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reds44
01-15-2007, 02:15 PM
Ross signs

The Reds signed David Ross to a two-year deal today, avoiding arbitration with the catcher.

The team also reached a minor league deal with Paul Wilson, who was also invited to major league camp.

Aaron Harang and Kyle Lohse are still arbitration eligible, and tomorrow (Tuesday) is the day for players and teams to exchange numbers.
-Marc's Blog

Heath
01-15-2007, 02:16 PM
Expected. Moving on.

westofyou
01-15-2007, 02:27 PM
Paul Wilson starring in the Film, "The Guest Who Wouldn't Leave" or "How to rehab for a living and still make bank"

Johnny Footstool
01-15-2007, 02:36 PM
Hopefully, the minor league deal Wilson signed is for coaching, not actually pitching.

Chip R
01-15-2007, 02:49 PM
We just found our 5th starter. :(

Heath
01-15-2007, 02:51 PM
We just found our 5th starter. :(

If Brandon Claussen has a Wang Chung Fastball, I guess Paul Wilson has a Jim Croce slider.

KronoRed
01-15-2007, 04:15 PM
Come on, Wilson was done 2 years ago..let it go Reds.

Mainspark
01-15-2007, 04:42 PM
Salary figures per AP...

Ross and Reds agree to $4.5 million, 2-year deal

CINCINNATI (AP) Catcher David Ross and the Cincinnati Reds agreed Monday to a $4.5 million, two-year contract, a deal that includes a team option for 2009.
The 29-year-old Ross was acquired from San Diego last year during spring training and became the starter. With 21 home runs in 90 games, he ranked third among NL catchers.
Ross, who made $500,000 last year, gets $1.6 million this year and $2,525,000 in 2008. The Reds have a $3.5 million option for 2009 with a $375,000 buyout.
Right-handers Aaron Harang and Kyle Lohse also filed for arbitration last week and are set to swap proposed salaries with the Reds on Tuesday.
Cincinnati also agreed to a minor league contract with pitcher Paul Wilson, who was invited to spring training. The 33-year-old right-hander went 11-6 with a 4.36 ERA in 29 games and led the team in wins with 11, but he was limited to nine starts in 2005 and had shoulder surgery that June. He was 1-3 with a 4.50 ERA in four minor league starts last year during a rehabilitation assignment.

Red in Chicago
01-15-2007, 05:05 PM
Salary figures per AP...

Ross and Reds agree to $4.5 million, 2-year deal

CINCINNATI (AP) Catcher David Ross and the Cincinnati Reds agreed Monday to a $4.5 million, two-year contract, a deal that includes a team option for 2009.
The 29-year-old Ross was acquired from San Diego last year during spring training and became the starter. With 21 home runs in 90 games, he ranked third among NL catchers.
Ross, who made $500,000 last year, gets $1.6 million this year and $2,525,000 in 2008. The Reds have a $3.5 million option for 2009 with a $375,000 buyout.
Right-handers Aaron Harang and Kyle Lohse also filed for arbitration last week and are set to swap proposed salaries with the Reds on Tuesday.
Cincinnati also agreed to a minor league contract with pitcher Paul Wilson, who was invited to spring training. The 33-year-old right-hander went 11-6 with a 4.36 ERA in 29 games and led the team in wins with 11, but he was limited to nine starts in 2005 and had shoulder surgery that June. He was 1-3 with a 4.50 ERA in four minor league starts last year during a rehabilitation assignment.


Doesn't it seem like he's at least 43:laugh:

KoryMac5
01-15-2007, 05:23 PM
I feel that the Ross deal is a good one even if he does come back to earth this season. Why does Wayne always have to counter one good move with one not so good move though.

Caveat Emperor
01-15-2007, 06:18 PM
I feel that the Ross deal is a good one even if he does come back to earth this season. Why does Wayne always have to counter one good move with one not so good move though.

Avoiding arbitration is good, but a 1 year deal would make him easier to move if he starts the season hot again.

I'm kinda "eh..." on David Ross. It's pretty much universally known that he's going to have a drop-off, but nobody knows for sure if it'll be to a passable offensive level or back down to the "should he really even be in the majors" level that he was prior to last year. Given that level of unkown, I'm not certain a multi-year deal was the smartest move.

