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Kc61
02-21-2007, 01:01 PM
There are a few open spots on the bench and bullpen. Wonder how it works out.

1. Deno v. Crosby. Not sure either will make the team if Hamilton stays, but assume that the Reds do want a backup outfielder who can play CF well. I am sure Redszone would vote for Denorfia hands down, and I probably agree. But Crosby hits lefty (better partner for Freel, a righty), has more experience, also at one time (not recently) hit for a high average in AAA.

2. Keppinger v. Bellhorn. Again, not sure Reds will keep two backup infielders since Freel can always play inf in emergency. (Castro is presumably a lock.) If two, Bellhorn much more experienced, more power. Keppinger seems more like Krivsky's type. Low strikeout guy. Throw Jerry Gil into the mix, perhaps, as well.

3. Moeller v. ? Does Moeller's value defensively (with Valentin primarily a pinch hitter) mean that Reds keep 3 catchers again and drop a different bench player? Could mean that all four of the above will be sent out.

4. Hamilton v. ? If Hamilton has even a half-way decent spring, he stays. Somebody else loses a slot because of it, unless there is a trade for Hamilton's rights. In that case he can go to AAA for awhile.

5. Salmon v. Ligtenberg v. Burton v. Meadows v. Shack. Assume that Bray, Coffey, Weathers, Stanton, Cormier, Belisle make the team in the pen. That leaves one bullpen spot. Majewski gets it if healthy. Big if. So one slot could be open. Could it be one of these five? Or somebody new from the outside? Or do the Reds keep EZ for the extra spot, to pitch long relief?

redsmetz
02-21-2007, 01:43 PM
Good questions and I think there will still be some player movement before the season starts. We've got a surplus of players and I think we should utlize that for getting some reasonably decent prospects - just my opinion.

Redhook
02-21-2007, 01:47 PM
There are a few open spots on the bench and bullpen. Wonder how it works out.

1. Deno v. Crosby. Not sure either will make the team if Hamilton stays, but assume that the Reds do want a backup outfielder who can play CF well. I am sure Redszone would vote for Denorfia hands down, and I probably agree. But Crosby hits lefty (better partner for Freel, a righty), has more experience, also at one time (not recently) hit for a high average in AAA.

2. Keppinger v. Bellhorn. Again, not sure Reds will keep two backup infielders since Freel can always play inf in emergency. (Castro is presumably a lock.) If two, Bellhorn much more experienced, more power. Keppinger seems more like Krivsky's type. Low strikeout guy. Throw Jerry Gil into the mix, perhaps, as well.

3. Moeller v. ? Does Moeller's value defensively (with Valentin primarily a pinch hitter) mean that Reds keep 3 catchers again and drop a different bench player? Could mean that all four of the above will be sent out.

4. Hamilton v. ? If Hamilton has even a half-way decent spring, he stays. Somebody else loses a slot because of it, unless there is a trade for Hamilton's rights. In that case he can go to AAA for awhile.

5. Salmon v. Ligtenberg v. Burton v. Meadows v. Shack. Assume that Bray, Coffey, Weathers, Stanton, Cormier, Belisle make the team in the pen. That leaves one bullpen spot. Majewski gets it if healthy. Big if. So one slot could be open. Could it be one of these five? Or somebody new from the outside? Or do the Reds keep EZ for the extra spot, to pitch long relief?

1) Deno. No contest.
2) Most likely neither will make a difference.
3) If Moeller makes the team we're in worse shape than I thought.
4) Looking forward to see how he does. Wily Mo Part Deux??
5) Cormier needs to be traded while Shack fills his spot as the left specialist. Hopefully, Ligtenberg pitches well this spring b/c he has some nice upside with good experience.

TRF
02-21-2007, 01:47 PM
I'd add:

EZ vs Saarloos vs Belisle vs Santos for the fifth starters spot. Saarloos probably has the edge, but not in talent. Santos is the darkhorse, but this spot should be EZ's to lose assuming he's healthy coming into camp.

BRM
02-21-2007, 01:52 PM
Question 1 shouldn't even be a question. Deno is hands down the better player and it's not even close IMO. I'm anxious to see what Hamilton can bring to the table.

Kc61
02-21-2007, 01:54 PM
I'd add:

EZ vs Saarloos vs Belisle vs Santos for the fifth starters spot. Saarloos probably has the edge, but not in talent. Santos is the darkhorse, but this spot should be EZ's to lose assuming he's healthy coming into camp.

Agree, although my hunch is that Saarloos will be handed the job unless he messes up spring training badly.

Puffy
02-21-2007, 01:55 PM
Agree, although my hunch is that Saarloos will be handed the job unless he messes up spring training badly.

Mine too.

Kc61
02-21-2007, 01:56 PM
Question 1 shouldn't even be a question. Deno is hands down the better player and it's not even close IMO. I'm anxious to see what Hamilton can bring to the table.


You may be right, but somehow I don't think the Reds are sold on Deno. We'll see, of course, and I can't believe he will be at AAA again. But I don't get the feeling he is a lock to make the team.

dougdirt
02-21-2007, 02:02 PM
If Chris Denorfia doesnt make this team out of ST and Crosby does, I will have given up on management being capable of doing their jobs.

flyer85
02-21-2007, 02:03 PM
Saarloos gets the starting spot. They aren't paying him 1.2M to pitch relief. EZ will start the year in AAA and Belisle in the pen. If Saarloos bombs they will be available to step in.

starters: Ross, Hatty, BP, Gonzo, EE, Dunn, Freel, Jr
bench: Castro, Denorfia, Hamilton, Valentin, Conine

starters: Harang, Arroyo, Lohse, Milton, Saarloos
relief: Weathers, Coffey, Majewski, Belisle, Bray, Stanton, Comier

IMHO, the roster is pretty much set barring injury.

flyer85
02-21-2007, 02:04 PM
If Chris Denorfia doesnt make this team out of ST and Crosby does, I will have given up on management being capable of doing their jobs.that would be a quick plunge from the days of last July.

