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timmario66
01-30-2007, 10:46 AM
I'm sure this will get all the Marty haters riled up:

http://www.amnews.com/public_html/?module=displaystory&story_id=28715&format=html


What about outfielder Adam Dunn (40 home runs, 92 runs-batted in in 2006)? Could he be the key?

Brennaman: "I am pretty close to giving up on Adam Dunn. I don't know if he is capable of changing his approach to the plate, based on what the count is, and can be happy with shortening his swing, hitting the ball the other way and showing a measure of discipline. I am at the point where I don't know if it can happen. He is a guy who drove in five runs in the month of September last year and didn't even get to 100 runs batted-in.

"People constantly ask if the club is trying to trade him. I think this team waited one year too long to try and trade him. If they had traded him after 2005, they would have got something good. I don't think there was a team in baseball that had any interest in him after last year.

"He is going to make $10 million this year. I get tired of people saying he hits 40 home runs and drives in 100 runs. Wonderful. This is a guy who should hit 50 plus home runs and should drive in 130 runs or more every single year. And he can't do it because he leads the world in strikeouts. I think he was overweight last year. He walks to his position. He walks off the field. You see no energy whatsoever and that disappoints the heck out of me."

westofyou
01-30-2007, 10:52 AM
This is a guy who should hit 50 plus home runs and should drive in 130 runs or more every single year.


HOMERUNS YEAR HR RBI
1 Barry Bonds 2001 73 137
2 Mark McGwire 1998 70 147
3 Sammy Sosa 1998 66 158
4 Mark McGwire 1999 65 147
5 Sammy Sosa 2001 64 160
6 Sammy Sosa 1999 63 141
7 Roger Maris 1961 61 142
8 Babe Ruth 1927 60 164
9 Babe Ruth 1921 59 171
T10 Jimmie Foxx 1932 58 169
T10 Ryan Howard 2006 58 149
T10 Hank Greenberg 1938 58 146
T13 Alex Rodriguez 2002 57 142
T13 Luis Gonzalez 2001 57 142
T15 Ken Griffey Jr. 1998 56 146
T15 Ken Griffey Jr. 1997 56 147
T15 Hack Wilson 1930 56 191
T18 Babe Ruth 1928 54 142
T18 David Ortiz 2006 54 137
T18 Babe Ruth 1920 54 137
T21 George Foster 1977 52 149
T21 Alex Rodriguez 2001 52 135
T21 Mickey Mantle 1956 52 130
T24 Johnny Mize 1947 51 138
T24 Cecil Fielder 1990 51 132
T26 Sammy Sosa 2000 50 138
T26 Jimmie Foxx 1938 50 175

NATIONAL LEAGUE

HOMERUNS YEAR HR RBI
1 Barry Bonds 2001 73 137
2 Mark McGwire 1998 70 147
3 Sammy Sosa 1998 66 158
4 Mark McGwire 1999 65 147
5 Sammy Sosa 2001 64 160
6 Sammy Sosa 1999 63 141
7 Ryan Howard 2006 58 149
8 Luis Gonzalez 2001 57 142
9 Hack Wilson 1930 56 191
10 George Foster 1977 52 149
11 Johnny Mize 1947 51 138
12 Sammy Sosa 2000 50 138

Reds who have done it


HOMERUNS YEAR HR RBI
1 George Foster 1977 52 149

membengal
01-30-2007, 10:56 AM
And...any hope of Marty being the least bit professional and even-handed from the booth calling the games when Dunn is up in 2007 is already gone. So much for wishing for a change from the past from him...

I missed the memo: since when are announcers required to "believe in" or state that they are close to "giving up on" players?

Mind-boggling. Every time I get the least bit excited for the spring, something in here crushes it. Now I know that first broadcast from Florida (a great day every March) will be sullied from the get-go with an early Marty broadside against a player he is "pretty close to giving up" on. Wonderful.

boognish
01-30-2007, 10:59 AM
The Reds would have to "give up" on a lot of guys if 50/130 was the measuring stick.

10 HR and 38 RBI would be easily attained if he sprinted out to his position? I think the two are mutually exclusive.

15fan
01-30-2007, 11:02 AM
"This is a guy who should hit 50 plus home runs and should drive in 130 runs or more every single year."

And when he's not smashing every single pitch he sees at least 750 feet, he needs to be working on cures for cancer, global warming and the national debt, as well as unlocking the secrets to cold fusion and time travel.

Raisor
01-30-2007, 11:08 AM
And when he's not smashing every single pitch he sees at least 750 feet, he needs to be working on cures for cancer, global warming and the national debt, as well as unlocking the secrets to cold fusion and time travel.

That's what Jack Bauer and Puffy do on days off.

bounty37h
01-30-2007, 11:09 AM
what, truth hurt? I dont see anything Marty said that I dont believe in as well. I like Dunn, havent gave up on him, but fully understand where Marty is coming from

George Anderson
01-30-2007, 11:11 AM
The Reds would have to "give up" on a lot of guys if 50/130 was the measuring stick.

10 HR and 38 RBI would be easily attained if he sprinted out to his position? I think the two are mutually exclusive.

I think that not hustling to his position and to a greater degree being overweight doesnt make Dunn look very professional. Would dropping 20 pounds and hustling to his position get him to 50/130 ?? Maybe or maybe not, but I think being in top shape and hustling on the field would ultimately enhance his performance on the field.

Red Leader
01-30-2007, 11:17 AM
what, truth hurt? I dont see anything Marty said that I dont believe in as well. I like Dunn, havent gave up on him, but fully understand where Marty is coming from

That's the problem. Some people just aren't happy with what Adam Dunn brings to the table. Some people want Adam Dunn to be Adam Dunn, and Tony Gwynn. He's simply not that kind of ballplayer. If you don't like that, that's fine, and understandable, but then, you wouldn't be appreciating one of the better offensive players the Reds have had in a couple decades. What's so bad about Adam Dunn being Adam Dunn? Last time I checked not a whole lot of Reds had scored 100 runs and driven in nearly 100 runs like Dunn has almost every year. Not many players get on base at the frequency Dunn does. I'm not saying that Adam Dunn is a perfect player, that is by no means the case, but just because the guy doesn't turn into a Judy-hitter with 2 strikes you're going to give up on the guy? Give me a break.

RedsManRick
01-30-2007, 11:17 AM
You may or may not agree with Marty, but you have to like that he has an opinion he's actually willing to express.

HumnHilghtFreel
01-30-2007, 11:19 AM
I actually appreciate that he doesn't hold back the way he really feels about the team. He might not be overly optimistic, but the fact that he's hard on some guys because they aren't fulfilling their potential or on some issues with the team shows that he really cares about the team.

Joseph
01-30-2007, 11:22 AM
You may or may not agree with Marty, but you have to like that he has an opinion he's actually willing to express.

I suppose to some degree its better than simply blowing smoke up our bums every time he gets on the radio, but at the same time Marty is a HoFer. He's been watching this game a long time and he should know how rare what his expectations are for a ball player to do even ONCE, much less EVERY YEAR.

CySeymour
01-30-2007, 11:23 AM
And he can't do it because he leads the world in strikeouts.

Of course, Ryan Howard struckout 181 times last year. I guess he sucks, too.

westofyou
01-30-2007, 11:24 AM
what, truth hurt? I dont see anything Marty said that I dont believe in as well. I like Dunn, havent gave up on him, but fully understand where Marty is coming from

Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.

Einstein

Caveman Techie
01-30-2007, 11:25 AM
Personally I like Marty. I like the fact that he dosen't pull any punches. However on this subject I just disagree with him. I have no problems with Dunn's approach at the plate as long as he keeps his OBP up there in the stratosphere.

The one area I would like to see some improvement on from Dunn is his fielding though.

GoReds
01-30-2007, 11:28 AM
Howard OPS'd 1.084 last year to Dunn's 0.893.

Strikeouts is the only category they have in common.

Raisor
01-30-2007, 11:30 AM
I'd trade Marty to the Braves for Skip Carrey in a second. Skip is all about chicks and barbeque.

mmmmmmm....barbeque.

TRF
01-30-2007, 11:34 AM
Not pulling punches is one thing. But when THE VOICE OF THE REDS, the guy who kids know just by hearing him speak, a man considered to be an expert in the game by the casual fan says he gives up on one of the better offensive players the Reds have had in a decade, then it's time management sat Marty down. He negatively impacts the fans with his complete lack of understanding what makes a player great, or even good. He talks about Dunn accomplishing something woy pointed out has only been done 27 times, 12 in the National League. He has no historical knowledge of the game when he makes silly assertions like that, and he raises arguments that casual fans parrot that have no basis in reality.

That said he does call a good walk-off HR.

boognish
01-30-2007, 11:35 AM
There are extremely few players in MLB history with Dunn's body type; fewer still that played the outfield for a lengthy period of time. Just because the guy doesn't look very graceful tracking fly balls is no reason to take shots at him about his weight, in my opinion.

Could Dunn be better? Maybe. Was his value higher after 2005 than it is today? I do not think there is any doubt. It's possible that it is of long-term benefit for him to shed some weight (injury-wise), but I think Dunn's burgeoning repuatation as a lazy, uncaring slob is grossly overstated by many in the print and radio media, and it is not fair to him.

He is a valuable player. I wish more folks held the majority opinion of the community on Redszone and celebrated his achievements and what he does well, rather than bemoaning his faults and the holes in his game. I hope he DOES hit 50 HRs, but even if that happens, the RBI total will likely not be high enough for some people.

BRM
01-30-2007, 11:36 AM
Yeah, Dunn's terrible because he can't do every single year what has been done exactly 26 times in the history of baseball. 50/130 every year? Give me a freakin' break.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
01-30-2007, 11:36 AM
And...any hope of Marty being the least bit professional and even-handed from the booth calling the games when Dunn is up in 2007 is already gone. So much for wishing for a change from the past from him...

I missed the memo: since when are announcers required to "believe in" or state that they are close to "giving up on" players?

Mind-boggling. Every time I get the least bit excited for the spring, something in here crushes it. Now I know that first broadcast from Florida (a great day every March) will be sullied from the get-go with an early Marty broadside against a player he is "pretty close to giving up" on. Wonderful.

Atleast he's got the sack to say what a lot of people are thinking.

RANDY IN INDY
01-30-2007, 11:37 AM
Howard OPS'd 1.084 last year to Dunn's 0.893.

Strikeouts is the only category they have in common.


Thank you.:beerme:

FutureRedsGM
01-30-2007, 11:37 AM
"This is a guy who should hit 50 plus home runs and should drive in 130 runs or more every single year."

And when he's not smashing every single pitch he sees at least 750 feet, he needs to be working on cures for cancer, global warming and the national debt, as well as unlocking the secrets to cold fusion and time travel.

You just received 50 imaginary rep points from me!!!

BRM
01-30-2007, 11:38 AM
Atleast he's got the sack to say what a lot of people are thinking.

Then a lot of people are expecting WAY too much from Adam Dunn...or anyone for that matter. Expecting 50/130 from any player year in and year out is ludicrous.

boognish
01-30-2007, 11:40 AM
Atleast he's got the sack to say what a lot of people are thinking.

That is true, and by and large he is revered in the community for his abrasive style as well as his ability to make goosebumps raise on your skin calling a game. But, in the offseason, a little bit of research before setting the bar of public opinion on Mr. Dunn, please.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
01-30-2007, 11:41 AM
Then a lot of people are expecting WAY too much from Adam Dunn...or anyone for that matter. Expecting 50/130 from any player year in and year out is ludicrous.
Is the 50/130 comment the only thing you got from this. Read the rest of it.

BRM
01-30-2007, 11:41 AM
Howard OPS'd 1.084 last year to Dunn's 0.893.

Strikeouts is the only category they have in common.

I think the point he was trying to make is that strikeouts have little effect on Dunn or Howard's overall performance. Railing away on them is a pointless exercise.

BRM
01-30-2007, 11:42 AM
Is the 50/130 comment the only thing you got from this. Read the rest of it.

I did. He thinks Adam is lazy and strikes out too much. We've heard it from Marty many, many times before.

fearofpopvol1
01-30-2007, 11:48 AM
The strikeouts actually don't bother me. Perennial home run hitters typically strikeout more and hit for less of an average. It'd be nice to see Dunn somehow raise his batting average 10-20 points, but it's nothing worth losing sleep over.

The bigger issue to me is his defense. This is an area that should get progressively better and it seems to stay either the same or there is some sort of regression for Dunn. Why this is, I don't know. It's definitely disappointing. I'm not giving up like Marty, but I'd really like to see this improve and I think it's within his reach to improve as well.

membengal
01-30-2007, 11:48 AM
Atleast he's got the sack to say what a lot of people are thinking.

Sack? Sack?

Ill-informed opinions with no reference to the past or curiosity about how achieveable the imaginary standard Brenneman has set for Dunn is sack? I think other words are in order, like malicious. Or egomaniacal.

TRF has it dead right, and it becomes more and more apparent with the passage of time and the continued unrelenting bitterness from Brennamen that TRF is right.

And, as always, I feel compelled to note when discussing the angry bitter old man that Brennamen has become that I grew up listening to him and loving his game calls. I went to Cooperstown in 2000 not to see Doggie inducted, but to see Marty inducted.

But he lost his way some years ago, and bought into the notion that he was bigger than the franchise, and, in some ways, the game itself. It still saddens me. That said, when he sets his mind to it, he remains a game-caller without too many peers. Too often though, he doesn't devote the time to do it right, instead indulging in feeding his particular fetish of the moment. For too many years, the current fetish has been Dunn-bashing from him. Before that it was Jr. bashing. And it does matter, because, ill-informed that his opinion is, when he states it like he does, too many sheeple bleat it back. At GABP, on talk radio, and in forums like this one.

Ridiculous. And sad. As ever.

CySeymour
01-30-2007, 11:55 AM
I think the point he was trying to make is that strikeouts have little effect on Dunn or Howard's overall performance. Railing away on them is a pointless exercise.

Yep...exactly BRM. Hey, I think Howard's better, but I think the argument of the strikeouts is overblown.

edabbs44
01-30-2007, 11:59 AM
Don't forget...Marty is taking about Dunn's potential. Dunn is in the vicinity of 40-100 each year. It is Marty's opinion that he has the potential to go 50-130 each year. Maybe there is a little exaggeration going on, but what's wrong with thinking that he should be in that vicinity?

If it's true that Dunn doesn't really put much effort into his off-season conditioning and training, who's to say that he couldn't add 10 HRs to his yearly stats?

The fact of the matter is that Dunn appeared to be on his way to those levels after the 2004 season. Usually you are entering your prime at his current age. He is headed in the opposite direction.

TRF
01-30-2007, 12:06 PM
Atleast he's got the sack to say what a lot of people are thinking.

Having sack is not the same as being stupid with an open mic.


Howard OPS'd 1.084 last year to Dunn's 0.893.

Strikeouts is the only category they have in common.

Howard MIGHT be better than Dunn. He's had one monster phenomenal season under his belt, and what amounts to just over half a season of very very good.

And he might do it again next year. Or he might get pitched around, moved up and down the lineup, never getting comfortable, and have no protection in the lineup because he is all of a sudden hitting 6th.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 12:07 PM
Marty did get one thing right. The days of Dunn on the cheap are over and that lessens trade value. Other than that he just reflects the institutional bias that a K is much worse than any other out. What bothers me most about him is his fallacious appeal to authority based upon being a long time broadcaster(as McCoy does with his job a writer).

And BTW, Marty is the definition of a curmudgeon.

M2
01-30-2007, 12:10 PM
The strikeouts actually don't bother me. Perennial home run hitters typically strikeout more and hit for less of an average. It'd be nice to see Dunn somehow raise his batting average 10-20 points, but it's nothing worth losing sleep over.

The bigger issue to me is his defense. This is an area that should get progressively better and it seems to stay either the same or there is some sort of regression for Dunn. Why this is, I don't know. It's definitely disappointing. I'm not giving up like Marty, but I'd really like to see this improve and I think it's within his reach to improve as well.

Excellent post. Marty's got a point on the two-strike approach too, but his baby with the bathwater attitude turns any insight he might have into a comedy act.

remdog
01-30-2007, 12:19 PM
I've followed Dunn since his 'A ball' days. I felt then, and I still feel, that AD should be, and could be, a .275-.280 hitter. With that increased BA should/could come increased HR's and RBI. Cut twenty or thirty K's out of his season and a lot of nice things happen when he puts the ball in play.

Having said all of that I'm not of the Marty mind. I want this guy on my team! I've never once advocated trading Dunn nor do I want to now. If he never does any better than what he did last season he's still a very big straw stirring the drink. There are other areas that the Reds can improve to boost their standings.

Personally, I'd still rather see him at 1st base. Then 'running' doesn't become a problem. ;)

Rem

Team Clark
01-30-2007, 12:26 PM
I think that not hustling to his position and to a greater degree being overweight doesnt make Dunn look very professional. Would dropping 20 pounds and hustling to his position get him to 50/130 ?? Maybe or maybe not, but I think being in top shape and hustling on the field would ultimately enhance his performance on the field.

THAT I can totally agree with. :thumbup: At least act like you care.

Howard is aggressive at the plate and looks for pitches to drive. If he goes down swinging he goes down swinging. Dunn, he's confused most of the time. No plan.

Roy Tucker
01-30-2007, 12:35 PM
I think the kind of hitter Dunn is now is what he's going to be. It seems that any tinkering with his approach gets him off-kilter. So, like it or not, what you see is what you get.

I think defense and conditioning are 2 areas he could improve in. He is a sub-par LF and I don't think he's ever going to get better. 1B is where he should be.

And I think conditioning could help his endurance. He has the heart of a warrior and wants to play every day. But I think his large frame just wears him out. Either hit the gym a little harder or Narron needs to give him days off. I think him getting worn out contributed to his epic slump at the end of 2006.

TRF
01-30-2007, 12:36 PM
Todd Coffey runs to the mound every time he's called upon. It didn't make him a better pitcher than Shoeneweiss or Cormier or Shackelford. It just meant he got to the mound quicker than they did.

KoryMac5
01-30-2007, 12:37 PM
Dunn has the potential to hit 50/130 every year if the lineup we put out their this year can stay healthy. If the meat of the lineup Dunn, Edwin, and JR can stay healthy enough for atleast 130 games their is a good chance that Dunn can reach these lofty numbers. Dunn needs some protection, after the trade and JR's injury pitchers had their way with him because nobody had his back.

