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View Full Version : Dustin Hermanson signs with Reds



LoganBuck
03-01-2007, 02:02 PM
Per Marty on the broadcast

Claims it is minor league deal with a big league camp invite. He will report tomorrow.

Heath
03-01-2007, 02:07 PM
low risk high reward

LoganBuck
03-01-2007, 02:09 PM
low risk high reward

Yep, but it is another sign of Krivsky's fetish for old, mostly washed up relievers. I doubt he can recapture his success of 2005.

BRM
03-01-2007, 02:10 PM
Yep, but it is another sign of Krivsky's fetish for old, mostly washed up relievers. I doubt he can recapture his success of 2005.

I believe it's called dumpster diving, hoping to get lucky.

Heath
03-01-2007, 02:11 PM
Yep, but it is another sign of Krivsky's fetish for old, mostly washed up relievers. I doubt he can recapture his success of 2005.

Yep. Would agree.

But this is a Minor League Deal with ST Invite. If he's healthy, great. If not, it's not.

RL's pumped. A fellow Kent Stater in Cincinnati. I know who's getting free tickets.

KronoRed
03-01-2007, 02:13 PM
RL's pumped. A fellow Kent Stater in Cincinnati. I know who's getting free tickets.

Hope those tickets are to Louisville :devil:

redsmetz
03-01-2007, 02:14 PM
Yep, but it is another sign of Krivsky's fetish for old, mostly washed up relievers. I doubt he can recapture his success of 2005.

I'd hardly call 34 old. As many have so, low risk, high possible reward. Nothing big.

pedro
03-01-2007, 02:16 PM
I don;t think it's a bad move

edabbs44
03-01-2007, 02:17 PM
It will be a bad move when Coffey gets bounced for him because he has options left.

LoganBuck
03-01-2007, 02:17 PM
I'd hardly call 34 old. As many have so, low risk, high possible reward. Nothing big.

He may not be old, but his arm is.

redsfan30
03-01-2007, 02:23 PM
I really like this move. Low risk, high reward.

pedro
03-01-2007, 02:23 PM
It will be a bad move when Coffey gets bounced for him because he has options left.


Hermanson was signed to a minor league contract so that won't be necessary.

edabbs44
03-01-2007, 02:24 PM
Hermanson was signed to a minor league contract so that won't be necessary.

How about when WK can't bring himself to leave him off the Opening Day roster?

pedro
03-01-2007, 02:25 PM
How about when WK can't bring himself to leave him off the Opening Day roster?

If you say so...

redsfan30
03-01-2007, 02:32 PM
How about when WK can't bring himself to leave him off the Opening Day roster?

You honest-to-God think Todd Coffey would be sent to Louisville to make room for Hermanson??

Please...

flyer85
03-01-2007, 02:45 PM
He may not be old, but his arm is.it's his back. From what I read it is something he will have to live with because the problems are not going to go away. His is simply a DL move waiting to happen.

Johnny Footstool
03-01-2007, 02:51 PM
You honest-to-God think Todd Coffey would be sent to Louisville to make room for Hermanson??

Please...

No, but Salmon might.

I don't mind this deal all that much, provided it doesn't prevent the Reds from bringing Salmon to the big leagues.

919191
03-01-2007, 02:55 PM
How about when WK can't bring himself to leave him off the Opening Day roster?

What would make you happy?

registerthis
03-01-2007, 02:57 PM
It will be a bad move when Coffey gets bounced for him because he has options left.

That won't happen.

registerthis
03-01-2007, 02:58 PM
How about when WK can't bring himself to leave him off the Opening Day roster?

Redszone: Where the sky falls every day.

LoganBuck
03-01-2007, 03:01 PM
it's his back. From what I read it is something he will have to live with because the problems are not going to go away. His is simply a DL move waiting to happen.

Thanks I thought he had rotator cuff surgury for some reason.

redsfan30
03-01-2007, 03:03 PM
Redszone: Where the sky falls every day.