Crosby is one of those players who looks up to "replacement level".

Kc61
02-21-2007, 02:10 PM
Saarloos gets the starting spot. They aren't paying him 1.2M to pitch relief. EZ will start the year in AAA and Belisle in the pen. If Saarloos bombs they will be available to step in.

starters: Ross, Hatty, BP, Gonzo, EE, Dunn, Freel, Jr
bench: Castro, Denorfia, Hamilton, Valentin, Conine

starters: Harang, Arroyo, Lohse, Milton, Saarloos
relief: Weathers, Coffey, Majewski, Belisle, Bray, Stanton, Comier

IMHO, the roster is pretty much set barring injury.

I agree, except:

Majewski is still injured.

Did the Reds acquire Moeller for AAA? Not sure they did.

Are the Reds ready to decide that Deno is a major leaguer? Hope so.

Can't be sure how the Hamilton situation plays out.

Your team (which is the most likely, agree) has a lot of 1B/outfielders. Reds might go with another spare infielder (Bellhorn, etc.).

BRM
02-21-2007, 02:17 PM
I agree, except:

Majewski is still injured.

Did the Reds acquire Moeller for AAA? Not sure they did.

Are the Reds ready to decide that Deno is a major leaguer? Hope so.

Can't be sure how the Hamilton situation plays out.

Your team (which is the most likely, agree) has a lot of 1B/outfielders. Reds might go with another spare infielder (Bellhorn, etc.).

I would not be surprised to see Moeller make the squad as the 3rd catcher if Hamilton doesn't make it or gets injured.

dsmith421
02-21-2007, 02:28 PM
1. Deno v. Crosby. Not sure either will make the team if Hamilton stays, but assume that the Reds do want a backup outfielder who can play CF well. I am sure Redszone would vote for Denorfia hands down, and I probably agree. But Crosby hits lefty (better partner for Freel, a righty), has more experience, also at one time (not recently) hit for a high average in AAA.


If Bubba Crosby makes the Reds over Chris Denorfia, I can't be held responsible for my actions.

BRM
02-21-2007, 02:31 PM
RedsZone will be a very interesting place to be if Crosby makes the squad over Denorfia. I can only imagine the threads and posts on that one...

flyer85
02-21-2007, 02:40 PM
The Reds are bringing just enough guys to camp(Crosby, Moeller, etc) that are a complete waste of a roster spot to make me uncomfortable.

BRM
02-21-2007, 02:42 PM
The Reds are bringing just enough guys to camp(Crosby, Moeller, etc) that are a complete waste of a roster spot to make me uncomfortable.

Do they make you uncomfortable because you feel Jerry will be tempted to carry them on the active roster?

dsmith421
02-21-2007, 02:43 PM
The Reds are bringing just enough guys to camp(Crosby, Moeller, etc) that are a complete waste of a roster spot to make me uncomfortable.

I really have no doubt in my mind at this stage that the Reds will continue to jerk Denorfia around in favor of crap like Bubba Crosby and either a) ruin his entire career, or b) force him into a late, Brady Clark-style, renaissance somewhere else.

I really hope I'm proven wrong and he gets a full and fair chance. With this manager, I can't see it happening.

dsmith421
02-21-2007, 02:45 PM
Do they make you uncomfortable because you feel Jerry will be tempted to carry them on the active roster?

Absolutely. We know that Narron has a 3-catcher fetish, and we know that he will give the veteran the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. If the Reds carry five OFers, Hamilton is a lock, and the fifth spot is between Denorfia and "proven winner" Bubba Crosby, who do you think Narron is going to lobby for?

jojo
02-21-2007, 02:48 PM
I'd add:

EZ vs Saarloos vs Belisle vs Santos for the fifth starters spot. Saarloos probably has the edge, but not in talent. Santos is the darkhorse, but this spot should be EZ's to lose assuming he's healthy coming into camp.

Everybody writes off Belisle because of doubts about his durability but he clearly has the best stuff of that group and the biggest upside. He should be the favorite and the Reds should pitch him till he poops...

Kc61
02-21-2007, 03:03 PM
Everybody writes off Belisle because of doubts about his durability but he clearly has the best stuff of that group and the biggest upside. He should be the favorite and the Reds should pitch him till he poops...


In 2005 Saarloos -- in the AL -- pitched 160 innings with a 4.17 ERA. (Granted, last year he didn't do as well.)

Nobody else in the fifth starter race has had that kind of performance as a starter in their career.

As for Belisle, I've said it numerous times. He throws harder than some others, but so far I don't think he's ever become the pitcher he was originally projected to be before his back injury. Maybe he will be a late bloomer and prove me wrong. I hope so. But I think long relief is the likely place he'll be this year.

flyer85
02-21-2007, 03:07 PM
Do they make you uncomfortable because you feel Jerry will be tempted to carry them on the active roster?well ... what if they play the game the "right way"?

dfs
02-21-2007, 03:16 PM
Lots of quotes from lots of folks. Sorry about the loss of atributes.