The dollars might not be sky high, but this is another deal that nickles and dimes the Reds towards a payroll ceiling that it looks like they'll reach without any marked improvement in the club.

Blimpie
01-15-2007, 06:34 PM
We just found our 5th starter. :(Does anyone know Pete Harnish's cell phone number?

edabbs44
01-15-2007, 06:44 PM
Avoiding arbitration is good, but a 1 year deal would make him easier to move if he starts the season hot again.

I'm kinda "eh..." on David Ross. It's pretty much universally known that he's going to have a drop-off, but nobody knows for sure if it'll be to a passable offensive level or back down to the "should he really even be in the majors" level that he was prior to last year. Given that level of unkown, I'm not certain a multi-year deal was the smartest move.

The dollars might not be sky high, but this is another deal that nickles and dimes the Reds towards a payroll ceiling that it looks like they'll reach without any marked improvement in the club.

Yep...his second half was kind of bad in '06. I also think a one-year deal would have worked better.

Does WK know that one-year deals exist? I wonder if he was really trying to get Cormier to sign a 2 year extension last year after the trade.

deltachi8
01-15-2007, 07:23 PM
In a related story, Paul Wilson underwent Tommy John Surgery, rotator cuff repair and a 3rd finger transplant after signing his deal today. Aparently, Mr. Wilson suffered multiple injuries while placing the pen cap back on the pen used to sign his contract.

Falls City Beer
01-15-2007, 07:24 PM
This team's 2007 theme song should be The Pretenders' "Middle of the Road."

About the only way this team could get more vanilla would be to trade Dunn for Mark Kotsay.

corkedbat
01-15-2007, 07:38 PM
We just found our 5th starter. :(

I was thinking 3rd. :evil:

Nugget
01-15-2007, 08:18 PM
-Marc's Blog

I know it'll take getting used to but I think its Trent's Blog now.

pedro
01-15-2007, 08:27 PM
This team's 2007 theme song should be The Pretenders' "Middle of the Road."

About the only way this team could get more vanilla would be to trade Dunn for Mark Kotsay.


I have a feeling it may be more like "Bad boys get spanked"

Spike
01-15-2007, 09:32 PM
Am I missing something here? Wasn't Paul Wilson's deal a Minor League one? Where is the risk? He either has something in the tank, or he doesn't.

MartyFan
01-16-2007, 12:17 AM
Come on, Wilson was done 2 years ago..let it go Reds.

Two words...Jose Rijo...I know they have little in common other than they are injury plagued Reds players.

johngalt
01-16-2007, 12:18 AM
Am I missing something here? Wasn't Paul Wilson's deal a Minor League one? Where is the risk? He either has something in the tank, or he doesn't.

The risk is just because he's living and breathing and in the system, Crazy Wayne might be tempted to use him. That's more than enough risk for my taste.

paulrichjr
01-16-2007, 12:26 AM
I disagree with 75% of what Wayne does but signing Paul Wilson to a minor league deal is not one of them. Who cares? If he has anything left then great....if not he goes home.

Ron Madden
01-16-2007, 03:52 AM
I disagree with 75% of what Wayne does but signing Paul Wilson to a minor league deal is not one of them. Who cares? If he has anything left then great....if not he goes home.

Time and money wasted could and should be better spent.

Aronchis
01-16-2007, 07:53 AM
Time and money wasted could and should be better spent.

Not the Reds time, but Paul's. This move is respect and nothing more. Why you people are even complaining about it, shows the level of desperation some have reached sadly enough.

The Ross deal was much more interesting to debate.

RFS62
01-16-2007, 08:15 AM
Everyone seems to be expecting Ross to fall off this year.

I don't see it. He's coming into his prime. He got more playing time last year ever and wore down a little in August.

I think it's a great signing.

Ltlabner
01-16-2007, 08:27 AM
Time and money wasted could and should be better spent.

I can't argue with the time portion, but for the small amount of money invested in a minor league deal who exactly do you think we should have spent it on that would make any difference to this team?

membengal
01-16-2007, 08:28 AM
Am I missing something here? Wasn't Paul Wilson's deal a Minor League one? Where is the risk? He either has something in the tank, or he doesn't.

