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Heath
01-17-2007, 10:00 AM
It's not as "official" as it may seem - but this is the step in the "right" direction.



Griffey willing to give right field a try

Manager Jerry Narron: 'He wants to do what's best for the Cincinnati Reds.

By Hal McCoy
Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 17, 2007

CINCINNATI The expected news is that Ken Griffey Jr. remains on schedule to be ready for spring training. The unexpected news is that right field may be in his future for the Cincinnati Reds.

Griffey and manager Jerry Narron have talked about the possibility of Griffey switching to right field and Griffey is open-minded about the possibility.

"Griffey is very open to doing what he can do to be on the field more," Narron said. "He realizes that Kirby Puckett moved (to right field) and that Cal Ripken, Jr. moved to third base.

"He wants to do what is best for the Cincinnati Reds," Narron added. "He realizes that to be on the field more he has to change positions."

Before moving, Griffey wants to be certain somebody better can play center field, the position Griffey has played since signing his first major-league contract in 1987.

Narron probably will play Ryan Freel and others in center and have Griffey play some right field the first couple weeks of spring training.

Said Narron, "If we started spring training tomorrow, Griffey would be in center field, but right field in spring training is a possibility.

"He was deeply disappointed that he missed September (dislocated toe on his right foot) in that we came so close and he wasn't able to help," Narron added. "I don't like to talk about what my players and I talk about, but I was very pleased with the way he sounded when we talked about this some late last year."

When the Reds report in mid-February, Griffey will be ready to play, according to team medical director Dr. Tim Kremchek.

X-rays showed that Griffey's broken left hand is healing as anticipated, and the hard cast was removed and replaced by a removable splint that the Reds' outfielder will wear for two weeks.

Griffey broke his hand three weeks ago while playing with his son, Trey, at their Florida home.

"It truly was nothing sinister," said Griffey's Cincinnati-based agent, Brian Goldberg. "It was a family thing, playing in the backyard with his kids and has nothing to do with a dirt bike. He wants to tell all the beat writers at one time what happened."

Contact this reporter at hmccoy@DaytonDailyNews.com.

Well? IMO - I'll believe it when I see Griffey-RF in the box score on Opening Day.

deltachi8
01-17-2007, 10:11 AM
Why does Griffey, with all due respect to him, get to decide if someone is better than him in CF?

Shaknb8k
01-17-2007, 10:14 AM
I personally think this is the difference between maybe 10 more wins or losses. If Griffey moves to RF I will feel a lot more confident about the defense they are putting behind the pitchers. World Griffey be considered an above avg. defensive RF or not?

RedsManRick
01-17-2007, 10:24 AM
"Griffey is very open to doing what he can do to be on the field more," Narron said. "He realizes that Kirby Puckett moved (to right field) and that Cal Ripken, Jr. moved to third base.

"He wants to do what is best for the Cincinnati Reds," Narron added. "He realizes that to be on the field more he has to change positions."

That makes me happy.


Before moving, Griffey wants to be certain somebody better can play center field, the position Griffey has played since signing his first major-league contract in 1987.

This makes me sad. Was he watching Chris Denorfia last September?

Roy Tucker
01-17-2007, 10:24 AM
This is a step in the right direction. And good.

SunDeck
01-17-2007, 10:26 AM
Ryan Freel playing CF? Who plays the other 45 games that he misses?

redsfan30
01-17-2007, 10:27 AM
Definetly is an interesting article, that's for sure.

BCubb2003
01-17-2007, 10:31 AM
4. Bargaining stage.

NJReds
01-17-2007, 10:47 AM
It looks like he's being moved to RF, but that the organization is giving Griffey respect by making it look like it was a mutual decision. If they get this over and done with in ST, then it won't be a distraction all season.

If for some reason they put him out in CF after sending out all of these signals that he's going to move, then I can see a lot of distraction for the team this season.

westofyou
01-17-2007, 10:57 AM
Why does Griffey, with all due respect to him, get to decide if someone is better than him in CF?

Same reason Joe Dimaggio was, because he's a superstar.

The Case wanted Dimaggio to play 1st or RF and had a hell of a time getting him to switch, mostly because he was the new manager and he felt he didn't have the cache to ask him to do it.

Lasted one game, here's to this one being successful.



http://www.deadballart.com/redszone/dima.gif

MartyFan
01-17-2007, 10:58 AM
There are plenty of HOF players who balk at moving to another position. I read the fact that Junior is open to it means that he supports Narron, Special K and Mr. C and the direction the team is going.

I now look for the team to trade for a CF.

Are there any CF FA's available?

Is Deno the answer?

I don't know can someone help me out, please?

M2
01-17-2007, 10:59 AM
4. Bargaining stage.

Bingo

dfs
01-17-2007, 11:01 AM
I'm thrilled to read this. Just thrilled.


Ryan Freel playing CF? Who plays the other 45 games that he misses?

Denorfia.

My guess is that despite the wintertime happy-talk about Freel playing in center that by June Denorfia will be the regular centerfielder. They are too thin in the infield and will need Freel there. The only other guy on most projected 25 man rosters that can cover third or second is Castro and Juan has proven to be fairly brittle whenever he gets PT. The only other guy on the 40 man roster that's probably ready to see 100 at bats in those positions is the guy they just got from the Royals, Keppinger.

