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View Full Version : Harang signs 4 yr deal



ed the red
02-06-2007, 12:24 PM
Don't know details, just came on ESPN. also on team web site

Always Red
02-06-2007, 12:25 PM
That's the best news of the entire offseason!

Red Leader
02-06-2007, 12:26 PM
Nice. The dollar amounts don't really worry me as I don't think there is any way the Reds overpayed for him. I'm guessing it'll be around $32M, though

jesusfan
02-06-2007, 12:26 PM
Heck yea! Harang, Arroyo, Bailey for years to come!!! A very solid 1-2-3!

ed the red
02-06-2007, 12:26 PM
terms not disclosed but the Reds also have a club option for 2011

jesusfan
02-06-2007, 12:28 PM
the club option for 2011 will put Harang right at 33 years old and we have him during his prime locked up....

Krusty
02-06-2007, 12:30 PM
Where are the Krivsky bashers for the Reds wasting their money locking a player to a longterm deal?

flyer85
02-06-2007, 12:32 PM
Where are the Krivsky bashers for the Reds wasting their money locking a player to a longterm deal?maybe it's because he isn't old and doesn't suck.

Redlegs23
02-06-2007, 12:32 PM
Wow. Big sigh of relief from me. Great news and great work Krivsky!

big boy
02-06-2007, 12:34 PM
Nice. The dollar amounts don't really worry me as I don't think there is any way the Reds overpayed for him. I'm guessing it'll be around $32M, though

He should get more than that based on other deals in the past couple months.

cincy09
02-06-2007, 12:35 PM
Best news that could have been received........

What a great day to be a Redleg!!!!!!!!

cincy09
02-06-2007, 12:37 PM
From reds.com :


CINCINNATI -- The Cincinnati Reds and RHP Aaron Harang have avoided arbitration by agreeing to terms on a 4-year contract through the 2010 season with a club option for 2011. Financial terms of the contract were not disclosed.
Harang, 28, in 2006 put together one of the best seasons of any pitcher in baseball. The Reds' Opening Day starter led the National League in strikeouts (216) and complete games (6), tied for the NL lead in starts (35) and victories (16) and ranked among the leaders in innings pitched (234.1, 3rd), ERA (3.76, 11th), shutouts (2, T3rd), ERA on the road (2.98, 3rd), fewest walks per 9ip (2.2, 9th) and strikeouts per 9ip (8.3, 6th).

Since he was acquired from the Athletics at the 2003 trading deadline, Harang is the club's leader in most statistical pitching categories, including starts (104), victories (41), innings pitched (653.0) and strikeouts (530). He has made 80 consecutive starts without walking more than 3 batters, the third-longest streak in baseball among active pitchers

thatcoolguy_22
02-06-2007, 12:37 PM
maybe it's because he isn't old and doesn't suck.

they'll be here soon enough...


I was just reading the very interesting debate on EG and his minor league contract when I click back and BAM!!! 4 year deal!!!!


PERFECT!!!!!!! as long as he didn't sign him to a 50$+ deal we should be fine

edabbs44
02-06-2007, 12:37 PM
Where are the Krivsky bashers for the Reds wasting their money locking a player to a longterm deal?

Not sure what you are reaching for here...

RANDY IN INDY
02-06-2007, 12:38 PM
Good news. Hope he stays healthy.

curedsfan
02-06-2007, 12:39 PM
Terms of the deal -

UPDATE: The deal, including the fifth-year buyout, is worth $36.5 million, which when Gil Meche is getting five years for $55 million is a bargain. The press conference will be live on WLW and Reds.com

thatcoolguy_22
02-06-2007, 12:41 PM
Terms of the deal -

UPDATE: The deal, including the fifth-year buyout, is worth $36.5 million, which when Gil Meche is getting five years for $55 million is a bargain. The press conference will be live on WLW and Reds.com

if this is true, this could possibly be one of the best signings in MLB this offseason IMO. for an average, with the 5th year, at 7mil a season...wow!


well done WK

Slyder
02-06-2007, 12:44 PM
Glad to see Harang getting paid but keeping it within reason. He easily would have been the 2nd most sought after pitcher on free agency and figuring we are getting him for only $7+ mil is great!!!

Best move of the offseason. Now time to work over Bronson and see if we can't convince him he's happiest here.

cincy09
02-06-2007, 12:44 PM
The money part sounds almost too good to be true

Ibleedblue
02-06-2007, 12:45 PM
Wow, 4 years(5 if we want) for 36.5? That is an AMAZING deal. Great job by Krivsky! Bailey/Harang/Arroyo could end up being one of the best top 3 in the NL in a year or so!

flyer85
02-06-2007, 12:46 PM
Terms of the deal -

UPDATE: The deal, including the fifth-year buyout, is worth $36.5 million, which when Gil Meche is getting five years for $55 million is a bargain. The press conference will be live on WLW and Reds.comThe difference in price is buying 2 years arbitration and 2 of free agency.

Red Leader
02-06-2007, 12:47 PM
Wow, 4 years(5 if we want) for 36.5? That is an AMAZING deal.

Kind of.

That $36.5M gets us 4 years of Harang and the buyout of his 5th year, meaning he would be a free agent after the 4th year. I don't think they've released the dollar amount for how much it would cost us to pick up that 5th year option and keep him that 5th year.

Still, a great deal, IMO.

SeeinRed
02-06-2007, 12:47 PM
I like it. I like it a lot. I think this is a good sign that Cincy is becoming a team that players want to play for. I remember when Harang first came here and all you ever heard was that he was a California boy, and thats where I thought he would end up sooner rather than later given the struggles of the team and the small ball park. Maybe this is a sign that players like what is going on... Or maybe I'm just too optomistic, but I can think of at least one other good player with a back story similar to Harang's. I'll give you a hint, he's a pitcher, and he loves Boston...

