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View Full Version : New pitching coach - New batting coach - what to expect



redsmetz
01-12-2007, 08:15 PM
Dsmith421 made this comment on the Ryan Franklin thread


It would, on the other hand, be nice if the Reds had a pitching coach with the reputation of turning around careers like the Cards do.

It got me thinking today about all the talk we're having about pitchers and who are staff is, what more we need. Not to mention what our batting order will be and who will have success and who will stink it up.

So I wondered, what effect will the new pitching coach have (Dick Pole) and the new batting coach (Brook Jacoby) and how might they help folks improve.

Redsland
01-12-2007, 09:04 PM
There is probably only a very small number of people who could come into these positions and truly have much impact.

Are these two people in that group?

The odds are against it.

redsmetz
01-12-2007, 10:29 PM
There is probably only a very small number of people who could come into these positions and truly have much impact.

Are these two people in that group?

The odds are against it.

But why is that necessarily the case? Of course, I know few are "miracle workers", but presumably we hire professionals who will bring some knowledge and insight to the team.

I honestly don't know enough about either (although I know it's been discussed), but I do wonder what they bring to the table.

Falls City Beer
01-12-2007, 10:52 PM
There is probably only a very small number of people who could come into these positions and truly have much impact.

Are these two people in that group?

The odds are against it.

I'd say neither coach has very much to work with.

Chip R
01-12-2007, 10:54 PM
But why is that necessarily the case? Of course, I know few are "miracle workers", but presumably we hire professionals who will bring some knowledge and insight to the team.

I honestly don't know enough about either (although I know it's been discussed), but I do wonder what they bring to the table.


I think Redsland is right on. Especially about Pole. He may be a good pitching coach. Maddux said that Pole had a big influence on him. But we don't need a good pitching coach. We need a great pitching coach. After Harang and Arroyo, we have Lohse and Milton. If Dave Duncan were our piching coach I'd guess that he could lower these guys' ERAs a full point and coax them to 12-15 Ws apiece. And that's not even mentioning the #5 spot. We need our first two guys to either pitch the same or improve. The #3 and 4 guys have to show they are not going to be batting tees. Let's say that Arroyo's the #2 guy. Maybe he had a bad outing or he pitches well and gets no support and the Reds lose. Then you are depending on Milton and Lohse to hopefully split. If they don't you've lost 3 in a row and have your 5th starter on the hill. If he gets whacked around that's 4 in a row and now you are hoping Harang can stop the bleeding.

There's only so much Pole can do with the dreck he as been given to work with. If he had better pitchers, he could be a good pitching coach and he wouldn't have to do a lot.

RANDY IN INDY
01-13-2007, 08:39 AM
Both coaches will probably have a noticeable impact on a few players. Their approach will sink in and make great sense with a few, and those will benefit. The chances of either really having a positive influence on all the pitchers or all the hitters is very small. I think that Pole might have a better chance of having a significant impact than Jacoby. The pitching coach position was not stable last season.

redsmetz
01-13-2007, 09:09 AM
I know on its face Dave Duncan looks like a miracle worker, but there are Cardinal fans who think he's nothing to talk about - my father-in-law hates him worse than he hates Tony LaRussa. Of course, that's just one example. I understand what you're saying, but I think "good" and "great" are shades and I'd like to believe a fresh outlook can help all around. I don't know that it will, but we needed some new approach. I also think Randy is on to something. I'm not sure the pitching coach position was solid last year. I would like to think the bullpen will be helped by Tommy Hume being back out there. His strength seems to be with the relievers. It was logical to pull him in to the pitching coach position, but in retrospect, we might have been better having someone else as interim. That's merely a guess on my part though.

RANDY IN INDY
01-13-2007, 10:48 AM
Whatever the case, the entire coaching staff needs to be on the same page. No outlaws.

Matt700wlw
01-13-2007, 10:51 AM
At least there will be a chuckle everytime Marty says "Dick Pole"....

Team Clark
01-15-2007, 12:05 PM
Two way street. The players have to "listen" and "apply". That is always a wild card. Dick Pole will have a bigger impact than Jacoby IMO.

gm
01-15-2007, 01:09 PM
The pitching coach position was not stable last season.

I always get a chuckle when I read opinions like this. All Hummer did was preside over the best Red's starting pitching since '99 (with no advanced warning due to Ruhle's health, I might add) But to hear Red's fans talk about it? Tom was in way over his head and barely kept his bullpen job at season's end.

If Pole can coach the starters as well as Hume has handled the relievers for the past 5+ years, the Red's staff should be more than alright

Team Clark
01-15-2007, 01:20 PM
I always get a chuckle when I read opinions like this. All Hummer did was preside over the best Red's starting pitching since '99 (with no advanced warning due to Ruhle's health, I might add) But to hear Red's fans talk about it? Tom was in way over his head and barely kept his bullpen job at season's end.

I wonder that same thing myself. Although the Reds did need someone with a diff't angle and more technically sound, Hummer is a pretty damn good coach. He's the sole survivor of many regimes and that should say a lot. (Mark Berry doesn't count because he was a Bullpen Catcher for 3 or 4 years)

Redsland
01-15-2007, 01:55 PM
Dick Pole will have a bigger impact than Jacoby IMO.
I've said from the beginning that Dick Pole is huge.

