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Barbarossa
01-14-2007, 12:36 PM
The Enquirer says that Hamilton is going down to Florida the end of January. Seems he can't wait to get started. Jerry's been working with him, throwing BP and such. It's good to see a young player anxious to get started. Brings to mind a young rookie pitcher, who in 1990, also went down early and started the season like a house afire. We could use a little more of that magic.

KoryMac5
01-14-2007, 12:55 PM
The Enquirer says that Hamilton is going down to Florida the end of January. Seems he can't wait to get started. Jerry's been working with him, throwing BP and such. It's good to see a young player anxious to get started. Brings to mind a young rookie pitcher, who in 1990, also went down early and started the season like a house afire. We could use a little more of that magic.

I think the kid knows it is his last shot, if he fails with the Reds his career will more than likely be over.

MrCinatit
01-14-2007, 01:05 PM
I think the kid knows it is his last shot, if he fails with the Reds his career will more than likely be over.

This could be a good thing. If the kid is willing to fight to stay in the game, this could be a passion this team needs.

RedsManRick
01-14-2007, 01:15 PM
If there's any player in baseball that will be a good influence on him, Junior is the guy. A season on the roster with Junior will be good. Hopefully he takes after him and not Dunn...

redsupport
01-14-2007, 01:23 PM
maybe griffey can teach him how to miss half the season with a toe injury

dougdirt
01-14-2007, 01:39 PM
maybe griffey can teach him how to miss half the season with a toe injury

Or maybe he can show him how to be one of the best players ever to put on a pair of cletes.....

Seriously, the cheap shots at Griffey for getting hurt get real old sometimes around here.

redsupport
01-14-2007, 01:46 PM
so do his injuries they more than "old' they are fossilized

Highlifeman21
01-14-2007, 01:47 PM
If there's any player in baseball that will be a good influence on him, Junior is the guy. A season on the roster with Junior will be good. Hopefully he takes after him and not Dunn...

I wouldn't mind him taking after either Griffey or Dunn.

Sure thing 1st ballot HOF or emerging star with a solid start to a career. It's a win win situation for Josh Hamilton.

dougdirt
01-14-2007, 01:54 PM
so do his injuries they more than "old' they are fossilized

Yeah, I am sure that Griffey enjoys being hurt all the time. I am also sure that is why he came back from a hamstring injury that no one had really ever come back from before with a few screws holding it onto his leg....

If it were up to him, I bet he would play every day at 100% health, but that isnt the case. Its not his fault....you come off like he wants to be hurt all the time.

redsupport
01-14-2007, 02:25 PM
keep up the apologetica for the enshrined griffey, remember all the good he has done in the standings for the reds since his arrival

dougdirt
01-14-2007, 02:30 PM
When he has played, he has performed (outside of last year). Look at the supporting cast if you want to throw the blame at anyone. But you keep being a negative nancy and feel free to lay the blame on one player rather than an entire 25 man roster who until last year hasnt had more than 1 decent pitcher on the team in a single season since 1999.

RedFanAlways1966
01-14-2007, 02:35 PM
maybe griffey can teach him how to miss half the season with a toe injury

Half the season with a toe injury? That is news to me. Please explain how the man missed half the season with a toe injury. I try to follow these things, but sometimes I miss certain details. Maybe I missed this one.

:confused:

dougdirt
01-14-2007, 02:42 PM
Griffey didnt miss half a season with a toe injury, he missed like 3 weeks.

RedFanAlways1966
01-14-2007, 02:53 PM
Griffey didnt miss half a season with a toe injury, he missed like 3 weeks.

That is what I thought... as I am pretty detailed. I thought it was 22 of the last 24 games to be exact. However, someone seems to think Griffey missed half of the season due to his injured toe. I thought the person could shed some wisdom with the comment that this person made. I'll wait and see if the wisdom will shed some light on either the injury or the comment that was made. I doubt the wisdom will bring any light to the toe injury, but might shed some light on the comment itself. Imagine that.

redsmetz
01-14-2007, 03:08 PM
maybe griffey can teach him how to miss half the season with a toe injury

Pretty good feat, missing half the season, while playing 2/3 of the season. Fuzzy math at work maybe?

LoganBuck
01-14-2007, 03:08 PM
I like that he likes Narron so much. Jerry Narron can be a father figure to him, without having to have another player do it. Hamilton must know that Narron has taken a chance on him. Lets hope he can realize his potential.

Edd Roush
01-14-2007, 04:20 PM
Back to the topic of Hamilton, props to him for getting down to Florida. Here's to him continuing to get his life back on track and contribute to the '07Reds and creating another problem of having too many outfielders.

Also, props to Jerry for helping the kid out. Heaven knows Redszone doesn't love him too much, but this shows that he cares about his job.

OldXOhio
01-14-2007, 04:28 PM
Or maybe he can show him how to be one of the best players ever to put on a pair of cletes.....

Seriously, the cheap shots at Griffey for getting hurt get real old sometimes around here.

Get real old? They've been old since the first fan applauded his getting hurt in Cinergy years ago. Anytime I read this sort of garbage, I lump it in with the "Dunn's gotta go" crowd in knowing that every team must have their share of fans like these.

Jr's Boy
01-14-2007, 04:28 PM
I just hope he has someone around him to keep him out of temptation in FLA.

CougarQuest
01-14-2007, 04:33 PM
Get real old? They've been old since the first fan applauded his getting hurt in Cinergy years ago. Anytime I read this sort of garbage, I lump it in with the "Dunn's gotta go" crowd in knowing that every team must have their share of fans like these.



:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

kbrake
01-14-2007, 04:34 PM
What nobody trust Freel to look after Hamilton?

Jr's Boy
01-14-2007, 04:37 PM
What nobody trust Freel to look after Hamilton?





Freel's just a drunk not a recovering crack addict.

WMR
01-14-2007, 05:08 PM
Best of luck to Hamilton. He's got an uphill climb in front of him of Herculean proportions.

toledodan
01-14-2007, 05:13 PM
i like his chances of getting a spot. the q and todd hollansworth were on this team last year so anything is possible. speaking of hollansworth did he sign with somewhere else?

Caveat Emperor
01-14-2007, 05:46 PM
Hamilton could go to Sarasota this week and it still wouldn't make his chances of contributing this year anything more than a longshot.

Still, I wish nothing but the best for him -- both as a Reds fan and as a fellow human being.

Falls City Beer
01-14-2007, 06:10 PM
Wayne Krivsky needs a good story like nobody's business after the ugly coda of last season's end; I suspect Hamilton will get more than his fair shot to earn a roster spot. This team doesn't have very many good stories going for it, so Wayne's got to be crossing his fingers till they're purple that he can even pull out a bench position. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Wayne foist Hamilton on Jerry for a while for a little positive publicity. And when that fades, bring up Homer. Whatever the case, "winning" won't be dominating the Reds' headlines this season, so they're going to need something.

Chip R
01-14-2007, 06:31 PM
i like his chances of getting a spot. the q and todd hollansworth were on this team last year so anything is possible. speaking of hollansworth did he sign with somewhere else?


You have a great point. Is Hamilton going to be any worse than McCracken or Wise? I don't think Hollandsworth turned out too bad after a slow start but if he's used correctly, it can help in the future.

captainmorgan07
01-14-2007, 06:35 PM
good to hear i think he can help us

reds44
01-14-2007, 07:11 PM
That is good to hear. Glad he is working hard.

Joseph
01-14-2007, 09:21 PM
I kind of think its going to be Hamilton or the 3rd catcher, but not both. I'm hoping for Hamilton.

Hoosier Red
01-14-2007, 09:39 PM
Here's my question the rule 5. The year in the majors only applies to his first year right? If he has options, could they keep him in the majors this year and send him to AAA if he needs more seasoning next year?

toledodan
01-14-2007, 09:45 PM
Here's my question the rule 5. The year in the majors only applies to his first year right? If he has options, could they keep him in the majors this year and send him to AAA if he needs more seasoning next year?



he would have to be offered back to his old team first or we could trade them a player and send him down then.

redsmetz
01-14-2007, 09:54 PM
he would have to be offered back to his old team first or we could trade them a player and send him down then.

I think if he stays on the MLB all of this year and he still has options, he can be sent down next year without offering him back to Tampa Bay (presuming he stays on the 40 man roster - otherwise he'd have to clear waivers). The staying on the ML roster is only for the first year.

Joseph
01-14-2007, 10:30 PM
I think if he stays on the MLB all of this year and he still has options, he can be sent down next year without offering him back to Tampa Bay (presuming he stays on the 40 man roster - otherwise he'd have to clear waivers). The staying on the ML roster is only for the first year.

Correct. You win a prize!

M2
01-14-2007, 11:54 PM
Everytime I read a Hamilton update, it makes me realize how sad the Reds are at this moment. Spring training is right around the corner and people are trying to whip up enthusiasm over a guy who didn't play baseball for four years and who wasn't anything special in the GCL last season.

Seriously, instead of having something to get legitimately excited about we're getting a cheap tribute to Roy Hobbs.

redsupport
01-15-2007, 12:36 AM
dont say that because it spopils the delusional dreams of the misbegotten

TeamBoone
01-15-2007, 12:47 AM
Ok, I'm a bit confused by this. Remember last year when several players reported early (Dunn was one of them, BTW)? They weren't allowed to practice or work out. Only pitchers and catchers and rehabbing players were allowed to be there before the "all players" reporting deadline.

So, how can Hamilton do this?

Maybe Team Clark can straighten out my confusion.... TC?

Topcat
01-15-2007, 02:05 AM
Wayne Krivsky needs a good story like nobody's business after the ugly coda of last season's end; I suspect Hamilton will get more than his fair shot to earn a roster spot. This team doesn't have very many good stories going for it, so Wayne's got to be crossing his fingers till they're purple that he can even pull out a bench position. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Wayne foist Hamilton on Jerry for a while for a little positive publicity. And when that fades, bring up Homer. Whatever the case, "winning" won't be dominating the Reds' headlines this season, so they're going to need something.

FCB? I respect your analytical mind and your ability to disect the weaknesses of the Red's roster. My question is this ok. You have stated the ineptidude of past management and the inability to produce prospects who can come up and become contributers to the team. Just exactly is Wayne K supposed to do in 1 Calender year on the job ?

WVRedsFan
01-15-2007, 02:35 AM
Or maybe he can show him how to be one of the best players ever to put on a pair of cletes.....

Seriously, the cheap shots at Griffey for getting hurt get real old sometimes around here.

Agreed. Never should the Reds ever have another superstar. Nothing satisfies the masses.

WMR
01-15-2007, 04:05 AM
wow...

i'll ctitique KGJ as much as the next guy when it's actually warranted, but he'll still always be "The Man" IMO.

redsmetz
01-15-2007, 09:27 AM
Ok, I'm a bit confused by this. Remember last year when several players reported early (Dunn was one of them, BTW)? They weren't allowed to practice or work out. Only pitchers and catchers and rehabbing players were allowed to be there before the "all players" reporting deadline.