GoReds
01-30-2007, 12:39 PM
Todd Coffey runs to the mound every time he's called upon. It didn't make him a better pitcher than Shoeneweiss or Cormier or Shackelford. It just meant he got to the mound quicker than they did.

If Dunn worked out, lost some weight, hustled on the field and produced the same numbers, I'd still be happier for it.

Cincinnati has always been a town that appreciates hustle over talent. At least, that's the Reds team I grew up enjoying.

Red Leader
01-30-2007, 12:44 PM
If Dunn worked out, lost some weight, hustled on the field and produced the same numbers, I'd still be happier for it.

Cincinnati has always been a town that appreciates hustle over talent. At least, that's the Reds team I grew up enjoying.

I posted a thread in the minor league forums a week or two ago about Jay Bruce. It was the Dayton Dragon's Locker room show where they spoke to Jay Bruce via telephone. Bruce said that in the offseason he has worked out with Adam Dunn. He said that they've worked out (then) the past seven weeks and that Adam Dunn is simply a monster in the weight room. Bruce, I believe is around 6'3" 215-220. He's no small kid. He said that Adam Dunn simply has "natural" strength. He said that Dunn wouldn't even have to try and he could outlift most people. Anway, Bruce said that they have been working out together the past 7 weeks, so Adam has been working out and lifting weights. Just thought I'd let everyone know that if they didn't read that thread. It's not like Adam sits around and eats brats all day and watches TV.

muethibp
01-30-2007, 12:47 PM
I couldn't care less if Dunn runs off the field or not and, if pushed, I think that Marty would agree that it might not directly affect his overall performance. But anyone that says that Dunn is not overweight, and that being overweight isn't affecting his on-field performance, is not being interllectually honest, in my opinion. Same goes with Marty's comments about Dunn's plate discipline behind in the count; I don't see how anyone can challenege Marty on that statement.

Much has been made in this thread of Marty's 50/130 comment. While granting that it is historically a difficult achievement, I absolutely believe that improved plate discipline and improved conditioning could narrow the (now significant) gap between Dunn and Howard and put Dunn in the 50/130 range Marty discusses.

People can say that someone in Marty's shouldn't make such comments. But there's a lot of truth in what he says.

Kc61
01-30-2007, 12:49 PM
I think the kind of hitter Dunn is now is what he's going to be. It seems that any tinkering with his approach gets him off-kilter. So, like it or not, what you see is what you get.

But I think his large frame just wears him out. Either hit the gym a little harder or Narron needs to give him days off. I think him getting worn out contributed to his epic slump at the end of 2006.

The "kind" of hitter is clear. But the question is whether Dunn is the .956 OPS guy from 2004 or the .855 OPS guy from 2006.

To me, the .956 OPS guy is a force who is worth the strikeouts and defensive shortcomings. However, the .855 OPS guy may not be.

I think conditioning can help. I also wonder sometimes if Dunn's large frame simply makes it harder to keep his balance and hit the ball consistently. Whatever, in 2007 he needs to get back up to the .900 plus OPS level, which I sincerely hope he does.

TRF
01-30-2007, 12:51 PM
RBI is a team dependent stat that requires someone actually be on base for you to get the gaudier numbers. It also helps when you aren't hitting 6th and getting a BB because the pitcher would rather face Valentin or LaRue or Castro god forbid. Why anyone would complain (Marty) bacause Adam Dunn is only averaging 42 HR's a season is beyond me.

TRF
01-30-2007, 12:54 PM
The "kind" of hitter is clear. But the question is whether Dunn is the .956 OPS guy from 2004 or the .855 OPS guy from 2006.

To me, the .956 OPS guy is a force who is worth the strikeouts and defensive shortcomings. However, the .855 OPS guy may not be.

I think conditioning can help. I also wonder sometimes if Dunn's large frame simply makes it harder to keep his balance and hit the ball consistently. Whatever, in 2007 he needs to get back up to the .900 plus OPS level, which I sincerely hope he does.

I wonder if his drop in numbers at the end of 2006 had anything at all to do with the fact that the offense had been completely dismantled the previous 4 months (WMP, Kearns, Lopez, Jr. injured again.)

just a thought that perhaps Dunn was trying to do too much at the plate.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 12:55 PM
But anyone that says that Dunn is not overweight, and that being overweight isn't affecting his on-field performance, is not being interllectually honest, in my opinion. Anecdotally, McCoy stated last season that Dunn was neither overweight or out of shape(and he gets to "see" him with his clothes off).

flyer85
01-30-2007, 12:57 PM
I wonder if his drop in numbers at the end of 2006 had anything at all to do with the fact that the offense had been completely dismantled the previous 4 months (WMP, Kearns, Lopez, Jr. injured again.)
or maybe it was just a terrible slump and a bad season. Everyone has an opinion on the subject. I think it is safe to say that 2007 will probably go a long way to defining Dunn and will tell a lot about how the rest of his career is likely to go.

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 01:03 PM
I agree that the K's aren't as big of deal as people make them out to be. I also agree that Dunn brings great value to the team that most don't recognize.

Frankly, however, I hope that my superiors at my job (not that Marty is anybody's boss) would have higher expectations for me, than I have for myself. I'd also hope that they would get mad at me when they percieve I can do more with my natural tallents than my current efforts are producing. Therefore, that anybody expects more out of Dunn doesn't anger me. They are paying him the complement of saying, "he's got enough tallent to do more".

You can get hung up on the unrealsitic nature of 50/135. You can have a kneejerk reaction because Marty doesn't pepper his broadcast with stats, or is grumpy or whatever. But the fact of the matter is people see a lot of tallent in Dunn so when they see him sauntering out to his position (which I agree doesn't make one bit of difference but people judge you by what they see), being overweight, not making adjustments, they are going to call him on it.

As far as Marty's opinions swaying the casual fan. Hogwash. The casual fan is going to make these exact same judgements. Why? Because they are casual fans so things like being overweight, how many RBI's are produced, striking out is generally the depth of there understanding of the game. If they had a deeper understanding of the game, they wouldn't be casual fans. Therefore it should suprise no one that the casual fan would use such a measuring stick for Dunn, especially since he's a higher profile player.

bounty37h
01-30-2007, 01:03 PM
That's the problem. Some people just aren't happy with what Adam Dunn brings to the table. Some people want Adam Dunn to be Adam Dunn, and Tony Gwynn. He's simply not that kind of ballplayer. If you don't like that, that's fine, and understandable, but then, you wouldn't be appreciating one of the better offensive players the Reds have had in a couple decades. What's so bad about Adam Dunn being Adam Dunn? Last time I checked not a whole lot of Reds had scored 100 runs and driven in nearly 100 runs like Dunn has almost every year. Not many players get on base at the frequency Dunn does. I'm not saying that Adam Dunn is a perfect player, that is by no means the case, but just because the guy doesn't turn into a Judy-hitter with 2 strikes you're going to give up on the guy? Give me a break.

Thats why I said I like Dunn, but do think he has way more potential then wha the is giving out, and the money players make, think it is thier responsibility to the team to take full advantage and work to bring out the best potential. I dont expect him to be Tony Gwynn, not going to happen, but he could perform much better then he does. Pretty simple. Last time I checked, not many Reds have the potential (key word that Marty was implying) to do more....

George Anderson
01-30-2007, 01:04 PM
Todd Coffey runs to the mound every time he's called upon. It didn't make him a better pitcher than Shoeneweiss or Cormier or Shackelford. It just meant he got to the mound quicker than they did.

I dont think hustling to your position is going to add points to your batting average, but I recall as a player seeing teammates walk to their position and in a way it sent me a message that if they arent going to give 100% at all times then why should I??

Even as a 38 year old umpire I still hustle on 100% on the field. It may or may not make a difference if I get a safe or out call right but it does send a message to my partner or partners and especially the kids that its important to give 100% at all times on the field.

I just think its a shame players like Dunn cannot be more professional and have this attitude.

RANDY IN INDY
01-30-2007, 01:05 PM
THAT I can totally agree with. :thumbup: At least act like you care.

Howard is aggressive at the plate and looks for pitches to drive. If he goes down swinging he goes down swinging. Dunn, he's confused most of the time. No plan.

Agree.:beerme:

forfreelin04
01-30-2007, 01:08 PM
I posted a thread in the minor league forums a week or two ago about Jay Bruce. It was the Dayton Dragon's Locker room show where they spoke to Jay Bruce via telephone. Bruce said that in the offseason he has worked out with Adam Dunn. He said that they've worked out (then) the past seven weeks and that Adam Dunn is simply a monster in the weight room. Bruce, I believe is around 6'3" 215-220. He's no small kid. He said that Adam Dunn simply has "natural" strength. He said that Dunn wouldn't even have to try and he could outlift most people. Anway, Bruce said that they have been working out together the past 7 weeks, so Adam has been working out and lifting weights. Just thought I'd let everyone know that if they didn't read that thread. It's not like Adam sits around and eats brats all day and watches TV.

First let me say that this is the sort of stuff that isn't always readily available to the public. More often then not, you hear about what a player is not doing instead of what he is. I think if Marty had heard this he would be less inclined in his answer to suggest Dunn needs to work out or condition more. Whether or not he did condition last year is all together mute until relative evidence is known. Although, I highly doubt he spent all last off season in front of the tv eating brats and doing nothing else.

I, for one, was a constant Dunn basher on this board for several years. I listened to what Marty had to say then pretty much repeated it on the board. Now, thanks to Redszone I know better than to criticize a player for who he is and what he brings to the table. Not every player can live up to my expectatons for what a "perfect" ballplayer should be. Marty needs to start thinking in the same light.

That being said, Dunn is what he is. He is not going to hit for high average and he is not going to magically cut down on his strikeouts all of a sudden. However, what he does do, far surpasses the negatives of striking out a ton.

We must also remember that Dunn's lack of hustle, running off and on the field, isn't entirely his own fault. If this is something that is important, then it is Jerry's job to make sure he does it. I know you might say, "Well these guys are professionals blah blah blah. But if Jerry is so sensitive about "playing the game the right way" then he needs to get his players to portray it on the field.

Finally and I think rem hit the nail on the head. Dunn is certainly capable of hitting for a higher average .280 and he has had success in the past taking the ball the opposite way. If he really wants to improve his game, he needs to work on these things. I think his mindset is that if he changes his approach he will miss out on the homeruns. However, his brute strength and his awesome eye at the plate will not ever allow him to stop hitting homeruns. He only needs to make minor adjustments like hitting the ball where it is pitched to take it the opposite way or simply choking up on the bat a hair with two strikes. These minor adjustments can help Dunn in the areas hes struggling with now. Let us not forget that Jacoby has worked with Dunn in the past (minor leagues) and had a great deal of success with him. I wouldn't be surprised that if this previous experience with Dunn, didn't propel him above the other candidates. I look forward to see exactly how much Jacoby can help.

bounty37h
01-30-2007, 01:08 PM
Don't forget...Marty is taking about Dunn's potential. Dunn is in the vicinity of 40-100 each year. It is Marty's opinion that he has the potential to go 50-130 each year. Maybe there is a little exaggeration going on, but what's wrong with thinking that he should be in that vicinity?

If it's true that Dunn doesn't really put much effort into his off-season conditioning and training, who's to say that he couldn't add 10 HRs to his yearly stats?

The fact of the matter is that Dunn appeared to be on his way to those levels after the 2004 season. Usually you are entering your prime at his current age. He is headed in the opposite direction.

Thank you EdAbbs, glad someone gets the point on this!

RANDY IN INDY
01-30-2007, 01:11 PM
Finally and I think rem hit the nail on the head. Dunn is certainly capable of hitting for a higher average .280 and he has had success in the past taking the ball the opposite way. If he really wants to improve his game, he needs to work on these things. I think his mindset is that if he changes his approach he will miss out on the homeruns. However, his brute strength and his awesome eye at the plate will not ever allow him to stop hitting homeruns. He only needs to make minor adjustments like hitting the ball where it is pitched to take it the opposite way

Been saying that for years.:beerme:

TRF
01-30-2007, 01:13 PM
Thank you EdAbbs, glad someone gets the point on this!

Except Marty doesn't just say he should be there. He says I give up on him.

That speaks volumes to listeners.

Yachtzee
01-30-2007, 01:28 PM
I just don't see how anyone can compare 1 great season by Ryan Howard to 1 bad season of Adam Dunn. Even in a bad season, Dunn still out-performed a lot of players. As has already been stated on this thread and many others, Dunn is what he is.

One problem that I have with Marty is that he makes statements without one ounce of time spent in actually trying to figure out if his opinions are based on fact, or if it's all just his perception. The other problem with Marty is that if anyone ever had the guts to present Marty with evidence that he is, in fact, wrong about someone, he blows them off and makes snarky comments about them rather than looking at the evidence and admitting he was wrong.

Add to that the fact that he's so far biased against Dunn that even when Dunn has a "professional" at-bat and does exactly as Marty has called for him to do, Marty has found ways to denigrate Dunn's performance. How many "meaningless" HRs did Dunn hit? Were they "meaningless" because Dunn hit them at the wrong time, or were they "meaningless" because Reds pitching gave up too many runs? Or were they "meaningless" because no one had the decency to get on base in front of Dunn? Or because the rest of the team failed to score runs to make those HRs "meaningful?"

Maybe Dunn and Marty could come to an agreement where Dunn would hustle out to the field if Marty would give some deference and respect to those who offer views supported by evidence that differs from his own and give Dunn props when Dunn's at-bats have a positive outcome.

As for Dunn's defense, I agree with those who believe that his LF defense can be solved by moving him to 1B.

DoogMinAmo
01-30-2007, 01:28 PM
I'd trade Marty to the Braves for Skip Carrey in a second. Skip is all about chicks and barbeque.

mmmmmmm....barbeque.

Go to Hooters for the food, eh?

I have just come to expect things like this from Marty, and then smile with shivers and goosebumps when he makes a call like he did for Adam's Walk off GS.

jimbo
01-30-2007, 01:30 PM
Except Marty doesn't just say he should be there. He says I give up on him.

That speaks volumes to listeners.

"I am pretty close to giving up on Adam Dunn." No where does he say that he has given up on him.

I think it's funny at times at how this forum shows a level of hatred towards anyone outside of the forum, who shows a strong opinion on something that is not of the majority here. I do not agree at all with Marty's opinion here, but I have no problem with his opinion even though I do not agree with it.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 01:33 PM
Marty is who is he is at this point. He isn't going to change and he certainly isn't going to subject his perceptions to objective evidence to the contrary. You either live with it or turn off the radio.

durl
01-30-2007, 01:35 PM
It's disappointing to hear Marty speak this way. I have no problem with him saying things like "Dunn needs to work on cutting back on strikeouts," or "it would be good to see him shorten his swing at times," but to say he's ready to give up on a player is a bit over the line to me.

I completely agree that it's hard to be Babe Ruth and Tony Gwynn at the same time. The trend seems to be that if you hit for average, you stand a good chance of cutting back on your power. Honestly, I could stand giving up 10 HR a year if it meant increasing his RBI count by 20 and improving his OBP.

RedsManRick
01-30-2007, 01:38 PM
Marty is conflating legitimate concerns with unrealistic expectations. The point he's making in regards to Dunn not reaching his potential seem fair to me. Are strikeouts the problem? Not really. Does Dunn look about 30 pounds heavier on already big frame? Does to me. Could that potentially be tiring him out and/or making him a less effective fielder. Seems reasonable. Sure, 50/130 is a big stretch -- but the fact that we can see Dunn doing that make a sub .900 OPS all the more frustrating.

At this point in his career, Dunn is more akin (in terms of run production) to a Carlos Lee than a David Ortiz. We want, if not expect, a regular MVP caliber player and are getting "just" a solid guy. If 5 years from now Homer Bailey is putting up a 4.20 ERA and winning 12-14 games a year, that will be very valuable to the Reds. It doesn't mean we won't be hoping for more.

After a few years of a plateaued level of production, I think Marty's frustration is reasonable. Does he go a bit too far? I suppose so, but that's his right.

durl
01-30-2007, 01:38 PM
I do not agree at all with Marty's opinion here, but I have no problem with his opinion even though I do not agree with it.

If you disagree, doesn't it mean that you DO have a problem with his opinion?

TRF
01-30-2007, 01:51 PM
"I am pretty close to giving up on Adam Dunn." No where does he say that he has given up on him.

I think it's funny at times at how this forum shows a level of hatred towards anyone outside of the forum, who shows a strong opinion on something that is not of the majority here. I do not agree at all with Marty's opinion here, but I have no problem with his opinion even though I do not agree with it.

try listening to Marty when Dunn K's. Now listen to Marty when one of his favorites (Like Aurilia) GIDP.

The utter disgust in Marty's voice speaks volumes. Dunn isn't his type of player. Therefore he has little use for him.

RANDY IN INDY
01-30-2007, 01:51 PM
Marty is conflating legitimate concerns with unrealistic expectations. The point he's making in regards to Dunn not reaching his potential seem fair to me. Are strikeouts the problem? Not really. Does Dunn look about 30 pounds heavier on already big frame? Does to me. Could that potentially be tiring him out and/or making him a less effective fielder. Seems reasonable. Sure, 50/130 is a big stretch -- but the fact that we can see Dunn doing that make a sub .900 OPS all the more frustrating.

At this point in his career, Dunn is more akin (in terms of run production) to a Carlos Lee than a David Ortiz. We want, if not expect, a regular MVP caliber player and are getting "just" a solid guy. If 5 years from now Homer Bailey is putting up a 4.20 ERA and winning 12-14 games a year, that will be very valuable to the Reds. It doesn't mean we won't be hoping for more.

After a few years of a plateaued level of production, I think Marty's frustration is reasonable. Does he go a bit too far? I suppose so, but that's his right.

I think Marty's opinion is based on what he see's, day in, day out with Adam Dunn. He is around the ballclub much more than anyone here. I think he probably see's how Dunn goes about his business at the ballpark, and away from it, particularly on the road. I think he see's a guy, who he believes, can be "extra special," and really not wanting to put forth the little extra to be that. I think it frustrates him, just as is does many others. Dunn is very talented. Very capable, and probably is getting by on a lot of very special God given ability and he's happy with doing nothing more. Doesn't make him a bad player, (far from it, and quite productive) but it leaves a lot of us wondering, "What could be?"

