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OnBaseMachine
02-11-2007, 10:14 AM
Old school's back in session
BY JOHN FAY | JFAY@ENQUIRER.COM

Camp Jerry II will be a lot like Camp Jerry I, i.e., the Reds won't spend a lot of time chit-chatting when spring training begins. Instead, they'll get down to the serious manual labor of baseball.

"I'm not a believer in eye wash," Reds manager Jerry Narron said. "I don't want to spend 12 hours out there to try to impress someone. I want them to go about their business and get their work in."

The Reds open camp in Sarasota on Saturday, when pitchers and catchers report. The first workout will either be Feb. 18 in the afternoon or Feb. 19 in the morning. Position players report Feb. 21. The first full-squad workout is Feb. 23.

Narron is an old-school baseball guy. The camp he runs borrows heavily from the system Baltimore manager Paul Richards came up with in the 1950s.

"It's time-tested," Narron said. "I thought it worked well last year. I think that's one of the reasons we got off to a good start."

Things are a lot more settled going into camp this year. Last year, the Reds were planning to move Adam Dunn from left field to first base. Three players - Tony Womack, Rich Aurilia and Ryan Freel - were competing for the second-base job.

The club was hoping Paul Wilson would recover sufficiently from shoulder surgery to join the rotation.

The Reds were counting heavily on low-priced free agents Chris Hammond and Rick White to help in the bullpen.

This year, the starting eight is set. Four of the five spots in the rotation are locks. And the bullpen is fairly settled, too.

The questions going in are:

Who's going to be the fifth starter? Veteran right-hander Kirk Saarloos is the favorite. But Matt Belisle, Elizardo Ramirez, Bobby Livingston and (dare we say it?) Homer Bailey also will get a look.

Who's going to be the closer? The plan is to use a committee, with David Weathers and Mike Stanton getting the bulk of the chances.

Will Ken Griffey make the switch from center field to right? Griffey is open to the idea. Whether it happens will be determined shortly after the games begin March 3.

What about Josh Hamilton? The Rule 5 pickup will get every chance to make the club. "We have to see if he plays well enough to stick," Narron said.

Who's the 25th man? "Do we want to go with an infielder, an outfielder or a catcher?" Narron said.

The Reds carried three catchers all of last season. But players like Jerry Gil and Chris Denorfia might be able to sway the Reds' opinion on that philosophy with a strong spring.

Narron's second spring as Reds manager gives him more time to instill his "play it hard, play it right" mantra. The Reds made strides in that area last season. But work remains to be done.

"We've got to do the little things right," Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky said. "I'm sure Jerry will talk a lot about that this spring."

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070211/SPT04/702110454/1071/SPT

Tom Servo
02-11-2007, 10:23 AM
Who's the 25th man? "Do we want to go with an infielder, an outfielder or a catcher?" Narron said.

:bang:

Scrap Irony
02-11-2007, 10:32 AM
The idea that Chris Denorfia is mentioned after Josh Hamilton scares the beejeebers out of me.

Denorfia is a solid, above average CF.

Let's hope Narron knows that and this article is simply window dressing.

Redhook
02-11-2007, 10:43 AM
"We've got to do the little things right," Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky said. "I'm sure Jerry will talk a lot about that this spring."


I really like this "new" way of thinking. :D

Razor Shines
02-11-2007, 11:04 AM
So the article said the starting 8 is set. And then it mentioned Deno as a possible 25th man. So either Fay doesn't know what he's talking about or sickeningly Freel is one of the 8 that are set. I hope Fay doesn't know what he's talking about, but I have a feeling Ryan Freel will be our opening day lead off man.

Shaggy Sanchez
02-11-2007, 11:12 AM
In the paper today they had Freel listed as a starter and Deno as not even making the 25 man. This team will have 3 catchers and no Deno in my opinion.

Marge'sMullet
02-11-2007, 12:10 PM
I'm not a Deno fan, from what I saw from him last year. I don't think he can or will stick much longer. I would like to see Hamilton make the 25 man so that we don't have to send him back.

