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chicoruiz
02-21-2007, 04:04 PM
"All-Time", that is....The glove manufacturer is holding an election to determine the outstanding defensive players of the last 50 years (Rawlings began awarding Gold Gloves in 1957). You can vote at:

www.rawlingsgoldglove.com/Voting/Default.aspx

Reds on the ballot include Bench, Morgan, Concepcion, Buddy Bell and Junior, plus former pitching coach Jim Kaat. Vote early and often!

M2
02-21-2007, 04:12 PM
Voted for Jim Kaat, Johnny Bench, Keith Hernandez, Bill Mazeroski, Ozzie Smith, Scott Rolen, Garry Maddox, Devon White and Andruw Jones (no Tris Speaker, Richie Ashburn, Joe DiMaggio or Terry Moore on the ballot).

Cyclone792
02-21-2007, 04:20 PM
I went with Greg Maddux, Johnny Bench, Keith Hernandez, Bill Mazeroski, Scott Rolen, Ozzie Smith, Willie Mays, Andruw Jones, and Garry Maddox.

Tris Speaker would have been a definite in the outfield had they included earlier eras. Bill Mazeroski vs. Nap Lajoie would have been interesting at second base, too, but I'd probably have picked Maz in the end.

Oh, and I found it funny that Derek Jeter was one of the six shortstops listed.

Johnny Footstool
02-21-2007, 04:21 PM
Rolen over Schmidt at 3B?

klw
02-21-2007, 04:22 PM
May I be the first to say "Jeter is on the ballot??"


Edit: Now having seen the post done while I was writing May I be the second?

texasdave
02-21-2007, 04:26 PM
I went with Greg Maddux, Johnny Bench, Keith Hernandez, Bill Mazeroski, Scott Rolen, Ozzie Smith, Willie Mays, Andruw Jones, and Garry Maddox.

Tris Speaker would have been a definite in the outfield had they included earlier eras. Bill Mazeroski vs. Nap Lajoie would have been interesting at second base, too, but I'd probably have picked Maz in the end.

Oh, and I found it funny that Derek Jeter was one of the six shortstops listed.


Not a single American Leaguer. Figure the odds. I'm not disagreeing with any of the selections, I just find that curious.

dabvu2498
02-21-2007, 04:27 PM
Rolen over Schmidt at 3B?


Or Brooks Robinson???

I went with Maddux, Bench, Hernandez, Mazeroski, Smith, Robinson, Clemente, Maddox and Mays.

M2
02-21-2007, 04:28 PM
Rolen over Schmidt at 3B?

Yeah, though I could have just as easily picked Schmidt. Both excel to their left and charging the ball. Schmidt was better diving toward the 3B line, Rolen's a little cleaner. Frankly, there wasn't a bad pick at that position (outside of maybe Chavez).

Red Leader
02-21-2007, 04:30 PM
Here's mine:

Your All-Time Rawlings Gold Glove Team
Pitcher:Maddux, Greg
Catcher:Bench, Johnny
First Base:Hernandez, Keith
Second Base:Mazeroski, Bill
Third Base:Rolen, Scott
Shortstop:Smith, Ozzie
Outfield:Jones, Andruw
Outfield:Maddox, Garry
Outfield:Mays, Willie

RFS62
02-21-2007, 04:33 PM
Greg Maddux, Johnny Bench, Keith Hernandez, Bill Mazeroski, Ozzie Smith, Scott Rolen, Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente, Ken Griffey Jr.

TRF
02-21-2007, 04:37 PM
Mine...

Pitcher: Kaat, Jim
Catcher: Bench, Johnny
First Base: Snow, J.T. (He'll be overlooked in this group)
Second Base: Mazeroski, Bill
Third Base: Robinson, Brooks
Shortstop: Smith, Ozzie
Outfield: Clemente, Roberto
Outfield: Griffey Jr., Ken
Outfield: Mays, Willie

shredda2000
02-21-2007, 04:39 PM
Pitcher:Maddux, Greg
Catcher:Bench, Johnny
First Base:Hernandez, Keith
Second Base:Morgan, Joe
Third Base:Schmidt, Mike
Shortstop:Concepcion, Dave
Outfield:Griffey Jr., Ken
Outfield:Mays, Willie
Outfield:Suzuki, Ichiro

Razor Shines
02-21-2007, 04:42 PM
Maddux, Bench, Hernandez, Sandberg, Smith, Schmidt, Mays, Jr., and A. Jones.

