Which Red Never Got a Full Chance to develop

[redsupport]

How about the great greg Garrett traded for Jim Maloney?

[westofyou]

How about the great greg Garrett traded for Jim Maloney?

Came in fat and with a big old mustache.... plus he was a lefty.

[George Anderson]

If you are talking about someone who didnt develop as a Red but later on did, then Trevor Hoffman and Paul Konerko tops the list.

[fearofpopvol1]

D'Angelo Jiminez

[Wallyposter]

Brady Clark.

[westofyou]

Hank Sauer

George McQuinn

[RedsManRick]

Wily Mo -- Boston is doing the same thing. I'd love to see that kid get 600 PA.

[westofyou]

Ken Williams

[durl]

Wily Mo -- Boston is doing the same thing. I'd love to see that kid get 600 PA.

I don't think Wily Mo could reach is potential in the NL.

[camisadelgolf]

To me, the Reds have a tendency to give players too much opportunity, but here are some names I can think of (many of whom are very debateable):

Dennys Reyes
Stan Jefferson
Dan Wilson
Hector Carrasco
Rick Reed
Giovanni Carrara
Joey Eischen
Todd Williams
B.J. Ryan
Bruce Chen
Brandon Larson









(just kidding about Brandon Larson)

[Heath]

Joe Adcock

Paul O'Neill

BTW - woy, I expect to see a homage to the Cleveland Crusaders and Gerry Cheevers or the Indianapolis Races and Wayne Gretzky before the end of the month.

Little known WHA fact - and there are a ton of them - one of the original 8 franchises were headed to Dayton to become the Aeros. UD Arena didn't want to deal with the ice and Hara Arena was too small and off the team went to Houston and promptly won a couple of AVCO Cups.

[Team Clark]

Adam Dunn :laugh: :laugh: JK!!!

Brady Clark was already mentioned but he was/is a solid fundamental player. Reminded me of Kevin McReynolds.

Ryan Wagner for sure.

[GoReds]

DT Cromer.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Team Clark]

DT Cromer.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I really liked him. Nice all around guy and not a bad stick.

[GoReds]

I really liked him. Nice all around guy and not a bad stick.

Nothing against DT, TC. Way back when, there were a couple of posters who were really hot-n-bothered that DT didn't make it with the Reds.

[Joseph]

Wade Rowdon.

Actually I have no idea if he did or didn't, he was just "the man'' when I first started collecting baseball cards....replacing Buddy Bell and all that, so I've always had an unnatural opinion of him, even though I couldn't tell you the first thing about him outside what his 87 Topps looks like.

[Cooper]

I thought Chanp Summers and Harry Spliman should've got a better chance when younger. By the time they got to play they were both on the downside of their careers.

[George Anderson]

I thought Chanp Summers and Harry Spliman should've got a better chance when younger. By the time they got to play they were both on the downside of their careers.

Champ Summers didnt join the Reds organization till he was 31. I lived thru his amazing 1977 year with the Indianapolis Indians where he just missed the AAA Triple Crown by losing the batting title by two points. He was an amazing minor leaguer but didn't do squat in the bigs.

Harry Spillman was from the same era and highly regarded here in Indy. If I recall he was actually in competition with Ray Knight to replace Rose in Spring Training 1977.

[Tools of Ignorance]

Who was the 1B that never really got a chance with the Reds and ended up going to Japan?

Edited: Roberto Petagine

[George Anderson]

Who was the 1B that never really got a chance with the Reds and ended up going to Japan?

Roberto Petagini?

[klw]

Here's my odd choice: Eric Davis
What if he had been able to stay healthy?

[Puffy]

John Roper

[RichRed]

Wade Rowdon.

Actually I have no idea if he did or didn't, he was just "the man'' when I first started collecting baseball cards....replacing Buddy Bell and all that, so I've always had an unnatural opinion of him, even though I couldn't tell you the first thing about him outside what his 87 Topps looks like.

Aided by the fact, no doubt, that roughly 1 out of every 2.5 Topps '87 baseball card packs had a Wade Rowdon in it.

