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View Full Version : Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move



Eric_Davis
02-03-2007, 01:13 PM
Per Rotoworld....

Feb. 2 - 8:22 pm et

Mariners designated RHP Yorman Bazardo for assignment.

"Not a good idea. Bazardo has a better arm than half the pitchers on the Mariners' 40-man roster and just managed a 3.64 ERA as a 21-year-old in Double-A (he turned 22 in July). Bill Bavasi obviously didn't anticipate the roster crush when he added both Michael Garciaparra and potential lefty specialist Ryan Rowland-Smith to the 40-man prior to the Rule 5 draft. Both are less valuable properties than Bazardo, as is Sean White, the right-hander Seattle took from the Braves in the Rule 5 draft. We can't imagine Bazardo making it through waivers."


If he's as good as half of the pitchers on the M's roster, he's as good as half of the pitchers on the REDS'.

paintmered
02-03-2007, 01:57 PM
Time to get Wayne on the phone.

Matt700wlw
02-03-2007, 02:00 PM
Scoop him up.

Heath
02-03-2007, 03:14 PM
Yeah, scoop this guy up. Now.

Highlifeman21
02-03-2007, 03:34 PM
He won't make it to us on the waiver order.

This kid's career will now be ruined by Tampa Bay. I can't imagine them not picking him up.

jojo
02-03-2007, 03:40 PM
It's not the world's worst move.... Bazardo is a marginal prospect at best-basically he has flamed out to become a fringe minor leaguer projected for middle relief due to a dramatic loss of velocity (forget about him ever hitting 97 mph again). He could probably be useful sometime this year but we're not talking huge difference maker useful-he's basically struggling to redefine himself. He's nice depth to have in AAA...think of him as a guy for the AAAA shuttle. In this case the guy might be more useful than a few fodder monkeys clogging the Ms 40 man roster. Bottom line though, the Ms have middle relief arms that are ahead of him in the holding tank. But then again.....JJ Putz was fodder on everyone;s depth charts a few years ago too (don't count on Bazardo being that guy though).....

Buffoon is a little strong on this one....Bazardo is the type of minor league arm thats not that hard to come by....

cincinnati chili
02-03-2007, 03:49 PM
I'm not familiar with the prospect, but buffoon is probably accurate. He may be the worst GM in the majors.

pedro
02-03-2007, 06:47 PM
I'm not familiar with the prospect, but buffoon is probably accurate. He may be the worst GM in the majors.

Dayton Moore is certainly giving him a run for his money.

Topcat
02-03-2007, 07:31 PM
Dayton Moore is certainly giving him a run for his money.

But but................. but isn't Dayton from the all prestigious Braves pedigree ;)

Falls City Beer
02-03-2007, 07:41 PM
Dayton Moore is certainly giving him a run for his money.

Wow. You preach patience with Wayne, who's had 12 months, but slam Moore who's been on the job, what, 6 months? He's obviously made one horrendous pickup, but he's certainly been no worse than Wayne K or Bavasi.

pedro
02-03-2007, 08:39 PM
Wow. You preach patience with Wayne, who's had 12 months, but slam Moore who's been on the job, what, 6 months? He's obviously made one horrendous pickup, but he's certainly been no worse than Wayne K or Bavasi.

It doesn't matter how long you are on the job when you give Gil Meche a $55 million dollar contract. If Krivsky had done that any patience I have left would have evaporated.

Giving Gil Meche that contract is quite a bit more debilitating than anything Krivsky has done.

I'm not sure KC giving John Bale a 2 year 4 Million contract was a good idea either, unless he really got his act together in Japan.

Newman4
02-04-2007, 10:22 AM
But but................. but isn't Dayton from the all prestigious Braves pedigree ;)

So was Rob Bell.

Johnny Footstool
02-04-2007, 03:28 PM
It doesn't matter how long you are on the job when you give Gil Meche a $55 million dollar contract. If Krivsky had done that any patience I have left would have evaporated.

Giving Gil Meche that contract is quite a bit more debilitating than anything Krivsky has done.