His presence on the club, in any capacity, qualifies as "soul-sucking" at this point. If he makes the big-league mound to toss 74 mph "cheese" at hitters this year, well, that may define low point for me as a fan. Why can't they just move on?

Edited to add: And, given the extended and unfortunate Joe Mays days last summer, I don't trust WK as far as I can throw him to not foist the decrepit Wilson on the club at some point...

Ltlabner
01-16-2007, 08:31 AM
Everyone seems to be expecting Ross to fall off this year.

I don't see it. He's coming into his prime. He got more playing time last year ever and wore down a little in August.

I think it's a great signing.

I agree RFS. And even if he "falls off" from his .932 OPS last year to say .850 I don't see that as a problem. And good point about his age (and that they kept it to a 2 year deal + team option).

redsmetz
01-16-2007, 09:15 AM
His presence on the club, in any capacity, qualifies as "soul-sucking" at this point. If he makes the big-league mound to toss 74 mph "cheese" at hitters this year, well, that may define low point for me as a fan. Why can't they just move on?

Edited to add: And, given the extended and unfortunate Joe Mays days last summer, I don't trust WK as far as I can throw him to not foist the decrepit Wilson on the club at some point...

I think we're kidding ourselves if we think that we'll see a repeat of what we saw last year, as the new management desperately tried to cobbled together an effective pitching staff. We will not see a cheese-throwing Paul Wilson on the mound this year. I think it's very unlikely we'll see Paul Wilson throw for the big club unless he's nearly completely back from the injury. The chances of that are slim, but we'll see how he progresses. I was surprised when I saw his age; I thought he was 4 or 5 years older. This is a no lose proposition, far from "soul-sucking" - oh, such hyperbole! - to see if the guy has anything left in the tank. Odds are again, that it's no, but we'll see.

RedsManRick
01-16-2007, 09:21 AM
Ross had a .203/.325.484 line after the all-star break. Not saying that's what we should expect, but I think he could very easily fall to the .800 line.

Ltlabner
01-16-2007, 09:28 AM
His presence on the club, in any capacity, qualifies as "soul-sucking" at this point. If he makes the big-league mound to toss 74 mph "cheese" at hitters this year, well, that may define low point for me as a fan. Why can't they just move on?

Edited to add: And, given the extended and unfortunate Joe Mays days last summer, I don't trust WK as far as I can throw him to not foist the decrepit Wilson on the club at some point...

If WK was so gung-ho to foist Wilson on the fans to throw "cheese" why didn't he do it last year when (1) Wilson got his speed back up to the low-80's and (2) WK was desperatley throwing various options against the wall. If he was willing to try Mays et al, why did he say no to Wilson?

Why would he say "no thanks" last year but go ahead and make the poorly advised move this year that you don't trust him to avoid?

membengal
01-16-2007, 09:44 AM
Why even give it a moment's glance? Why, Redsmetz, should it ever be an option at any point? You call it slim that he sees the mound. I agree, it's slim. But I would prefer it be NONE. As it stands, it is somewhat more than that now. I just don't see why. There is no good reason for this kind of fetish.

Ltl...same response, because he has made it a possibility by giving him the minor league contract. Remote, but still a possibility. Frankly, it is "soul-sucking", redsmetz, because this kind of thing is NOT what winning organizations do...

Edited to add: I like the Ross signing, though. Like a few others on here, I don't necessarily think his OPS will free fall, and if he can keep it above .800, it's nice having some stability there...

redsmetz
01-16-2007, 09:51 AM
Why even give it a moment's glance? Why, Redsmetz, should it ever be an option at any point? You call it slim that he sees the mound. I agree, it's slim. But I would prefer it be NONE. As it stands, it is somewhat more than that now. I just don't see why. There is no good reason for this kind of fetish.

Ltl...same response, because he has made it a possibility by giving him the minor league contract. Remote, but still a possibility. Frankly, it is "soul-sucking", redsmetz, because this kind of thing is NOT what winning organizations do...

Why? Because sometimes guys do make it back, signed to minor league deals. Given the current state of pitching in MLB, you look at any available breathing pitcher.

I know most everyone here at Redszone is convinced that they know more than the Reds management, but just maybe that's not the case. Yes, history is replete with innumerable pitchers who have finally fallen on the ash heap, but every now and then one makes a comeback.