[texasdave]

Little-known worst Reds' trade of all-time. Cincinnati gave up Jeff Montgomery for Van Snider. Montgomery went on to register over 300 career saves. Snider went on to post a career OPS of .508. :cry:

[roby]

Tommy Harper. If I recall he found some power in his bat after he left the Reds...even though it was for a short time!

[westofyou]

Tommy Harper. If I recall he found some power in his bat after he left the Reds...even though it was for a short time!

Harper was an enigma somewhat. A guy who need batting average to drive him to elite status.

As Red


CINCINNATI REDS

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1962 Reds 21 6 23 1 4 0 0 0 0.00 1 2 6 1 0 .174 .174 .240 .414
1963 Reds 22 129 408 67 106 12 3 10 2.45 37 44 72 12 1 .260 .377 .335 .712
1964 Reds 23 102 317 42 77 5 2 4 1.26 22 39 56 24 3 .243 .309 .326 .635
1965 Reds 24 159 646 126 166 28 3 18 2.79 64 78 127 35 6 .257 .393 .340 .733
1966 Reds 25 149 553 85 154 22 5 5 0.90 31 57 85 29 10 .278 .363 .348 .711
1967 Reds 26 103 365 55 82 17 3 7 1.92 22 43 51 23 8 .225 .345 .306 .651
TOTALS 648 2312 376 589 84 16 44 1.90 177 263 397 124 28 .255 .362 .333 .695
LG AVERAGE 2335 284 607 93 19 57 2.44 264 202 363 32 21 .260 .389 .321 .710
POS AVERAGE 2364 317 629 99 21 70 2.96 292 215 402 44 22 .266 .414 .329 .743

As a AL Player

TOMMY HARPER


AMERICAN LEAGUE

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1968 Indians 27 130 235 26 51 15 2 6 2.55 26 26 56 11 7 .217 .374 .295 .670
1969 Pilots 28 148 537 78 126 10 2 9 1.68 41 95 90 73 18 .235 .311 .349 .660
1970 Brewers 29 154 604 104 179 35 4 31 5.13 82 77 107 38 16 .296 .522 .377 .899
1971 Brewers 30 152 585 79 151 26 3 14 2.39 52 65 92 25 3 .258 .385 .333 .717
1972 Red Sox 31 144 556 92 141 29 2 14 2.52 49 67 104 25 7 .254 .388 .341 .730
1973 Red Sox 32 147 566 92 159 23 3 17 3.00 71 61 93 54 14 .281 .422 .351 .774
1974 Red Sox 33 118 443 66 105 15 3 5 1.13 24 46 65 28 12 .237 .318 .312 .630
1975 Angels 34 89 285 40 68 10 1 3 1.05 31 38 51 19 8 .239 .312 .329 .642
A's 34 34 69 11 22 4 0 2 2.90 7 5 9 7 0 .319 .464 .373 .837
TOTALS 123 354 51 90 14 1 5 1.41 38 43 60 26 8 .254 .342 .337 .679
1976 Orioles 35 46 77 8 18 5 0 1 1.30 7 10 16 4 3 .234 .338 .318 .656
TOTALS 1162 3957 596 1020 172 20 102 2.58 390 490 683 284 88 .258 .389 .341 .730
LG AVERAGE 3936 475 1002 153 24 93 2.36 444 401 582 64 39 .254 .376 .325 .701
POS AVERAGE 3957 499 1023 155 24 108 2.74 474 418 596 80 46 .258 .392 .331 .723

[redsupport]

Do you think Mo Sanford was given a legitimate opportunity?

[TeamBoone]

Ryan Wagner is the first player that jumps into my mind.

[vic715]

Mike Caldwell is the one guy I always think of when I think of ones that got away. He was with the Reds for the first two and a half months of the 77 season and was traded to the Brewers on June 15 the night the Reds aquired Seaver.Caldwell went on to go 51-26 the next 3 seasons.The Reds got two mior league players (dick okeefe,gary pyka) who never even got a spring training invite.

[Sabo Fan]

Ryan Wagner for sure.

Wagner was rushed to be sure, but his attitude upon going back to the minors could have been his biggest problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the word that he was just plain uncoachable after he got a taste of the major leagues and then went back down the following spring? If that's the case, then it has nothing to do with the fact that he never got a chance to develop, but rather he didn't believe he needed to.