Denorfia is as ready as he will ever be. They need to start skimming off his cheap years.

Jpup
01-17-2007, 11:05 AM
There are plenty of HOF players who balk at moving to another position. I read the fact that Junior is open to it means that he supports Narron, Special K and Mr. C and the direction the team is going.

I now look for the team to trade for a CF.

Are there any CF FA's available?

Is Deno the answer?

I don't know can someone help me out, please?

Freel is the answer. If he is out, put Deno in there. Ryan Freel deserves the shot IMO.

redsmetz
01-17-2007, 11:11 AM
I continue to think there's more acquisitions in the offing.

Team Clark
01-17-2007, 11:13 AM
Let's see what type of injury scenarios play out in ST before any revelations are made.

MartyFan
01-17-2007, 11:16 AM
I continue to think there's more acquisitions in the offing.

Totally agree!

Before the end of ST we'll have a new CF who is not on the roster now.

RedsManRick
01-17-2007, 11:23 AM
If Krivsky goes out and trades anything of value for a CF when we have two on the 25 man roster already, he will officially be on my crap list.

dfs
01-17-2007, 11:31 AM
If Krivsky goes out and trades anything of value for a CF when we have two on the 25 man roster already, he will officially be on my crap list.

Well put.

FWIW Bubba Crosby is also a better defensive CF than Junior, although it's not clear that his bat will be enough to justify a starting slot. If the team is serious about going with a defensive starting 9, the reds have three guys they should send out there before junior.

GAC
01-17-2007, 11:41 AM
Why does Griffey, with all due respect to him, get to decide if someone is better than him in CF?


You provided the answer - due respect. Griffey is due that considering what he has contributed to the game. And I could care less as long as he is willing to move. Make it amicable.

M2
01-17-2007, 11:46 AM
If Krivsky goes out and trades anything of value for a CF when we have two on the 25 man roster already, he will officially be on my crap list.

Yeah, that one wouldn't make much sense. What he'd have to pay for a CF who can hit more than Freel or Deno would, best case, be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

RedsBaron
01-17-2007, 11:48 AM
Same reason Joe Dimaggio was, because he's a superstar.

The Case wanted Dimaggio to play 1st or RF and had a hell of a time getting him to switch, mostly because he was the new manager and he felt he didn't have the cache to ask him to do it.

Lasted one game, here's to this one being successful.



http://www.deadballart.com/redszone/dima.gif

While Stengel wasn't able to convince DiMaggio to stay at firstbase and while DiMaggio, who had a great belief in his own importance, deeply resented Stengel making the switch for one game, the move did seem to light a fire under DiMaggio in 1950. The news article indicates that as of July 2 DiMaggio's batting average was still "hovering around" .260. By the time the 1950 season was over, DiMaggio had a .301 average, with 32 HRs, third in the AL, and 122 RBI, 5th in the AL. He lead the AL in slugging at .585 and was second in OPS at .979. DiMaggio was 5th in runs scored with 114, and fourth in triples with 10. Oh yeah, the Yankees won another pennant and swept the Phillies in the World Series.
I wish a move of Griffey will be as successful.

Puffy
01-17-2007, 11:52 AM
Yeah, that one wouldn't make much sense. What he'd have to pay for a CF who can hit more than Freel or Deno would, best case, be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

*cough* Coco Crisp *cough*

RFS62
01-17-2007, 11:58 AM
This good news. And not unexpected.

Let it run its course.

BRM
01-17-2007, 12:06 PM
Said Narron, "If we started spring training tomorrow, Griffey would be in center field, but right field in spring training is a possibility.

So, based on the in-house options, Junior is still Jerry's centerfielder? I'm not sure that's good news.

IslandRed
01-17-2007, 12:19 PM
My guess is that despite the wintertime happy-talk about Freel playing in center that by June Denorfia will be the regular centerfielder. They are too thin in the infield and will need Freel there.

I'd be surprised. Just my opinion, but I think Freel's pretty much done as an infielder, although his ability to move around in double switches or emergencies is helpful. His bat certainly compares well to the typical second baseman, so the total disinterest the current front office displays in considering him for the full-time second-base job tells me they don't think he's really any good there defensively.

IslandRed
01-17-2007, 12:24 PM
If Krivsky goes out and trades anything of value for a CF when we have two on the 25 man roster already, he will officially be on my crap list.

Doesn't seem to make much sense, but my guess is this would only happen in conjunction with a Freel trade.

Roy Tucker
01-17-2007, 12:40 PM
So, based on the in-house options, Junior is still Jerry's centerfielder? I'm not sure that's good news.

Diplomatic political-speak. All part of the dance that will have to happen.

Junior is a good guy and all that, but he does have a superstar's ego. He has to be wined and dined, ego massaged, face-saved, etc etc to do this shift.

