Mike Schmidt criticizes Dunn and Burrell at a Breakfast in Dayton

[tripleaaaron]

Schmidt criticizes Burrell for strikeouts
By Hal McCoy
COX NEWS SERVICE Posted on Fri, Feb. 09, 2007
Jim Salisbury | Phils big rig heads to Florida
Schmidt criticizes Burrell for strikeouts
DAYTON, Ohio - Unprompted, Mike Schmidt ticked off two names that, well, "tick me off. Pat Burrell and Adam Dunn, because they strike out so much."

This came from a guy who struck out 1,883 times during 18 years with the Phillies, including five seasons of more than 135 whiffs. He struck out so much early in his career that teammate Willie Montañez called him "Ah-choo" because strikeouts create the same breeze as a sneeze.

Schmidt, the keynote speaker yesterday morning at a breakfast in Dayton, Ohio, said he regretted the way he approached hitting during his Hall of Fame career.

"Now I know that if I had choked up on the bat with two strikes and hadn't been so aggressive and gave in to the pitcher, I wouldn't have struck out so much. And that's what guys like Dunn and Burrell have to realize," Schmidt added.

Schmidt said that with a game on the line, pitchers don't mind facing guys like the Reds' Dunn and the Phillies' Burrell because they know they can strike them out.

"How do I know this? Because when I played, pitchers wanted me up there with the game on the line," he said. "They'd rather face me than a guy behind me like Greg Luzinski, who would put the ball in play.

"I look at Dunn and Burrell and I go, 'My God, if these guys cut their strikeouts down to 75 or 80, they put the ball in play 85 or 90 more times a year.' That's at least 15 more home runs a year and at least 35 more RBIs a year."

Schmidt hit 548 home runs, was National League MVP four times, and was named the top major-league player of the 1980s, despite his strikeouts. He wonders whether Dunn and Burrell watch St. Louis superstar Albert Pujols, a guy who hits not only for power but also for average, and strikes out fewer than 70 times a year.

"I mean, why would Dunn and Burrell watch what Pujols does and not want to be like him, as good as he is?" Schmidt said. "When their careers are over, they are going to wonder how much they left on the table, how much they left on the field. If only they had choked up with two strikes, spread their stances out. What they are doing now is not great, it is mediocrity."


http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/16659180.htm
This was in Dayton, was anyone there?

[Spitball]

I remember Schmidt did cut his strikeouts annually to under one hundred a season late in his career while still remaining a homerun hitter. Basically, he changed his approach and stopped uppercutting.

[toledodan]

pot meet kettle.

[TeamBoone]

I don't think he should be naming names and then criticizing them, especially in public.

It's just flat out rude.

[redsfanmia]

pot meet kettle.

That was kind of his point.

[Spitball]

pot meet kettle.

Except Schmidt made the adjustments and cut down on his strikeouts. He struck out 180 times in 1975 but only 84 times in 1986 and 80 times in 1987. I think that is his point. It can be accomplished if the approach is changed, and Schmidt did just that.

[redsfanmia]

Except Schmidt made the adjustments and cut down on his strikeouts. He struck out 180 times in 1975 but only 84 times in 1986 and 80 times in 1987. I think that is his point. It can be accomplished if the approach is changed, and Schmidt did just that.

But that would take work, maybe Dunn would have to pick up is bat in the offseason, I dont think Dunn is up for that.

[Ron Madden]

Some things are better left unsaid..................

[Redlegs]

He's right in what he said about Adam Dunn. I cheer for Dunn because he's a Red, but besides the occasional homerun, I would challenge anybody to name a part of his game that's good enough to be a major leaguer.

[icehole3]

If Im not mistaken, Schmidt credited Pete for turning his career around.

[George Foster]

Schmidt is in the Hall. He can say what he want's to say. He is also 100% right.

[Sea Ray]

Because he's "been there" I think he has every right to criticize power hitting strike out kings. He's got more right to criticize than any of us.