So, how can Hamilton do this?

Maybe Team Clark can straighten out my confusion.... TC?

Hamilton is coming off a season ending injury from last year, so he's eligible to come in and work out early as a rehabbing player.

Heath
01-15-2007, 09:30 AM
How long can we keep him on the roster? 1 year?

If the kid is everything they say he is, and if this club isn't contending, I think we can play with 24 this year.

We did it for a couple of years with ol' Wily Mo.

redsmetz
01-15-2007, 09:40 AM
How long can we keep him on the roster? 1 year?

If the kid is everything they say he is, and if this club isn't contending, I think we can play with 24 this year.

We did it for a couple of years with ol' Wily Mo.

We have to keep him on the roster for one year and then, as long as he stays on the 40 man roster, he can be sent down to the minors (assuming he's not out of options, which I don't think he is).

The thing that keeps crossing my mind is the extent of his injury from last year and whether he might be eligible for some injury rehab time in the minors. That would allow him to legitimately work his way up to the big club while getting some minor league AB's. I know his public statements early on were that he was ready to play, but I'm guessing management is hoping they can work him through the minors on a rehab assignment. But I can't say for sure.

JaxRed
01-15-2007, 09:50 AM
You can get 15 days and that's about it. You can also get some DL time. MLB has to grant permission for rehab stints, and so they won't approve extra time that would allow a team to hide a guy.

And there is a limit to how much DL time he can get before the Rule 5 restrictions roll over into another year.

If they think he still has the goods (mentally and physically) the best deal is to make a trade with Tampa to pick up his rights so he can play every day in minors. Second best, is just suck it up and say he is 5th outfielder, and next year he is regular minor leaguer.

membengal
01-15-2007, 10:03 AM
Wayne Krivsky needs a good story like nobody's business after the ugly coda of last season's end; I suspect Hamilton will get more than his fair shot to earn a roster spot. This team doesn't have very many good stories going for it, so Wayne's got to be crossing his fingers till they're purple that he can even pull out a bench position. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Wayne foist Hamilton on Jerry for a while for a little positive publicity. And when that fades, bring up Homer. Whatever the case, "winning" won't be dominating the Reds' headlines this season, so they're going to need something.

Fantastic summation of the state of things heading into spring training. That this is one of the storylines underscores just how flatline this off-season has been...

lollipopcurve
01-15-2007, 10:03 AM
If they think he still has the goods (mentally and physically) the best deal is to make a trade with Tampa to pick up his rights so he can play every day in minors. Second best, is just suck it up and say he is 5th outfielder, and next year he is regular minor leaguer.

Definitely agree with this assessment. It's going to take a couple years to develop Hamilton, if he's going to be developed at all -- expectations for him helping the big league team in any real way in 07 are misguided, in my opinion. He's got a ton of baseball talent, but huge obstacles to overcome.

M2
01-15-2007, 10:49 AM
Definitely agree with this assessment. It's going to take a couple years to develop Hamilton, if he's going to be developed at all -- expectations for him helping the big league team in any real way in 07 are misguided, in my opinion. He's got a ton of baseball talent, but huge obstacles to overcome.

Exactly, if he's got any hope of being a useful player (and I doubt he does), he's not reaching that point any time soon.

Unfortunately the team has so little to get excited about (veteran backfill doesn't do much to stir the blood), Hamilton's getting an inordinate amount of attention. He ought to be nothing more than a footnote to the upcoming season.

chicoruiz
01-15-2007, 10:53 AM
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Wayne foist Hamilton on Jerry for a while for a little positive publicity. And when that fades, bring up Homer.

1. It's not my impression that Hamilton would have to be "foisted" on Narron; Narron is supposedly Hamilton's biggest booster.

2. While Krivsky's competence (or lack of same) is certainly debatable, I've never seen him make any move just for the sake of "positive publicity". If that were the case, we'd have seen Homer in 2006. Geez, it's not like he brought Pete Junior up or something...

Ltlabner
01-15-2007, 11:03 AM
Exactly, if he's got any hope of being a useful player (and I doubt he does), he's not reaching that point any time soon.

Unfortunately the team has so little to get excited about (veteran backfill doesn't do much to stir the blood), Hamilton's getting an inordinate amount of attention. He ought to be nothing more than a footnote to the upcoming season.

Generally I agree with you M2.

But at the same time, people seem to be poo-pooing the idea that the kid wants to get to ST early in put in some extra work. Not sure how that is a bad thing whether or not he makes the team.

Kc61
01-15-2007, 11:04 AM
How long can we keep him on the roster? 1 year?

If the kid is everything they say he is, and if this club isn't contending, I think we can play with 24 this year.

We did it for a couple of years with ol' Wily Mo.

Agree. I have no doubt that Hamilton will be on the 25-man roster this year. Given his injury history the Reds will probably get him some DL time with minor league rehab (like they did for WMP when his contract status required that he be on the 25).

I don't think the Reds got this guy to sell him back to Tampa Bay. He is not your regular Rule 5 pick. Even if he plays poorly this spring the Reds will keep him because they will just assume he is rusty or perhaps not quite ready.

Heath
01-15-2007, 12:29 PM
And knowing Tampa Bay, who wants him back pretty badly, isn't just going to give up Hamilton without some "real" compensation back.

He's gonna have to make the team to keep $$ and players in the Reds Organization.

Falls City Beer
01-15-2007, 01:03 PM
1. It's not my impression that Hamilton would have to be "foisted" on Narron; Narron is supposedly Hamilton's biggest booster.