If I read the tea leaves correctly, this is a huge statement for Junior to make. I just hope it the dance goes according to protocol and the team and Junior all wind up in a happy place.

dsmith421
01-17-2007, 12:47 PM
Bubba Crosby is also a better defensive CF than Junior, although it's not clear that his bat will be enough to justify a starting slot.

I'd say it's abundantly clear that Bubba Crosby can't hit major league pitching to save his life.

Denorfia should play center 140 times this year. Let's see if the kid has what it takes.

Wheelhouse
01-17-2007, 01:04 PM
That makes me happy.



This makes me sad. Was he watching Chris Denorfia last September?

Denorfia madde some nice plays, also botched a few. In fact, it seemed like a botched defensive play was what ended "Denorfia's time" in Narron's mind and got him benched for a while. Freel on the other hand is one of the best outfielders in the league. I saw him win five games with his glove.

KronoRed
01-17-2007, 01:10 PM
If JR starts the year in another spot on the field other then CF I'll eat my hat..again ;)

Redsland
01-17-2007, 01:18 PM
4. Bargaining stage.
:laugh:



Denorfia madde some nice plays, also botched a few. In fact, it seemed like a botched defensive play was what ended "Denorfia's time" in Narron's mind and got him benched for a while.
Wasn't Denorfia named the AAA OF of the year or something? If so, he's plenty good enough.

Wheelhouse
01-17-2007, 01:22 PM
Maybe he was, but if Freel played CF regularly he would be hot in the running for a Gold Glove. Not that Denorfia's bad--but Freel is better.

BRM
01-17-2007, 01:23 PM
Wasn't Denorfia named the AAA OF of the year or something? If so, he's plenty good enough.

Best defensive outfielder in AAA I think. Deno and Freel are both clearly better options than Junior, at least defensively.

M2
01-17-2007, 01:25 PM
Maybe he was, but if Freel played CF regularly he would be hot in the running for a Gold Glove. Not that Denorfia's bad--but Freel is better.

Freel strikes me as Lenny Dykstraesque in CF - hard-working and willing to throw himself around, but a decided notch below gliders who can chew up massive amounts of real estate.

dsmith421
01-17-2007, 01:29 PM
Freel strikes me as Lenny Dykstraesque in CF - hard-working and willing to throw himself around, but a decided notch below gliders who can chew up massive amounts of real estate.

Agree, I was continuously impressed with Denorfia's anticipation and movement.

I also think it would show an impressive commitment to the future if the Reds were to give Denorfia a full season to show his stuff and just leave him the heck alone.

M2
01-17-2007, 01:33 PM
Diplomatic political-speak. All part of the dance that will have to happen.

Junior is a good guy and all that, but he does have a superstar's ego. He has to be wined and dined, ego massaged, face-saved, etc etc to do this shift.

If I read the tea leaves correctly, this is a huge statement for Junior to make. I just hope it the dance goes according to protocol and the team and Junior all wind up in a happy place.

Hopefully you're right, but the Reds will need a Plan B in case Jr. isn't "convinced" someone else should else should play CF -- something involving telling him that he's moving whether he's convinced or not.

Every carrot needs a stick.

vaticanplum
01-17-2007, 02:19 PM
I'd say it's abundantly clear that Bubba Crosby can't hit major league pitching to save his life.

Denorfia should play center 140 times this year. Let's see if the kid has what it takes.

I know that Crosby is the punching bag du jour on this board, and I agree that he should be a starter as little as possible. But I have watched him play an awful lot, and it is my firm opinion that if he ends up on the 25-man at any point he's going to be invaluable as a late-game pinch runner and defensive replacement. Is this the kind of player you build your roster around? Of course not. But *if* (and I know it's a big if) this team is contending in any way come September and the 40-man, this is the kind of thing that makes a big difference on a team. Until then, he's decent mid-game insurance against the wee bit injury-prone Junior and Freel.

TRF
01-17-2007, 02:21 PM
The comparison to Dykstra is pretty good, If you ignore Freel's skillset, and just look at his mindset.

Freel could outrun Dykstra backwards.

Cyclone792
01-17-2007, 02:32 PM
Maybe he was, but if Freel played CF regularly he would be hot in the running for a Gold Glove. Not that Denorfia's bad--but Freel is better.

You have to see them play in person to appreciate Denorfia and also understand Freel.

Freel's an above average defensive center fielder, and he's willing to dive for everything that's within his reach. Those are the plays people remember, and it's always the end of said plays that get the highlights. The problem is Freel's initial jump on balls is actually rather lousy, and the initial jump is something you'll rarely see on TV yet it's plainly visible from the box seats. His biggest problem is immediately judging the depth of a fly ball. He'll break in on balls that'll go over his head, and he'll break back on balls that wouldn't reach his position. One result of those bad jumps is some of the diving catches Freel makes wouldn't have required a diving catch if he had read the ball correctly off the bat initially. Luckily, Freel has the speed to oftentimes make up for his poor first read, though sometimes his bad jump has cost him.