Dunn can improve his game like Mike Schmidt did or he can become Rob Deer, Steve Balboni, Dave Kingman (take your pick). It's Dunn's problem. Not Schmidt's

[realistic]

Schmidt is in the Hall. He can say what he want's to say. He is also 100% right.

Thats the way i see it. Schmidt is offering advice that could help Dunn and Burrell, advice he wishes he had received earlier in his career. Maybe its not delivered in the most sensitive manner, but who cares. Point made.

[Team Clark]

Thats the way i see it. Schmidt is offering advice that could help Dunn and Burrell, advice he wishes he had received earlier in his career. Maybe its not delivered in the most sensitive manner, but who cares. Point made.

I agree. He didn't say either player "sucked'. He knows from EXPERIENCE what a difference in approach can make. He, like many of us, only want those players to perform better. They are good but they can be better. Reasonable expectation.

[Raisor]

I would challenge anybody to name a part of his game that's good enough to be a major leaguer.


This post makes Raisor cry.

:cry:

[pedro]

He's right in what he said about Adam Dunn. I cheer for Dunn because he's a Red, but besides the occasional homerun, I would challenge anybody to name a part of his game that's good enough to be a major leaguer.


Well you could start with his career OBP of .380.

[Redlegs]

Well you could start with his career OBP of .380.

When it comes to being too selective at the plate, resulting in base on balls, Dunner's the tops!

[Falls City Beer]

Is the hope here that the more one says something the less dumb it sounds?

[Gainesville Red]

My favorite part is when he ask's why they don't want to be good as Pujols.

Because it's that easy. Just have to want to be as good as Pujols.

Hell, I'd like to be as good as Pujols.

[tripleaaaron]

Thats the way i see it. Schmidt is offering advice that could help Dunn and Burrell, advice he wishes he had received earlier in his career. Maybe its not delivered in the most sensitive manner, but who cares. Point made.

I completely agree, I think him using thier names is actually a compliment to thier true ability, he is merely trying to offer advice so they can learn it much earlier.

[pedro]

When it comes to being too selective at the plate, resulting in base on balls, Dunner's the tops!

:sleep:

[Enrico Pallazzo]

I might just be stating the obvious here but look:

Dunn:
Career:4.7K/HR

Burrell:
Career: 5.4 K/HR

I mean come on...sure Dunn whiffs, but Burrell is much more the K or jack guy that Schmidt is talking about. He's just throwing Dunn under the bus so he doesn't look like he's trashing the Phils. And by the way just choke up and make contact with two strikes is the exact same advice they gave in Little Leauge. Is Schmidty coaching Pony ball somewhere?

[Yachtzee]

I might just be stating the obvious here but look:

Dunn:
Career:4.7K/HR

Burrell:
Career: 5.4 K/HR

I mean come on...sure Dunn whiffs, but Burrell is much more the K or jack guy that Schmidt is talking about. He's just throwing Dunn under the bus so he doesn't look like he's trashing the Phils. And by the way just choke up and make contact with two strikes is the exact same advice they gave in Little Leauge. Is Schmidty coaching Pony ball somewhere?

Hey, it's Enrico Pallazo! :)

[TeamBoone]

Except Schmidt made the adjustments and cut down on his strikeouts. He struck out 180 times in 1975 but only 84 times in 1986 and 80 times in 1987. I think that is his point. It can be accomplished if the approach is changed, and Schmidt did just that.

Gee, and it only took 11 years!

[tripleaaaron]

I might just be stating the obvious here but look:

Dunn:
Career:4.7K/HR

Burrell:
Career: 5.4 K/HR

I mean come on...sure Dunn whiffs, but Burrell is much more the K or jack guy that Schmidt is talking about. He's just throwing Dunn under the bus so he doesn't look like he's trashing the Phils. And by the way just choke up and make contact with two strikes is the exact same advice they gave in Little Leauge. Is Schmidty coaching Pony ball somewhere?