Usually two or three times a day.

flyer85
03-01-2007, 03:05 PM
Redszone: Where the sky falls every day.Well, Chicken Little does reside here. :laugh:

Heath
03-01-2007, 03:08 PM
I'm simply amazed after reading this thread.

People have deep seeded issues over a freaking Minor League deal.

Unreal.

BRM
03-01-2007, 03:11 PM
I'm simply amazed after reading this thread.

People have deep seeded issues over a freaking Minor League deal.

Unreal.

I think it's because sometimes bad players on minor league deals end up playing in GABP...and hurting the Reds. See Joe Mays.

For the record, I have no issue with this signing.

flyer85
03-01-2007, 03:13 PM
I'm simply amazed after reading this thread.

People have deep seeded issues over a freaking Minor League deal.

Unreal.Depth is not a bad thing, especially with all those old guys in the pen.

BRM
03-01-2007, 03:14 PM
Depth is not a bad thing, especially with all those old guys in the pen.

I agree. It's good to have depth at AAA in case of injuries.

flyer85
03-01-2007, 03:21 PM
I agree. It's good to have depth at AAA in case of injuries.... or crappy performance. :cry:

BRM
03-01-2007, 03:22 PM
... or crappy performance. :cry:

We'll likely get to see both.

Red Leader
03-01-2007, 03:23 PM
How about when WK can't bring himself to leave him off the Opening Day roster?

I can assure you, Dustin Hermanson will NOT be on the Red's opening day roster. No matter what.

Now, if he's healthy in mid-May / June and the Red's need a reliever and the choice is between bringing Hermanson or Salmon up, I'm not going to go "all in" and bet that they don't bring him up then, but he WON'T be taking anyone's roster spot for Opening Day.

Ltlabner
03-01-2007, 03:25 PM
Part of BP's take on Dustin....
Look beyond the saves and the ERA, and Hermanson was what he always has always been: a very ordinary pitcher with a walk rate just on the happy side of par

Forecasted 2007 numbers....

WHIP ERA BB9 K9 GB/FB%
1.46 5.05 3.0 5.8 44

15fan
03-01-2007, 03:35 PM
About 5 or 6 years ago, wasn't Hermanson one of JimBo's trade targets?

Tom Servo
03-01-2007, 04:03 PM
I'm fine with this, I just wish Wayne could have done it on a more dull day. Lord knows this offseason was full of them.

Jr's Boy
03-01-2007, 04:12 PM
Well Everyday Eddie was used goods as well when he became a Red.Low risk,and a good move by Krivsky.

Danny Serafini
03-01-2007, 04:40 PM
According to Trent's blog he'll make $500,000 if he makes the roster. Cheaper than I expected.

BRM
03-01-2007, 04:42 PM
According to Trent's blog he'll make $500,000 if he makes the roster. Cheaper than I expected.

That's about what I figured. It shouldn't have taken much money since no one else was interested.

Kc61
03-01-2007, 04:53 PM
No, but Salmon might.

I don't mind this deal all that much, provided it doesn't prevent the Reds from bringing Salmon to the big leagues.

If Salmon is so good, why wouldn't the Reds bring him up? Do folks think the Reds have something against good young pitchers? Exactly which young pitchers did the Reds wrongly decide to keep in the minor leagues?

With Hermanson and Guardado, the Reds have two proven closers who, if they get healthy, can be a huge addition later in the season. Either of these guys -- if healthy -- materially upgrade the bullpen. Experienced, plus, late inning relievers.

Mr. Salmon is a 27 year old minor leaguer. If you look at BA's top thirty, they don't rate Salmon that highly. I hope he has a breakout season and wins the Cy Young award, but if Eddie and Hermanson get healthy, I'd make sure they get roster spots.

dfs
03-01-2007, 05:16 PM
Do folks think the Reds have something against good young pitchers? Yes. They have a history of destroying them by mismanaging their careers. Reitsma and the lizard are certainly recent examples.