Denorfia gets a much better jump on balls in the outfield than Freel, and he'll also take a better direct line to the spot on the field he has to be at to make the catch. He is the exact blueprint any team would want in a center fielder defensively, because he does everything very well defensively. The downside is if you're stuck watching him on television, you're robbed of seeing half of what makes Denorfia a great center fielder since you'll never see his first jump, where he was at in center when the bat made contact with the ball, or his full, direct line to the ball; you'll only see the end of the play as he's gliding over to make what looks like an easy grab.

vaticanplum
01-17-2007, 02:41 PM
The problem is Freel's initial jump on balls is actually rather lousy, and the initial jump is something you'll rarely see on TV yet it's plainly visible from the box seats. His biggest problem is immediately judging the depth of a fly ball. He'll break in on balls that'll go over his head, and he'll break back on balls that wouldn't reach his position. One result of those bad jumps is some of the diving catches Freel makes wouldn't have required a diving catch if he had read the ball correctly off the bat initially. Luckily, Freel has the speed to oftentimes make up for his poor first read, though sometimes his bad jump has cost him.

Can I ask a really stupid question (which is actually something I've been wondering about my whole life)?

How much of that is eyesight? How much of that can be taught? It seems to me that this is one of the most elusive qualities of an outfielder. I've been watching outfielders since I was a little kid (thanks, ED) and I think I can judge their abilities better than I can judge almost any other position, so I can tell when a player is judging the ball well and gets a good jump on it...but WHY do some do it and some don't?

My instinct is that a lot of it is just practice: the more balls you see, the better a feel you get for them [insert inappropriate comment here]. But some people are good at this from the beginning, and some of them never get better. I don't really see how this can be "taught" in the same way as batting technique or footwork. And environmental factors affect things too, of course...balls are hard to spot in the sun sometimes, but at the same time, I have horrible eyesight and in particular depth perception, and I almost completely lose my sense of the latter more than ten feet in front of me while driving in the dark. Are different players affected differently by the sun and the dark?

Any insight, maybe from former outfielders?

Chip R
01-17-2007, 02:46 PM
I personally thought Deno was a better RF than Kearns. He may not have Kearns' arm but he seemed to get to the ball better than Kearns. Before I saw him and in between all the Deno=Chuck Norris jokes, people on here said he has great closing speed. When I watched him play that's what I noticed. It's like Cyclone said, he just glides over to make the easy grab. I think when Austin bulked up, he lost a step or two. Mind you, I'd take the whole Kearns package over a lot of RFers but Deno looked pretty good out there.

RFS62
01-17-2007, 02:55 PM
How much of that is eyesight? How much of that can be taught? It seems to me that this is one of the most elusive qualities of an outfielder. I've been watching outfielders since I was a little kid (thanks, ED) and I think I can judge their abilities better than I can judge almost any other position, so I can tell when a player is judging the ball well and gets a good jump on it...but WHY do some do it and some don't?

My instinct is that a lot of it is just practice: the more balls you see, the better a feel you get for them [insert inappropriate comment here]. But some people are good at this from the beginning, and some of them never get better. I don't really see how this can be "taught" in the same way as batting technique or footwork. And environmental factors affect things too, of course...balls are hard to spot in the sun sometimes, but at the same time, I have horrible eyesight and in particular depth perception, and I almost completely lose my sense of the latter more than ten feet in front of me while driving in the dark. Are different players affected differently by the sun and the dark?





It's a combination of things. First and foremost, you have to have your "head in the game". That means total focus on the pitch. Players vary in their ability and discipline to do this.

Taking thousands of fly balls is how you hone the skill of reading a ball off the bat. Even then, talent separates the good from the great. Some like Mays, Clemente, and Junior were legendary at it in their prime. The quick first step and accurate assesment of where the ball is going is a primary skill for outfielders.

reds44
01-17-2007, 02:57 PM
Definately a step and a right direction and a good sign. Hopefully he does indeed move to RF.

I love Junior, but he can't play CF anymore.

M2
01-17-2007, 03:00 PM
You have to see them play in person to appreciate Denorfia and also understand Freel.

Freel's an above average defensive center fielder, and he's willing to dive for everything that's within his reach. Those are the plays people remember, and it's always the end of said plays that get the highlights. The problem is Freel's initial jump on balls is actually rather lousy, and the initial jump is something you'll rarely see on TV yet it's plainly visible from the box seats. His biggest problem is immediately judging the depth of a fly ball. He'll break in on balls that'll go over his head, and he'll break back on balls that wouldn't reach his position. One result of those bad jumps is some of the diving catches Freel makes wouldn't have required a diving catch if he had read the ball correctly off the bat initially. Luckily, Freel has the speed to oftentimes make up for his poor first read, though sometimes his bad jump has cost him.

Denorfia gets a much better jump on balls in the outfield than Freel, and he'll also take a better direct line to the spot on the field he has to be at to make the catch. He is the exact blueprint any team would want in a center fielder defensively, because he does everything very well defensively. The downside is if you're stuck watching him on television, you're robbed of seeing half of what makes Denorfia a great center fielder since you'll never see his first jump, where he was at in center when the bat made contact with the ball, or his full, direct line to the ball; you'll only see the end of the play as he's gliding over to make what looks like an easy grab.

Great assessment.