Hamilton has much more upside than Denorfia. Of course we will have to see how Josh does in ST, but I really pulling for the guy and I hope we might have gotten a real steal.

fielder's choice
02-11-2007, 01:10 PM
Why does everyone want Denorfia to start over Freel? :confused:

George Anderson
02-11-2007, 01:25 PM
Why does everyone want Denorfia to start over Freel? :confused:

I like Freel alot but his past history shows he cannot stay healthy for 162 games. I'm basically just rooting for Deno to produce at the same level as Freel because I doubt he is as injury prone as Freel. But if Deno cannot produce at the same level then no one including myself wants him over Freel.

gilpdawg
02-11-2007, 01:27 PM
Why does everyone want Denorfia to start over Freel? :confused:

I have no idea. I don't get it either. I've never been impressed with Deno. He's a fourth OF, at best, IMO. I'd play Freel as your everyday CF but give Deno spot starts so Freel doesn't wear down like he tends to do.

deltachi8
02-11-2007, 01:29 PM
Why does everyone want Denorfia to start over Freel? :confused:

He is a superior defender with good OB skills.

Freel is ultra scrappy though, not sure Deno could match up in that category.

Scrap Irony
02-11-2007, 01:31 PM
Denorfia projects to have a bit more pop in his bat, is a few years younger (and cheaper), and already owns the better glove, baserunning instincts, and a cannon for an arm.

Too, playing Denorfia in center field most of the time allows Freel to wander around the diamond, playing at least five positions (3B, 2B, LF, CF, and RF), thereby significantly strengthening the bench.

reds44
02-11-2007, 01:39 PM
Ryan Freel can't play everyday, you have to have a capable backup for him. Having Hamilton as his backup scares the (pooh) out of me. The Reds must really not like Deno.

Also, I would love to see some of the young guys step up and take some jobs. Whether it be Hamilton, Gil, Livingston, Homer, or whoever. I don't care.

jmac
02-11-2007, 02:01 PM
I have no idea. I don't get it either. I've never been impressed with Deno. He's a fourth OF, at best, IMO. I'd play Freel as your everyday CF but give Deno spot starts so Freel doesn't wear down like he tends to do.

If you give deno spot starts for Freel and some for Jr, then he would get a bunch of AB's.
My gut feeling is Narron will start Freel too.

KronoRed
02-11-2007, 02:04 PM
:bang:

Narron was a catcher so the 3rd catcher is a foregone conclusion.

Ltlabner
02-11-2007, 02:06 PM
Who's going to be the fifth starter? Veteran right-hander Kirk Saarloos is the favorite. But Matt Belisle, Elizardo Ramirez, Bobby Livingston and (dare we say it?) Homer Bailey also will get a look.

"We've got to do the little things right," Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky said. "I'm sure Jerry will talk a lot about that this spring."


So I guess Santos is not a consideration for the starting 5? That's not neccessarly a bad thing, but did he fall off the radar screen already?

Jerry's been talking about "the little things" for quite a while. He's not been able to make much headway in that department for all his talking.

Ltlabner
02-11-2007, 02:09 PM
In the paper today they had Freel listed as a starter and Deno as not even making the 25 man. This team will have 3 catchers and no Deno in my opinion.

:barf:

I'm not in the "Deno is a superhero" camp, but if Mohler gets the nod over Deno......yikes. Frankly, if Mohler gets the nod over anybody, up to and includeing Bernie Stowe and Cheif Bender, it would be a horrible decision.

HumnHilghtFreel
02-11-2007, 02:29 PM
I'll definitely be disappointed if Moeller makes the 25 man roster.

As far as Deno goes, I'm fine with him as the 4th outfielder to spell Freel and and Griffey every couple games. I'm not a big fan of his, but I think he's more than capable as a backup plan rather than a starter.

TexasRed
02-11-2007, 03:01 PM
Sorry for my lack of knowledge on Hamilton, but does anyone know what his D is like? I know he is advertised as having huge upside/five tools and all that, but what is reality? Can he play CF?

Yachtzee
02-11-2007, 05:43 PM
Old School's back in session?

We're going streaking. Who's with me?

http://sportsmed.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/old_school.jpg

fielder's choice
02-11-2007, 06:46 PM
He is a superior defender with good OB skills.

Freel is ultra scrappy though, not sure Deno could match up in that category.

Freel is an above average fielder and is much better offensively.

flyer85
02-11-2007, 06:57 PM
Why does everyone want Denorfia to start over Freel? :confused:maybe because there is a good chance he will be the better player in 2007.