[wheels]

Scotti Madison.

[UKFlounder]

Frank Robinson :p:

On a sadder note, Dernell Stenson, may he RIP :(

[Strikes Out Looking]

Hal McRae and Fidel Castro

[MartyFan]

I think this topic could go a couple of ways....were the players dropped from the team and then developed elsewhere or were they part of a trade to bring in more parts?

[Heath]

Hal McRae and Fidel Castro


Fidel, when he pitched, kept missing to the left.



Harper was an enigma somewhat. A guy who need batting average to drive him to elite status.

As Red


CINCINNATI REDS

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1962 Reds 21 6 23 1 4 0 0 0 0.00 1 2 6 1 0 .174 .174 .240 .414
1963 Reds 22 129 408 67 106 12 3 10 2.45 37 44 72 12 1 .260 .377 .335 .712
1964 Reds 23 102 317 42 77 5 2 4 1.26 22 39 56 24 3 .243 .309 .326 .635
1965 Reds 24 159 646 126 166 28 3 18 2.79 64 78 127 35 6 .257 .393 .340 .733
1966 Reds 25 149 553 85 154 22 5 5 0.90 31 57 85 29 10 .278 .363 .348 .711
1967 Reds 26 103 365 55 82 17 3 7 1.92 22 43 51 23 8 .225 .345 .306 .651
TOTALS 648 2312 376 589 84 16 44 1.90 177 263 397 124 28 .255 .362 .333 .695
LG AVERAGE 2335 284 607 93 19 57 2.44 264 202 363 32 21 .260 .389 .321 .710
POS AVERAGE 2364 317 629 99 21 70 2.96 292 215 402 44 22 .266 .414 .329 .743

As a AL Player

TOMMY HARPER


AMERICAN LEAGUE

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1968 Indians 27 130 235 26 51 15 2 6 2.55 26 26 56 11 7 .217 .374 .295 .670
1969 Pilots 28 148 537 78 126 10 2 9 1.68 41 95 90 73 18 .235 .311 .349 .660
1970 Brewers 29 154 604 104 179 35 4 31 5.13 82 77 107 38 16 .296 .522 .377 .899
1971 Brewers 30 152 585 79 151 26 3 14 2.39 52 65 92 25 3 .258 .385 .333 .717
1972 Red Sox 31 144 556 92 141 29 2 14 2.52 49 67 104 25 7 .254 .388 .341 .730
1973 Red Sox 32 147 566 92 159 23 3 17 3.00 71 61 93 54 14 .281 .422 .351 .774
1974 Red Sox 33 118 443 66 105 15 3 5 1.13 24 46 65 28 12 .237 .318 .312 .630
1975 Angels 34 89 285 40 68 10 1 3 1.05 31 38 51 19 8 .239 .312 .329 .642
A's 34 34 69 11 22 4 0 2 2.90 7 5 9 7 0 .319 .464 .373 .837
TOTALS 123 354 51 90 14 1 5 1.41 38 43 60 26 8 .254 .342 .337 .679
1976 Orioles 35 46 77 8 18 5 0 1 1.30 7 10 16 4 3 .234 .338 .318 .656
TOTALS 1162 3957 596 1020 172 20 102 2.58 390 490 683 284 88 .258 .389 .341 .730
LG AVERAGE 3936 475 1002 153 24 93 2.36 444 401 582 64 39 .254 .376 .325 .701
POS AVERAGE 3957 499 1023 155 24 108 2.74 474 418 596 80 46 .258 .392 .331 .723

Everytime I read stats from '65, its eerie similar to '99.

Then there's a big trade involving a superstar for fair to middlin personnel.

While the drop from '99 to '00 wasn't as drastic as '65 was to '66, the career years for the Harpers, Johnsons, Ellises, et. al. could have been an argument that might have stunted the growth of the Machine as we know it.

[Team Clark]

Wagner was rushed to be sure, but his attitude upon going back to the minors could have been his biggest problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the word that he was just plain uncoachable after he got a taste of the major leagues and then went back down the following spring? If that's the case, then it has nothing to do with the fact that he never got a chance to develop, but rather he didn't believe he needed to.