If Chris Denorfia doesnt make this team out of ST and Crosby does, I will have given up on management being capable of doing their jobs.
You know it's kind of interesting. 100 games a year is a pretty low bar. Bubba Crosby has been healthy enough to play baseball for 100 games a season only a handfull of times in his career. My understanding was that Bucky Dent the reds bench coach had Crosby with the Yankees AAA team. My guess is that is why he is in the organization. I don't write any of that to excuse the reds. If it were up to me, dino is the centerfielder till he proves he isn't.


I would not be surprised to see Moeller make the squad as the 3rd catcher if Hamilton doesn't make it or gets injured.
I will not be shocked if Moeller is the 3rd catcher even if Hamilton IS on the squad.


I really have no doubt in my mind at this stage that the Reds will continue to jerk Denorfia around ..and ...force him into a late, Brady Clark-style, renaissance somewhere else.
Yup. That wouldn't shock me either. Hope it doesn't happen, but the reds have given very little indication that they really want Denorfia around.


Saarloos gets the starting spot. They aren't paying him 1.2M to pitch relief. Why not? there are several guys in the pen making that or more. I know he's been very vocal about wanting to be a starter and yeah, you need a fifth starter, but look at the splits for Saarloos as a reliever. Over his full career, he's been far more effective out of the pen. I still think he's as good a candidate for closer as anybody else on the staff.


Everybody writes off Belisle because of doubts about his durability but he clearly has the best stuff of that group and the biggest upside. He should be the favorite and the Reds should pitch him till he poops...
That's pretty much what's happened the last couple of years. He's pooped. If he hasn't been healthy the last three years, why should they anticipate relying on him now? The Lizard should CLEARLY be the favorite of that group, but I think Narron has thrown him under the bus.

BRM
02-21-2007, 03:21 PM
well ... what if they play the game the "right way"?

Does playing the game the right way include being unable to hit their weight (Crosby, Moeller)?

Danny Serafini
02-21-2007, 03:45 PM
Why exactly is Bubba Crosby being held up as this example of veteran-ness like some grizzled old pro? He has exactly 106 more Major League at bats than Denorfia. He's not an entrenched old timer.

BRM
02-21-2007, 03:48 PM
Why exactly is Bubba Crosby being held up as this example of veteran-ness like some grizzled old pro? He has exactly 106 more Major League at bats than Denorfia. He's not an entrenched old timer.

He's 30 years old. That's my guess at least. FWIW, I didn't refer to him as a veteran anyway and I don't recall flyer doing so either.

red-in-la
02-21-2007, 04:03 PM
I am hoping against hope that Hamilton is Jose Guillen part duex......

My darkhorse candidate for closer is Lohse. 94 mph and a good change up makes him almost a Trevor Hoffman clone.

I think maybe Freel is going to be traded in ST. The OF will likely start out Dunn, JR, and Hamilton. Deno is the 4th with a guy like Hopper the 5th.

Reds rotation will be Harang, Arroyo, Milton and Saarloos for the first month with Bailey joining as soon as they need a regular 5th starter.

I cannot see Cormier making the team....

Just my two cents.

flyer85
02-21-2007, 04:07 PM
Why exactly is Bubba Crosby being held up as this example of veteran-ness like some grizzled old pro?I hold him up as an example of worthlessness. Bringing him in might cause a person to see Crosby as something that is actually useful.

TRF
02-21-2007, 04:12 PM
In 2005 Saarloos -- in the AL -- pitched 160 innings with a 4.17 ERA. (Granted, last year he didn't do as well.)

Nobody else in the fifth starter race has had that kind of performance as a starter in their career.

As for Belisle, I've said it numerous times. He throws harder than some others, but so far I don't think he's ever become the pitcher he was originally projected to be before his back injury. Maybe he will be a late bloomer and prove me wrong. I hope so. But I think long relief is the likely place he'll be this year.

In 2005 Saarloos had a 4.25 ERA as a starter. He pitched 157 innings as a starter. And he had one of the weirdest home/away splits I have ever seen.

On the road he was 6-4 with a 3.47 ERA, 5.09 at home. In a pitchers park. He gave up 11 HR's, 6 at home. Over all he's average through the first 15 pitches, great through the next 15, awful the next 15, great again the next 15, back to awful the next 30.

I honestly don't know what to make of the guy.

KySteveH
02-22-2007, 10:24 PM
and the Reds should pitch him till he poops...
That would certainly be an interesting way for Belisle to differentiate himself from the pack. We've seen a lot of crappy pitching from the Reds staff in the past few years, but I think this might be taking it too far.

edabbs44
02-22-2007, 10:43 PM
I am hoping against hope that Hamilton is Jose Guillen part duex......

My darkhorse candidate for closer is Lohse. 94 mph and a good change up makes him almost a Trevor Hoffman clone.

I think maybe Freel is going to be traded in ST. The OF will likely start out Dunn, JR, and Hamilton. Deno is the 4th with a guy like Hopper the 5th.

Reds rotation will be Harang, Arroyo, Milton and Saarloos for the first month with Bailey joining as soon as they need a regular 5th starter.

I cannot see Cormier making the team....

Just my two cents.

Hamilton starting? There is no shot. Can't even fathom Team Narron pulling that off.

Kc61
02-23-2007, 04:42 PM
With Narron saying he might carry only 11 pitchers -- which is unlikely -- it does leave open the possibility of an extra position player. I assume that would be Moeller, giving Jerry a third catcher. That way he could freely use Valentin as the main lefty pinch hitter.

