on his team. And he was as influential as anyone else in his era.

But Cap Anson didn't try, that's my point. he was one of the ones most against it. Would he have been successful if he tried to integrate? Maybe not. Because of people just like him. Harry Wright wasn't in the same situation as Anson either. If he had been and had acted the same way, I'd criticize him the same way. Anson was a person in power, faced with a choice, and he came down very much on what I consider to be the wrong side of that choice.

It's not as if he sat back and went along with the times. He stunted the times. That's the crucial difference to me. He was very, very vocal and hateful about his racism. His time colors his actions, but it does not excuse them. This isn't pre-Civil War we're talking about. He may not have been able to change the course of integration in baseball, we'll never know for sure...but he absolutely PREVENTED it from changing.

westofyou
01-12-2007, 01:00 PM
True, but racism was so virulent at that time it may not have mattered even if Anson had played against the integrated teams.

Yep.

Take the case of Tony Mullane the great Reds pitcher. he pitched for the Toledo team in 1884 and Fleetwood Walker was his catcher, though he loathed pitching to him he did, mostly because Tony was a contract, jumping narcissist who loved money more then anything. Tony though refused to take signs from him and would never throw what Walker called. After getting crossed up once too often Walker told Tony, just throw it, no more signs. I'd rather catch it and not know what it is then you cross me up every pitch."

What did Mullane say about Walker?


"He was the best catcher I ever worked with, but I disliked a Negro and whenever I had to pitch to him I used anything I wanted without looking at his signals."

savafan
01-12-2007, 01:09 PM
I've asked macro to add Chase and Hornsby to the poll. Apparently 6 choices is all we're allowed.

redsupport
01-12-2007, 01:18 PM
denny mcclain was no saint

texasdave
01-12-2007, 01:28 PM
Sean Casey has been known to deliberately cut the "Do Not Remove Under Penalty of Law" tags off mattresses.

westofyou
01-12-2007, 01:40 PM
Marty Bergen was peach

Hey Meat
01-12-2007, 01:43 PM
Where's Peter Edward Rose??? The worst human being ever! :rolleyes:
Pete? Are you kidding me. Are you sure that you are a Reds fan? If so were you alive to watch him play then? I don't know many Reds fans that would say that he was the worst human being ever.

Jpup
01-12-2007, 01:47 PM
Pete? Are you kidding me. Are you sure that you are a Reds fan? If so were you alive to watch him play then? I don't know many Reds fans that would say that he was the worst human being ever.

it's called sarcasm.

westofyou
01-12-2007, 01:50 PM
Pete? Are you kidding me. Are you sure that you are a Reds fan? If so were you alive to watch him play then? I don't know many Reds fans that would say that he was the worst human being ever.

Don't know many who aren't Reds fans still covering for him either though.

Cyclone792
01-12-2007, 02:01 PM
Marty Bergen was peach

Very much so. Marty Bergen capped his life off with suicide by slitting his throat with a razor. Before committing suicide, Marty murdered both his wife and son with an ax.

Chip R
01-12-2007, 02:06 PM
But Cap Anson didn't try, that's my point. he was one of the ones most against it. Would he have been successful if he tried to integrate? Maybe not. Because of people just like him. Harry Wright wasn't in the same situation as Anson either. If he had been and had acted the same way, I'd criticize him the same way. Anson was a person in power, faced with a choice, and he came down very much on what I consider to be the wrong side of that choice.

It's not as if he sat back and went along with the times. He stunted the times. That's the crucial difference to me. He was very, very vocal and hateful about his racism. His time colors his actions, but it does not excuse them. This isn't pre-Civil War we're talking about. He may not have been able to change the course of integration in baseball, we'll never know for sure...but he absolutely PREVENTED it from changing.


I understand. But what I'm saying is that Anson is the one we know about. There may have been others that we either don't know about or who flew under the radar - so to speak. We don't know if when Harry Wright made out the 1869-70 Red Stockings schedule he excluded black or integrated teams from playing the Stockings. It's not like there weren't any teams to play against. He may have even had requests to play integrated/black teams but didn't want to because they were integrated/black. And the thought may have never crossed his mind. But I think we can safely say that Anson wasn't the only prolific person in
baseball to refuse to play against blacks since it wasn't exactly common before Anson made his refusal. IIRC, this was an American Association game that this happened in. The National League wasn't integrated until 1947. Where are the slings and arrows against Al Spalding and William Hulbert?

Anson absolutely made the wrong choice. And he was a bigot. None of his accomplishments can excuse that. You're right, he did prevent integration that day. All I'm saying is that even if he had agreed to play against blacks, nothing may have changed. That day, there could have been an integrated game. The next day, maybe someone else might have refused to play against blacks and that would have set the tone. WOY mentioned the Red Sox not integrating till the late 50s early 60s. Shouldn't Tom Yawkey be included in this poll?

I don't know if Anson was a good guy or a bad guy other than the racism. But I think most of us know someone - perhaps an older relative - who didn't exactly have the best attitudes about race. Does that alone make them horrible people? I don't know. I know my grandfather whom I love dearly hasn't always had an enlightened attitude towards minorities. Many Reds fans love Marge Schott. Need I go into her attitudes?

bucksfan2
01-12-2007, 02:11 PM
I dont know about you guys but I would rather have some of these bad guys, Rose, Bonds, Hornsby, Cobb, on my team than a bunch of chior boys.

vaticanplum
01-12-2007, 02:16 PM
I understand. But what I'm saying is that Anson is the one we know about. There may have been others that we either don't know about or who flew under the radar - so to speak. We don't know if when Harry Wright made out the 1869-70 Red Stockings schedule he excluded black or integrated teams from playing the Stockings. It's not like there weren't any teams to play against. He may have even had requests to play integrated/black teams but didn't want to because they were integrated/black. And the thought may have never crossed his mind. But I think we can safely say that Anson wasn't the only prolific person in
baseball to refuse to play against blacks since it wasn't exactly common before Anson made his refusal. IIRC, this was an American Association game that this happened in. The National League wasn't integrated until 1947. Where are the slings and arrows against Al Spalding and William Hulbert?

Anson absolutely made the wrong choice. And he was a bigot. None of his accomplishments can excuse that. You're right, he did prevent integration that day. All I'm saying is that even if he had agreed to play against blacks, nothing may have changed. That day, there could have been an integrated game. The next day, maybe someone else might have refused to play against blacks and that would have set the tone. WOY mentioned the Red Sox not integrating till the late 50s early 60s. Shouldn't Tom Yawkey be included in this poll?

I don't know if Anson was a good guy or a bad guy other than the racism. But I think most of us know someone - perhaps an older relative - who didn't exactly have the best attitudes about race. Does that alone make them horrible people? I don't know. I know my grandfather whom I love dearly hasn't always had an enlightened attitude towards minorities. Many Reds fans love Marge Schott. Need I go into her attitudes?