As far as Krivsky goes, I think he has made a lot of smart, small market baseball moves while he has been GM. (Excluding the Infamous trade) (Now curling up in a ball while waiting for stones to fly)

flyer85
02-06-2007, 12:47 PM
Good news. Hope he stays healthy.that is true of every LT contract you sign. 4 years is reasonable given his age and low effort delivery.

M2
02-06-2007, 12:48 PM
That's the best news of the entire offseason!

Agreed.

Roy Tucker
02-06-2007, 12:52 PM
Yay Reds. Huzzah WK.

All is not lost.

PTI (pti)
02-06-2007, 12:52 PM
This would have been a good signing even BEFORE the offseason (over)spending extravaganza started. Great work by Krivsky.

George Anderson
02-06-2007, 12:53 PM
I like it. I like it a lot. I think this is a good sign that Cincy is becoming a team that players want to play for. I remember when Harang first came here and all you ever heard was that he was a California boy, and thats where I thought he would end up sooner rather than later given the struggles of the team and the small ball park. Maybe this is a sign that players like what is going on... Or maybe I'm just too optomistic, but I can think of at least one other good player with a back story similar to Harang's. I'll give you a hint, he's a pitcher, and he loves Boston...

As far as Krivsky goes, I think he has made a lot of smart, small market baseball moves while he has been GM. (Excluding the Infamous trade) (Now curling up in a ball while waiting for stones to fly)

Had Kearns and Lopez stayed we would have ended up forking out big bucks in arbitration which we can now look as money spent instead on keeping Harang. Personally I would rather have Harang locked up for four years than losing him and instead have Kearns and Lopez in the lineup.

Johnny Footstool
02-06-2007, 12:59 PM
Where are the Krivsky bashers for the Reds wasting their money locking a player to a longterm deal?

You incorrectly assume that we "Krivsky bashers" are just knee-jerk reactionaries who start spewing hate before we actually analyze the transactions. Wrong, wrong.

This is a great move. I'm glad they got it done.

gonelong
02-06-2007, 01:01 PM
I'm all the way on board with this move. Nice work by the Reds to sign this guy to a reasonable contract in both years and dollars and have it be during his prime. Harang strikes me as a guy that will have as good as chance as anyone to pitch a signficant number of games well over the next 4 seasons.

I'm trying to remember the last time the Reds made a move of this quality and I'm coming up blank.

GL

CRedsLarkin11
02-06-2007, 01:01 PM
Great job Wayne. Everyone knew the Reds needed to lock him up or he would be gone come free agency. Hopefully this a step in the right direction, making Cincinnati a place where good players want to play, not where they want to get out of.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
02-06-2007, 01:01 PM
Had Kearns and Lopez stayed we would have ended up forking out big bucks in arbitration which we can now look as money spent instead on keeping Harang. Personally I would rather have Harang locked up for four years than losing him and instead have Kearns and Lopez in the lineup.
I couldn't agree more. For all we know that was the whole reason for the move to begin with, and along the way we picked up some relievers for our trouble. When we complain about the trade we need to take in account that maybe Wayne had no interest in resigning Kearns and Lopez after the season was over.

Superdude
02-06-2007, 01:02 PM
Do players get more money if they sign a contract during free agency? That contract doesn't even make sense when looked at compared to others this offseason.

Shaggy Sanchez
02-06-2007, 01:04 PM
Had Kearns and Lopez stayed we would have ended up forking out big bucks in arbitration which we can now look as money spent instead on keeping Harang. Personally I would rather have Harang locked up for four years than losing him and instead have Kearns and Lopez in the lineup.

Actually if Kearns and Lopez would have stayed we wouldn't have spent money on Gonzalez. There was enough money to sign Harang long term and keep both Lopez and Kearns especially with the money coming in from the new TV deal. I personally would rather have Harang locked up and have guys like Lopez and Kearns in the lineup so that he isn't forced to pitch a perfect game everytime out.

flyer85
02-06-2007, 01:05 PM
Do players get more money if they sign a contract during free agency? The answer is a big "YES". This is not a free market where teams bid without constraint, this is simply two parties coming to agreement and one party(Harang) giving up some money for some security.

flyer85
02-06-2007, 01:08 PM
Actually if Kearns and Lopez would have stayed we wouldn't have spent money on Gonzalez. There was enough money to sign Harang long term and keep both Lopez and Kearns especially with the money coming in from the new TV deal. and at least flipped Phillips and Lopez before trying something else. There is a reason Gonzo has been cut loose each of the last two years for nothing in return. He just isn't very good or valuable and giving him 3 years was too much. Just an example of what can happen when you do things in a panic.

remdog
02-06-2007, 01:08 PM
Had Kearns and Lopez stayed we would have ended up forking out big bucks in arbitration which we can now look as money spent instead on keeping Harang. Personally I would rather have Harang locked up for four years than losing him and instead have Kearns and Lopez in the lineup.

Sorry George but we could have had all three for the price of a Conine, Gono, a Cormier or Stanton here or there....You get the picture---the money is/was there, it's all about how you spend it.

Rem

justincredible
02-06-2007, 01:12 PM
This is the best news I have heard in a long time. I couldn't really believe how cheap we were able to sign him for compared to what the pitching market has been bringing this offseason. Looks like I will be ordering my #39 jersey here in the next few weeks!:harang:

flyer85
02-06-2007, 01:13 PM
Sorry George but we could have had all three for the price of a Conine, Gono, a Cormier or Stanton here or there....You get the picture---the money is/was there, it's all about how you spend it.

RemThe Reds have ~12M tied up in those bums in 2007

M2
02-06-2007, 01:13 PM
Actually if Kearns and Lopez would have stayed we wouldn't have spent money on Gonzalez. There was enough money to sign Harang long term and keep both Lopez and Kearns especially with the money coming in from the new TV deal. I personally would rather have Harang locked up and have guys like Lopez and Kearns in the lineup so that he isn't forced to pitch a perfect game everytime out.

Great post and nice job undoing the desperate rationalization that one led to the other.

remdog
02-06-2007, 01:14 PM
Where are the Krivsky bashers for the Reds wasting their money locking a player to a longterm deal?