Deno's break and line to the ball are pretty to watch. Even live I imagine most folks don't notice those things unless they're specifically looking for them. A guy like that can make a moderately difficult play look easy and get no credit for it.

Though you sometimes can see Freel's OF faults on display on TV. Wide shots sometimes catch it, often you'll see him adjust his line as he tracks a ball and I've noticed that he's often still be accelerating when he should already be up to speed (a sure sign or a late or wrong break).

reds44
01-17-2007, 03:04 PM
IMO, Denorfia could be very valuable in CF because oh his defense. However if you put him in RF, his value drops immensly because he has a light bad. He needs to play CF. Denorfia is the 2nd best defender on the team behind Seabass, and would make a HUGE difference in CF.

luvdozer
01-17-2007, 03:39 PM
You provided the answer - due respect. Griffey is due that considering what he has contributed to the game. And I could care less as long as he is willing to move. Make it amicable.

I would go a step further and say that it isnt just respect but good business practice.

Assume you own a company and you have an employee who has talent, but he is in a position where he underperforms. You know that if you move him to another job within the company, he will actually do better, but he has been in this job for years and never inquired about moving. Also, he previously has created oodles of profits for the company in his current position.

You know the employee has to move. Therefore, you have two choices: (1) you can tell him its your company and he will move whether he likes it or not. You then accept a certain level of risk that this employee will become a malcontent and spend his days griping to his fellow employees and otherwise poisoning the company lunch room. (2) you can sit down and talk with the employee; tell him how much he means to the organization and ask him for his help - the company needs him to sacrifice and make this move. If he agrees, then he has ownership of the decision of can't ***** and moan about later.

If you do option #1 first and it works out badly, you cant stop and then try option #2. However, if you try option #2 and it doesnt work, you are always free to use option #1. Option #2 lets the guy save face AND increases his reputation outside the company as a guy who takes on new responsibilities for the good of the company.

Yes, this is a ballclub treating a superstar player with some respect. it is a reasonable and humane way of treating your employees. However, it is ALSO good business.

pedro
01-17-2007, 03:41 PM
good post luvdozer.

RFS62
01-17-2007, 03:44 PM
good post luvdozer.


Yeah, that was outstanding.

:beerme:

Chip R
01-17-2007, 03:48 PM
I like that the Reds are talking to Jr. about this before ST. Like luvdozer said, it's good business as well as respect. However, I'm troubled by Jr.'s stance about moving only if there's a better CF than him.

Cyclone792
01-17-2007, 03:49 PM
Can I ask a really stupid question (which is actually something I've been wondering about my whole life)?

How much of that is eyesight? How much of that can be taught? It seems to me that this is one of the most elusive qualities of an outfielder. I've been watching outfielders since I was a little kid (thanks, ED) and I think I can judge their abilities better than I can judge almost any other position, so I can tell when a player is judging the ball well and gets a good jump on it...but WHY do some do it and some don't?

My instinct is that a lot of it is just practice: the more balls you see, the better a feel you get for them [insert inappropriate comment here]. But some people are good at this from the beginning, and some of them never get better. I don't really see how this can be "taught" in the same way as batting technique or footwork. And environmental factors affect things too, of course...balls are hard to spot in the sun sometimes, but at the same time, I have horrible eyesight and in particular depth perception, and I almost completely lose my sense of the latter more than ten feet in front of me while driving in the dark. Are different players affected differently by the sun and the dark?

Any insight, maybe from former outfielders?

Like RFS said, it's a combination of things, which includes a ton of concentration.

A few helpful tips for outfielders is to watch the action of the hitter's body, watch the action of the hitter's bat, and focus on the strike zone. With a ton of practice and concentration on every pitch, outfielders can gain a better sense where the ball is going off the bat as the hitter swings and makes contact if they're concentrating on the strike zone and the actual hitter simultaneously.

Eyesight probably plays some role in that better eyesight makes it easier to clearly see everything going on at the plate, but that alone shouldn't be the primary difference between getting a good jump or not. Even with great eyesight, concentration and watching the hitter and their bat is vital.

lollipopcurve
01-17-2007, 03:51 PM
good post luvdozer.

me three


Yes, this is a ballclub treating a superstar player with some respect. it is a reasonable and humane way of treating your employees. However, it is ALSO good business.

a people business is not an oxymoron

IslandRed
01-17-2007, 04:01 PM
It's a combination of things. First and foremost, you have to have your "head in the game". That means total focus on the pitch. Players vary in their ability and discipline to do this.

Taking thousands of fly balls is how you hone the skill of reading a ball off the bat. Even then, talent separates the good from the great. Some like Mays, Clemente, and Junior were legendary at it in their prime. The quick first step and accurate assesment of where the ball is going is a primary skill for outfielders.

Very true. Judging fly balls the instant they come off the bat is a skill, and like any skill, players can improve with time and repetitions. But some players just have the knack for it and they're going to be better at it.

MartyFan
01-17-2007, 04:06 PM
If Krivsky goes out and trades anything of value for a CF when we have two on the 25 man roster already, he will officially be on my crap list.

Officially? LOL!