Chip, my original point was exactly that Anson was not an all-around bad guy. I am not advocating hating people based on one shortcoming -- there'd be no one left not to hate. I'm addressing Anson's racism and its effects on the sport only.

yes, we know about Anson. That's the basis for my opinion of him. This has nothing to do with anyone else or his attitudes that I may or may not know about. Other bad attitudes don't excuse his. This is quite a crucial distinction in issues such as racism.

I just think it is similar to an expression I love: "You can't build a reputation on what you're going to do."

Your behavior can't be judged on what might have happened had you made another decision, or on what others might have done. It can only be based on the decisions that you did make in the circumstances you were given.

That's just my opinion.

redsupport
01-12-2007, 02:16 PM
marty's brother bill may have been the worst hitter in baseball history

Cyclone792
01-12-2007, 02:19 PM
marty's brother bill may have been the worst hitter in baseball history

And wouldn't you know it, Marty's brother Bill came up with the Reds.

There's something quite fitting about that.

James B.
01-12-2007, 05:38 PM
I think it is hard to vote on a poll like this. That is a question that is impossible for anyone to know. Just think about all of the things that ballplayers have probably done that we have never heard about.

RANDY IN INDY
01-12-2007, 05:53 PM
Worst Human Being To Ever Play MLB? Bonds. Barry Bonds.

RANDY IN INDY
01-12-2007, 05:53 PM
His character keeps on shining through.

savafan
01-12-2007, 06:35 PM
I have to say I voted for Bonds because he's the one guy who has never thought about anyone but himself, and to hell with everyone else.

redsfanmia
01-12-2007, 07:43 PM
Cap Anson was a horrible person and was largely responsible for keeping Black players out of baseball. He was in the Klan and was an awful terrible person.

westofyou
01-12-2007, 07:50 PM
Cap Anson was a horrible person and was largely responsible for keeping Black players out of baseball. He was in the Klan and was an awful terrible person.

Was Anson in the Klan?

It's a pretty good bet that Hornsby, Speaker, Cobb and the Gabby Street were. never heard about Anson in the Klan though.

Rojo
01-12-2007, 07:52 PM
Hal Chase #1, everyone else pales in comparison

Bingo.

vaticanplum
01-12-2007, 08:27 PM
Was Anson in the Klan?

It's a pretty good bet that Hornsby, Speaker, Cobb and the Gabby Street were. never heard about Anson in the Klan though.

I've done extensive research on Anson, both second-hand and his own personal writings. The man was a raging racist, no question, but I've never seen a word referencing Klan membership.

MrCinatit
01-12-2007, 08:29 PM
While he is nowhere near the top of the list, Billy Martin was not teddy bear himself. His autobiography, Number 1, is another dark look into a character

macro
01-12-2007, 10:45 PM
Rogers Hornsby, Hal Chase, Dick Allen, and Chick Gandil need to be options on this poll.

We are limited to six poll choices, so I added Hornsby and Chase, per savafan's request.

sava, sorry it took so long. I haven't been here all day, since we talked this morning.

RedsBaron
01-13-2007, 08:03 AM
Hal Chase #1, everyone else pales in comparison

He got my vote, in a field crowded with deserving candidates.

redsfanmia
01-13-2007, 01:14 PM
Was Anson in the Klan?

It's a pretty good bet that Hornsby, Speaker, Cobb and the Gabby Street were. never heard about Anson in the Klan though.

A book called Baseball Babylon claims that Anson was in the Klan.

Handofdeath
01-13-2007, 02:07 PM
Cap Anson, without a doubt, was a blatant racist. Guess what? So was the majority of White America until the late 60s and early 70s. I think Cap Anson, for all his bigotry, was simply a symbol of the times. and he died in 1922 anyway. I think Commissioner Landis deserves a far worse rep than Anson. He had the opportunity to do something. In fact, unless a player in the Hall played on one of those barn storming teams that occasionally played against Negro Leaguers in exhibitions I would assume most every white player was a racist up until at least the mid to late 60's. We have a dirty, dirty history in America.

savafan
01-13-2007, 02:40 PM
In fact, unless a player in the Hall played on one of those barn storming teams that occasionally played against Negro Leaguers in exhibitions I would assume most every white player was a racist up until at least the mid to late 60's. We have a dirty, dirty history in America.

I don't think it's fair to make such broad assumptions.

Handofdeath
01-13-2007, 02:58 PM
I don't think it's fair to make such broad assumptions.

Probably not, but I would say it would be the vast majority of players.

Tony Cloninger
01-14-2007, 02:31 AM
Tris Speaker was in the Klan....so was Al Simmons.
I see quotes from those times, and like that quote from the Toledo pitcher it amazes me how you can say someone is the best and still hate him that deeply only beacuse he was born black.
A quote from a 1930/40's maybe even 50's football game....cannot remember the year. This RB ran all over this team.....College game.
An opposing player came up to him and said "You may be a N*****, but you are the best damn RB i have ever seen."
Someone want to explain to me what the hell that means?
Did white people just think black people were not human or something?

Joining the Klan was the IT thing to do in the 20's....like joining a Gym.

They actually had a march in Washington ....like a big parade.

Residue of the great racist movie by D. W. Griffith.....a man whose name should be basically stricken from anything to do with motion pictures.

That movie basically made it seem like the Klan were some heroes who helped the poor white people from the clutches of those mean black men.
Never mind that blacks had every right to be severly pissed off for being enslaved and made to work 24/7 just for the previlige of being kept alive.
That guy's movie had more to do with the rebirth of the Klan and some of the worst race violence ever seen ( See the OKlahoma/Tulsa riots when whole black towns were destroyed, basically beacuse they had more material things than the whites )........killing of black soldiers coming back from WW I....beacuse they thought they actually had a right to more freedom for dying for their country.


So.....Cap may have been a "symbol of his times" but he stands out, along with Cobb, as the face of a time that is responsible for something that never seems to go away. I mean what do you think the father's and mother's of those racist from those times taught their kids? Maybe to hide it better?

I realize this is getting to off track.......but just seeing that guy's name makes me think of only 1 thing. First time i ever read about him was about his exploits in the 1880's and beyond. First time i read how evil a person could be for no real sane reason.

westofyou
01-14-2007, 10:07 AM
Joining the Klan was the IT thing to do in the 20's....like joining a Gym.

They actually had a march in Washington ....like a big parade.

They actually were a political party, and the governor of Indiana was a member as well.

http://www.centerforhistory.org/indiana_history_main7.html


There was a time in Indiana when Klan membership could help an aspiring political career. Leonard Moore from the University of California has carefully analyzed Klan membership documents of Indiana and discovered that 250,000 white men in Indiana (about 30% of the native-born Caucasian men in Indiana) joined the Klan in the early 1920s.[1]


Residue of the great racist movie by D. W. Griffith.....a man whose name should be basically stricken from anything to do with motion pictures.