Wilson isn't going to be holding anybody back contrary to what folks here keep saying. In fact, he's most like still going to be on the DL as the season begins. It's a no lose proposition, regardless of what the naysayers think, IMO.

membengal
01-16-2007, 09:53 AM
I refuse to be drawn in with straw man "you think you know more than Reds management red herring". I am sure I don't. But I refuse to let the fact that I am not in the front office keep me from discussing what the front office does, or be critical of it, if their actions warrant my criticism. I am also sure that organizations that view themselves as something less than a joke are not fooling around with Paul Wilson and a minor league contract as he recovers from his four billionth arm issue..

Ltlabner
01-16-2007, 10:12 AM
Ltl...same response, because he has made it a possibility by giving him the minor league contract. Remote, but still a possibility. Frankly, it is "soul-sucking", redsmetz, because this kind of thing is NOT what winning organizations do...

I too am a bit amazed that they continue to tinker with him. I posted elsewhere that I admire Wilsons tenacity but that they should just give it a rest.

At the same time, I don't see taking a flier on him as tantamount to penciling him in the starting rotation. That means Lizzard, Belisle and Santos all have to be kidnapped for Wilson to jump in the lineup. While I agree that it's highly unlikely he will recover, what if he does and he puts up servacable 5th starter or even bullpen numbers? In todays pitching market that isn't a bad thing is it?

I do dissagree with the idea that "winning orginazations" don't take fliers on injured pitchers. Maybe they don't beat the same drum into the ground like Wilson, but they do take chances on retreads.

registerthis
01-16-2007, 10:17 AM
Wilson must REALLY want to pitch.

westofyou
01-16-2007, 10:21 AM
I posted elsewhere that I admire Wilsons tenacity but that they should just give it a rest.

Wilson is respected across the board in the Reds organization as a the blueprint for what hard work is all about, he's also just about done. Offering the man a ML contract does nothing more then allow him to leave under his own terms when he fails (and he will)

This may look like a crap move on the talent level (because it is) but on the team level and the loyalty level it's a statement to the other players that the Reds feel they owe Paul a chance based on his history in the Reds clubhouse, which hasn't been anything but a positive experience on the personal level.

Fans hate it, players love it and the players are the ones who work under the regime that has to do the firing and hiring and they like it when they're buddies are given a chance.

As long as it doesn't take their chance away.

membengal
01-16-2007, 10:22 AM
Maybe they don't beat the same drum into the ground like Wilson, but they do take chances on retreads.

I bolded the part that has annoyed me the most about this. I don't mind taking a chance on a retread. You are right, that does happen plenty. But taking multiple chances on the same retread? I just don't see the point.

And, yes, a lot would have to go wrong before he would get a shot, but even if it all did go wrong, I just don't see why they would go back down that road...

RFS62
01-16-2007, 10:24 AM
Wilson is respected across the board in the Reds organization as a the blueprint for what hard work is all about, he's also just about done. Offering the man a ML contract does nothing more then allow him to leave under his own terms when he fails (and he will)

This may look like a crap move on the talent level (because it is) but on the team level and the loyalty level it's a statement to the other players that the Reds feel they owe Paul a chance based on his history in the Reds clubhouse, which hasn't been anything but a positive experience on the personal level.

Fans hate it, players love it and the players are the ones who work under the regime that has to do the firing and hiring and they like it when they're buddies are given a chance.

As long as it doesn't take their chance away.



Killer post.

:beerme:

kbrake
01-16-2007, 10:37 AM
Wilson is respected across the board in the Reds organization as a the blueprint for what hard work is all about, he's also just about done. Offering the man a ML contract does nothing more then allow him to leave under his own terms when he fails (and he will)

This may look like a crap move on the talent level (because it is) but on the team level and the loyalty level it's a statement to the other players that the Reds feel they owe Paul a chance based on his history in the Reds clubhouse, which hasn't been anything but a positive experience on the personal level.

Fans hate it, players love it and the players are the ones who work under the regime that has to do the firing and hiring and they like it when they're buddies are given a chance.

As long as it doesn't take their chance away.