Roy Tucker
02-21-2007, 04:47 PM
Greg Maddux, Johnny Bench, Keith Hernandez, Frank White, Ozzie Smith, Brooks Robinson, Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente, Andruw Jones (I went with 2 CF and a RF, couldn't find a LF on the list).

Bigredfan#1
02-21-2007, 05:01 PM
Maddux, Bench, Hernandez, Sandberg, Smith, Schmidt, Mays, Jr., and A. Jones.

Reds, Colts, IU BBAll, Pacers, and UT football (moved to TN in 82)

Cyclone792
02-21-2007, 05:10 PM
For fun, I'll also list an All-Time Gold Glove Team for the pre-1957 group just so the old guys don't feel excluded ...

C: Gabby Hartnett
1B: Frank McCormick
2B: Nap Lajoie
3B: Jimmy Collins
SS: Rabbit Maranville
OF: Tris Speaker, Max Carey, and Lloyd Waner

Degenerate39
02-21-2007, 05:24 PM
Pitcher:Maddux, Greg
Catcher:Bench, Johnny
First Base:Hernandez, Keith
Second Base:Morgan, Joe
Third Base:Schmidt, Mike
Shortstop:Concepcion, Dave
Outfield:Griffey Jr., Ken
Outfield:Mays, Willie
Outfield:Suzuki, Ichiro

My picks exactly

M2
02-21-2007, 05:50 PM
I imagine most folks would rate Ozzie Smth as the best SS. I'm curious who people would pick as #2. I'm torn between Concepcion and Belanger.

Mario-Rijo
02-21-2007, 05:56 PM
Mine are a tad different.

Pitcher:Gibson, Bob
Catcher:Bench, Johnny
First Base:Hernandez, Keith
Second Base:Morgan, Joe
Third Base:Robinson, Brooks
Shortstop:Concepcion, Dave
Outfield:Griffey Jr., Ken
Outfield:Mays, Willie
Outfield:Clemente, Roberto

2B was the killer for me as I felt Alomar, Morgan and Mazeroski were all equally deserving. SS I actually thought Ozzie should get it so I voted like a homer just to get Davey in the running.

Chip R
02-21-2007, 06:02 PM
Katt
Bench
Hernandez
Maz
Aparicio
Robinson
Jones
Mays
Clemente

MrCinatit
02-21-2007, 06:22 PM
Mine, nothing earthh-shattering:
Pitcher:
Maddux, Greg
Catcher:
Bench, Johnny
First Base:
Hernandez, Keith
Second Base:
Mazeroski, Bill
Third Base:
Robinson, Brooks
Shortstop:
Concepcion, Dave
Outfield:
Griffey Jr., Ken
Outfield:
Maddox, Garry
Outfield:
Mays, Willie

Did anyone notice the little characatures above the votes? Hernadez's looks like a porn star.

Sean_CaseyRules
02-21-2007, 08:00 PM
Your All-Time Rawlings Gold Glove Team
Pitcher:Maddux, Greg
Catcher:Bench, Johnny
First Base:Snow, J.T.
Second Base:Morgan, Joe
Third Base:Schmidt, Mike
Shortstop:Smith, Ozzie
Outfield:Edmonds, Jim
Outfield:Griffey Jr., Ken
Outfield:Suzuki, Ichiro

PickOff
02-21-2007, 08:13 PM
Wait till Griffey retires to give him his due if you beleive he is one of the top three. We don't want him getting a big head and thinking that he doesn't need to move to right. :)

IowaRed
02-21-2007, 09:45 PM
Your All-Time Rawlings Gold Glove Team
Pitcher:Kaat, Jim
Catcher:Bench, Johnny
First Base:Parker, Wes
Second Base:Mazeroski, Bill
Third Base:Robinson, Brooks
Shortstop:Belanger, Mark
Outfield:Clemente, Roberto
Outfield:Kaline, Al
Outfield:Mays, Willie

RedsBaron
02-21-2007, 10:06 PM
I voted for Jim Edmonds at all nine positions. I watch ESPN and he apparently can do no wrong............................................. ;)
Actually I voted as follows:
Pitcher-Jim Kaat. I could have gone with Maddux, but Kaat was great forever.
Catcher-Johnny Bench.
Firstbase-Vic Power. Largely forgotten, he was great with the glove, and I couldn't bring myself to vote for Keith Hernandez, one of my all time least favorite players.
Secondbase-Bill Mazeroski. Nobody could turn two like Maz.
Shortstop-Ozzie Smith.
Thirdbase-Ken Boyer. I really do not know if Brooks Robinson or Mike Schmidt or any of the other nominees was the best ever, so I went with my first baseball hero, and a very underrated player.
Outfield-Willie Mays. Perhaps the best all around player ever.
Outfield-Roberto Clemente. Maybe overrated as a hitter, but he had the greatest arm I've ever seen.
Outfield-Andruw Jones. His fielding stats are terrific.