The man practically invented much of the processes involved in film making, taking his name away would be like taking Ruth's name away from baseball. He like Anson and Cobb was a product of the era they were raised in as well.

savafan
01-14-2007, 10:09 AM
I'd be curious to hear from those who think John Rocker is the worst.

cincinnati chili
01-14-2007, 10:25 AM
There was a time in Indiana when Klan membership could help an aspiring political career. Leonard Moore from the University of California has carefully analyzed Klan membership documents of Indiana and discovered that 250,000 white men in Indiana (about 30% of the native-born Caucasian men in Indiana) joined the Klan in the early 1920s.


1920's? Try 1940's in West Virginia.

Robert Byrd, a U.S. Senate Democrat since 1959, was a Klansman in his 20's, and left behind some real doozies for us to ponder years later:

Byrd commented on the 1945 controversy raging over the idea of racially integrating the military. In his book When Jim Crow Met John Bull[3], Graham Smith referred to a letter written that year by Byrd, when he was 28 years old, to segregationist Senator Theodore Bilbo of Mississippi, in which Byrd vowed never to fight:

"with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."[4]

source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd)

In fairness to Byrd, he had a horrible background and childhood, and it's amazing that he managed to pull himself out of his background, revise his views (allegedly), go to college (in his 30s), then law school (in his 40s) and to still be active in politics well into his 80s.

Newman4
01-14-2007, 10:51 AM
1920's? Try 1940's in West Virginia.

Robert Byrd, a U.S. Senate Democrat since 1959, was a Klansman in his 20's, and left behind some real doozies for us to ponder years later:

Byrd commented on the 1945 controversy raging over the idea of racially integrating the military. In his book When Jim Crow Met John Bull[3], Graham Smith referred to a letter written that year by Byrd, when he was 28 years old, to segregationist Senator Theodore Bilbo of Mississippi, in which Byrd vowed never to fight:

"with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."[4]

source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd)

In fairness to Byrd, he had a horrible background and childhood, and it's amazing that he managed to pull himself out of his background, revise his views (allegedly), go to college (in his 30s), then law school (in his 40s) and to still be active in politics well into his 80s.

Byrd just got re-elected and during the campaign GOP opponents actually brought up the KKK involvement in campaign ads.

Tony Cloninger
01-14-2007, 10:54 AM
It is amazing that Byrd has lasted that long......i mean i really have never heard of him until now.

I would think he would have been a footnote by now......and i am not saying people cannot change......but it's almost like David Duke seeing the light.

WOY....i realize what DW did.........but that movie......you would swear it was some Dave Chappelle......comedy lampoon skit....just by the the horrific lampooning of blacks, and the outright lies that it potrayed.

Did DW ever own up to this?

westofyou
01-14-2007, 11:29 AM
It is amazing that Byrd has lasted that long......i mean i really have never heard of him until now.

I would think he would have been a footnote by now......and i am not saying people cannot change......but it's almost like David Duke seeing the light.

WOY....i realize what DW did.........but that movie......you would swear it was some Dave Chappelle......comedy lampoon skit....just by the the horrific lampooning of blacks, and the outright lies that it potrayed.

Did DW ever own up to this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._W._Griffith



Griffith was born in La Grange, Kentucky. His father was Jacob "Roaring Jake" Griffith, a Confederate Army colonel and Civil War hero.

Griffith did also say that he made the film with the intention to show how the Scalawags and Carpetbaggers began to rule as tyrants with President Lincoln out of the picture. Griffith did also try to denounce prejudice in his next film Intolerance by showing how slavery was wrong because the Babylonians tried to make some slaves out of their people who didn't believe in some of the main traditional gods. According to Lillian Gish in her autobiography, The Movies, Mr. Griffith and Me, Griffith towards the end of his life expressed an interest in making a film that would be a tribute to African-Americans, but he never got the chance to make that film.

tsj017
01-15-2007, 01:33 PM
It's amazing how racism has become the ultimate sin, the trump card that beats all other human failings.

John Rocker may be a buffoon, but how can anyone seriously say he's worse than Cobb or Bonds? Cobb was loathed by virtually anyone who knew him.

As someone else noted, Cesar Cedeno killed someone. Call me old-fashioned, but to me, murder > racism on the "human failings" scale.

:confused:

Red Daddy
01-15-2007, 06:22 PM
Isn't Pete in the Klan??? Also, didn't he hurt that catcher really bad on purpose in an All-star game???!!!! Plus, he bet on baseball!!!!...and still bets!!!! Don't you remember that time he spoke ugly to that announcer Gray, huh, you guys forgot about that. And then to cap off his horrible, evil career, he spoke badly about Bart G. right before the man died. What a nasty person!

Patpacillosjock
01-15-2007, 10:07 PM
Isn't Pete in the Klan??? Also, didn't he hurt that catcher really bad on purpose in an All-star game???!!!! Plus, he bet on baseball!!!!...and still bets!!!! Don't you remember that time he spoke ugly to that announcer Gray, huh, you guys forgot about that. And then to cap off his horrible, evil career, he spoke badly about Bart G. right before the man died. What a nasty person!


Um pete was not in the klan.

Ray Fosse is the catcher you are thinking of and it wasnt on purpose. just an extreme hustle play in an all star game when it stilll meant something to win it.

Jim Gray ruined his Mastercard greatest players moment by being a buzzkill and asking a ballsy question on national tv

And Bartlett Giamatti died of a heart attack because he ate, drank and smoked too much. not because pete said anything negative about him

btw i pray you are being sarcastic and using some extremely dry humor in your post

redsupport
01-15-2007, 11:29 PM
pat pacillo rules!

Cedric
01-16-2007, 12:06 AM
Players like Kirby Puckett should tell you that you really never know. It's just like anything else in life, some people just are good at hiding it.

cincinnati chili
01-16-2007, 12:07 AM
It's amazing how racism has become the ultimate sin, the trump card that beats all other human failings.

John Rocker may be a buffoon, but how can anyone seriously say he's worse than Cobb or Bonds? Cobb was loathed by virtually anyone who knew him.

As someone else noted, Cesar Cedeno killed someone. Call me old-fashioned, but to me, murder > racism on the "human failings" scale.

:confused:

Not that I necessarily believe him, but in the outstanding book "Nice Guys Finish Last," Leo Durochers said that he didn't believe that the murder charges were legit. And he was no fan of Cedeno, so he didn't particularly have a motive to back him up.

Chip R
01-16-2007, 12:18 AM
Not that I necessarily believe him, but in the outstanding book "Nice Guys Finish Last," Leo Durochers said that he didn't believe that the murder charges were legit. And he was no fan of Cedeno, so he didn't particularly have a motive to back him up.


I think Bill James said something simiar.

Steve4192
01-16-2007, 08:19 AM
Players like Kirby Puckett should tell you that you really never know. It's just like anything else in life, some people just are good at hiding it.

Word.

OJ Simpson was once universally considered one of the nicest and most approachable NFL hall of famers. Shows how much we really know about these guys.

westofyou
01-17-2007, 11:08 AM
Bill James touches on Cap Anson (and Steroids) in a BP interview

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5810&PHPSESSID=645e942056fd3ef1882506dd5a6cd0a2


Canseco was a terrific player for a few years, and if you want to remember him for that, be my guest. If you want to remember him as the hot dog who Charlie Browned a ball with the Red Sox and hurt his arm pitching, you're free to remember him that way.