Most of the 'Krivsky bashers' are thrilled at the deal and our only question is: 'What took ya' so long?'

There. Happy with that Krusty? Sorry to ask for something more than the mediocrity that you find acceptable.

Rem

UK Reds Fan
02-06-2007, 01:16 PM
All in all..the offseason for the Reds has been solid.

1. Harang here for 4 to 5 years to come
2. Gonzo at SS for 5 Mil a year
3. Sarloos for 1.5M a year (only losing AAA BP guy)
4. Re-upping Weathers
5. Replacing Aurillia with Conine (blech)
6. Dumping LaRue
7. Crosby off the bench

I realize we have more work to do with the starting pitching. But outside of not re-upping Aurillia or Craig Wilson instead of Conine and I'd wish we'd have shelled out the low $$$ that Ohka ended up getting.

Outside of that, what player would the Reds have gotten at the $$$ that would be significantly better than what we did? Most other signings were for players we weren't going to pay for or were not worth the $$$$ that player ended up getting in the end.

AdamDunn
02-06-2007, 01:18 PM
HALLELUJAH... HALLELUJAH

UK Reds Fan... I disagree with your assessment... our offense was bad, but it got worse when we gave five mill for Gonza to play SS.

But Goodness Gracious, I'm happy about Harang

Tom Servo
02-06-2007, 01:20 PM
Great news! :beerme:

Red Leader
02-06-2007, 01:21 PM
You incorrectly assume that we "Krivsky bashers" are just knee-jerk reactionaries who start spewing hate before we actually analyze the transactions. Wrong, wrong.

This is a great move. I'm glad they got it done.

Good post, Johnny.

Krusty, if you want to label people "Krivsky bashers" that's your prerogative, but I would say that a lot of the signings and trades that started with the Kearns / Lopez deal were legitimately bad deals. A lot of people spent a lot of time analyzing those moves and whether they were good or bad moves. It just happened that there were several consecutive bad moves. This is not a bad move, therefore a lot of people like this signing.

As an aside, it really bothers me when you type in a blanket statement like "Where are the Krivsky bashers for the Reds wasting their money locking a player to a longterm deal?" in a thread like this in both the ORG and RL forums without adding any other commentary, opinion, or analysis. Are you honestly trying to start a fight? Is that what you come to this board for these days? That's what it seems like to me....

Krusty
02-06-2007, 01:23 PM
The Reds have ~12M tied up in those bums in 2007

Yeah, those bums like Cormier and Weathers who put up decent numbers last year. Maybe you prefer Estaban Yan or Chris Hammond who was signed by O'Brien?

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=cin

Or Stanton who has pitched well in the National League the past two seasons.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/stats/player_locator_results.jsp?c_id=cin&playerLocator=stanton

Frankly I don't give a damn how old these guys are as long as they can get hitters out.

flyer85
02-06-2007, 01:23 PM
All in all..the offseason for the Reds has been solid.

1. Harang here for 4 to 5 years to come
2. Gonzo at SS for 5 Mil a year
3. Sarloos for 1.5M a year (only losing AAA BP guy)
4. Re-upping Weathers
5. Replacing Aurillia with Conine (blech)
6. Dumping LaRue
7. Crosby off the bench
1) very good
2) bad - his supposed "superior defense" just doesn't show up in any of the metrics, as opposed to a guy like Everett. and his offense is just plain bad. 3 years is way too long.
3) marginal - Reds had potential 5th starters in Belisle and Ramirez that as likely to pitch as well or better. Expensive insurance for not much potential performance.
4) Good - PECOTA likes him a lot better than Stanton and Cormier. Of course the fact that he may be the closer is not good.
5) bad
6) marginal - paid to much to get KC to take him for nothing in return
7) very bad if he is actually on the team. Crosby is the definition of "below replacement level"
8) signing Stanton - bad, PECOTA see him as a wonderful anchor(not in a good sense).

Krusty
02-06-2007, 01:26 PM
Good post, Johnny.

Krusty, if you want to label people "Krivsky bashers" that's your prerogative, but I would say that a lot of the signings and trades that started with the Kearns / Lopez deal were legitimately bad deals. A lot of people spent a lot of time analyzing those moves and whether they were good or bad moves. It just happened that there were several consecutive bad moves. This is not a bad move, therefore a lot of people like this signing.

As an aside, it really bothers me when you type in a blanket statement like "Where are the Krivsky bashers for the Reds wasting their money locking a player to a longterm deal?" in a thread like this in both the ORG and RL forums without adding any other commentary, opinion, or analysis. Are you honestly trying to start a fight? Is that what you come to this board for these days? That's what it seems like to me....


You're going to judge the Washington trade based on a half of season? Why not wait till the end of this season before making that assessment. What if Kearns and Lopez don't put up the numbers in that big ballpark at RFK Stadium? What if Majewski shows he is healthy and pitches like he did in 2005? What if Bray improves after getting his rookie season under his belt?

To blast Krivsky for the trade based on a half year assessment is premature.

Danny Serafini
02-06-2007, 01:27 PM
Yeah, those bums like Cormier and Weathers who put up decent numbers last year. Maybe you prefer Estaban Yan or Chris Hammond who was signed by O'Brien?

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=cin

Or Stanton who has pitched well in the National League the past two seasons.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/stats/player_locator_results.jsp?c_id=cin&playerLocator=stanton

Frankly I don't give a damn how old these guys are as long as they can get hitters out.

Excellent point. It's easy to say old=suck, but the numbers haven't worked out that way.

edabbs44
02-06-2007, 01:31 PM
To blast Krivsky for the trade based on a half year assessment is premature.
Then to praise Krivsky for resigning Harang to a 4 year deal is premature also. What if he crashes down to Earth this year? What if he gets hurt? What if he develops a drug problem now that he's rich?

The greatest thing about this board is to be able to discuss your opinions as things happen. Not waiting 6 months or 60 months or however long you want to wait. Then we'd be discussing facts.

Maybe you should write in to all the baseball preview magazines to say that they should save their previews until after the season is over.