198 HR 927 K in 2832 AB's w/ a .245 career avg. for Dunn
188 HR 1017 K in 3527 AB's w/ a .258 career avg for Burrell

Yes while Dunn does have more power than Burrell, thus lower k/HR ratio, but Burrell's K per AB rate is lower than Dunn's
Dunn k's at a rate of .3273
Burrell's is .2884
So what does this tell us, Dunn strikes out more, but both if reducing there strikeout numbers to double digits could be incredible players, Dunn having much more potential

[Enrico Pallazzo]

198 HR 927 K in 2832 AB's w/ a .245 career avg. for Dunn
188 HR 1017 K in 3527 AB's w/ a .258 career avg for Burrell

Yes while Dunn does have more power than Burrell, thus lower k/HR ratio, but Burrell's K per AB rate is lower than Dunn's
Dunn k's at a rate of .3273
Burrell's is .2884
So what does this tell us, Dunn strikes out more, but both if reducing there strikeout numbers to double digits could be incredible players, Dunn having much more potential

I agree with you that Dunn has more potential. My point was that Dunn was less the free swinging HR or K guy that Schmidt was talking about than Burrell and he just threw him in there so he wouldn't look like he was trashing Philly. Dunn also walks a ton more than Burrell and has more plate discipline despite the higher Ks. The whole point being that I wouldn't lump Dunn in that K or HR category. His BBs are just too high for that.

[tripleaaaron]

I agree with you that Dunn has more potential. My point was that Dunn was less the free swinging HR or K guy that Schmidt was talking about than Burrell and he just threw him in there so he wouldn't look like he was trashing Philly. Dunn also walks a ton more than Burrell and has more plate discipline despite the higher Ks. The whole point being that I wouldn't lump Dunn in that K or HR category. His BBs are just too high for that.

I would definately say he should be in that category, he walked 112 times last season and struck out 194, again 194! 1 off his record.
Burrell 98 walks and 131 strike outs
Dunn K:BB Ratio : 1.732
Burrell 1.33
So again Burrell has a much better ratio, and again Doesn't Dunn have record for k's in a season for a hitter, sounds like a free-swinging HR guy to me, yes he does walk a good amount, but he strikes out nearly twice as often, 170% more. Thats worse than Burrell, so if Dunn is not in this category, Burrell isnt, who is?

[jmac]

I know this isnt exactly on topic but tonite I got to see some baseball magazines already out.
One projection had Dunn for 2007:
.267 avg 51 hr 119 rbi's

That my friend.....would be :thumbup:

[flyer85]

BP just this week did a profile of Dunn that suggested that what Schmidt is suggesting may not be true. And how would Mike know if it would work? He didn't try it himself(choking up with two strikes). He did strike out less as he matured as a player but he never took up the "put the ball in play with two strikes approach".

[Spitball]

BP just this week did a profile of Dunn that suggested that what Schmidt is suggesting may not be true. And how would Mike know if it would work? He didn't try it himself(choking up with two strikes). He did strike out less as he matured as a player but he never took up the "put the ball in play with two strikes approach".

Do you have proof that Schmidt never tried it himself? I know he changed his batting stance and bat angle in order to level his swing, but how do you know he never shortened up with two strikes? I think there is a likelyhood that he did. Actually, into the 1970's it was an expectation that any batter would shorten his swing with two strikes. Schmidt, along with Reggie Jackson, was actually one of the first who did not follow the age old hitting strategy. Then, as age and injuries took their toll, Schmidt became a smarter, more disciplined hitter. Just compare the 1975 Schmidt (25 years old) to the 1986 Schmidt (36 years old). He was a better more productive hitter as a 36 year old than he was at 25.
AB=562-552
Hr=38-37
RBI=95-119
BB=107-89
SO=180-84
OBP=.376-.390
SLG=.523-.547

In his book on hitting, Schmidt expresses regret that he didn't make adjustments earlier in his career. I have not read it in years, but I know he drastically cut his strikeouts by making adjustments. I'm certain he made both physical adjustments to his stance and stategic adjustments to his approach to hitting with two strikes. Cutting strikeouts from the 180 to 140 range to below 100 without sacrificing power production had to invlove adjustments.

