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dfs
02-21-2007, 10:14 AM
lifted from shawn's blog who lifted it from the reds....

"It goes: pitchers Matt Belisle, Bill Bray, Jared Burton, Todd Coffey, Rheal Cormier, Jon Coutlangus, Phil Dumatrait, Aaron Harang, Bobby Livingston, Kyle Lohse, Gary Majewski, Calvin Medlock, Eric Milton, Elizardo Ramirez, Kirk Saarloos, Brad Salmon, Brian Shackelford, and Mike Stanton.

No catchers.

Infield: Edwin Encarnacion, Jerry Gil, Alex Gonzalez, Jeff Keppinger, Joey Votto.

Outfield: Jeff Conine, Chris Denorfia, Chris Dickerson, Adam Dunn, Junior Griffey, Josh Hamilton, Norris Hopper."

I'm a bit shocked to see Ramirez on there. When he was sent down last year, did they manage to retroactivly claim is was injury rehab? The must have because that would have been his third season splitting time between the majors and minors. I was also fairly confident that Dumatrait has been on the 40 man roster in the minors for three years, but I've either been mistaken or some of that time must be considered injury rehab.

Of course the rule v guys are on there, but the reds can't send them down without either sending them back or offereing some other compensation.

It seems like Shackleford has been up and down forever, but it really has only been the last two years.

Anyway...it's an intersting list to start spring training with. The 25 man roster is far less jammed than I thought it was going to be.

BRM
02-21-2007, 10:27 AM
Is this supposed to be a list of players with minor league options left? If so, it can't be correct. Guys like Conine, Griffey, Milton, Stanton, etc... can't be sent down. At least not without clearing waivers first.

Tom Servo
02-21-2007, 10:37 AM
I thought Gil and Keppinger were acquired from the D'Backs and Royals respectively because they were out of options?

redsmetz
02-21-2007, 10:40 AM
I don't know about the rules for posting ESPN stuff, so here's a link to a Rob Neyer article on transactions:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/transanctionsprimer.html

BRM
02-21-2007, 10:44 AM
I thought Gil and Keppinger were acquired from the D'Backs and Royals respectively because they were out of options?

The Reds website has an article from when Gil was acquired and it says he is most definitely out of options. I thought Keppinger was in the same boat but I don't remember for sure.

MrCinatit
02-21-2007, 11:05 AM
Harang has options? Maybe another year in AAA will teach him some humility.



In Bizzaro World. Here, in the real world, on the other hand...no.

JaxRed
02-21-2007, 11:22 AM
Is this supposed to be a list of players with minor league options left? If so, it can't be correct. Guys like Conine, Griffey, Milton, Stanton, etc... can't be sent down. At least not without clearing waivers first.

Actually that's incorrect. Let's assume Griffey has never been sent to minors after he got send to majors. (which is probably the case).

He still has 3 option years available. But he can't be optioned because major leaguers with more than 5 years of service can refuse the optional assignment.

But if they accept, they are referred to as a voluntary option. It's happened at least once since I've been tracking this stuff.

BRM
02-21-2007, 11:25 AM
Actually that's incorrect. Let's assume Griffey has never been sent to minors after he got send to majors. (which is probably the case).

He still has 3 option years available. But he can't be optioned because major leaguers with more than 5 years of service can refuse the optional assignment.

But if they accept, they are referred to as a voluntary option. It's happened at least once since I've been tracking this stuff.

Thanks for clearing that up. So, I'd say they realistically can't be optioned. So the point I was attempting to make is still valid. None of those guys will accept a demotion to AAA.

dfs
02-21-2007, 01:51 PM
I don't know about the rules for posting ESPN stuff, so here's a link to a Rob Neyer article on transactions:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/transanctionsprimer.html

Thanks. After reading that I still don't see how the lizard can possibly still have options. He became a proffessional in 00. He's been on somebodies 40 man roster since 04. He spent part of 04, 05 and 06 in the majors and part of each of those three years in the minors. That should be his three option years. Somehow they must have been able to retroactively call that stint in Louisville injury rehab.

Not that I don't trust Shawn, but his list is indeed on the reds site in yesterday's spring training notebook. Keppinger is on there.

jmcclain19
02-22-2007, 01:07 AM
Thanks. After reading that I still don't see how the lizard can possibly still have options. He became a proffessional in 00. He's been on somebodies 40 man roster since 04. He spent part of 04, 05 and 06 in the majors and part of each of those three years in the minors. That should be his three option years. Somehow they must have been able to retroactively call that stint in Louisville injury rehab.

Not that I don't trust Shawn, but his list is indeed on the reds site in yesterday's spring training notebook. Keppinger is on there.

There is no way Elizardo has options left. Or Belisle.