Krusty
01-30-2007, 01:53 PM
I think Marty's opinion is based on what he see's, day in, day out with Adam Dunn. He is around the ballclub much more than anyone here. I think he probably see's how Dunn goes about his business at the ballpark, and away from it, particularly on the road. I think he see's a guy, who he believes, can be "extra special," and really not wanting to put forth the little extra to be that. I think it frustrates him, just as is does many others. Dunn is very talented. Very capable, and probably is getting by on a lot of very special God given ability and he's happy with doing nothing more. Doesn't make him a bad player, (far from it, and quite productive) but it leaves a lot of us wondering, "What could be?"

I agree. Marty sees things the rest of us don't because he is around the club everyday 162 games a year. And if you look at Dunn he really hasn't improved on his numbers the past three years.

registerthis
01-30-2007, 01:55 PM
You know, I've typically tried to deflect some of the anti-Marty attitudes that run rampant on this board. Part of it is out of nostalgia for the man I grew up listening to, and who played a large role in me becoming a Reds fan. The other part is that there are times--even to this day--when he shows why he was considered one of the best broadcasters in the game.

But his comments about Dunn are simply beyond disappointing. I don't think I can recall a player who has been taken to the woodshed as much as Dunn has been. Even if he were traded tomorrow, Dunn would rank amongst the most prolific home run hitters anr run producers this team has ever seen, and yet the only things you hear said about him are those criticisms as to what he DOESN'T do.

Don't get me wrong, he's far from a perfect player--and no one is arguing that he is. He's got some significant holes in his swing, and his defense is passable at best. But the Pujols and Howard-type players only come around every so often, and if Dunn's greatest sin is that he isn't Albert Pujols, we should all be so lucky to be so blameless.

Marty has all but given up on Dunn? After reading these comments, I've all but given up on Marty.

Chip R
01-30-2007, 01:56 PM
I posted a thread in the minor league forums a week or two ago about Jay Bruce. It was the Dayton Dragon's Locker room show where they spoke to Jay Bruce via telephone. Bruce said that in the offseason he has worked out with Adam Dunn. He said that they've worked out (then) the past seven weeks and that Adam Dunn is simply a monster in the weight room. Bruce, I believe is around 6'3" 215-220. He's no small kid. He said that Adam Dunn simply has "natural" strength. He said that Dunn wouldn't even have to try and he could outlift most people. Anway, Bruce said that they have been working out together the past 7 weeks, so Adam has been working out and lifting weights. Just thought I'd let everyone know that if they didn't read that thread. It's not like Adam sits around and eats brats all day and watches TV.


Perhaps Dunn is in shape but is still overweight. I know some of you are scratching your heads at that so let me explain. I haven't had a chance to see him up close and personal (Maybe creek knows ;) ) but I think it's possible that he's too musclebound and the extra weight affects his agility. I think M2 said something similar about Kearns when he was down in AAA a couple of years ago. Does Dunn need to carry all that muscle on his body? He had plenty of power when he was in the minors and when he first came up to the majors and he wasn't as big as he is now. People hear he's carrying 260-270 lbs on him and they automatically think he's a fat tub of goo.

texasdave
01-30-2007, 01:56 PM
[QUOTE=]. He talks about Dunn accomplishing something woy pointed out has only been done 27 times, 12 in the National League. He has no historical knowledge of the game when he makes silly assertions like that, and he raises arguments that casual fans parrot that have no basis in reality.

QUOTE]

The trouble with posting a list of how many times a certain feat has been accomplished during the history of baseball is that it does not account for the fact that aspects of the game of baseball have changed dramatically over time. While true that it has happened only 27 times, if I count correctly, it has happened 15 times since 1997. So over the last ten years it has occurred, on average, 1.5 times a year. This certainly should change the perspective on how doable this is. 50/130 nowadays is not the same as 50/130 in other baseball eras. No doubt it remains a difficult task. And saying that AD should put these numbers up on a yearly basis is wishful thinking.

RANDY IN INDY
01-30-2007, 02:00 PM
Perhaps Dunn is in shape but is still overweight. I know some of you are scratching your heads at that so let me explain. I haven't had a chance to see him up close and personal (Maybe creek knows ;) ) but I think it's possible that he's too musclebound and the extra weight affects his agility. I think M2 said something similar about Kearns when he was down in AAA a couple of years ago. Does Dunn need to carry all that muscle on his body? He had plenty of power when he was in the minors and when he first came up to the majors and he wasn't as big as he is now. People hear he's carrying 260-270 lbs on him and they automatically think he's a fat tub of goo.

The extra muscle and weight will probably affect him down the road, if it hasn't already. I'm not a big fan of excessive weight training for baseball players. Not saying you shouldn't lift, but when it starts messing up your flexibility, I have a problem with it. Not easy on the joints, either.

registerthis
01-30-2007, 02:00 PM
So over the last ten years it has occurred, on average, 1.5 times a year.

So, approximately .002% of players in a given season put up the numbers you speak of. And, as we now know, a bulk of those years the rampant use of the S-word had a whole heckuva lot to do with the numbers that were put up.

We're faulting Dunn for not achieving what only .002%, frequently drug-aided players manage to accomplish?

RANDY IN INDY
01-30-2007, 02:00 PM
[QUOTE=]. He talks about Dunn accomplishing something woy pointed out has only been done 27 times, 12 in the National League. He has no historical knowledge of the game when he makes silly assertions like that, and he raises arguments that casual fans parrot that have no basis in reality.

QUOTE]

The trouble with posting a list of how many times a certain feat has been accomplished during the history of baseball is that it does not account for the fact that aspects of the game of baseball have changed dramatically over time. While true that it has happened only 27 times, if I count correctly, it has happened 15 times since 1997. So over the last ten years it has occurred, on average, 1.5 times a year. This certainly should change the perspective on how doable this is. 50/130 nowadays is not the same as 50/130 in other baseball eras. No doubt it remains a difficult task. And saying that AD should put these numbers up on a yearly basis is wishful thinking.

Good point and good post.

M2
01-30-2007, 02:04 PM
I think Marty's opinion is based on what he see's, day in, day out with Adam Dunn. He is around the ballclub much more than anyone here. I think he probably see's how Dunn goes about his business at the ballpark, and away from it, particularly on the road. I think he see's a guy, who he believes, can be "extra special," and really not wanting to put forth the little extra to be that. I think it frustrates him, just as is does many others. Dunn is very talented. Very capable, and probably is getting by on a lot of very special God given ability and he's happy with doing nothing more. Doesn't make him a bad player, (far from it, and quite productive) but it leaves a lot of us wondering, "What could be?"

My take on Marty has long been that he makes up his own reality. He "sees" what he wants to see. For me, he's the center of a really sick eat-your-own culture around the team.

deltachi8
01-30-2007, 02:05 PM
I have thought for a while that the biggest problem Dunn will have playing in Cincinnati is that he is not Pete Rose.

Maybe I am wrong, but when many Reds fans don't see a player "hustleing like Pete" they assume he just doesn't try hard enough or doesn't care to.

I cam to the conclusion last year that the best thing for Adam might be to play someplace else. Would not be good for the Reds, but I think it would be better for him.

westofyou
01-30-2007, 02:08 PM
[QUOTE=]. He talks about Dunn accomplishing something woy pointed out has only been done 27 times, 12 in the National League. He has no historical knowledge of the game when he makes silly assertions like that, and he raises arguments that casual fans parrot that have no basis in reality.

QUOTE]

The trouble with posting a list of how many times a certain feat has been accomplished during the history of baseball is that it does not account for the fact that aspects of the game of baseball have changed dramatically over time. While true that it has happened only 27 times, if I count correctly, it has happened 15 times since 1997. So over the last ten years it has occurred, on average, 1.5 times a year. This certainly should change the perspective on how doable this is. 50/130 nowadays is not the same as 50/130 in other baseball eras. No doubt it remains a difficult task. And saying that AD should put these numbers up on a yearly basis is wishful thinking.

Good Point, but still it's a narrow path to throw the corpse on.

Since the strike there have been 14 players who have had 50/130 years. 7 of them were by Bonds, McGwire and Sosa who are now the poster children for PED's That's 50%, in that same time span 1278 players have had at least "Qualifying At Bat Totals" in the season, the 14 who have 50/130 account for 1.1% of those at bats, kick out 7 for PED's and it's 0.54% of the players.

Next I expect Marty to let me know how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.

RANDY IN INDY
01-30-2007, 02:08 PM
My take on Marty has long been that he makes up his own reality. He "sees" what he wants to see. For me, he's the center of a really sick eat-your-own culture around the team.

Everyone has a "take."

deltachi8
01-30-2007, 02:10 PM
Next I expect Marty to let me know how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.

California Angels or Los Angeles Angels?

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 02:11 PM
try listening to Marty when Dunn K's. Now listen to Marty when one of his favorites (Like Aurilia) GIDP.

The utter disgust in Marty's voice speaks volumes. Dunn isn't his type of player. Therefore he has little use for him.

I guess I just don't read that much into the inflection in his tone or how he says things.

More to the point, I don't care. I listen to Marty to hear what is going on during the game and maybe some intersting stories from baseball years past. Beyond that, who he likes and doesn't like is of very little concern to me.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 02:14 PM
I think he probably see's how Dunn goes about his business at the ballpark, and away from it, particularly on the road. I think he see's a guy, who he believes, can be "extra special," and really not wanting to put forth the little extra to be that. Then why doesn't he say those things about Dunn? He isn't afraid to say anything else about him.

McCoy's comments about Dunn made last year were just the opposite.

westofyou
01-30-2007, 02:15 PM
Also of note the 50/130 since the strike has 4 guys who have done it more then once and four who have done it once. It also happened 10 times from 1998-2001 and only 3 times since then, twice last year.

RANDY IN INDY
01-30-2007, 02:15 PM
These days, everyone who is a baseball fan should have enough exposure to the Reds through all forms of the media to make their own decision on whether players are good or bad. For those who let others decide what they think, well, you're never going to change that, and who really cares? People are going to think what people are going to think.

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 02:15 PM
I have thought for a while that the biggest problem Dunn will have playing in Cincinnati is that he is not Pete Rose.

Maybe I am wrong, but when many Reds fans don't see a player "hustleing like Pete" they assume he just doesn't try hard enough or doesn't care to.

I cam to the conclusion last year that the best thing for Adam might be to play someplace else. Would not be good for the Reds, but I think it would be better for him.

You raise a good point. The "Pete Rose Hussle Factor" definatley plays into it. Also, since so many casual fans have abondened the idea of competitive baseball in Cincy (based on attendence figures) their expections of anybody who offers the slightest chance of regaining the BRM days are going to be waaaaay overblown. Eric Davis is fragile. Griffey gets hurt purposley to get time off to play golf. Dunn gets ripped inscesanntly. Homer Bailey will save the team. Etc. etc.

It's not fair or reasonable but being casual observers at best, they are going to comment on the beyond obvious or superfical matters because it's all they know.

TRF
01-30-2007, 02:21 PM
These days, everyone who is a baseball fan should have enough exposure to the Reds through all forms of the media to make their own decision on whether players are good or bad. For those who let others decide what they think, well, you're never going to change that, and who really cares? People are going to think what people are going to think.

not everyone has MLB.TV, Extra Innings, access to espn.com, cnnsi.com etc.

And of those that do, not everyone knows about baseball prospectus, BA, TheBaseballCube.com etc.

Just because the info exists, doesn't mean everyone has access to it. What's worse is Marty is a staple. Generations of families have listened to him. And if he's spouting nonsense, believe me, he has an audience that takes it as gospel.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 02:25 PM
And if he's spouting nonsense, believe me, he has an audience that takes it as gospel.... which I could really less about. There will always be those who are willing to be deceived by nothing more than rhetoric. Marty's critical comments certainly hurt the marketing of the team and make no mistake, that's what radio broadcasts are.

I want nothing more than to see the Reds win. Marty has zero effect on whether that happens. I am more troubled by a front office that seems more schizophrenic than anything else.

TRF
01-30-2007, 02:28 PM
... which I could really less about. There will always be those who are willing to be deceived by nothing more than rhetoric. Marty's critical comments certainly hurt the marketing of the team and make no mistake, that's what radio broadcasts are.

I want nothing more than to see the Reds win. Marty has zero effect on whether than happens. I am more troubled by a front office that seems more schizophrenic than anything else.

Marty hurts marketing.

I agree.

However, marketing the club properly, not slamming your best players, does impact attendance. Which impacts payroll. Which impacts the types of FA the team looks at and the types of contracts it hands out.

So yes, though indirectly, Marty does have an on field effect, and it is a negative one.

M2
01-30-2007, 02:29 PM
These days, everyone who is a baseball fan should have enough exposure to the Reds through all forms of the media to make their own decision on whether players are good or bad. For those who let others decide what they think, well, you're never going to change that, and who really cares? People are going to think what people are going to think.

I couldn't agree more on the first point. On the second point the difficulty it creates is that you're not really talking to someone about what they think about a player or the game, you're talking to someone who's turned themselves into a proxy for someone else's opinion. I'm not really sure how to respond to someone who insists Adam Dunn is a lazy ne'erdowell and they know that because they saw it on the radio.

texasdave
01-30-2007, 02:30 PM
So, approximately .002% of players in a given season put up the numbers you speak of. And, as we now know, a bulk of those years the rampant use of the S-word had a whole heckuva lot to do with the numbers that were put up.

We're faulting Dunn for not achieving what only .002%, frequently drug-aided players manage to accomplish?

I am not faulting anyone. I was just trying to put things in a better perspective. IMO if Adam Dunn puts up a 50/130 that would probably be his career season.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 02:33 PM
I'm not really sure how to respond to someone who insists Adam Dunn is a lazy ne'erdowell and they know that because they saw it on the radio.... the amusing part is that Marty has not even said those things. The people who hold that opinion are simply conjecturing from other things Marty has actually said.

M2
01-30-2007, 02:34 PM
... which I could really less about. There will always be those who are willing to be deceived by nothing more than rhetoric. Marty's critical comments certainly hurt the marketing of the team and make no mistake, that's what radio broadcasts are.

I want nothing more than to see the Reds win. Marty has zero effect on whether that happens. I am more troubled by a front office that seems more schizophrenic than anything else.

Though I sometimes wonder if the Reds front office believes that Marty and those who take his opinions as gospel constitute public opinion. It often seems to me the Reds are acting on false assumptions, trying to please a phantom fan base.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 02:34 PM
I am not faulting anyone. I was just trying to put things in a better perspective. IMO if Adam Dunn puts up a 50/130 that would probably be his career season.as it would for just about every player(not named Ruth or on steriods) in the entire history of baseball.

TRF
01-30-2007, 02:36 PM
I couldn't agree more on the first point. On the second point the difficulty it creates is that you're not really talking to someone about what they think about a player or the game, you're talking to someone who's turned themselves into a proxy for someone else's opinion. I'm not really sure how to respond to someone who insists Adam Dunn is a lazy ne'erdowell and they know that because they saw it on the radio.

But these are the people Marty has get drinking the Kool-Aid. And these people have kids. and have friends that are casual fans. And when the preach bile by proxy, it hurts the marketing efforts of the FO, and in turn hurts attendance. There is no reason the Reds should draw the way they do. They have the best 1-2 starters in the division, one of the best power hitters in the division, and an exciting infield. 6 years of losing has a stigma, yes, but Marty certainly isn't helping.

M2
01-30-2007, 02:36 PM
... the amusing part is that Marty has not even said those things. The people who hold that opinion are simply conjecturing from other things Marty has actually said.

Well, I would point to the post that started this thread as evidence to the contrary. Marty's a first-class noosemaker.

M2
01-30-2007, 02:39 PM
But these are the people Marty has get drinking the Kool-Aid. And these people have kids. and have friends that are casual fans. And when the preach bile by proxy, it hurts the marketing efforts of the FO, and in turn hurts attendance. There is no reason the Reds should draw the way they do. They have the best 1-2 starters in the division, one of the best power hitters in the division, and an exciting infield. 6 years of losing has a stigma, yes, but Marty certainly isn't helping.

He's certainly helped suppress enthusiasm for the potential cure to the team's six-year losing malady, namely young players with raw talent.

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 02:41 PM
But these are the people Marty has get drinking the Kool-Aid. And these people have kids. and have friends that are casual fans. And when the preach bile by proxy, it hurts the marketing efforts of the FO, and in turn hurts attendance. There is no reason the Reds should draw the way they do. They have the best 1-2 starters in the division, one of the best power hitters in the division, and an exciting infield. 6 years of losing has a stigma, yes, but Marty certainly isn't helping.

Except that they've stunk for the past 6 years, and in general since the early 80's.

Except that most casual fans consider the Reds just one of a laundry list of entertainment choices available instead of a "premier desitation"

Except for the antics of OBrian, Allen, Linder, Bowden and Schott.

membengal
01-30-2007, 02:42 PM
He's certainly helped suppress enthusiasm for the potential cure to the team's six-year losing malady, namely young players with raw talent.

Spot. on.

westofyou
01-30-2007, 02:43 PM
as it would for just about every player(not named Ruth or on steriods) in the entire history of baseball.

Here's the Reds list of 130 RBI Guys



1 Deron Johnson 1965 616 130
2 George Foster 1977 615 149
3 Frank Robinson 1962 609 136
4 Johnny Bench 1970 605 148
5 Ted Kluszewski 1954 573 141

Yachtzee
01-30-2007, 02:43 PM
These days, everyone who is a baseball fan should have enough exposure to the Reds through all forms of the media to make their own decision on whether players are good or bad. For those who let others decide what they think, well, you're never going to change that, and who really cares? People are going to think what people are going to think.

My problem with it is that Marty's job is to paint a picture of the game for those who can't see it. Now, I don't want someone in the booth who is going to mindlessly drone on, describing each play without adding any "color" to it. But by the same token I don't want someone in there who is going to constantly editorialize about this player or that player. If Marty or anyone else wants to do that, do it during the post-game show. Sure if a guy makes a bad play or does something stupid, he shouldn't sugarcoat it. But when a player hits a home run or makes a good play, I want to hear about it. I don't want to hear about the 10 gripes you have with the guy's play.

Lets compare Marty with Vin Scully. I know, Vin is in a class all his own, but still, lets just take a look at something Vin does that really sets him apart. When Vin calls a game, if he's not talking about the play on the field, he's often giving the listeners an interesting fact about a player or telling a story that humanizes him. With Vin, we like listening to baseball, because we feel like its a wonderful game played by human beings.

Marty, on the other hand, will give you goose bumps when someone does something truly incredible. However, he displays little interest in routine plays and gets downright beside himself with poor play. With Marty, baseball players are expected to be paragons of "playing it the right way" and any deviation from that is considered imperfect and worthy of disdain.