In terms of spring competition, you would wonder about the bullpen. With only 6 relievers, Bray, Coffey, Weathers and Stanton are locks. You would think the team, with a short pen, would want the two long relievers to be multiple inning guys. This should help guys like Belisle secure a spot. It might hurt Cormier's chances.

Highlifeman21
02-23-2007, 05:29 PM
If Chris Denorfia doesnt make this team out of ST and Crosby does, I will have given up on management being capable of doing their jobs.

I completely agree.

There should be ZERO talk of should Chris Denorfia make the 25 man roster.

The discussion should continue to focus as to why he's not the everyday CF for the Reds.

Kc61
03-04-2007, 08:31 PM
How does it look after the first weekend of spring training games.

Assuming a 5-man bench, assuming Conine is healthy, I think 4 of the 5 slots are taken. Hamilton appears to be a lock, plus Castro, Conine and Valentin.

This leaves one slot for Deno, Crosby, Hopper, Bellhorn or Moeller. Keppinger now out of running with injury. Two open slots if Reds go with 11 hurlers.

I think Saarloos is a lock for a starting position. So the rotation is set unless Lohse is seriously hurt. If he is, I doubt the fill-in will be Bailey.

In the pen, the expected group of Weathers, Stanton, Bray, Coffey, Cormier, and Belisle seem on track so far. But Majewski is likely out so the door is open for another reliever. Seems to me that Salmon has the inside track so far, but have to watch Hermanson. Burton and Livingston seem to have an outside chance.

KronoRed
03-04-2007, 10:39 PM
Hamilton starting? There is no shot. Can't even fathom Team Narron pulling that off.

Get ready for it.

mth123
03-05-2007, 05:13 AM
How does it look after the first weekend of spring training games.

Assuming a 5-man bench, assuming Conine is healthy, I think 4 of the 5 slots are taken. Hamilton appears to be a lock, plus Castro, Conine and Valentin.

This leaves one slot for Deno, Crosby, Hopper, Bellhorn or Moeller. Keppinger now out of running with injury. Two open slots if Reds go with 11 hurlers.

I think Saarloos is a lock for a starting position. So the rotation is set unless Lohse is seriously hurt. If he is, I doubt the fill-in will be Bailey.

In the pen, the expected group of Weathers, Stanton, Bray, Coffey, Cormier, and Belisle seem on track so far. But Majewski is likely out so the door is open for another reliever. Seems to me that Salmon has the inside track so far, but have to watch Hermanson. Burton and Livingston seem to have an outside chance.

1. I still think there is a good possibility that the Reds will acquire Hamilton's rights for nothing (ie as the PTBNL for Harris) or next to nothing (like a spare part that the Reds can't keep due some Roster restriction like Burton or Dumatrait). If so, he may go to AAA to get AB's while Moeller fills the spot and Javy is the LHPH.

2. I also think that Hamilton is a lock if TB shoots itself in the foot and insists on resisiting (because the Reds are not going to give him back IMO).

3. Deno should be a lock but I wonder.

4. Not sure what to make of Bellhorn. He is not a good defender at 2B and K's a lot. He doesn't seem to be WKs type. I prefer him as the RH 1B over Conine, but now that Conine is here and owed $2 Million, I don't see that as the choice. I can't see this team keeping him over others who project to have better defensive value. If he makes it over Deno I just won't know what to say.

5. Options are going to play into these choices. I'm still not sure where the Reds stand with options on Lizard, Belisle, Shack, Salmon, Livingston, etc.

6. I agree that the rotation looks set but I think Lizard is getting shafted. I'd rather have him than Milton, Lohse or Saarloos.

7. I still think some trades may develop. The Red have a lot of guys who will probably end-up with major league jobs somewhere who are on the bubble.

8. I think Lightenberg and Hermanson (and to a lesser degree Paul Wilson) are X-factors. Lightenberg is the best of the 3 IMO.

9. I think how Griffey is handled when he returns will tell a lot. I could realistically see him in RF with a RH/LH platoon in CF with Hamilton and either Freel or Deno. If Griffey is in CF, I have to think we'll see more of Conine in the OF and at least one of these guys will be moved somehow in a deal.

HumnHilghtFreel
03-06-2007, 06:55 PM
There are a few open spots on the bench and bullpen. Wonder how it works out.

3. Moeller v. ? Does Moeller's value defensively (with Valentin primarily a pinch hitter) mean that Reds keep 3 catchers again and drop a different bench player? Could mean that all four of the above will be sent out.

I just saw this in the Reds.com mailbag. The writer seemed to be in favor of Moeller making the roster.


Why do the Reds feel the need to carry three catchers? It is a waste of a roster spot. If you think about it, there are four catchers considering Scott Hatteberg came up as a catcher. -- Dean F, Loveland, Ohio

Certainly, Hatteberg could step up during an emergency. But he stopped catching long ago because he had a below-average throwing arm. Even he says his throws would get to second base...eventually.

If they carried a third catcher in Chad Moeller, which isn't a guarantee, the Reds would do it to get extra protection -- especially since No. 2 catcher Javier Valentin is their best pinch hitter from the left side. Without a third catcher, the bench would be exposed if Valentin had to bat and then David Ross got hurt later in the game. If a second lefty pinch-hitter or switch hitter makes the club (ie: Hamilton or Mark Bellhorn), the three-catcher situation might not be happening.

Jr's Boy
03-06-2007, 07:53 PM
4. Hamilton v. ? If Hamilton has even a half-way decent spring, he stays. Somebody else loses a slot because of it, unless there is a trade for Hamilton's rights. In that case he can go to AAA for awhile.