[Redlegs]

I know this isnt exactly on topic but tonite I got to see some baseball magazines already out.
One projection had Dunn for 2007:
.267 avg 51 hr 119 rbi's

That my friend.....would be :thumbup:
I hope they're right. It would sure help the Reds.

[jojo]

BP just this week did a profile of Dunn that suggested that what Schmidt is suggesting may not be true. And how would Mike know if it would work? He didn't try it himself(choking up with two strikes). He did strike out less as he matured as a player but he never took up the "put the ball in play with two strikes approach".

I would say at this point, Schmidt has some authority to critique Dunn. Schmidt in his prime was an absolute offensive wrecking ball who by the way pretty much made himself into a gold-glove third baseman. Dunn has yet to reach that level offensively and never will touch Schmidt defensively.

[fearofpopvol1]

What's wrong with Schmidt's critique? He makes valid points, he played the game and was a fantastic player. He's not saying Dunn sucks, he's just saying how much better Dunn could be if he wanted to be.

I think he's dead on and I'm glad he said what he did. Maybe Dunn will take notice.

[Handofdeath]

But that would take work, maybe Dunn would have to pick up is bat in the offseason, I dont think Dunn is up for that.

Why should he? Do you have any idea how hard it is to hit a golf ball out of a sand trap with one?

[dsmith421]

What is it about Adam Dunn that stimulates everyone's inner idiot?

[Falls City Beer]

Schmidt was a freak of nature, and like Pete Rose before him, believes every hitter should and can be just like him.

The fact is that no amount of trying will turn Adam Dunn into Mike Schmidt. All one needs to do is look at their body types and see that Schmidt's size would allow him to close any hole in his swing, while Dunn's makes him just too vulnerable. Dunn could spend every last waking hour of his baseball career practicing to become Mike Schmidt and he won't ever become Mike Schmidt. It's just stupid to talk about it.

[Yachtzee]

Do you have proof that Schmidt never tried it himself? I know he changed his batting stance and bat angle in order to level his swing, but how do you know he never shortened up with two strikes? I think there is a likelyhood that he did. Actually, into the 1970's it was an expectation that any batter would shorten his swing with two strikes. Schmidt, along with Reggie Jackson, was actually one of the first who did not follow the age old hitting strategy. Then, as age and injuries took their toll, Schmidt became a smarter, more disciplined hitter. Just compare the 1975 Schmidt (25 years old) to the 1986 Schmidt (36 years old). He was a better more productive hitter as a 36 year old than he was at 25.
AB=562-552
Hr=38-37
RBI=95-119
BB=107-89
SO=180-84
OBP=.376-.390
SLG=.523-.547

In his book on hitting, Schmidt expresses regret that he didn't make adjustments earlier in his career. I have not read it in years, but I know he drastically cut his strikeouts by making adjustments. I'm certain he made both physical adjustments to his stance and stategic adjustments to his approach to hitting with two strikes. Cutting strikeouts from the 180 to 140 range to below 100 without sacrificing power production had to invlove adjustments.

Well, that may well be. However, at the point when Schmidt is supposed to have changed his approach, he had had the benefit of having seen a much greater quantity of major league pitching. Is there any guarantee he would have had the same success making that change at 27 as he did at 36?

Without being Adam Dunn, do we know the problems he has are related to not changing his approach? Or could they be related to so many coaches and and managers trying to change his approach that they got into his head?

[Yachtzee]

Schmidt was a freak of nature, and like Pete Rose before him, believes every hitter should and can be just like him.

The fact is that no amount of trying will turn Adam Dunn into Mike Schmidt. All one needs to do is look at their body types and see that Schmidt's size would allow him to close any hole in his swing, while Dunn's makes him just too vulnerable. Dunn could spend every last waking hour of his baseball career practicing to become Mike Schmidt and he won't ever become Mike Schmidt. It's just stupid to talk about it.

Another good point. Dunn is listed on baseball-reference.com as 6'6", while Schmidt is listed at 6'2". Would Schmidt have been nearly as successful making adjustments if he had those extra 4 inches?