If you look at BA's top thirty, they don't rate Salmon that highly
Because no minor league relief pitcher belongs in ANYBODY's list of top 30 prospects.


The Hermanson signing belongs in the same boat as the Hammond or White signings from last year. Low risk is a great concept till it starts costing you games.

Kc61
03-01-2007, 06:05 PM
Yes. They have a history of destroying them by mismanaging their careers. Reitsma and the lizard are certainly recent examples.


Because no minor league relief pitcher belongs in ANYBODY's list of top 30 prospects.


The Hermanson signing belongs in the same boat as the Hammond or White signings from last year. Low risk is a great concept till it starts costing you games.

The Reds didn't destroy Reitsma or the Lizard. They pitched Reitsma in the major leagues when appropriate -- they just ultimately traded him. And he was never a Reds minor leaguer at all -- I think he joined the big team directly after he was acquired. Destroyed the Lizard? They have given EZ a full shot at the major leagues and continue to keep him in their plans despite mixed results.

If these are your best examples of "destroying" pitchers through mismanagement, they aren't very compelling.

The fact is that there is a tendency for fans to fall in love with even borderline prospects who do well in the minor leagues. But unless you want to run a tryout camp all season, the team has to evaluate these guys and narrow the list.

On the other hand, guys with "closer stuff" and a closer track record, who have injuries but may come back, can be major pick-ups for a team. I think Hermanson is a great gamble, as was Guardado. Neither may pan out, but if either gets healthy, you have a proven guy.

And as for Salmon, if you read BA's writeup, it is not very strong. Still he did have a fine year last year and I am all for giving him a shot if he has a good spring. Hermanson clearly won't be ready then and won't prevent Salmon from getting a spot.

edabbs44
03-01-2007, 10:54 PM
What would make you happy?

How about making a move that doesn't have some huge caveat to it? Like:

If Hermanson's back doesn't give out, he might be good.
If Guardado ever comes back from TJ surgery, he might help come August.
If Gonzalez has an OBP of over .300, he'll be an asset.
If Jerry uses Conine correctly, he might help the team.

I would, for once, see the Reds make a move that is a lock. I know that "locks" cost a lot of money, but it would be refreshing to see them make a move that you don't have to worry too much about.

I know it's early, but Jerry doesn't have a great poker face. Josh Hamilton will have every opportunity to play a major role on this team this season. They have openly admitted that Griffey might play RF this season and they start Hamilton in CF over a guy who was named the best defensive OFer in the International League last season. How does that make any sense?

And don't get me started on Conine.

If a guy who has 100 career ABs above A ball has a shot to knock Deno off the roster because of options, then I wouldn't be absolutely stunned if this Hermanson signing has future implications.

After seeing so much of Q last year, nothing will stun me in 2007.

Razor Shines
03-02-2007, 01:05 AM
How about making a move that doesn't have some huge caveat to it? Like:

If Hermanson's back doesn't give out, he might be good.
If Guardado ever comes back from TJ surgery, he might help come August.
If Gonzalez has an OBP of over .300, he'll be an asset.
If Jerry uses Conine correctly, he might help the team.

I would, for once, see the Reds make a move that is a lock. I know that "locks" cost a lot of money, but it would be refreshing to see them make a move that you don't have to worry too much about.
.

What moves out there for them to make would you consider locks? I think we've seen that even moves that aren't locks cost a lot of money. Gil Meche got 55 mil after going 11 and 8, that's not a lock but it's a lot of money. Jason Marquis got 21 mil for 3 years after going 14 and 16 last year and striking out less than 100 batters, again not a lock, and there are so many more to list just from this past off season. There really aren't that many moves out there that you don't have to worry too much about. The Cubs probably don't have to worry about Soriano's contract this year or next year but when his hands slow down in a few years they might worry about it then.

I'd like to see the Reds go after some younger guys too, but giving Hermanson a minor league deal can't be a bad thing. I just don't see these "lock" moves out there that the Reds aren't making.