I thought he had to stay on the major league roster or be released.

HumnHilghtFreel
03-06-2007, 07:56 PM
4. Hamilton v. ? If Hamilton has even a half-way decent spring, he stays. Somebody else loses a slot because of it, unless there is a trade for Hamilton's rights. In that case he can go to AAA for awhile.


I thought he had to stay on the major league roster or be released.

Unless he would happen to be the PTBNL in the trade with the D-Rays

Kc61
03-12-2007, 12:43 AM
At this point, I don't think the Reds want to send Hamiton down to AAA. Given his past problems, I think they want him with the support of the major league team and management. Frankly, right now, it is hard to see him not starting -- I know it is only spring, but his talent is unbelievable.

Seems to me that one option is for Freel, Griff and Hammy to share center and right field. Three guys for two positions. That doesn't always work -- the Reds have had some problems with such a rotation -- but Freel needs the occasional rest, Griffey certainly could use the rest, and Hammy hasn't been through a major league season yet so doesn't need to play every single day.

While Reds have made no cuts yet, interesting how things have developed. On pitching staff, seems that Burton, Livingston and Hermanson (wasn't here when thread started) are now serious candidates. Salmon, Shack and EZ perhaps not. Deno seems a long shot. Bellhorn, Crosby, Gil and Moeller seem to be stronger candidates than I expected earlier.

Kc61
03-19-2007, 03:56 AM
On pitching front seems like 11 spots are filled -- starting 4, Weathers, Stanton, Cormier, Belisle, Saarloos, Bray, Coffey. Belisle or Saarloos to be fifth starter.

Seems like one pitching spot open for Majewski, Hermanson, or Burton. Probably Maj to start on DL so my guess is that it is Burton vs. Hermanson. May depend on ability to trade for Burton's rights, so he can go to AAA.

That would mean Livingston, EZ, Salmon, Shack, would start off in AAA. (Wilson to be released, or sent down for more work.) Don't know if this works with options, etc., but it's what I expect.

mth123
03-19-2007, 05:44 AM
On pitching front seems like 11 spots are filled -- starting 4, Weathers, Stanton, Cormier, Belisle, Saarloos, Bray, Coffey. Belisle or Saarloos to be fifth starter.

Seems like one pitching spot open for Majewski, Hermanson, or Burton. Probably Maj to start on DL so my guess is that it is Burton vs. Hermanson. May depend on ability to trade for Burton's rights, so he can go to AAA.

That would mean Livingston, EZ, Salmon, Shack, would start in AAA. Don't know if this works with options, etc., but it's what I expect.

The Enquirer is reporting that even though no official announcement has been made, the feeling is that Hermanson is the closer.

I hope his velocity gets better.

Team needs a trade. No spot for Burton or even Majewski based on this.

Tony Cloninger
03-19-2007, 09:50 AM
That's a joke really.

Is he Doug Jones circa 1992 for the Astros? He threw nothing but slow...slow and slower, yet would manage to have 1 year on...1 year off type closer seasons after he left CLE.

TRF
03-19-2007, 10:30 AM
If the Reds lose Burton because of Cormier (who is NOT a good pitcher) I may just puke. In fact, I may start watching competitive eating instead.

This infatuation with guys over 38 (Weathers, Stanton, Cormier, Conine) is getting a little silly. And has Hermanson broken 84 on the gun yet?

oy flippin vey.

BRM
03-19-2007, 10:41 AM
If the Reds lose Burton because of Cormier (who is NOT a good pitcher) I may just puke. In fact, I may start watching competitive eating instead.

This infatuation with guys over 38 (Weathers, Stanton, Cormier, Conine) is getting a little silly. And has Hermanson broken 84 on the gun yet?

oy flippin vey.

I'm still holding out hope that Cormier is traded or the Reds work out a deal with Oakland to retain Burton's rights. I'd really like to see the Reds hang on to Burton.

Heath
03-19-2007, 11:02 AM
Don't read Hal McCoy this morning. It'll hurt. He's in a particular whining mood.

I wish they just get rid of Bubba Crosby already.

Chad Moeller sucks. One of these late spring games, Moeller's gonna come up in the bottom of the ninth and hit a home run. That HR against some scrub AA fodder will propel him to the third catcher.

Kc61
03-20-2007, 08:03 AM
On the position player side, with 4 bench spots taken by Castro, Conine, Valentin and Hamilton, leaves only one spot. But the possibility of Griffey starting on the DL may leave another.

Also getting the feeling the Reds may have plans for Deno after all. He's had a ton of spring at bats, is starting to hit, sounds like hitting coach is devoting a lot of time to him.

So maybe that last spot is his. If Griff on DL, bench could additionally include either Bellhorn or Moeller. I guess Crosby, who's been out, may still be in the hunt. Just based on the Reds' use of them recently, don't see Hopper or Gil making it.

Also, wondering if the shin splints are a way to give Hamilton an early AAA rehab stint?

Nugget
03-20-2007, 07:28 PM
On a related note Sheldon has a mailbag answer today which will put REDSZONE up in arms.

Hermanson and Moeller make the team.

Burton, Deno and Coutlangus do not.

Will M
03-20-2007, 08:49 PM
13 position players ( assuming griffey doesn't start on the DL ) - Ross, Valentin, Hat, Conine, Phillips, Gonzalez, EE, Castro, Dunn, Freel , Deno,
Hamilton & Griffey. These 13 are set. Deno belongs on the team not in AAA.
He will get a lot of playing time this year.