2. While Krivsky's competence (or lack of same) is certainly debatable, I've never seen him make any move just for the sake of "positive publicity". If that were the case, we'd have seen Homer in 2006. Geez, it's not like he brought Pete Junior up or something...

You may be right about #1, I don't know.

But I'll argue that, absent moves of substance, teams need something (nice stories with happy endings, fan giveaways, "disco sucks" nights, something, anything) to get fans out to the park or tuning in and watching their advertisers' commercials. The team has made it clear that advertising and publicity are front and center till the talent is ready to make its way up from the minors. If the move to bring up Hamilton isn't directly guided by Wayne himself, it will be by Castellini through Wayne. As I said, they aren't going to garner attention by the talent on the field racking up wins, and I think even Wayne realizes that.

Team Clark
01-15-2007, 01:24 PM
Hamilton is coming off a season ending injury from last year, so he's eligible to come in and work out early as a rehabbing player.

Them's is the facts.

Team Clark
01-15-2007, 01:28 PM
Generally I agree with you M2.

But at the same time, people seem to be poo-pooing the idea that the kid wants to get to ST early in put in some extra work. Not sure how that is a bad thing whether or not he makes the team.

The longer he is around camp the easier he will be to babysit. This is a good thing for him. Get him focused early. I wonder if he will be assigned a permanent counselor? I know it has happened in the past for other players.

dougdirt
01-15-2007, 02:41 PM
TC, I think it would be in both the teams and Joshs best interest to have that happen.

M2
01-15-2007, 02:48 PM
The longer he is around camp the easier he will be to babysit.

I'm not so sure about that. If I knew someone with a substance abuse problem the last thing I'd recommend is spending extra time in Florida.

Team Clark
01-15-2007, 03:36 PM
I'm not so sure about that. If I knew someone with a substance abuse problem the last thing I'd recommend is spending extra time in Florida.

At least he will be supervised for 3-4 hours per day. That's why I brought up the counselor. I know his wife and some members of his family were traveling with him last year. Sarasota is a much better option than say.. Tampa. IMO. At least he has something POSITIVE to look forward to everyday. Positive motivation.

flyer85
01-15-2007, 03:48 PM
Exactly, if he's got any hope of being a useful player (and I doubt he does), he's not reaching that point any time soon.there isn't anything even remotely in his background that suggests he is ready to play at the major league level. And that would be true even if he hadn't missed the 4 seasons. His minor league number from early in his career were good but nothing more than that. He is a numbers of years from being able to contribute at next and likely will get sent back to Tampa and never be heard from again.

Falls City Beer
01-15-2007, 03:59 PM
To hell with worrying about the guy hitting the crackpipe again, I wanna know: can he hit a hanging curve?

M2
01-15-2007, 04:13 PM
At least he will be supervised for 3-4 hours per day. That's why I brought up the counselor. I know his wife and some members of his family were traveling with him last year. Sarasota is a much better option than say.. Tampa. IMO. At least he has something POSITIVE to look forward to everyday. Positive motivation.

I'm all for trying to keep him locked down 24/7, but let's not be naive here. How hard do you think you have to look in Sarasota to get your hands on some designer stuff? I went to college with a lot of rich Floridians. They were walking pharmacies.

Wife around, counselor to shadow him, baseball to keep him busy. Them's all good ideas, but Florida, especially on the gulf, is a candy store. Hamilton's either ready to handle it or he isn't. If he isn't, bringing him down there isn't going to help him one bit.

Ltlabner
01-15-2007, 04:37 PM
Wife around, counselor to shadow him, baseball to keep him busy. Them's all good ideas, but Florida, especially on the gulf, is a candy store. Hamilton's either ready to handle it or he isn't. If he isn't, bringing him down there isn't going to help him one bit.

But if he isn't ready to handle it now he'll find a way to score whether it be Sarasota, Scranton or Sacramento. Location has nothing to do with it.

Might as well get him some extra time on the field to work out/get in shape, etc.

If he's going to melt at the first sign of temptation I'd rather find out sooner rather than later. In the meantime, get ready for spring training.

M2
01-15-2007, 04:43 PM
But if he isn't ready to handle it now he'll find a way to score whether it be Sarasota, Scranton or Sacramento. Location has nothing to do with it.

Might as well get him some extra time on the field to work out/get in shape, etc.

If he's going to melt at the first sign of temptation I'd rather find out sooner rather than later. In the meantime, get ready for spring training.

That's true. Though that was my argument for why he should have been in winter ball. I just find it a curious notion that anyone would portray sending a guy to the Gulf Coast as a sobriety-based initiative.

lollipopcurve
01-15-2007, 05:31 PM
Hamilton's getting an inordinate amount of attention. He ought to be nothing more than a footnote to the upcoming season.

Eh, whatever. Going into a season where it's pretty clear the Reds are mediocre, I don't think there are many "let's win this thing" stories out there. At least for me, the Hamilton story is as interesting a tale as has hit the Reds in a while. It's a subjective thing, but my guess is that there are a lot of people who want to follow this player's progress.

Highlifeman21
01-15-2007, 08:30 PM
Ok, I'm a bit confused by this. Remember last year when several players reported early (Dunn was one of them, BTW)? They weren't allowed to practice or work out. Only pitchers and catchers and rehabbing players were allowed to be there before the "all players" reporting deadline.

So, how can Hamilton do this?

Maybe Team Clark can straighten out my confusion.... TC?


I'm sure if it's not a sanctioned Reds practice or something of that like, Hamilton can take all the BP he wants from Jerry Narron.

edabbs44
01-15-2007, 08:41 PM
Just the fact that this guy has even an outside chance at staying on the roster for the whole season means the FO has no hope for 2007.