But Canseco occupies the same chair with respect to the mess we're in now that Cap Anson does in regard to segregation in baseball. Everybody in that era played a segregated game; everybody lived segregated lives. But Cap Anson carries much of the moral responsibility for segregation in baseball, because of the role that he played in driving blacks out of the game. The same for Canseco. We're all living in the steroid era, and a lot of players used or are using PEDs. But Canseco carries much of the moral responsibility for it because of the role that he played in making baseball less than it should be.

Team Clark
01-17-2007, 11:12 AM
If we're talking about racist ballplayers you have to throw Michael Tucker in there. What a jerk.

Cal Ripken was not real pleasant. Believe it or not. His PR machine was pretty good though.

Kevin Mitchell was not the best person in the world either.

westofyou
01-17-2007, 11:32 AM
Kevin Mitchell was not the best person in the world either.

Also in the news, Charlie Brown has a round head!!

vaticanplum
01-17-2007, 01:32 PM
I think the racism thing needs to be clarified (which is what woy is doing)...I don't think that anyone is criticizing players just for their personal racist opinions. the point is that we're singling out the ones whose racism had a massive and long-lasting impact on the sport.

Rocker, for example, is pretty much an all-around despicable guy as far as I'm concerned, but his hatred impacted only his own career, not so much his sport. Same for Puckett and his shortcomings (in that case not even his career, really). Anson's racism, though, had a serious impact on the sport, more so than almost any of the other racists running around at the time. And the irony in that one (per my original post) is that apart from that he really DIDN'T seem to be such a bad guy. But his impact on the sport? Gargantuan. Mostly bad, some very good. It's complicated.

George Anderson
01-17-2007, 02:27 PM
"It's the most hectic, nerve-racking city. Imagine having to take the 7 Train to the ballpark, looking like you're riding through Beirut next to some kid with purple hair, next to some queer with AIDS, right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time, right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids. It's depressing."

Yep, not much to argue there.

This is America, after all; we were built on the idea of a homogenous society.

I dont understand how you or anyone else can refer to Rocker as a despicable human being based on the comments above.

I have a hard time believing that anyone would feel safe if some kid with purple hair came in and sat next to you on a subway. I would not run away like a scared little kid, but trust me I wouldnt be overly thrilled if an individual that looked like that sat next to me nor would most of society.

Same idea behind someone with aids sitting next to me. Sorry but I dont want someone who has a deadly disease sitting next to me especially considering that person acquired that disease by leading an unhealthy and immoral lifestyle.

Again, same rational with sitting next to a guy who just got out of jail for the fourth time. Sorry but no one with an ounce of common sense would want to be around a convict let alone sit on the same subway train with them.

On the 20 year old woman with 4 kids, If the 20 year old woman was responsible and could afford those 4 kids then great. More than likely though most 20 year old women who have 4 kids have them all out of wed lock and are a huge drain on society. Again Rocker simply was stating the truth.

In closing John Rocker said absolutley nothing wrong. Unfortunately in todays politically correct society driven by the main stream media we cannot state the truth but we have to ignore the dreads of society all in the spirit we dont want to hurt anyones feelings.

vaticanplum
01-17-2007, 02:47 PM
I dont understand how you or anyone else can refer to Rocker as a despicable human being based on the comments above.

I have a hard time believing that anyone would feel safe if some kid with purple hair came in and sat next to you on a subway. I would not run away like a scared little kid, but trust me I wouldnt be overly thrilled if an individual that looked like that sat next to me nor would most of society.

Same idea behind someone with aids sitting next to me. Sorry but I dont want someone who has a deadly disease sitting next to me especially considering that person acquired that disease by leading an unhealthy and immoral lifestyle.

Again, same rational with sitting next to a guy who just got out of jail for the fourth time. Sorry but no one with an ounce of common sense would want to be around a convict let alone sit on the same subway train with them.

On the 20 year old woman with 4 kids, If the 20 year old woman was responsible and could afford those 4 kids then great. More than likely though most 20 year old women who have 4 kids have them all out of wed lock and are a huge drain on society. Again Rocker simply was stating the truth.

In closing John Rocker said absolutley nothing wrong. Unfortunately in todays politically correct society driven by the main stream media we cannot state the truth but we have to ignore the dreads of society all in the spirit we dont want to hurt anyones feelings.

Wow. Just...wow.

I don't see anything you said as "truth".

George Anderson
01-17-2007, 02:51 PM
Wow. Just...wow.

I don't see anything you said as "truth".

So just whats not true?

pedro
01-17-2007, 02:51 PM
I dont understand how you or anyone else can refer to Rocker as a despicable human being based on the comments above.

I have a hard time believing that anyone would feel safe if some kid with purple hair came in and sat next to you on a subway. I would not run away like a scared little kid, but trust me I wouldnt be overly thrilled if an individual that looked like that sat next to me nor would most of society.

Same idea behind someone with aids sitting next to me. Sorry but I dont want someone who has a deadly disease sitting next to me especially considering that person acquired that disease by leading an unhealthy and immoral lifestyle.

Again, same rational with sitting next to a guy who just got out of jail for the fourth time. Sorry but no one with an ounce of common sense would want to be around a convict let alone sit on the same subway train with them.

On the 20 year old woman with 4 kids, If the 20 year old woman was responsible and could afford those 4 kids then great. More than likely though most 20 year old women who have 4 kids have them all out of wed lock and are a huge drain on society. Again Rocker simply was stating the truth.

In closing John Rocker said absolutley nothing wrong. Unfortunately in todays politically correct society driven by the main stream media we cannot state the truth but we have to ignore the dreads of society all in the spirit we dont want to hurt anyones feelings.

Wow. I'm appalled but I guess I can't say I'm shocked.

Team Clark
01-17-2007, 02:54 PM
Also in the news, Charlie Brown has a round head!!

Well, I can definitely say you have a point there...:beerme:

Chip R
01-17-2007, 03:02 PM
So just whats not true?


Pretty much your entire post but this one was a beaut.



Same idea behind someone with aids sitting next to me. Sorry but I dont want someone who has a deadly disease sitting next to me especially considering that person acquired that disease by leading an unhealthy and immoral lifestyle.

George Anderson
01-17-2007, 03:05 PM
Pretty much your entire post but this one was a beaut.

If you walked in a subway and had the choice to sit next to a man in a business suit or next to someone dying of a deadly disease as the result of their own irresponsible actions, just who would you sit next to??

Heath
01-17-2007, 03:11 PM
If you walked in a subway and had the choice to sit next to a man in a business suit or next to someone dying of a deadly disease as the result of their own irresponsible actions, just who would you sit next to??

How do you know that the business suit guy doesn't have AIDS? Just because he has a suit on?

:dunno:

Anyway, I've been on the subways in NYC a lot - Most people look normal. Sure, the panhandlers get out, but a motion to the subway cops and they skidaddle pretty quickly. Most people look like people, IMO.