That list is mostly bogus. The five year veteran rule (players with 5 years experience can't be assigned to the minors without their consent) also crosses out just about every veteran on that list (Dunn, Junior, Stanton, Gonzalez, etc).

mth123
02-22-2007, 06:03 AM
I agree with the others that this list is not credible. So, does anyone actually have a "list" showing player's names and options left? It seems that lifting names out of an article is dubious because its most likely the misguided compilation of writer. I'm sure that a list has to exist, but I can't find one.

redsmetz
02-22-2007, 06:08 AM
There is no way Elizardo has options left. Or Belisle.

That list is mostly bogus. The five year veteran rule (players with 5 years experience can't be assigned to the minors without their consent) also crosses out just about every veteran on that list (Dunn, Junior, Stanton, Gonzalez, etc).

I can't speak to the credibility of the list, nor whether Ramirez or Belisle have options, but I know I've seen lists previously that had veterans on them. They may have options left (such as the case of Griffey), but they're effectively unable to use them given the service time of the player and the fact that they would have to clear waivers (although many players clear waivers mid-season, even vets, so that might not be an issue). The truth seems to be that such an option is essentially unavailable given the circumstances.

For the purpose of actually making a real roster move, the list is much shorter to be sure.

JaxRed
02-22-2007, 07:10 AM
The players like Griffey if they accepted an voluntary optional assignment, do not have to pass waivers.

That said, they are not going anywhere....

dfs
02-22-2007, 11:14 AM
There is no way Elizardo has options left. Or Belisle.

That list is mostly bogus. The five year veteran rule (players with 5 years experience can't be assigned to the minors without their consent) also crosses out just about every veteran on that list (Dunn, Junior, Stanton, Gonzalez, etc).

The list is from the reds spring training notes. It's a list of guys with options. Not guys they can send down. So, I'm not too worried about the old guys that aren't going to go.

I can see how Belisle could have options left. He only has 3 years in the majors 03,05,06. He didn't spend any time in the minors in 05 and his time last year was injury re-hab. So his two burned option years would have been 03 and 04. It surprises me, but I can see it.

The one I can't see is the Lizard.

KySteveH
02-22-2007, 01:29 PM
The players like Griffey if they accepted an voluntary optional assignment, do not have to pass waivers.


According to the latest CBA, players with 3 years service time must pass through waivers in order to be optioned.

As for Elizardo, he doesn't qualify for a fourth option year (only players who have 0 days MLS get the 4th option year). I can't see where he would have options left.

camisadelgolf
02-22-2007, 02:11 PM
I've heard it said that if you spend an entire year on the 40-man roster, it counts as one of your option years, but if that's not true, then that would make Shawn's list accurate.

PuffyPig
02-22-2007, 02:51 PM
I've heard it said that if you spend an entire year on the 40-man roster, it counts as one of your option years, but if that's not true, then that would make Shawn's list accurate.

That's always been my understanding. It didn't really matter if you were actually sent to the minors or not.

Danny Serafini
02-22-2007, 02:54 PM
An option is only used if you get sent down. If you spend the entire year on the 25 man (and automatically on the 40 man as well) you don't use an option.

KySteveH
02-22-2007, 04:21 PM
As for Elizardo, he doesn't qualify for a fourth option year (only players who have 0 days MLS get the 4th option year). I can't see where he would have options left.

Then again, I'm not sure about the rules on the fourth option year. I'm starting to remember that the rule is the one about a player getting a 4th option if he has yet to have 5 full seasons (short season schedules don't count) in pro baseball. This would apply to Elizardo, because his first year in regular A ball was 03.

Who has Major League Rule 11 handy?

jmcclain19
02-22-2007, 07:55 PM
Then again, I'm not sure about the rules on the fourth option year. I'm starting to remember that the rule is the one about a player getting a 4th option if he has yet to have 5 full seasons (short season schedules don't count) in pro baseball. This would apply to Elizardo, because his first year in regular A ball was 03.

Who has Major League Rule 11 handy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_transactions

It's Wikipedia...so take it with a grain of salt


Options
If a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the active major league roster, he is said to be on optional assignment—his organization may freely move him between the major league club and the minor league club. If a player is on the 40-man roster and not the active 25 man roster for any part of more than three seasons, he is out of options and may not be assigned to the minors without first clearing waivers. If a major league player is ineligible for free agency and "has options" remaining, his team may option him to a minor league team without consequence. This is usually what is meant when players are "sent down" to the minors. Likewise, when a player on the 40-man roster is added to the active major league roster, he is "called up" to the majors.

....

Veterans' consent
If a player has 5 years of major-league service, he may not be assigned to a minor-league team without his consent, regardless of whether he has already been outrighted once, even if he clears waivers. If the player withholds consent, the team must either release him or keep him on the major league roster. In either case, the player must continue to be paid under the terms of his contract. If he is released and signs with a new team, his previous team must pay the difference in salary between the two contracts if the previous contract called for a greater salary.

KySteveH
02-22-2007, 10:16 PM
Right...so who has Major League Rule 11 handy. That's got the waiver rules, I'm pretty sure.