Redsland
01-30-2007, 02:44 PM
I wonder if he's given up on Edwin Encarnacion.

dsmith421
01-30-2007, 02:45 PM
He's certainly helped suppress enthusiasm for the potential cure to the team's six-year losing malady, namely young players with raw talent.


Well said. Marty's whipping boys over the past few years almost precisely correspond to our most talented youngsters.

It's like he's forgotten that at some stage Perez, Bench, Concepcion, Larkin, et al were rookies and made stupid mistakes.

RANDY IN INDY
01-30-2007, 02:46 PM
My problem with it is that Marty's job is to paint a picture of the game for those who can't see it. Now, I don't want someone in the booth who is going to mindlessly drone on, describing each play without adding any "color" to it. But by the same token I don't want someone in there who is going to constantly editorialize about this player or that player. If Marty or anyone else wants to do that, do it during the post-game show. Sure if a guy makes a bad play or does something stupid, he shouldn't sugarcoat it. But when a player hits a home run or makes a good play, I want to hear about it. I don't want to hear about the 10 gripes you have with the guy's play.

Lets compare Marty with Vin Scully. I know, Vin is in a class all his own, but still, lets just take a look at something Vin does that really sets him apart. When Vin calls a game, if he's not talking about the play on the field, he's often giving the listeners an interesting fact about a player or telling a story that humanizes him. With Vin, we like listening to baseball, because we feel like its a wonderful game played by human beings.

Marty, on the other hand, will give you goose bumps when someone does something truly incredible. However, he displays little interest in routine plays and gets downright beside himself with poor play. With Marty, baseball players are expected to be paragons of "playing it the right way" and any deviation from that is considered imperfect and worthy of disdain.

I've never cared for Vin Scully, but that's just me. Matter of fact, he drives me crazy after about two innings.

M2
01-30-2007, 02:47 PM
Except that they've stunk for the past 6 years, and in general since the early 80's.

1985-2000 wasn't so bad. In those 16 seasons the Reds fielded 10 winning teams and one .500 club. But for the strike in '94 they'd have won three divisions over that stretch to go with the one-game playoff with the Mets in '99. I could live with that on a loop.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 02:48 PM
Baseball is a sport whose followers tend to love hustle, both faux(like running to your position or running to first on a walk) and real. People seem to think that somehow effort will trump talent(when the exact opposite is generally true). They love the "little guy" like Freel whose small body is much less effected by the exertion and pounding(it's simple physics) than the big guy.

Same way that Shaq gets derided for being overweight, lazy and not hustling up and down the floor. When the truth it takes a mot more effort and energy to move that body up down the floor.

In the course of a 162 game season I would think the smart play would be to conserve energy whenever possible rather than getting involved in "hustle" that does nothing to help enhance the chances of winning.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 02:49 PM
Here's the Reds list of 130 RBI Guys



1 Deron Johnson 1965 616 130
2 George Foster 1977 615 149
3 Frank Robinson 1962 609 136
4 Johnny Bench 1970 605 148
5 Ted Kluszewski 1954 573 141

and only one hit 50 HRs to boot.

Reds1
01-30-2007, 02:51 PM
what, truth hurt? I dont see anything Marty said that I dont believe in as well. I like Dunn, havent gave up on him, but fully understand where Marty is coming from


I agree totally. Someone finally points out the truth. It's not what he is - it's what he could be. I hope Adam gets some fire and is the leader of this team. If not he'll be one of those all or nothing guys. Exciting, but in the end not the guy to take us to the playoffs. I'll be rooting for him of course!

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 02:52 PM
In the course of a 162 game season I would think the smart play would be to conserve energy whenever possible rather than getting involved in "hustle" that does nothing to help enhance the chances of winning.

I think people who are expected to work hard every day for their paycheck expect that others, who are making a much larger paycheck, to work hard for theirs also.

Whether it be faux or real hustle, people naturally are going to deride the guy who appears to be loafing while making $10,000,00 a year while they grind out $60,000/year. It's not fair, it's not realistic, and it's not accurate (ignores all of the behind the sceens work) but it's also totally understandable.

And good luck convincing joe 6-pack otherwise.

membengal
01-30-2007, 02:54 PM
I agree totally. "Someone finally points out the truth."

Leaving aside for the moment the fact that you call that "truth", you apparently don't listen to Marty's game calls. At all. There is no "finally" about this. It is part of a systemic and on-going campaign of obfuscation from Brennamen about Dunn.

Redsland
01-30-2007, 02:54 PM
Whether it be faux or real hustle, people naturally are going to deride the guy who appears to be loafing while making $10,000,00 a year while they grind out $60,000/year.
So why does Marty get a pass?

Yachtzee
01-30-2007, 02:55 PM
I've never cared for Vin Scully, but that's just me. Matter of fact, he drives me crazy after about two innings.

Fair enough. But is that because of the way he calls the game, his voice, or an ingrained dislike for all things Dodgers?

As a kid, I didn't like him much because I disliked all things Dodgers. My only experience with him was on NBC Game of the Week. It wasn't until we took a trip to California when I got to hear him on the radio. I remember my dad driving us through the Mojave Desert, listening to Vin Scully call a Dodgers game on the radio. It was the first time I actually enjoyed listening to a ballgame that didn't involve the Reds.

deltachi8
01-30-2007, 02:55 PM
Same way that Shaq gets derided for being overweight, lazy and not hustling up and down the floor. When the truth it takes a mot more effort and energy to move that body up down the floor.



Joey: You are Kareem! I've seen you play! My dad's got season tickets.
Murdock: I think you should go back to your seat now, Joey. Right, Clarence?
Oveur: No, he's not bothering anyone, let him stay here.
Murdock: All right, but just remember, (pointing to name badge)my name is Roger Murdock. I'm an airline pilot.
Joey: I think you're the greatest, but my dad says you don't work hard enough on defense. (Murdock rolls his eyes) And he says that lots of times, you don't even run downcourt. And that you don't really try, except during the playoffs.
Murdock: The hell I don't! (looks around at the others in the cockpit, then grabs Joey by his shirt and pulls him closer) Listen, kid. I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night. Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes.

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 02:56 PM
1985-2000 wasn't so bad. In those 16 seasons the Reds fielded 10 winning teams and one .500 club. But for the strike in '94 they'd have won three divisions over that stretch to go with the one-game playoff with the Mets in '99. I could live with that on a loop.

The casual fan has a very short memory. They remember world series rings not a winning season from 11 years ago where they came in 3rd (for example).

You'd be happy with that continuous loop because you understand the difficulty of growing/obtaining tallent, keeping said tallent, getting the best team within your finincial constraints, injuries and the vaguries of luck.

The casual fan doesn't understand all of this. They see grown men playing a game and making oodles of cash doing it and judge things accordingly.

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 03:00 PM
So why does Marty get a pass?

Because the wants and expectations of the causal (radio) baseball fan are totally different than the wants and expectations of a bunch of "baseball geeks" (myself included) on an interent forum who represent one bazillionth of the listening audiance.

The casual fans, evidently, are happy or Marty's employment would end. Since they are the target audience, and the folks on RZ are not, I'd say he's meeting the expections of his audience not ours.

Not to mention, Marty doesn't make $10,000,000/yr to hit a ball.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 03:02 PM
I agree totally. Someone finally points out the truth. It's not what he is - it's what he could be. I hope Adam gets some fire and is the leader of this team. If not he'll be one of those all or nothing guys. Exciting, but in the end not the guy to take us to the playoffs. I'll be rooting for him of course!a lot of the same things being said about Dunn were being said about Lee until he had the breakout 2005 season with the Cubs. The reason you keep hoping because if and when they put it together the potential upside exceeds that of all but a handful of players.

I think the large majority who criticize(who would K every single AB) have no clue about how exceedingly difficult it is to hit major league pitching or play in 162 games in a season.

Will Dunn have a breakout year and put it altogether or is he doomed to be a 40HR 250AVG 170K guy for the neat future?

Nobody knows the answer and people like to make suppositions like, "the reason he hasn't is because he is fat and lazy". He is simply a catalyst for criticism because of the fact that he doesn't measure up to preconceived notions of what he should be.

Caveat Emperor
01-30-2007, 03:06 PM
Not to mention, Marty doesn't make $10,000,000/yr to hit a ball.

He gets paid to talk about somebody else doing it -- that's a helluva lot easier.

RANDY IN INDY
01-30-2007, 03:07 PM
Fair enough. But is that because of the way he calls the game, his voice, or an ingrained dislike for all things Dodgers?

As a kid, I didn't like him much because I disliked all things Dodgers. My only experience with him was on NBC Game of the Week. It wasn't until we took a trip to California when I got to hear him on the radio. I remember my dad driving us through the Mojave Desert, listening to Vin Scully call a Dodgers game on the radio. It was the first time I actually enjoyed listening to a ballgame that didn't involve the Reds.

Well, I've never much liked anything about the Dodgers, outside of Koufax who I really respect, but it's not so much the thing with Scully. I think he is rather "vanilla" and his act just wears on me after a while. I really didn't like him on the Game of the Week, and I have listened to him frequently on MLB Extra Innings. There is just something about his style that I really don't care for. I know I am in the minority here, and everything I have ever heard about Vin Scully, as a person, says nothing but that the man exudes class.

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 03:12 PM
He gets paid to talk about somebody else doing it -- that's a helluva lot easier.

I'd agrue that the casual, joe-6pack thinks it's easier to hit the ball than talk for 3 hours.

I'm going all Dr. Phill here, but here's my thought process. Lots and lots and lots of people have played baseball as a kid. They have the (false) perception that it's an easy game, hitting a ball is no problem, etc. Why, they hit 2 doubles off of 11 year old Johnny Winters way back when!

At the same many people are afraid of public speaking. The idea of talking to hundreds of thousands of people, for 3 hours, would cripple them.

But that's a tangent. The central theme remains the casual fan uses a vastly different measuring stick when looking at ball players than the englightened baseball nut. Consequently, Dunn, unfairly, gets penelized for not measuring up to what they expect.

Yachtzee
01-30-2007, 03:16 PM
I found a picture of Marty, Bronson Arroyo, and Dunn all together.

http://dvdmg.com/princessbridepic4.jpg

Inigo: He's climbing the rope. And he's gaining on us.

Vizzini: Inconceivable! FASTER!

Fezzik: I thought I was going faster.

Vizzini: YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THIS COLOSSUS, YOU WERE THIS
GREAT LEGENDARY THING, AND YET HE GAINS!

Fezzik: Well, I'm carrying three people, and he's got only
himself.

Vizzini: I DO NOT ACCEPT EXCUSES! I'M JUST GOING TO HAVE TO
FIND MYSELF A NEW GIANT, THAT'S ALL.

Fezzik: Don't say that, Vizzini. Please?

Vizzini: DID I MAKE IT CLEAR THAT YOUR JOB IS AT STAKE?

M2
01-30-2007, 03:41 PM
The casual fan has a very short memory. They remember world series rings not a winning season from 11 years ago where they came in 3rd (for example).

You'd be happy with that continuous loop because you understand the difficulty of growing/obtaining tallent, keeping said tallent, getting the best team within your finincial constraints, injuries and the vaguries of luck.

The casual fan doesn't understand all of this. They see grown men playing a game and making oodles of cash doing it and judge things accordingly.

Well, I agree the past six years has probably caused a certain amount of amnesia.

Though if the Reds were a generally good team, like they were from 1985-2000, then I think you'd see a generally contented fan base. The Reds were in the top 4 in NL attendance in 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991 and 1992. The strike really hurt the franchise, more than most (that's where no marketing bit them in the keister), but Reds fans certainly seemed to like following a franchise that usually finished first or second in the division and stood out as a serious contender heading into most seasons.

It's not like those were simpler times. Hal McCoy was fabricating cocaine stories about one of the team's biggest stars back then and the Reds manager was getting banned for life from the game for gambling. But generally good teams have a way of quieting the din. The extra wins tend to stand as proof of effort, even if they're not.

pedro
01-30-2007, 03:46 PM
I'd trade Marty to the Braves for Skip Carrey in a second. Skip is all about chicks and barbeque.

mmmmmmm....barbeque.


and liquor, can't forget the liquor.

membengal
01-30-2007, 03:47 PM
I found a picture of Marty, Bronson Arroyo, and Dunn all together.

http://dvdmg.com/princessbridepic4.jpg

Inigo: He's climbing the rope. And he's gaining on us.

Vizzini: Inconceivable! FASTER!

Fezzik: I thought I was going faster.

Vizzini: YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THIS COLOSSUS, YOU WERE THIS
GREAT LEGENDARY THING, AND YET HE GAINS!

Fezzik: Well, I'm carrying three people, and he's got only
himself.

Vizzini: I DO NOT ACCEPT EXCUSES! I'M JUST GOING TO HAVE TO
FIND MYSELF A NEW GIANT, THAT'S ALL.

Fezzik: Don't say that, Vizzini. Please?

Vizzini: DID I MAKE IT CLEAR THAT YOUR JOB IS AT STAKE?


That is an absolutely classic post. First rate. Made my day.

pedro
01-30-2007, 03:48 PM
One thing is for sure. Marty's going to have another crappy season.

Matt700wlw
01-30-2007, 04:20 PM
One thing is for sure. Marty's going to have another crappy season.

I see.

gonelong
01-30-2007, 04:21 PM
One thing is for sure. Marty's going to have another crappy season.

You can take that to the bank. However, since Thom is going to be added to the booth this year, I am going to give the Radio a fair shot again this season.

With Joe moving on, Marty with both feet firmly in surlyland, and a DVR at my disposal the days of listening to the game in the garage while I do other things are pretty much over. It saddens me, because I really miss the old Marty/Joe experience ... but I just couldn't listen to the radio broadcast last yars as it just wasn't enjoyable to me.

GL

M2
01-30-2007, 04:28 PM
I see.

Matt, just curious, do you have WLW Reds ratings listed as compared to how other teams' radio broadcasts do in their primary markets (e.g. which broadcasts gain the highest market share and which are the weakest)? I've always been curious as to whether Marty is griping into empty space or if he's got a formula that really works with the audience.

pedro
01-30-2007, 04:29 PM
I see.

true, you will get to see it.

Matt700wlw
01-30-2007, 04:33 PM
Matt, just curious, do you have WLW Reds ratings listed as compared to how other teams' radio broadcasts do in their primary markets (e.g. which broadcasts gain the highest market share and which are the weakest)? I've always been curious as to whether Marty is griping into empty space or if he's got a formula that really works with the audience.


I could probably get them if I asked around (I may work on that), but I do know we're doing quite well.

Having a 50,000 watt powerhouse as the flagship definitely does nothing but help. Being heard in 38 states and 13 Canadian Provinces doesn't hurt either.

Matt700wlw
01-30-2007, 04:34 PM
true, you will get to see it.

I think it's more opinion. That's the joy of opinions.

You may think he has a bad year, because he doesn't say what you want him to say, while others will think he has another great year for speaking his mind and not "sugar coating" things. I think you know which boat I'm on. Always have been...it has nothing to do with what I do.

pedro
01-30-2007, 04:38 PM
I think it's more opinion. That's the joy of opinions.

You may think he has a bad year, because he doesn't say what you want him to say, while others will think he has another great year for speaking his mind and not "sugar coating" everything.

It'll just be another year of Marty pretending it's all about him and not about the Reds. Honestly, he likes complain about players not trying hard enough or doing things the "right way" when he's been mailing it in for years. Cracks me up. Too bad too, because he still has a great set of pipes and can do a good job when he isn't picking on whoever that months whipping boy is or talking about his golf game.

M2
01-30-2007, 04:40 PM
I could probably get them if I asked around (I may work on that), but I do know we're doing quite well.

Having a 50,000 watt powerhouse as the flagship definitely does nothing but help. Being heard in 38 states and 13 Canadian Provinces doesn't hurt either.

I'm not so much concerned with gross numbers or the reach of the signal, I'm more interested in the market share inside the team's primary market (basically the local Arbitron ratings as compared to the other 29 teams in MLB).

Matt700wlw
01-30-2007, 04:46 PM
I'll see if I can find anything out.

It would be pretty cool to know!

RANDY IN INDY
01-30-2007, 04:47 PM
I think it's more opinion. That's the joy of opinions.

You may think he has a bad year, because he doesn't say what you want him to say, while others will think he has another great year for speaking his mind and not "sugar coating" things. I think you know which boat I'm on. Always have been...it has nothing to do with what I do.

:beerme:

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 04:48 PM
It'll just be another year of Marty pretending it's all about him and not about the Reds. Honestly, he likes complain about players not trying hard enough or doing things the "right way" when he's been mailing it in for years. Cracks me up. Too bad too, because he still has a great set of pipes and can do a good job when he isn't picking on whoever that months whipping boy is or talking about his golf game.

Thank the lord nothing like that ever takes place here at RZ.

When you say he's been "mailing it in for years" what exactly does that mean? I'm asking serriously.

Because I've been listening to him for as long as I can remember. Frankly, I think he's been better the past few years than ever. He's been telling more "behind the baseball sceens" stories, being making more jokes and genreally seems much more relaxed than ever. I've posted several times that I've been at the ballpark listening on the radio and comparing what I see to what I hear. I'm hard pressed to find a difference between the two.

George Anderson
01-30-2007, 04:51 PM
Thank the lord nothing like that ever takes place here at RZ.

When you say he's been "mailing it in for years" what exactly does that mean? I'm asking serriously.

Because I've been listening to him for as long as I can remember. Frankly, I think he's been better the past few years than ever. He's been telling more "behind the baseball sceens" stories, being making more jokes and genreally seems much more relaxed than ever. I've posted several times that I've been at the ballpark listening on the radio and comparing what I see to what I hear. I'm hard pressed to find a difference between the two.

I agree, I dont see how Marty has been "mailing it in for years" either. Now he has gotten incredibly surley in his old age but I have never doubted his efforts behind the mike.

TRF
01-30-2007, 04:56 PM
I think it's more opinion. That's the joy of opinions.

You may think he has a bad year, because he doesn't say what you want him to say, while others will think he has another great year for speaking his mind and not "sugar coating" things. I think you know which boat I'm on. Always have been...it has nothing to do with what I do.

I'd say it has more to do with what you do, and where you do it than you think. I've got a few years in the media business as well (19 of them in fact) to back that assertion up.

