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Redlegs
02-18-2007, 11:49 AM
The golden tones of the hall of famer regarding Adam Dunn:

"I'm tired of hearing people say he'll give you forty homers and drive in a hundred runs every year. First of all, he didn't drive in 100 runs last year. The most overrated stat in baseball is the damn home run. Give me a guy that'll run to his position and run off the field. More often than not, he walks to his position and walks off the field. Give me a guy that shows some life out there. His approach to hitting is the same if the count is 0-0 or 3-2. We all know his knowledge of the strike zone because he walks over a hundred times a year."

dougdirt
02-18-2007, 11:52 AM
I assume you heard that on the radio about 15 minutes ago right? I am about 95% sure th angry guys were just replaying an old sound clip.

Redlegs
02-18-2007, 11:56 AM
You are correct in your assumption. I'm pretty sure they said it was from Friday night sports talk, though.

dougdirt
02-18-2007, 12:10 PM
Once they started talking about batting Dunn 6th and or 9th, I turned it off the second I got out of the shower. Look, I dont like Dunn a whole lot as a player. He frustrates me more than any player I have ever seen. His batting average drives me insane. That said, his on base percentage is way to good to be hitting him 6th or 9th. In all honestly, bat him 3rd, let Edwin hit behind him, then have Griffey behind Edwin. I think that everyone benefits from that line up.

kbrake
02-18-2007, 12:18 PM
The other night in the chat during the HSL show the subject of Marty got brought up and I said that I didnt care for him anymore. I said that I thouught he just comes off as a grumpy bitter old man. This is exactly what I was talking about. How someone has watched baseball for as long as Marty has and has such little understanding for the value of a guy like Adam Dunn is unbelievable. And I'm afraid this is just going to worse with Marty as time goes on, its becoming quite sad.

jmac
02-18-2007, 12:21 PM
That said, his on base percentage is way to good to be hitting him 6th or 9th. In all honestly, bat him 3rd, let Edwin hit behind him, then have Griffey behind Edwin. I think that everyone benefits from that line up.

First....I agree exactly with your 3-5 in the order.
Then as for Marty.....What irks me about him is he does this all the time towards Dunn then after the first bigggg homer from Dunn...he will say emphatically "Well.......how about Adam Dunn " !!!!!

westofyou
02-18-2007, 12:22 PM
As the years go by I'm finding that Marty's more likely to talk intelligently about college basketball and tomato's then players who don't have batting average driven games.

OnBaseMachine
02-18-2007, 12:28 PM
Marty do us all a favor and just retire.

Seriously, you would rather have players that sprint to their position in place of great players?

kbrake
02-18-2007, 12:30 PM
Seriously, you would rather have players that sprint to their position in place of great players?

What you dont see his logic?

dougdirt
02-18-2007, 12:41 PM
Marty do us all a favor and just retire.

Seriously, you would rather have players that sprint to their position in place of great players?

OBM, we usually agree on some things..... but Adam Dunn is not a great player. He is a good one, but great? Hardly.

I agree that the fact that Marty would rather someone sprint to and from their position is a little silly and has no outcome on the game or the players performance though.

creek14
02-18-2007, 12:47 PM
There are few people on the face of the earth who watch Adam Dunn as closely as I do. (sad, I know).

I have never seen him walk to or from his position. He doesn't sprint, I'll give you that, but he does jog.

I think Marty just has a Napoleon Complex when it comes to Dunn.

Redlegs
02-18-2007, 12:51 PM
I think Adam Dunn frustrates Marty more than any other player he's ever seen during his 30+ years with the Reds. Lenny Harris used to, but Dunn is on another level.

As far as the batting order, I don't know where you put him. I always thought your best pure hitter goes in the 3 spot. I don't think Griffey or Dunn makes enough contact for that spot in the lineup. The way this club strikes out, though, I don't know who should be there.

OnBaseMachine
02-18-2007, 12:53 PM
OBM, we usually agree on some things..... but Adam Dunn is not a great player. He is a good one, but great? Hardly.

I agree that the fact that Marty would rather someone sprint to and from their position is a little silly and has no outcome on the game or the players performance though.

At one point last season, Dunn was one of about 25-30 current players with career OPS's over .900. He is no longer part of that group after having an awful September, but to answer your question...yes, I do consider Dunn a great hitter.

LoganBuck
02-18-2007, 12:55 PM
I believe I once saw Adam Dunn mosey out to his position.

dougdirt
02-18-2007, 12:56 PM
Great hitter is a lot different than great player though....

jojo
02-18-2007, 12:58 PM
"I'm tired of hearing people say he'll give you forty homers and drive in a hundred runs every year. First of all, he didn't drive in 100 runs last year. The most overrated stat in baseball is the damn home run.

OK Marty, I'm with you so far in so much as counting stats are often very misleading....


Give me a guy that'll run to his position and run off the field. More often than not, he walks to his position and walks off the field. Give me a guy that shows some life out there.

Ok now you've lost me Marty. In fact, it's going to be hard for me to ever really take you seriously when you say things like this. Basically HRs and RBIs are too flawed for you in light of superior ones that more directly measure a player's contrinution to wins like HTAFP (hustle to and from position)... :eek:

westofyou
02-18-2007, 01:02 PM
I think Adam Dunn frustrates Marty more than any other player he's ever seen during his 30+ years with the Reds. Lenny Harris used to, but Dunn is on another level.

Willie Greene, Chris Sabo, Eric Davis (Time #1) all have felt Marty's tongue lashing, Greene was beaten by Marty daily in the late 90's.

Let's add others like Showalter and LaRussa to the list too, and the league even stepped in to tell him to dial it back a notch concerning Dave Pallone 20 years ago. This is hardly new stuff fro Marty.

Here we are 2 weeks from March and Marty is marketing Reds baseball.

Yippee!!!

Reds Fever.... loath it and deride it.

pedro
02-18-2007, 01:05 PM
:barf:

KronoRed
02-18-2007, 01:14 PM
If Dunn goes I see EE being next on the hit list.

mth123
02-18-2007, 01:21 PM
Marty has been around baseball a long time and I'm sure he has gained some knowledge of the game, but for the last 15 years or so, Marty has seemed to enjoy drawing attention to himself quite a bit. When you make your living on the radio, outrageous overstatements are probably the best way to garner that attention. Marty probably has a lot of knowledge hiding under there, but given his constant demand for attention pretty much everything he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

He stopped being a credible source of baseball knowledge a long time ago IMO. Its too hard to sort the real nuggets of information from the BS anymore. I enjoy his play by play and listen for news coming out of the front office and the like but I rally tune the other stuff out.

Bigredfan#1
02-18-2007, 01:36 PM
How many players sprint or run to their position? I really don't recall that many who do run to their position, there is no emergency to get there. You use up energy that you might need for later in the game, but when I played high school ball I don't ever remember being encouraged by a coach to run or sprint to my position, nor do I ever remember seeing a team mate or an oppontent do so.

Having said that I think Marty want to see some fire out of Dunn, it would be nice but Dunn is Dunn, he is not Pete Rose!!

Dom Heffner
02-18-2007, 01:41 PM
On miracle Friday, I'll bet Marty would have rather seen Adam Dunn hit a hard ground ball to the shortstop and hustle his gritty butt down the line for a game ending play than hit that ball out of the park. Homeruns are overrated, you know.

His call would have been just as exciting: "And Dunns grounds hard to short, but look at him run! Look at him run! Wow, that ended the game but what hustle. What terrific hustle to end the game!"

fearofpopvol1
02-18-2007, 01:42 PM
How many times is this going to get brought up? Marty is extra critical of Adam Dunn. Cool. Let's move on.

Dom Heffner
02-18-2007, 01:43 PM
How many times is this going to get brought up? Marty is extra critical of Adam Dunn. Cool. Let's move on.

I could have swore I saw some other threads around. No this is the only one...

Yachtzee
02-18-2007, 01:47 PM
When was the last time anyone saw Marty hustle to and from the broadcasting booth? Or, more appropriate for his position, when was the last time Marty actually did some leg work and turned up some tidbit of information that gave one a new perspective on the game they were listening to?

Dom Heffner
02-18-2007, 01:48 PM
When was the last time anyone saw Marty hustle to and from the broadcasting booth? Or, more appropriate for his position, when was the last time Marty actually did some leg work and turned up some tidbit of information that gave one a new perspective on the game they were listening to?

How dare you aim such a wonderful point at a hall of famer?

redsfanfalcon
02-18-2007, 01:49 PM
At one point last season, Dunn was one of about 25-30 current players with career OPS's over .900. He is no longer part of that group after having an awful September, but to answer your question...yes, I do consider Dunn a great hitter.

How can great hitters strike out 180+ times a year? I think Marty's frustration is a way of saying, "I wish Dunn would cut down his swing and make contact instead of striking out so much. What's the difference if he hits the ball 460 feet instead of 410? Cut down your swing, raise the average, you'll hit more home runs and have more RBI's." That is when you could say Adam Dunn is a great hitter. Marty just has a way of being bitter and telling it as he sees it. I guess that is why I still enjoy listening to him.

All that being said, I still go to the park to watch Dunn.

membengal
02-18-2007, 01:52 PM
How many times is this going to get brought up? Marty is extra critical of Adam Dunn. Cool. Let's move on.

Maybe if the amazingly bitter old man would, we all could. As it is, if he keeps tossing around this kind of maliciousness, I would expect people here will be commenting on it.

redsfanmia
02-18-2007, 01:54 PM
Dunn is a very frustrating player and Marty has to watch him every day. I dont think its right for Lord Marty to continually him out. How many other players are on Marty's list? Griffey, EE, Milton and a list of others. I personally feel that Marty is the hardest on Latino players but that JMO.

Dom Heffner
02-18-2007, 01:54 PM
How can great hitters strike out 180+ times a year?

I was just thinking that myself as I pondered the awfulness of Ryan Howard.

Maybe if Dunn struck out 40 times less and then added 20 more ground outs and 20 more fly outs, we'd all feel better.

You have to spread those outs around. Even things out. That is what makes a great hitter.

reds44
02-18-2007, 01:59 PM
The golden tones of the hall of famer regarding Adam Dunn:

"I'm tired of hearing people say he'll give you forty homers and drive in a hundred runs every year. First of all, he didn't drive in 100 runs last year. The most overrated stat in baseball is the damn home run. Give me a guy that'll run to his position and run off the field. More often than not, he walks to his position and walks off the field. Give me a guy that shows some life out there. His approach to hitting is the same if the count is 0-0 or 3-2. We all know his knowledge of the strike zone because he walks over a hundred times a year."
WHY DOES THAT MATTER? WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE TYPE OF PLAYER HE IS OR HOW HE PRODUCES?

"The most overrated player in baseball is the damn scrappy one."

Dom Heffner
02-18-2007, 02:03 PM
WHY DOES THAT MATTER? WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE TYPE OF PLAYER HE IS OR HOW HE PRODUCES?

I think this comes from the Pete Rose era, I really do. It comes from the false notion that Pete Rose was an average baseball player that hit a bunch of balls that would have been outs had he not run really hard to his position between innings and slid head first into third.

Yep, Rose was just awful. He was only good because he showed life out there.

You'd almost think Rose had 4,256 infield singles to listen to these old-timers.

George Anderson
02-18-2007, 02:04 PM
While I share alot of the criticisms the rest of you do about Marty. At least he isnt trying to say players names backwards or announcing that Lou and Ethel Mc Guinness from Peoria, Illinois are at the game today.:rolleyes:

pedro
02-18-2007, 02:07 PM
While I share alot of the criticisms the rest of you do about Marty. At least he isnt trying to say players names backwards or announcing that Lou and Ethel Mc Guinness from Peoria, Illinois are at the game today.:rolleyes:

and his name spelled backwards is visad cire

http://www.powermaxconsulting.com/harry_caray_sings.jpg

roby
02-18-2007, 02:14 PM
Willie Greene, Chris Sabo, Eric Davis (Time #1) all have felt Marty's tongue lashing, Greene was beaten by Marty daily in the late 90's.

Let's add others like Showalter and LaRussa to the list too, and the league even stepped in to tell him to dial it back a notch concerning Dave Pallone 20 years ago. This is hardly new stuff fro Marty.

Here we are 2 weeks from March and Marty is marketing Reds baseball.

Yippee!!!

Reds Fever.... loath it and deride it.

Dave Pallone deserved every bit of Marty's wrath...and a lot more.

deltachi8
02-18-2007, 02:24 PM
I think i once notice Adam amble out to LF...

Dom Heffner
02-18-2007, 02:26 PM
While I share alot of the criticisms the rest of you do about Marty. At least he isnt trying to say players names backwards or announcing that Lou and Ethel Mc Guinness from Peoria, Illinois are at the game today.


Marty has his banana phone and other idosyncracies. The fact that harry Carey stunk doesn't make me feel better about Marty. :)

Sportscasters in general have started to make sports less enjoyable for me.

Someone like Joe Morgan is a prime example.

Caller #1: Joe, what do you think about Jonathon Papelbon?

Morgan: Well, I haven't gotten a chance to see him play, really, so I don't want to offer an opinion on him.

Caller #2; What do you think of Ryan Theriot?

Morgan: I don't get too see him play much, so I don't want to say anything.

Well, gee, Joe, I've never seen these guys play in person, either, but I have this thing called the internet and newspapers and I can tell you about them and I only work for a living.

Morgan, like Marty, thinks we get too caught up in numbers to analyze these players. I'm not sure what else there is to look at, but it must involve watching them every day while holding a stop watch to see how quickly they walk out to their position.

Yachtzee
02-18-2007, 02:26 PM
While I share alot of the criticisms the rest of you do about Marty. At least he isnt trying to say players names backwards or announcing that Lou and Ethel Mc Guinness from Peoria, Illinois are at the game today.:rolleyes:

I actually found the whole "name backwards" thing kind of endearing. Of course, I'm a big dork who did stuff like that with my friends. By the way, my name backwards is "Eezthcay." :)

Dom Heffner
02-18-2007, 02:31 PM
I never heard Carey do that until one day he said out of freaking nowhere, "You know, Sosa spelled backwards is "A-sose."

I'll agree with Yachtzee and say it was endearing. Or, at least it wasn't bitter and uniformed.

George Anderson
02-18-2007, 02:59 PM
I actually found the whole "name backwards" thing kind of endearing. Of course, I'm a big dork who did stuff like that with my friends. By the way, my name backwards is "Eezthcay." :)

Its fun to listen to know and again, but day in and day out I thought it got old.

paintmered
02-18-2007, 03:08 PM
"I'm tired of hearing people say he'll give you forty homers and drive in a hundred runs every year. First of all, he didn't drive in 100 runs last year. The most overrated stat in baseball is the damn home run. Give me a guy that'll run to his position and run off the field. More often than not, he walks to his position and walks off the field. Give me a guy that shows some life out there. His approach to hitting is the same if the count is 0-0 or 3-2. We all know his knowledge of the strike zone because he walks over a hundred times a year."

Marketing 101.

Caveat Emperor
02-18-2007, 03:11 PM
I think this comes from the Pete Rose era, I really do. It comes from the false notion that Pete Rose was an average baseball player that hit a bunch of balls that would have been outs had he not run really hard to his position between innings and slid head first into third.


There's also a bit of baseball urban legend that goes towards the idea of "if a hitter is in a slump, he needs to hustle extra hard to try and turn a groundout into a single, which will break the slump."

I see a lot of that with fans reactions towards Adam Dunn. He's perceived as slumping when he strikes out a lot, so every fan immediately reverts back to a 7 year old being screamed at by their hypercompetitive little league coach and being told to "hustle up" down the line.

redsfanfalcon
02-18-2007, 03:19 PM
I was just thinking that myself as I pondered the awfulness of Ryan Howard.

Maybe if Dunn struck out 40 times less and then added 20 more ground outs and 20 more fly outs, we'd all feel better.

You have to spread those outs around. Even things out. That is what makes a great hitter.

Ryan Howard also hit .313. Those ground outs might get a runner over, and those flyouts might get a guy in from third.

macro
02-18-2007, 03:34 PM
Man, this thread is a whole lot like this one (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54282&highlight=marty+dunn).

jojo
02-18-2007, 03:41 PM
I was just thinking that myself as I pondered the awfulness of Ryan Howard.

It's about time people start calling out Howard.... why with the 181 ks from last year he's basically just taking that league minimum ($355K last season)...

:beerme:

jojo
02-18-2007, 03:44 PM
Marty has his banana phone and other idosyncracies. The fact that harry Carey stunk doesn't make me feel better about Marty. :)

Sportscasters in general have started to make sports less enjoyable for me.

Someone like Joe Morgan is a prime example.

Caller #1: Joe, what do you think about Jonathon Papelbon?

Morgan: Well, I haven't gotten a chance to see him play, really, so I don't want to offer an opinion on him.

Caller #2; What do you think of Ryan Theriot?