MartyFan
01-17-2007, 04:09 PM
So, based on the in-house options, Junior is still Jerry's centerfielder? I'm not sure that's good news.

And that is why I predict a trade that will bring us an everyday CF during ST.

I personally like Deno out there...Freel is WAY to dangerous to put out there every day plus I really do think he excels as a SuperSub...I have always thought that if Freel were made an everyday player at one position he would get bored.

BRM
01-17-2007, 04:14 PM
And that is why I predict a trade that will bring us an everyday CF during ST.


The only way that makes sense is if Freel and/or Deno gets traded. Otherwise you're trading to fill a need that you don't have.

harangatang
01-17-2007, 04:16 PM
In other news the Reds are expected to hire Jim Beattie as GM. ;)

membengal
01-17-2007, 04:21 PM
Weirdly enough, I could approach something in the neighborhood of actual excitement for the upcoming season if Jr. were to go to RF with grace at this point. To know that I don't have to watch games from the outset in 2007 where balls that would be caught by 99% of the other CFs in the game are falling in or going merrily up the gaps would do a lot to fix some off-season concerns.

dsmith421
01-17-2007, 04:28 PM
But I have watched him play an awful lot, and it is my firm opinion that if he ends up on the 25-man at any point he's going to be invaluable as a late-game pinch runner and defensive replacement.

Crosby's worth as a pinch runner and fielding replacement on the Yankees was likely overrated because the Yankees outfield defense (especially in the Matsui/Bernie/Sheff era) was absolutely atrocious and they had very few guys who could run at all.

We have two center fielders, both of whom field and run better than Crosby ever has. Plus they can hit. Crosby is completely extraneous and having him on the roster is just dangling a carrot in front of Narron to (once again) retard a young player's development at the expense of a veteran mediocrity.

If he's really that valuable to contending teams, trade him to the Mets or something.

deltachi8
01-17-2007, 04:29 PM
You provided the answer - due respect. Griffey is due that considering what he has contributed to the game. And I could care less as long as he is willing to move. Make it amicable.

Yes, he deserves respect and it should be amicable. However, my point is that the team should not leave it to Jr to make the decision.

You sit down with him and go through your reasons why the move is in the best interests of the team. You explain to him how much more valuable he will be in a different defensive position. You explain how his leadership in making the change would be beneficial to the team. You hope that he buys into it, takes ownership of it...but ultimately, a manager has to manage and make the decisions.

Matt700wlw
01-17-2007, 04:40 PM
He's "willing." Great.

Didn't know it was his call...

vaticanplum
01-17-2007, 04:43 PM
Crosby's worth as a pinch runner and fielding replacement on the Yankees was likely overrated because the Yankees outfield defense (especially in the Matsui/Bernie/Sheff era) was absolutely atrocious and they had very few guys who could run at all.

We have two center fielders, both of whom field and run better than Crosby ever has. Plus they can hit. Crosby is completely extraneous and having him on the roster is just dangling a carrot in front of Narron to (once again) retard a young player's development at the expense of a veteran mediocrity.

If he's really that valuable to contending teams, trade him to the Mets or something.

I really don't think there's any danger of Narron playing Crosby before Denorfia, Freel, AND Griffey. I'm talking about very specific situations in which he can contribute. Those situations exist, and contrary to what many on this board believe, I think he was taken on just for those situations. There's merit to having depth on the bench (or any viable bench at all, really, that's not made up entirely of relief pitchers).

Nor am I talking about his skills as he contributed to one specific team. I'm speaking of his abilities and weaknesses empirically.

Ltlabner
01-17-2007, 04:45 PM
That we are even getting rumblings of a Jr move to RF is a good sign, IMO. As several have pointed out this may just be part of the dance that asuages Jr's ego by giving the appearance that it's somehow Jr's choice while behind the sceens Wayne is putting gentle pressure on Jr to make the move.

And from a "there's a conspiricy everywhere" angle, I can see Wayne or one of his minions using Hal McCoy as a vechile to communicate this to the fans without Wayne having to give a press conference to say "Jr might consider a move".

Who's the guy who played CF for the Red Sox in the 1975 world series? Dang...total mental block. I remember the broadcasters talking about how with his long legs he would cover a ton of ground to make hauling in fly balls look deceptivley easy. I'll have to go look that up. But I think that applies to Deno also. He can cover a lot of ground and make most catches look routine. Freel bounces around like a maniac and makes spectacular catches but also muffs plays and gets himself hurt.

Heath
01-17-2007, 04:46 PM
That we are even getting rumblings of a Jr move to RF is a good sign, IMO. As several have pointed out this may just be part of the dance that asuages Jr's ego by giving the appearance that it's somehow Jr's choice.

And from a "there's a conspiricy everywhere" angle, I can see Wayne or one of his minions using Hal McCoy as a vechile to communicate this to the fans without Wayne having to give a press conference to say "Jr might consider a move".

Who's the guy who played CF for the Red Sox in the 1975 world series? Dang...total mental block. I remember the broadcasters talking about how with his long legs he would cover a ton of ground to make hauling in fly balls look deceptivley easy. I'll have to go look that up.

Fred Lynn.