I don't have any idea how much you like or even know Marty. But I can see in every post about him how much you respect him.

But none of your posts refute anything I have stated. Not once. Marty has a general negative vibe concerning young ballplayers. It's clear he makes statements about Dunn that have no basis in reality. His rants about EE's defense, including the one where he said he'd bench EE until he proved he could handle 3B defensively (how he could do that from the bench is beyond me) make me wonder how Marty treated Larkin in his first year, or how he would have treated a young Mike Schmidt.

Sometimes it's just time for a guy to either recognize his view is not consistent with the facts or move on. Maybe that decision should be made for him.

pedro
01-30-2007, 05:06 PM
Thank the lord nothing like that ever takes place here at RZ.

When you say he's been "mailing it in for years" what exactly does that mean? I'm asking serriously.

Because I've been listening to him for as long as I can remember. Frankly, I think he's been better the past few years than ever. He's been telling more "behind the baseball sceens" stories, being making more jokes and genreally seems much more relaxed than ever. I've posted several times that I've been at the ballpark listening on the radio and comparing what I see to what I hear. I'm hard pressed to find a difference between the two.

He'll go for long stretches where he's not even paying attention to the game, telling some story about some freaking golf outing he was on. Frankly I could care less about Marty and his buddies. If he wants to have a "coffee klatch" let him get a talk show, he's supposed to be announcing the game, not pimping Mart Brennaman, local celebrity.

Honestly, I think having Thom around might help him stay focused. We'll see.

Chip R
01-30-2007, 05:06 PM
I'm not so much concerned with gross numbers or the reach of the signal, I'm more interested in the market share inside the team's primary market (basically the local Arbitron ratings as compared to the other 29 teams in MLB).


This is just my speculation but I'd guess they are pretty high. With the relative lack of TV games available over the past several years, people have to listen to the games somehow. Then you have the folks who watch it on TV but mute the sound and listen to it on the radio. I have no idea what other markets are like but it seems most of them have a lot more of their games on TV - especially free TV - and there probably would only be a few who would rather listen to the game than watch it - or they mute the sound on the TV and listen on the radio.

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 05:10 PM
He'll go for long stretches where he's not even paying attention to the game, telling some story about some freaking golf outing he was on. Frankly I could care less about Marty and his buddies. If he wants to have a "coffee klatch" let him get a talk show, he's supposed to be announcing the game, not pimping Mart Brennaman, local celebrity.

Honestly, I think having Thom around might help him stay focused. We'll see.

I guess it boils down to personal taste. I listen on the radio regularly and have never gotten lost or couldn't figure out what was going on. Over the course of 2to3 hours of broadcast, I think I'd be bored to tears if it were a non-stop droning about everything between the lines.

Since you hate the golf talk it probably seems much longer to you than it really is. Since I don't really care it probably seem much less noticable than it really is.

registerthis
01-30-2007, 05:11 PM
I am not faulting anyone. I was just trying to put things in a better perspective. IMO if Adam Dunn puts up a 50/130 that would probably be his career season.

It would be one of the elite seasons in all of baseball. 50/130 is exceptionally rare, as your own point shows.

I'm really not trying to pick on you or your point, but if people are *expecting* Dunn to hit 50 HRs and drive in 130, that would vault him into the rarest of rare air in this game. In the meantime, we have a player who is putting up numbers at a rate that practically no Red before him ever has. I'm not sure what about that has caused Marty to "give up" on him.

Matt700wlw
01-30-2007, 05:11 PM
I've always respected him, and always was a fan of his style and his approach....ever since I can remember. The fact that I know him now and work with him is something I never thought would happen.

I don't agree with everything he says...like the EE stuff. I think EE needs to play, because he can't improve without playing...even though the defensive lapses did get frustrating at times.

I just think sometimes people don't want him to voice his opinion, like Adam Dunn. I don't really see what he said about Dunn was that inaccurate. We've been waiting for Dunn's light bulb to go off for, I don't know how long. He really hasn't gotten any better, especially defensively, and I'm beginning wonder if he ever will. Does he work as hard as he should? Does he stay in shape? Does he really WANT to get better? Fair questions. I hope he answers all of them for the good....and if he does, I promise you, Marty will credit him.

The non-baseball stuff doesn't really bother me, either. It never has. I may understand a little more of it now, than some, because I'm more familiar with the people he's referring to. However, this stuff comes often during blowouts, and when nothing is really going on. When something, that is essential to the "painting the picture" of the actual game takes place.....you won't miss it. A 3-1 pitch with no outs, in an 8-1 game isn't all that important. A base hit into center that loads the bases and brings the tying run to the plate is important....you will never miss that.

I like that edge Marty brings...always have. Some people don't, and that's cool, too.....

It's fun to debate, regardless :)

Sea Ray
01-30-2007, 05:22 PM
I think the gist of Marty's comments is that Dunn is not giving 100%. If he saw dedication in Dunn like weighing close to what he did as a rookie, he'd probably accept 40 HRs and 90 RBIs.

Now that he's being paid 8 figures, Ken Griffey Jr territory, it's fair to expect more out of him. I can accept his numbers as a whole but I have a really hard time with his Sept numbers. No way a 40 HR guy making $10mill/yr can go thru a Sept pennant race with just a few RBIs. I mean to tell you, we needed him. We were in the race up until the 161st game. We were very close and we weren't asking him to steal a base or make a spectacular catch to help the team. We needed him to drive in some runs. He was God awful horrible when we needed him most and I think that more than anything else has hurt his standing among baseball scouts and talent evaluators.

Now, if he shows up in a month, cut like a fitness trainer, talking about how he studied films of his ABs this winter, I'll be impressed that he "gets it". Otherwise I'll be concerned that he feels his Sept performance was acceptable.

TRF
01-30-2007, 05:25 PM
I've heard Marty, on a number of occasions say that both FeLo and WMP had poor work ethics.

I've read numerous articles quoting players, coaches, scouts and GM's that say the opposite. You don't come back from the kind of injury FeLo had without a fantastic work ethic.

Danny Serafini
01-30-2007, 05:25 PM
Having a 50,000 watt powerhouse as the flagship definitely does nothing but help. Being heard in 38 states and 13 Canadian Provinces doesn't hurt either.

Canada doesn't even have 13 provinces. ;)

Red Leader
01-30-2007, 05:28 PM
Canada doesn't even have 13 provinces. ;)

Well, with the exchange rate and all....

M2
01-30-2007, 05:32 PM
The non-baseball meanderings aside (and they're bowel-clenchingly awful), Marty seems to have made a conscious choice to follow an industry trend in radio, making his work more about personality than substance. Marty's unvarnished truth-teller schtick couldn't be farther away from the reality of what it is. What he does is run each and every game through a Brand Marty filter, giving you, the lucky listener, the world according to Marty. It's a media affliction from Howard Stern to Bill O'Reilly to any "Morning Zoo" idiot you care to name to any FM jock who doesn't have the good sense to shut up and hit the play button for the next song.

What's really happening on the field has to be hammered into mini segments like "Marty's got something to say about that" and "Pete Rose knew better." The game essentially has become a vehicle for Marty's act. There's a significant and not very subtle difference between broadcasting the game with some personality and making the game subservient to your personality.

In Marty's defense, the radio industry's gone that way. I don't think much of it. I'd rather not hear the game at all than have to listen to that sort of self-indulgent garbage. Yet there's no arguing that it's proven popular with certain audience segments, on certain topics and in certain markets. Has Marty's act made the Reds a relatively strong baseball radio broadcast market or has he alienated a lot of folks who'd like more of a focus on the game? I could see it working either way. Like I said, I'd love to see the Reds' numbers relative to other teams.

edabbs44
01-30-2007, 05:33 PM
RBI is a team dependent stat that requires someone actually be on base for you to get the gaudier numbers. It also helps when you aren't hitting 6th and getting a BB because the pitcher would rather face Valentin or LaRue or Castro god forbid. Why anyone would complain (Marty) bacause Adam Dunn is only averaging 42 HR's a season is beyond me.

Excuses, excuses. True RBI is a team dependent stat...but it's also about putting the ball in play and getting hits when those runners are in scoring position. Hitting .221 in those opportunities isn't going to help those RBI totals, no matter what the team around you is doing.

And I know people are going to say that there is no such thing as clutch or whatever...but facts are facts. Pujols had less chances than Dunn with RISP last season and had 45 more RBI. I'm not saying Dunn has to be Pujols, but that tells you something.

Matt700wlw
01-30-2007, 05:35 PM
Canada doesn't even have 13 provinces. ;)

I should have just said "half of Canada" (which is accurate - maybe not geographically exact)...


Who cares about Canada?!?! :D

Red Leader
01-30-2007, 05:37 PM
Has Marty's act made the Reds a relatively strong baseball radio broadcast market or has he alienated a lot of folks who'd like more of a focus on the game? I could see it working either way.

Great post, as usual, M2.

I agree. I think it works both ways. There are some folks that enjoy what Marty does and their are others that are rubbed the wrong way by it and would like him to focus on the game. I'll be interested to see what impact Thom has on all of this. Could he cause a shift more to one side of the fanbase than the other. I think he could. I'm hoping he causes a shift back closer to the middle, though.

M2
01-30-2007, 05:38 PM
I've heard Marty, on a number of occasions say that both FeLo and WMP had poor work ethics.

I have it from Wily Mo's Boston PT that he's got one of the best work ethics of any professional athlete you're likely to meet.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 05:39 PM
Even at age 80+ plus it is clear that Scully does his homework before games. His has interesting stories, stats, and observations about not only the hometown boys but also the opponents. That kind of information died a long time ago in the Reds radio booth.

Chip R
01-30-2007, 05:39 PM
I've heard Marty, on a number of occasions say that both FeLo and WMP had poor work ethics.

I've read numerous articles quoting players, coaches, scouts and GM's that say the opposite. You don't come back from the kind of injury FeLo had without a fantastic work ethic.

That talk seemed to have started after they were traded.

Redsland
01-30-2007, 05:41 PM
True RBI is a team dependent stat...but it's also about putting the ball in play and getting hits when those runners are in scoring position. Hitting .221 in those opportunities isn't going to help those RBI totals, no matter what the team around you is doing.

And I know people are going to say that there is no such thing as clutch or whatever...but facts are facts.
Adam Dunn's OPS in 2006:

RISP: .923
Bases Empty: .862

flyer85
01-30-2007, 05:42 PM
Adam Dunn's OPS in 2006:

RISP: .923
Bases Empty: .862:bang:

Obviously you have not learned the lesson that BARISP is the most important stat in baseball.

TRF
01-30-2007, 05:47 PM
Excuses, excuses. True RBI is a team dependent stat...but it's also about putting the ball in play and getting hits when those runners are in scoring position. Hitting .221 in those opportunities isn't going to help those RBI totals, no matter what the team around you is doing.

And I know people are going to say that there is no such thing as clutch or whatever...but facts are facts. Pujols had less chances than Dunn with RISP last season and had 45 more RBI. I'm not saying Dunn has to be Pujols, but that tells you something.

No question Dunn slumped hard in the second half of 2006. No question at all. Well, really it was just August and September as July was a monstrous month for him.

So he started slumping when a ton of the team offense started playing games in a different city. When his best friend was traded. When other teams started to see that he and MAYBE Aurilia were the only threats offensively.

Slumps happen. Anyone wanna tell me the last time Marty said something like "Adam Dunn has been on fire for the last two months. He has carried this offense."

Because in June and July, he did just that.

edabbs44
01-30-2007, 05:49 PM
:bang:

Obviously you have not learned the lesson that BARISP is the most important stat in baseball.

How did I know some of us were going to get all snippy about my post?

The was an insinuation that was made regarding Dunn's RBI totals and how that is primarily dependent on your team. I responded to it. Now let's all blow my comment out of proportion b/c it was a negative comment about Dunn.

True, Dunn's OPS was better with RISP than bases empty, but for the most part, walks don't knock in runs with RISP.

In fact, Dunn didn't walk with the bases loaded in 2006, so none of his 40 walks in 176 PAs actually knocked in a run.

So, IN THIS CONVERSATION, Dunn's OPS with RISP is bogus AS IT RELATES TO RBI since none of his walks knocked in a run. Pay attention to his BA with RISP, as this would be the stat mostly driving his RBI total for 2006.

Thanks.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 05:53 PM
So, IN THIS CONVERSATION, Dunn's OPS with RISP is bogus AS IT RELATES TO RBI since none of his walks knocked in a run. Pay attention to his BA with RISP, as this would be the stat mostly driving his RBI total for 2006.

I didn't realize walks were the only component of OPS, I stand corrected.

:D

BRM
01-30-2007, 05:53 PM
True, Dunn's OPS was better with RISP than bases empty, but for the most part, walks don't knock in runs with RISP.


Walks don't typically drive in runs but SLG certainly does.

SLG w/none on: .503
SLG w/RISP: .529

Adam Dunn's overall line was better with RISP than with none one in 2006. That's probably hard for some to believe but it's a fact.

Red Leader
01-30-2007, 05:54 PM
Double post. See below.

edabbs44
01-30-2007, 05:55 PM
I didn't realize walks were the only component of OPS, I stand corrected.

Again, the snippiness.

Walks made up a large component of his OPS in those instances. Therefore, his OPS would look like he should have driven in more runs in those instances. Not really the case since his BA was putrid.

Red Leader
01-30-2007, 05:56 PM
True, Dunn's OPS was better with RISP than bases empty, but for the most part, walks don't knock in runs with RISP.


So you're suggesting that Dunn should have swung at more pitches outside of the strike zone rather than take a walk when there were RISP? That should help him cut down his K's.

edabbs44
01-30-2007, 05:57 PM
[QUOTE=edabbs44;1234780]
True, Dunn's OPS was better with RISP than bases empty, but for the most part, walks don't knock in runs with RISP.
[QUOTE]

So you're suggesting that Dunn should have swung at more pitches outside of the strike zone rather than take a walk when there were RISP? That should help him cut down his K's.

Here we go again...

Nowhere, in any post I have ever made, was this stated.

Someone spoke of the fact that Dunn's RBI totals were team dependent.

I said that maybe his RBI totals would be better if he hit over .221 with RISP.

Nice try at munipulating my post though.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 05:58 PM
Walks made up a large component of his OPS in those instances. 40 out of 176 is a large component. Either I just don't get this new math or I misunderstand the meaing of "large".

edabbs44
01-30-2007, 05:59 PM
Walks don't typically drive in runs but SLG certainly does.

SLG w/none on: .503
SLG w/RISP: .529

Adam Dunn's overall line was better with RISP than with none one in 2006. That's probably hard for some to believe but it's a fact.

SLG doesn't help as much as BA does. A runner is in scoring position b/c a single, for the most part, will get them home. A single or double, a lot of the time, work the same in these situations.

edabbs44
01-30-2007, 06:01 PM
40 out of 176 is a large component. Either I just don't get this new math or I misunderstand the meaing of "large".

Wow...I have no idea what you are trying to say. Re-read my posts and you'll probably see what I am gunning for here.

BRM
01-30-2007, 06:01 PM
Brandon Phillips had the same number of RBI's in RISP situations as Adam in two more at-bats. Brandon hit .297 with RISP, Adam hit .221. How could they possibly end up with the same RBI total with such a large disparity in BA? Probably because Adam outslugged him .529 to .457.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 06:02 PM
Wow...I have no idea what you are trying to say. Re-read my posts and you'll probably see what I am gunning for here.I know exactly what you are "gunning for".

flyer85
01-30-2007, 06:02 PM
Brandon Phillips had the same number of RBI's in RISP situations as Adam in two more at-bats. Brandon hit .297 with RISP, Adam hit .221. How could they possibly end up with the same RBI total with such a large disparity in BA? Probably because Adam outslugged him .529 to .457.Don't start bring objective data into this argument, it is only going to confuse the issue.

It is obviously a statistical anomaly that cannot be explained.

BRM
01-30-2007, 06:03 PM
SLG doesn't help as much as BA does. A runner is in scoring position b/c a single, for the most part, will get them home. A single or double, a lot of the time, work the same in these situations.

There is no gaurantee a single scores a runner like Hatteberg or Sean Casey from second base. A double certainly would do the trick.

Red Leader
01-30-2007, 06:03 PM
Here we go again...

Nowhere, in any post I have ever made, was this stated.

Someone spoke of the fact that Dunn's RBI totals were team dependent.

I said that maybe his RBI totals would be better if he hit over .221 with RISP.

Nice try at munipulating my post though.


I see what you're saying, but if he's not getting pitches to hit, then what's he supposed to do, swing anyway? I'm sure Dunn's RBI totals would be better if he hit better than .221 with RISP, but the fact that his OBP in those situations is so high leads me to believe that a lot of pitchers weren't giving him many pitches per AB to hit.

I'm not going to defend Adam Dunn to my death because we've already gone over all of this time and time again. There are areas he needs to improve to be sure, but when the man is being pitched around, I'm perfectly fine with him showing patience and walking vs swinging at a pitch he can't drive.

TRF
01-30-2007, 06:07 PM
And once again a thread is diverted to Dunn's BA instead of the topic at hand... In this case Marty and his comments about players.

M2
01-30-2007, 06:13 PM
SLG doesn't help as much as BA does. A runner is in scoring position b/c a single, for the most part, will get them home. A single or double, a lot of the time, work the same in these situations.

SLG helps more than BA does. It correlates to RBIs far better than BA. It's not even close. RBIs are largely a function of SLG. High BA guys who can't buy an RBI are as common as dandelions (they're known as slap hitters). Dunn's main RBI problem last season in fact was that his SLG was way too low (by about 50 points).

Redsland
01-30-2007, 06:15 PM
And once again a thread is diverted to Dunn's BA instead of the topic at hand... In this case Marty and his comments about players.
Well, in the OP, Marty was quoted as saying, "I don't think Dunn is going to change his approach." Since then, a lot of us have chimed in and basically said, "good."

Wheelhouse
01-30-2007, 06:17 PM
Bravo Marty! Hits the nail on the head. I'm surprised there isn't more stat guano in this thread though. You don't need prose guys. Just digits!

The ignorance of some of the posters is made clear by the referral to "team-dependant" stats. News flash: every situation, and therefore every outcome, is team-dependent. Nothing in baseball occurs in a vacuum.

But how refreshing that our Hall of Famer Marty still calls it as he sees it! It's great to be a Reds fan!

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 06:23 PM
I wonder how much of Marty's view of "work ethic" and "how a game should be played" has been collored by being intown for the BRM years (which, IIRC, Marty was 33 or so when he came to town. Certinally a heady experience for a youngster).