11 pitchers - Harang, Arroyo, Lohse, Milton. 5th starter likely Belisle. Bray, Coffey, Weathers, Stanton, Cormier, Saarloos, Hermanson & Burton.
( Majik on DL ). That still leaves us 2 pitchers above the limit. or one if we use the 25th slot for a pitcher.
Salmon is almost assured to start in AAA.

25th man - usually a pitcher but if Griffey can't play much then i would rather have another position player.

Possible solutions:

1. Belisle, Bray or Saarloss go to AAA. :thumbdown

2. Cormier is traded. Redszone seems to want this. I don't think he is that bad but he is the 3rd best lefty in the pen and i am sure there are teams who could use a lefty reliever.

3. some additional pitcher goes to DL. we still have 2 more weeks of spring training and someone could develop a problem.

4. Milton is traded and both Belisle and Saarloos are starters. this is a longshot. any other big trade is also a longshot

Will M
03-20-2007, 08:51 PM
On the position player side, with 4 bench spots taken by Castro, Conine, Valentin and Hamilton, leaves only one spot. But the possibility of Griffey starting on the DL may leave another.

Also getting the feeling the Reds may have plans for Deno after all. He's had a ton of spring at bats, is starting to hit, sounds like hitting coach is devoting a lot of time to him.

So maybe that last spot is his. If Griff on DL, bench could additionally include either Bellhorn or Moeller. I guess Crosby, who's been out, may still be in the hunt. Just based on the Reds' use of them recently, don't see Hopper or Gil making it.

Also, wondering if the shin splints are a way to give Hamilton an early AAA rehab stint?

Deno needs to be on the team. Freel needs rest. Griffey is close to done. Hamilton is a wild card. I suspect Deno gets lots of playing time.
Deno >>> Crosby or Hopper.

WebScorpion
03-22-2007, 01:01 PM
Here's the solution:

Trade Cormier or Stanton to the Oakland A's for the rights to Jared Burton.
Move Milton to the 'pen as a lefty specialist/long man and keep Belisle AND Saarloos in the rotation. Leaving us with this:

Aaron Harang
Bronson Arroyo
Kyle Lohse
Matt Belisle
Kirk Saarloos

Eric Milton
Bill Bray
Mike Stanton or Rheal Cormier (whichever one isn't traded)
David Weathers
Todd Coffey
Jared Burton or Gary Majewski (if Maj is healthy Burton goes to AAA)
Dustin Hermanson

Yea, I know I'm dreaming...:p:

Kc61
03-25-2007, 06:21 PM
Reds are awfully slow cutting down. My guess is that the next cut, which has to come in the next day or two, will have some interesting decisions:

1. Bellhorn. Have to guess his position on the Reds is questionable. Wonder if he survives the next cut.

2. Milton/Burton/Cormier/Santos. Would seem to me that something has to give with one or two of these guys. Saarloos and Belisle have earned slots, Weathers and Stanton have two year deals, will go north. Coffey is in. If Bray starts on DL maybe two of the above guys stay, but some tough choices have to be made.

I put Milton on the bubble because the club has to be thinking about his performances of late (and in 2005 and in 2006). Cormier could be on the bubble, possibly with trade talks. Santos probably goes to AAA, but he's had a great spring. Burton Rule 5 status helps him stay, but with tight competition don't know what result will be. Didn't put Livingston on the bubble -- likely goes to AAA after his start tomorrow, unless he looks like Koufax out there.

3. Deno/Hopper/Moeller. My guess is that these decisions go down to the wire. Possible injury issues could sort them out. Hopper's injury doesn't help his cause.

Tom Servo
03-25-2007, 06:57 PM
1. Bellhorn. Have to guess his position on the Reds is questionable. Wonder if he survives the next cut.

No way Bellhorn's being kept. He's now just filler for spring training due to injuries.

jnwohio
03-25-2007, 10:09 PM
Reds are awfully slow cutting down. My guess is that the next cut, which has to come in the next day or two, will have some interesting decisions:

.......
2. Milton/Burton/Cormier/Santos. Would seem to me that something has to give with one or two of these guys. Saarloos and Belisle have earned slots, Weathers and Stanton have two year deals, will go north. Coffey is in. If Bray starts on DL maybe two of the above guys stay, but some tough choices have to be made.

I put Milton on the bubble because the club has to be thinking about his performances of late (and in 2005 and in 2006). Cormier could be on the bubble, possibly with trade talks. Santos probably goes to AAA, but he's had a great spring. Burton Rule 5 status helps him stay, but with tight competition don't know what result will be. Didn't put Livingston on the bubble -- likely goes to AAA after his start tomorrow, unless he looks like Koufax out there.


From what I have heard and/ or read Santos is already on a minor league deal and has indicated he will accept AAA assignment. I heard Brantley say outright twice this weekend that Burton makes the 25 man; they will do whatever it takes to make room for him (he inferred even if means Belisle (and Livington) starts the year at AAA). Cormier I think is trade bait but who knows for sure.

I think the best we can hope for with Milton is that he will agree to start the year on the DL Remember he is coming back off of season ending (arthroscoptic) elbow surgery. Otherwise $9 million is still $9 million; and they are going to send him out there while they try to lure somebody into taking on at least some significant part of that salary.

Kc61
03-26-2007, 11:09 AM
As I see it, 21 spots are set.

Starting 8; 4 bench guys (Hamilton, Conine, Castro, Valentin); 4 starters (including Lohse and Belisle, not Milton); 5 relievers (Coffey, Weathers, Stanton, Hermanson, Saarloos -- who could also start).