Very nice.

membengal
01-16-2007, 10:41 AM
So...give Wilson a spot as a roving instructor etc. then. Let the players see hard work rewarded with an afterlife in the organization. But, please, stop the senseless flirtation with a pitching corpse...

westofyou
01-16-2007, 10:43 AM
So...give Wilson a spot as a roving instructor etc. then. Let the players see hard work rewarded with an afterlife in the organization. But, please, stop the senseless flirtation with a pitching corpse...

Sometimes things play themselves out

http://www.wcpo.com/news/2005/local/02/23/noon/rijoa.jpg

membengal
01-16-2007, 10:45 AM
Sometimes things play themselves out

http://www.wcpo.com/news/2005/local/02/23/noon/rijoa.jpg


Jose earned the twelve billion chances he got. Talk about earning a repository of good faith with a fan base and a front office.

No offense to Paul Wilson, but he ain't Jose...

dfs
01-16-2007, 10:46 AM
Ross had a .203/.325.484 line after the all-star break. Not saying that's what we should expect, but I think he could very easily fall to the .800 line.

There were only 5 other catchers in MLB who got 300 at bats and put up an OPS above 800. Lower the AB threshold to 100 and you still only have 12 guys that did that.

If he does that and the team feels he does well enough in the field, he's not a problem. Certainly not at that salary.

westofyou
01-16-2007, 10:48 AM
Jose earned the twelve billion chances he got. Talk about earning a repository of good faith with a fan base and a front office.

No offense to Paul Wilson, but he ain't Jose...

Maybe in 1995, by 2001 it was a joke.


YEAR TEAM AGE W L PCT G GS CG SV GF IP H R ER BB SO ERA RSAA
1995 Reds 30 5 4 .556 14 14 0 0 0 69 76 33 32 22 62 4.17 -1
2001 Reds 36 0 0 13 0 0 0 4 17 19 6 4 9 12 2.12 4
2002 Reds 37 5 4 .556 31 9 0 0 6 77 89 48 44 20 38 5.14 -6

membengal
01-16-2007, 10:49 AM
My point was, Jose at his best earned the sad ending. Wilson doesn't have that same reserve to draw on...

westofyou
01-16-2007, 10:56 AM
My point was, Jose at his best earned the sad ending. Wilson doesn't have that same reserve to draw on...

Through the lens of the fan yes, but the working organization is the folks that have Mr. Red on their checks and in their eyes Paul Wilson and Jose Rijo are both the same once their arms fall off. That's the teammate aspect of it, we can't touch it, quantify it or understand the implications that it causes whether it happens or not.

Roy Tucker
01-16-2007, 11:04 AM
I'm OK with the Wilson signing from an organizational loyalty viewpoint. I have grave doubts as to whether or not his arm is anywhere near MLB-sound, but Wilson has been a stand-up guy for the team so OK.

2 caveats though...

- Make a decision fairly quickly in ST. I'll cease to be OK with this signing if he pitches at his 2006 level and the Reds waste a lot of ST cycles on him.
- Don't let him hit against Kyle Farnsworth.

Johnny Footstool
01-16-2007, 11:04 AM
There were only 5 other catchers in MLB who got 300 at bats and put up an OPS above 800. Lower the AB threshold to 100 and you still only have 12 guys that did that.

If he does that and the team feels he does well enough in the field, he's not a problem. Certainly not at that salary.

Exactly.

Jason LaRue put up an .800 OPS one time only.

$2-3 million a year is a great bargain for a catcher who can hit.

Cyclone792
01-16-2007, 11:08 AM
Ross had a .203/.325.484 line after the all-star break. Not saying that's what we should expect, but I think he could very easily fall to the .800 line.

The little cruel Reds fan deep inside me would find that type of batting line a bit hilarious, especially when factoring in Ross' strikeout rates that are just slightly below Adam Dunn's strikeout rates. Not that I think Ross will duplicate those types of extreme power numbers anyway - that's an IsoP higher than Dunn's career average - but I guess it still may be possible. Still, I wouldn't be able to help myself from laughing at the reactions of most Reds fans to a strikeout prone .200 batting average in the lineup two outta three games that's not named Adam Dunn.

Seriously, David Ross ... give us an .800 OPS next season with a .200 batting average. I can't wait to see the torches and pitchforks crowd beating down the doors of GABP.

TRF
01-16-2007, 11:10 AM
Maybe in 1995, by 2001 it was a joke.