Morgan: I don't get too see him play much, so I don't want to say anything.

Well, gee, Joe, I've never seen these guys play in person, either, but I have this thing called the internet and newspapers and I can tell you about them and I only work for a living.

Morgan, like Marty, thinks we get too caught up in numbers to analyze these players. I'm not sure what else there is to look at, but it must involve watching them every day while holding a stop watch to see how quickly they walk out to their position.


Lets face it, sporting events in general are just one long commercial under the guise of a game...I'm just thankful that baseball isn't quite as bad as football in that regard...yet anyway....

Yachtzee
02-18-2007, 03:45 PM
It's about time people start calling out Howard.... why with the 181 ks from last year he's basically just taking that league minimum ($355K last season)...

:beerme:

Lollygagger!

paintmered
02-18-2007, 03:52 PM
Lets face it, sporting events in general are just one long commercial under the guise of a game...I'm just thankful that baseball isn't quite as bad as football in that regard...yet anyway....

Not that MLB hasn't tried. If they had their way, we would have seen Spiderman bases. Fortunately, the outcry made them think otherwise.

Highlifeman21
02-18-2007, 04:05 PM
Ryan Howard also hit .313. Those ground outs might get a runner over, and those flyouts might get a guy in from third.

Ryan Howard also hits in a much better lineup than Adam Dunn and has more protection. Dunn realistically is the only feared hitter in the Reds lineup. The Phillies have Howard, Burrell, Utley, and last year even had some Abreu, and some Dellucci.

The other reason Ryan Howard also hits for higher average is that he hits well to all fields. Dunn is predominantly a pull hiter, and gets that vicious shift. Teams don't use that IF shift for Ryan Howard.

Rocket_Fuel
02-18-2007, 04:06 PM
The golden tones of the hall of famer regarding Adam Dunn:

"I'm tired of hearing people say he'll give you forty homers and drive in a hundred runs every year. First of all, he didn't drive in 100 runs last year. The most overrated stat in baseball is the damn home run. Give me a guy that'll run to his position and run off the field. More often than not, he walks to his position and walks off the field. Give me a guy that shows some life out there. His approach to hitting is the same if the count is 0-0 or 3-2. We all know his knowledge of the strike zone because he walks over a hundred times a year."

I don't consider it a slam since he's saying what I'm thinking.

Yachtzee
02-18-2007, 04:09 PM
I don't consider it a slam since he's saying what I'm thinking.

You would choose hustling to and from one's position, which is entirely irrelevant to scoring runs, to home runs, which are actual run scoring events?

OnBaseMachine
02-18-2007, 04:12 PM
How can great hitters strike out 180+ times a year? I think Marty's frustration is a way of saying, "I wish Dunn would cut down his swing and make contact instead of striking out so much. What's the difference if he hits the ball 460 feet instead of 410? Cut down your swing, raise the average, you'll hit more home runs and have more RBI's." That is when you could say Adam Dunn is a great hitter. Marty just has a way of being bitter and telling it as he sees it. I guess that is why I still enjoy listening to him.

All that being said, I still go to the park to watch Dunn.

Ryan Howard struckout over 180 times last year. Jim Thome has too. Mike Schmidt also. Do you consider them great hitters? Now I know Dunn didn't have a great season last year (second half killed him) but he is still normally a great hitter. Guys who consistently hit 40+ homeruns and get on base at a .380 clip are great hitters in my mind, regardless how many times they strikeout.

RedFanAlways1966
02-18-2007, 04:12 PM
Adam Dunn strikesout too much? Hmmmm.

Top 10 career MLB strikeout leaders
>> 4 are in the Hall of Fame (Reggie Jax, Stargell, Schmidt & Tony Perez).
>> 4 are not yet eligible for the Hall of Fame (Sosa, Galarraga, McGriff & Thome).
>> 2 will probably never make it (Kingman & Canseco).
* The 4 that are in the Hall of Fame had OBPs of (Dunn .380 career):
>> Reggie = .356, Stargell = .360, Schmidt = .380, Perez = .341.

Top 20 career MLB strikeout leaders
>> 8 are in the Hall of Fame (Brock, Killebrew, Mantle, Winfield).
>> 5 are not yet eligible for the Hall of Fame (Rickey Henderson)
>> 7 will probably never make it (Bo. Bonds, Dale Murphy, Chili Davis, Dwight Evans, Gaetti).
* Only 1 of the 8 H-of-F members has a higher OBP than Dunn (Mantle = .421).

kbrake
02-18-2007, 04:13 PM
I don't consider it a slam since he's saying what I'm thinking.

Good since you and Marty have similiar views on this maybe you can help out. How does hustling to LF between innings impact Dunn as a player?

Wonder why Marty never points out that the lazy one has missed 5 games the past 3 seasons. 5 freaking games over 3 years. I'm going to pull my hair out if we have to keep going over this all the time.

westofyou
02-18-2007, 04:20 PM
I don't consider it a slam since he's saying what I'm thinking.

The sound of nothing is stunning isn't it?

dougdirt
02-18-2007, 04:22 PM
Good since you and Marty have similiar views on this maybe you can help out. How does hustling to LF between innings impact Dunn as a player?

Wonder why Marty never points out that the lazy one has missed 5 games the past 3 seasons. 5 freaking games over 3 years. I'm going to pull my hair out if we have to keep going over this all the time.

Shave your head so you dont have the option, because it will be brought up 100 more times this season.

Yachtzee
02-18-2007, 04:24 PM
Shave your head so you dont have the option, because it will be brought up 100 more times this season.

How many games are there in a season, including Spring Training?

Redlegs
02-18-2007, 04:34 PM
How many players sprint or run to their position? I really don't recall that many who do run to their position, there is no emergency to get there. You use up energy that you might need for later in the game, but when I played high school ball I don't ever remember being encouraged by a coach to run or sprint to my position, nor do I ever remember seeing a team mate or an oppontent do so.
First things first, I don't think any player is expected to sprint to their position. It would be nice to see a player jog to his position. I don't know if Adam Dunn walks to his position or not, but I don't think your statement holds water. While there may not be an emergency anywhere, it falls under the old school rule of having "respect for the game". If a player actually walked from the dugout to left field on a regular basis, or even if a player jog to the pitcher's mound or infield and began walking the rest of the way, I would have a problem with that as a fan. These guys are making millions of dollars so a 300 ft. jog to your outfield position 9 times per day isn't asking a lot.

As far as using up energy that may be needed later in the game, I have to ask if you are serious. So, without further adeau, are you serious? If a player is so out of shape that jogging to his position wears him out then perhaps he should care enough to get extensive cardio training. I would think the rest he gets in the dugout when his team's at bat would be more than enough to regain strength.

Finally, if your coach didn't encourage you to "hustle out there", I would think he wasn't much of a coach. Winning is, indeed, an attitude.

Yachtzee
02-18-2007, 04:55 PM
First things first, I don't think any player is expected to sprint to their position. It would be nice to see a player jog to his position. I don't know if Adam Dunn walks to his position or not, but I don't think your statement holds water. While there may not be an emergency anywhere, it falls under the old school rule of having "respect for the game". If a player actually walked from the dugout to left field on a regular basis, or even if a player jog to the pitcher's mound or infield and began walking the rest of the way, I would have a problem with that as a fan. These guys are making millions of dollars so a 300 ft. jog to your outfield position 9 times per day isn't asking a lot.

As far as using up energy that may be needed later in the game, I have to ask if you are serious. So, without further adeau, are you serious? If a player is so out of shape that jogging to his position wears him out then perhaps he should care enough to get extensive cardio training. I would think the rest he gets in the dugout when his team's at bat would be more than enough to regain strength.

Finally, if your coach didn't encourage you to "hustle out there", I would think he wasn't much of a coach. Winning is, indeed, an attitude.

Actually, I think the whole notion of "hustling" to one's position really only dates back so far. Remember, when Pete Rose got the name "Charlie Hustle," I recall hearing that it was a derogatory comment from Whitey Ford and Mickey Mantle.

I've seen a few minor league games in my time as a baseball fan and the minors are filled with "hustle," way more hustle than you see in the majors. Guys hustle to their positions and hustle back in. They hustle down to first base when they get a walk and hustle back in when they get thrown out at second. But that "hustle" doesn't necessarily win ballgames and for most of these guys, it doesn't get them to the big leagues. Scoring runs does that. Guys can hustle all they want, but they aren't going to score runs if they don't get on base, avoid making outs and get across home plate.

vaticanplum
02-18-2007, 04:58 PM
I really want Adam Dunn to do tour jetes out to left field on Opening Day. Seriously.

OnBaseMachine
02-18-2007, 05:01 PM
I want to see Dunn borrow the groundscrew workers golf cart and ride it out to left field on Opening Day.

jmac
02-18-2007, 05:01 PM
I really want Adam Dunn to do tour jetes out to left field on Opening Day. Seriously.

Or how about some Ozzie Smith backflips ?

redsfanfalcon
02-18-2007, 05:06 PM
Ryan Howard also hits in a much better lineup than Adam Dunn and has more protection. Dunn realistically is the only feared hitter in the Reds lineup. The Phillies have Howard, Burrell, Utley, and last year even had some Abreu, and some Dellucci.

The other reason Ryan Howard also hits for higher average is that he hits well to all fields. Dunn is predominantly a pull hiter, and gets that vicious shift. Teams don't use that IF shift for Ryan Howard.

Great point...good post...wish I could give you rep points for that one, but you already have plenty!

Razor Shines
02-18-2007, 05:20 PM
On miracle Friday, I'll bet Marty would have rather seen Adam Dunn hit a hard ground ball to the shortstop and hustle his gritty butt down the line for a game ending play than hit that ball out of the park. Homeruns are overrated, you know.

His call would have been just as exciting: "And Dunns grounds hard to short, but look at him run! Look at him run! Wow, that ended the game but what hustle. What terrific hustle to end the game!"

I wonder if that call would have been replayed over and over for the next few weeks. People probably would have called in to hear the "Dunn Hustle Down the Line" call again.

Degenerate39
02-18-2007, 05:21 PM
Why does it matter if he walks to the outfield? Is that stopping him from winning the Reds the game? No.

Highlifeman21
02-18-2007, 05:25 PM
First things first, I don't think any player is expected to sprint to their position. It would be nice to see a player jog to his position. I don't know if Adam Dunn walks to his position or not, but I don't think your statement holds water. While there may not be an emergency anywhere, it falls under the old school rule of having "respect for the game". If a player actually walked from the dugout to left field on a regular basis, or even if a player jog to the pitcher's mound or infield and began walking the rest of the way, I would have a problem with that as a fan. These guys are making millions of dollars so a 300 ft. jog to your outfield position 9 times per day isn't asking a lot.

As far as using up energy that may be needed later in the game, I have to ask if you are serious. So, without further adeau, are you serious? If a player is so out of shape that jogging to his position wears him out then perhaps he should care enough to get extensive cardio training. I would think the rest he gets in the dugout when his team's at bat would be more than enough to regain strength.

Finally, if your coach didn't encourage you to "hustle out there", I would think he wasn't much of a coach. Winning is, indeed, an attitude.

I remember 3 games I attended in 2006 (2 in Philly, 1 in Cincy) where Griffey walked back to the dugout from CF and was entering the dugout just as the Reds 1/2 inning at the plate was about to begin. This is also the same Griffey, who numerous times during his tenure in Cincinnati, has not run out groundballs to 1B, a couple of which he would have been safe due to fielding miscues.

As much as people want to bash Dunn for his perceived work ethic and enthusiam for the game, I think there's a harsh double standard in place for Griffey compared to Dunn.

Redlegs
02-18-2007, 05:32 PM
I remember 3 games I attended in 2006 (2 in Philly, 1 in Cincy) where Griffey walked back to the dugout from CF and was entering the dugout just as the Reds 1/2 inning at the plate was about to begin. This is also the same Griffey, who numerous times during his tenure in Cincinnati, has not run out groundballs to 1B, a couple of which he would have been safe due to fielding miscues.

As much as people want to bash Dunn for his perceived work ethic and enthusiam for the game, I think there's a harsh double standard in place for Griffey compared to Dunn.
Absolutely agree 110% with you. The way these guys trot down the first base line is an embarrasment.

It's just another example of how money has hurt the game, IMO. Players with huge contracts know they're going nowhere. They also know they're going to play.

westofyou
02-18-2007, 05:37 PM
Absolutely agree 110% with you. The way these guys trot down the first base line is an embarrasment.

It's just another example of how money has hurt the game, IMO. Players with huge contracts know they're going nowhere. They also know they're going to play.

Every year for over a 100 years.....



Baseball today isn't what it should be.The players do not try and learn the fine points of the game like they used to, instead they are content to just get by.

In my day players went into the clubhouse after a loss with murder in their hearts. they would have thrown any guy out on his neck if they had even suspected him of having the intentions of singing.


Bill Joyce 1916


Roger Maris didn't run out grounders, he was the one who started it.

Robin Roberts


There are a "few" good players today-you can count em on the fingers of one hand. But generally they're just out there going through the motions, just playing for the money."

Joe Sewell - 1980

RedFanAlways1966
02-18-2007, 05:44 PM
I remember 3 games I attended in 2006 (2 in Philly, 1 in Cincy) where Griffey walked back to the dugout from CF and was entering the dugout just as the Reds 1/2 inning at the plate was about to begin. This is also the same Griffey, who numerous times during his tenure in Cincinnati, has not run out groundballs to 1B, a couple of which he would have been safe due to fielding miscues.

Walked? You said walked, so I guess you truly mean walked. I really wonder if you saw him walk. Maybe half-jog, but walk? I can remember numerous threads where you have taken the opportunity to rip on Griffey. Did you really see him walk or are you "running" at another chance to get a dig on Griffey? I know this thread is about Dunn, but I am not shocked to see Griffey drug through the mud here. Walked... cannot remember this myself, but I'll have to take your word for it. Lord knows some people look at the man a lot in order to drag him down.

I think the groundball (normally an out) thing has been discussed numerous times on this site. I thought it was assumed that management would rather not risk a torn muscle in the leg and is okay with this. He may not be as potent as the past at the plate, but is still one of the best bats in the REDS lineup. Unfortunately injuries have bitten him since 2001. I would assume that management is willing to miss out on those 1 out of 100 typical groundouts that turn into an error for the sake of having his bat the plate.

Wheelhouse
02-18-2007, 05:46 PM
The other night in the chat during the HSL show the subject of Marty got brought up and I said that I didnt care for him anymore. I said that I thouught he just comes off as a grumpy bitter old man. This is exactly what I was talking about. How someone has watched baseball for as long as Marty has and has such little understanding for the value of a guy like Adam Dunn is unbelievable. And I'm afraid this is just going to worse with Marty as time goes on, its becoming quite sad.

Bitter? About what? If you think how Adam Dunn performs actually effects Marty's life you have to be crazy. Marty is doing what he gets paid to do--give his opinion on baseball without mincing words. What is sad is that you guys don't realize how far and above he is the best radio guy in the game. He truly makes the game exciting; his calls are the best--and in this video driven world, for an audio broadcast to be able to be as exciting and interesting as video is a tall order. Try tuning into some other announcers and you'll see how they are either dead boring, or very annoying. I think you all should count every day as lucky that we have Marty. As far as his opinion on Dunn, I agree with him 100%, in that I do not enjoy watching Adam Dunn play the game of baseball. It's depressing to see squandered talent and it's (and this is the biggest thing) unentertaining. If you want to say he's "valuable", fine. But how valuable can a player be who plays on a team that hasn't broken .500 in five years and plays in a bandbox. A little perspective is needed here guys.

Wheelhouse
02-18-2007, 05:53 PM
Ryan Howard also hits in a much better lineup than Adam Dunn and has more protection. Dunn realistically is the only feared hitter in the Reds lineup. The Phillies have Howard, Burrell, Utley, and last year even had some Abreu, and some Dellucci.

The other reason Ryan Howard also hits for higher average is that he hits well to all fields. Dunn is predominantly a pull hiter, and gets that vicious shift. Teams don't use that IF shift for Ryan Howard.

Don't get it. Adam Dunn has played on one of the top offensive clubs in the league over the past five years. Last year was the first time in a while they played to the middle of the pack.

RANDY IN INDY
02-18-2007, 06:19 PM
Haven't I read all this before, recently?

Yachtzee
02-18-2007, 06:26 PM
Bitter? About what? If you think how Adam Dunn performs actually effects Marty's life you have to be crazy. Marty is doing what he gets paid to do--give his opinion on baseball without mincing words. What is sad is that you guys don't realize how far and above he is the best radio guy in the game. He truly makes the game exciting; his calls are the best--and in this video driven world, for an audio broadcast to be able to be as exciting and interesting as video is a tall order. Try tuning into some other announcers and you'll see how they are either dead boring, or very annoying. I think you all should count every day as lucky that we have Marty. As far as his opinion on Dunn, I agree with him 100%, in that I do not enjoy watching Adam Dunn play the game of baseball. It's depressing to see squandered talent and it's (and this is the biggest thing) unentertaining. If you want to say he's "valuable", fine. But how valuable can a player be who plays on a team that hasn't broken .500 in five years and plays in a bandbox. A little perspective is needed here guys.