:)

RFS62
01-16-2007, 08:34 AM
Whatever the case, the entire coaching staff needs to be on the same page. No outlaws.



This is something I've been thinking about for a while. I think the Reds and Krivsky are trying to establish a "Reds Way".

The Cardinals have a "Cardinals Way". They teach the same thing up and down their system.

The Dodgers were famous for years with the "Dodgers Way".

And I'd definitely say the Twins take the same approach.

I'd be willing to bet that Krivsky and Castellini want to establish a "Reds Way", probably similar to the Twins model.

RANDY IN INDY
01-16-2007, 09:03 AM
I always get a chuckle when I read opinions like this. All Hummer did was preside over the best Red's starting pitching since '99 (with no advanced warning due to Ruhle's health, I might add) But to hear Red's fans talk about it? Tom was in way over his head and barely kept his bullpen job at season's end.

If Pole can coach the starters as well as Hume has handled the relievers for the past 5+ years, the Red's staff should be more than alright

Wasn't saying that Hume doesn't know his stuff or was in over his head. You, sir, put those words out there. I would say that Hume has worked with most of the pitchers on the staff in his tenure, or at least a great majority of them. It was great that he was there and familiar with the staff, but still, who knew when and if Rhule was coming back and what his situation was going to be? Who knew if Krivsky was going to bring someone else in?

Pole is the pitching coach now. Everyone knows it. Situation is stable for the time being.

flyer85
01-16-2007, 09:11 AM
not a lot a to work with and there isn't anything in their background to indicate either coach is special.

Team Clark
01-16-2007, 09:18 AM
not a lot a to work with and there isn't anything in their background to indicate either coach is special.

Same could have been said for Mike Maddux but he's done a decent job.

Dunner44
01-17-2007, 12:36 PM
There is probably only a very small number of people who could come into these positions and truly have much impact.

Are these two people in that group?

The odds are against it.

Could you say that the chances are "remote?"

Oh man, one too many times this past season.... one toooooo many times.

gonelong
01-17-2007, 12:54 PM
Two way street. The players have to "listen" and "apply". That is always a wild card. Dick Pole will have a bigger impact than Jacoby IMO.

IMO it isn't a slam dunk that players SHOULD listen to the batting or pitching coach.

Most of us would balk at taking instruction from someone that has been out of your industry for 10-15 years and wasn't as good at it then as you are right now. Top that off with they will more than likely not be your instructor within a few seasons anyway.

Sure you would listen and possibly incorporate some details if they pertain to you, but you aren't likey to make any significant changes in your approach.

OTOH, most if not all PGA golfers are better than their instructors who have been out of the game or were never in it, and they not only take instruction, they seek it out.

GL

Team Clark
01-17-2007, 01:09 PM
IMO it isn't a slam dunk that players SHOULD listen to the batting or pitching coach.

Most of us would balk at taking instruction from someone that has been out of your industry for 10-15 years and wasn't as good at it then as you are right now. Top that off with they will more than likely not be your instructor within a few seasons anyway.

Sure you would listen and possibly incorporate some details if they pertain to you, but you aren't likey to make any significant changes in your approach.

OTOH, most if not all PGA golfers are better than their instructors who have been out of the game or were never in it, and they not only take instruction, they seek it out.

GL


I couldn't agree more that players are more likely NOT to listen. The guys who do listen and really utilize their resources seem to have the most success. From my point of view anyway.

gonelong
01-17-2007, 08:28 PM
I couldn't agree more that players are more likely NOT to listen. The guys who do listen and really utilize their resources seem to have the most success. From my point of view anyway.

Given the money at stake, if I was a player I'd probably have a dedicated hitting coach much like the PGA players have a dedicated instructor. I'd not be all that interested in whatever flavor-of-the-month instructor my front office decided to hire.

GL

Team Clark
01-17-2007, 10:39 PM
Given the money at stake, if I was a player I'd probably have a dedicated hitting coach much like the PGA players have a dedicated instructor. I'd not be all that interested in whatever flavor-of-the-month instructor my front office decided to hire.

GL

What makes you think some do not? When Jeter gets in trouble he calls Paul O'Neill. There was a piece on that last year in a Yankees mag. Mattingly was all for it and encouraged him to do it. Good thing Pauly does some TV work so he can stop in. To get back to your post. There are guys out there that have their own "advisors". Sometimes it's Dad, HS Coach, College Coach, etc..

gonelong
01-18-2007, 12:11 AM
What makes you think some do not? When Jeter gets in trouble he calls Paul O'Neill. There was a piece on that last year in a Yankees mag. Mattingly was all for it and encouraged him to do it. Good thing Pauly does some TV work so he can stop in. To get back to your post. There are guys out there that have their own "advisors". Sometimes it's Dad, HS Coach, College Coach, etc..

I know that some do (Griffey Sr/Griffey Jr), I know for sure I would if I was in that position. I am just suprised that there aren't more of them that do.

GL