YEAR TEAM AGE W L PCT G GS CG SV GF IP H R ER BB SO ERA RSAA
1995 Reds 30 5 4 .556 14 14 0 0 0 69 76 33 32 22 62 4.17 -1
2001 Reds 36 0 0 13 0 0 0 4 17 19 6 4 9 12 2.12 4
2002 Reds 37 5 4 .556 31 9 0 0 6 77 89 48 44 20 38 5.14 -6

At 37 years of age, after having an arm attached by sheer will, he was still better than Milton and Ortiz in 2005.

How monumentally sad is that?

vaticanplum
01-16-2007, 01:40 PM
Everyone seems to be expecting Ross to fall off this year.

I don't see it. He's coming into his prime. He got more playing time last year ever and wore down a little in August.

I think it's a great signing.

While I don't entirely agree with this (I do expect a dropoff from Ross this year, maybe not as drastic as some expect), I do question Ross as the trade bait that some people have been believing he was. He's a good fit for this park. Not every team would be able to use him as an offensive asset, and nobody's going to be clamoring for his defense.

LoganBuck
01-16-2007, 03:29 PM
No one seems to give Ross any leeway for the injured foot he was nursing through August and September. Why not? Narron didn't harp on it, but I remember it being mentioned by the beat writers with Marty, and by Ross himself near the end of the season as really impacting his swing.

NJReds
01-16-2007, 04:23 PM
According to the Post blog, Lohse has signed a one-year deal, avoiding arbitration.

puca
01-16-2007, 04:40 PM
No one seems to give Ross any leeway for the injured foot he was nursing through August and September. Why not? Narron didn't harp on it, but I remember it being mentioned by the beat writers with Marty, and by Ross himself near the end of the season as really impacting his swing.

And others don't seem to acknowledge the fact that in over 1500 minor league plate appearances David Ross' OPS was a pedestrian .782. Which coincidently enough is exactly the same as his career major league OPS even after the aberration that was 2006.

Could David Ross have found himself as a hitter at age 29? Possible, but I wouldn't bet 4.5 million dollars on it.

Falls City Beer
01-16-2007, 04:44 PM
And others don't seem to acknowledge the fact that in over 1500 minor league plate appearances David Ross' OPS was a pedestrian .782. Which coincidently enough is exactly the same as his career major league OPS even after the aberration that was 2006.

Could David Ross have found himself as a hitter at age 29? Possible, but I wouldn't bet 4.5 million dollars on it.

If Ross can put up a .782 OPS from the catcher position, it's not such a bad contract.

However, if he slips below or around .750 and you consider his highly pedestrian defense, it suddenly becomes a far less enticing deal.

Ltlabner
01-16-2007, 04:46 PM
If Ross can put up a .782 OPS from the catcher position, it's not such a bad contract.

However, if he slips below or around .750 and you consider his highly pedestrian defense, it suddenly becomes a far less enticing deal.

You raise an interesting point FCB. What sort of OPS from Ross would people be happy with? .770 and higher? Obviously we want 1.10 for the rest of his life, but realistically, what could he put up and people would be happy?

Falls City Beer
01-16-2007, 04:47 PM
You raise an interesting point FCB. What sort of OPS from Ross would people be happy with? .770 and higher? Obviously we want 1.10 for the rest of his life, but realistically, what could he put up and people would be happy?

I'd say .775 and above from the catcher's spot is an asset.

westofyou
01-16-2007, 04:59 PM
I'd say .775 and above from the catcher's spot is an asset.

since 2000, 400 PA's to play


NATIONAL LEAGUE
SEASON
2000-2006
C
AT BATS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
AGE displayed only--not a sorting criteria