Really, I think Marty, at this point in his career, and Adam Dunn are a lot alike. Dunn hits home runs. Marty makes calls on the radio that give you goose bumps. Dunn gets on base alot and scores a lot of runs. Marty has a sweet radio voice and can make the game a joy to listen to. Dunn strikes out a lot. Marty strikes out by making silly statements on the radio like saying something to the effect of "I'd rather have guys that hustle than guys that hit home runs." Dunn doesn't hustle. Marty doesn't do his research. Dunn makes defensive mistakes on routine plays. Marty misses a number of routine plays while talking about golf, tomato plants, and American Idol. Maybe Marty should work on improving his game before he starts getting on other people about theirs.

You say its depressing to watch Adam Dunn squander his talent. I say it's depressing to listen to Marty squander his.

dfs
02-18-2007, 07:13 PM
Willie Greene, Chris Sabo, Eric Davis (Time #1) all have felt Marty's tongue lashing, Greene was beaten by Marty daily in the late 90's.

I very much remember Marty riding Harris, Greene, Davis and Larkin, but Sabo? I don't remember that. I'm not sayin you're wrong, just that I don't remember it. What did he get on Sabes about?

Cedric
02-18-2007, 07:17 PM
Marty has strong opinions and he's not afraid to say them. Sounds like other baseball nuts I know or read about on certain websites.

People hate those that are as arrogant as them.

pedro
02-18-2007, 07:17 PM
I very much remember Marty riding Harris, Greene, Davis and Larkin, but Sabo? I don't remember that. I'm not sayin you're wrong, just that I don't remember it. What did he get on Sabes about?

I distinctly remember Joe Nuxhall reacting once to a play Sabo made and belting out "what a bonehead play" which struck me as both funny and odd as Joe wasn't usually that hard on players. Can't remember what it was that Sabo did though.

George Anderson
02-18-2007, 07:21 PM
I very much remember Marty riding Harris, Greene, Davis and Larkin, but Sabo? I don't remember that. I'm not sayin you're wrong, just that I don't remember it. What did he get on Sabes about?


Didnt WLW have a skit type song where they played Martys play by play criticism of Lenny Harris with the song "Nobody Does It Better" in the background??? Its been a while since I heard it but I thought it was hilarious.

Highlifeman21
02-18-2007, 07:38 PM
Walked? You said walked, so I guess you truly mean walked. I really wonder if you saw him walk. Maybe half-jog, but walk? I can remember numerous threads where you have taken the opportunity to rip on Griffey. Did you really see him walk or are you "running" at another chance to get a dig on Griffey? I know this thread is about Dunn, but I am not shocked to see Griffey drug through the mud here. Walked... cannot remember this myself, but I'll have to take your word for it. Lord knows some people look at the man a lot in order to drag him down.

I think the groundball (normally an out) thing has been discussed numerous times on this site. I thought it was assumed that management would rather not risk a torn muscle in the leg and is okay with this. He may not be as potent as the past at the plate, but is still one of the best bats in the REDS lineup. Unfortunately injuries have bitten him since 2001. I would assume that management is willing to miss out on those 1 out of 100 typical groundouts that turn into an error for the sake of having his bat the plate.

Walked.

No jog.

No trot.

All walk.

I wasn't alone at those 3 games. Mole and Cyclone went with me, and they both commented on the length of time it took him to get back to the dugout in Philly. I'm not trying to drag those two into this, but I know I'm not alone in the stance that Griffey takes every opportunity to attempt to do his body less harm if he can. If that's the case, then Griffey needs to be a DH in the AL, if he's trying to figure out ways to do less damage to his body between innings. I just find it amusing that no one really talks about other players that seemingly "loaf" here and there, but everyone loves to take shots at Dunn, the best position player on our team. Having lived in Philly since Spring of 2005, I watched that city run Bobby Abreu out of town (who was their best position player at the time) and I've watched them switch gears to try and run Pat Burrell out of town (who is arguably their 2nd best position player, but no worse than their 3rd). I don't want to see Reds fans run Adam Dunn out of town b/c his batting average falls between .230 and .270 and he only gives us 40 HR a year, and 100 RBI a year, and 100 R a year, and 100 BB a year.

I would love to know where I've taken unwarranted shots at Griffey. I thought from 1990 until 2000 Ken Griffey Jr was the end all be all in terms of baseball players for me. I've always thought he was a class act, until he brow-beat the Reds FO into signing Larkin into that ridiculous 3 year 27 Million dollar contract. I would love nothing more than to see Griffey return to be 75+% of what he used to be, but with his age and declining skill set, I think we all have to stomach what he can produce.

Do I want him off the Reds? Only if our return helps to offset his loss.
Do I want to see him play 1 inning in CF in 2007? Absolutely not.
Do I want him to see as many innings as possible when healthy in either LF, RF or 1B? You betcha.

If management is that concerned about Griffey's health, then they should do as much as they humanly can about it, and buy him a 1B's mitt, or ship him off to an AL club to be DH and get the best possible return.

redsfanmia
02-18-2007, 07:58 PM
I very much remember Marty riding Harris, Greene, Davis and Larkin, but Sabo? I don't remember that. I'm not sayin you're wrong, just that I don't remember it. What did he get on Sabes about?

Marty ripped Sabo for his awful baserunning, Sabo used to run into so many outs and Marty would call him on it. I felt he had that coming.

Chip R
02-18-2007, 08:00 PM
I think if Dunn is going to walk out to LF, the least he can do is a silly walk.

WMR
02-18-2007, 08:04 PM
Too bad announcers can't be censured.

pedro
02-18-2007, 08:48 PM
I think if Dunn is going to walk out to LF, the least he can do is a silly walk.


Even if he "walked like an egyptian" people'd probably complain that he was a terrorist.

westofyou
02-18-2007, 09:12 PM
Marty has strong opinions and he's not afraid to say them. Sounds like other baseball nuts I know or read about on certain websites.

People hate those that are as arrogant as them.

Some people just hate their announcer running down the teams players a week before Spring Training starts.

If that makes me arrogant than so be it.

BoydsOfSummer
02-18-2007, 09:12 PM
Sometimes I wish Dunn would totally try to change his game. Choke up, lay down bunts, try to go the other way and move runners over and such. That way the absurdity of that idea would become neon-bright.

C'mon Adam, do it, just to show 'em.

RedsBaron
02-18-2007, 09:18 PM
But how valuable can a player be who plays on a team that hasn't broken .500 in five years and plays in a bandbox. A little perspective is needed here guys.

How in blazes did Ernie Banks ever make the Hall of Fame, playing all those years on a Cubs team that didn't break .500 and played in Wrigley Field?

ChatterRed
02-18-2007, 09:21 PM
Adam Dunn is overrated.

Let's move on.

Falls City Beer
02-18-2007, 09:22 PM
Sometimes I wish Dunn would totally try to change his game. Choke up, lay down bunts, try to go the other way and move runners over and such. That way the absurdity of that idea would become neon-bright.

C'mon Adam, do it, just to show 'em.

I actually like that he thumbs his nose at the ham-and-eggers.

Screw 'em.

westofyou
02-18-2007, 09:23 PM
Adam Dunn is overrated.

Let's move on.

You go ahead, see if anyone follows.

redsfan1966
02-18-2007, 09:29 PM
George Anderson---yes, WLW did have such a clip (the Marty/Lenny Harris pbp clip with "Nobody does it better")--in fact Mike McConnell would play it every opening day on his show--unfortunately, the clip was lost around two years ago...

Redlegs
02-18-2007, 09:33 PM
Marty ripped Sabo for his awful baserunning, Sabo used to run into so many outs and Marty would call him on it. I felt he had that coming.
I remember Marty saying something to the tune of Sabo having a "run 'till you're out" philosophy to base running.

Redlegs
02-18-2007, 09:34 PM
Bitter? About what? If you think how Adam Dunn performs actually effects Marty's life you have to be crazy. Marty is doing what he gets paid to do--give his opinion on baseball without mincing words. What is sad is that you guys don't realize how far and above he is the best radio guy in the game. He truly makes the game exciting; his calls are the best--and in this video driven world, for an audio broadcast to be able to be as exciting and interesting as video is a tall order. Try tuning into some other announcers and you'll see how they are either dead boring, or very annoying. I think you all should count every day as lucky that we have Marty. As far as his opinion on Dunn, I agree with him 100%, in that I do not enjoy watching Adam Dunn play the game of baseball. It's depressing to see squandered talent and it's (and this is the biggest thing) unentertaining. If you want to say he's "valuable", fine. But how valuable can a player be who plays on a team that hasn't broken .500 in five years and plays in a bandbox. A little perspective is needed here guys.
Good post. I agree that Marty's the best in the game and I'm thankful he does Reds radio.

vaticanplum
02-18-2007, 09:40 PM
Again, regardless of your feelings on Adam Dunn or Marty Brennaman (both of whom I like -- no, really), if you take a step back and look at this objectively, it continues to be kind of absurd. I honestly have never ever seen a baseball announcer take on such a vocal, prolific and unabashed hatred of one particular player on his own team, or any team. Marty calls a great game and I love to listen to him for the most part. But this just makes his integrity plummet in my opinion. I would feel the same way if Eric Milton was the subject of his diatribes. Even far beyond the fact that his logic is questionable at best, it's just unprofessional.

Caveat Emperor
02-18-2007, 09:52 PM
Marty has strong opinions and he's not afraid to say them. Sounds like other baseball nuts I know or read about on certain websites.

People hate those that are as arrogant as them.

Difference is, I'm just an idiot typing into a web browser. When you're the voice of a ballclub, you have a responsibility to behave in a professional manner behind the microphone. Further, as an employee of the franchise, you have a duty to, at the very least, avoid outright attacks on players (who are not only your co-workers, but also the product you are hired to help promote interest in).

Read the way Wayne Krivsky speaks about players on the roster -- even ones he probably wishes he could be rid of -- and compare that to the way Brennaman speaks. One of those two individuals is displaying professionalism, the other is not.

deltachi8
02-18-2007, 10:03 PM
I'm seriously pulling for Adam to moonwalk to LF on opening day...or perhaps lead the team in doing the "hustle" during 70's night.

Chip R
02-18-2007, 10:15 PM
I never heard Carey do that until one day he said out of freaking nowhere, "You know, Sosa spelled backwards is "A-sose."

I'll agree with Yachtzee and say it was endearing. Or, at least it wasn't bitter and uniformed.



Again, regardless of your feelings on Adam Dunn or Marty Brennaman (both of whom I like -- no, really), if you take a step back and look at this objectively, it continues to be kind of absurd. I honestly have never ever seen a baseball announcer take on such a vocal, prolific and unabashed hatred of one particular player on his own team, or any team.


From David Halberstam's book October 1964



It was not always easy for Ken Boyer playing in St. Louis. The other Cardinal players believed that Harry Carey, the immensely popular local announcer, rode Boyer unfairly. For much of his career, Boyer was booed at home, and the source of that booing, the other Cardinal players were sure, was Carey. There was an edge there and Boyer's teammates and his brother Clete believed it came from a moment when Carey was broadcasting a game on the road at the Los Angeles Coliseum and was doing it from field level. He wanted to experiment by doing an interview with Boyer during the game. Boyer had said no, not during the game, perhaps when the game was over. They had apparantly exchanged harsh words, and the Cardinal players believed that Carey had been hard on Boyer ever since. In fact, one of Bob Uecker's best early imitations was of Harry Carey sticking it to Ken Boyer: "Well, here's the Captain, Ken Boyer. Boyer haaaaaaaaasn't had an RBI in his last fifty-two games.... I don't understand why they continue to boo him here at Busch Stadium.... Striiiiiiiike one, he doesn't eeeeeven take the bat off his shoulder... here's striiiiiiike two... and strike three.... He nevvvvvver even took the bat offfff his shoulder. I don't know why they're booing him." None of this ever seemed to bother Boyer. It was as if, as far as he was concerned, the booing and the needling from Carey went with the paycheck.

Cedric
02-18-2007, 10:50 PM
Difference is, I'm just an idiot typing into a web browser. When you're the voice of a ballclub, you have a responsibility to behave in a professional manner behind the microphone. Further, as an employee of the franchise, you have a duty to, at the very least, avoid outright attacks on players (who are not only your co-workers, but also the product you are hired to help promote interest in).

Read the way Wayne Krivsky speaks about players on the roster -- even ones he probably wishes he could be rid of -- and compare that to the way Brennaman speaks. One of those two individuals is displaying professionalism, the other is not.

He's a baseball announcer that has a big ego. Whoopdy doo.

Marty Brenneman says dumb things about Adam Dunn, but I'm guaranteeing that anyone that agrees with him would have before he said it. There is a large mass of fans that still care a ton about K's and the like. What does that mean then? The guy doesn't hurt the fan base and people should just ignore it, IMO.

You shouldn't place him on the pedestal of the GM that makes decisions on a players future and his contract. That's not even close to comparable.

Sorry for edits.

paintmered
02-18-2007, 11:42 PM
The guy doesn't hurt the fan base and people should just ignore it, IMO.


I completely disagree. Marty's comments suggest that the Reds are not worth our time or money. One person that believes him is one less person at the gate.

That hurts the fan base.

big boy
02-19-2007, 12:05 AM
I completely disagree. Marty's comments suggest that the Reds are not worth our time or money. One person that believes him is one less person at the gate.

That hurts the fan base.

If the Reds win, people will show up regardless of mb's opinion.

WMR
02-19-2007, 12:23 AM
Ever heard of: "One hand washes the other?"

Or, in Marty's case, "One hand repeatedly tries to bash the other hand with a hammer?"

Marty comes off sounding like an idiot and one of the Reds' most prominent figureheads routinely bashing his team's best player can't be anything other than bad for business. It does not help the value or "Q" of the Cincinnati Reds franchise.

marcshoe
02-19-2007, 12:25 AM
Too bad announcers can't be censured.

I'm curious about something. Would these guys by chance be the ones doing the morning show on WLW on the last Sunday of the season in 1998 (the McGwire/Sosa year)? The reason I'm asking is that I was driving through Cincy from visiting my father in Terre Haute, and I heard some of the most offensive, untrue things said that morning I have ever heard on the radio. I can't remember the details, but it had to do with people who had come in from Marshall for the Miami football game the previous year (I think), and included several stereotypical hillbilly descriptions I have never seen in reality (rope belts, overalls, barefoot--there was much more, but I dont' recall). The "personalities" swore what they were saying was true, and berated and hung up on people who called and tried to contradict them.

It's not that they were simply making fun of us, it's that they were lying--insisting that this was the truth, that they were serious.

I have always blamed the 2 angry guys, but haven't been sure it was them.

Sorry to go off topic.

edabbs44
02-19-2007, 12:36 AM
If the Reds win, people will show up regardless of mb's opinion.

The Reds were in a race last season...

Ron Madden
02-19-2007, 12:43 AM
I'm curious about something. Would these guys by chance be the ones doing the morning show on WLW on the last Sunday of the season in 1998 (the McGwire/Sosa year)? The reason I'm asking is that I was driving through Cincy from visiting my father in Terre Haute, and I heard some of the most offensive, untrue things said that morning I have ever heard on the radio. I can't remember the details, but it had to do with people who had come in from Marshall for the Miami football game the previous year (I think), and included several stereotypical hillbilly descriptions I have never seen in reality (rope belts, overalls, barefoot--there was much more, but I dont' recall). The "personalities" swore what they were saying was true, and berated and hung up on people who called and tried to contradict them.

It's not that they were simply making fun of us, it's that they were lying--insisting that this was the truth, that they were serious.

I have always blamed the 2 angry guys, but haven't been sure it was them.

Sorry to go off topic.

Andy Furman and Tom Dinkle did Sunday morning Sportstalk in 1998. They were terrible.

Richard Skinner and Tom Gamble do it now. They aren't much better.

Yachtzee
02-19-2007, 12:50 AM
I'm curious about something. Would these guys by chance be the ones doing the morning show on WLW on the last Sunday of the season in 1998 (the McGwire/Sosa year)? The reason I'm asking is that I was driving through Cincy from visiting my father in Terre Haute, and I heard some of the most offensive, untrue things said that morning I have ever heard on the radio. I can't remember the details, but it had to do with people who had come in from Marshall for the Miami football game the previous year (I think), and included several stereotypical hillbilly descriptions I have never seen in reality (rope belts, overalls, barefoot--there was much more, but I dont' recall). The "personalities" swore what they were saying was true, and berated and hung up on people who called and tried to contradict them.