Red Leader
02-06-2007, 01:31 PM
You're going to judge the Washington trade based on a half of season? Why not wait till the end of this season before making that assessment. What if Kearns and Lopez don't put up the numbers in that big ballpark at RFK Stadium? What if Majewski shows he is healthy and pitches like he did in 2005? What if Bray improves after getting his rookie season under his belt?

To blast Krivsky for the trade based on a half year assessment is premature.

We've already discussed this. I happen to think you can look at it two different ways. You can look at it in the short term: win the division in 2006, or you can look at it as a long term thing, payflex, etc.

I believe that trade was made to win the division in 2006. The Reds needed bullpen help, they knew it, Krivsky said as much. They traded Kearns and Lopez to get it. It turned out to be a very bad move as neither of those players performed up to Krivsky's expectations. We could have gotten more for those two players this offseason, most likely. Sure Bray and Majewski could become good players in the future and that will even it out more in the long term, but I'll go to my grave thinking that Krivsky made that deal for the short term and it was one big Brainy Smurf blown up present for him.

flyer85
02-06-2007, 01:32 PM
Yeah, those bums like Cormier and Weathers who put up decent numbers last year. Cormier was nothing but a fluke and I said so at the time of the trade and predicted his failure as a Red. How did I know that? He was a complete non bat-misser entirely dependent on good luck(in terms of both BABIP and FB/HR ratio). It was easy to see that his good performance in Philly was nothing but a fluke converging with luck and optimal/infrequent usage by Manuel.

BTW, PECOTA predicts over 5 ERA for both Cormier and Stanton. Relief performance is always volatile from year to year for those that don't consistently miss bats. Cormier and Stanton were both a tale of two seasons. Cormier had success in Philly and sucked with the Reds, Stanton sucked in Washington and had success in SF. The fact that they now pitch in hitters park backed up by a porous defense does not portend success in 2007.

edabbs44
02-06-2007, 01:32 PM
Excellent point. It's easy to say old=suck, but the numbers haven't worked out that way.

The problem is the 2 year deals that Stanton and Weathers got. If these guys look old this year, then 2008 should be a lot of fun in the bleachers.

dsmith421
02-06-2007, 01:32 PM
Excellent point. It's easy to say old=suck, but the numbers haven't worked out that way.

I have a philosophical problem with a non-contending team devoting a large percentage of payroll and playing time to players on the downside of their careers.

I'd rather see the Reds devote the scarce resources of salary and (more importantly) playing time to players who could form part of our next contending team.

remdog
02-06-2007, 01:36 PM
.....what player would the Reds have gotten at the $$$ that would be significantly better than what we did?

Here's an easy one: the Phillies signed 27 y.o. Jayson Werth to an $850,000 contract and got a right-handed power bat with the speed and defensive abilities to play all three OF positions. They promptly jetisoned Jeff Conine whom the Reds, just as promtly, showered with $2M. The Reds could have just as easily had a younger, probably better player that filled more needs for them and saved $1.150M. That's usually referred to as a 'no-brainer'. (shrug)

Rem

dsmith421
02-06-2007, 01:40 PM
Outside of that, what player would the Reds have gotten at the $$$ that would be significantly better than what we did? Most other signings were for players we weren't going to pay for or were not worth the $$$$ that player ended up getting in the end.

Frankly, it's utterly pointless to make such lists because those who defend every Krivsky move will come right back with "how do you know they would sign in Cincinnati?"

Slyder
02-06-2007, 01:41 PM
All in all..the offseason for the Reds has been solid.

1. Harang here for 4 to 5 years to come
2. Gonzo at SS for 5 Mil a year
3. Sarloos for 1.5M a year (only losing AAA BP guy)
4. Re-upping Weathers
5. Replacing Aurillia with Conine (blech)
6. Dumping LaRue
7. Crosby off the bench

I realize we have more work to do with the starting pitching. But outside of not re-upping Aurillia or Craig Wilson instead of Conine and I'd wish we'd have shelled out the low $$$ that Ohka ended up getting.

Outside of that, what player would the Reds have gotten at the $$$ that would be significantly better than what we did? Most other signings were for players we weren't going to pay for or were not worth the $$$$ that player ended up getting in the end.

1. A++++++ I cannot believe, show my joy that we got Harang signed for for 4 years.
2. C-. Overpay? Yes but he's shown some pop in the past, maybe get a bump in his offense like Rich got from GAB?
3. B. I really really like this move, may seem to be a lateral move but if he gets the same amt of GBs he should be good for us.
4. B. Old or not he's been effective. IF you want to argue how good of a closer he is, thats a different story.
5. Push. Aurilia wasnt going to stay unless we forked big $$$ and guarenteed him a starting position which we couldnt.
6. A. Any news what we got in return?
7. Not going to grade. Because chances are Crosby wont break camp and come north. Sanchez>Crosby and we've seen how much time Sanchez has with Cincy.

Jim
02-06-2007, 01:41 PM
The Harang signing was, by far, the best move this off-season! I'm glad to have him around for the next few years!

remdog
02-06-2007, 01:43 PM
You're going to judge the Washington trade based on a half of season? Why not wait till the end of this season before making that assessment.

Because Krivsky made the trade to win in '06. He set the criteria that the trade was based upon therefore he gets judged upon it. Don't point the finger at others for something that Krivsky set up.

Rem

UK Reds Fan
02-06-2007, 01:46 PM
1. If you don't sign Gonzo, which I wasn't crazy about...who is your starting SS for the Reds in 2007? Olmedo, Clayton..I don't think the Phillips to SS and Aurillia/Freel at 2B is bad idea, but the brass isn't sold on that.

2. Belisle as a starter has been there and done that. They guy isn't healthy nor has shown anything as a starter. Save a better fastball, what is the fascination with Belisle? Ramirez if healthy is a valid argument..but we don't know for sure. In the end, is it a terrible idea to have Rameriz/Belisle as 6th starters down the road if Milton, which is likely, to need 15 day dls, etc..Sarloos at 5 is fine for me.