CySeymour
02-22-2007, 09:17 AM
Outfield-Roberto Clemente. Maybe overrated as a hitter, but he had the greatest arm I've ever seen.

My dad swears up and down that Wally Post had just as good an arm as Clemente. Not sure if it is true or not, but who am I to argue with dear ole Dad?

Hap
02-22-2007, 10:02 AM
Eddie Collins deserves recognition for second base. However, he played before the Gold Glove Award existed.

Bobcat J
02-22-2007, 01:15 PM
I am shocked, shocked I tell ya, that no one on the board is voting for Edmonds.

Sean_CaseyRules
02-22-2007, 02:12 PM
Your All-Time Rawlings Gold Glove Team
Pitcher:Maddux, Greg
Catcher:Bench, Johnny
First Base:Snow, J.T.
Second Base:Morgan, Joe
Third Base:Schmidt, Mike
Shortstop:Smith, Ozzie
Outfield:Edmonds, Jim
Outfield:Griffey Jr., Ken
Outfield:Suzuki, Ichiro

I did! He is an awesome outfielder, even though I do hate the Cardinals...

mth123
02-22-2007, 03:48 PM
Maddux - P, Wes Parker 1B, Bill Mazeroski 2B, Ozzie Smith SS, Brooks Robinson 3B, Paul Blair, Willie Mays and Ichiro Suzuki OF, Johnny Bench C.

Clemente was great but was guilty of over dramatizing his play in the same way that Edmonds (who is also great) is accused of on this board. If I were to name a second team:

Kaat, K. Hernandez, Jose Lind, Dave Concepcion, Buddy Bell, Clemente, Garry Maddox, Griffey from his Seattle days, and Jim Sundberg by a hair over I-Rod.

M2
02-22-2007, 04:36 PM
I'm surprised Devon White isn't getting more love. IIRC, back in the late '80s and early '90s it was being argued by both the seamheads and the statheads that he might be the best defensive OF ever.

westofyou
02-22-2007, 04:40 PM
I'm surprised Devon White isn't getting more love. IIRC, back in the late '80s and early '90s it was being argued by both the seamheads and the statheads that he might be the best defensive OF ever.

I liked Dwayne Murphy more myself.

mth123
02-22-2007, 04:47 PM
So many great defensive outfielders aren't as widely known which is the case with both White and Murphy. Gary Pettis, Rick Manning and Ken Berry might be on the list of unknown glove guys as well.

westofyou
02-22-2007, 04:50 PM
I'm going to go with the guys I watched the most. Then Runner Ups

RF - Kaline/Evans
CF - Blair/Eddie Milner
LF - Bonds/Henderson
3rd - Brooks Robinson/Aurlio Rodriguez
SS - Ozzie/Brinkman
2nd - Alomar/Morgan
1st - Hernandez/Joyner
C - Bench/Pudge
P - Maddux/Hampton

mth123
02-22-2007, 05:11 PM
I'm going to go with the guys I watched the most. Then Runner Ups

RF - Kaline/Evans
CF - Blair/Eddie Milner
LF - Bonds/Henderson
3rd - Brooks Robinson/Aurlio Rodriguez
SS - Ozzie/Brinkman
2nd - Alomar/Morgan
1st - Hernandez/Joyner
C - Bench/Pudge
P - Maddux/Hampton

The OF is really tough for me.

I thought about Evans but really like Ichiro and almost felt obligated to pick Clemente. I only know Kaline by reputation, I just didn't see him much back then.

Eddie Milner is a surprise. In CF I had something similar to RF. I felt obligated towards Mays, but what I always remember is Paul Blair and Garry Maddox being the best. If I was going to go for a Red I would have taken Geronimo over Milner.

Hard to argue with Bonds and Henderson in LF. Only Joe Rudi and Yaz are even in the conversation IMO.