DoogMinAmo
01-15-2007, 09:25 PM
Just the fact that this guy has even an outside chance at staying on the roster for the whole season means the FO has no hope for 2007.

Which is fine by me, I admit 2007 is a long shot. However, I am willing to sacrifice it if it means being good to great in 08, 09, 10...

toledodan
01-15-2007, 09:42 PM
Just the fact that this guy has even an outside chance at staying on the roster for the whole season means the FO has no hope for 2007.


not to be negative but that is more likely a realistic expectation. in fairness if was a joke we competed last year because of how awful the division was. granted the cards won the WS but the division was plain bad. i love the reds as much as anyone but we have a long way to go.:help:

edabbs44
01-15-2007, 10:02 PM
not to be negative but that is more likely a realistic expectation. in fairness if was a joke we competed last year because of how awful the division was. granted the cards won the WS but the division was plain bad. i love the reds as much as anyone but we have a long way to go.:help:

I'm with you...but one second they're doling out multi-year deals to aging players and in another breath they might keep this guy on the roster the whole year. This off-season has been a bunch of conflicting WK moves.

penantboundreds
01-16-2007, 02:15 AM
I like the tidbit in there about Hamilton...sounds like he really likes the chance we gave him and is ready to come out and play for us. I hope we stole something when we got him, that would be sweet if he could peak for us and show us some of the ability he had coming out of Raleigh.

I found a few quotes from a sort of recent USA Today article explaining a little about him. "It brought back so many memories," Henderson says. "He was like a young George Brett. He was a guy that was going to hit .300, hit 30 homers a year, run. And he had maybe the best left-handed arm I've ever seen. He had everything you wanted."

"I love this game. It's the only thing I've been good at," says Hamilton.

"What's crazy is that I never even considered using steroids. I know it doesn't make sense. But I love this game so much that I would never cheat it."

I hope that Josh can regain some of that because the love for the game is there, it is almost painfully evident. He may be able to turn into a leader for this team, a leader that I feel we need in many senses of the word.

Sorry for being so Optimistic in advance.

Ron Madden
01-16-2007, 04:33 AM
Hamilton is far away from "Big League Ready" and it will show.

Wayne says what the hell.. He can be no worse than Moeller, McCracken, Wise or Castro holding down the 25th roster spot.

MaineRed
01-16-2007, 08:31 AM
Well if he can make it in the candy store then he can make it anywhere.

Where should he be working on his game, the North Pole?

The kid can either stay off the crack or he can't. I think his cellphone is probably more dangerous than the state he is in. If he wants a fix I bet he knows where to get it.

I just can't believe any relapse is going to be blamed on the state of Florida. Drugs are everywhere and not hard to find.

Ltlabner
01-16-2007, 08:38 AM
I guess I don't see the big deal about taking a $50,000 chance on a kid that at one time showed some promise. If he works out great. If not, we're out $50,000 and some spring training lunch money. If a different team picked him up and he worked out we'd hear the same moaning and crying that Wayne was stupid for passing up a cheap and creative player move.

And I really don't get the gigantic leap people are making that because he's putting in some extra work that the FO is pimping this move as the savior of the team. It was a story in the Enquirer, not a 20/20 interview where Wayne spent 12 minutes blabbering about Hamilton. This move was one piece of the puzzle and one story in a local newspaper doesn't somehow magically transform it into the cornerstone offseason move.

Team Clark
01-16-2007, 10:37 AM
I'm all for trying to keep him locked down 24/7, but let's not be naive here. How hard do you think you have to look in Sarasota to get your hands on some designer stuff? I went to college with a lot of rich Floridians. They were walking pharmacies.

Wife around, counselor to shadow him, baseball to keep him busy. Them's all good ideas, but Florida, especially on the gulf, is a candy store. Hamilton's either ready to handle it or he isn't. If he isn't, bringing him down there isn't going to help him one bit.

I 100% agree that he can find "designer" stuff anywhere. I was using Sarasota as an example because that is where the Reds facility is located. There will actaully be more people watching him on a daily basis than somewhere else. You're also right on the button that he is either able to handle it or he is not. At some point you have to move forward. Which he has, IMO.


He's 1000 to 1 to make the squad anyway. I like the fact that the Reds are taking a shot at him. I like it for a lot of reasons. I hope he does well and puts up a good showing.

TRF
01-16-2007, 10:43 AM
IF he makes the squad, we will see post after post comparing him to WMP.

And that is waaay unjustified. WMP was a baseball rat that played year round. He didn't try to destroy himself, and he's on the verge of stardom.

Hamilton was given everything, and he tossed it away. I hope he makes it back, for his family's sake. But when I say back, I mean back to being a good father and husband. I don't care what his profession is. I doubt it will be as a Major Leaguer, but you never know.

Redsland
01-16-2007, 04:22 PM
He can be no worse than Moeller, McCracken, Wise or Castro holding down the 25th roster spot.
True.

Unfortunately one of those guys is already holding down the 24th spot. Another is entrenched in the 23rd. Then there's Bubba Crosby, Jeff Keppinger, Jeff Conine, Bobby Livingston, and Jared Burton in spots 22-18. And Milton, Stanton, Weathers, and Cormier. And Belisle and Majewski. And Ramirez and Shackelford. And Valentin. And Norris Hopper. That leaves eight spots for impact players. (Minus the ones occupied by Hatteberg, Gonzalez, Ross, and Bray, who are role players. And Loshe, who I wouldn't consider "impact."

How many spots does that leave?

Exactly.