It's not that they were simply making fun of us, it's that they were lying--insisting that this was the truth, that they were serious.

I have always blamed the 2 angry guys, but haven't been sure it was them.

Sorry to go off topic.

The WLW sports talk guys still pull that garbage. Listen to them after the Browns play the Bengals and all they can talk about is how people from Cleveland are fat ugly morons and all the Cleveland women are pigs. Of course WTAM in Cleveland, also owned by Clear Channel, has sports talk guys who talk the same way about Cincinnati people and Cincinnati women in particular. Living in one place and having plenty of family in the other, I take exception to both characterizations. If you want to talk about the way people act, if they're acting like jerks, fine. But don't rip on people based on the way you think they look. That's uncalled for and it's untrue.

realistic
02-19-2007, 01:12 AM
You would choose hustling to and from one's position, which is entirely irrelevant to scoring runs, to home runs, which are actual run scoring events?

Perhaps Marty was spoiled by the Big Red Machine. That was a team of professionals when they stepped on the field. A lot of people may feel that running to the outfield doesnt matter one bit, but Allen Iverson also thinks practice doesnt matter. How many rings does he have? How many times has Dunn been to the playoffs?

Baseball is such a mental game that such a simple thing as hustle can spread an attitude of professionalism. Look at past world series winners they were led by hard nosed 'gamers'. Braves had Maddux,Glavine, etc. Yankees with Jeter. Schilling with the Bosox and the Dbacks. Guys who take intensity to the ballpark every single day - or at least present that arua to opponents, fans, and teammates.

Dunn could have been a leader of this team for the past five years but hes never took the role despite his charisma and super offensive stats. Younger players cant respect a guy who presents that dont care attitude. It wouldnt kill him to run to leftfield and if he needs to save energy by not running 80 yards then he needs a serious offseason conditioning program.

Marty has been critical of several players over the years. This just bothers people so much because they think Dunn is above reproach. Its magnified when you hear it about Dunn. I remember hearing John Ward (former UT Vols announcer) criticize Peyton Manning many many times for his leadership abilities his first couple years and those teams were like 10-1 or 9-2 . Thats part of an announcers job, to report what he sees on a daily basis.

Ill agree running to the outfield does not alter Dunn's stats one bit, but it does help set a team tone. The talent levels in pro sports are so close that often its about who wants to take it, who wants to win more. Im not saying Dunn doesnt want to win, but he could present a more positive image for the younger players and the organization alike.

If you are important enough to the team that someone is actually criticizing your hustle, then your hustle really does matter to the team.

Cyclone792
02-19-2007, 01:43 AM
I want to see Dunn borrow the groundscrew workers golf cart and ride it out to left field on Opening Day.

http://lastperson.suncircle.org/Smileys/default/Guffaw.gif http://lastperson.suncircle.org/Smileys/default/Guffaw.gif http://lastperson.suncircle.org/Smileys/default/Guffaw.gif http://lastperson.suncircle.org/Smileys/default/Guffaw.gif http://lastperson.suncircle.org/Smileys/default/Guffaw.gif

Someone should find Dave Miley and ask him where he put Dunn's chair. Get that chair back and throw some wheels on it. I'd want to see the grounds crew wheel Dunn out to left field in his chair during the 7th inning stretch while everyone else sings Take Me Out to the Ballgame.

redsrule2500
02-19-2007, 04:08 AM
He has a point, and I somewhat agree.

Dunn shows no life, I'd rather have a guy like Freel.

RedsBaron
02-19-2007, 07:41 AM
From David Halberstam's book October 1964

Chip--Thanks for posting the section from Halberstam's book on Carey's anti-Boyer crusade.
Harry Carey had his cult of fans drinking his Kook Aid, just as Marty does now.

Jpup
02-19-2007, 08:19 AM
I often wonder if Marty's ripping on Dunn isn't some kind of inside joke between the two. I can't imagine it being reality. Would Marty dare speak of Adam that way in front of him where he could be called on it?

It has to be a joke.

Ltlabner
02-19-2007, 08:52 AM
The Reds were in a race last season...

Yea, the first time the team had been in a race this century. It will take more than a few months of competitive baseball to lure the fans back.

membengal
02-19-2007, 09:15 AM
Marty has been critical of several players over the years. This just bothers people so much because they think Dunn is above reproach.

NO. It bothered me when Brennamen did it with Willie Greene. It bothered me when he did it with Eric Davis (yes, I am plenty old enough to remember that). It bothers me when he does it with Eric Milton now. It bothers me. It always has. It detracts from the job he does behind the mic. It takes away from what got him into the HoF. It lessens him as a broadcaster. It turns him into a joke, a walking skit, a fool. THAT's what bothers me. I am bothered because he cheapens himself.

Redlegs
02-19-2007, 09:28 AM
I like the fact Marty speaks his mind. Sometimes I think he's dead wrong, but I still like the fact he speaks what he thinks. Having heard other announcers like all of us have, I feel Marty's the best. I'd rather have a guy who slams players from time to time rather than hear someone like Ken Harrelson on White Sox broadcasts. When he teamed up with Tom "Pa-chore-ik" (don't know how to spell it), I used to be sickened by the way they never criticized anything. "Sox try to pull within 12 games of the lead and it's a big game today, Wimpy." " It really is Hawk, who's your pick to click today?"

What a joke.

membengal
02-19-2007, 09:48 AM
Redlegs: I guess you ignore that there are professional ways to "speak your mind" that don't actively slag on the product or create fan hatred for players on the team?

Again, as I feel compelled to note each time this is discussed, I grew up with Brennamen like you all did, in my case sneaking a radio under my pillow when I was four years old in the summer of 1975 to listen to his calls with Joe. And have listened ever since. Went to the HoF not to see Doggie inducted, but instead to honor Marty and silently thank him for being a rich and important part of my life. And to honor his call of games.

BUT, the Dunn thing is emblematic of what has always been a weakness of his. It runs back decades. He was always good enough to not let it take over his persona in the past, but with Dunn, he seems to have slipped into "I don't care about being a professional" mode, and that is highly unfortunate. It really is.

You know what he's done? He's made me dread the first time Dunn Ks during a game this year. Dread his call. Dread waiting for the disgust. Dread knowing that he will be less of a broadcaster than he has always been. That's what is saddest. He used to be better than that.

TRF
02-19-2007, 10:22 AM
He has a point, and I somewhat agree.

Dunn shows no life, I'd rather have a guy like Freel.

I'd rather have a hitter like Dunn.

And I'm a huge Freel fan.

Yachtzee
02-19-2007, 10:23 AM
If you are important enough to the team that someone is actually criticizing your hustle, then your hustle really does matter to the team.

If Dunn were making stupid outs, like getting thrown out at first by the right fielder or failing to make it to second on a hit to the gap, then yes, I would say hustle is an issue. But Ihaven't seen that happening. And it still doesn't change the fact that Marty said he would rather have "hustle" than "home runs." If he were saying that for a guy like Freel, who isn't going to give you a ton of home runs, it might make some kind of sense because no amount of swinging for the fences is going to increase his HR total. If "hustle" results in him getting on base more, then that's a good thing. But if "hustle" results in him getting thrown out stealing bases or trying to stretch singles into doubles and doubles into triples, even then it doesn't help more than it hurts.

For a guy like Dunn, who is a HR hitter and is not really fleet afoot, "hustle" is especially useless. If someone is willing to trade Dunn's home runs for "hustle," then I don't think that person has a firm grasp on what it takes to win ballgames.

marcshoe
02-19-2007, 11:02 AM
Andy Furman and Tom Dinkle did Sunday morning Sportstalk in 1998. They were terrible.

Richard Skinner and Tom Gamble do it now. They aren't much better.

Thanks. I didn't really become familiar with Furman until 2000 (I started listening some during the Griffey trade talks), so I wasn't familiar with him. Looking back, it does seem his style, particularly the way he dealt with callers.

Redlegs
02-19-2007, 11:30 AM
Redlegs: I guess you ignore that there are professional ways to "speak your mind" that don't actively slag on the product or create fan hatred for players on the team?
The day Marty Brennaman begins to think before he speaks on the air, we lose the candid delivery that makes him what he is. Like I said, sometimes I think he's off base in some of his comments, but I wouldn't want him to change a thing.

I do not feel he has created fan hatred toward Adam Dunn. To assume that would be underminding the intellegence of Cincinnati baseball fans. They see the games and form their opinions. Based on the reaction to this thread, I see an overwhelming support of Adam Dunn. You'll see plenty of #44 jerseys at GABP this season as well.

Ltlabner
02-19-2007, 11:31 AM
You know what he's done? He's made me dread the first time Dunn Ks during a game this year. Dread his call. Dread waiting for the disgust. Dread knowing that he will be less of a broadcaster than he has always been. That's what is saddest. He used to be better than that.

And I dread the first time it happens and we get 16 pages of Marty sucks.

Face it, he's reflecting what the vast majority of casual fans are already thinking when Dunn K's. "good lord, we're paying him $10,000,000 a year to do that?!?!"

Both Marty and the fans are dead wrong about it being the end of the world if Dunner K's, but Marty is simply reflecting (1) what the fans already are thinking (2) the old school thinking about K's that Marty and the fans grew up being taught/beliving.

Now, could Marty use his bully pulpit to educate the fans about the value of OPB, that the walks offset the K's, that choking up and just trying to make contact would likely result in more ground outs/pop flys than productive hits, etc etc.....of course! But the fact that Marty is espousing the same line of thinking millions of fans already think, and that Marty has spent his entire professional carear being emersed in, shouldn't suprise anyone.

Then again, how many broadcast teams really discuss all of the OBP/OPS/RC27/VORP stuff that getts tossed around on RZ? None. A few touch on OBP/OPS but none that I know of are versed in the new ways of evaluating baseball, much less activley educating their listeners.

Ltlabner
02-19-2007, 11:33 AM
I do not feel he has created fan hatred toward Adam Dunn. To assume that would be underminding the intellegence of Cincinnati baseball fans. They see the games and form their opinions. Based on the reaction to this thread, I see an overwhelming support of Adam Dunn. You'll see plenty of #44 jerseys at GABP this season as well.

You are correct, he is simply reinforcing the fans already held and established beliefe that K's are bad. The idea that Marty somehow started this bandwagon of fans who think K's are bad all on his poofy haired own is silly. As is the idea that he is whipping up "Dunn hatred". All fans around baseball hold up the most tallented and highly paid players on the team to unrealistic standards and expect them to be infallable because their paycheck has so many zeros in it. If Marty went on a corrdinated campaign today to educate fans about the worth of Dunner, there would remain a large core of fans who would never be happy with what Dunn produces.

Yachtzee
02-19-2007, 12:41 PM
And I dread the first time it happens and we get 16 pages of Marty sucks.

Face it, he's reflecting what the vast majority of casual fans are already thinking when Dunn K's. "good lord, we're paying him $10,000,000 a year to do that?!?!"

Both Marty and the fans are dead wrong about it being the end of the world if Dunner K's, but Marty is simply reflecting (1) what the fans already are thinking (2) the old school thinking about K's that Marty and the fans grew up being taught/beliving.

Now, could Marty use his bully pulpit to educate the fans about the value of OPB, that the walks offset the K's, that choking up and just trying to make contact would likely result in more ground outs/pop flys than productive hits, etc etc.....of course! But the fact that Marty is espousing the same line of thinking millions of fans already think, and that Marty has spent his entire professional carear being emersed in, shouldn't suprise anyone.

Then again, how many broadcast teams really discuss all of the OBP/OPS/RC27/VORP stuff that getts tossed around on RZ? None. A few touch on OBP/OPS but none that I know of are versed in the new ways of evaluating baseball, much less activley educating their listeners.

I don't really care if Marty talks about OBP and the like. I just can't stand it when he says stupid stuff and uses his bully pulpit to unfairly bash one of the team's best players. Marty says stupid stuff all the time and no one has the guts to call him on it, either on the air or in print. I don't care if it reflects what the casual fan thinks. Marty has a public forum and "professionalism" dictates that he use that public forum in a professional manner. Its one thing to say, "I really think Adam Dunn needs to work on some areas of his game" every once in a while. That's being candid. But to say stuff like "I've just about given up on him" and "I'd rather he hustle than hit home runs" or something to that effect, with his voice dripping with disdain, is downright unprofessional no matter how you slice it. Marty opens his mouth to dog Dunn at every opportunity and the only time I've heard him praise Dunn in the last year or so was for one walk-off home run that people like to use as evidence that he's not "against" Dunn. Well one call is not the rule, it's the exception.

Marty talks about being a "professional," but when he gets started on Dunn or Milton or Jim Bowden when the Nats are in town, it's not "professional." If anything it's childish. Criticize the performance if you like, but do so in an objective and neutral manner. Save the disdain and sarcasm for your friends off the air. I could tolerate the misinformed opinions if they came without the bile.

What really stinks is that if I want to follow the Reds, I have to listen to Marty spew his venom. I don't have the benefit of turning on Georgie Sunshine and the Creeper because I'm out of market and can't afford the EI package. My only other option is to follow it through game threads and chat on this website. Maybe if the Reds start a Spanish language broadcast, I'll learn Spanish.

George Anderson
02-19-2007, 12:45 PM
Thanks. I didn't really become familiar with Furman until 2000 (I started listening some during the Griffey trade talks), so I wasn't familiar with him. Looking back, it does seem his style, particularly the way he dealt with callers.

Did Furman find a new gig yet?

dabvu2498
02-19-2007, 01:17 PM
Did Furman find a new gig yet?

http://www.supertalkfm965.com/Personalities/AndyFurman/tabid/56/Default.aspx

Ltlabner
02-19-2007, 01:18 PM
What really stinks is that if I want to follow the Reds, I have to listen to Marty spew his venom. .

What I find funny is that when Marty craps all over Dunn its "spewing venom". When it's crapping all over Eric Milton it's "the truth" or "just being realistic".

There have been very few people who claim that they don't like Marty to rip on any of the Reds players (M2 comes to mind). For the most part, my experience on RZ has been that it's because he's crapping on Dunn, and people here are by nature a bit protective/defenseive about Dunn that Marty runs afoul with a bunch of folks (not everybody, but it seems to be the vocal majority). If the main target of his attacks was Milton or Mike Burns I serriously doubt we'd have as many people complaining about the attacks on players. There would be some, but not nearly as many as when it's Dunner getting broadsided.

I'd much rather have a broadcaster with an opinion that is wrong, than a broadcaster with no opinions whatsoever and always be right. Marty all day or George Grande/Steve Stewart? Marty by a landslide. But that's my personal preference, I understand everybody has a different view.

gonelong
02-19-2007, 01:19 PM
You are correct, he is simply reinforcing the fans already held and established beliefe that K's are bad. The idea that Marty somehow started this bandwagon of fans who think K's are bad all on his poofy haired own is silly. [quote]

You keep saying this. Show me where someone has made that argument. I believe you think I did, however, I did not.

[quote] As is the idea that he is whipping up "Dunn hatred". All fans around baseball hold up the most tallented and highly paid players on the team to unrealistic standards and expect them to be infallable because their paycheck has so many zeros in it.

I don't really care if fans across MLB do that. I do care when the radio PBP guy does it.


If Marty went on a corrdinated campaign today to educate fans about the worth of Dunner, there would remain a large core of fans who would never be happy with what Dunn produces.

No doubt, but he'd sway some of the more casual fans IMO.

GL

westofyou
02-19-2007, 01:21 PM
What I find funny is that when Marty craps all over Dunn its "spewing venom". When it's crapping all over Eric Milton it's "the truth" or "just being realistic".

What I find funny is that anyone could compare the two comparisons.

What did Marty say about Milton? It probably fills 1/2 of a 3x5 card, every call in or interview this off season (and prior) he's brought up Dunn, and derides his power and and what he does bring to the team.

What's Eric Milton bring to the team?

Ltlabner
02-19-2007, 01:25 PM
You keep saying this. Show me where someone has made that argument. I believe you think I did, however, I did not.

Several folks have made the argument that Marty has a legion of listeners who believe every word he says. "Takes his word as gospel" is what I seem to remember. Do a search on your own.

My contention has been and remains...

1) There will be a small segment of fans who take Marty's word as gospel because they are casual fans at best and want to get on a radio show, co-opt Martys comments so they can appear baseball-smart around the water-cooler, etc.

2) For topics like K's, RBI's, hustle, etc Marty isn't swaying anybody. Most casual fans think K's are the devil, RBI's are the only/best indicator of productive atbats and hustle is king all on their own. Marty is only repeating what they already believe.

Yachtzee
02-19-2007, 01:25 PM
Well count me in the camp who doesn't like it when Marty speaks ill of any player, or anyone else for that matter. With his voice dripping with disdain and sarcasm, it totally rubs me the wrong way. Just because Dunn is his favorite target doesn't mean I'm okay with it when he does it to others. As I said, criticism is one thing. Spewing venom is spewing venom, no matter who its directed at. I don't like Jim Bowden as a person or a GM, but I would never broadcast my dislike of Bowden over the air and I think Marty sounds childish when he does it.