That could certinally stamp a worldview into ones mind.

TRF
01-30-2007, 06:30 PM
Bravo Marty! Hits the nail on the head. I'm surprised there isn't more stat guano in this thread though. You don't need prose guys. Just digits!

The ignorance of some of the posters is made clear by the referral to "team-dependant" stats. News flash: every situation, and therefore every outcome, is team-dependent. Nothing in baseball occurs in a vacuum.

But how refreshing that our Hall of Famer Marty still calls it as he sees it! It's great to be a Reds fan!

I was the team dependent stat guy in this thread. Thanks for pointing out how ignorant I am.


Nothing in baseball occurs in a vacuum.

Dunn's Solo HR's and his OBP say hi.


But how refreshing that our Hall of Famer Marty still calls it as he sees it! It's great to be a Reds fan!

Too bad he doesn't know what he is looking at.

OnBaseMachine
01-30-2007, 06:31 PM
I'm close to giving up on Marty. Check that, I already have. Marty...you sir, are a complete jackass.

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 06:36 PM
Brennaman: "They have got some problems. When (general manager) Wayne Krivsky says we have one spot in the (pitching) rotation open because I am satisfied with Bronson Arroyo, Aaron Harang, Eric Milton and Kyle Lohse, I ask myself, 'Did he see something last year out of the three and four starters (Milton and Lohse ) that I didn't see?'

"I am not a big Eric Milton guy. I think essentially what we have seen out of him the first two years is what he's all about and why anybody believes he is going to be better in 2007 than he was in 2005 and 2006, I don't understand. He might be one of those guys when he's in his option year that something magically happens and he becomes a better player, but I would be surprised at that.

I take it people wern't as upset over Marty being negative, opinionated and "telling it like it is" over this part of the story?

Caveat Emperor
01-30-2007, 06:36 PM
The ignorance of some of the posters is made clear by the referral to "team-dependant" stats. News flash: every situation, and therefore every outcome, is team-dependent. Nothing in baseball occurs in a vacuum.

Dunn can't drive runners in if nobody ahead of him gets on base. Therefore his RBI totals depnd, in part, on the actions of other members of his team (as opposed to HRs, where every other hitter could go 0-fer and Dunn could still be 3-3 with 3 HR).

How is that not, by definition, team dependant?

Rex Argos
01-30-2007, 06:37 PM
LtlAbner--

Is that "Ask A Ninja" in your avatar? He's a genius!

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 06:38 PM
LtlAbner--

Is that "Ask A Ninja" in your avatar? He's a genius!

:thumbup:

Highly recommended stuff if you like fast paced, somewhat random and off-the-wall humor.

Matt700wlw
01-30-2007, 06:38 PM
I take it people wern't as upset over Marty being negative, opinionated and "telling it like it is" over this part of the story?

I doubt it...because they disagree.

I guess if they agree, that means he's right.

TRF
01-30-2007, 06:41 PM
I take it people wern't as upset over Marty being negative, opinionated and "telling it like it is" over this part of the story?

It's pretty hard not to notice a steaming pile of crap like Eric Milton has been. But then he's bad by Marty's simple metrics of ERA, W's and L's.

But can Marty tell me why EZ is a better pitcher than Milton, and was a better pitcher for most of last year until he got hurt?

M2
01-30-2007, 06:41 PM
I take it people wern't as upset over Marty being negative, opinionated and "telling it like it is" over this part of the story?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't like Marty's comments about Milton any better than I do his comments about Dunn even if I do happen to agree with them. I don't think the Reds' game announcer should be grousing about the team's players in public.

TRF
01-30-2007, 06:44 PM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't like Marty's comments about Milton any better than I do his comments about Dunn even if I do happen to agree with them. I don't think the Reds' game announcer should be grousing about the team's players in public.

ding, ding. I'd rep you twice if I could.

Taking Milton as an example, and better yet EZ. Harping on these players, whether their performance warrants it or not is bad business. Saying things like I don't think this player will ever get it is bad business.

Not understanding a players value, then slamming him is even worse.

edabbs44
01-30-2007, 06:44 PM
SLG helps more than BA does. It correlates to RBIs far better than BA. It's not even close. RBIs are largely a function of SLG. High BA guys who can't buy an RBI are as common as dandelions (they're known as slap hitters).

Twisting yet again.

OK, for the last time:

Someone mentioned that RBI totals are team dependent.

I said that if Dunn had performed better with RISP, then his RBI would have been better.

Then his OPS with RISP was brought up.

I said that, since there was a large walk component of his good OPS, that shouldn't really matter when we talk about RBI.

Then his SLG with RISP was brought into the equation.

Then I said that SLG with RISP shouldn't carry too much weight, since in a lot of instances a single is as good as a double.

Agreed that SLG correlats to RBI more than BA...but I was thinking that a single is just as good, IN A GOOD NUMBER OF INSTANCES WITH RISP, as a double or triple.

Then everything got twisted, as it always does.

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 06:44 PM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't like Marty's comments about Milton any better than I do his comments about Dunn even if I do happen to agree with them. I don't think the Reds' game announcer should be grousing about the team's players in public.

Fair enough.

But that seems like a fine tightrope to walk between not grousing and being a homer.

TRF
01-30-2007, 06:46 PM
Fair enough.

But that seems like a fine tightrope to walk between not grousing and being a homer.


Marty is in the broadcasters wing of the HOF.

by now he should be able to walk that tightrope blindfolded.

westofyou
01-30-2007, 06:50 PM
Guano, highly prized as an effective fertilizer or gunpowder ingredient due to its high levels of phosphorus and nitrogen.

Otherwise known as something useful, yet disregarded by some.

M2
01-30-2007, 06:50 PM
Twisting yet again.

OK, for the last time:

Someone mentioned that RBI totals are team dependent.

I said that if Dunn had performed better with RISP, then his RBI would have been better.

Then his OPS with RISP was brought up.

I said that, since there was a large walk component of his good OPS, that shouldn't really matter when we talk about RBI.

Then his SLG with RISP was brought into the equation.

Then I said that SLG with RISP shouldn't carry too much weight, since in a lot of instances a single is as good as a double.

Agreed that SLG correlats to RBI more than BA...but I was thinking that a single is just as good, IN A GOOD NUMBER OF INSTANCES WITH RISP, as a double or triple.

Then everything got twisted, as it always does.

My guess is a single is roughly 50% as effective as a double with a runner on 2nd. You've also failed to take into account the possibility of runners on 1B while others are in scoring position, who would get counted into RISP totals if the come around to score. If the hitter happens to hit a homer he'll also count in his own RISP RBI totals. If you dig into it, you'll find RISP RBI totals correlate to RISP SLG totals pretty well and not necessarily well to RISP BA totals. So nothing got twisted, you just didn't take the full picture into account.

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 06:52 PM
Marty is in the broadcasters wing of the HOF.

by now he should be able to walk that tightrope blindfolded.

Ok, let me be more accurate.

I'm not sure I could take a team specific broadcaster serriously if they never complains/comments negativley/says something with a dissapointed tone, etc about a player's performance on their team.

They would most definatley fall into "homer" status. Nuxie, god bless him, usually has a hard time making a negative comment about the Reds no matter how horrific the play on the field. He just refuses to do it and in those situations, frankly, I loose respect for him.

Whether you like Marty or not, I'm not sure having a sterille broadcast devoid of any judgement of the quality of play on the field would be entertaining in the least.

Matt700wlw
01-30-2007, 06:56 PM
Marty only does it because he cares. It's more than a job for him.

He's passionate about this team as we are.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 06:56 PM
This is real simple, there a a number of statistics that correlate with RiSP success than BA. I can only assume that the reason BA was chosen was an oversight and not an attempt to find data that fits the supposition. BARISP fails in two areas. 1) BA tells us nothing about the type of hit 2)RISP provides less than complete information about where the runners actually where.

saying "a single is as good as a double" is a complete red herring. A double is ALWAYS better than a single.

The supposition that Dunn is not good with RISP may be true. However, BARISP is not a statistic that tells you much about it.

TRF
01-30-2007, 06:56 PM
Whether you like Marty or not, I'm not sure having a sterille broadcast devoid of any judgement of the quality of play on the field would be entertaining in the least.

I never said it would be. But Marty isn't doing what you are saying he is.


I am pretty close to giving up on Adam Dunn.

Regardless of what he says after this line, it's the one with the shock value, and it's the one people will remember.

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 07:00 PM
Harping on these players, whether their performance warrants it or not is bad business. Saying things like I don't think this player will ever get it is bad business..

I can't imagine a single person making plans to go see a game and changing their mind because Marty said something bad about the team.

I also can't imagine someone looking at a sub .500 record and horrific baseball and and thinking it was hot stuff until Marty burst their bubbles with negative news.

As a salesperson, my customers would never take me serriously if I claimed every last one of my products was wonderfull. Fact is, we have some real turkey's in our product list. I've told customers to not use them and either consider a different one of our products, or use a competitor. In nearly every case my overall sales at these customers has increased.

Whether you feel his comments are factual or not is a different issue. But strictly looking at the idea that being negative is bad business, I can't say I agree with that notion.

westofyou
01-30-2007, 07:02 PM
Marty only does it because he cares. It's more than a job for him.

He's passionate about this team as we are.

In the Eighties, during the Pallone incident.

http://www.workbenchmedia.com/marty.gif

flyer85
01-30-2007, 07:03 PM
Marty only does it because he cares. It's more than a job for him.

He's passionate about this team as we are.then I would say he needs to start bashing ownership and the front office, that is where the real problems are.

I wonder why he doesn't do that?

registerthis
01-30-2007, 07:05 PM
Guano, highly prized as an effective fertilizer or gunpowder ingredient due to its high levels of phosphorus and nitrogen.

Otherwise known as something useful, yet disregarded by some.

:D

Touche'.

westofyou
01-30-2007, 07:06 PM
then I would say he needs to start bashing ownership and the front office, that is where the real problems are.

I wonder why he doesn't do that?

Same article in 88
http://www.workbenchmedia.com/marty2.gif

M2
01-30-2007, 07:07 PM
Fair enough.

But that seems like a fine tightrope to walk between not grousing and being a homer.

Here's the difference. Marty throws around absolutes. It's become part of the radio character he's developed. Marty's ready to throw in the towel on this guy and the Reds should have traded him a year ago. Marty doesn't think this other guy will ever get any better. Marty will tell you than others can't play defense or that they fundamentally won't ever have a head for the game. He'll often use a play in the field as indicative of a guy's entire personality. I'm not asking that he blow artificial sunshine up anyone's skirts, but, for instance, why not say that Eric Milton's struggled that past two years and that in the last year of his contract he probably won't be given much leeway to struggle like that again?

He's allowed to deal in established facts and matters of record. He's got the leeway to speculate on how the team might react to a given situation based on whatever direct or indirect information he might have. Yet he doesn't have to present himself as the gatekeeper of the Reds universe. That's a choice he's made. Most other game announcers don't do that, certainly not to the degree that Marty does. He's a heavily biased announcer whose agenda too often is forcing events to conform to his pop prescriptions for how they were going to unfold.

DoogMinAmo
01-30-2007, 07:10 PM
Marty only does it because he cares. It's more than a job for him.

He's passionate about this team as we are.

This is a good point. While many of us can get disgusted and turn off the radio and do something else, he is stuck working and watching the madness first hand. I could see how that could skew someone, but I would hope a hall of famer would have thicker skin.

registerthis
01-30-2007, 07:18 PM
I can't imagine a single person making plans to go see a game and changing their mind because Marty said something bad about the team.

But maybe they sell a few less Dunn jerseys and shirts, maybe people don't tune into games as much because they think the team's star player is phoning it in, etc. There are a lot of ways that consistent criticisms of the team's star player can have a detrimental effect on the team.

Where I will disagree with some in this thread, however, is over the issue of boradcasters grousing about players. I think being overly critical of one particular player (read: Dunn) should be avoided, but I don't see how a broadcaster can avoid criticizing players completely. When he's asked about a player like Milton, what is he supposed to say? If anything, I'd say he was easy on Milton--easier than he's been on Dunn, who has performed far, far better. I, personally, don't have any interest in listening to a broadcaster who can't be bothered to point out the glaringly negative.

westofyou
01-30-2007, 07:19 PM
When Wagner was GM there was some rumblings of the Front Office having a Marty Problem.

http://www.workbenchmedia.com/marty3.gif

registerthis
01-30-2007, 07:19 PM
I'm not asking that he blow artificial sunshine up anyone's skirts, but, for instance, why not say that Eric Milton's struggled that past two years and that in the last year of his contract he probably won't be given much leeway to struggle like that again?

That doesn't sound all that different from what he DID say.

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 07:44 PM
But maybe they sell a few less Dunn jerseys and shirts, maybe people don't tune into games as much because they think the team's star player is phoning it in, etc. There are a lot of ways that consistent criticisms of the team's star player can have a detrimental effect on the team.

I think the casual fans who are likely to judge Dunn by the same measuring stick Marty is using are going to feal that way irrespective of whether he says the same thing or not.

They are going to go to one or two games a year, see Dunn strike out and drive home from the park thinking, "yep, he strikes out too much". Or if they put a lot of stock into jogging out to their positions they are going to see him trotting out and think, "yep, he's a lazy oaf".

Further, I think a far larger number of fans are going to tune out due to poor team performance rather than Marty's comments.

I guess I just don't subscribe to the idea that people form their opinions entirely based on one other persons thoughts/comments.

membengal
01-30-2007, 07:56 PM
Here's the difference. Marty throws around absolutes. It's become part of the radio character he's developed. Marty's ready to throw in the towel on this guy and the Reds should have traded him a year ago. Marty doesn't think this other guy will ever get any better. Marty will tell you than others can't play defense or that they fundamentally won't ever have a head for the game. He'll often use a play in the field as indicative of a guy's entire personality. I'm not asking that he blow artificial sunshine up anyone's skirts, but, for instance, why not say that Eric Milton's struggled that past two years and that in the last year of his contract he probably won't be given much leeway to struggle like that again?

He's allowed to deal in established facts and matters of record. He's got the leeway to speculate on how the team might react to a given situation based on whatever direct or indirect information he might have. Yet he doesn't have to present himself as the gatekeeper of the Reds universe. That's a choice he's made. Most other game announcers don't do that, certainly not to the degree that Marty does. He's a heavily biased announcer whose agenda too often is forcing events to conform to his pop prescriptions for how they were going to unfold.

This is a ridiculously on-point post. One of the best and most insightful I have ever read on here. Thanks, M2.

pedro
01-30-2007, 07:58 PM
I'm not a big fan of the way Marty is often IMO overly critical of some of the players, but really that is not my main problem with him. My problem with Marty is that IMO he has turned the Reds radio broadcast into "the marty brennaman talk show- with special guests the cincinnati reds". if I wanted to hear that kind of provincial backslapping tripe, I'd watch the local morning "wake up portland" broadcasts.

pedro
01-30-2007, 07:59 PM
oh, and M2, very eloquent appraisal IMO.

Sea Ray
01-30-2007, 08:31 PM
SLG doesn't help as much as BA does. A runner is in scoring position b/c a single, for the most part, will get them home. A single or double, a lot of the time, work the same in these situations.

Do we really have to study the minutia of stats to agree that he missed a lot of chances to drive in runs in Sept? That was Marty's point and anyone who watched the games knows that.

As for the season as a whole, If you hit 40 HRs you ought to knock in more than 92, IMO.

Sea Ray
01-30-2007, 08:38 PM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't like Marty's comments about Milton any better than I do his comments about Dunn even if I do happen to agree with them. I don't think the Reds' game announcer should be grousing about the team's players in public.

It's really amazing how much Marty has changed since he came here 30 some years ago. I found it interesting a week ago when he was on with Lance and Marty recounted his favorite call of all time. It was an extra inning walk off HR off the bat of Tony Perez in 1974. And Marty went crazy, almost like Brad Johanson (Bengals). It struck me how Marty would never call a HR like that now. He doesn't get excited like a fan anymore.

Vin Scully still uses the style he did 30 years ago. Marty's style has changed more than any announcer I can think of.

geniusMoment
01-30-2007, 08:54 PM
Marty just spent 20 minutes on SportsTalk. He criticized Dunn, and said the he would've traded Dunn to the Nationals last year over Kearns. Then said there is one player out there who would dramatically change this team. The player...one Steve Finley. Yes, soon to be 42-year-old Finley. He said he would guarantee Finley a starting spot. And he said there is no market for Dunn.

mth123
01-30-2007, 09:05 PM
I agree that the K's aren't as big of deal as people make them out to be. I also agree that Dunn brings great value to the team that most don't recognize.

Frankly, however, I hope that my superiors at my job (not that Marty is anybody's boss) would have higher expectations for me, than I have for myself. I'd also hope that they would get mad at me when they percieve I can do more with my natural tallents than my current efforts are producing. Therefore, that anybody expects more out of Dunn doesn't anger me. They are paying him the complement of saying, "he's got enough tallent to do more".

You can get hung up on the unrealsitic nature of 50/135. You can have a kneejerk reaction because Marty doesn't pepper his broadcast with stats, or is grumpy or whatever. But the fact of the matter is people see a lot of tallent in Dunn so when they see him sauntering out to his position (which I agree doesn't make one bit of difference but people judge you by what they see), being overweight, not making adjustments, they are going to call him on it.

As far as Marty's opinions swaying the casual fan. Hogwash. The casual fan is going to make these exact same judgements. Why? Because they are casual fans so things like being overweight, how many RBI's are produced, striking out is generally the depth of there understanding of the game. If they had a deeper understanding of the game, they wouldn't be casual fans. Therefore it should suprise no one that the casual fan would use such a measuring stick for Dunn, especially since he's a higher profile player.