[Spitball]

Well, that may well be. However, at the point when Schmidt is supposed to have changed his approach, he had had the benefit of having seen a much greater quantity of major league pitching. Is there any guarantee he would have had the same success making that change at 27 as he did at 36?

The adjustments Schmidt made were not new inovations. He simply applied practices that power hitters used to do all the time. Look at the strikeout totals of power hitters in the '50's and '60's and you'll see that they didn't strikeout nearly as often as today's sluggers. They made humanly possible adjustments because they wanted to.

Schmidt admits he should have made the same adjustments at a younger age. He didn't reinvent himself, but he did make adjustments. The adjustments he made were not remarkable but very basic.

For one thing, I remember that he angled his bat as the pitcher broke into his tee rather than holding it straight up. Holding the bat straight up caused his looping uppercut. By angling his bat, he acquired a more level swing similar to the one employed by Pujols. He found that it didn't mean sacrificing power.



Without being Adam Dunn, do we know the problems he has are related to not changing his approach? Or could they be related to so many coaches and and managers trying to change his approach that they got into his head?

With two strikes, there are simple adjustments that Dunn could make that would cut down on his strikeouts. First, Dunn is patient early in an at bat but too easily baited when he falls to two strikes. At the point he gets two strikes, he needs to shorten his swing. How? Simply spreading his legs would shorten his stroke, make it quicker, and allow him to wait longer on the pitch.

Hitters can make adjustments. It has nothing to do with being Mike Schmidt but about working on a particular aspect of the game.

[RedFanAlways1966]

Some things I'd like to share about Mike Schmidt. My late grandfather managed Schmidt's Fairview High School team. Gramps liked to keep all his old scorebooks. I had the oppotunity to look at Schmidt's games from his junior and senior years. I swear that he struckout at least once every single game. Also hit the HR from time to time. Not a lot of singles or doubles. Seemed like he whiffed half the time. I remember it well b/c I looked at the scorebooks when Schmidt was near retirement and it was obvious that he was destined to be in the Hall.

Gramps said that Schmidt was definitely a leader in striking out those years. Also pointed out that he had unreal natural power for a guy his size (strong wrists) in those years (thin build). The main reason he played was for his glove! Played shortstop for those teams and was a defensive force. Had it not been for his glove, he would not have started in his High School years.

[remdog]

That's an interesting post, '66. Thanks. I didn't know any of that.

In those days Ohio University always had a pretty highly ranked baseball program. Now, I'm curious, did OU sign him primarily for his defense and his bat became a bonus? Does your granddad know?

I think Bob Wren was the coach there but I'm doing that off of the top of my head so I could very well be wrong about that.

Rem

[RedFanAlways1966]

In those days Ohio University always had a pretty highly ranked baseball program. Now, I'm curious, did OU sign him primarily for his defense and his bat became a bonus? Does your granddad know?

I think Bob Wren was the coach there but I'm doing that off of the top of my head so I could very well be wrong about that.

Rem

You are right, rem, it was Bob Wren. Gramps told me that Schmidt was given a shot at OU more-or-less as a favor to a bigshot in the Dayton amatuer leagues. The amatuer leagues in Dayton were more involved in those days. The local guy (who's name slips me) thought Schmidt had serious potential... not only b/c of the glove, but also because of those strong wrists and how the ball would fly off the bat when (and if!) he made contact. The local guy was good friends with Bob Wren and helped Wren get guys from the Dayton area. In return the local products would play for his team in the summer amateur leagues in Dayton. The glove was always there, the bat was something that the baseball-men thought could be brought out... and boy were they right.

When I was a youngster my father (who was a coach on Schmidt's HS team), my grandfather and I used to go see the Phillies when they'd play at Riverfront. We'd get there during BP and hang by the Phils dugout. Schmidt would always stop over and speak to my dad and grandfather. As a 9-to-13 year-old kid, I was always in awe and a closet Phils fan b/c of it. I have still have the Topps baseball cards that he signed for me during those trips.

[remdog]

Thanks for the insight, '66. It's interesting to look back on the days when a future HOF'er was just trying to make the team.