CWRed
02-11-2007, 07:07 PM
Why don't we just carry 4 catchers? Surely if Jerry N. thinks 3 catchers are needed, then obviously carrying 4 would make the club even scrappier. :rolleyes:

flyer85
02-11-2007, 07:15 PM
Why don't we just carry 4 catchers? Surely if Jerry N. thinks 3 catchers are needed, then obviously carrying 4 would make the club even scrappier. :rolleyes:there is some baseball wisdom in there somewhere

cacollinsmba
02-11-2007, 10:02 PM
The idea that Chris Denorfia is mentioned after Josh Hamilton scares the beejeebers out of me.

Denorfia is a solid, above average CF.

Let's hope Narron knows that and this article is simply window dressing.


Am I the only one who questions whether Hamilton is Narron's get out of jail card with Griffey? Hamilton is a natural RF - getting him playing time in ST will mean time spent in RF - perhaps meaning more time for Griffey in CF. I understand that Narron has known Hamilton for a long time and is hoping he pulls off a miracle, but I see him as a potential "excuse" to play Griffey in CF.

reds44
02-11-2007, 10:16 PM
Am I the only one who questions whether Hamilton is Narron's get out of jail card with Griffey? Hamilton is a natural RF - getting him playing time in ST will mean time spent in RF - perhaps meaning more time for Griffey in CF. I understand that Narron has known Hamilton for a long time and is hoping he pulls off a miracle, but I see him as a potential "excuse" to play Griffey in CF.
Why do you think Narron is looking for an excuse to keep Griffey in CF? That makes no sense. Hamilton will play where he can when he can. You will probably see him at all 3 spots during the year.

BRM
02-11-2007, 11:42 PM
Freel is an above average fielder and is much better offensively.

Freel might be above average defensively but Deno is better. Offensively is likely a push with Deno having an edge in power and Freel potentially having an edge in OBP.

RichRed
02-12-2007, 10:33 AM
"We've got to do the little things right,"

Ugh. Just once - ONCE - I'd like to hear, "We need to work on doing the big things right." It would sound just as dumb, but at least it would be different.

Heath
02-12-2007, 10:51 AM
Ugh. Just once - ONCE - I'd like to hear, "We need to work on doing the big things right." It would sound just as dumb, but at least it would be different.

But little things plus little things = big things.

Don't you know Math of Baseball? Because strikeouts are bad and Batting Average gauges hitting.

:rolleyes:

MississippiRed
02-12-2007, 10:52 AM
Why don't we just carry 4 catchers? Surely if Jerry N. thinks 3 catchers are needed, then obviously carrying 4 would make the club even scrappier. :rolleyes:

I joined RZ in April 2006. I am so sorry I missed the discussions at this time last year. Rick White, Chris Hammond, the starting pitching, questions about Arroyo, Ross, Phillips, Claussen, Milton . . . I bet it was hilarious.

Don't you think we are in much better shape overall in Feb. '07 than we were in Feb. '06?

osuceltic
02-12-2007, 10:59 AM
Ugh. Just once - ONCE - I'd like to hear, "We need to work on doing the big things right." It would sound just as dumb, but at least it would be different.

Here's the thing ... You can't really change the big things without changing people. You're not going to suddenly make Junior younger or Milton better. But if you do the little things right -- play solid defense, take extra bases, keep opposing runners from taking extra bases, execute basic plays like sacrifices and cutoffs, run hard on ground balls -- they add up over the course of the season.

The Reds do not do the little things well, and that adds up also ... in a negative sense.

cacollinsmba
02-12-2007, 11:30 AM
Why do you think Narron is looking for an excuse to keep Griffey in CF? That makes no sense. Hamilton will play where he can when he can. You will probably see him at all 3 spots during the year.

Many posters in RedsZone don't believe that Narron has the guts to move Griffey out of CF. So to me, it makes plenty of sense that he would find excuses to not move Griffey because he doesn't want to deal with Griffey complaining about it. Many people are skeptical that Griffey is moved out of CF. Count me among them. And I will go so far as to say Hamilton's development (if he makes the team) will be cited as a key reason as to why Griffey is not moved.

Ltlabner
02-12-2007, 11:35 AM
Many posters in RedsZone don't believe that Narron has the guts to move Griffey out of CF. So to me, it makes plenty of sense that he would find excuses to not move Griffey because he doesn't want to deal with Griffey complaining about it. Many people are skeptical that Griffey is moved out of CF. Count me among them. And I will go so far as to say Hamilton's development (if he makes the team) will be cited as a key reason as to why Griffey is not moved.