Ltlabner
02-19-2007, 01:27 PM
What I find funny is that anyone could compare the two comparisons.

What did Marty say about Milton? It probably fills 1/2 of a 3x5 card, every call in or interview this off season (and prior) he's brought up Dunn, and derides his power and and what he does bring to the team.

What's Eric Milton bring to the team?

Eric Milton brings heartache and agony to the team.

Marty is dead wrong about Dunn. Never made the case that he was right.

But I contend that if Marty praised Dunn and only attacked say David Weathers, Eric Milton or David Ross we'd have very few "Marty's too negative and crotchity" threads. Fact is, having to defend Dunn all the time at RZ does make people pretty defenseive about the large one in LF.

westofyou
02-19-2007, 01:30 PM
Well count me in the camp who doesn't like it when Marty speaks ill of any player, or anyone else for that matter. With his voice dripping with disdain and sarcasm, it totally rubs me the wrong way. Just because Dunn is his favorite target doesn't mean I'm okay with it when he does it to others. As I said, criticism is one thing. Spewing venom is spewing venom, no matter who its directed at. I don't like Jim Bowden as a person or a GM, but I would never broadcast my dislike of Bowden over the air and I think Marty sounds childish when he does it.

Yep, heard him rip an opposing manager, GM, Player, Front office type?

Check

Heard him rip and email writer

Check

Heard him rip someone who called in on the phone

Check

Heard him rip someone in the press

Check

and on and on and on....

gonelong
02-19-2007, 01:37 PM
There have been very few people who claim that they don't like Marty to rip on any of the Reds players (M2 comes to mind).

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1235106&postcount=22
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1235467&postcount=49
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1235472&postcount=50
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1235496&postcount=53

You can add myself, Roy Tucker, Yachtzee, Always Red to that list.

I think alot more people would say the same, they just haven't to this point.

GL

TRF
02-19-2007, 01:38 PM
I have no problem with being candid about a players performance.

I have a huge problem with said announcer not understanding a players performance.

ERA and HR's allowed are decent enough stats to evaluate a pitcher. Milton is bad in both areas when he's healthy, and he's never been healthy as a Red.

BA and RBI's are bad stats when evaluating a hitter.

And by now, Marty should know better.

Oh, and I never want to see a 270 lb LF sprinting to his position. ever. That's wasted energy. Maybe that's fine for Todd Coffey, who does it once per game that he appears in, it is not fine for a guy like Dunn.

big boy
02-19-2007, 02:37 PM
The Reds were in a race last season...

The Reds had a losing season in 2006.

Patrick Bateman
02-19-2007, 03:06 PM
The Reds had a losing season in 2006.

And still only a couple of games from the playoffs.

You can argue that the Reds team wasn't very good last season (and you would probably win), but they were in a race last season, regardless if it was due to them being good, or everyone else being really bad.

durl
02-19-2007, 04:09 PM
Every single week the value of my Marty-autographed Reds jersey just keeps doing a nose dive.

Personally, I don't care if Dunn jogs to his position. (It's not like he strolls out there.) I'd rather see him track fly balls better but running to his position between innings isn't going to help that.

Matt700wlw
02-19-2007, 04:12 PM
Andy Furman and Tom Dinkle did Sunday morning Sportstalk in 1998. They were terrible.

Richard Skinner and Tom Gamble do it now. They aren't much better.

During the week now, Tom and Richard are split. Richard still does mornings on Homer, while Tom does 6-9 on WLW (except Tuesdays when he teaches a night class at NKU). Seg fills in on tuesdays (and I would assume he would fill in if Tom took vacation -- hasn't happened yet).

Dom Heffner
02-19-2007, 04:17 PM
Who led the league in ground outs last year? I'm going to rip that guy like Marty does Adam. :)

Redlegs
02-19-2007, 04:17 PM
The Reds were in a race last season...



The Reds had a losing season in 2006.

You're both correct. Big Boy, the Reds were tied for 1st place heading into September and heading out to that infamous late season west coast trip. I think that more than qualifies for being in the race.

westofyou
02-19-2007, 04:21 PM
Who led the league in ground outs last year? I'm going to rip that guy like Marty does Adam. :)

I'd say it's Pierre

Here's your top ten out makers last year and their RC/27 vs the league average at their position.


NATIONAL LEAGUE
SEASON
2006
RUNS CREATED/GAME vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

OUTS OUTS RC/G
1 Juan Pierre 532 -.33
2 Jimmy Rollins 521 1.22
3 Jeff Francoeur 506 -1.14
4 Alfonso Soriano 493 1.18
5 Rafael Furcal 486 1.54
6 Felipe Lopez 483 0.46
7 Pedro Feliz 482 -2.19
8 Jose Reyes 478 1.87
9 Hanley Ramirez 477 1.54
10 Chase Utley 472 2.86

Juan Pierre made all the outs for the equal of 21 Cubs games... Magic.....

Redlegs
02-19-2007, 04:22 PM
Who led the league in ground outs last year? I'm going to rip that guy like Marty does Adam. :)

The point is the strikeout has no value whatsoever. If you have a guy on 3rd with less than two outs, would you want a groundout to 2nd or a strikeout? There are times when a groundout has a huge difference in a game compared to a strikeout.

Dunn's a power hitter. Strikeouts come with the territory, but if he can cut down on them a great deal, it will help his team win games. That's why he went so long without having a sac fly. He has to improve on making contact. The good news is, he's only 27 and has been reported to have come to camp with a new mindset this year.

Yachtzee
02-19-2007, 04:23 PM
I'd say it's Pierre

Here's your top ten out makers last year and their RC/27 vs the league average at their position.


NATIONAL LEAGUE
SEASON
2006
RUNS CREATED/GAME vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

OUTS OUTS RC/G
1 Juan Pierre 532 -.33
2 Jimmy Rollins 521 1.22
3 Jeff Francoeur 506 -1.14
4 Alfonso Soriano 493 1.18
5 Rafael Furcal 486 1.54
6 Felipe Lopez 483 0.46
7 Pedro Feliz 482 -2.19
8 Jose Reyes 478 1.87
9 Hanley Ramirez 477 1.54
10 Chase Utley 472 2.86

Juan Pierre made all the outs for the equal of 21 Cubs games... Magic.....

Maybe he didn't show enough hustle.

Redsland
02-19-2007, 05:10 PM
If you have a guy on 3rd with less than two outs, would you want a groundout to 2nd or a strikeout?
If a base hit is on the menu, I'd probably rather have one of those.

Given your two choices, though, I'd take the strikeout. Furthermore, I'd have that strikeout squirt through the catcher and go to the backstop. That would score the baserunner and put the batter on first base.

Redlegs
02-19-2007, 05:27 PM
Given your two choices, though, I'd take the strikeout. Furthermore, I'd have that strikeout squirt through the catcher and go to the backstop. That would score the baserunner and put the batter on first base.
Why you're at it, why not just have the aforementioned squirtting baseball take a crazy bounce off the backstop and skip into the dugout? That would advance the batter even further.

TRF
02-19-2007, 05:34 PM
The point is the strikeout has no value whatsoever. If you have a guy on 3rd with less than two outs, would you want a groundout to 2nd or a strikeout? There are times when a groundout has a huge difference in a game compared to a strikeout.

Dunn's a power hitter. Strikeouts come with the territory, but if he can cut down on them a great deal, it will help his team win games. That's why he went so long without having a sac fly. He has to improve on making contact. The good news is, he's only 27 and has been reported to have come to camp with a new mindset this year.

This situation came up for Dunn 20 times last year.

20 AB's out of 561.

His BA was .150. he went 3-20, had he gotten 2 more hits his BA would have been .250, 3 more hits it would have been .300.

He K'd 9 times and had 11 RBI.

Can we please let this go now? The sample is so small, it's pointless to talk about it. We are talking about roughly 4% of his AB's.

Redsland
02-19-2007, 05:52 PM
Presumably we can look forward to Marty "tell it like it is" Brennamen calling out Scott Hatteberg on those occasions when he fails to sprint from the dugout to his defensive position.

edabbs44
02-19-2007, 05:57 PM
Yea, the first time the team had been in a race this century. It will take more than a few months of competitive baseball to lure the fans back.

Then the "fans" are just that..."fans".

Small mkt teams do not have a real good chance at being consistently good. Many of these teams need to catch lightning in a bottle for a few years and then when their young talent gets too expensive, the team has to start over.

So when these "fans" get a chance to see playoff race baseball, they should grab some tix and head out to GABP.

Caveat Emperor
02-19-2007, 06:49 PM
The point is the strikeout has no value whatsoever.

The strikeout makes the pitcher throw, at minimum, 3 pitches to retire you. I'd rather have a 7 or 8 pitch AB that ends in a strikeout than a first-pitch swinging weak grounder to short.

Taking pitches and working the count causes the starter to labor and increases the likelihood that you'll get to what, for most teams, is the weakest part of their roster -- mid-inning middle relief.

Or, go ahead and hack at that first pitch. Maybe you'll make the starter tired just watching how hard you run.

pedro
02-19-2007, 07:31 PM
The strikeout makes the pitcher throw, at minimum, 3 pitches to retire you. I'd rather have a 7 or 8 pitch AB that ends in a strikeout than a first-pitch swinging weak grounder to short.

Taking pitches and working the count causes the starter to labor and increases the likelihood that you'll get to what, for most teams, is the weakest part of their roster -- mid-inning middle relief.

Or, go ahead and hack at that first pitch. Maybe you'll make the starter tired just watching how hard you run.

I'm for wearing the pitcher down with icy resolve and good old american know how!

deltachi8
02-19-2007, 07:59 PM
Then the "fans" are just that..."fans".

Small mkt teams do not have a real good chance at being consistently good. Many of these teams need to catch lightning in a bottle for a few years and then when their young talent gets too expensive, the team has to start over.

So when these "fans" get a chance to see playoff race baseball, they should grab some tix and head out to GABP.

Or just run your organization smartly. Know when to trade your assets and develop new ones. Move guys a year too early rather than one to late.

Redlegs
02-19-2007, 08:47 PM
The strikeout makes the pitcher throw, at minimum, 3 pitches to retire you. I'd rather have a 7 or 8 pitch AB that ends in a strikeout than a first-pitch swinging weak grounder to short.

Taking pitches and working the count causes the starter to labor and increases the likelihood that you'll get to what, for most teams, is the weakest part of their roster -- mid-inning middle relief.

Or, go ahead and hack at that first pitch. Maybe you'll make the starter tired just watching how hard you run.

We're not talking about a quality at bat vs. a poor at bat. Working the count is always good thing, and even better when the ball is put in play. Hitting a ground ball makes the fielder field the ball, make a throw, and have the first baseman receive it. Striking out does none of that, unless it happens on a wild pitch or past ball. Also, a weak grounder to short just may get the run home in the scenerio I mentioned earlier.

jojo
02-19-2007, 09:07 PM
Then the "fans" are just that..."fans".

Small mkt teams do not have a real good chance at being consistently good. Many of these teams need to catch lightning in a bottle for a few years and then when their young talent gets too expensive, the team has to start over.


Oh bunky poo poo..... Oakland and Minnesota don't seem to be struggling to get ahead...

Redlegs
02-19-2007, 09:40 PM
Oh bunky poo poo..... Oakland and Minnesota don't seem to be struggling to get ahead...
Agreed. Same goes for the Florida Marlins a few years back when they took down the high priced Yankees. Smaller markets just have to work a little harder and a whole lot smarter until baseball wises up and gets a salary cap.

edabbs44
02-19-2007, 10:02 PM
Oh bunky poo poo..... Oakland and Minnesota don't seem to be struggling to get ahead...

Those are the exceptions, not the rule.

Blitz Dorsey
02-20-2007, 02:55 AM
I don't always agree with Marty, but I am going to miss him when he's gone. Calling for his retirement is a bit much IMO. I love that Marty lets it fly, even if I don't always concur with him. He is a dying breed in the business and is a Cincinnati Reds legend.

Ron Madden
02-20-2007, 04:09 AM
During the week now, Tom and Richard are split. Richard still does mornings on Homer, while Tom does 6-9 on WLW (except Tuesdays when he teaches a night class at NKU). Seg fills in on tuesdays (and I would assume he would fill in if Tom took vacation -- hasn't happened yet).

Tixe ask about Sunday Mornining SportsSqualk. ;)

Ron Madden
02-20-2007, 05:03 AM
NO. It bothered me when Brennamen did it with Willie Greene. It bothered me when he did it with Eric Davis (yes, I am plenty old enough to remember that). It bothers me when he does it with Eric Milton now. It bothers me. It always has. It detracts from the job he does behind the mic. It takes away from what got him into the HoF. It lessens him as a broadcaster. It turns him into a joke, a walking skit, a fool. THAT's what bothers me. I am bothered because he cheapens himself.

I agree. What bothers me is that Marty isn't Marty anymore.

He is still the best when he wants to be. Nobody was ever better calling game winning plays than Marty. He can still do that.

It bothers me that Marty now sounds bored doing PBP untill it comes down to that game winning play.

It has always bothered me that Marty has little faith and is so quick to give up on youg talented players.

It bothers me when Beat Writers, Sportstalk Host, and Fans must agree with anything and everything Marty has to say in order to escape a verbal tongue lashing from "The Hall Of Famer".

It bothers me when myself and others are labeled as "Marty Haters'.

I (we) do not hate Marty! We sometimes hate the silly things he says.

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 08:05 AM
NO. It bothered me when Brennamen did it with Willie Greene. It bothered me when he did it with Eric Davis (yes, I am plenty old enough to remember that). It bothers me when he does it with Eric Milton now. It bothers me. It always has. It detracts from the job he does behind the mic. It takes away from what got him into the HoF. It lessens him as a broadcaster. It turns him into a joke, a walking skit, a fool. THAT's what bothers me. I am bothered because he cheapens himself.

I can understand where you are comming from on the player bashing stuff. But I guess I can just compartamentize the flaws I don't care for becuause of all the good things he does. Fantastic big moment calls. Painting a picuture of what goes on on the field. Distinctive voices. Years of being a "fixture". For me, listening to him moan about Bowden for a minute out of an entire broadcast doesn't erase all of the good stuff he does.

Every person has flaws in their professional life. Even you Membengal. Do you call yourself a joke, walking skit or a fool because of the limited number of flaws in your work performance versus all of the things I'm sure you do very well?

I guess Marty's good far outweighs the minor flaws (or minor to me, I know they really bug other folks) in my book.

membengal
02-20-2007, 08:25 AM
Am I a public person and the face of a franchise? (I am not). IF I were, I promise you, I would make certain not to do what he does.

Am I flawed? Well, duh. Of course. But I promise you, I make certain that my flaws DON'T include slagging on all the new hires at my firm, going around to other firms in town and talking about how crappy the new guys are, and slagging on our top biller because he doesn't get to depositions 5 minutes early. And if I did? The second my bosses found out? I would be an unemployed attorney. Very quickly.

There is a part of what he does in terms of how he communicates criticism about players that I simply don't understand in light of who he is. You and I are at an agree to disagree point on that.

And, again, you, like others, seems to read criticism like I have of Brennamen to mean I see nothing redeeming in him. I am pretty sure that all of my posts discuss how much esteem I hold him in. But he is completely wrong to do what he does to players like Dunn (and Milton, etc. etc. etc.). And it does take away from who he was and who he still can be when he wants to be.

RANDY IN INDY
02-20-2007, 08:49 AM
The point is, you should ignore some people's flaws, because they don't matter, but you should recognize and jump up and down on other's flaws because they do.

Cedric
02-20-2007, 11:53 AM
Can we at least keep the Marty bashing comments in this thread? Every damn thread now has some lame joke about Adam Dunn and Marty.

westofyou
02-20-2007, 12:03 PM
Poor Marty getting it from all sides now is he?

Try the report post button or use the rep feature, that's what they're there for.

Cedric
02-20-2007, 12:35 PM
Poor Marty getting it from all sides now is he?

Try the report post button or use the rep feature, that's what they're there for.

Nah, I'll just post it where I did.

Thanks though.

gonelong
02-20-2007, 01:16 PM
The point is, you should ignore some people's flaws, because they don't matter, but you should recognize and jump up and down on other's flaws because they do.

Is that Marty's credo? :laugh:

Hey, we agree on something (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1235124&postcount=261)! :party:

GL

harangatang
02-20-2007, 01:24 PM
Give me a guy that'll run to his position and run off the field. So is Todd Coffey the only "half" decent pitcher the Reds have on the ballclub? I mean Coffey only runs on the field but that's more than any of the rest of the pitchers.

RANDY IN INDY
02-20-2007, 01:29 PM
Is that Marty's credo? :laugh:

Hey, we agree on something (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1235124&postcount=261)! :party:

GL

And apparently a lot of other folks.

