PDA

View Full Version : Sign Harang, or pity party's over



Jpup
01-26-2007, 02:52 PM
I didn't see this posted, from Lonnie Wheeler of the Cincy Post:

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070126/SPT05/701260334/1027


The choice for the Reds this winter has essentially been two-fold. Be nuts, or be quiet.

Only one of the above is cheap. Not a tough call.

Nevertheless, the Cincinnati baseball team would prefer that its name and that five-letter word find different sentences to fill out. Bob Castellini, the second-year owner, has been brandishing his competitive spirit in every speech, promising that a few bucks will not separate the Reds from the race. The produce prince, however, has yet to put his cabbage into anything more than cole slaw.

In that stance, he has chosen the right market. Cincinnati is desperate for a contending team - last year's counts only if you can't count (to, say, 82) - but not so delirious that it expects the home club to spend $55 million, or even 55 crates of cantaloupes, on Gil Meche, as silly Kansas City did. Around here, nothing engenders empathy like high prices and unworthy ballplayers.

So the Reds, for the most part, sit on the deck with fast-drying toes while the Cubs and Mets and Giants, etc., cannon-

ball into the free-agent pool like show-off teen-agers, sending up the big splashes that soar through the sunshine and leave their surroundings sopping wet. And while Cincinnati's constituency deals uneasily with its boredom, it's basically cool with the whole thing.

No $126 million here for nearly two presidential terms of Barry Zito (Giants). No $10.5 million for a summer of ol' Tom Glavine (Mets). No $10 million for a season of ol' Greg Maddux (Padres), $16 million for Andy Pettitte (Yankees), $8 million for Randy Wolf (Dodgers), $21 million for three years of Jason Marquis (Cubs), $24.5 million for the same amount of Adam Eaton (Phillies), $47 million for 36 months of Jason Schmidt (Dodgers again), $42 million for an Olympiad of Jeff Suppan (Brewers), or $40 million for that much Ted Lilly (Cubs again). There's more where those came from, but not a one of them outpitched the Reds' Aaron Harang last year.

What do you want out of a starter? Wins? With 16, Harang tied for the National League lead in those. Innings? He shouldered 234, six behind teammate Bronson Arroyo, who led the league. Complete games? Harang's half-dozen led the NL in that category. Strikeouts? Led the league.

In arbitration this winter, Harang is asking the Reds for $5.5 million. They're offering $4.25 million. On the open market, he'd make that for a couple extended road trips.

So pay the man, and while you're at it, pay him for next year and the year after and the year after that, if the good fellow's willing. Serious, you say, about starting pitching? Pay the man to stay the man. That much, you owe the city.

No doubt, the Reds are even now endeavoring to do that, and well may. It would be the best bargain of the offseason, the kind of deal they simply have to make to keep up with the Chicagos and Houstons and world champion Cardinals of the NL Central. But if they let Harang get away at that price, the pity party's over.

So far, general manager Wayne Krivsky has shopped discerningly with his rolls of quarters. Alex Gonzalez appears to be the sort of lockdown shortstop Cincinnati sorely needs. Former prodigy Josh Hamilton was well worth the negligible risk. Mike Stanton and Jeff Conine are competent veterans.

Some folks were displeased to see the Reds part this week with the youth (24) and Double-A numbers of reliever David Shafer in return for veteran Kirk Saarloos. They argue that Saarloos is just another .500 pitcher - but hey, at 27, he can be a .500 pitcher for years to come. Besides that, when he was 23, working the Texas League, the right-hander went 10-1 with a 1.40 earned run average, giving up only 48 hits in 83 innings. Those are Homer Bailey numbers. And you get five bonus years of big-league experience.

It was another pretty-good gambit on Krivsky's part, another show of faith in his scouting department, another mild move to err on the side of value. Along those lines, the difficulty this winter has not been with what the Reds have done. It's with what they haven't done.

They haven't found a closer. They haven't settled center field. They haven't kept up with the competition.

They haven't traded Adam Dunn for Brad Penny.

There'd be nothing nuts about that.

Contact Lonnie Wheeler at lwheeler@cincypost.com.

Read Lonnie's blog at http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/lonniewheeler/

cumberlandreds
01-26-2007, 02:55 PM
Pay Harang the $5.5 million. In this market that's a bargain.

dougdirt
01-26-2007, 02:56 PM
Something I agree with. They need to lock Harang up for years....

Matt700wlw
01-26-2007, 02:57 PM
They'll sign him.

Chip R
01-26-2007, 02:58 PM
I'm getting very tired of Wheeler referring to Bob as the "produce prince" or "Cabbage King" or any other alliterative ways that he manages to describe Bob. At first it was humorous but it's tired now and he doesn't know when to drop it.

From what Wayne said to my group last Saturday night, he regrets not having signed Harang for close to what he was asking for last year because of how the market has exploded. But he said he is on very good terms with Aaron's agent and they hope to sign him long term.

savafan
01-26-2007, 03:03 PM
From what Wayne said to my group last Saturday night, he regrets not having signed Harang for close to what he was asking for last year because of how the market has exploded. But he said he is on very good terms with Aaron's agent and they hope to sign him long term.