Its ok to have high expectations. That doesbn't justify "I'm about to give up on..."

vaticanplum
01-30-2007, 09:12 PM
I'm genuinely starting to wonder if there's something odd behind Marty's beef with Dunn. He's so harsh, so often, regarding one of the team's star players that I honestly wonder if he has a personal problem with him. Because it's perfectly acceptable to say that Dunn had a down year (for him) last year and point out the areas in which he needs to improve. I agree with all of that. But it's way out of line to repeatedly use opinions as reasons for this, to say that Dunn doesn't work hard enough when EVERY OTHER SOURCE I've ever heard mentions how hard Dunn works, and to belittle or even ignore his significant contributions to the team Marty supposedly loves sooooo much. It's constant, and it is really to the point now where it doesn't make much sense. I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but I'm starting to wonder if Marty just plain doesn't like Dunn as a person for whatever reason and feels that he is perfectly at liberty to pan him as a baseball player because of it.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 09:12 PM
Then said there is one player out there who would dramatically change this team. The player...one Steve Finley. Yes, soon to be 42-year-old Finley. He said he would guarantee Finley a starting spot. Damn, I wish I was smart enough to have came up with that. The man is a genius I say, a GENIUS.:thumbup:

Make sure he brings his juice with him.

westofyou
01-30-2007, 09:14 PM
I'm genuinely starting to wonder if there's something odd behind Marty's beef with Dunn. He's so harsh, so often, regarding one of the team's star players that I honestly wonder if he has a personal problem with him. Because it's perfectly acceptable to say that Dunn had a down year (for him) last year and point out the areas in which he needs to improve. I agree with all of that. But it's way out of line to repeatedly use opinions as reasons for this, to say that Dunn doesn't work hard enough when EVERY OTHER SOURCE I've ever heard mentions how hard Dunn works, and to belittle or even ignore his significant contributions to the team Marty supposedly loves sooooo much. It's constant, and it is really to the point now where it doesn't make much sense. I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but I'm starting to wonder if Marty just plain doesn't like Dunn as a person for whatever reason and feels that he is perfectly at liberty to pan him as a baseball player because of it.

Maybe we should ask Willie Greene?

RANDY IN INDY
01-30-2007, 09:46 PM
I wonder how much of Marty's view of "work ethic" and "how a game should be played" has been collored by being intown for the BRM years (which, IIRC, Marty was 33 or so when he came to town. Certinally a heady experience for a youngster).

That could certinally stamp a worldview into ones mind.

:beerme: Those teams knew how to go about their business and were about as professional as they come. They were extremely driven and played with a purpose. To win. Those who didn't display the same purpose were not around long. Sparky had a short leash. Ross Grimsley was a case in point. He didn't buy in to Sparky's view of what the Reds should be, and he was gone very quickly. Good pitcher, but Sparky didn't want the distraction.

Someone mentioned Jerry Narron, influencing the team's work habits and I think that is a valid point, but this isn't the 70's and there is surely a lot more tolerated by managers today than those of yesteryear. That isn't to say that Sparky didn't have one set of rules for Rose, Bench, Perez and Morgan and another set for everyone else. He did. I, personally, think that managers have much less influence today than they did in years past.

gilpdawg
01-30-2007, 09:49 PM
Marty just spent 20 minutes on SportsTalk. He criticized Dunn, and said the he would've traded Dunn to the Nationals last year over Kearns. Then said there is one player out there who would dramatically change this team. The player...one Steve Finley. Yes, soon to be 42-year-old Finley. He said he would guarantee Finley a starting spot. And he said there is no market for Dunn.
Well, that settles it. Marty Brennaman is senile. Poor guy. Don't criticize him, for he knows not what he does. :D :D


Jeez, is he serious? Steve Finley? :laugh:

vaticanplum
01-30-2007, 09:57 PM
:beerme: Those teams knew how to go about their business and were about as professional as they come. They were extremely driven and played with a purpose. To win. Those who didn't display the same purpose were not around long. Sparky had a short leash. Ross Grimsley was a case in point. He didn't buy in to Sparky's view of what the Reds should be, and he was gone very quickly. Good pitcher, but Sparky didn't want the distraction.

Someone mentioned Jerry Narron, influencing the team's work habits and I think that is a valid point, but this isn't the 70's and there is surely a lot more tolerated by managers today than those of yesteryear. That isn't to say that Sparky didn't have one set of rules for Rose, Bench, Perez and Morgan and another set for everyone else. He did. I, personally, think that managers have much less influence today than they did in years past.

If Marty truly has a problem with a manager's role or the general "way the game is played" anymore (totally valid), then he has oodles of fascinating things to talk about, which can be criticisms fully rounded out by his intelligence and his experience. Zero of these things should be directed at Adam Dunn.

If that's truly his beef, he needs to address it. He's not a stupid man and if he has those kinds of problems, he must recognize that Dunn is not responsible for them. I don't buy that as an excuse for how he feels about Dunn.

cacollinsmba
01-30-2007, 09:59 PM
Perhaps we should be asking whether Marty walks or runs to the microphone.

westofyou
01-30-2007, 10:01 PM
Marty just spent 20 minutes on SportsTalk. He criticized Dunn, and said the he would've traded Dunn to the Nationals last year over Kearns. Then said there is one player out there who would dramatically change this team. The player...one Steve Finley. Yes, soon to be 42-year-old Finley. He said he would guarantee Finley a starting spot. And he said there is no market for Dunn.

Did he also suggest the Reds go to all cotton uniforms?

Dom Heffner
01-30-2007, 10:14 PM
Marty Brennanmen is so bad, so atrocious....

He jumped the shark for me a long time ago, but it was ultimately bad when he started telling people the way they should vote.

People talk about Rose being a fallen hero - Marty is one of my biggest. As a kid I loved the guy and was floating after meeting him one night in a friend's living room. I recognized who he was at 7 years old by listening to him introduce himself to me. I was that much of a Red's fan.

Oh, how I can't stand this man now.

He reminds me of Joe Morgan where there is no understanding of baseball talent.

I get tired of comparing players from what they are to what they could be.

If Bonds hits 70 homeruns, why not 80? He walks out there, his head is fat....

RANDY IN INDY
01-30-2007, 10:16 PM
If Marty truly has a problem with a manager's role or the general "way the game is played" anymore (totally valid), then he has oodles of fascinating things to talk about, which can be criticisms fully rounded out by his intelligence and his experience. Zero of these things should be directed at Adam Dunn.

If that's truly his beef, he needs to address it. He's not a stupid man and if he has those kinds of problems, he must recognize that Dunn is not responsible for them. I don't buy that as an excuse for how he feels about Dunn.

I don't think he does have a problem with the manager's role. The Big Red Machine was all about the players, and Sparky will tell you that. Those guys knew what it meant to be professionals and they didn't need Sparky to tell them how to prepare. Ultimately, players, workers, and everyone is responsible for themselves, Marty included. Marty has his opinions and is entitled to them, just the same as everyone else. He has to live with the repurcussions that occur for what he says if there are any.

Ultimately, what a person does with the abilities that are given them is totally dependent on that person taking advantage of every opportunity to succeed and be their best. Be it Adam Dunn, be it Marty Brennamen, be it anyone. I don't know how hard Adam Dunn works at his profession. Sometimes you can mistake activity for achievement. One person's all out is not the same as another's. When it all boils down, I think only Adam Dunn knows if he is truly fullfilling his potential.

Tom Servo
01-30-2007, 10:19 PM
Marty just spent 20 minutes on SportsTalk. He criticized Dunn, and said the he would've traded Dunn to the Nationals last year over Kearns. Then said there is one player out there who would dramatically change this team. The player...one Steve Finley. Yes, soon to be 42-year-old Finley. He said he would guarantee Finley a starting spot. And he said there is no market for Dunn.

:lol:

flyer85
01-30-2007, 10:20 PM
Same article in 88
http://www.workbenchmedia.com/marty2.gif

Well he throws around a lot of criticism but he sure hasn't been piling on Wayne abd Uncle Bobby. I guess they've been doing it all right.

gonelong
01-30-2007, 10:24 PM
Whether you feel his comments are factual or not is a different issue. But strictly looking at the idea that being negative is bad business, I can't say I agree with that notion.

The Reds on radio are a 4 or 5 hour commercial every night.

I am not sure how night after night of bad-mouthing your own product over the air to your extremely targeted audience could be anything but bad business.

Which other companies do you know that do this?

GL

flyer85
01-30-2007, 10:26 PM
I honestly wonder if he has a personal problem with him. Maybe he's still POed about the banana phone call. I wonder if Marty had his shirt on tonight.

flyer85
01-30-2007, 10:28 PM
I'm not a big fan of the way Marty is often IMO overly critical of some of the players, but really that is not my main problem with him. My problem with Marty is that IMO he has turned the Reds radio broadcast into "the marty brennaman talk show- with special guests the cincinnati reds". if I wanted to hear that kind of provincial backslapping tripe, I'd watch the local morning "wake up portland" broadcasts.Truer words have been written.

I can't believe you don't enjoy the Grand Master Marty B show interspersed with snippets of baseball.

Ltlabner
01-30-2007, 10:36 PM
The Reds on radio are a 4 or 5 hour commercial every night.

I am not sure how night after night of bad-mouthing your own product over the air to your extremely targeted audience could be anything but bad business.

Which other companies do you know that do this? GL

I don't agree that he spends "night after night bad-mouthing" his own product. I listen to many of the games and I just don't hear the "parade of negitivity" that folks are talking about. Yes, he gets on Dunn. At the same time he's refered to Harrangs perfromances as masterfull. He breaks bad on EE's defense but fell all over himself the time LaRue lept forward to catch a foul tip and then threw the runner out at 1B (IIRC). He blasts Weathers for always walking runners but praises EE for excelling at the plate when runners are in scoring position. He points out where the team blows a game, but goes bonkers when Dunn hits a come from behind grand slam. Or Valentin hits a game winner. Or Jr hits a game winner. Or Ross blows one over the batters-eye. He praises Freel for the amazing catches and chastises him for the boneheaded baserunning.

These are just examples pulled from my memory, on average I find him to be ballenced.

bucksfan
01-30-2007, 10:37 PM
I have just come to expect things like this from Marty, and then smile with shivers and goosebumps when he makes a call like he did for Adam's Walk off GS.

Yep, that's how I handle this stuff too....

Cedric
01-30-2007, 10:38 PM
I don't agree that he spends "night after night bad-mouthing" his own product. I listen to many of the games and I just don't hear the parade of negitivity that folks are talking about. Yes, he gets on Dunn. At the same time he's refered to Harrangs perfromances as masterfull. He breaks bad on EE's defense but fell all over himself the time LaRue lept forward to catch a foul tip and then threw the runner out at 1B (IIRC). He blasts Weathers for always walking runners but praises EE for excelling at the plate when runners are in scoring position. He points out where the team blows a game, but goes bonkers when Dunn hits a come from behind grand slam. Or Valentin hits a game winner. Or Jr hits a game winner. Or Ross blows one over the batters-eye. He praises Freel for the amazing catches and chastises him for the boneheaded baserunning.

He criticizes Adam Dunn alot. That should tell you everything you need to know.

I don't quite understand his critiques, but I'm pretty sure it causes some to lose any patience with the rest of his game calling.

membengal
01-30-2007, 11:16 PM
Marty just spent 20 minutes on SportsTalk. He criticized Dunn, and said the he would've traded Dunn to the Nationals last year over Kearns. Then said there is one player out there who would dramatically change this team. The player...one Steve Finley. Yes, soon to be 42-year-old Finley. He said he would guarantee Finley a starting spot. And he said there is no market for Dunn.

Picked up the signal briefly tonite as I was driving around and heard this as well. Almost drove off the road in shock and horror. For what it's worth, Marty confidently told Daugherty (who was hosting) that Finley was "37". Doc said, I think he's 40? And then Marty launched into how he would immediately upgrade the team and should be guaranteed a spot. If I had not heard it, I would not have believed it. Marty said the only possible reason that Finley is sitting at home is that he must be asking for too much money.

Seriously.

And, yes, he bagged on Dunn too.

BUTLER REDSFAN
01-30-2007, 11:28 PM
It's funny to read these threads over the months and years to see the same 10 or 15 people complain about everything. The arrogance is amazing. I hate Marty. Marty should go. The man has watched every facet of this team for 30+years but doesnt know what he's talking about? They hate every trade or transaction.Bowden doesnt know what he's doing,O'Brien didn't know what he was doing,now Krivsky doesnt know what he's doing on,on+on. They hate each individual line up Miley now Narron puts out. Heaven forbid you have any complaints with a star player.Lindner was a failure now Castellini is a failure. Is there anything they do right? Do any of you guys actually have anything to do with how a major league team performs their business? What made any of us such experts?!

flyer85
01-30-2007, 11:52 PM
Gosh and I thought the Reds had been losers for the last 7 years, I stand corrected. Reds management must be doing everything right.

Gainesville Red
01-30-2007, 11:53 PM
Holiday Inn Express?

cacollinsmba
01-30-2007, 11:57 PM
It's funny to read these threads over the months and years to see the same 10 or 15 people complain about everything. The arrogance is amazing. I hate Marty. Marty should go. The man has watched every facet of this team for 30+years but doesnt know what he's talking about? They hate every trade or transaction.Bowden doesnt know what he's doing,O'Brien didn't know what he was doing,now Krivsky doesnt know what he's doing on,on+on. They hate each individual line up Miley now Narron puts out. Heaven forbid you have any complaints with a star player.Lindner was a failure now Castellini is a failure. Is there anything they do right? Do any of you guys actually have anything to do with how a major league team performs their business? What made any of us such experts?!

You're not a real fan if you don't hate everything about this team. ;)

M2
01-31-2007, 12:06 AM
Picked up the signal briefly tonite as I was driving around and heard this as well. Almost drove off the road in shock and horror. For what it's worth, Marty confidently told Daugherty (who was hosting) that Finley was "37". Doc said, I think he's 40? And then Marty launched into how he would immediately upgrade the team and should be guaranteed a spot. If I had not heard it, I would not have believed it. Marty said the only possible reason that Finley is sitting at home is that he must be asking for too much money.

Seriously.

And, yes, he bagged on Dunn too.

And I'm just asking because I need to say it out loud, but doesn't Chris Denorfia play the game the right way? Isn't he straight out of the Steve Finley mold only young enough put those skills to better use? When did young players become the enemy?

It goes back to the culture comment I made earlier in this thread. How did so many people get so down on the notion of letting the kids play? It's the only thing that's going to save the franchise.

flyer85
01-31-2007, 12:11 AM
It goes back to the culture comment I made earlier in this thread. How did so many people get so down on the notion of letting the kids play? It's the only thing that's going to save the franchise.without a doubt.

There is no upside with the collection of fossils that are going to see a lot of PT this year. The young position guy and pitchers need to cut their teeth.

vaticanplum
01-31-2007, 12:26 AM
I don't think he does have a problem with the manager's role. The Big Red Machine was all about the players, and Sparky will tell you that. Those guys knew what it meant to be professionals and they didn't need Sparky to tell them how to prepare. Ultimately, players, workers, and everyone is responsible for themselves, Marty included. Marty has his opinions and is entitled to them, just the same as everyone else.

I just want to address this one point -- bolded emphasis mine -- and I'm not picking you Randy, because you make a lot of good points and I'm taking this slightly out of context, but I just happen to be kind of locked into a conversation with you and I see this point made a lot.

It's absolutely true to say that everyone is entitled to his opinion. But certain standards in certain professions absolutely require different bases for opinion than some other things do. I can say that I believe the sky is gray on what looks to you to be a perfectly clear day. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it -- just as you say.

I can beat Adam Dunn into the ground on a message board or at a bar, and that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. Makes for a better argument if I back it up with some facts, which I probably can. But Marty Brennamen, very pointedly, is not speaking on a message board or at a bar. He is paid for intelligent, well-rounded, entertaining analysis of the Cincinnati Reds. If anyone of those things drops significantly out of play, then he is, by the defintion of paid employment, subject to heavy criticism of his "opinions" due to the way he is fulfilling his duties.

I love to talk about baseball. And I'm a fairly entertaining person at times. Why am I not a broadcaster? Because I chose not to take on the responsibility and the research that such a profession entails. Most of this board could probably say the same. Marty Brennaman HAS taken on that responsibility. Because he's in the HOF, because he's the voice of the Reds, does not mean to me that he is able to legitmately give up any part of those responsibilities. I would not want him to give up his opinion. He is not there only to present the facts. But when it comes to Dunn, he continually presents his opinion, often and vehemently, with a complete absence of facts or objectivity. And I do think it's poisonous. Not to mention extremely lazy, egotistical broadcasting which can ultimately only damage the integrity of his profession, his team, and himself. I know that sounds quite lofty but I feel strongly about that. The day that we accept everyone's opinions alone -- particularly in anything related to journalism -- will be one truly chaotic day.

Saying that any person is "entitled to his opinion" is never false, but it's rarely the whole story. Lawyers, politicians, scientists, rhetoric students, and five-year-olds all express their opinions on a daily basis. yes, they're all entitled to express them. But the accountability differs greatly and takes on significant nuances in each of these people's situations.

Scrap Irony
01-31-2007, 12:32 AM
Marty continually praised EdE's hitting, in both approach and timing. He did badmouth his defensive shortcomings. EdE did indeed struggle defensively. Marty, too, raves about both Denorfia and Freel, offensively and defensively. (He does complain, rather vehemently, about Freel's oft-boneheaded baserunning gaffes.)

Does he bash Dunn?

Sure. Sometimes.

Same with Junior. For not hustling. Marty is truly the voice of Cincinnati. The midwest as a whole values hard work and hustle more highly than true talent because the midwest sees those values as important. (Generally speaking.) Marty is the voice of the fans-- the fans that listen to the radio while working on a car or shingling a house or a thousand other jobs that need to be done.

He sees in Dunn the talent that eclipses 99.99% of all baseball players ever. Let me say that again-- 99.99% of all baseball players. Ever.

The man has prodigious talent. Babe Ruth talent. Lou Gehrig talent. Albert Pujols talent.

As of yet, that talent has been shown only in weeks of hot streaks or singular extraordinary at-bats.

For four years, Marty-- and much of his listening public-- has been waiting for that talent to produce at the level he sees.

For four years, Dunn has produced well. But not to the level expected.

Now, Dunn is sliding backward. He's becoming more Frank Howard and less Frank Robinson.

That's what Marty's giving up on, I think. The idea of Dunn being that once in a generational talent that finally-- finally-- understands the game and takes advantage of his abilities.

And to dog him for his opinion is silly. It's just that-- an opinion. Is Marty especially advanced in his baseball metrics? Nope. Not at all. Neither is any other announcer I've heard on radio, including Vin Scully (who, for all the erswhile kowtowing on this board, seems to be the golden standard). He is purely midwestern in his approach and views himself as many of his fans do-- honest, straight-forward, blunt. Marty is anti-PC is a world riddled with the PC agenda.

Shrug.