Chip R
01-17-2007, 03:13 PM
If you walked in a subway and had the choice to sit next to a man in a business suit or next to someone dying of a deadly disease as the result of their own irresponsible actions, just who would you sit next to??


You said they contracted the disease because of their lifestyle. Even you aren't ignorant enough to believe that.

pedro
01-17-2007, 03:16 PM
Just don't sit next to me.

Puffy
01-17-2007, 03:16 PM
I keep seeing what a big role Cap Anson had in keeping baseball segregated, but he was a bit player in that. Landis was the main person doing the segragating. Isn't it funny that Jackie Robinson played his first game less than 12 months after Landis retired??

George Anderson
01-17-2007, 03:18 PM
You said they contracted the disease because of their lifestyle. Even you aren't ignorant enough to believe that.

Yes, Aids is very prevelant in the homosexual community. I cant believe you didnt know that.

Also instead of personally attacking me,why dont you spend your time answering my question instead.

westofyou
01-17-2007, 03:19 PM
So just whats not true?

Blue hair?

I'd sit next somebody with blue hair before I sat next to some bloated businessman who smells like scotch and tobacco.

John Rocker has a fan base..... no paradigm shift there, just another sad statement about assumptions and other idiotic scenarios painted to discard other humans from our line of sight.

pedro
01-17-2007, 03:19 PM
I keep seeing what a big role Cap Anson had in keeping baseball segregated, but he was a bit player in that. Landis was the main person doing the segragating. Isn't it funny that Jackie Robinson played his first game less than 12 months after Landis retired??

I always got that impression too.

westofyou
01-17-2007, 03:26 PM
I keep seeing what a big role Cap Anson had in keeping baseball segregated, but he was a bit player in that. Landis was the main person doing the segragating. Isn't it funny that Jackie Robinson played his first game less than 12 months after Landis retired??

Cap holds the 1876-1921 Title, the rest belongs to the Landis, Ruppert's and Yawkey's of the world.

How bad was it?

When the Reds signed the Cuban player Armando Marsans they went ot greta lengths to provide paperwork to the game and the local press to "certify" his whiteness and lack of black blood.

http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/bbc/1700/1780/1782fr.jpg

Chip R
01-17-2007, 03:27 PM
Yes, Aids is very prevelant in the homosexual community. I cant believe you didnt know that.

Also instead of personally attacking me,why dont you spend your time answering my question instead.

So you are not aware of any other way AIDS can be contracted? And it's not just homosexuals that lead unhealthy and immoral lifestyles.

Handofdeath
01-17-2007, 03:28 PM
I dont understand how you or anyone else can refer to Rocker as a despicable human being based on the comments above.

I have a hard time believing that anyone would feel safe if some kid with purple hair came in and sat next to you on a subway. I would not run away like a scared little kid, but trust me I wouldnt be overly thrilled if an individual that looked like that sat next to me nor would most of society.

Same idea behind a queer with aids sitting next to me. Sorry but I dont want someone who has a deadly disease sitting next to me especially considering that person acquired that disease by leading an unhealthy and immoral lifestyle.

Again, same rational with sitting next to a guy who just got out of jail for the fourth time. Sorry but no one with an ounce of common sense would want to be around a convict let alone sit on the same subway train with them.

On the 20 year old woman with 4 kids, If the 20 year old woman was responsible and could afford those 4 kids then great. More than likely though most 20 year old women who have 4 kids have them all out of wed lock and are a huge drain on society. Again Rocker simply was stating the truth.

In closing John Rocker said absolutley nothing wrong. Unfortunately in todays politically correct society driven by the main stream media we cannot state the truth but we have to ignore the dreads of society all in the spirit we dont want to hurt anyones feelings.


Why should someone with purple hair scare me or make me uncomfortable? If they want to look that way what concern is it of mine? It's a free country. Is he or she a good person? What kind of character do they have? I would much rather sit beside someone with purple hair who has respect for others and a good heart than someone dressed like a million bucks who would cut your throat if it would make them more money.

The "queer with AIDS"? Unless they tell you how do you know? And if so, who cares? I'm not having sex with them or exchangng needles or bodily fluids. Perhaps they don't lead a healthy lifestyle. Maybe I don't agree with their lifestyle choices but they still deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. I'm no angel myself. My feelings about the ex-con are the same as with the person with AIDS.

The 20 year old woman with 4 kids? There are too many possibilities out there to list that would result in a situation like that. Maybe all 4 kids are from the same father and he took off. Maybe she has trouble picking a good man because she never had it at home when she was a child. Am I in favor of people out there having sex whenever they want to and damn the consequences? No. But no child should ever have to go hungry or have to live in substandard housing. And I can think of a lot of other things that are more of a drain on society than unmarried mothers. I don't care how it happened but if a child is in need that child should be helped.

My point is I'm not here on Earth to be a moral authority to anybody but my own children. I'm no better than you and you're no better than me. Anybody who thinks otherwise better take a good look in the mirror. Everybody has their own shortcomings and skeletons in the closet. Call it political correctness. I would hope it would be called human kindness.

dabvu2498
01-17-2007, 03:30 PM
So you are not aware of any other way AIDS can be contracted? And it's not just homosexuals that lead unhealthy and immoral lifestyles.

Roughly 1/3 of new AIDS cases are a direct result of heterosexual activity.

George Anderson
01-17-2007, 03:35 PM
So you are not aware of any other way AIDS can be contracted? And it's not just homosexuals that lead unhealthy and immoral lifestyles.

Yes Aids is also contracted by drug users. Yet another group of people myself and many others would prefer not to be around.

Let me fill you in. I have several relatives who are gay. One ironically lives in San Francisco and has aids. I have met him several times and we get along fine. However the day he dies because of his disease, while I will mourn him I will not have any more sympathy for him than i would have for someone who killed themselves in a car accident as the result of being drunk. To often in todays society we let irresponsible people off the hook because we are so afraid of hurting someones feelings. If you are irresponsible and drive drunk, use drugs or participate in risky sexual behavior then yes you will and should pay the consequences.

Puffy
01-17-2007, 03:36 PM
Cap holds the 1876-1921 Title, the rest belongs to the Landis, Ruppert's and Yawkey's of the world.



Yup, and that goes back to the "times" issue.

Honestly, this country probably wasn't ready for integration in the baseball world in Anson's time. Look what black boxers went through when they fought white fighters (a sport that was "integrated"). If two blacks fought in the 1920s how many white people do you think would have shown up to watch the fight? The only reason black fighters were allowed was because the whites had the option to cheer on whitey to kick the coloreds butt. In a team sport that just wasn't happening. So gate admissions would have been hurt.

But Landis has less of an excuse, IMO.

Danny Serafini
01-17-2007, 03:37 PM
Not to play forum police or anything since it's not my job, but in the interest of keeping this thread unlocked so the baseball discussion can continue maybe some of this other stuff should be taken to the other board.

dsmith421
01-17-2007, 03:38 PM
My intial comment was improvident and has thus been deleted.