Danny Serafini
01-16-2007, 04:55 PM
Except for the fact that a batch of the players you just listed won't make the Opening Day roster. It's cheating to talk about how Crosby, Keppinger, Livingston, et al are going to be sucking up spots 18-24 when they're not even going to make the team.

Redsland
01-16-2007, 05:11 PM
Actually, every player I listed (nearly every?) has to either make the roster, be offered back to his original team, or be waived.

I tried to exclude players with options (hence no Dumatrait, Coutlangus, Shafer, etc.), but it's possible that a few guys like Ramirez, Shackleford, or Livingston have them. Everybody else either has a major league deal, is a Rule V pick-up, or is out of options.

Danny Serafini
01-16-2007, 06:46 PM
And they'll in all likelihood clear waivers and find their way to Louisville. Either way, they won't be on the 25 man, so you can't count all of them as if they were.

Ron Madden
01-17-2007, 02:39 AM
True.

Unfortunately one of those guys is already holding down the 24th spot. Another is entrenched in the 23rd. Then there's Bubba Crosby, Jeff Keppinger, Jeff Conine, Bobby Livingston, and Jared Burton in spots 22-18. And Milton, Stanton, Weathers, and Cormier. And Belisle and Majewski. And Ramirez and Shackelford. And Valentin. And Norris Hopper. That leaves eight spots for impact players. (Minus the ones occupied by Hatteberg, Gonzalez, Ross, and Bray, who are role players. And Loshe, who I wouldn't consider "impact."

How many spots does that leave?

Exactly.

Ask Wayne. :dunno:

I was just searching for some rhyme or reason to defend WK.

I'm tired of being labled as "Not A Real Reds Fan", "A Naysayer" and a "Wayne Basher". :evil:

Redsland
01-17-2007, 12:05 PM
Either way, they won't be on the 25 man, so you can't count all of them as if they were.
Obviously some of them won't be on the 25-man, because if they all were, then there'd only be three spots left for Griffey, Dunn, Freel, Denorfia, Encarnacion, Arroyo, Harang, and Coffey.

So then the question becomes, "why did we draft Rule V's like Burton, who we can't expect to have a roster spot for, why did we give major league contracts to guys like Moeller if we have no spot for them, why did we make waiver claims on guys like Livingston, who may not have options, why are we releasing guys like Olmedo and then turning around and putting guys like Keppinger on the roster, etc., etc.?"

Out with LaRue, in with Moeller. Out with Olmedo, in with Keppinger. "The Plan" appears to hinge on obtaining and/or extending an unending list of crappy players with no upside who are nickel and diming the payroll to death and taking up twentyish roster spots instead of three or four.

It's a little frustrating, particularly when I feel that this team could have pushed itself into contention during this offseason, but instead has neither improved itself, nor started to rebuild. I just don't understand why Wayne thinks that whatever it is that he is doing is going to help this team in short term or in the long term.

registerthis
01-17-2007, 12:34 PM
keep up the apologetica for the enshrined griffey, remember all the good he has done in the standings for the reds since his arrival

How's the watermelon-smashing business these days?

Puffy
01-17-2007, 12:51 PM
Obviously some of them won't be on the 25-man, because if they all were, then there'd only be three spots left for Griffey, Dunn, Freel, Denorfia, Encarnacion, Arroyo, Harang, and Coffey.

So then the question becomes, "why did we draft Rule V's like Burton, who we can't expect to have a roster spot for, why did we give major league contracts to guys like Moeller if we have no spot for them, why did we make waiver claims on guys like Livingston, who may not have options, why are we releasing guys like Olmedo and then turning around and putting guys like Keppinger on the roster, etc., etc.?"

Out with LaRue, in with Moeller. Out with Olmedo, in with Keppinger. "The Plan" appears to hinge on obtaining and/or extending an unending list of crappy players with no upside who are nickel and diming the payroll to death and taking up twentyish roster spots instead of three or four.

It's a little frustrating, particularly when I feel that this team could have pushed itself into contention during this offseason, but instead has neither improved itself, nor started to rebuild. I just don't understand why Wayne thinks that whatever it is that he is doing is going to help this team in short term or in the long term.

yup, excellently stated.

TRF
01-17-2007, 01:17 PM
Obviously some of them won't be on the 25-man, because if they all were, then there'd only be three spots left for Griffey, Dunn, Freel, Denorfia, Encarnacion, Arroyo, Harang, and Coffey.

So then the question becomes, "why did we draft Rule V's like Burton, who we can't expect to have a roster spot for, why did we give major league contracts to guys like Moeller if we have no spot for them, why did we make waiver claims on guys like Livingston, who may not have options, why are we releasing guys like Olmedo and then turning around and putting guys like Keppinger on the roster, etc., etc.?"

Out with LaRue, in with Moeller. Out with Olmedo, in with Keppinger. "The Plan" appears to hinge on obtaining and/or extending an unending list of crappy players with no upside who are nickel and diming the payroll to death and taking up twentyish roster spots instead of three or four.

It's a little frustrating, particularly when I feel that this team could have pushed itself into contention during this offseason, but instead has neither improved itself, nor started to rebuild. I just don't understand why Wayne thinks that whatever it is that he is doing is going to help this team in short term or in the long term.

I second puffy on this... a most excellent post.