I was posting in jest. Wagner indeed was a bad egg. I've posted as such in the past. A lot of his problems could have been cured early on with much better coaching and clear expectations. That's the way it goes sometimes. Win some lose some more. :laugh:

[Yachtzee]

Frank Robinson :p:

On a sadder note, Dernell Stenson, may he RIP :(

Stenson...still makes me heartsick just thinking about that. :(

[Yachtzee]

I was posting in jest. Wagner indeed was a bad egg. I've posted as such in the past. A lot of his problems could have been cured early on with much better coaching and clear expectations. That's the way it goes sometimes. Win some lose some more. :laugh:

Hey TC, are you still employed with the team formerly known as the D-Rays this year?

[OldRed1966]

I don't think you can put B J Ryan on the list. The Reds really hated to give him up, but they were making a run at the playoffs, and the Orioles insisted on Ryan in the Guzman deal.

[StillFunkyB]

Stan Jefferson was the first to come to mind, and more recently I would put my vote on Ryan Wagner.

Chad Mottola anyone?

[RedsBaron]

My second and third choices of Reds who were never allowed to develop, at least while they were with the Reds, are Mike Cuellar and Claude Osteen. My first pick is Christy Mathewson.
The Reds didn't allow Curt Flood to stay and devlop, either, and gave away Hal McRae way too early.

[TOBTTReds]

Ask in a couple years, and the answer might be Chris Denorfia.

I talked to Brady Clark about this a while ago, and mentioned that I felt the Reds never gave him a chance. He was very grateful and you could almost tell he felt a bit slighted by them. He later sent me a small gift of gratitude showing his appreciation for what I had to say. And I wasn't even sucking up.

[camisadelgolf]

I'll go with Joe Nuxhall.

[Big Klu]

Stan Jefferson was the first to come to mind, and more recently I would put my vote on Ryan Wagner.

Chad Mottola anyone?

Do you mean Stan Jefferson, or Reggie Jefferson?

[camisadelgolf]

Well, he was given only 19 at-bats in '91. That's hardly enough to prove yourself. ;)

[jmcclain19]

(just kidding about Brandon Larson)

Why?

Larson got less than 300PA spread out over four seasons as a Red after being handed a big league job to show what he can do. That's barely half a season's worth of ABs spread out into small chunks. Not exactly a fair shake.

[Redleg39]

I say Felipe Lopez

[westofyou]

I'll go with Joe Nuxhall.

6th on the Reds all time in innings pitched, I'd say he got a chance.

[camisadelgolf]

Why?

Larson got less than 300PA spread out over four seasons as a Red after being handed a big league job to show what he can do. That's barely half a season's worth of ABs spread out into small chunks. Not exactly a fair shake.

That's a fair take. Granted, I'm not a Major League scout, but after watching his final at-bats with the Reds while he was 28 years old, it was apparent to me that he had no place on a Major League roster. He looked completely lost at the plate, and his defense was unimpressive. On top of that, he had had over 2,000 Minor League at-bats to develop, and the weaknesses that were keeping him down were never improved enough to make him worthy of a full-time roster spot on the Reds.

(And I'm nit-picking here, but he did have a little over 300 PA.)

[bucksfan2]

In my mind it was Larson and Konerko. Both were playing behind fan favorites in Boone and Casey. While Larson never panned out he was given basically a one month look, when he didn't perform Boone pulled him and set his son back at his natural position. The reds valued Casey for much more than he was worth and let a guy like Konerko go.

The reds past organizations have been very loyal to its fan favorites and willing to ship away the ones that are not.

[DoogMinAmo]

without a doubt Brian Reith, the poor kid had no business being up.

[jnwohio]

In my mind it was Larson and Konerko. Both were playing behind fan favorites in Boone and Casey. While Larson never panned out he was given basically a one month look, when he didn't perform Boone pulled him and set his son back at his natural position. The reds valued Casey for much more than he was worth and let a guy like Konerko go.

The reds past organizations have been very loyal to its fan favorites and willing to ship away the ones that are not.