Bray would make 22, but seems a DL risk. (Assume Majik on DL.) So there are 3 or 4 spots left.

The competitors are Milton, Cormier, Burton, Santos, Deno, Hopper, Moeller.

Livingston and Coutlangus outside chance if Bray out, since they are lefties.

Inconceivable Reds will take only 11 pitchers because of the Burton Rule V thing. Would seem like 25th man should be pitcher to make room for Burton, unless a trade is worked out that lets him go to AAA.

Milton has to be a question mark. I know there's a lot of debate, and the conventional wisdom is he stays, but with one year left on contract, can't be sure Reds won't eat it or DL him.

Wouldn't be surprised if Cormier or Deno or both are traded. Also wouldn't be shocked if Hopper makes the club. He is a singles hitting machine, good for a bench spot. Then there is the whole third catcher thing.

So, I think there are 7 guys for 3 or 4 spots.

Hoosier Red
03-26-2007, 11:19 AM
I think it would take a pretty good poker face but maybe the A's do accept Cormier for the rights to Burton.

If the reds make it clear they're not sending Burton back no matter what the cost. So then the A's choices are to accept a trade for less than value, or get nothing. I've got to think the A's accept less than optimal value.

Redsland
03-26-2007, 11:28 AM
The competitors are Milton, Cormier, Burton, Santos, Deno, Hopper, Moeller.
Milton is a mortal lock.

Krivsky says he's going to carry three catchers, which means Moeller is in.

:(

BRM
03-26-2007, 11:29 AM
Krivsky says he's going to carry three catchers, which means Moeller is in.

:(

Did he say it was a definite? The bench just got significantly weaker if that's the case.

Chip R
03-26-2007, 11:43 AM
I think it would take a pretty good poker face but maybe the A's do accept Cormier for the rights to Burton.

If the reds make it clear they're not sending Burton back no matter what the cost. So then the A's choices are to accept a trade for less than value, or get nothing. I've got to think the A's accept less than optimal value.

Perhaps if we sweetened the pot by including Milton the A's would bite. Tell Billy Beane that Milton would pitch well in OAK.

redsmetz
03-26-2007, 11:46 AM
RE: 3 Catchers
Did he say it was a definite? The bench just got significantly weaker if that's the case.

I didn't read it as a definite, but rather, it's not out of the realm of possibility. I don't think it's necessarily the best, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

BRM
03-26-2007, 12:01 PM
RE: 3 Catchers

I didn't read it as a definite, but rather, it's not out of the realm of possibility. I don't think it's necessarily the best, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

I won't lose any sleep either. I've grown used to poor roster management.

Redsland
03-26-2007, 12:28 PM
Did he say it was a definite? The bench just got significantly weaker if that's the case.
Krivsky just signed Moeller to a major league contract in the off-season. Not a split contract, mind you.

Here's (http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070324/SPT05/703240386/1027) what the Post reported on Saturday:

"People keep harping on the three-catcher thing," Krivsky said. "But you'd better have a guy back there if that's the way you think your roster is suited best. You can't go through a whole season with just two catchers."

Even if one of those catchers isn't the best offensive player on the team - like Moeller - that's the roster Krivsky says he wants.
Moeller said this in the pre-game on Saturday:

"I came here because Wayne said I'd get an opportunity to play. He said he's going to carry three catchers, and I want to be one of them."

Looks pretty cut and dried to me, unfortunately.

BRM
03-26-2007, 12:30 PM
You know, it isn't even worth harping on anymore. It's poor roster management any way you slice it but it's what Wayne wants. The bench will be hamstrung again with 12 pitchers and 3 catchers on the 25 man.

paintmered
03-26-2007, 12:31 PM
4. Hamilton v. ? If Hamilton has even a half-way decent spring, he stays. Somebody else loses a slot because of it, unless there is a trade for Hamilton's rights. In that case he can go to AAA for awhile.


I thought he had to stay on the major league roster or be released.

He must be offered back to the D-Rays if that were to happen. The D-Rays would most certainly reclaim him if given the chance. So in this situation, the end result is the same.

flyer85
03-26-2007, 12:35 PM
You know, it isn't even worth harping on anymore. It's poor roster management any way you slice it but it's what Wayne wants. The bench will be hamstrung again with 12 pitchers and 3 catchers on the 25 man.everybody better stay healthy because the Reds will have one of the worst benches in all of baseball

Castro, Conine, Hamilton, Moeller and Valentin.

little speed, marginal power. Sorry but Castro and Moeller bring nothing to the table.

BRM
03-26-2007, 12:38 PM
everybody better stay healthy because the Reds will have one of the worst benches in all of baseball

Castro, Conine, Hamilton, Moeller and Valentin.

little speed, marginal power. Sorry but Castro and Moeller bring nothing to the table.

They supposedly bring good defense. There is little to no offense on that bench at all.

flyer85
03-26-2007, 12:39 PM
They supposedly bring good defense. There is little to no offense on that bench at all.which doesn't matter much when you play little. You need guys on the bench that can swing the bat.

Castro is nothing more than a caddy for EE.

BRM
03-26-2007, 12:41 PM
which doesn't matter much when you play little. You need guys on the bench that can swing the bat.

Castro is nothing more than a caddy for EE.

Castro and Conine will get quite a bit of playing time. Castro may not getting many at-bats though. I think we'll see him come into lots of games as EE's late inning defensive replacement.

flyer85
03-26-2007, 12:46 PM
I think we'll see him come into lots of games as EE's late inning defensive replacement.... his caddy.

BRM
03-26-2007, 12:47 PM
... his caddy.