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 03:00 PM
Am I a public person and the face of a franchise? (I am not). IF I were, I promise you, I would make certain not to do what he does.

Am I flawed? Well, duh. Of course. But I promise you, I make certain that my flaws DON'T include slagging on all the new hires at my firm, going around to other firms in town and talking about how crappy the new guys are, and slagging on our top biller because he doesn't get to depositions 5 minutes early. And if I did? The second my bosses found out? I would be an unemployed attorney. Very quickly..

I don't think you hate Marty but when you say he's a joke and a farce because of this flaw of his then it's sorta hard to hear your esteem. But, as you said, we are at an agree-to-disagree point I suppose.

You raise an interesting point. Marty has been one of the faces (well, voices) of the franchise for many years. He's had these "fueds" with a number of players over the years (I think WOY pointed out several). Yet ownership/management hasn't seemed to care too much. Or at least, if they've dealt with something it's been behind closed doors. I wonder if they view his "tell it like it is (acording to Marty)" style as an asset because so many casual fans seem to value that approach? Even though it's counter-intuitive, perhaps they can live with a certian level of Marty-ness as they think the fans will revolt if they put a muzzle on him.

pedro
02-20-2007, 03:06 PM
I don't think you hate Marty but when you say he's a joke and a farce because of this flaw of his then it's sorta hard to hear your esteem. But, as you said, we are at an agree-to-disagree point I suppose.

You raise an interesting point. Marty has been one of the faces (well, voices) of the franchise for many years. He's had these "fueds" with a number of players over the years (I think WOY pointed out several). Yet ownership/management hasn't seemed to care too much. Or at least, if they've dealt with something it's been behind closed doors. I wonder if they view his "tell it like it is (acording to Marty)" style as an asset because so many casual fans seem to value that approach? Even though it's counter-intuitive, perhaps they can live with a certian level of Marty-ness as they think the fans will revolt if they put a muzzle on him.


I think that Marty's schtick probably didn't bother Marge or Carl because they were both somewhat older and less sophisticated about marketing than most owners. I'm sure they never even said anything to Marty about it.

I'm not so sure about Castellini though. I don't think he's as likely to ignore this type of stuff as the previous two owners.

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 03:29 PM
I'm not so sure about Castellini though. I don't think he's as likely to ignore this type of stuff as the previous two owners.

I wonder if part of bringing in Thom was factoring in the "Marty Situation" should a real standoff ever occur between BCast and Marty? Sort of a way to continue in the Marty style of broadcasting while bringing in a "kindler, gentler, Marty".

And he's only going to adress Marty's on-air comments if he feals/has evidence that Marty is effecting the bottom line of the Reds. While some here can make a case that "talking down the economy" occurs due to Marty, unless he really is effecting the teams profits BCast isn't going to put a muzzle on him, and might actually create a backlash were he to do so.

The #1 reason casual fans have stayed away from the ballpark has been because the Reds have sucked. If Marty starts praising Dunn daily, but the Reds still suck, it's not going to convince people to come to the ballpark. Only sustained/consistent winning will do that.

westofyou
02-20-2007, 03:31 PM
Yet ownership/management hasn't seemed to care too much.

That's what a faceless franchise gives you in return, straw man leadership with no backbone to market the team outside of the standard.. "Hey it's summer come to the ballpark"

Obviously that hasn't been the best method the past 2 decades has it?

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 03:35 PM
That's what a faceless franchise gives you in return, straw man leadership with no backbone to market the team outside of the standard.. "Hey it's summer come to the ballpark"

Obviously that hasn't been the best method the past 2 decades has it?

And again I ask...if the Reds suck, and Marty fawns over Dunn and is nothing but 100% wonderfull in the booth, will that really do much for attendence? That's the bottom line. And I don't buy into the idea that Marty can whip up faux-excitement for the Reds by playing nice-nice on air.

Caveat Emperor
02-20-2007, 03:37 PM
And again I ask...if the Reds suck, and Marty fawns over Dunn and is nothing but 100% wonderfull in the booth, will that really do much for attendence?

What's that age-old marketing theory about 1 dissatisfied customer being worse for business than 100 happy ones?

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 03:38 PM
What's that age-old marketing theory about 1 dissatisfied customer being worse for business than 100 happy ones?

Are the fans dissatisfied because Marty rips on Bowden/Dunn?

Or beacuse the Reds haven't won crap since the turn of the century?

westofyou
02-20-2007, 03:42 PM
And again I ask...if the Reds suck, and Marty fawns over Dunn and is nothing but 100% wonderfull in the booth, will that really do much for attendence? That's the bottom line. And I don't buy into the idea that Marty can whip up faux-excitement for the Reds by playing nice-nice on air.

Sorry that you don't buy into the voice of the franchise being just that.... the voice of the franchise.

Some people still think Marge was OK too.

George Anderson
02-20-2007, 03:44 PM
Sorry that you don't buy into the voice of the franchise being just that.... the voice of the franchise.

Some people still think Marge was OK too.

If its about an owner producing a winner on the field, then yes Marge was no doubt very ok!!!

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 03:44 PM
Sorry that you don't buy into the voice of the franchise being just that.... the voice of the franchise.

Some people still think Marge was OK too.

So Marty should play nice-nice, kiss Dunn's butt and never utter an opinion on air (unless, of course, it is approved and condoned by RZ)?

Then he'd be George Grande.

And we all know his story.

westofyou
02-20-2007, 03:44 PM
Are the fans dissatisfied because Marty rips on Bowden/Dunn?

Or beacuse the Reds haven't won crap since the turn of the century?

Marty hit town 2 years before I ever did, now I listen other teams feeds because of his venom and disinterested take on all things not in the realm of Mart's world view.

He lost me and I'm positive I'm not the only one.

westofyou
02-20-2007, 03:45 PM
So Marty should play nice-nice, kiss Dunn's butt and never utter an opinion on air (unless, of course, it is approved and condoned by RZ)?

Then he'd be George Grande.

And we all know his story.

Yeah kiss his butt is what everyone's saying he should do.

Have any other words you want to put in my mouth?

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 03:48 PM
Yeah kiss his butt is what everyone's saying he should do.

Have any other words you want to put in my mouth?

Ok, so if he is complementary of Dunn's efforts, realizes his value to the team, and limits his critiscim only valid areas, and the Reds still suck.....this will improve attendence how?

pedro
02-20-2007, 03:51 PM
would Steve Balmer be "telling it like it is" if he called MS Office "Bloatware"?

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 03:52 PM
would Steve Balmer be "telling it like it is" if he called MS Office "Bloatware"?

Does anyone take him serriously for pretending it isn't?

westofyou
02-20-2007, 03:54 PM
If its about an owner producing a winner on the field, then yes Marge was no doubt very ok!!!
Blech, Nero was great emperor too... built that great theatrical culture for the Romans to soak up.

That worked out well in the long run didn't it?

Strength is a top to bottom toll for a baseball organization, Marge was a surface person with surface values and we're still feeling the effects to this day.

But then again some want to give her the credit for 1990.

But not me, she just happened to be there.

George Anderson
02-20-2007, 04:02 PM
Blech, Nero was great emperor too... built that great theatrical culture for the Romans to soak up.

That worked out well in the long run didn't it?

Strength is a top to bottom toll for a baseball organization, Marge was a surface person with surface values and we're still feeling the effects to this day.

But then again some want to give her the credit for 1990.

But not me, she just happened to be there.



Marge Schott's record as owner speaks for herself. During her reign as owner only Ted Turner won more games in the NL. She was a little strange no doubt, but being a Reds fan was a lot more enjoyable winning with her as owner.

pedro
02-20-2007, 04:03 PM
Does anyone take him serriously for pretending it isn't?


from a marketing stand point it sure doesn't hurt.

Dom Heffner
02-20-2007, 04:12 PM
The point is the strikeout has no value whatsoever. If you have a guy on 3rd with less than two outs, would you want a groundout to 2nd or a strikeout? There are times when a groundout has a huge difference in a game compared to a strikeout.

Or- what happens more often is you come up with a man on first. Now, do you want Dunn to ground out or strikeout given the way he hustles?

westofyou
02-20-2007, 04:13 PM
Marge Schott's record as owner speaks for herself. During her reign as owner only Ted Turner won more games in the NL. She was a little strange no doubt, but being a Reds fan was a lot more enjoyable winning with her as owner.
Some people also think Chilis is a good place to eat.

I don't

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 04:15 PM
from a marketing stand point it sure doesn't hurt.

But MS marketing works for a myrid of reasons little of which has anything to do with him being a Rah-Rah chearleader for MS. MS marketing works because people like the product (you can argue over all of MS's issues/drawbacks on a different thread).

Attendence will increase only when the Reds are winning consistantly. Having Marty be nice to Dunn, and not be such a meanie has zero to do with why the seats are empty.

Once the Reds win regularly, then we can stop worring about the forrest and focus on the poofy haired tree.

westofyou
02-20-2007, 04:30 PM
Having Marty be nice to Dunn, and not be such a meanie has zero to do with why the seats are empty.

Got some data for that?

Your assertion is on the same ground as the other side.

Any person selling something in this world would prefer that the spokesmen for the product being sold focus on the positives instead of the negatives, which we all know is not the approach that Marty takes.

I know what I'm buying when I listen to Marty and it's not how much so and so stinks or is overrated, that's just a stream from the privy to my drinking water and I find it does nothing to enhance the product.

gonelong
02-20-2007, 04:33 PM
Ok, so if he is complementary of Dunn's efforts, realizes his value to the team, and limits his critiscim only valid areas, and the Reds still suck.....this will improve attendence how?

Its not about Dunn. Really, its not.

GL

westofyou
02-20-2007, 04:36 PM
Its not about Dunn. Really, its not.

GL

So true, thinking it is red herring the size of the Titanic.

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 04:40 PM
Any person selling something in this world would prefer that the spokesmen for the product being sold focus on the positives instead of the negatives, which we all know is not the approach that Marty takes..

I'm in industrial sales. Of course you focus on the positives. You are also a liar and not protecting the customer if you ignore the negatives/short commings of a specific product. I don't trust any salesperson who never has a bad thing to say about their products. They just aren't being honest as there is no such thing as a perfect product.

Could Marty be more suave and smooth about the discussing the negatives. Yea. Does his view of what is negative neccesarly jive with reality (ie Dunn's K's). No. But would he be doing his job as "face of the franchise" if he never said anything bad about the on-field product? Never in a million years.

And all of this assumes the Reds want Marty to be the "face/voice of the francise"/marketing tool rather than a radio play-by-play announcer who entertains a lot of people durring ball games.

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 04:43 PM
Its not about Dunn. Really, its not.

GL

You are 100% right.

The issue is do more people find Marty interesting and tune in to 700wlw so they can sell more advertising than don't. It's got nothing to do with marketing the Reds, being the face of the franchise and all that other non-sense.

Since he's continued to have his contract extended, and many advertisers have been with 700 for years, I'd say he's doing a fine job.

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 04:45 PM
So true, thinking it is red herring the size of the Titanic.

Somehow if the title of the thread was "Marty Brennaman slams Juan Castro...again", I don't think we'd be up to 189 responces. So yea, that he choose to rip on Dunn, who is feircely protected by most of RZ, most certinally plays a role in the issue.

westofyou
02-20-2007, 04:48 PM
And all of this assumes the Reds want Marty to be the "face/voice of the francise"/marketing tool rather than a radio play-by-play announcer who entertains a lot of people durring ball games.

Assumes?

He is the Broadcasting face of the franchise, he is the 1st entry on page 500 of the Reds Media Guide underneath Reds on the Airwaves, where they mention his tenure, his HOF entry and his awards. He does call ins to XM, ESPN, FOX and other outlets, he is the "Voice of the Reds" and has been for over 3 decades.

He's also known for saying, "I was here before you and will be here after you are gone" to several players.

Sounds to me like he's bigger then just a play by play man in the clubs (and his) eyes

Caveat Emperor
02-20-2007, 04:55 PM
Could Marty be more suave and smooth about the discussing the negatives. Yea. Does his view of what is negative neccesarly jive with reality (ie Dunn's K's). No. But would he be doing his job as "face of the franchise" if he never said anything bad about the on-field product? Never in a million years.

There's a mile of difference between blowing sunshine up everyone's collective rears 24/7 about everything Cincinnati Reds and going out to the offseason media and slamming the way one of the biggest name-players (or any player, for that matter) on the team plays the game.

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 04:57 PM
Assumes?

He is the Broadcasting face of the franchise, he is the 1st entry on page 500 of the Reds Media Guide underneath Reds on the Airwaves, where they mention his tenure, his HOF entry and his awards. He does call ins to XM, ESPN, FOX and other outlets, he is the "Voice of the Reds" and has been for over 3 decades.

He's also known for saying, "I was here before you and will be here after you are gone" to several players.

Sounds to me like he's bigger then just a play by play man in the clubs (and his) eyes

True, when many people think Reds they think Marty B. Being around 30 years, and being so good will do that.

Then again, my season ticket package last year had pictures of all the players, not Marty.

All of the billboards around town (what few of them I see) all have players pictures, not Martys.

When I go to reds.com I see pictures of players, coaches and on field activities.

When I go to the Reds hall of fame I see lots of exibits about Reds players.

When I go to GABP I see statues out front of former past great players.

When I go to the Reds merchasdise outlets at GABP I see a lot of jersey's, hats and other apparel with players names (past and present) on them.

Marty is one of their marketing tools, indeed. Is he the only one, far from it. Is he the one the Reds have chosen to invest all of their effort in? Don't know that any of us know that answer.

pedro
02-20-2007, 05:01 PM
It's never good for an employee to denigrate a company's assets. never.

westofyou
02-20-2007, 05:03 PM
It's never good for an employee to denigrate a company's assets. never.

Unless he has a Bobblehead I guess

http://reds.enquirer.com/nuxhall/martybobble.jpg

Yachtzee
02-20-2007, 05:05 PM
Marge Schott's record as owner speaks for herself. During her reign as owner only Ted Turner won more games in the NL. She was a little strange no doubt, but being a Reds fan was a lot more enjoyable winning with her as owner.

Marge's victory was rather pyrrhic in nature. In the early years she was able to live off of Bob Howsam's rebuilding of the farm system. But during her drive to get a World Series, she destroyed that farm system to the degree that Jim Bowden pretty much relied on smoke and mirrors (and getting lucky gambling on pitching rehab projects) to keep the team competitive into the 90s. And lets not forget such brilliant moves as letting Davey Johnson go (I've heard rumors it was because he lived with his wife before they were married) in favor of Ray Knight (rumored to be because she liked his wife, Nancy Lopez).

I'd say the success of the franchise during her reign was more a tribute to the baseball minds working within the skewed financial structure she mandated. Sure she'd let them go out and make a trade for a pitcher at the trade deadline if the team was close, but what good would that do when she wasn't putting any money into scouting and development? I imagine they could have won a few more WS if Marge hadn't starved the farm system of cash and chased off the system's top talent evaluators, coaches and minor league instructors. Team Clark, who knows a thing or two, has said that the Reds' philosophy at the farm level is to give the job to the lowest bidder. I think that philosophy started with one Marge Unnewehr Schott. Couple that with her behavior when the ballot initiative for the new stadiums came up and it's likely that, had MLB not forced her out, we could be looking at the Charlotte/Las Vegas/Portland Reds.

In my mind, Marge's statement about scouts, something to the effect of "All they do is get paid to watch ballgames," is right up there with "I'd rather have hustle than home runs" as a sign that someone doesn't have a complete grasp on what it takes to run a successful ball club in the long run.

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 05:08 PM
It's never good for an employee to denigrate a company's assets. never.

I guess that's just a fundamental dissagreement that I have with most folks on this subject. I have zero respect for company men who never have a bad thing to say about their company/product.

Marty' wrong about Dunn's value, there I agree with you. But that's a totally different subject than he should never be negative about the team. Especially when the fans can clearly see/hear that they are blowing up durring a given game/or season.

gonelong
02-20-2007, 05:09 PM
True, when many people think Reds they think Marty B. Being around 30 years, and being so good will do that.

Then again, my season ticket package last year had pictures of all the players, not Marty.

All of the billboards around town (what few of them I see) all have players pictures, not Martys.

When I go to reds.com I see pictures of players, coaches and on field activities.

When I go to the Reds hall of fame I see lots of exibits about Reds players.

When I go to GABP I see statues out front of former past great players.

When I go to the Reds merchasdise outlets at GABP I see a lot of jersey's, hats and other apparel with players names (past and present) on them.

Marty is one of their marketing tools, indeed. Is he the only one, far from it. Is he the one the Reds have chosen to invest all of their effort in? Don't know that any of us know that answer.

How many games a year do you listen to on the Radio?

GL

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 05:11 PM
How many games a year do you listen to on the Radio?