This isn't anything new during Krivsky's tenure. You can go back to Cody Ross to see how often he acquires players he has no place for, or worse, no use for. Ross could have been kept, instead we got half a season of an aging "Q". yippee. Krivsky DFA's players he plans to acquire. Harris traded, Olmedo DFA'd to make room for Keppinger? What exactly was the point? It's a nothing move that actually increases the payroll, even if only minutely, without increasing the talent. Nearly all his moves since last April feel rushed, with a hint of panic. Grab two rule 5 guys, then sign a bunch of guys that will have to have 40 man roster spots. Then be forced to give them back. What a waste. Heck if you are going to just throw 50 grand away, give the ushers a bonus. Or buy 50 grand worth of pizzas and invite all the school kids to attend a baseball/pizza party. Do something worthwhile with the money.

Oh and don't address the clubs most glaring need, another starter. No, just say you are pleased as punch with slots 3-5 being Milton, Lohse and whoever is healthy. Hey, I like Ramirez. I do. I'd be ok with him as the #3 or 4 starter. But I haven't heard a peep about his season ending injury or his rehab. That makes me wonder.

Just understand this simple thing. Most of us questioning Krivsky's moves are not Krivsky bashers. We are Reds fans. Plain and simple. All of us acknowledge the good he has done. We just want more. Most of us can even acknowledge the good DanO did. (Yes... he did do a few things right. 2 pretty good drafts, and injuries were way down in the minors under his watch.)

We just want more from the guy.

WMR
01-17-2007, 05:48 PM
Obviously some of them won't be on the 25-man, because if they all were, then there'd only be three spots left for Griffey, Dunn, Freel, Denorfia, Encarnacion, Arroyo, Harang, and Coffey.

So then the question becomes, "why did we draft Rule V's like Burton, who we can't expect to have a roster spot for, why did we give major league contracts to guys like Moeller if we have no spot for them, why did we make waiver claims on guys like Livingston, who may not have options, why are we releasing guys like Olmedo and then turning around and putting guys like Keppinger on the roster, etc., etc.?"

Out with LaRue, in with Moeller. Out with Olmedo, in with Keppinger. "The Plan" appears to hinge on obtaining and/or extending an unending list of crappy players with no upside who are nickel and diming the payroll to death and taking up twentyish roster spots instead of three or four.

It's a little frustrating, particularly when I feel that this team could have pushed itself into contention during this offseason, but instead has neither improved itself, nor started to rebuild. I just don't understand why Wayne thinks that whatever it is that he is doing is going to help this team in short term or in the long term.

Straight Fire.

Spike
01-17-2007, 06:47 PM
Obviously some of them won't be on the 25-man, because if they all were, then there'd only be three spots left for Griffey, Dunn, Freel, Denorfia, Encarnacion, Arroyo, Harang, and Coffey.

So then the question becomes, "why did we draft Rule V's like Burton, who we can't expect to have a roster spot for, why did we give major league contracts to guys like Moeller if we have no spot for them, why did we make waiver claims on guys like Livingston, who may not have options, why are we releasing guys like Olmedo and then turning around and putting guys like Keppinger on the roster, etc., etc.?"

Out with LaRue, in with Moeller. Out with Olmedo, in with Keppinger. "The Plan" appears to hinge on obtaining and/or extending an unending list of crappy players with no upside who are nickel and diming the payroll to death and taking up twentyish roster spots instead of three or four.

It's a little frustrating, particularly when I feel that this team could have pushed itself into contention during this offseason, but instead has neither improved itself, nor started to rebuild. I just don't understand why Wayne thinks that whatever it is that he is doing is going to help this team in short term or in the long term.

I am not sure about the "crappy" player tag. Pretty much everyone he signed or traded for has something to offer in their own way. But you are right, there is nothing yet that will put the Reds over the top. I think the strategy comes down to this: Accumulate as many parts as you can so if a trade comes along, you have pieces that can maybe fill in.

For instance, if you trade Freel (along with Cormier say), you have Keppinger and Crosby and Livingston who might offer some back up to the loss of Freel and Cormier.

Maybe, there is a market for Valentin out there (small mind you, but a market just the same). Then you have Moeller and Crosby to cover catching and pinch hitting that Valentin offered before.

And so on...

My point is, if you make any trade like that before you have secured players, you then have to promote from the system (I believe we are lacking a little at Triple A), or scramble to make aquisitions quickly (if even possible).

If the trades never happen, you designate them for assignment at the end of Srping Training. And although I think many of these aquisitions belong on a major league roster, most teams would not pick up the Crosby's and the Moeller's and maybe even the Keppinger's at the last minute of Spring Training, and thus they either choose Free Agency, (and we then do not have to pay for them), or they go to Triple A where we have them for backup.

In the end, it has cost a little extra money, but we have lost nothing. What we have gained immediately though is some flexibility to make moves in a market when we cannot be the Chicago Cubs, or the Red sox, and we may have to pull an Arroyo-type trade out of our hat again.

redsmetz
01-17-2007, 06:56 PM
I am not sure about the "crappy" player tag. Pretty much everyone he signed or traded for has something to offer in their own way. But you are right, there is nothing yet that will put the Reds over the top. I think the strategy comes down to this: Accumulate as many parts as you can so if a trade comes along, you have pieces that can maybe fill in.

For instance, if you trade Freel (along with Cormier say), you have Keppinger and Crosby and Livingston who might offer some back up to the loss of Freel and Cormier.

Maybe, there is a market for Valentin out there (small mind you, but a market just the same). Then you have Moeller and Crosby to cover catching and pinch hitting that Valentin offered before.

And so on...

My point is, if you make any trade like that before you have secured players, you then have to promote from the system (I believe we are lacking a little at Triple A), or scramble to make aquisitions quickly (if even possible).