I always thought Lind was better for pure defense than Alomar and again a nod to the consensus for Mazeroski. (Pokey Reese for a year or two might make the list as well.)

Eddie Brinkman was very good, but he didn't have Concepcion's range IMO.

Threads like these are fun.

westofyou
02-22-2007, 05:13 PM
Eddie Brinkman was very good, but he didn't have Concepcion's range IMO. He was lot like McMillian from what I gather, steady as they go 24/7 52 weeks a year he and Rodriguez and Coleman for McLain... now that's a haul.

M2
02-22-2007, 05:28 PM
So many great defensive outfielders aren't as widely known which is the case with both White and Murphy. Gary Pettis, Rick Manning and Ken Berry might be on the list of unknown glove guys as well.

White chased Pettis out of a CF job and off the Angels' roster. The Angels wanted to keep both of them, but Pettis supposedly couldn't deal with being a LF (that White would be the CF was never in question).

His catch in Game 3 of the '92 World Series is also the greatest OF play I've ever seen.

Cyclone792
02-22-2007, 05:39 PM
I thought about Evans but really like Ichiro and almost felt obligated to pick Clemente. I only know Kaline by reputation, I just didn't see him much back then.

Unfortunately defensive statistics for that time period are highly unreliable - and even a bit unreliable for today's fielders - but I've heard several people claim that they believe Al Kaline was a greater defensive right fielder than Clemente. Both played well before my time so I never saw them and really can only speculate based on contemporary opinion, however, I do believe Al Kaline seems to be one of the most underrated players in history, both offensively and defensively.

I also remember watching Devon White's catch in the 1992 World Series, but being 10-years-old the magnitude of how great that catch really was just flew right by me.

chicoruiz
02-22-2007, 08:59 PM
Kaat, Bench, Parker, Maz, Brooksie, Ozzie, Mays, Maddux, Kaline.

Although he idea of either Mays or Maddux playing a corner OF is pretty odd.

Someone should start a thread of "Iron Gloves"- the worst fielders ever. My list would start with Jeff Burroughs.

edabbs44
02-22-2007, 09:06 PM
Your All-Time Rawlings Gold Glove Team
Pitcher:Kaat, Jim
Catcher:Bench, Johnny
First Base:Hernandez, Keith
Second Base:Alomar, Roberto
Third Base:Robinson, Brooks
Shortstop:Smith, Ozzie
Outfield:Clemente, Roberto
Outfield:Griffey Jr., Ken
Outfield:Suzuki, Ichiro

deltachi8
02-22-2007, 09:13 PM
I tried to stick with guys i actually saw play, but had to make a couple exceptions (Mays, Clemente)

Pitcher: Kaat, Jim
Catcher: Bench, Johnny
First Base: Mattingly, Don
Second Base: Morgan, Joe
Third Base: Robinson, Brooks
Shortstop: Belanger, Mark
Outfield: Clemente, Roberto
Outfield: Mays, Willie
Outfield: Winfield, Dave

Razor Shines
02-23-2007, 05:10 AM
White chased Pettis out of a CF job and off the Angels' roster. The Angels wanted to keep both of them, but Pettis supposedly couldn't deal with being a LF (that White would be the CF was never in question).

His catch in Game 3 of the '92 World Series is also the greatest OF play I've ever seen.

Is it the one in this clip? About 1:38 in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qoc7iQHuNQY
I was young during this series but sort of remember it, I couldn't find one that followed the ball from the bat so I can't really tell how hard it was hit.

M2
02-23-2007, 12:13 PM
II was young during this series but sort of remember it, I couldn't find one that followed the ball from the bat so I can't really tell how hard it was hit.

That's the catch, but that shot of it hardly does it justice. The ball was a rocket and White broke on contact. The baserunners also took off, figuring no human could ever hope to reach that ball before it reached the wall. The 3B coach got the attention of the runner on second (Deion) and held him up, but the guy on first passed (Pendleton) him. Deion then got a fortunate call in getting out of a rundown (he was tagged, but the ump didn't see it) to avoid a triple play.

The real-time wide view of it is staggering (unfortunatley I can't find it anywhere online). The ground White covered in such a short of time just drops your jaw. You also can't tell from the slo-mo shot there, but even though he dumped some speed at the end, he was still moving at a good clip when he hit the wall. I maintain White's the only CF in history who could have made that play.