I'll concede Conine. I think there were tons of better options for cheap. Crosby is another one that is hard call. But we didn't pay hardly any money for him did we?

flyer85
02-06-2007, 01:48 PM
So what was the difference between the Cormier 5.89(2005) and the 2.44(2006)? Did he suddenly get better at age 39? Is the success likely to continue?

BP has a PERA(projected based on peripheral stats after the season) for Cormier of 5.27 in 2005 and 4.8 in 2006.

The numbers suggest the 2006 was actually worse(K rate dropped by 50&#37;). The only plus was and extremely fortunate BABIP(<25) in 2006. If you want to gamble on that continuing then go for it.

What is his likely level in 2007? PECOTA's weighted mean pegs him for a 5.07ERA and a .298 BABIP and a K/9 of 4.2. Certainly sound reasonable to me.

BTW, PECOTA likes Stanton(5.11 ERA) less than even Cormier. it predicts an OK season for Weathers(4.47)

Krusty
02-06-2007, 01:49 PM
Because Krivsky made the trade to win in '06. He set the criteria that the trade was based upon therefore he gets judged upon it. Don't point the finger at others for something that Krivsky set up.

Rem

He made the trade also to win this season along with trying to win in 06.

At least he tried. It is better than standing pat compared to O'Brien.

And while I'm at it, I don't remember all the criticism to all of Bowden's moves.

Red Leader
02-06-2007, 01:53 PM
And while I'm at it, I don't remember all the criticism to all of Bowden's moves.

Every GM makes bad deals at some point and they should be criticized for them. If everyone agreed with them, that'd be pretty stupid.

I remember an uproar the day the news of the Elmer Dessens for Felipe Lopez trade went down. I also remember everyone getting all worked up about JimBo trading Rob Bell for a 5 tool OF named Ruben Mateo with no mention or knowledge of EE.

dougdirt
02-06-2007, 01:54 PM
yes

http://www.wintersown.org/wseo1/Dual_Purposes/IMAG000.JPG

red-in-la
02-06-2007, 01:55 PM
He made the trade also to win this season along with trying to win in 06.

At least he tried. It is better than standing pat compared to O'Brien.

And while I'm at it, I don't remember all the criticism to all of Bowden's moves.

Just the pants.:eek:

Northern Dancer
02-06-2007, 01:59 PM
This is indeed a Red letter day!

M2
02-06-2007, 01:59 PM
You're going to judge the Washington trade based on a half of season? Why not wait till the end of this season before making that assessment. What if Kearns and Lopez don't put up the numbers in that big ballpark at RFK Stadium? What if Majewski shows he is healthy and pitches like he did in 2005? What if Bray improves after getting his rookie season under his belt?

To blast Krivsky for the trade based on a half year assessment is premature.

Not this garbage again?

Wayne Krivsky told the entire world that he made the trade to fix his bullpen in 2006. It didn't work and the team's offense went into a powerslide during the second half of the season too.

Bray and Majewski currently have the market value of baloney-flavored chewing gum and the Reds keep turning over stones looking for relievers because the franchise apparently has no faith in those two to be impact arms. Meanwhile Kearns and Lopez are absolute steals at their current prices (and Kearns is now locked up for the next three years) and they'd without doubt fetch better than Bray or Majewski if Washington wanted to deal them (which it doesn't).

Bray and Majewski (whose value will always be bounded by his inability to make hitters swing and miss) need to pitch well just to salvage something from the deal. It's all about degrees of loss at this point. Wily Mo Pena got the team Arroyo. Kearns and Lopez, each of whom was better than Wily Mo, fetched two iffy middle relievers.

By Krivsky's own statements about what the deal was designed to do and by the standards he set with his first trade, the deal has been a miserable failure.

I've got no problem lauding Krivsky when he does something right (for instance, locking up Aaron Harang) and his accomplishments shouldn't have to be used as bogus excuses for his mistakes.

Danny Serafini
02-06-2007, 02:00 PM
The problem is the 2 year deals that Stanton and Weathers got. If these guys look old this year, then 2008 should be a lot of fun in the bleachers.

Giving them a second year is a concern, that part I didn't really get. I just think that, for 2007, there's enough left in each for them to contribute. I'm not going to write them off simply because of their age, which there seems to be a tendency to do.

remdog
02-06-2007, 02:02 PM
He made the trade also to win this season along with trying to win in 06.

At least he tried. It is better than standing pat compared to O'Brien.

On the first point, you're being rivisionist there.

On the second point, any of us that lived through the F. Robby trade (and I think that would include you) know the famous axiom: Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make. ;)

Rem

M2
02-06-2007, 02:04 PM
And while I'm at it, I don't remember all the criticism to all of Bowden's moves.

Then your memory has gotten convenient. Starting with the Denny Neagle trade and continuing pretty much straight to his firing, plenty of folks around here maintained JimBo was dismantling the franchise one move at a time. There was a camp of folks who put off judging his moves in total until 2003, but when that fell apart I don't remember anyone having particularly good to say about JimBo other than they hoped he wouldn't let the door hit him on the back on his way way out.

Danny Serafini
02-06-2007, 02:06 PM
I have a philosophical problem with a non-contending team devoting a large percentage of payroll and playing time to players on the downside of their careers.

I'd rather see the Reds devote the scarce resources of salary and (more importantly) playing time to players who could form part of our next contending team.

The flip side of that though is giving a batch of players the Brian Reith treatment. Most of the organization's young relievers haven't pitched above AA. A bullpen of Salmon, Medlock and Coutlangus might be pretty decent someday, but right now it would just be throwing them to the wolves. I'd rather let them develop at their natural rate than call them up when they're not ready, it does no good to have them get torched. Even if the veterans stink it up, it frees up the young guys to develop in AAA and eventually become useful, instead of blowing them up and having nothing to replace them with.