Here's hoping that they do. :beerme:

FWIW, the only baseball publication I ever saw that predicted the type of pitcher that Harang has turned into was Beckett Baseball Card monthly. Several years back when discussing minor league players that would soon impact the majors, they predicted that Harang would become the A's best pitcher. Well, thankfully, he's become the Reds' best pitcher. :)

redsmetz
01-26-2007, 03:10 PM
I'm getting very tired of Wheeler referring to Bob as the "produce prince" or "Cabbage King" or any other alliterative ways that he manages to describe Bob. At first it was humorous but it's tired now and he doesn't know when to drop it.

From what Wayne said to my group last Saturday night, he regrets not having signed Harang for close to what he was asking for last year because of how the market has exploded. But he said he is on very good terms with Aaron's agent and they hope to sign him long term.

I very much like Wheeler's writing and style, but it is getting old. It would be great if we can get this done sooner rather than later.

CTA513
01-26-2007, 03:11 PM
They'll sign him.

I just hope its more than a 1 year deal.

fewfirstchoice
01-26-2007, 03:39 PM
Theres been alot of talk today about a Dunn for Penny trade.Does anyone think theres something to it or is it just speculation on the medias part.I say this because earlier they were a little noise about a trade of Dunn for Penny but there hasnt been much talk of it as of late.Now all of a sudden today its in 2 or 3 articles in the media,specualtion or not.

Matt700wlw
01-26-2007, 03:44 PM
I just hope its more than a 1 year deal.

So do I.

thatcoolguy_22
01-27-2007, 06:24 AM
Theres been alot of talk today about a Dunn for Penny trade.Does anyone think theres something to it or is it just speculation on the medias part.I say this because earlier they were a little noise about a trade of Dunn for Penny but there hasnt been much talk of it as of late.Now all of a sudden today its in 2 or 3 articles in the media,specualtion or not.


I've seen it posted here half a dozen times that the trades the media screams to the world in their rumor mills usually don't happen. I don't want to incite another dunn bashing or lovefest but I would love to see that sort of manuever though. harang penny arroyo 1-2-3? all day everyday sweet heart.

Highlifeman21
01-27-2007, 07:38 AM
I've seen it posted here half a dozen times that the trades the media screams to the world in their rumor mills usually don't happen. I don't want to incite another dunn bashing or lovefest but I would love to see that sort of manuever though. harang penny arroyo 1-2-3? all day everyday sweet heart.

So who makes up for the departure of his offensive production?

thatcoolguy_22
01-27-2007, 08:19 AM
So who makes up for the departure of his offensive production?


Dunn for Penny
Deno in Left
1-2-3 of Harang Penny and Arroyo
increased defense in left
freel in right and deno in left could basically cover for KGJ in center
EE will have an increased number of AB's this year however it will be impossible to make up for 40+ HRs, .500+ SLG% and .365+ OBP.

lineup-
RF freel
LF denorfia
3B EE
CF KGJ
1B Hatty
C Ross
2B Phillips
SS Gonzalez


Harang
Penny
Arroyo
Milton(Lohse after milton's knee gives out)
Lohse/Saarlos



Basic outline of a team that will be winning with increased steals, hit and runs, solid defense (EE is improving) and, quality pitching. More 4-3 victories instead of 9 to 8 defeats. IMHO

RedLegSuperStar
01-27-2007, 08:42 AM
Dunn for Penny
Deno in Left
1-2-3 of Harang Penny and Arroyo
increased defense in left
freel in right and deno in left could basically cover for KGJ in center
EE will have an increased number of AB's this year however it will be impossible to make up for 40+ HRs, .500+ SLG% and .365+ OBP.

lineup-
RF freel
LF denorfia
3B EE
CF KGJ
1B Hatty
C Ross
2B Phillips
SS Gonzalez


Harang
Penny
Arroyo
Milton(Lohse after milton's knee gives out)
Lohse/Saarlos



Basic outline of a team that will be winning with increased steals, hit and runs, solid defense (EE is improving) and, quality pitching. More 4-3 victories instead of 9 to 8 defeats. IMHO

Dunn should get more of a return than Penny.. I got to at least think you have to ask for Ethier or Kemp plus a Double A prospect. I would prefer Ethier.. he shows pop and can hit for average.. something that would slightly come close to Dunn's HR power but counter his K's and failure to get those Sac Flies and not to mention defense. Penny would bolster this rotation and perhaps give Cincinnati one of its best rotations in 15-20 years. You then move Deno/Freel to CF, Junior has got to move to RF, you have Edwin who is tearing up winter ball at 3rd, the middle infield is about as good if not better than Larkin/Boone back in the mid to late 90's, then you have Hatteberg/Conine sharing time at 1st and both can contribute at the plate, as for catchers.. lets just hope it is Ross & Javy, and in just the past season and this offseason Krivsky has focused on the Bullpen. Some say the team would be depleated if a Dunn for Penny trade went down.. but if it did for the players that I mentioned I think we better the club as far as all around.. not in the power department where I think the game of baseball has been headed since the mid 90's. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Dunn to LA deal during Spring Training. If Dunn this season can show he can make better contact and cut down on his strikeouts the Reds will cash in on him.

