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hippie07
01-30-2007, 10:49 PM
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/lonniewheeler/2007/01/penny-for-your-thoughts.asp

Lonnie Wheeler has an interesting article in the Post about trading Dunn for Penny....

Food for thought.... any takers?

RedsManRick
01-30-2007, 10:54 PM
I don't necessarily agree with his conclusion (I think trading Dunn for Penny leaves us with arguably the worst offense in baseball). But it was a solid article in so far as Lonnie was up front about things.

Redhook
01-30-2007, 11:17 PM
If Ethier is included it might be worth it. With that staff, even with the depleted offense, we'd have a chance to contend this year...a little more so than now, IMO. Either way it'd still be tough. It would be awesome though to have Penny, Harang, Arroyo, and Bailey in 2008. With the money we'll have from Milton and Lohse coming off the books in 2008 we'd be able to afford a top-tier hitter and with that staff, we actually might be able to lure one here.

RedLegSuperStar
01-30-2007, 11:28 PM
If Ethier is included it might be worth it. With that staff, even with the depleted offense, we'd have a chance to contend this year...a little more so than now, IMO. Either way it'd still be tough. It would be awesome though to have Penny, Harang, Arroyo, and Bailey in 2008. With the money we'll have from Milton and Lohse coming off the books in 2008 we'd be able to afford a top-tier hitter and with that staff, we actually might be able to lure one here.

Wow.. A point not brought up yet. Factor also Dunn's proposed 13 million option that wouldn't have to be picked up. Andruw Jones maybe?

Johnny Footstool
01-30-2007, 11:38 PM
If you can get past Brad Penny's name recognition and his status as a "future ace", he's not an ace.

He's got a decent K/9, but his WHIP is way high (1.38 last season, 1.32 career) and his ERA is rising. Pitching half his games in pitchers parks (Florida and LA) is the only thing that has made him a better-than-average pitcher.

Don't get me wrong -- if he was a free agent, I'd be clamoring for Wayne to throw money at him, because *money is replaceable.* But Adam Dunn is not easily replaceable.

Krusty
01-31-2007, 10:40 AM
Instead of Either, I would rather have Kemp in a Brad Penny deal involving Dunn.

Degenerate39
01-31-2007, 07:27 PM
No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no. If we kept Kearns, Pena, and Lopez then sure I'd say trade Dunn and get another good starter but who is going to hit homers and get RBIs if we get rid of Dunn.

Dracodave
01-31-2007, 08:48 PM
This begs to ask the question.. "What if?"

If we kept Kearns and Lopez.."What if?"

What if we traded Kearns for Penny? What if we traded Kearns for Westbrook?
What if we moved Lopez to second, Phillips to short and sent Agon's money on Harrang? What if Krivisky didn't think about any of that stuff?

What if we moved on?

Jaycint
01-31-2007, 08:57 PM
No way do I trade Dunn at this point. Without his stick in the lineup this offense isn't scaring anybody at all. Package some prospects up with Freel and see if you can talk some g.m. out of a legit #2 or #3 (much more likely) and if you can't then just stand pat.

Redhook
01-31-2007, 09:41 PM
No way do I trade Dunn at this point. Without his stick in the lineup this offense isn't scaring anybody at all. Package some prospects up with Freel and see if you can talk some g.m. out of a legit #2 or #3 (much more likely) and if you can't then just stand pat.

I'm all for that, but unless we included a top prospect, which we can't afford to lose, I highly, highly doubt we'd get a legitimate #2 or #3 back back.

Spitball
01-31-2007, 10:43 PM
What if we traded Kearns for Penny?

Even if Penny has some question marks, he is a starting pitcher who started the most recent All-Star game for the National League. I can't believe Kearns comes even remotely close to bringing Penny or any other decent starting pitcher.



What if we moved Lopez to second, Phillips to short...

I don't believe Phillips is capable of playing shortstop with the proficiency the Reds (nor most teams) want from the position.


What if we moved on?

I agree.

Ravenlord
02-01-2007, 03:41 AM
I don't believe Phillips is capable of playing shortstop with the proficiency the Reds (nor most teams) want from the position.why not?

outside of his first (and only real, but way too young) stint with the Indians and this year with the Reds, Phillips has played almost exclusively at short.

Jaycint
02-01-2007, 11:50 AM
I'm all for that, but unless we included a top prospect, which we can't afford to lose, I highly, highly doubt we'd get a legitimate #2 or #3 back back.


In my opinion at this point the only prospects on the "no deal" list are Bruce and Bailey. I'd package up Freel with a Cueto or even Votto. Still not sure if that brings us back a good #3 though...

Spitball
02-01-2007, 01:01 PM
why not?

outside of his first (and only real, but way too young) stint with the Indians and this year with the Reds, Phillips has played almost exclusively at short.

Ha, I almost hate to touch this one! Lots of players have been groomed as shortstops with the hope that they will make the grade at a position that is one of the most difficult to develop. Tommy Helms, Robby Alomar, Mark Loretta and many, many others were developed as shortstops but were better suited for second base at the big league level.

Phillips is a work in progress defensively. To this point in his career, there has been an emphasis on correcting his offense, but his defensive reputation has been based more on his athletic potential rather than actual performance. This past season, Phillips seemed to have found his bat, and he made excellent strides defensively at second base. He did make quite a few errors in tough situations, though, because he still tightens up way too much on some ground balls. In other words, he loses his soft hands and fluid mechanics at times. His body tenses and it is visible. This problem is much easier to overcome at second base than it is at shortstop.

If you keep doin' what you're doin', you will keep gettin' what you've been gettin'. The Reds have been a fundamentally terrible team since the Bob Boone days and it has sabotoged almost every aspect of their game. I credit the current front office with trying to correct a problem rather than try to cover it over or ignore it. Putting Alex Gonzalez at shortstop instead of Phillips is a move toward correcting a team problem that has existed since Larkin lost his range.

Baseball Prospectus 2003 details Phillips switch to second base for the Indians:


The Indians sent Phillips to the Arizona Fall League to keep working on becoming a second baseman because Omar's under contract for another two years. There's no reason to believe Phillips can't make the switch. It may even be for the best, since he's never been an outstanding defensive shortstop, although he has the arm for the position. However, because of his stick he's rightly regarded as one of the top infield prospects in baseball. If he doesn't stick at short, his value will go down a little, but the difference between a decent shortstop with a great stick and a good defensive second baseman with a good stick isn't that huge.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
02-01-2007, 01:30 PM
In my opinion at this point the only prospects on the "no deal" list are Bruce and Bailey. I'd package up Freel with a Cueto or even Votto. Still not sure if that brings us back a good #3 though...

If your reading this, please don't deal Votto Wayne, Im begging you.

KronoRed
02-01-2007, 01:52 PM
Such a trade would be awful