Yep. Although I can see Castro getting some starts as well. Any way you slice it, the bench is sizing up to be very weak.

pedro
03-26-2007, 12:49 PM
They supposedly bring good defense. There is little to no offense on that bench at all.


OTOH, if you think that most teams have bench players with .800+ OPS' I'd have to disagree. I'd would prefer it if our bench was a little younger though.

BRM
03-26-2007, 12:50 PM
OTOH, if you think that most teams have bench players with .800+ OPS' I'd have to disagree. I'd would prefer it if our bench was a little younger though.

I don't think that. I do think that good teams have a player or two with a little bit of punch on their bench though. I guess I could be wrong as I haven't really looked into it.

flyer85
03-26-2007, 01:00 PM
OTOH, if you think that most teams have bench players with .800+ OPS' I'd have to disagree. I'd would prefer it if our bench was a little younger though.but there is no purpose for Moeller. As a #3 catcher he will play little(Ross and Javy are getting the starts) and he is useless as a bat off the bench. If they want Castro for his glove and ability to play all the infield positions, then so be it. However, you can't make that argument for Moeller. If he is on the roster he is simply a card that allows them to play Javy as LH pinch hitter in games he doesn't start. That is a really crappy reason to carry a 3rd catcher.

Redsland
03-26-2007, 01:08 PM
If he is on the roster he is simply a card that allows them to play Javy as LH pinch hitter in games he doesn't start. That is a really crappy reason to carry a 3rd catcher.
Particularly since Valentin's three-year splits as a pinch hitter are .193/.264/.337/.601 in 83 AB (zero doubles, zero triples, 19 strikeouts).

KronoRed
03-26-2007, 01:52 PM
But he hits that home run every now and then :D

Any bench with Castro and Conine on it is bad, adding Moeller in is just extra crud on a crud sandwich.

Kc61
03-29-2007, 10:23 PM
So now it is 5 guys for 2 spots. Hopper, Moeller, Burton, Coutlangus, and Santos for 2 spots. And since there are already 11 pitchers (4 starters, Belisle, Saarloos, Weathers, Stanton, Cormier, Coffey, Hermanson), of the five guys on the bubble, a max of one pitcher can be kept.

All this, of course, assumes no trades or surprise releases.

You'd have to think Burton has a big edge to stay because of Rule V. And because that adds up to 12 pitchers, the other spot goes to a position player, Hopper or Moeller. Since Hopper has been hurt, I'd guess Moeller.

Should be an interesting few days. Wonder if there will be a surprise or two.

Tom Servo
03-29-2007, 10:33 PM
If it happens I have a feeling that this year's 3 headed catcher won't last the whole year. Moeller is going to be terrible at the plate, about the same or worse than LaRue last year and he will be DFA'ed by July.

mth123
03-29-2007, 10:36 PM
So now it is 5 guys for 2 spots. Hopper, Moeller, Burton, Coutlangus, and Santos for 2 spots. And since there are already 11 pitchers (4 starters, Belisle, Saarloos, Weathers, Stanton, Cormier, Coffey, Hermanson), of the five guys on the bubble, a max of one pitcher can be kept.

All this, of course, assumes no trades or surprise releases.

You'd have to think Burton has a big edge to stay because of Rule V. And because that adds up to 12 pitchers, the other spot goes to a position player, Hopper or Moeller. Since Hopper has been hurt, I'd guess Moeller.

Should be an interesting few days. Wonder if there will be a surprise or two.

They could buy time by sending the 5th starter down for a week or so allowing 2 pitchers to be kept. I think they need Santos more now in the first week than they will later when Bray, Maj and Ramirez are back, Salmon and Bailey have gotten more time to impress in AAA, Livingston is on a regular schedule etc. I say keep him now while he seems to be pitching well. He gives another arm to help with the short outings the first time through the rotation. Teams like Wash may need him and if the Reds keep him they may be able to trade him for something rather than lose him for nothing.

If they don't keep him now, I see too many guys ahead of him for him to get a shot later. The way he's pitched, he shouldn't accept an assingment to the minors. Some team in need will give him a major league shot. If not, he'll at least be closer to the front of the line somewhere else.

Kc61
03-31-2007, 03:10 PM
So now the position players are set with Moeller getting the last spot. Due to injuries, hard to know whether Reds always intended three catchers, but hopefully this will give Valentin a lot of pinch hit at bats and he will capitalize.

So now there are two pitchers too many. Burton looks in, based on Narron's comments in pre-game show. So that leaves Coutlangus and Santos as the likely cuts. But . . .

Milton, Cormier and (after today's bad outing) Hermanson are possibly question marks. Milton could go on DL. Cormier could be traded. Hermanson, I guess, is safe but sounded pretty shaky today. Not saying Hermanson should be cut, but does he need some rehab time at AAA?

So you have to wonder if, somehow, Coutlangus and Santos (or one of them) will go north with one or two of the expected staff departing, permanentl or temporarily. We will know very soon.

dsmith421
03-31-2007, 03:39 PM
but there is no purpose for Moeller. As a #3 catcher he will play little(Ross and Javy are getting the starts) and he is useless as a bat off the bench. If they want Castro for his glove and ability to play all the infield positions, then so be it. However, you can't make that argument for Moeller. If he is on the roster he is simply a card that allows them to play Javy as LH pinch hitter in games he doesn't start. That is a really crappy reason to carry a 3rd catcher.

Pretty good chance that Moeller is the single most worthless player in Major League Baseball this season.

That is, if it isn't Milton or Castro.