Exactly what I was thinking as I read down the thread. My feeling was Bob BooneDog was always just looking for an excuse to get Aaron back on 3rd. I'll go so far as to grant BB that I believe he honestly believed Aaron's glove at 3rd would make a big positive difference for the team but I think he was misguided in his belief when weighed against what Larson might have done for the team over several years if he wasn't having to look over his shoulder all the time.

We don't know what Larson might have done had he been moved to 1st where defense would not (presumably) have been on his mind all the time. It would have been huge risk to trade Casey to open 1st for Larson but in the past they had traded Lee May to make a spot for Tony Perez who just couldn't quite cut it at 3rd; and a generation later they sent Tony away after Danny Driessen was a flop at 3rd and in the OF (and it wasn't that Danny did not play well at 1st for several seasons, they just under estimated Tony's overall contibution to the team's performance).

The way Larson dominated AAA not just once but for 2 or 3 season's it is hard to believe that put in the line up and left alone, he would not have come around at some point. I think the way the Reds handled him went a long way toward making him a head case by the 2nd time around with them.

[captainmorgan07]

dernell stenson is my choise tragic what happened to him who knows how much potential the young man could of had would have definately been a log jam in the outfield but it woulda been nice to see how he coulda developed

[Dunner44]

Brett Tomko and Mike Cameron... would they have helped the Reds more than two decent seasons out of Griffey?

[RedEye]

Rey Olmedo

I never once got evidence that he was worse than Royce Clayton.

[geniusMoment]

Mike Frank
Gabe Gibralter
"Sweet" Stan Lane
Chris Reitsma (as a starter)

[RedEye]

Rolando Roomes

I swear that guy had 5-tool talent. I swear it.

[RedEye]

Kurt Stillwell

Larkin was better, but I always thought he could have been something.

[mth123]

Rey Olmedo

I never once got evidence that he was worse than Royce Clayton.

I'll second that. I'm not sure he is my top choice ever, but the above statement is surely true.

[texasdave]

Mike Frank




And who can ever forget when on June 21st, 1998 the Reds trotted out their "Young Frank n Stynes" outfield? (Dmitri Young-Mike Frank-Chris Stynes). :beerme:

[Redlegs]

Kind of ironic how the Reds find themselves searching for a closer year after year while Trevor Hoffman compiles a HOF career and B.J. Ryan is among the top closers in the game today.

[Redlegs]

I guess you could make an argument for Ray Knight. Bring him up to take over for Pete in '79 and trade him for a washed up Cesar Cedeno in '82 or '83. Terrible trade, IMO.

[George Anderson]

Kind of ironic how the Reds find themselves searching for a closer year after year while Trevor Hoffman compiles a HOF career and B.J. Ryan is among the top closers in the game today.

Whats more nauseating is Hoffman's minor league career was almost over till the Reds converted him from a struggling minor league infielder to a pitcher. The Reds did both Hoffman and the Padres a huge favor and got nothing out of it.

[edabbs44]

Hoping Deno doesn't end up on this list...

[4256 Hits]

Jack Armstrong!

[redsupport]

Pat Osburn was the greatest

[lollipopcurve]

Brad Gulden would have flowered under a better baserunning coach

[Handofdeath]

Roberto Kelly. To trade him for a part time player in Deion Sanders was ridiculous. Kelly was a decent OF who had speed and some pop. Just a ridiculous trade.

[dfs]

A bunch of the guys mentioned here actually got decent chances from the reds or the reds did a reasonable job of recognizing what they had and chose to deal the player.

Chris Reitsma belongs. What in the world Bob Boone was thinking, I have no idea. You have a young pitcher who takes 21 starts and puts up an ERA+ of 121 and then yank him around into different roles and trade him for nothing. The whole time you are doing this, your franchise is in desperate need of starting pitching and whining about how expensive it is. That was just criminal. I don't think Reitsma was likely to become any kind of star, but he certainly could have been a league average starting pitcher and Boone just destroyed any hope of that.

[Yachtzee]

And who can ever forget when on June 21st, 1998 the Reds trotted out their "Young Frank n Stynes" outfield? (Dmitri Young-Mike Frank-Chris Stynes). :beerme:

It's pronounced "Young, Frank, and STEENES." ;)