RedsNeck
02-06-2007, 02:06 PM
The best thing about the Harang signing is that the Reds have a legit go to guy for the next 4-5 years at the top of rotation and not the endless line of 1-2 year semi-wonder retreads they've paid like top shelf guys in the past...see Wilson, Paul...Haynes, Jimmah...Schourek, Pete. Harang is a rare commodity for the Reds. A healthy pitcher with plus stuff coming into his prime and on board for the long haul. I think it's what DanO was reaching for with the Milton deal but Eric just didn't fit the bill. Harang has the most upside of any pitcher the Reds have had since a young Jose Rijo.

dsmith421
02-06-2007, 02:13 PM
The flip side of that though is giving a batch of players the Brian Reith treatment.

Sure, and that's an indictment of the general organizational rot that set in the past five or six years. I still don't think it's any excuse to throw money and multi-year contracts at guys like Stanton and Cormier.

M2
02-06-2007, 02:16 PM
The best thing about the Harang signing is that the Reds have a legit go to guy for the next 4-5 years at the top of rotation and not the endless line of 1-2 year semi-wonder retreads they've paid like top shelf guys in the past...see Wilson, Paul...Haynes, Jimmah...Schourek, Pete. Harang is a rare commodity for the Reds. A healthy pitcher with plus stuff coming into his prime and on board for the long haul. I think it's what DanO was reaching for with the Milton deal but Eric just didn't fit the bill. Harang has the most upside of any pitcher the Reds have had since a young Jose Rijo.

Harang's certainly a big boy with an uncomplicated delivery. That's the sort of guy who can gobble up innings for the better part of the decade and, more than an ace, that's the kind of pitcher the Reds need. A team needs to pitch roughly 1,450 innings a year and having someone (hopefully) reliable like Harang to eat up 220 or so of them is a big plus.

Jpup
02-06-2007, 02:17 PM
congrats to Aaron and I'll give props to Wayne for signing him. I was very nervous that this wasn't going to get done.

Time to make some trades now.

FutureRedsGM
02-06-2007, 02:37 PM
congrats to Aaron and I'll give props to Wayne for signing him. I was very nervous that this wasn't going to get done.

Time to make some trades now.

I agree 100%. The bullpen overfloweth. Find a trading partner that will allow you to package Cormier, Freel / Deno, and Castro for a decent bat in RF / CF (depending on Griff's position). That not only helps the offense, but clears up the congestion in the bullpen and on the 25 man (Coco Crisp comes to mind).

redsmetz
02-06-2007, 02:38 PM
I think I'll sidestep the quarreling today and just bask in the sheer joy of knowing we've got our one two starters locked up for at least two years (with Arroyo's contract). Lets hope we can convince Bronson to love us more and do a LTC.

I hope Aaron's packing his bags for arriving in Sarasota!!!

http://www.newspagedesigner.com/users/5068/thumb_welcometo.jpg

Slyder
02-06-2007, 02:41 PM
Paul O'Neill for Roberto who?? > The trade in biggest screw ups over the past 20 yrs.

remdog
02-06-2007, 02:42 PM
I think I'll sidestep the quarreling today....

Party pooper! :p:

Rem

Jaycint
02-06-2007, 02:52 PM
When we complain about the trade we need to take in account that maybe Wayne had no interest in resigning Kearns and Lopez after the season was over.

That point is irrelevant in regards to what he got in return. No matter whether he was planning on getting rid of them in July or December he needed to milk out more value than what he got...

Back on topic: Awesome deal. A quality move by WK.

Degenerate39
02-06-2007, 02:59 PM
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Best thing they've done all offseason

Johnny Footstool
02-06-2007, 03:01 PM
Harang's certainly a big boy with an uncomplicated delivery. That's the sort of guy who can gobble up innings for the better part of the decade and, more than an ace, that's the kind of pitcher the Reds need. A team needs to pitch roughly 1,450 innings a year and having someone (hopefully) reliable like Harang to eat up 220 or so of them is a big plus.

Add to that the fact that Harang has constantly worked his Clydesdale-like hindquarters off to make himself a better pitcher. I guy with a work ethic like his has a good chance to endure the rigors of 220 IP per year.

MississippiRed
02-06-2007, 03:15 PM
Great news! Harang is absolutely the kind of pitcher you risk giving a long-term contract. Not only does he eat up innings, he does so with quality pitching. I haven't decided if I think Krivsky is the right man for the job yet, but this is a mark in his "good moves" column for sure.

A trade for a RH hitter (1B or outfield) and a closer would also be "good moves."

Matt700wlw
02-06-2007, 03:27 PM
More numbers (Lance's blog - MLB source)

4 years, 36.119 million dollars
2007 4.25 mill
2008 6.75 mill
2009 11.0 mill
2010 12.5 mill
2011 12.75 mill (club option). 13-mill if he throws 210+ innings in 2010. 2 mill buyout.
If traded...option becomes mutual and becomes 14-mill with a 2.5 mill buyout

Bonuses
All Star game $25,000
Cy Young $100,000
2nd place Cy Young $75,000
3rd place Cy Young $50,000
World Series MVP $100,000
LCS MVP $50,000

pedro
02-06-2007, 03:32 PM
More numbers (Lance's blog - MLB source)

4 years, 36.119 million dollars
2007 4.25 mill
2008 6.75 mill
2009 11.0 mill
2010 12.5 mill
2011 12.75 mill (club option). 13-mill if he throws 210+ innings in 2010. 2 mill buyout.
If traded...option becomes mutual and becomes 14-mill with a 2.5 mill buyout

Bonuses
All Star game $25,000
Cy Young $100,000
2nd place Cy Young $75,000
3rd place Cy Young $50,000
World Series MVP $100,000
LCS MVP $50,000

That's a good deal.

roby
02-06-2007, 03:43 PM
Applause and appreciation to Aaron Harang for signing a very reasonable deal in order to remain a Red! We should revere players like this who are team-oriented enough to show some loyalty. He could have held out and made much more long term money. I certainly hope that Reds fans and the Reds Org show the same loyalty in return! :thumbup:

Caveat Emperor
02-06-2007, 03:44 PM
That's a good deal.