Chip R
01-17-2007, 05:01 PM
There's merit to having depth on the bench (or any viable bench at all, really, that's not made up entirely of relief pitchers).


Blasphemer.

RedsBaron
01-17-2007, 05:03 PM
Who's the guy who played CF for the Red Sox in the 1975 world series?

Fred Lynn. Hall of Fame talent who did not quite have a HOF career.

dsmith421
01-17-2007, 05:09 PM
Nor am I talking about his skills as he contributed to one specific team. I'm speaking of his abilities and weaknesses empirically.

Three points:

1. Hitting. He has lifetime rate stats of .216/.255/.300. That's absolutely atrocious. Shocking even.

2. Baserunning. Ten stolen bases in 205 games over four seasons. 32 runs scored in that same period of time.

3. Fielding. According to Baseball Reference his range factor is marginally better than the average ML outfielder.

I see absolutely no reason why anyone should be paying this man money to play the game of baseball.

M2
01-17-2007, 05:10 PM
Who's the guy who played CF for the Red Sox in the 1975 world series? Dang...total mental block. I remember the broadcasters talking about how with his long legs he would cover a ton of ground to make hauling in fly balls look deceptivley easy.

The three best CFs I've ever seen - Garry Maddox, Devon White and Andruw Jones - made it look easy too. One of the best arguments for keeping Jim Edmonds out of the elite classification is that he makes the job look harder than it needs to be.

vaticanplum
01-17-2007, 05:12 PM
Three points:

1. Hitting. He has lifetime rate stats of .216/.255/.300. That's absolutely atrocious. Shocking even.

2. Baserunning. Ten stolen bases in 205 games over four seasons. 32 runs scored in that same period of time.

3. Fielding. According to Baseball Reference his range factor is marginally better than the average ML outfielder.

I see absolutely no reason why anyone should be paying this man money to play the game of baseball.

Alright, well, to each his own. I think the latter two points are sufficient for a $400,000 bench guy.

Roy Tucker
01-17-2007, 05:22 PM
Three points:

1. Hitting. He has lifetime rate stats of .216/.255/.300. That's absolutely atrocious. Shocking even.

2. Baserunning. Ten stolen bases in 205 games over four seasons. 32 runs scored in that same period of time.

3. Fielding. According to Baseball Reference his range factor is marginally better than the average ML outfielder.

I see absolutely no reason why anyone should be paying this man money to play the game of baseball.

Don't confuse me with facts and data.

Redsland
01-17-2007, 05:32 PM
That we are even getting rumblings of a Jr move to RF is a good sign, IMO.
Absolutely. :thumbup:

dfs
01-17-2007, 07:01 PM
Three points:

1. Hitting. He has lifetime rate stats of .216/.255/.300. That's absolutely atrocious. Shocking even.

2. Baserunning. Ten stolen bases in 205 games over four seasons. 32 runs scored in that same period of time.

3. Fielding. According to Baseball Reference his range factor is marginally better than the average ML outfielder.

I see absolutely no reason why anyone should be paying this man money to play the game of baseball.

In reverse order....
#3 average fielding at a position like center field has some value. You can't just pull in any schmoe and expect them to do the job. Indeed, the reason for the thread is that the schmoe they have in center field isn't even close to doing an average job.

#2 10 stolen bases over the course of that career translates to roughly one stolen base for every 6 times he's on the basepaths. His stolen base rate is such that he's helping the team. Roughly he's running as often as Freel and being much more successfull at it. Obviously the sample size is small, but the numbers do point in Crosby's favor.

#1 His major league hitting numbers are doo-doo. He's had 250 major league at bats. In 2500 minor league at bats he projects to hit major league pitching better than he actually has. (note that he's not projected to hit enough to be really good....just better than he actually has) You can take either route here. You can claim that there is some mystical difference between major league and minor league hitting and that Crosby will never get over the hump, or you can say...Given his sample size, he's hit in poor luck.

I don't think Crosby stands to make the 40 man roster.
I don't think he'll see any plate appearances at all.
He's a better centerfielder (warts and all) than Junior is right now.
Some managers like guys like this at the end of the bench. Jerry Narron wants to have 3 catchers. meh.

Marc D
01-17-2007, 07:20 PM
1st reaction: Great! Deno or Freel, doesn't matter, instant defensive upgrade.

2nd thought: The more options you give Narron to make a lineup with the more you increase his chances of making very bad choices on a consistent basis.

vaticanplum
01-17-2007, 07:31 PM
#1 His major league hitting numbers are doo-doo. He's had 250 major league at bats. In 2500 minor league at bats he projects to hit major league pitching better than he actually has. (note that he's not projected to hit enough to be really good....just better than he actually has) You can take either route here. You can claim that there is some mystical difference between major league and minor league hitting and that Crosby will never get over the hump, or you can say...Given his sample size, he's hit in poor luck.

I think it's also worth noting that he probably has a higher proportion of at-bats against relief pitching relative to starting than the average major-leaguer. Guys trained to get a minimal number of guys out and also guys that Crosby is likely to have not faced before.

I'm not, of course, implying that he's in any way a good hitter, but that's something to consider too.