So what's the reasoning for all the rumors and comments about the "possibility" of Jr moving to RF? That we are even hearing these rumors in public means there's a lot more going on behind closed doors, IMO.

Whether his is moved or not is up in the air. For a player of Jr's stature, I think Wayne and BCast will have more input than Narron would. In a normall situation Narron would deal with it and that would likely be the end of it. But for Jr, I can see Wayne and BCast being called in to help "talk to Jr." if it was needed.

BRM
02-12-2007, 11:39 AM
So what's the reasoning for all the rumors and comments about the "possibility" of Jr moving to RF? That we are even hearing these rumors in public means there's a lot more going on behind closed doors, IMO.

Whether his is moved or not is up in the air. For a player of Jr's stature, I think Wayne and BCast will have more input than Narron would. In a normall situation Narron would deal with it and that would likely be the end of it. But for Jr, I can see Wayne and BCast being called in to help "talk to Jr." if it was needed.

Well, along with all those rumors is a statement from Narron saying that if ST started today, Junior would be in CF. We'll have to wait until opening day to find out if the Reds organization has the guts to move Junior to RF.

Ltlabner
02-12-2007, 11:41 AM
Well, along with all those rumors is a statement from Narron saying that if ST started today, Junior would be in CF. We'll have to wait until opening day to find out if the Reds organization has the guts to move Junior to RF.

Frankly, I take that as posturing and a nod to Jr's ego.

Lot's of things would be different if spring training "started today". So saying that doesn't mean much, IMO.

BRM
02-12-2007, 11:51 AM
Frankly, I take that as posturing and a nod to Jr's ego.

Lot's of things would be different if spring training "started today". So saying that doesn't mean much, IMO.

That's kind of what I'm getting at. All of the words that have spoken to this point are rather meaningless. Actions are what matters in this case so we'll have to wait and see what happens during ST and especially on opening day.

Ltlabner
02-12-2007, 11:54 AM
That's kind of what I'm getting at. All of the words that have spoken to this point are rather meaningless. Actions are what matters in this case so we'll have to wait and see what happens during ST and especially on opening day.

I agree...that the end result is the important part of the equation. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Moving Jr to RF is a major task on Waynes to-do list.

I was just pointing out that even disussing the idea, and publically admitting it's a possibility bodes well. At the very least, it's an improvement over past years of "Jr's the CF period".

BRM
02-12-2007, 11:54 AM
I was just pointing out that even disussing the idea, and publically admitting it's a possibility bodes well. At the very least, it's an improvement over past years of "Jr's the CF period".

I definitely agree with that. It's a good start and an encouraging sign. I'm still not holding my breath though.

Team Clark
02-12-2007, 12:40 PM
So either Fay doesn't know what he's talking about or sickeningly Freel is one of the 8 that are set. I hope Fay doesn't know what he's talking about, but I have a feeling Ryan Freel will be our opening day lead off man.

This quite honestly is why I do not read John Fay. Garbage. Clueless speculation to meet his weekly requirement. Poor (at best) overall reporting. If you even call it reporting.

TeamSelig
02-12-2007, 01:17 PM
Where does the Denorfia power potential come from? He hit 1 HR last year if I'm not mistaken. Just don't see him hitting for power, ever. ???

BRM
02-12-2007, 01:58 PM
Where does the Denorfia power potential come from? He hit 1 HR last year if I'm not mistaken. Just don't see him hitting for power, ever. ???

I don't think he has a whole lot of power potential but I think he potentially has more pop than Freel. He had decent slugging percentages in AAA in 2005 and 2006.

cacollinsmba
02-12-2007, 04:17 PM
So what's the reasoning for all the rumors and comments about the "possibility" of Jr moving to RF? That we are even hearing these rumors in public means there's a lot more going on behind closed doors, IMO.

Whether his is moved or not is up in the air. For a player of Jr's stature, I think Wayne and BCast will have more input than Narron would. In a normall situation Narron would deal with it and that would likely be the end of it. But for Jr, I can see Wayne and BCast being called in to help "talk to Jr." if it was needed.

I never suggested that there is no truth to the rumors that Griffey could move. My point is if he gripes about the move when it is actually spring training and he is asked to regularly play RF, or if (as he may have suggested) he will be unhappy if he doesn't feel that the OF replacing him in CF is a better fielder, it will be very convenient for Hamilton to be an excuse to not follow through with leaving Griffey in RF.

I do, however, agree that Krivsky and especially Castellini have more control over the situation than Narron.