More importantly, it locks Harang into today's dollar numbers. Given how volatile the market is, those 4th and 5th years could represent quite a savings.

pedro
02-06-2007, 03:46 PM
Applause and appreciation to Aaron Harang for signing a very reasonable deal in order to remain a Red! We should revere players like this who are team-oriented enough to show some loyalty. He could have held out and made much more long term money. I certainly hope that Reds fans and the Reds Org show the same loyalty in return! :thumbup:


well, i think you also have to look at it from a practical standpoint. could aaron have gotten more on the FA market when he was eligible? probably. however, he also could get hurt and never sniff that type of money again. being that he just became a father (iirc), i think he just weighed his options and took the prudent path.

Danny Serafini
02-06-2007, 03:51 PM
Interesting that his salary for this year is what the team offered in arbitration, when we all figured he'd win his case.

pedro
02-06-2007, 03:53 PM
More importantly, it locks Harang into today's dollar numbers. Given how volatile the market is, those 4th and 5th years could represent quite a savings.


Plus, if he continues to pitch well but the Reds still suck, that contract will be tradeable.

Caveat Emperor
02-06-2007, 03:53 PM
well, i think you also have to look at it from a practical standpoint. could aaron have gotten more on the FA market when he was eligible? probably. however, he also could get hurt and never sniff that type of money again. being that he just became a father (iirc), i think he just weighed his options and took the prudent path.

And, from the Reds point of view, they have a big-framed pitcher who works a smooth delivery to the plate and seems adept and repeating his form with every windup. He never seems to overthrow and has handled a heavy workload for 2 consecutive seasons now.

He seems like a low risk of that injury (knock knock) and that makes the term of the deal a good move for the club.

pedro
02-06-2007, 03:54 PM
And, from the Reds point of view, they have a big-framed pitcher who works a smooth delivery to the plate and seems adept and repeating his form with every windup. He never seems to overthrow and has handled a heavy workload for 2 consecutive seasons now.

He seems like a low risk of that injury and that makes the term of the deal a good move for the club.


I always worry about big (tall) guys and back problems, but I agree that it's a good risk.

redsmetz
02-06-2007, 03:56 PM
Interesting that his salary for this year is what the team offered in arbitration, when we all figured he'd win his case.

That's not uncommon. It's sort of a tip to the organization to work their budget while catching the dollars down the line.

noskill27
02-06-2007, 04:34 PM
More numbers (Lance's blog - MLB source)

4 years, 36.119 million dollars
2007 4.25 mill
2008 6.75 mill
2009 11.0 mill
2010 12.5 mill
2011 12.75 mill (club option). 13-mill if he throws 210+ innings in 2010. 2 mill buyout.
If traded...option becomes mutual and becomes 14-mill with a 2.5 mill buyout

Bonuses
All Star game $25,000
Cy Young $100,000
2nd place Cy Young $75,000
3rd place Cy Young $50,000
World Series MVP $100,000
LCS MVP $50,000

Congrats to Krivsky. I figured Harang was worth about a 4-year, $40 million deal, so not only did Krivsky get the deal done, he got it cheaper then I thought he would. Excellent job.

Now it up to Harang to take advantage of the improved defense and get his ERA on the same level as his other numbers...

vaticanplum
02-06-2007, 05:17 PM
I always worry about big (tall) guys and back problems

...who pitch sixty eleven innings a season...

Well, well done krivsky. I wonder if this was the plan all along or if they decided to go four+ years after witnessing the insanity of the free agent market this offseason. Either way, very intelligent and the best way the Reds could have spent their money, I think.

Since I'm one of few on this board who really likes the Gonzo signing, I think Krivsky & co. have done very well with their two major offseason moves. The little ones are the question. They could be used well and be wise spare part investments, or they could be used poorly and add up quickly. I'm not a Narron basher, but I will say that I would feel better about these little signings if the Reds had a truly bang-up manager who uses his little players to do the little things well (back up your baloney, Jerry). I suppose we'll see. But all told, I feel pretty good right now.

redsfanmia
02-06-2007, 05:25 PM
Good deal and it still makes him tradeable.

vaticanplum
02-06-2007, 05:36 PM
Good deal and it still makes him tradeable.

:eek: I appreciate your perspective, but I am not ready to use the T-word around Harang yet.

I might be reading too much into things here, but I think that this signing has the potential to make Harang a real hometown hero and franchise player in time. He's a workhorse and a quiet guy so that wasn't going to happen of its own accord. But the fact that he just signed an EXTREMELY reasonable deal and agreed to stay for at least for years on a team for which he's frankly overqualified, a team which hasn't had a winning season as long as he's been with it, will mean a lot to the fans, I suspect, as long as he keeps performing relatively well. He's one of few guys in baseball whom I can say may really be a "fit" for the city and the team. Well, the few guys who are good. God, I sound awful...do you guys know what I mean?

paulrichjr
02-06-2007, 06:14 PM
He has the potential to be mentioned in the same breath of the top Reds pitchers of all time. Guys like? You know? Tom Browning? No. Let's see Joe Nux...

redsfanmia
02-06-2007, 07:07 PM
:eek: I appreciate your perspective, but I am not ready to use the T-word around Harang yet.

I might be reading too much into things here, but I think that this signing has the potential to make Harang a real hometown hero and franchise player in time. He's a workhorse and a quiet guy so that wasn't going to happen of its own accord. But the fact that he just signed an EXTREMELY reasonable deal and agreed to stay for at least for years on a team for which he's frankly overqualified, a team which hasn't had a winning season as long as he's been with it, will mean a lot to the fans, I suspect, as long as he keeps performing relatively well. He's one of few guys in baseball whom I can say may really be a "fit" for the city and the team. Well, the few guys who are good. God, I sound awful...do you guys know what I mean?