Heath
01-17-2007, 07:55 PM
....and of course the entire "x" factor of the whole OF mess in Cincinnati will be the development (albiet a long shot) of Josh Hamilton. If the Reds want to keep him and the D-Rays won't trade him for purposes of sending him down to the minors, you have to be cogniscent of playing with 24.

mth123
01-17-2007, 08:23 PM
You have to see them play in person to appreciate Denorfia and also understand Freel.

Freel's an above average defensive center fielder, and he's willing to dive for everything that's within his reach. Those are the plays people remember, and it's always the end of said plays that get the highlights. The problem is Freel's initial jump on balls is actually rather lousy, and the initial jump is something you'll rarely see on TV yet it's plainly visible from the box seats. His biggest problem is immediately judging the depth of a fly ball. He'll break in on balls that'll go over his head, and he'll break back on balls that wouldn't reach his position. One result of those bad jumps is some of the diving catches Freel makes wouldn't have required a diving catch if he had read the ball correctly off the bat initially. Luckily, Freel has the speed to oftentimes make up for his poor first read, though sometimes his bad jump has cost him.

Denorfia gets a much better jump on balls in the outfield than Freel, and he'll also take a better direct line to the spot on the field he has to be at to make the catch. He is the exact blueprint any team would want in a center fielder defensively, because he does everything very well defensively. The downside is if you're stuck watching him on television, you're robbed of seeing half of what makes Denorfia a great center fielder since you'll never see his first jump, where he was at in center when the bat made contact with the ball, or his full, direct line to the ball; you'll only see the end of the play as he's gliding over to make what looks like an easy grab.

My thoughts exactly. Spectacular looking doesn't always = good.

IslandRed
01-17-2007, 08:57 PM
I don't think Crosby stands to make the 40 man roster.
I don't think he'll see any plate appearances at all.

He's already on the 40; you probably meant to say the active roster. I agree with you. Barring a trade, if the Reds carry 12 pitchers as usual, I'm seeing 24 spots as good as sewn up -- which leaves Crosby, Moeller, Keppinger, Hamilton et. al. fighting for the last bench spot. His best chance is if there are no other lefty pinch-hitting options on the bench, and I wouldn't doubt there could be better ones available for free come March cuts.

Luckily, we gave Crosby a split contract so we don't have to pay major-league money for him to sit in Louisville awaiting an injury callup.

WVRedsFan
01-17-2007, 09:11 PM
I personally think this is the difference between maybe 10 more wins or losses. If Griffey moves to RF I will feel a lot more confident about the defense they are putting behind the pitchers. World Griffey be considered an above avg. defensive RF or not?

Good move, if it happens. And if this means 10 more wins, it also means Jerry will lose 10 more games with bogus moves, so it evens out. 80-82 again.

What progress!:D

Jr's Boy
01-17-2007, 09:26 PM
*cough* Coco Crisp *cough*



Sounds good to me.

jojo
01-17-2007, 10:05 PM
The three best CFs I've ever seen - Garry Maddox, Devon White and Andruw Jones - made it look easy too. One of the best arguments for keeping Jim Edmonds out of the elite classification is that he makes the job look harder than it needs to be.

The best defensive seasons I've ever seen from a centerfielder.... they were in Seattle but they weren't from Griffey. Cameron was simply breathtaking to watch in '01 and '02. Those were good times.

I pretty much agree with some earlier comments concerning Freel/Denorfia...

Freel gets poor jumps and takes lousy routes to balls ultimately getting by on his speed but its at a cost....all of those dives take a toll.

Denorfia is just simply a very, very good, technically sound defender.

I'd play Denorfia over Freel if defense is the deciding factor.

harangatang
01-17-2007, 11:11 PM
Good move, if it happens. And if this means 10 more wins, it also means Jerry will lose 10 more games with bogus moves, so it evens out. 80-82 again.

What progress!:DBarring any major moves, if the Reds finished 80-82 IMO it would be a good year in 2007.

KoryMac5
01-18-2007, 01:08 AM
I think a point has to be continued to be emphasized here. JR has always said that he would do whatever is best for the Reds. I have to believe with that thought process in mind that mgmt went to him with the position change because a deal is in the works for a CF.

Highlifeman21
01-20-2007, 03:44 PM
Denorfia madde some nice plays, also botched a few. In fact, it seemed like a botched defensive play was what ended "Denorfia's time" in Narron's mind and got him benched for a while. Freel on the other hand is one of the best outfielders in the league. I saw him win five games with his glove.


That's certainly an one opinion.

Not exactly the most accurate opinion.

Freel is far from being one of the best OF in the league. While he might make webgems for his superior hustle plays, he still doesn't get a good break on many balls, and his arm is average at best.

Chris Denorfia, however, is a much better athlete than Ryan Freel, is better instinctually in the OF, makes better breaks on balls, takes better routes, and has an above average+ arm.

Chris Denorfia is still a kid trying to get some playing time.

Ryan Freel is enjoying playing time thanks to being the rich man's Chris Stynes.

Denorfia is a long term solution for the Queen City. Very soon, Ryan Freel will be a man without a position.