OPS YEAR OPS AB AGE
1 Javier Lopez 2003 1.065 457 32
2 Mike Piazza 2000 1.012 482 31
3 Brian McCann 2006 .961 442 22
4 Mike Piazza 2001 .957 503 32
5 Paul Lo Duca 2001 .917 460 29
6 Mike Piazza 2002 .903 478 33
7 Mitch Meluskey 2000 .888 337 26
8 Michael Barrett 2006 .885 375 29
9 Jason Kendall 2000 .882 579 26
10 Mike Piazza 2006 .843 399 37
11 Ivan Rodriguez 2003 .843 511 31
12 Johnny Estrada 2004 .828 462 28
13 Michael Barrett 2004 .826 456 27
14 Mike Lieberthal 2003 .825 508 31
15 Michael Barrett 2005 .824 424 28
16 Mike Lieberthal 2000 .822 389 28
17 Javier Lopez 2000 .822 481 29
18 Ramon Hernandez 2004 .818 384 28
19 Jason Kendall 2003 .815 587 29
20 Jason LaRue 2005 .806 361 31
21 Mike Lieberthal 2002 .792 476 30
22 Russ Martin 2006 .792 415 23
23 Jason Kendall 2004 .789 574 30
24 Mike Lieberthal 2004 .783 476 32
25 Paul Lo Duca 2006 .783 512 34
26 Mike Piazza 2005 .778 398 36
27 Charles Johnson 2003 .775 356 31

IslandRed
01-16-2007, 05:46 PM
For what it's worth, looking at NL catchers with 400+ PAs last year, .763 was the OPS midpoint of the 10 who met that standard. Looking at the last five years, .750 is about what would be considered typical for a catcher logging the majority of his team's plate appearances. And it probably wouldn't be cheap, either in dollars or trading chips, to acquire one projected to be north of that mark for the next two years. So let's hope Ross maintains at least that level of performance.

Falls City Beer
01-16-2007, 06:39 PM
Not that it matters all that much, but why 400 plate appearances?

jojo
01-16-2007, 06:48 PM
Not that it matters all that much, but why 400 plate appearances?


sample size issues

Falls City Beer
01-16-2007, 06:53 PM
sample size issues

I understand that, but why not 375? How much does the picture open up with 375, say?

jojo
01-16-2007, 07:00 PM
I understand that, but why not 375? How much does the picture open up with 375, say?

yes, but the square root of 400 is a whole number....

Falls City Beer
01-16-2007, 07:07 PM
yes, but the square root of 400 is a whole number....

True. Like I said, it's not a huge deal--just wondered why the frame was somewhat restrictive.

westofyou
01-16-2007, 07:20 PM
Not that it matters all that much, but why 400 plate appearances?

Because it touches beyond the realm of being a backup. It represents about 58% of the total trips to a plate by a catcher for the Reds in 2006 and over 50% for every team in the NL aside from the Padres.


PLATE APPEARANCES PA
1 Padres 838
2 Nationals 761
3 Mets 737
4 Reds 727
5 Cubs 710
6 Astros 689
7 Braves 687
8 Dodgers 679
9 Diamondbacks 673
10 Phillies 670
11 Giants 663
12 Rockies 653
13 Marlins 642
14 Cardinals 640
15 Brewers 638
16 Pirates 611

westofyou
01-16-2007, 07:26 PM
I understand that, but why not 375? How much does the picture open up with 375, say?

Adds one player (2000 Brent Mayne), 350 ab's adds three more, 325 adds one more after that, 300 doesn't add any. So since 2000 in the NL only 33 catchers out of 98 have had an OPS of .775 or better with at least 300 PA's. That's about 1/3rd of the seasons.

This tells me to not bank on offense from my catcher, and if another brings some latch onto that one for the brief ride.

jojo
01-16-2007, 07:52 PM
Adds one player (2000 Brent Mayne), 350 ab's adds three more, 325 adds one more after that, 300 doesn't add any. So since 2000 in the NL only 33 catchers out of 98 have had an OPS of .775 or better with at least 300 PA's. That's about 1/3rd of the seasons.

This tells me to not bank on offense from my catcher, and if another brings some latch onto that one for the brief ride.

Here's another way to benchmark the position:
2006 major league average at catcher: .268/.326/.413 OPS: .739

only two positions had a lower OPS' than catcher last season:
2B: .738
SS: .735

The defensive spectrum strikes again....

Blimpie
01-18-2007, 08:49 AM
There were only 5 other catchers in MLB who got 300 at bats and put up an OPS above 800. Lower the AB threshold to 100 and you still only have 12 guys that did that.

If he does that and the team feels he does well enough in the field, he's not a problem. Certainly not at that salary.There's the rub. Even if his batting numbers are on par with last year (granted a BIG if), his defense would still give the devil nightmares.

That is, unless, the devil likes dreaming about throws from the outfield skipping under the catcher's shinguards.