I'm not sure KC giving John Bale a 2 year 4 Million contract was a good idea either, unless he really got his act together in Japan.

Some of us think the Kearns/Lopez deal was Krivsky's version of Gil Meche.

pedro
02-04-2007, 04:02 PM
Some of us think the Kearns/Lopez deal was Krivsky's version of Gil Meche.

And I'd say you're wrong. Despite your feelings about the return on the trade, or the the supposed value of Kearns & Lopez, the Reds can still acquire players without the payroll drag created by a player who makes 11 million dollars a year and who will pitch as poorly as Eric Milton. The Royals OTOH, are going to be giving roughly 15-20% of their payroll over the next 5 years to a player who simply isn't going to be able to contribute. That is way more damaging IMO.

paulrichjr
02-04-2007, 04:34 PM
I just wonder if ownership told him to make a big signing and that is why the Meche contract was done. Honestly no GM in his right mind would make that deal unless it was to "make a statement".

Red Heeler
02-04-2007, 09:35 PM
And I'd say you're wrong. Despite your feelings about the return on the trade, or the the supposed value of Kearns & Lopez, the Reds can still acquire players without the payroll drag created by a player who makes 11 million dollars a year and who will pitch as poorly as Eric Milton. The Royals OTOH, are going to be giving roughly 15-20% of their payroll over the next 5 years to a player who simply isn't going to be able to contribute. That is way more damaging IMO.

The problem for Krivsky's is that "The Trade" is another in a long list of under-trading and completely missed opportunities by those who came before him. Off the cuff, it started with Denny Nagle for Drew Henson, et al. Then came Todd Walker for Josh Thigpen and Tony Blanco. Aaron Boone for Pile O'Cash. Gabe White for Morrow Cash. Paul Wilson not traded. Junior trade scrambled by ownership. Sean Casey plus money for Dave Williams. The list goes on and on and on...

None of these preceeding trades are Krivsky's fault, but they did leave him at a disadvantage. He had to make better moves than his predecessors to be successful. He had make premium use of the few resources he had. "The Trade" was just more of business as usual.

Will M
02-04-2007, 09:50 PM
And I'd say you're wrong. Despite your feelings about the return on the trade, or the the supposed value of Kearns & Lopez, the Reds can still acquire players without the payroll drag created by a player who makes 11 million dollars a year and who will pitch as poorly as Eric Milton. The Royals OTOH, are going to be giving roughly 15-20% of their payroll over the next 5 years to a player who simply isn't going to be able to contribute. That is way more damaging IMO.

I agree 100%.

If guys like Weathers or Stanton suck we are only on the hook for a small amount of time. Meche will suck and the Royals will have their own version of Milton.

Small market teams need to give out the fat long term deals only to the very best players. Even these can sour ( ie Griffey ).

jojo
02-04-2007, 10:03 PM
It doesn't matter how long you are on the job when you give Gil Meche a $55 million dollar contract. If Krivsky had done that any patience I have left would have evaporated.

Giving Gil Meche that contract is quite a bit more debilitating than anything Krivsky has done.

I'm not sure KC giving John Bale a 2 year 4 Million contract was a good idea either, unless he really got his act together in Japan.

That argument assumes he wasn't simply doing what his boss (ownership) told him to do.

I actually think O'Brien got more grief than he deserved because:

1. alot of the worst moves under his watch (contracts to Milton, Casey, LaRue, Wilson) were him simply doiing what he was told.

2. I also think alot of the moves he didn't make were the result of ownership not letting him pull the trigger.

I'm not arguing he was a great GM, I'm just suggesting we probably don't really know enough to accurately judge his performance.

pedro
02-04-2007, 10:49 PM
That argument assumes he wasn't simply doing what his boss (ownership) told him to do.

I actually think O'Brien got more grief than he deserved because:

1. alot of the worst moves under his watch (contracts to Milton, Casey, LaRue, Wilson) were him simply doiing what he was told.

2. I also think alot of the moves he didn't make were the result of ownership not letting him pull the trigger.

I'm not arguing he was a great GM, I'm just suggesting we probably don't really know enough to accurately judge his performance.


sadly, after what happened this off season, the Milton contract doesn't look that bad.