Rem

[fearofpopvol1]

I don't think anyone is denying that Dunn can't be Mike Schmidt or a player that is similar to Mike. However, Dunn can be a better player (both offensively and defensively) and hopefully he will be.

[RedFanAlways1966]

However, Dunn can be a better player (both offensively and defensively) and hopefully he will be.

Offensively would be a great thing. Defensively would be near impossible. Mike Schmidt won 10 Gold Gloves at 3rd base in the National League. And Schmidt was a legit gold-glover... not one of those guys who gets it b/c he is "the name" and the guy who hits at his position the best (as we sometimes see when the GG is awarded). To hold Adam Dunn to that kind of defensive expectation is not fair and it should not be expected.

[fearofpopvol1]

That's not at all what I'm saying. What I am saying is he CAN become a better defensive player than what he currently is. Whether he does or not is in his hands to some degree. Here's to hoping that he does improve.

[RedFanAlways1966]

That's not at all what I'm saying. What I am saying is he CAN become a better defensive player than what he currently is. Whether he does or not is in his hands to some degree. Here's to hoping that he does improve.

Gothca! I thought you meant he could be better than Mike Schmidt. :)

[fearofpopvol1]

Ha, no...definitely not! That's for sure not going to happen!

[IndyPhils]

How much help does Burrell need? With a bad foot he still had a .890 OPS. Admittedly, Dunn had a bad season for him. Above average across the league including the near 200 K's.

The Phillies nearly jettisoned Burrell for Soriano this past year. Even with the 46 HR's Soriano's Ops only beat Burrell .911 to .890. But if you compare the last few years, they Burrell comes out on top.

Schmidt did cut way down on K's at the end of his career. He kept his production up to boot. However, he shouldn't be calling out players in the media like this. It happens too often in Philly. The Media/Phils Head Office ran Schilling , Rolen, and Abreu out of town. Got virtually nothing back.

If the Reds start to criticize Dunn in the Press and on air, they're probably looking to move him.

Anyways, the teams who strike out most usually are at the top of the league in runs scored. Strikeouts don't matter much in the long haul. A hangover of embarrassment from all our little league days, IMHO.

[CINCYREDS#1]

Dunn understands basis of 'mediocre' comment
By Jayson Stark
ESPN.com

SARASOTA, Fla. -- It took a few days. But word finally reached big Reds bopper Adam Dunn on Saturday that Mike Schmidt can't understand why he strikes out so much.

Dunn's bemused response: "I can't either."

"If you'd told me five or six years ago that I'd strike out this many times, I'd have said you were crazy," said Dunn, the only player in history to have two 190-strikeout seasons on the back of his baseball card. "So I'm with him on that."

Schmidt issued a written statement of apology Monday for using the word "mediocre" to describe Dunn and strikeout-prone Phillies leftfielder Pat Burrell in an interview he did last month with the Dayton Daily News' Hall of Fame baseball writer, Hal McCoy. But Dunn wasn't aware of either the initial criticism or the apology until he was informed of it by ESPN.com on Saturday.


When told of Schmidt's use of the word "mediocre," Dunn replied, "Well, that's a Hall of Fame opinion. I'm not proud of it, either. But I don't need somebody going around saying it when I already know it. I don't need to hear it from people. I think some of these guys forget how hard the game was."


In fact, though, Schmidt -- who once whiffed 180 times in a season himself -- did say he saw a lot of himself in both Dunn and Burrell. But Schmidt also said he aspired his entire career to cut down those strikeouts and become a different kind of hitter than what he was early in his career.


"I think everyone does," said Dunn. "I don't want to be the kind of hitter I am. I know I'm better, and it's frustrating. It just tells you how hard the game is. I know it's in there. I've done it. It's in there, and it's coming out. I just don't know when."

[CINCYREDS#1]

until you can hit 40 HRs a season, dont talk

dunn is a top hitter

[edabbs44]

until you can hit 40 HRs a season, dont talk

dunn is a top hitter

Huh?

[HalMorrisRules]

until you can hit 40 HRs a season, dont talk

dunn is a top hitter

This is wrong on so many different levels.