GL

I couldn't put a number on it, other than to say, "most of them".

pedro
02-20-2007, 05:14 PM
I guess that's just a fundamental dissagreement that I have with most folks on this subject. I have zero respect for company men who never have a bad thing to say about their company/product.

Marty' wrong about Dunn's value, there I agree with you. But that's a totally different subject than he should never be negative about the team. Especially when the fans can clearly see/hear that they are blowing up durring a given game/or season.

No one is asking Marty to blow sunshine up the players skirts. OTOH, it's clearly evident to me that Marty personalizes his dislike of certain players in a way that no other announcer I have ever heard does. And I listen to a lot of other announcers. Marty traffics in vindictive diatribes. You may find it it charming and harmless, but I certainly don't.

gonelong
02-20-2007, 05:16 PM
I couldn't put a number on it, other than to say, "most of them".

How many pictures of the players are you looking at during that time?
How many billboards are you seeing during that time?
How many players exhibits are you looking at during that time?
Can you see the players statues out front of GABP?
Can you see the Reds merchasdise outlets at GABP? The jersey's, hats and other apparel with players names (past and present) on them?

At that point in time, for most people listening to the game, Marty is it. Marty is the marketing.

Now ask yourself, how many games do you listen to vs. watching on TV vs. attending?

Which single entity of those you listed occupies your conciousness during the season. Likely 10s of hours apiece vs. the 100s of hours listenting to Marty.

GL

RANDY IN INDY
02-20-2007, 05:23 PM
Heard Marty on Charlie Steiner's show on XM radio this afternoon. He was giving his take on the Griffey situation and that he thought it was best for the team if Jr. was in right field on Opening Day. They talked about Jr. saying that he would move willingly if the team found someone that he felt was better at the position, and to that, Marty said that Jr. was an employee of the Reds and that if they told him he needed to move, he should move. Marty said it would be no different if Reds management came to him and told him that they wanted him to not be quite so "frank" with his comments on the air. He said he would have a choice at that point. Do what they say or find another job. I don't think management has a problem with Marty's style. When and if they ever do, we will know about it.

flyer85
02-20-2007, 05:23 PM
these threads just seem to go on ... an on ... :sleep:

:D

westofyou
02-20-2007, 05:28 PM
Heard Marty on Charlie Steiner's show on XM radio this afternoon.

Couldn't be Marty Brennamen, he's just a Play by Play guy.


Marty said it would be no different if Reds management came to him and told him that they wanted him to not be quite so "frank" with his comments on the air. Unless of course it was Dick Wagner doing the asking.

pedro
02-20-2007, 05:29 PM
Heard Marty on Charlie Steiner's show on XM radio this afternoon. He was giving his take on the Griffey situation and that he thought it was best for the team if Jr. was in right field on Opening Day. They talked about Jr. saying that he would move willingly if the team found someone that he felt was better at the position, and to that, Marty said that Jr. was an employee of the Reds and that if they told him he needed to move, he should move. Marty said it would be no different if Reds management came to him and told him that they wanted him to not be quite so "frank" with his comments on the air. He said he would have a choice at that point. Do what they say or find another job. I don't think management has a problem with Marty's style. When and if they ever do, we will know about it.

That's interesting Randy. I would find it the height of irony, although not uncharacteristic, if Marty were to tell the listeners that while he thought Dunn was a lazy oaf who struck out too much, management had asked him not to say so on the air.

Yachtzee
02-20-2007, 05:30 PM
Somehow if the title of the thread was "Marty Brennaman slams Juan Castro...again", I don't think we'd be up to 189 responces. So yea, that he choose to rip on Dunn, who is feircely protected by most of RZ, most certinally plays a role in the issue.

I don't think you'd ever see such a threat title in Redszone because I think that on Marty's "Naughty or Nice" list, Castro is with Rich Aurilia on the "Nice" list. This topic comes up so often because Marty chooses to express his disdain of certain players in a manner that some of us find to be childish such that it detracts from our enjoyment of our favorite team. I can't help it if Dunn is Marty's favorite topic. It's not like people are baiting Marty into talking about Dunn. He just does it whenever he gets a chance. If you don't have a problem with Marty, who has played as much professional baseball as I have, criticising Dunn and saying he's "just about given up on him," then why should Marty be free of criticism of his own work?

As I've said before, it's one thing to "call it like it is." It's another to use your media access to grind your axes against certain players you don't like. I don't like it even when he may be right about the person he's talking about. It's just that in this case, when it comes down to home runs vs. hustle, he is so very wrong.

RANDY IN INDY
02-20-2007, 05:50 PM
Couldn't be Marty Brennamen, he's just a Play by Play guy.

Unless of course it was Dick Wagner doing the asking.

And if I remember right, Dick Carlson was added to the booth with Marty and Joe. Neither was any too happy about the situation, but I believe that Marty and Wagner came to an understanding, Carlson was removed, and Marty held his tongue to a greater degree.

westofyou
02-20-2007, 06:04 PM
And if I remember right, Dick Carlson was added to the booth with Marty and Joe. Neither was any too happy about the situation, but I believe that Marty and Wagner came to an understanding, Carlson was removed, and Marty held his tongue to a greater degree.

Wagner not only was bad GM at the Major League level but he was the hatchet man in the organization, not much love can be gathered from that position over the years.

That said, he was a big part of the success of the Reds in the 70's and unbeknown to most he was also the Minor League Executive of the year way back in 1957. Odd duck he was, his recent death and the quiet surrounding it speaks loudly of the legacy he left. It's amazing how a few bad years can bring down a lifetime of work... but then again as Reds fan we've seen first hand how one bad decade can muss up the hard work the the 617 Inc. group put in during the 70's.

registerthis
02-20-2007, 06:28 PM
My guess is, when the Reds begin regularly fielding competitive teams, and begin regularly challenging for playoff berths, what marty does--or does not--think about Adam Dunn won't be viewed with such grave consequence on here.

That being said, I might be able to offer a bit of perspective. Last year, the Nationals were bad. Not just bad, but great-googily-moogily awful. They had no rotation to speak of, the offense, for the most part, was tanking, the bullpen couldn't hold a lead...in short, there really wasn't much of a reasont oc ome watch the club, except for two things: one, it's baseball--and some people (like myself) are content watching a game in a vacuum, with no regards to any consequence the game might have beyond that immediate moment. Secondly, Alfonso Soriano. Soriano was one of the precious few bright spots on the Nats last year, and the Nationals exploited him for all they could. There were Soriano billboards up around DC, Soriano bobbleheads, Soriano banners and posters throughout RFK, Soriano on the Washington Post newspaper stands, etc. And, perhaps most noticeably, he was trated like a star by the team's broadcasters.

In spite of his much-publicized fielding mishaps, in spite of his occasional baserunning blunders, in spite of his (yes) strikeouts--the Nationals announcers realized what an exceptional year he was having, and how he himself was one of the few reasons for DC sports fans to come out to the ballpark. They marketed the heck out of Soriano, and made sure that every single person in DC--whether baseball fan or not--realized what an exceptional talent he was.

Now, I realize the comparisons between CIncinnati and DC aren't perfect, or that Soriano is a different player than Dunn, and the Reds are not the Nationals. But I think the greater point to take away from this is that every facet of the Nationals organization realized what a talent Soriano was and marketed him to the public as such. With the kind of year the Nats had, it would have been easy to begin jumping on Soriano as well. But that didn't happen.

Everyone knows that Dunn has his flaws, and I agree that at times he can be a maddeningly frustrating player. But he is also an exceptional talent, the type that does not grace the Cincinnati dugout that frequently. And it would be nice if the Reds--including Marty Brennamen--understood and appreciated that point.

westofyou
02-20-2007, 06:32 PM
the Nationals announcers

Tom Patiorik is scrapping the absolute bottom of the barrel when looking at MLB's broadcasting offerings, memories of his constant use of the expression "Yeah" wakes me in the middle of the night at times.

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 08:01 PM
My guess is, when the Reds begin regularly fielding competitive teams, and begin regularly challenging for playoff berths, what marty does--or does not--think about Adam Dunn won't be viewed with such grave consequence on here.

And it would be nice if the Reds--including Marty Brennamen--understood and appreciated that point.

Well, in the midst of all the back and forth earlier I suddenly heard water running in the basement. Since we don't have a waterfall down here I knew I had problems. We had a heavy rain suddenly melting a good 6+ inches of snow and ice on the roof, and everything in the yard, and it overran the gutters, drains and filled a window well. Several hours of work later I think we have a handle on it.

Anyway, I agree Reg. Once the Reds are back to winning ways I think the "Marty situation" will blow over.

I think the Reds appreicate the value of Dunn. Or else they would traded him already. Marty...I think he just lets his frustration, stemming from an old-school mindset get the better of him.

gonelong
02-20-2007, 08:59 PM
Secondly, Alfonso Soriano. Soriano was one of the precious few bright spots on the Nats last year, and the Nationals exploited him for all they could. There were Soriano billboards up around DC, Soriano bobbleheads, Soriano banners and posters throughout RFK, Soriano on the Washington Post newspaper stands, etc. And, perhaps most noticeably, he was trated like a star by the team's broadcasters.


Edwin Encarnacion ought to be treated as an up and comer in Cincy. He ought to be one of the reasons to come out and see the Reds and the Reds should be stressing this.

Instead he has been labeled as a defensive liability already. He is someone the Reds could be building a cornerstone marketing campaign around. Win, lose, or draw it ought to be exciting to watch this kid play this year and the fans should be absolutely beside themselves with anticipation of the season this kid is going to put up.

Instead we have a cadre of fans who are wondering if he can play LF or 1B because of his defensive issues.

GL

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 09:21 PM
Which single entity of those you listed occupies your conciousness during the season. Likely 10s of hours apiece vs. the 100's of hours listenting to Marty. GL

So Marty is the one and only marketing tool of the Reds? Hogwash. You yourself just posted that the Reds should be pushing EE to the fore. Besides winning, I think it would be infinatley more effective in building fan excitement to build around the players than fret over what Marty has or hasn't said.

Casual fans aren't likely to be listening to 10 hours of Reds on radio, let alone 100's. So if you pull all the right strings and get Marty to say what you want him to say, how many purely casual fans are you really reaching? For the most part you will be preaching to the converted. It totally misses the real issue; winning. Building a marketing effort around what people go to the ballpark to see, the players, makes far more sense than trying to turn Marty into some PT Barnam charicter for the Reds.

Ltlabner
02-20-2007, 09:30 PM
Couldn't be Marty Brennamen, he's just a Play by Play guy.

Sigh....Of course he's more than a play-by-play guy. People think Reds they think Marty.

They also think Bench, Morgan, Parez, Rose, Davis, Sabo, Soto, Klu, Dunn, Jr, and on and on. They think Marge and her lunicy. Parker. Nolen. They think opening day. They think Big Red Machine. They think Frank Robinson. Unfortunatley, right now, they also think "crappy team".

The idea that Marty is the one and only marketing tool, or even the best marketing tool, of the Reds is just plan wrong, IMO.

westofyou
02-20-2007, 09:37 PM
They also think Bench, Morgan, Parez, Rose, Davis, Sabo, Soto, Klu, Dunn, Jr, and on and on. They think Marge and her lunicy. Parker. Nolen. They think opening day. They think Big Red Machine. They think Frank Robinson. Unfortunatley, right now, they also think "crappy team".

Unfortunately Marty is the only guy amongst them who has a microphone on when he clocks in to be a Reds memory.

Cedric
02-20-2007, 10:32 PM
Are the fans dissatisfied because Marty rips on Bowden/Dunn?

Or beacuse the Reds haven't won crap since the turn of the century?

It's more Marty. He is the emperor of Cincinnati and he rules over everyone that listens him. Unless that person is on Redszone and smart enough to avoid his evil brainwashing.

Luckily we have some of those geniuses on this site.

Everyone else is just a baseball idiot.

edabbs44
02-20-2007, 10:45 PM
I'm sick of the Marty bashing on this board.:)

Dom Heffner
02-20-2007, 10:49 PM
I don't think it's of grave consequence- I just want the guy who does the play by play and the commentary to be right on the obvious items. To harp on Dunn about hustling out to his position shows he doesn't have much of a clue.

What good does watching 162 ballgames a year do if you can't interpret basic stats?

pedro
02-20-2007, 11:12 PM
I'm sick of the Marty bashing on this board.

Nobody's bashing Marty. They're just "telling it like it is".

westofyou
02-20-2007, 11:26 PM
Nobody's bashing Marty. They're just "telling it like it is".

Funny how a little distaste for the kool aid Marty pours causes so many to feel the need to insult those who don't care for it.

Cedric
02-20-2007, 11:30 PM
Funny how a little distaste for the kool aid Marty pours causes so many to feel the need to insult those who don't care for it.

You insult people with every smartass, condescending remark you make. This happens almost daily. I wouldn't act above it.

I'm sorry I stooped.

pedro
02-21-2007, 12:05 AM
You insult people with every smartass, condescending remark you make. This happens almost daily. I wouldn't act above it.

I'm sorry I stooped.

Your remorse is obvious.

Ltlabner
02-21-2007, 07:02 AM
Funny how a little distaste for the kool aid Marty pours causes so many to feel the need to insult those who don't care for it.

Glad to know I'm only drinking kool-aide and not comming to my opinions on my own because I'm not wringing my hands over all of Marty's horrific faults.

But I know, it's only the "pro-Marty" camp that hurls insults.

:rolleyes:

RANDY IN INDY
02-21-2007, 07:04 AM
Personally, I think Marty would fit right in here at Redszone.:laugh:

Like him or not, he sparks a lot of conversation about Reds baseball and I don't think that is a bad thing, even if it does go against the grain and beliefs of some here at Redszone. I like Marty. I don't always agree with him, but I surely will take him every single day over the "vanilla" that exists in a lot of the MLB teams broadcast booths. I like his style.

RedFanAlways1966
02-21-2007, 09:05 AM
Personally, I think Marty would fit right in here at Redszone.:laugh:

I wonder how long (or if he ever could) it would take for him to get 200 rep points? Perhaps he'd have negative points if he started here with anti-Dunn threads about running to-and-from his LF position?!?! Perhaps his top-5 favorite Elvis songs thread or his ask your tomato-growing-questions thread in the non-BB forum would earn him some points. It sure would be interesting.

:)

big boy
02-21-2007, 10:22 AM
Got some data for that?

Your assertion is on the same ground as the other side.

Any person selling something in this world would prefer that the spokesmen for the product being sold focus on the positives instead of the negatives, which we all know is not the approach that Marty takes.

I know what I'm buying when I listen to Marty and it's not how much so and so stinks or is overrated, that's just a stream from the privy to my drinking water and I find it does nothing to enhance the product.

Do you believe that the attendance would improve if George Grande was the voice of the Reds? If so, by how much?

TRF
02-21-2007, 10:25 AM
Glad to know I'm only drinking kool-aide and not comming to my opinions on my own because I'm not wringing my hands over all of Marty's horrific faults.

But I know, it's only the "pro-Marty" camp that hurls insults.

:rolleyes:

The difference being your promotion of the Reds extends to you friends and acquaintances. Marty's reach is significantly wider.

But it isn't just the constant discussion of his golf game. I can live with that. I can live with him discussing his dinners too. What I can't abide is the disgust in his voice when he derides one of the BEST players on the team he works for simply because he doesn't understand his value. He misrepresents Adam Dunn to a general public that is likely not as informed as it could be. Note that I didn't say SHOULD be. Casual fans drive this game. And Marty is telling the casual fan that he has given up on Dunn, and that he would trade him. He infers over and over how he'd rather have a 40+ year old in Steve Finley who by the way is no where even close to being the offensive force that Adam Dunn is.

I'm all for pointing out a players faults. I just don't think Marty understands Dunn's assets, and he ascribes faults that do not exist.

membengal
02-21-2007, 10:37 AM
Do you believe that the attendance would improve if George Grande was the voice of the Reds? If so, by how much?

Well, Cardinals fans would be more likely to come. George always will luv him some Cardinals...

BRM
02-21-2007, 10:45 AM
I don't really know if Marty hurts attendance or not. However, I can't imagine how it would not help attendance at least a little if he gushed with excitement over the young exciting players on the squad. If he pimped EE, Phillips, Dunn, Harang, Coffey, Bailey, etc...maybe, just maybe, he gets more people interested in coming to the park. I don't know. It certainly wouldn't hurt though.

I can't see how telling people Dunn is a lazy oaf and EE can't play defense gets anyone excited to come to the park. Add in the fact that the Reds aren't all that good as a team and some people will just stay home. The trick is to get folks to come out when the team is rebuilding or just bad. Get folks excited to come out and watch the young kids anyway and look to the future.

gonelong
02-21-2007, 01:53 PM
So Marty is the one and only marketing tool of the Reds?

No, thats why I listed the others and then compared the 10's of hours they influence us vs. the 100's of hours Marty does.