All I am trying to say is its nice not to have to overpay for a guy to get him to stay. How long has it been since the Reds signed someone and soon after not gotten buyers romorse? The last few guys the Reds have signed for big money have all made me wish we would have never signed them at all i.e. Dunn, Milton, and Griffey.

registerthis
02-06-2007, 07:10 PM
The last few guys the Reds have signed for big money have all made me wish we would have never signed them at all i.e. Dunn

:explode:

RedEye
02-06-2007, 07:18 PM
All I am trying to say is its nice not to have to overpay for a guy to get him to stay. How long has it been since the Reds signed someone and soon after not gotten buyers romorse? The last few guys the Reds have signed for big money have all made me wish we would have never signed them at all i.e. Dunn, Milton, and Griffey.

You're having buyer's remorse on Dunn already? Sheesh... the guy has one bad month and he doesn't deserve his contract? What's going on here?

mth123
02-06-2007, 08:29 PM
Here's an easy one: the Phillies signed 27 y.o. Jayson Werth to an $850,000 contract and got a right-handed power bat with the speed and defensive abilities to play all three OF positions. They promptly jetisoned Jeff Conine whom the Reds, just as promtly, showered with $2M. The Reds could have just as easily had a younger, probably better player that filled more needs for them and saved $1.150M. That's usually referred to as a 'no-brainer'. (shrug)

Rem

:clap: I actually preferred Josh Phelps, but Werth is a good choice.

mth123
02-06-2007, 08:38 PM
The flip side of that though is giving a batch of players the Brian Reith treatment. Most of the organization's young relievers haven't pitched above AA. A bullpen of Salmon, Medlock and Coutlangus might be pretty decent someday, but right now it would just be throwing them to the wolves. I'd rather let them develop at their natural rate than call them up when they're not ready, it does no good to have them get torched. Even if the veterans stink it up, it frees up the young guys to develop in AAA and eventually become useful, instead of blowing them up and having nothing to replace them with.

Thats a fair point, but there were tons of middle relief guys out there that aren't 40 years old.

BTW, Salmon is 27 and Shack is 29. Its now or never for them. Coutlangus is 26 (but hasn't been pitching long) heck even Medlock is in his mid 20s. These aren't kids like Reith was.

Reith's problem wasn't failure, it was lack of maturity in handling it. If a guy doesn't have it by his mid20s, he likely never will IMO.

mth123
02-06-2007, 08:46 PM
By the way, got a little side tracked in this thread, but Kudos to WK and BCast for getting a great deal. This is a bargain for the Reds and some security for Harang.

This was a deal that needed to be made and the future looks a little brighter after this. I'll go on record now and say that should Harang somehow go south, this is not a deal to regret. Some times it just happens. I'll think this is a good deal 4 years from now no matter how Harang pitches.

ED44
02-06-2007, 10:20 PM
Wow...GREAT deal for the Reds. When you think of Gil Meche making $55 million over 5 years, getting Harang for that sounds too good to be true.

A future top 3 of Harang, Arroyo & bailey is sounding good to me...

shredda2000
02-06-2007, 10:34 PM
Way to Go Wayne!!!

I knew you could do it!!!

:jump:

jmac
02-06-2007, 11:17 PM
great move by WK and a special thanks to the A's for sending us Mr.Harang a few years ago !:thumbup:

Ron Madden
02-07-2007, 01:47 AM
Great move, well done Wayne.:clap: :clap: :clap:

bianchiveloce
02-07-2007, 02:13 AM
Yes! A sweet deal to be sure.

Plus, it does give us options down the road in that it is a tradable contract. Not that I would advocate trading Harang, but it is very smart to build some flexibility for the future.

fourrunhomer
02-07-2007, 10:16 AM
Exactly what I hoped for,but at a better price tag. I love the 4 year guanantee with rights to a 5th year. I envision harang being great far longer than another 5 years but this gives us his service at a very reasonable price without too much risk if he should tank or get hurt. Can you imagine what top tier starting pitchers will be getting 2-3 years from now. I have really liked Harang since he and Clausen got here and thought that they both would be stars. At least one of the two panned out.
For those who were panicking about Krivsky not getting this signing done, Did you really doubt he would be signed? Granted, none of us knew what the terms would be, but to go on like some of you did is just silly. To profess to know as much as some of you and think that a deal would not get done confounds me. I happen to like Krivsky and he is the one I put my 2 cents in for while we had this discussion last year. No, I haven't liked or at least have not understood every move. But, if he would not have had the sense to get this deal done (terms completely aside) he would not be a General Manager in the Major League.
I think I see exactly what Krusty means. It's not just that some of you don't like Krivsky. It's that you just let your dislike of him and mistrust lead you to premature assertions and assume every deal is bad and look for any way to put that spin on things: just like you accuse those who support him. You can come up with arguments to support your feelings either way.
I personally don't want to see you drink the koolaid, but don't just automatically complain about everything. Disliking losing does not make you not a fan, but constant complaining sometimes makes it seem that way.

redsfanmia
02-07-2007, 02:02 PM
You're having buyer's remorse on Dunn already? Sheesh... the guy has one bad month and he doesn't deserve his contract? What's going on here?

Do you think that Dunn is worth his contract? I think he is a 6 million dollar player, JMO, not a big fan of what Dunn does.

pedro
02-07-2007, 02:06 PM
Do you think that Dunn is worth his contract? I think he is a 6 million dollar player, JMO, not a big fan of what Dunn does.


If he OPS' .900+ he is. If not, no.

jojo
02-07-2007, 06:15 PM
If he OPS' .900+ he is. If not, no.

Right '04 Dunn is a $12M guy. Dunn '06 is a below league average $3M guy.

pedro
02-07-2007, 06:17 PM
Right '04 Dunn is a $12M guy. Dunn '06 is a below league average $3M guy.

I think that's pushing it..... he's not below average, even as poor a season as he had last year.

jojo
02-07-2007, 06:46 PM
I think that's pushing it..... he's not below average, even as poor a season as he had last year.


He absolutely was. His VORP was 23. His defense at best was -10. He would've been lucky to be a 1.5 win guy last year. That's decidely below average for a corner outfielder. That's ugly for $7M.