Dracodave
02-04-2007, 10:56 PM
sadly, after what happened this off season, the Milton contract doesn't look that bad.


It just looks bad because he sticks out like a sore thumb when he gives up those homeruns.

oneupper
02-04-2007, 11:59 PM
That argument assumes he wasn't simply doing what his boss (ownership) told him to do.

I actually think O'Brien got more grief than he deserved because:

1. alot of the worst moves under his watch (contracts to Milton, Casey, LaRue, Wilson) were him simply doiing what he was told.

2. I also think alot of the moves he didn't make were the result of ownership not letting him pull the trigger.

I'm not arguing he was a great GM, I'm just suggesting we probably don't really know enough to accurately judge his performance.


A GM is supposed to be in charge of these decisions. If not given the authority to make them, he should tell his boss to take the job and "put it elsewhere". Being spineless is not an excuse, just as "just following orders" isn't an excuse for war criminals.

jojo
02-05-2007, 08:33 AM
A GM is supposed to be in charge of these decisions.


I'm not sure there are many organisations in the big leagues where the GM has absolute control over those things. All GMs have to work within the confines of ownership-imposed limits.

Johnny Footstool
02-05-2007, 10:05 AM
And I'd say you're wrong. Despite your feelings about the return on the trade, or the the supposed value of Kearns & Lopez, the Reds can still acquire players without the payroll drag created by a player who makes 11 million dollars a year and who will pitch as poorly as Eric Milton. The Royals OTOH, are going to be giving roughly 15-20% of their payroll over the next 5 years to a player who simply isn't going to be able to contribute. That is way more damaging IMO.


That's the big point of contention between us.

I think cash is a lot easier to replace than talent. Especially with all the cable money falling from the sky this past season (and possibly next season, if DirecTV has their way).

The Reds would be damaged a lot worse by another Kearns/Lopez fiasco than by another Milton contract.

PuffyPig
02-05-2007, 10:12 AM
The problem for Krivsky's is that "The Trade" is another in a long list of under-trading and completely missed opportunities by those who came before him. Off the cuff, it started with Denny Nagle for Drew Henson, et al. Then came Todd Walker for Josh Thigpen and Tony Blanco. Aaron Boone for Pile O'Cash. Gabe White for Morrow Cash. Paul Wilson not traded. Junior trade scrambled by ownership. Sean Casey plus money for Dave Williams. The list goes on and on and on...

None of these preceeding trades are Krivsky's fault, but they did leave him at a disadvantage. He had to make better moves than his predecessors to be successful. He had make premium use of the few resources he had. "The Trade" was just more of business as usual.

Trading Neagle netted us (eventually) Arroyo.

Getting out from most of Casey's contract was a great move, only getting Williams was the bad part. But we made out much better than the Pirates did on that one.

The rest of them were missed opportunities to be sure, but none of those traded really amounted to much afterwards.

Red Heeler
02-05-2007, 12:02 PM
Trading Neagle netted us (eventually) Arroyo.

Getting out from most of Casey's contract was a great move, only getting Williams was the bad part. But we made out much better than the Pirates did on that one.

The rest of them were missed opportunities to be sure, but none of those traded really amounted to much afterwards.

Neagle straight up for Arroyo would have been a bad trade. Neagle was the best starter on the market that year. He should have brought back the types of packages that folks want for Arroyo now. The fact that there were several years of non-production in between makes it worse.

Casey still had value as a player at the time of the trade. Only a freak injury made it turn out bad for the Pirates. If he had stayed healthy all year, it would have looked like the fleecing it was.

PuffyPig
02-05-2007, 02:01 PM
Neagle straight up for Arroyo would have been a bad trade. Neagle was the best starter on the market that year. He should have brought back the types of packages that folks want for Arroyo now. The fact that there were several years of non-production in between makes it worse.

Casey still had value as a player at the time of the trade. Only a freak injury made it turn out bad for the Pirates. If he had stayed healthy all year, it would have looked like the fleecing it was.

I can't agree with either statement.