Suffice it to say that I disagree heartily with G.A.

George Anderson
01-17-2007, 03:38 PM
Roughly 1/3 of new AIDS cases are a direct result of heterosexual activity.

Im sure of the 1/3 of those cases many are drug users. Again not the kind of people I prefer to keep company with

Chip R
01-17-2007, 03:39 PM
Yes Aids is also contracted by drug users. Yet another group of people myself and many others would prefer not to be around.

Hemophiliacs as well.

Puffy
01-17-2007, 03:40 PM
I dont understand how you or anyone else can refer to Rocker as a despicable human being based on the comments above.

I have a hard time believing that anyone would feel safe if some kid with purple hair came in and sat next to you on a subway. I would not run away like a scared little kid, but trust me I wouldnt be overly thrilled if an individual that looked like that sat next to me nor would most of society.

Same idea behind someone with aids sitting next to me. Sorry but I dont want someone who has a deadly disease sitting next to me especially considering that person acquired that disease by leading an unhealthy and immoral lifestyle.

Again, same rational with sitting next to a guy who just got out of jail for the fourth time. Sorry but no one with an ounce of common sense would want to be around a convict let alone sit on the same subway train with them.

On the 20 year old woman with 4 kids, If the 20 year old woman was responsible and could afford those 4 kids then great. More than likely though most 20 year old women who have 4 kids have them all out of wed lock and are a huge drain on society. Again Rocker simply was stating the truth.

In closing John Rocker said absolutley nothing wrong. Unfortunately in todays politically correct society driven by the main stream media we cannot state the truth but we have to ignore the dreads of society all in the spirit we dont want to hurt anyones feelings.

Word.

I also don't like sitting next to any chinese people on the subway. They obviously know karate, smell like MSG, and are communists.

Oh, and also the Bolivians. I don't know what fade into Bolivia means, but dammit I'm not taking a chance of sitting next to them and fading somewhere! No sirree bob.

westofyou
01-17-2007, 03:40 PM
Honestly, this country probably wasn't ready for integration in the baseball world in Anson's time. Look what black boxers went through when they fought white fighters (a sport that was "integrated").
The Jack Johnson affair.


"I am going into this fight for the sole purpose of proving that a white man is better than a Negro."

James J. Jeffries - 1910

Puffy
01-17-2007, 03:42 PM
The Jack Johnson affair.

Jack Johnson was an amazing fighter - who had a taste for the white woman :)

Seriously, Johnson was a tremendous fighter and I think the abuse he took really caused him serious harm later in life.

A&E had a tremendous piece on him (i think it was A&E)

DaReds22
01-17-2007, 03:49 PM
how do you get a picture off the internet for your signature

vaticanplum
01-17-2007, 03:49 PM
If you walked in a subway and had the choice to sit next to a man in a business suit or next to someone dying of a deadly disease as the result of their own irresponsible actions, just who would you sit next to??

Speaking as someone who rode the subway every day for many years, I'd sit next to the person who is smaller and more polite so that I have more room to park my butt. Generally speaking, this is not a businessperson.

Of course, my "who is dying of a deadly disease because of their own irresponsible actions?" censor malfunctions a lot of the time, so that helps my ease my choice.

Chip R
01-17-2007, 03:53 PM
how do you get a picture off the internet for your signature


No pictures in the sigs.

DaReds22
01-17-2007, 04:02 PM
Thankyou for replying how do you get a picture to show up on the left then. what ever that is called

Chip R
01-17-2007, 04:09 PM
Thankyou for replying how do you get a picture to show up on the left then. what ever that is called


This should answer your questions.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31261

dabvu2498
01-17-2007, 04:14 PM
Jack Johnson was an amazing fighter - who had a taste for the white woman :)

Seriously, Johnson was a tremendous fighter and I think the abuse he took really caused him serious harm later in life.

A&E had a tremendous piece on him (i think it was A&E)

It was PBS. There is also a very good book that has been published in the last year or so called Forty Million Dollar Slaves that covers the history of the black athlete in American sports. It spends some time on Johnson and other black fighters of the day as well as numerous successful black jockeys of the early 20th century. Highly recommend.

Puffy
01-17-2007, 04:17 PM
It was PBS. There is also a very good book that has been published in the last year or so called Forty Million Dollar Slaves that covers the history of the black athlete in American sports. It spends some time on Johnson and other black fighters of the day as well as numerous successful black jockeys of the early 20th century. Highly recommend.

Yes! It was Ken Burns.

I'll have to check that book out next time I go to Books a Million and drink coffee and need something to read.

Cyclone792
01-17-2007, 04:37 PM
In an effort to get this thread back on track, I stated a few pages back that Hal Chase got my vote, and here's a quick sampling why ...

Chase was a master manipulator, and throwing games for a few bucks was just part of the deal with him. He'd convince teammates and opponents not only to throw a game, but that what they were doing by throwing the games was the right thing to do. He was the ultimate in corrupt on the baseball diamond, and he willingly purposely corrupted any regular person, owner, manager, player (teammate or opponent) that he could. He befriended rookies and other young players quickly, because rookies didn't know any better. They worshipped Chase, and they listened to everything he said thinking that Chase's way was the right way to do things.

One of Chase's biggest manipulation ploys was with the Highlanders in 1910. George Stallings was their manager, and by all accounts he was a pretty good manager and the team improved dramatically when he came onboard, despite his tendencies to curse up and down the dugout during the game. Chase was pissed that the Highlanders passed him up for the manager's job and hired Stallings ... so Chase started throwing games in an effort to get Stallings fired. Think about this, Chase wasn't just throwing these games for cash; he was throwing them out of spite and revenge in an effort to get his manager fired so he could be named the manager himself. Stallings figured out what was going on and declared that if the Highlanders didn't get rid of Chase, he would resign.

Chase then proceeded to go to ownership and persuade them that Stallings was the one who needed to go, not Chase, and ownership listened to the master manipulator. Stallings quit and went on to manage the Browns while Chase was hired as player/manager of the Highlanders. The Highlanders went down the toilet immediately, and a few years later Stallings led the Browns to a World Series victory.

The the combo of throwing games - either for money or other shady actions - plus the creepiness that followed Chase around while systematically destroying each clubhouse he was in separates him from guys like Cobb, Hornsby, Rocker and Bonds, IMO.

Those four were/are jerks, but whatever damage they did in the clubhouse usually didn't tilt the standings much, unlike the damage Chase caused. Chase moved from team to team frequently and the same things always happened: the team he left got dramatically better while his new team got worse, which is ironic considering Chase was regarded as the finest fielding first sackers of his day while also being a decent hitter.

The New York Highlanders/Yankees were awful during Chase's career there, with the only amount of success coming when Stallings managed the club. When Chase took over for Stallings, the team lost 12 games in the standings. The White Sox claimed they were AL favorites upon acquiring Chase in 1913. Chase arrives, and the team suddenly collapses. Then Chase leaves in 1914, and the team becomes perennial AL pennant contenders, winning the World Series in 1917 (and we all know about 1919). Chase went to the Reds in 1916, and the team lost 11 games from 1915. The Reds did improve in 1917 and 1918 with Chase on the team, but it was only after they dumped Chase after the 1918 season that they ran away with the NL flag in 1919. Even Buffalo, the Federal League team Chase played on for a short period had Hal Chase type rumors and controversy swirling amongst them.