If the trades never happen, you designate them for assignment at the end of Srping Training. And although I think many of these aquisitions belong on a major league roster, most teams would not pick up the Crosby's and the Moeller's and maybe even the Keppinger's at the last minute of Spring Training, and thus they either choose Free Agency, (and we then do not have to pay for them), or they go to Triple A where we have them for backup.

In the end, it has cost a little extra money, but we have lost nothing. What we have gained immediately though is some flexibility to make moves in a market when we cannot be the Chicago Cubs, or the Red sox, and we may have to pull an Arroyo-type trade out of our hat again.

I've been thinking along these lines all day, but you have articulated it significantly better than I would have.

remdog
01-17-2007, 07:01 PM
Obviously some of them won't be on the 25-man, because if they all were, then there'd only be three spots left for Griffey, Dunn, Freel, Denorfia, Encarnacion, Arroyo, Harang, and Coffey.

So then the question becomes, "why did we draft Rule V's like Burton, who we can't expect to have a roster spot for, why did we give major league contracts to guys like Moeller if we have no spot for them, why did we make waiver claims on guys like Livingston, who may not have options, why are we releasing guys like Olmedo and then turning around and putting guys like Keppinger on the roster, etc., etc.?"

Out with LaRue, in with Moeller. Out with Olmedo, in with Keppinger. "The Plan" appears to hinge on obtaining and/or extending an unending list of crappy players with no upside who are nickel and diming the payroll to death and taking up twentyish roster spots instead of three or four.

It's a little frustrating, particularly when I feel that this team could have pushed itself into contention during this offseason, but instead has neither improved itself, nor started to rebuild. I just don't understand why Wayne thinks that whatever it is that he is doing is going to help this team in short term or in the long term.

Redsland, this is Rem. We've got to talk, big guy (shaking head). I love your stuff, I really do but, seriously, you've got to stop. You're being too logical, you're useing too much common sense. I don't think this board is built to take that kind of approach. This is a 'wait-and see' board. We'll 'w&s' if the cheap geezers can get it done this year. Then we'll 'w&s' if the prospects brought in during the trading-deadline day massacre will get it done. Then we'll 'w&s' to see if the rebuilding phase will make us contenders in the next decade and then we'll 'w&s' if....Well, you get the idea.

Like you, I've thought that the Reds have a chance to win this division even though they are currently, as constituted, a pretty crappy team. But, they play in a very crappy division so, contrary to my usual approach, I see this as THE ONE YEAR that you pick your spot, sac up and role the dice to win. If it doesn't work, next year you rewrite the game plan. (shrug)

Personally, I would have gone after one starting pitcher that could make a difference---one starting pitcher that would give you the pitching depth that no one else in this division has. That's your edge, that's your opportunity. If it was $18M to Zito, so be it. That's less than the Reds have spent on the various pieces of flotsam that you've chronicled so well. One solid third starter and I'd be willing to go to war with about 20 of the players that ended the season last year with the Reds. The additional four could be culled from the auditions the Reds will be holding next month at ST.

Alas, I fear that you (as well as a few other hardy souls here) will continue to be misunderstood. You'll be portrayed as a 'nay-sayer', negative, not a 'true Reds fan' when all you are doing is trying to light the path with common sense and logic. (Sigh).

Well, I'm glad we had this little talk....Be strong.

Rem

remdog
01-17-2007, 07:07 PM
Spike-

With all due respect, what you are describing is like going to the store to buy a lot of spices for the upcoming BBQ and simply hoping that a hunk of steak will fall out of the sky and hit you in the grill.

In short---ain't gonna' happen.

Rem

Spike
01-17-2007, 07:16 PM
Spike-

With all due respect, what you are describing is like going to the store to buy a lot of spices for the upcoming BBQ and simply hoping that a hunk of steak will fall out of the sky and hit you in the grill.

In short---ain't gonna' happen.

Rem


Yeah, but if that steak breaks the through those clouds, and the spices ain't ready. Mama ain't happy!

All's I'm saying then is there might be chicken in July!

(By the way, anybody know how to resurface old posts so I can tell Rem I got hit in the head with a side of beef first day of Spring Training?)

remdog
01-17-2007, 07:41 PM
(By the way, anybody know how to resurface old posts so I can tell Rem I got hit in the head with a side of beef first day of Spring Training?)

Just tell me your wife promised not to do it again I'll be fine with that. :evil:

Rem

mth123
01-17-2007, 07:44 PM
Obviously some of them won't be on the 25-man, because if they all were, then there'd only be three spots left for Griffey, Dunn, Freel, Denorfia, Encarnacion, Arroyo, Harang, and Coffey.

So then the question becomes, "why did we draft Rule V's like Burton, who we can't expect to have a roster spot for, why did we give major league contracts to guys like Moeller if we have no spot for them, why did we make waiver claims on guys like Livingston, who may not have options, why are we releasing guys like Olmedo and then turning around and putting guys like Keppinger on the roster, etc., etc.?"

Out with LaRue, in with Moeller. Out with Olmedo, in with Keppinger. "The Plan" appears to hinge on obtaining and/or extending an unending list of crappy players with no upside who are nickel and diming the payroll to death and taking up twentyish roster spots instead of three or four.

It's a little frustrating, particularly when I feel that this team could have pushed itself into contention during this offseason, but instead has neither improved itself, nor started to rebuild. I just don't understand why Wayne thinks that whatever it is that he is doing is going to help this team in short term or in the long term.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Ltlabner
01-17-2007, 07:55 PM
You're being too logical, you're useing too much common sense. I don't think this board is built to take that kind of approach.

Blanket statements are fun!

WMR
01-17-2007, 09:52 PM
Blanket statements are fun!

A spade is a spade.