We were trading 2 months of Neagle, and got back 3 years of Arroyo at a bargain price. We also had 3 years of Pena. Neagle did nothing since the trade. When you trade a known commodity for 4 players, if one turns out as good as the one you traded (but at a reduced cost), it's a great trade.

Casey at average production wasn't worth anywhere close to his salary. We paid Hatteberg about $1.5M and he (along with his platoon) produced above average Casey numbers. Simply giving Casey away would have been a good trade. Casey, at $8.5M, had little to no trade value, except for another overpaid player.

dsmith421
02-05-2007, 02:14 PM
Casey at average production wasn't worth anywhere close to his salary. We paid Hatteberg about $1.5M and he (along with his platoon) produced above average Casey numbers. Simply giving Casey away would have been a good trade. Casey, at $8.5M, had little to no trade value, except for another overpaid player.

Right, but we sent $2M to Pittsburgh in the deal and took on $1.5M in salary for Williams, who was so completely pathetic that we wrote him off.

So if you look at it as $3.5 for Casey and Williams, plus probably $1M for Hatteberg, that's really only a savings of $4M, most of which was plowed into poop futures (Womack, White, Hammond).

Eric_Davis
02-06-2007, 05:34 PM
It's not the world's worst move.... Bazardo is a marginal prospect at best-basically he has flamed out to become a fringe minor leaguer projected for middle relief due to a dramatic loss of velocity (forget about him ever hitting 97 mph again). He could probably be useful sometime this year but we're not talking huge difference maker useful-he's basically struggling to redefine himself. He's nice depth to have in AAA...think of him as a guy for the AAAA shuttle. In this case the guy might be more useful than a few fodder monkeys clogging the Ms 40 man roster. Bottom line though, the Ms have middle relief arms that are ahead of him in the holding tank. But then again.....JJ Putz was fodder on everyone;s depth charts a few years ago too (don't count on Bazardo being that guy though).....

Buffoon is a little strong on this one....Bazardo is the type of minor league arm thats not that hard to come by....

What's great is that a lot of guy's would have just finished College at his age, where he finished up a fine stint in AA.

jojo
02-06-2007, 07:31 PM
What's great is that a lot of guy's would have just finished College at his age, where he finished up a fine stint in AA.

But so too have a lot of other guys that would also have just finished college if they hadn't just finished their stints in AA....and they have much more upside.... Bazardo's skill set is no longer unique given the loss of velocity (funny thing that testing business)...he's destined for the bullpen at best....

This isn't the move that's going to define Bavasi....its a minor blip.... Bazardo is no longer a very interesting arm....definitely he is no longer a true prospect.... in fact, since you have to add waiver pickups to your 40-man for a year, its not the no-brainer that people will grab him up that some might think.... I wouldn't be surprised if Bazardo goes unclaimed.

Scrap Irony
02-07-2007, 01:21 AM
It shouldn't matter, as the Rays need arms like his (post surgery) in the pen. He'll be a Ray, IMO, and their team will be the better for it. League average reliever for peanuts.

Krivsky could do worse. (And has.)

redsmetz
02-07-2007, 07:08 PM
Detroit picked him up today per mlb.com


Acquired RHP Yorman Bazardo from the Seattle Mariners in exchange for OF Jeff Frazier

Eric_Davis
02-08-2007, 12:23 AM
Detroit picked him up today per mlb.com
So, Detroit, who's staff is three times better than ours, thinks he was good enough to trade for him.

Reminds me of all the many times when teams,...well, that are better than ours, pick up players that end up doing well, while we do nothing (Doug Davis a few years ago, as an example).

For whatever reason, I guess he didn't fit in here.

M2
02-08-2007, 12:58 AM
Trading Neagle netted us (eventually) Arroyo.

Getting out from most of Casey's contract was a great move, only getting Williams was the bad part. But we made out much better than the Pirates did on that one.

Trading Neagle only got the Reds Arroyo six years later because Drew Henson was a twit. Hardly the residue of design on that one. JimBo traded away a plus starting pitcher for a boatload of nothing.