Are the team's collapses and rebirths entirely Chase's fault? Probably not, there's always multiple factors at work, but Chase was undoubtedly one of those key factors at work. Some believe that if Hal Chase never existed, the Black Sox Scandal may never have occurred. That's impossible to prove, but it's an interesting theory with some merit. Chase himself knew about the scandal and convinced certain participating gamblers that it could work, and he also ultimately walked away from the scandal $40,000 richer.

For me, it all comes down to if I only had to choose one player, which one player would I not want around my team if I'm trying to win. That one player is Hal Chase, and it's not even close. If ever there was one person capable of destroying an entire team, Hal Chase was that one person.

Red Daddy
01-17-2007, 05:38 PM
This is the lamest thread ever, a stupid topic and then social rantings. I started the rumor that Pete was in the klan and I stand by it. Pete Rose was the most horriblist person in baseball. Horribler than Rocker because we mustn't judge Rocker. His father may have been a racist. Rocker cannot be responsible for his thoughts in today's kind and gentle world. I pray I haven't offended anyone. I apologize if I have.

:mooner:

George Anderson
01-17-2007, 05:44 PM
This is the lamest thread ever, a stupid topic and then social rantings. I started the rumor that Pete was in the klan and I stand by it. Pete Rose was the most horriblist person in baseball. Horribler than Rocker because we mustn't judge Rocker. His father may have been a racist. Rocker cannot be responsible for his thoughts in today's kind and gentle world. I pray I haven't offended anyone. I apologize if I have.

:mooner:

I have a very hard time believing Peter Edward Rose was in the Klan. Early in his career he spent quite a bit of time with Frank Robinson and Vada Pinson. According to Pete he received quite a bit of grief from the other players for this. This is hardly the actions of someone who has membership in the Klan.

Hap
01-17-2007, 06:25 PM
I have a very hard time believing Peter Edward Rose was in the Klan. Early in his career he spent quite a bit of time with Frank Robinson and Vada Pinson. According to Pete he received quite a bit of grief from the other players for this. This is hardly the actions of someone who has membership in the Klan.

And Pete has stated several times that he hung with FRob and Vada because they were his friends and not for any other reason. Also, ask Lee May or Tony Perez if Pete was a racist. They have both stated that Pete pulled his strings locally to always make sure these guys were treated like gold everywhere they went.

Red Daddy
01-17-2007, 09:58 PM
Don't you remember Pete's spikey hair??? Only a white pointy hood could give someone hair that looks like that. As for Pete being racist, I thought I heard he was a new age Klansman who hated white people and chinese. Pete was sort of a new age Klansman.

919191
01-18-2007, 02:23 AM
If you walked in a subway and had the choice to sit next to a man in a business suit or next to someone dying of a deadly disease as the result of their own irresponsible actions, just who would you sit next to??

Wherever looked most comfortable. But any regular kind of conservative looking cotton t shirt wearing straight oriented corporate rock listening kind of guy like George or me can tell who is dying and who isn't (aren't we all except for the rare immortal) just by a glance would know who to sit by and who not to sit by, since we all now the deadly virus that haunts us all can literally leap the distance of a bus seat.

RedsBaron
01-18-2007, 05:45 AM
And Pete has stated several times that he hung with FRob and Vada because they were his friends and not for any other reason. Also, ask Lee May or Tony Perez if Pete was a racist. They have both stated that Pete pulled his strings locally to always make sure these guys were treated like gold everywhere they went.

I do not regard Red Daddy's threads calling Rose to be a racist to be serious. For all his shortcomings, racism isn't one of Pete Rose's sins.

bomarl1969
01-18-2007, 09:14 AM
I do not regard Red Daddy's threads calling Rose to be a racist to be serious. For all his shortcomings, racism isn't one of Pete Rose's sins.


Pete Rose shouldn't be remembered for his sins...he should be remembered for the fact that he loved Cincinnati, loved the Reds, helped anchor one of the greatest baseball teams ever, his hustle, his disire to win, his hit streak, his hit record, well...you get the point. I love it how people say they can accept people being gay, atheist, etc. But Pete Rose cannot be accepted as a HOFer because he gambled...WHO CARES? Its his money, his business, his thrill, DEAL WITH IT! If anyone actually believes that Pete would have purposely thrown a Reds game for money they need their heads examined thoroughly! Pete Rose is an excellent human being and should never be mentioned in the worst humans to ever play MLB thread. PATHETIC! :angry:

DaReds22
01-18-2007, 09:29 AM
Thank you Chip R. hopefully i will be able to meet the requirements in about a month

oneupper
01-18-2007, 09:35 AM
In an effort to get this thread back on track, I stated a few pages back that Hal Chase got my vote, and here's a quick sampling why ...



Nice Post, Cyc. However, I'm curious. How could Chase manage to play 15 years (his stats weren't good). Was something else going on?

DaReds22
01-18-2007, 09:38 AM
My favorite baseball player of all time is TY Cobb. Even though he was a jerk he is still one of the top ten players of all time. I voted for JOn Rocker because he was an iditiot he said some of the dumbest things.

MrCinatit
01-18-2007, 10:01 AM
In an effort to get this thread back on track, I stated a few pages back that Hal Chase got my vote, and here's a quick sampling why ...


Chase's name was also mentioned as being a suspect for helping the Whitesox blow the World Series. Linkity Link here. (http://www.vintagecardboard.com/Chase_Nomad.asp)
BTW, Cyclone, one small correction: Stallings took the Boston Braves to an improbable World Series victory in 1914.
Finally, it seems 120 years after Anson, we as humans still have a very long way to go in understanding people who are different from ourselves.

WVJulz
01-18-2007, 10:23 AM
1920's? Try 1940's in West Virginia.

Robert Byrd, a U.S. Senate Democrat since 1959, was a Klansman in his 20's, and left behind some real doozies for us to ponder years later:

Byrd commented on the 1945 controversy raging over the idea of racially integrating the military. In his book When Jim Crow Met John Bull[3], Graham Smith referred to a letter written that year by Byrd, when he was 28 years old, to segregationist Senator Theodore Bilbo of Mississippi, in which Byrd vowed never to fight:

"with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."[4]

source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd)

In fairness to Byrd, he had a horrible background and childhood, and it's amazing that he managed to pull himself out of his background, revise his views (allegedly), go to college (in his 30s), then law school (in his 40s) and to still be active in politics well into his 80s.