You yourself said you listen to most of the games. That means you spend 100's of hours with Marty. You likely spend a fraction of that seeing billboards, etc.

Who is the biggest marketing influence from the Reds on you? Marty.

I grew up 100+ miles from Cincy. Most of the people in our area are Reds fans. Most of them listen to darn near all the games. I'd say most of those same people only attend 1 or 2 games a year. I know of 100's of people that fit this description, if not 1000's.

GL

Yachtzee
02-21-2007, 02:03 PM
Let's put it this way. I never lived in Cincinnati. The closest I've gotten to living there was when my parents rented an apartment in Tipp City when I was 2. I grew up following the Reds because my dad liked them and he would drive around with me in the car on the weekends, listening to Reds' games on a staticky WLW because he couldn't get the games on the radio in the house. This was during the BRM era and I was pretty young, but I don't recall Marty being such a pill when it came to players on the team. My two favorite players were Johnny Bench and George Foster. As I got a little older, I started to really get into baseball and the Reds in particular. Then we moved to the Akron area. At that point my only access to Reds baseball was through newspapers, This Week in Baseball, the occassional game of the week, and games on the radio when we could get it in. I started really paying attention in '80, when I was 9, and started following them religiously in '81, checking box scores every day, making a note of where certain Reds might be in relation to the league leaders. The strike was awful, and the decision to go with a "split season" format seemed like the greatest injustice ever. I loved listening to the games on the radio, but not because I was listenting to some HOF broadcaster who "told it like it was." I listened because I loved the Reds and thought they were the greatest team ever, or at least had the chance to be so.

Then, from '82-'84 the Reds were terrible, but I still followed them religiously. I knew every player and all the important facts about them. When we played wiffle ball in my backyard, I would pretend to be the Reds and would bat left or right-handed based on who was "up" in the lineup. I was so naive I thought every player on that team had the chance to be great. I believed that guys like Paul Householder or Duane Walker could be great ballplayers. I still listened when I could, I didn't have the day-to-day access to Marty's broadcasts to know if he slagged the players on those teams with the same level of disgust in his voice like he does now. If he was the same way back then as he is now, I don't know if I would be much of a Reds fan today, or even a baseball fan. When you're a kid and the person who is your sole outlet for live baseball involving your favorite team is constantly deriding the players on that team, would you want to listen to it? If you're a kid and your favorite player is Adam Dunn, is it going to make you want to listen to more games when that old guy on the radio keeps telling how awful he is?

I don't know, maybe he was going in the direction he is now when Dick Wagner introduced another person into the booth to rein Marty back in. Maby Bob Castellini brought in Thom to see if it causes Marty to tone it down a bit.

M2
02-21-2007, 02:07 PM
Here's my question, can anyone name another team broadcaster in any sport that regularly takes digs at the players on the team?

I've lived in multiple media markets in my lifetime. I've heard and seen plenty of broadcasts and I've never encountered anyone remotely like Marty. I guess that makes him unique, but my reaction to him as someone who's got no historical connection with the guy is, "Wow, that guy's a complete (insert phallic reference here)."

Obviously there's those who don't mind, but it is abnormal behavior.

M2
02-21-2007, 02:12 PM
If he was the same way back then as he is now, I don't know if I would be much of a Reds fan today, or even a baseball fan. When you're a kid and the person who is your sole outlet for live baseball involving your favorite team is constantly deriding the players on that team, would you want to listen to it? If you're a kid and your favorite player is Adam Dunn, is it going to make you want to listen to more games when that old guy on the radio keeps telling how awful he is?

Great post, particularly this section.

RANDY IN INDY
02-21-2007, 02:15 PM
I respect a lot of you guys, but I honestly don't think that Marty's radio persona is keeping anyone away from the ballpark. There are some folks whose opinions might be influenced by Marty's opinions, but I really don't think it's going to keep someone from buying a ticket to see a game.

Roy Tucker
02-21-2007, 02:34 PM
I respect a lot of you guys, but I honestly don't think that Marty's radio persona is keeping anyone away from the ballpark. There are some folks whose opinions might be influenced by Marty's opinions, but I really don't think it's going to keep someone from buying a ticket to see a game.

My only comment here is that he may not be keeping people away, but the way he sometimes creates a somewhat poisonous aura around a ballplayer sure doesn't help.

The great unwashed masses of Reds fans do listen to what Marty says and take it to heart. I about got killed by a 15 yr. old niece when debating the relative merits of Sean Casey vs. Adam Dunn and it was verbatim Marty-speak. They listen to what he says and take it as The Truth.

Us folk here in RedsZone really are the lunatic fringe of Reds fans and purt near close to outside the 3.5 sigma of the bell-shaped curve of Reds fans.

But besides his penchant for getting the goo about certain players, I love the way Marty does a game and think he is as relevant as he ever was.

TRF
02-21-2007, 02:35 PM
I respect a lot of you guys, but I honestly don't think that Marty's radio persona is keeping anyone away from the ballpark. There are some folks whose opinions might be influenced by Marty's opinions, but I really don't think it's going to keep someone from buying a ticket to see a game.

agreed kind of. I think it keeps people from buying as many tickets as they might otherwise. Certainly Marty is only part of the problem. The overall marketing of the reds is very weak. The thing about Marty is he isn't part of the solution.

Marty can call the great play like few others can.

The problem is the game isn't always great plays. His position demands that he help market the team, and he has no clue how to do that because he doesn't understand the game as it is, just as he sees it.

His view of the game is flawed. His view of the players is skewed by visions of legends he stood next to. He got to walk with baseball greatness, but never understood what made them great.

Caveat Emperor
02-21-2007, 02:40 PM
If you're a kid and your favorite player is Adam Dunn, is it going to make you want to listen to more games when that old guy on the radio keeps telling how awful he is?

I was always tall growing up. When I was playing little league, I was already over 6' tall and pushing into the 6'2-6'3 range. I'd have absolutely idolized a tall player like Adam Dunn growing up, especially as I got frustrated about batting cages that threw nothing but pitches at my knees and ankles and strike zones that seemed to stretch for miles on my frame.

I don't know what impact it would have for me, as a kid, listening to an announcer smack my favorite player into the ground. I don't know that such a player would ever become my favorite player if I had to go to bed each night listening to his play be derrided and his effort questioned.

It's little things like that -- a kid sitting at home in a ballcap that wants to find a player to emulate. Someone to model his batting stance off or an at-bat ritual to copy. Who knows if it has an impact, but why not just err on the side of caution and not go there? The marginal benefit of "telling it like it is" surely isn't worth the potential detriment of losing fan interest, even if it is only a minute amount lost.

Ltlabner
02-21-2007, 02:56 PM
I grew up 100+ miles from Cincy. Most of the people in our area are Reds fans. Most of them listen to darn near all the games. I'd say most of those same people only attend 1 or 2 games a year. I know of 100's of people that fit this description, if not 1000's. GL

But the key question, central to this discussion, is whether those fans would see 3 or 4 games a year instead of 1 or 2 if Marty was less critical of Dunn, EE, and more upbeat about the Reds in general.

I don't believe they would. They would hear Marty's pratter, look at the standings and think to themselves, "the team still sucks, I'd rather go to Kings Island".

Additionally, because Marty has the most exposure via radio does not imply that he is the best means by which to market the team. Also, we should consider are as many kids today listening to Reds on Radio as we all seemed to do back in the 70's? Matt700wlw could help us with that one. If the majority of the listeners are Grandmas who've listend for years, they likely aren't the best "target market" for using Marty as a marketing tool.

Chip R
02-21-2007, 03:01 PM
Personally, I think Marty would fit right in here at Redszone.:laugh:

Oh, I think he would too but he'd have to realize he isn't king of RedsZone. He'd also probably learn the hard way that he would have to change the way he disagrees with someone. If he started calling names when someone would disagree with him, he'd be out of here so quick, it'd make his head spin. But if he could control himself, he would contribute a great deal.

But I don't think it's a good idea for people like Marty - or Curt Schilling - to post openly on message boards.

Ltlabner
02-21-2007, 03:02 PM
When you're a kid and the person who is your sole outlet for live baseball involving your favorite team is constantly deriding the players on that team, would you want to listen to it? If you're a kid and your favorite player is Adam Dunn, is it going to make you want to listen to more games when that old guy on the radio keeps telling how awful he is?

But then when I go to GABP I see a flood of young kids in Dunn shirts. How do we jive that up to the idea Marty is quelling a generation of youngsters from likeing Dunn?

Seems to me that kids (1) likely don't pick up on the derision Marty has towards Dunn (2) don't have the attention span to obscess over it like we do.

With the advent of the internet, more extensive TV coverage, etc do as many kids rely on 700wlw for their Reds fix as before? I think the bigger issue is what effect (if any) does Marty have on the adults listening, especially those with disposable income who are likely to take in a ball game.

TRF
02-21-2007, 03:06 PM
But the key question, central to this discussion, is whether those fans would see 3 or 4 games a year instead of 1 or 2 if Marty was less critical of Dunn, EE, and more upbeat about the Reds in general.

I don't believe they would. They would hear Marty's pratter, look at the standings and think to themselves, "the team still sucks, I'd rather go to Kings Island".

Additionally, because Marty has the most exposure via radio does not imply that he is the best means by which to market the team. Also, we should consider are as many kids today listening to Reds on Radio as we all seemed to do back in the 70's? Matt700wlw could help us with that one. If the majority of the listeners are Grandmas who've listend for years, they likely aren't the best "target market" for using Marty as a marketing tool.

This is too black and white an answer.

So if Marty starts talking about Dunn as someone that could end up as one of the greatest HR hitters of all time, and kids hear that, you don't think someone's parent is going to get pestered to take the kids to a game?

RANDY IN INDY
02-21-2007, 03:08 PM
But then when I go to GABP I see a flood of young kids in Dunn shirts. How do we jive that up to the idea Marty is quelling a generation of youngsters from likeing Dunn?

Seems to me that kids (1) likely don't pick up on the derision Marty has towards Dunn (2) don't have the attention span to obscess over it like we do.

With the advent of the internet, more extensive TV coverage, etc do as many kids rely on 700wlw for their Reds fix as before? I think the bigger issue is what effect (if any) does Marty have on the adults listening, especially those with disposable income who are likely to take in a ball game.

Very little.

People are going to like the players that they like, regardless of Marty, and they don't need Marty telling them anything to get a case of the "goo." There are plenty of idiots who are thinking for themselves, throwing change at Ken Griffey Jr. at the ballgames.

pedro
02-21-2007, 03:09 PM
You can go on and on and on saying that it doesn't matter Ltlabner. And maybe you're right. Regardless, that doesn't excuse his vindictive, nasty demeanor. He's the only announcer I've ever heard that does it and in my book it's both annoying and inexcusable.

IndyPhils
02-21-2007, 03:12 PM
The golden tones of the hall of famer regarding Adam Dunn:

"I'm tired of hearing people say he'll give you forty homers and drive in a hundred runs every year. First of all, he didn't drive in 100 runs last year. The most overrated stat in baseball is the damn home run. Give me a guy that'll run to his position and run off the field. More often than not, he walks to his position and walks off the field. Give me a guy that shows some life out there. His approach to hitting is the same if the count is 0-0 or 3-2. We all know his knowledge of the strike zone because he walks over a hundred times a year."

RBI is an overrated stat. It doesn't capture accurately how productive a player is when he actually played. OPS is a much better measurement or OPS+.

RBI is primarily a team based stat. Obviously, teams that score a lot of runs will have a lot of guys with rbi because of the more opportunities for RBI. That's why On Base Percentage is so important. Not making outs is the single most important thing in the game of baseball. Great player on a bad team or in the wrong part of the lineup will not get RBI's. Lack of opportunity.

Soriano last year 46 HR 95 RBI, Washington stubbornly bated him leadoff most of the year. Despite his relatively poor On base skills .351. Even with a career high in walks by more than double.


What's better a team with 1.000 OBP or 1.000 SLG?

Old baseball is maddening for it's inaccuracies. Brennamen is playing on cliches.

BLEEDS
02-21-2007, 03:12 PM
Once they started talking about batting Dunn 6th and or 9th, I turned it off the second I got out of the shower. Look, I dont like Dunn a whole lot as a player. He frustrates me more than any player I have ever seen. His batting average drives me insane. That said, his on base percentage is way to good to be hitting him 6th or 9th. In all honestly, bat him 3rd, let Edwin hit behind him, then have Griffey behind Edwin. I think that everyone benefits from that line up.

Griff will bat 3rd or 4th as long as he can get himself to the on-deck circle.

What you don't want is to put EE batting 4th SIMPLY because you think you need to break up the lefty-lefty hitters.

Batting Order should be:

CF - Freel
2B - Phillips
LF - Dunner
RF - Griff
3B - EE
C - Ross
1B - Hattenberg/Conine/
SS - Gonzo


Not too bad. Problem is with those last two spots. We lost ~40 HRs there between Kearns and Lopez - DON"T GET ME WRONG, I won't miss Lopie, his errors caused us to break even with his offense.

Phillips, EE, and Ross make up for it some, but we need a reliable 25/85-95 guy if we want to compete with the Big Boys in the Division, esp. considering our current pitching situation. In theory, that should be an OF-er and we put Dunn at 1B, where he belongs. If Joey Votto is the future, then put him in there next year.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ltlabner
02-21-2007, 03:13 PM
This is too black and white an answer.

So if Marty starts talking about Dunn as someone that could end up as one of the greatest HR hitters of all time, and kids hear that, you don't think someone's parent is going to get pestered to take the kids to a game?

Actually, I think it's really that simple. The casual fan wants to see winning baseball. When they plunk down their wad of dough for the family to take in a game they want to know they are going to see a good game. They could give a witt about who's got the best VORP, who's projected to be the next HOF player or if Dunn's walks agument his OPS. They want to see a great game. Period. If they feal their investment isn't going to be rewarded at GABP they are going to go elsewhere.

The second part is more of a grey area. I guess if Marty can manufacture some excitement the kids would latch on to that...yea, you are probably right there. But I think kids generally already do have that excitement about Dunn. Take a survey of the city I'd be willing to bet Dunn's name is the one you'd hear the most if you asked young kids. Go to the park and see how many "Get'R Dunn" shirts are walking around on youngsters.

BRM
02-21-2007, 03:13 PM
You can go on and on and on saying that it doesn't matter Ltlabner. And maybe you're right. Regardless, that doesn't excuse his vindictive, nasty demeanor. He's the only announcer I've ever heard that does it and in my book it's both annoying and inexcusable.

This is the point M2 brought up earlier in the thread. Does anyone know of any other team's PBP guy that derides their team's players like Marty does? I haven't listened to them all so I don't know. However, the ones I have listened to certainly have not talked that way.

Ltlabner
02-21-2007, 03:16 PM
You can go on and on and on saying that it doesn't matter Ltlabner. And maybe you're right. Regardless, that doesn't excuse his vindictive, nasty demeanor. He's the only announcer I've ever heard that does it and in my book it's both annoying and inexcusable.

Then the anwer is simple my friend, turn off the radio. When you see Marty's name in print put it on mental "ignore". Don't read the news story. Don't listen to the man. Don't read threads on RZ that have his name in them. You don't like him, which is your right and fine by me. But don't try to convice me that he's attila the hunn simply because you find him annoying.

IndyPhils
02-21-2007, 03:18 PM
The difference being your promotion of the Reds extends to you friends and acquaintances. Marty's reach is significantly wider.

But it isn't just the constant discussion of his golf game. I can live with that. I can live with him discussing his dinners too. What I can't abide is the disgust in his voice when he derides one of the BEST players on the team he works for simply because he doesn't understand his value. He misrepresents Adam Dunn to a general public that is likely not as informed as it could be. Note that I didn't say SHOULD be. Casual fans drive this game. And Marty is telling the casual fan that he has given up on Dunn, and that he would trade him. He infers over and over how he'd rather have a 40+ year old in Steve Finley who by the way is no where even close to being the offensive force that Adam Dunn is.

I'm all for pointing out a players faults. I just don't think Marty understands Dunn's assets, and he ascribes faults that do not exist.

Phillies did the same thing with Bobby Abreu (.922 career OPS). The media constantly dogged him about occasional lapses going back to the fence on balls. The fans picked this up and helped run him out of town. Calling him lazy for not looking like he was hustling. Abreu was smooth on the bases. It didn't look like he was hustling enough for some fans. But the guy flaout produced: Abreu career stats (http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/abreubo01.shtml)

pedro
02-21-2007, 03:19 PM
Then the anwer is simple my friend, turn off the radio. When you see Marty's name in print put it on mental "ignore". Don't listen to the man you find so repulsive. You don't like him, which is your right and fine by me. But don't try to convice me that he's attila the hunn simply because you find him annoying.

I do a lot of the time. But should Reds really want an announcer who is so divisive that he drives fans away? Because he does.