Getting out from under Sean Casey's contract didn't do a damn thing for the Reds and Dave Williams actively hurt the team for the short time he was in town. Sure looked like Sean Casey was a good guy to have on hand for some money games last season. Think a team that went to the end of the season with some playoff hopes alive could have used a guy like that instead of a guy who wound up getting released?

Talent, makes the baseball world go 'round. The Reds continually find themselves short of it and yet people continue to try to put a smiley face on the something-for-nothing deals which have routinely bled the Reds of talent.

redsmetz
02-08-2007, 02:41 AM
So, Detroit, who's staff is three times better than ours, thinks he was good enough to trade for him.

Reminds me of all the many times when teams,...well, that are better than ours, pick up players that end up doing well, while we do nothing (Doug Davis a few years ago, as an example).

For whatever reason, I guess he didn't fit in here.

Either that or they didn't want who we were offering or the M's wanted more than we wanted to give.

jojo
02-08-2007, 07:16 AM
So, Detroit, who's staff is three times better than ours, thinks he was good enough to trade for him.

Reminds me of all the many times when teams,...well, that are better than ours, pick up players that end up doing well, while we do nothing (Doug Davis a few years ago, as an example).

For whatever reason, I guess he didn't fit in here.


It's because he's nothing special.


Basically, the Tigers just jettisoned a "bullpen guy" that may develop into something useful someday but who was out of options and essentailly refilled that irrelevent role with the same guy who has options.

In that algebra, the name isn’t nearly as important as the ability to function as a lottery ticket…

Bazardo might as well of been named Tralfaz Zanzabar…. he's not going to amount to much. If this is affecting your opinion of Krivsky, it shouldn't be. It's not even much more than minor housekeeping for the Tigers and Ms.

M2
02-08-2007, 11:38 AM
It's because he's nothing special.


Basically, the Tigers just jettisoned a "bullpen guy" that may develop into something useful someday but who was out of options and essentailly refilled that irrelevent role with the same guy who has options.

In that algebra, the name isn’t nearly as important as the ability to function as a lottery ticket…

Bazardo might as well of been named Tralfaz Zanzabar…. he's not going to amount to much. If this is affecting your opinion of Krivsky, it shouldn't be. It's not even much more than minor housekeeping for the Tigers and Ms.

I don't know if Bazardo's ever going to amount to anything, but the Tigers know what they're about on the pitching side. They like and collect kids who can throw gas. Obviously not every single one works out, but I wish the Reds had that kind of direction. Collecting hard thrower has, historically, paid dividends for the Reds bullpen. We'll see if Bazardo can reclaim some velocity this season. He's young and he's been overpromoted and misused, so my guess is he can.

jojo
02-08-2007, 11:53 AM
He's young and he's been overpromoted and misused, so my guess is he can.

I understand the young part but I don't understand the overpromoted and misused part.

redsmetz
02-08-2007, 11:57 AM
Bazardo might as well of been named Tralfaz Zanzabar…. he's not going to amount to much. If this is affecting your opinion of Krivsky, it shouldn't be. It's not even much more than minor housekeeping for the Tigers and Ms.

Tralfaz Zanzabar? I've got his card!

http://www.attheplate.com/wcbl/images/Links/links_hod.jpg

M2
02-08-2007, 12:55 PM
I understand the young part but I don't understand the overpromoted and misused part.

He's never been allowed to let his stuff catch up to his level of competition. IIRC, he hadn't pitched a whole lot when he was young and his main selling point was that he's projectable. The Marlins gave him a cup of coffee when he was 21. He's never really been able to translate velocity into strikeouts and constantly facing older, more experienced hitters surely hasn't done him any favors on that front. The original book on him might be right. He might be a projectable arm with a sweet heater, but it might take him another two to three years when he's 24 or 25 to put it all together. No one's ever tried patience with this kid.

He also seemingly has no feel for benders. He scrapped his curveball and his slider is nothing to write home about. What he has is a fastball that he can dial up to the high 90s and a changeup. Sounds like a reliever to me. Bet he sounds like a reliever to the Tigers too. My guess is they'll get him working out of the pen and see if his velocity returns. I wish the Reds would try something like that.