Does that turn some people off? Sure. But it sure as Hell turns a lot more people in this neck of the woods on.

vaticanplum
01-31-2007, 12:42 AM
He sees in Dunn the talent that eclipses 99.99% of all baseball players ever. Let me say that again-- 99.99% of all baseball players. Ever.

The man has prodigious talent. Babe Ruth talent. Lou Gehrig talent. Albert Pujols talent.

As of yet, that talent has been shown only in weeks of hot streaks or singular extraordinary at-bats.

For four years, Marty-- and much of his listening public-- has been waiting for that talent to produce at the level he sees.

For four years, Dunn has produced well. But not to the level expected.

Now, Dunn is sliding backward. He's becoming more Frank Howard and less Frank Robinson.

That's what Marty's giving up on, I think. The idea of Dunn being that once in a generational talent that finally-- finally-- understands the game and takes advantage of his abilities.

I can accept most of that in theory. But I get a little tripped up when I wonder what exactly Marty expects from Dunn then. westofyou -- and in the past, Cyclone -- have pulled up detailed analysis from ALL of baseball history to show what company Dunn is already in -- and what almost superhuman company he would be in if he performed only a little bit better.

the "sliding backward" to which you refer so far encompasses a single season. Forgive me, Marty, if I'm not ready to give up on a newly 27-year-old baseball player who's had a single (overall solid) "sliding backward" season after a string of extraordinary ones. What does Marty want Dunn to do, smack 80 homers a year and flitter to left field on the wings of love nine times a game?

My biggest concern is not Dunn's strikeouts (they'll always be high), his batting average (it'll always be mediocre), or even his defense (it can improve; it will never be great). I am concerned about the decline in his OBP. I consider that one of his strengths; with his defensive weaknesses, he can't afford to lose one of his major strengths. But his talent and work ethic deserve one more season for me to be truly, TRULY concerned about it. That is, I assume, why he has a team option in 2008.

And none of what I'm talking about has anything to do with geography or political correctness. If any of that plays into what Marty is doing, then he needs to rethink his job description.

Yachtzee
01-31-2007, 12:58 AM
I can accept most of that in theory. But I get a little tripped up when I wonder what exactly Marty expects from Dunn then. westofyou -- and in the past, Cyclone -- have pulled up detailed analysis from ALL of baseball history to show what company Dunn is already in -- and what almost superhuman company he would be in if he performed only a little bit better.

the "sliding backward" to which you refer so far encompasses a single season. Forgive me, Marty, if I'm not ready to give up on a newly 27-year-old baseball player who's had a single (overall solid) "sliding backward" season after a string of extraordinary ones. What does Marty want Dunn to do, smack 80 homers a year and flitter to left field on the wings of love nine times a game?

My biggest concern is not Dunn's strikeouts (they'll always be high), his batting average (it'll always be mediocre), or even his defense (it can improve; it will never be great). I am concerned about the decline in his OBP. I consider that one of his strengths; with his defensive weaknesses, he can't afford to lose one of his major strengths. But his talent and work ethic deserve one more season for me to be truly, TRULY concerned about it. That is, I assume, why he has a team option in 2008.

And none of what I'm talking about has anything to do with geography or political correctness. If any of that plays into what Marty is doing, then he needs to rethink his job description.

Great couple of posts, vaticanplum. On a side note, I've been wondering to myself all day about Dunn's defensive lapses and just thought of another player named Adam known for mind-boggling defensive lapses, Adam LaRoche. I remember seeing a special on him where they talked about his battle with ADD. I wonder if Dunn just sometimes has problems maintaining focus out there in left field. LaRoche has been able to control his problem through drugs (although I think they may be on the naughty list). Just a thought.

Cedric
01-31-2007, 01:10 AM
The Reds on radio are a 4 or 5 hour commercial every night.

I am not sure how night after night of bad-mouthing your own product over the air to your extremely targeted audience could be anything but bad business.

Which other companies do you know that do this?

GL

Who cares? Over the last five years you would need Mr. Rogers to actually make that product sound good.

Wheelhouse
01-31-2007, 01:35 AM
I was the team dependent stat guy in this thread. Thanks for pointing out how ignorant I am.



Dunn's Solo HR's and his OBP say hi.



Too bad he doesn't know what he is looking at.

So the nature of the pitches Dunn sees when he does these things is not shaped by the lineup surrounding him? Wow, that shows real insight into the game.

Cyclone792
01-31-2007, 01:35 AM
He sees in Dunn the talent that eclipses 99.99% of all baseball players ever. Let me say that again-- 99.99% of all baseball players. Ever.

The man has prodigious talent. Babe Ruth talent. Lou Gehrig talent. Albert Pujols talent.

As of yet, that talent has been shown only in weeks of hot streaks or singular extraordinary at-bats.

For four years, Marty-- and much of his listening public-- has been waiting for that talent to produce at the level he sees.

For four years, Dunn has produced well. But not to the level expected.

Scrap Irony, I don't mean to single you out here as I've been trying to avoid this thread all day. But the above absolutely needs to be addressed, because I'm being honest here, if the above is the truth then it's totally absurd and terribly unrealistic.

If Marty - or any person on this earth who knows what baseball is - has a level of expectation on Adam Dunn to be Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, or any other all-time great player, then Marty - and those baseball fans - are breathing 15 million barrels of lunacy.

I'm asking myself this, and I'm not sure of the answer so I'm going to go ahead and ask you and everybody else: based on what exactly do people believe that Adam Dunn should be the next Babe Ruth? Where is this magical Dunn talent that says he absolutely should be the next Babe Ruth? And why should Marty - and any fans - rail the guy if he just doesn't happen to live up the hype that he is the next Babe Ruth?

Do Marty and Reds fans have any type of rational understanding how great and how rare legendary baseball players are?

Look, I've tried to paint Dunn in an objective light on this forum so many times I've lost count, and until now every objective viewpoint of Dunn would come across as a "Dunn defense" based on the ridiculous notion that he's not a productive hitter. He is a productive hitter, and he's accomplished a high level of success thus far in his career that's rare among baseball players. But to expect the guy to be the next Babe Ruth because people think he has the talent level of Babe Ruth is beyond comprehension. If Adam Dunn actually goes out and becomes an all-time great, it will not be because he suddenly pulled his head out of his rear end and "tapped his talent potential," or anything similar. It will only be because he would take an impossible leap of talent development midway through his career to reach that level.

How many players in the history of the Reds franchise have had the talent of Babe Ruth? Zero, and that includes Adam Dunn.

Currently, Adam Dunn has shown that at his best he's capable of reaching the talent level of a below average Hall of Fame left fielder. If he keeps doing what he's been doing for the next 10 years, then he'll quite possibly be deserving of a plaque in Cooperstown. But he'll be comparable to a guy such as Billy Williams, not a Ted Williams. There's nothing wrong with that; Billy Williams was an outstanding player in his own right and deserving of Cooperstown. If Dunn could be compared to a guy like that, I'd say he'd have put up a darn good career. Just because he wasn't Ted Williams doesn't mean the guy will turn out to be a disappointment.

Barry Larkin was a wonderful player, and he's truly a deserving Hall of Famer. But Barry Larkin was never a Honus Wagner, not even in Barry's best season. Was Barry Larkin's career a disappointment because he wasn't the second coming of Honus Wagner? Absolutely not.

Nobody should put an expectation on a player, any player, to put together a career of an all-time great, which is exactly what's happening. The type of player Marty apparently expects Dunn to be is exceptionally rare and should never be expected, no matter how much minor league dominance and hype.

If that's the level of expectation, prepare for disappointment every single time.

paintmered
01-31-2007, 01:37 AM
ding, ding. I'd rep you twice if I could.

Taking Milton as an example, and better yet EZ. Harping on these players, whether their performance warrants it or not is bad business. Saying things like I don't think this player will ever get it is bad business.

Not understanding a players value, then slamming him is even worse.

His comments suggest that people should "stay away from this team."

And that is disgraceful from the voice and public face of the Reds.

Wheelhouse
01-31-2007, 03:09 AM
Look it's real simple--do you think Dunn has the power of David Ortiz or Ryan Howard? I think he does. So does Marty. Ortiz and Howard hit over 50 HRs last year. Do you think Dunn has the ability to be in the top 5 in RBIs in MLB? I do. Marty does. And if he were in the top five he'd have more than 130 RBIs. So painting Marty's statement as historically absurd is a weak argument. Looking at it in terms of Reds who've reached those numbers is also thin logic. The post-1996 era, where the current league standards of production are set, contains some really lousy Reds teams except for '99 and last year. Of course not many Reds have produced those numbers, because the players have been pretty bad on those teams. The pre-1996 era simply didn't have the numbers league-wide that the present game has. Stop reaching guys!

Ron Madden
01-31-2007, 06:08 AM
Look it's real simple--do you think Dunn has the power of David Ortiz or Ryan Howard? I think he does. So does Marty. Ortiz and Howard hit over 50 HRs last year. Do you think Dunn has the ability to be in the top 5 in RBIs in MLB? I do. Marty does. And if he were in the top five he'd have more than 130 RBIs. So painting Marty's statement as historically absurd is a weak argument. Looking at it in terms of Reds who've reached those numbers is also thin logic. The post-1996 era, where the current league standards of production are set, contains some really lousy Reds teams except for '99 and last year. Of course not many Reds have produced those numbers, because the players have been pretty bad on those teams. The pre-1996 era simply didn't have the numbers league-wide that the present game has. Stop reaching guys!

How often do Ortiz or Howard hit 5th, 6th or 7th in the line up?

mth123
01-31-2007, 06:24 AM
I just want to address this one point -- bolded emphasis mine -- and I'm not picking you Randy, because you make a lot of good points and I'm taking this slightly out of context, but I just happen to be kind of locked into a conversation with you and I see this point made a lot.

It's absolutely true to say that everyone is entitled to his opinion. But certain standards in certain professions absolutely require different bases for opinion than some other things do. I can say that I believe the sky is gray on what looks to you to be a perfectly clear day. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it -- just as you say.

I can beat Adam Dunn into the ground on a message board or at a bar, and that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. Makes for a better argument if I back it up with some facts, which I probably can. But Marty Brennamen, very pointedly, is not speaking on a message board or at a bar. He is paid for intelligent, well-rounded, entertaining analysis of the Cincinnati Reds. If anyone of those things drops significantly out of play, then he is, by the defintion of paid employment, subject to heavy criticism of his "opinions" due to the way he is fulfilling his duties.

I love to talk about baseball. And I'm a fairly entertaining person at times. Why am I not a broadcaster? Because I chose not to take on the responsibility and the research that such a profession entails. Most of this board could probably say the same. Marty Brennaman HAS taken on that responsibility. Because he's in the HOF, because he's the voice of the Reds, does not mean to me that he is able to legitmately give up any part of those responsibilities. I would not want him to give up his opinion. He is not there only to present the facts. But when it comes to Dunn, he continually presents his opinion, often and vehemently, with a complete absence of facts or objectivity. And I do think it's poisonous. Not to mention extremely lazy, egotistical broadcasting which can ultimately only damage the integrity of his profession, his team, and himself. I know that sounds quite lofty but I feel strongly about that. The day that we accept everyone's opinions alone -- particularly in anything related to journalism -- will be one truly chaotic day.

Saying that any person is "entitled to his opinion" is never false, but it's rarely the whole story. Lawyers, politicians, scientists, rhetoric students, and five-year-olds all express their opinions on a daily basis. yes, they're all entitled to express them. But the accountability differs greatly and takes on significant nuances in each of these people's situations.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Ron Madden
01-31-2007, 06:31 AM
Thousands of Reds Fans believe that everything Marty says is the gospel truth. If that doesn't scare you try listenining to the local sportstalk shows or reading the fan forum on Reds.com. :runaway:

edabbs44
01-31-2007, 06:58 AM
My biggest concern is not Dunn's strikeouts (they'll always be high), his batting average (it'll always be mediocre), or even his defense (it can improve; it will never be great). I am concerned about the decline in his OBP. I consider that one of his strengths; with his defensive weaknesses, he can't afford to lose one of his major strengths. But his talent and work ethic deserve one more season for me to be truly, TRULY concerned about it. That is, I assume, why he has a team option in 2008.

VP...I'm not picking on you here, but since you clearly stated most of the board's concerns about Dunn, this is a good illustration about how Dunn's short-comings are sugar coated on this board:

Dunn's strikeouts aren't just high...he has the all-time record for most in a season.
Dunn's BA isn't mediocre...234 is downright LOW.
Dunn's defense isn't "not great"...it's pretty bad.

But, here's the issue with your post: Dunn's walks have remained static over the last 3 years: (108, 114, 112). It's his monsterous drop in BA (.266, .247, .234) which his driving his drop in OBP (.388, .387, .365). So if you are worried about is OBP, you are worried about his BA.

mth123
01-31-2007, 06:58 AM
Look it's real simple--do you think Dunn has the power of David Ortiz or Ryan Howard? I think he does. So does Marty. Ortiz and Howard hit over 50 HRs last year. Do you think Dunn has the ability to be in the top 5 in RBIs in MLB? I do. Marty does. And if he were in the top five he'd have more than 130 RBIs. So painting Marty's statement as historically absurd is a weak argument. Looking at it in terms of Reds who've reached those numbers is also thin logic. The post-1996 era, where the current league standards of production are set, contains some really lousy Reds teams except for '99 and last year. Of course not many Reds have produced those numbers, because the players have been pretty bad on those teams. The pre-1996 era simply didn't have the numbers league-wide that the present game has. Stop reaching guys!

So does that mean you trade away (or give up on as Marty said) a perennial 40 HR guy with a high OBP and Slugging % just because he isn't Ryan Howard or David Ortiz? Maybe he'll never be 50/130, but what he is is pretty darn productive. Why would you give up on pretty darn productive when there is no option in sight to replace that productivity? If Dunn is never anything more than what he has been, the Reds would be well suited to have him in the middle of the line-up and look elsewhere for things this team needs to fix.

So go ahead and "give-up" on Adam Dunn. Enjoy the parade of Jeff Conine's and the like playing LF and batting in the middle of the order. They'll probably play better defense in the least important defensive position on the field and strike out a little less so that we can all enjoy a few more lazy fly balls or dribblers back to the mound. That should make us all happy with 16 HR and 75 RBI while struggling to get on base at an acceptable clip in the middle of the order.

Many scoff, but at his current level Adam Dunn would be very difficult to replace. It seems to me that at least twice in fairly recent history the Reds have struggled to replace productive but flawed sluggers when George Foster ("he won't run into the wall, he doesn't care about winning") and Eric Davis ("he's never in the line-up, he doesn't really care about winning and doesn't really want to play") left town. So I'm sure that the same contingent that wanted those guys gone feel the same way about ("he doesn't run to his position and looks like he doesn't care") Adam Dunn.

If the guy is as rare a talent as you suggest we're lucky to have him. Don't we ever learn anything?

Ltlabner
01-31-2007, 07:24 AM
I was thinking about this last night as I drifted off to sleep. Yes, I am a goofball.

The claim continues to be leveled that somehow Marty is at the head of a huge army of drones that just follow his marching orders. I continue to suggest that fans have their deeply held "views" of baseball despite what Marty says. He's reinforcing them, to be sure, but not creating them.

It's been hashed out here hundreds of time. A new poster comes in with one set of ideas and over time begins to accept new ways of thinking and different ways of understanding the game. And I'd say someone who spends any amount of time here is far beyond a casual fan. And yet how often is their resistance? How often does it take repeated viewings of cold hard numbers before someone sees the light?

Its been posted here before. "I grew up thinking BA and RBI was the sole way to measure a players performance". Heck, my father, who has been going to baseball games since the late 40's/early 50's can't see beyond those 2 numbers. So why would Marty, and anybody else around that age be any different?

So it shouldn't suprise people that (1) Marty, who grew up in an era of BA/RBI, would not be hip to new ways of thinking and (2) a sea of fans out there would hold the exact same view points.

Should Marty use his position behind the mic to educate said vast sea of fans? Maybe yes, maybe no. It's hard enough to explain VORP in here where you can see the data, imagine trying to do so over the radio. Would the target audience be entertained by said "educations"? The people in here who would say "heck ya" represent a tiny gazzilionth of a sliver of the entire radio audience. Who's to say the casual fan, and that's who we're talking about here, otherwise they would be at RZ learning new ideas, would be remotley interested in understanding the game on a deeper level. There's a world of difference between enjoying the game and understanding it.

Redhook
01-31-2007, 07:52 AM
I believe there are 3 types of Reds fans:

1) The casual fan - These fans follow the Reds from time to time, go to a game or two a year, but don't care all that much what happens to them each year. Basically, they follow the team due to the fact that they live in or near Cincinnati. Most of these fans love Adam Dunn and believe he is awesome because he hits the ball far. Really far...."chicks dig the long ball."

2) The fair-weather fan - These fans will watch almost every game when the team is winning and will rarely watch when the team is losing. They love Dunn when he hits homers and believe he one of the worst players on the Reds when he strikes out. Overall, these fans are on the pessimistist side and are not fans of Dunn because of the strikeouts.

3) The diehard - These fans follow the Reds through thick and thin, hoping and praying that times will change and a good season is in the near horizon. These fans love baseball, the Reds, and understand the true value of Adam Dunn. They know the offense would suffer if he wasn't here. They also know that he could be better than he has been lately and hope he returns to good form.

I believe there is one common element in all three of the Reds fans. And that element is most Reds fans in Cincinnati are blue-collar fans who appreciate hard-work and the little things in life. This town, for whatever reason, loves hustle, i.e. Pete Rose and Ryan Freel. Dunn gets a pass from many for his so-called "laziness" because he's damn good, but for many, it's this appeared laziness that drives them crazy. It's what drives Marty crazy. He is a diehard fan that wants the Reds to win.

I believe it's the little things in life that make many of our days good or bad. I realize that from time to time the plumbing may go out, my car will need new tires, I'll need to replace my grill, I need a new t.v., etc. etc. It sucks when I have to replace or get one of those items repaired once every few years, but, it's when the sink constantly drips, when my car makes a squeaky noise one time a week, when my grill won't light and I have to manually light it, when my Time Warner cable goes off and on for hours upon hours. I realize that s*** happens. Items will need to be fixed and repaired. But, it's the little things in life that drive us crazy or make us happy. Adam Dunn, in Marty's mind, doesn't do the daily little things. It drives him crazy because he has to watch Dunn every day and that sink will just not stop dripping. I don't necessarily agree with Marty on every front, but I can see where his frustration is coming from. Blue-collar guy who appreciates the little things in life.