RedLegSuperStar
01-27-2007, 08:46 AM
But I apologize for getting off-topic.. Harang deserves a Long Term Contract. The Reds owe that to him for being the Ace of this staff. With the proposed offer Aaron gave the Reds.. the Reds should have never.... ever... countered with 4.25 million. Lohse makes that money.. is Harang the same pitcher as Lohse.. does the team rely on Kyle like they do Aaron? The Reds should lock Harang up to a 5 year 45-50 million dollar contract that will be cheap probably come next year..

bucksfan2
01-27-2007, 08:49 AM
Is Dunn a FA after this year? I believe Penny is. The risk to this trade is Penny will not reup in cincy where you have a good chance with signing dunn. With as much offense that dunn brings to the reds you would hope you could get more than just a one year rental. The reds dont really have anyone who could step in and produce waiting in the minors. The only somewhat ready guy in the system who seems like he may be a run producer is Votto and he appears to be blocked by a two headed elderly monster at first.

SirFelixCat
01-27-2007, 08:53 AM
I'm not one to usually post a "told-ya-so" kinda thing, but umm, uh...check out the date:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35567&highlight=harang

thatcoolguy_22
01-27-2007, 08:59 AM
But I apologize for getting off-topic.. Harang deserves a Long Term Contract. The Reds owe that to him for being the Ace of this staff. With the proposed offer Aaron gave the Reds.. the Reds should have never.... ever... countered with 4.25 million. Lohse makes that money.. is Harang the same pitcher as Lohse.. does the team rely on Kyle like they do Aaron? The Reds should lock Harang up to a 5 year 45-50 million dollar contract that will be cheap probably come next year..

agreed. we shouldn't have really gotten off topic on this one. I would like to see Harang signed to a 5 year deal as well. He is the heart of the pitching staff and is coming into his prime this year. Our counter offer to harang was ludacris at best and wayne should be ashamed of his actions. It is offers like this that can keep a player from signing a longer deal with the team. Look at bonds and the pirates. He felt neglected because of andy van slyke's contract and look at what he went on to do in san fran... its ridiculous

Tom Servo
01-27-2007, 09:06 AM
Is Dunn a FA after this year? I believe Penny is. The risk to this trade is Penny will not reup in cincy where you have a good chance with signing dunn. With as much offense that dunn brings to the reds you would hope you could get more than just a one year rental. The reds dont really have anyone who could step in and produce waiting in the minors. The only somewhat ready guy in the system who seems like he may be a run producer is Votto and he appears to be blocked by a two headed elderly monster at first.
The Reds have a 2008 option on Dunn. Penny will be a free agent after the 2008 season.

Highlifeman21
01-27-2007, 02:12 PM
Dunn for Penny
Deno in Left
1-2-3 of Harang Penny and Arroyo
increased defense in left
freel in right and deno in left could basically cover for KGJ in center
EE will have an increased number of AB's this year however it will be impossible to make up for 40+ HRs, .500+ SLG% and .365+ OBP.

lineup-
RF freel
LF denorfia
3B EE
CF KGJ
1B Hatty
C Ross
2B Phillips
SS Gonzalez


Harang
Penny
Arroyo
Milton(Lohse after milton's knee gives out)
Lohse/Saarlos



Basic outline of a team that will be winning with increased steals, hit and runs, solid defense (EE is improving) and, quality pitching. More 4-3 victories instead of 9 to 8 defeats. IMHO

So your logic is that we trade our best offensive player for a marginal pitching upgrade @ the 3 spot, and then hope for superhuman career production out of EE to make up the difference? Seems very flawed to me.

And to keep KGJ in CF over Denorfia or Freel is insanely criminal. Put KGJ in RF where he belongs.

BEETTLEBUG
01-27-2007, 05:51 PM
OK signHarang trade Dunn put Freel in left Deno in center and Jr. in right then.

Jpup
01-27-2007, 05:56 PM
OK signHarang trade Dunn put Freel in left Deno in center and Jr. in right then.

then watch the Reds lose 100 games.

BEETTLEBUG
01-27-2007, 07:01 PM
You Just Don't Have Any Faith Do You?

RedLegSuperStar
01-27-2007, 07:19 PM
You Just Don't Have Any Faith Do You?

None of us would if we arn't getting more than Penny in return. If I was making the deals I would be demanding Penny, Ethier and probably a mid level prospect for Dunn. Have Ethier in LF, Deno/Freel CF, and Junior Griffey in RF. Does that make us better? Not sure but it doesn't make us worse than we are now.

We need to weight out the good and the bad if a deal like that were to go down.

Good:
The best pitching staff this team has had in over 15 years. Better defense, contact, speed, and also the Reds save money..

Bad:
Power decreases, and loss of a fan favorite.

Bobcat J
01-27-2007, 07:37 PM
Bad:
Power decreases, and loss of a fan favorite.

Too bad only about half of Reds fans actually appreciate how good Dunn is.

BEETTLEBUG
01-27-2007, 10:15 PM
I didn't say just DUNN