He didn't allegedly revise his views. Robert Byrd is a wonderful, Christian man. He has done more for our state than any other politician and truly and genuinely cares about his constituents. I am a West Virginian born and bred and proud that he is our senator. I get so tired of people bringing up the fact that he was in the Klan. It was a looooooooong time ago and he was a young man and like every one seems to be saying on here about the time and place some of the older ball players were raised. That's the way a lot of Americans felt about negroes. It doesn't mean that he still feels that way. He was quoted in 2005 saying " "I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times . . . and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened." He is an eloquent, passionate leader and obviously is loved and respected by the citizens of West Virginia because he was just reelcted overwhelmingly to a ninth term. He has cast more votes than any senator in history. Almost 18,000 of them. There is no one else like him.

Julz

Handofdeath
01-18-2007, 10:24 AM
Nice Post, Cyc. However, I'm curious. How could Chase manage to play 15 years (his stats weren't good). Was something else going on?

Chase had charisma. Not as much as this guy but he still had it.

redsmetz
01-18-2007, 10:29 AM
[B][He didn't allegedly revise his views. Robert Byrd is a wonderful, Christian man. He has done more for our state than any other politician and truly and genuinely cares about his constituents. I am a West Virginian born and bred and proud that he is our senator. I get so tired of people bringing up the fact that he was in the Klan. It was a looooooooong time ago and he was a young man and like every one seems to be saying on here about the time and place some of the older ball players were raised. That's the way a lot of Americans felt about negroes. It doesn't mean that he still feels that way. He was quoted in 2005 saying " "I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times . . . and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened." He is an eloquent, passionate leader and obviously is loved and respected by the citizens of West Virginia because he was just reelcted overwhelmingly to a ninth term. He has cast more votes than any senator in history. Almost 18,000 of them. There is no one else like him.

Julz

:clap: :clap:

westofyou
01-18-2007, 10:54 AM
Nice Post, Cyc. However, I'm curious. How could Chase manage to play 15 years (his stats weren't good). Was something else going on?

Hal Chase redefined the 1st base position in an era that saw the corner players being more involved in the play of the game (deadball = infield play and 1 run strategies galore) however the ball was dead and for his career Hall had a .35 point advantage in Batting average and .52 in slugging percentage (-.02 in on base percentage) In a way he was like Tony Perez, he slugged more then he walked and he was revered mainly for one part of his game (Tony RBI's) (Chase fielding).

Traded from New York to alleviate inner problems he jumped leagues and played and managed (IIRC) the Buffalo Federal League team. Then he was signed by Gary Herrman of the Reds when the Feds folded. Most players didn't jump leagues back in that day, you either were a NL player or an AL player, deals between the leagues were pretty rare and going to the NL enabled Chase to "chase" more marks that didn't know about his ways.

As a Red he was eventually suspended because Mathewson suspected him of his usually shenanigans, though he was almost banned from the game McGraw gave him a chance in 1919 (which was a volatile year in signings due to the end of WW1)

Babe Ruth put him at 1st on his all time list.

tsj017
01-18-2007, 01:24 PM
He didn't allegedly revise his views. Robert Byrd is a wonderful, Christian man. He has done more for our state than any other politician and truly and genuinely cares about his constituents. I am a West Virginian born and bred and proud that he is our senator. I get so tired of people bringing up the fact that he was in the Klan. It was a looooooooong time ago and he was a young man and like every one seems to be saying on here about the time and place some of the older ball players were raised. That's the way a lot of Americans felt about negroes. It doesn't mean that he still feels that way. He was quoted in 2005 saying " "I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times . . . and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened." He is an eloquent, passionate leader and obviously is loved and respected by the citizens of West Virginia because he was just reelcted overwhelmingly to a ninth term. He has cast more votes than any senator in history. Almost 18,000 of them. There is no one else like him.

Julz


If his party membership was different, all the apologies in the world wouldn't be enough to save him.

This alone:


Byrd commented on the 1945 controversy raging over the idea of racially integrating the military. In his book When Jim Crow Met John Bull[3], Graham Smith referred to a letter written that year by Byrd, when he was 28 years old, to segregationist Senator Theodore Bilbo of Mississippi, in which Byrd vowed never to fight:

"with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

would be enough to make him a absolute social pariah. He'd be publicly scorned and vilified, a villain on the scale of, oh, say, John Rocker--or Marge Schott. Neither of whom, to my knowledge, had actual Klan membership in his/her past.

Luckily for the ol' Klansman, his party membership is what it is, so he gets to be the "conscience of the Senate."

Go figure.

Red Daddy
01-18-2007, 02:41 PM
An absolute amazing post about Robert Byrd's past words. You are exactly right. What if a republican, say, Trent Lott said such words or even made a joke saying 100 year old Strom Thurman would have been a great president. Oh, yea, Trent did say that, and where is he now???? Trent apologized on BET, the news shows, and radio and it simply wasn't good enough. Trent Lott has never been in the Klan nor has he given any reason to be considered a racist. He was simply a republican!!!!

Robert Byrd's comments and ACTIONS are worse than David Duke, who is the scurge of America. Robert Byrd's words were vile and disgusting and no republican could ever say anything close to that without being totally destroyed.

Maybe we should ask Byrd if Pete was in the Klan and settle it once and for all.

Handofdeath
01-18-2007, 02:56 PM
Forgive my ignorance, exactly what position did Robert Byrd play? I thought this was a baseball/Reds board.

Red Daddy
01-18-2007, 03:01 PM
Byrd played that old game, throw the noose over the strong oak tree limb.:D

Chip R
01-18-2007, 03:21 PM
Forgive my ignorance, exactly what position did Robert Byrd play? I thought this was a baseball/Reds board.


Yes, we need to stop talking about Byrd cause he's just old enough to attract Wayne.

Joseph
01-18-2007, 03:21 PM
Guys, remember the politics rule. Anymore discussion of anything other than baseball will result in the closing of this thread.

You've been warned.

Yachtzee
01-18-2007, 03:27 PM
Well, before this thread gets locked, I'd just like to add my two cents as far as the baseball discussion goes.

I voted for Cap Anson before Hal Chase was added to the list. I recognize that racism was prevalent in the day, but I think that with his position as one of the most loved and influential players and managers of one of baseball's most influential teams at the turn of the century. In his time, he had great influence on the game at the time. He lent a popular and credible face to the color line.

That being said, I've examined things more deeply and I think that I would vote Hal Chase if I had the chance to revote. If you made a movie about baseball in the early 20th century and needed someone to play the heavy, Hal Chase would be ideal.

RedsBaron
01-18-2007, 03:28 PM
Yes, we need to stop talking about Byrd cause he's just old enough to attract Wayne.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

RFS62
01-18-2007, 03:32 PM
Yes, we need to stop talking about Byrd cause he's just old enough to attract Wayne.



No problem. He can't go to the right at all.

GAC
01-18-2007, 05:07 PM
John is a reformed man.

oneupper
01-18-2007, 05:46 PM
Babe Ruth put him at 1st on his all time list.

Wow. What about that Gehrig guy?

westofyou
01-18-2007, 06:05 PM
Wow. What about that Gehrig guy?

Being a deadball era hurler I think Babe had a little bias when it came to what he really wanted from his 1st basemen.