Johnny Footstool
03-02-2007, 01:20 AM
If Salmon is so good, why wouldn't the Reds bring him up? Do folks think the Reds have something against good young pitchers? Exactly which young pitchers did the Reds wrongly decide to keep in the minor leagues?

With Hermanson and Guardado, the Reds have two proven closers who, if they get healthy, can be a huge addition later in the season. Either of these guys -- if healthy -- materially upgrade the bullpen. Experienced, plus, late inning relievers.

Mr. Salmon is a 27 year old minor leaguer. If you look at BA's top thirty, they don't rate Salmon that highly. I hope he has a breakout season and wins the Cy Young award, but if Eddie and Hermanson get healthy, I'd make sure they get roster spots.

This isn't about the Reds' handling of young pitchers. It's about Brad Salmon, a minor leaguer who finally put things together last season and was very successful. He earned a chance to prove himself in the majors.

If the Reds don't bring him up, it will be for precisely the reason you state: he's 27 and has never pitched in the big leagues. "Baseball men" will decide he's too old and will never give him a chance. Yet a guy like Hermanson continues to get chances even though he hurt his arm and pitched terribly last season, and hasn't been all that good for quite a while (check his peripherals).

Granted, I'm in favor of giving Hermanson a chance, too. Just not at the expense of a young, cheap, electric arm.

Wheelhouse
03-02-2007, 01:26 AM
What I want to know is why Krivsky got Phillips, a proven head-case and underachiever when we already have 3 second basemen in Freel, Aurilia, and Jimenez? And for that matter, what's up with acquiring David Ross? Helllllooooo, we have two excellent ML catchers already in Larue and Valentin, and Ross is wimpy, wimpy, wimpy with the stick. And the big ma-moo, could Wayne get no more than middling starter Bronson Arroyo for one of the best power prospects in the game? What is Wayne smoking?

MartyFan
03-02-2007, 03:58 AM
I only read the first page of this thread and it inspired me to ask the following question.

Why does this board have so many "Experts" who act like drama queens?

I think it is brilliant that Special K is building so much depth in the RP squad and OF...if any of these low risk high reward signings pan out we have increased trade bait to help improve our farm system.

edabbs44
03-02-2007, 06:10 AM
I only read the first page of this thread and it inspired me to ask the following question.

Why does this board have so many "Experts" who act like drama queens?

I think it is brilliant that Special K is building so much depth in the RP squad and OF...if any of these low risk high reward signings pan out we have increased trade bait to help improve our farm system.

That's part of my issue.

Is that his main motive? If so, you can then say that he is probably not overly excited for this season as he has spent more time trying to get potential trade bait than filling the other larger holes in the team.

If he does feel that way, then why the 2 year contracts for elderly relievers and why the $14 million to the no hit shortstop? That money could have been better spent elsewhere if this year isn't exactly on his radar.

As he is building depth in the bullpen, there are 3 large question marks in the rotation. He should be looking for long relievers rather than potential mid-season closers.

osuceltic
03-02-2007, 08:52 AM
A lot of your are going to be very frustrated by the Krivsky Era. You're going to see a lot of non-sexy moves. He's going to spend a lot of time on the bullpen. He's going to build a team that values defense. He's going to sign veterans who do "the little things." He's going to value scouting (amateur AND professional) and player development -- don't underestimate the second part of that (player development). He's going to try to win every year -- and that will mean signing stopgap veterans probably every year.

In other words, this organization is going to be run like the Twins are run. When the scouting and player development starts churning out players like Morneau and Mauer -- not to mention Santana and Liriano -- we'll appreciate what he's doing. If he fails to develop those kinds of players, he eventually is going to fail. But he's going to try to win at the major league level while building that organizational foundation -- and that means guys like Hermanson and Conine will always be part of the equation.



Get used to it. If you don't like it, you might want to find another way to spend your time.

edabbs44
03-02-2007, 09:18 AM
A lot of your are going to be very frustrated by the Krivsky Era. You're going to see a lot of non-sexy moves. He's going to spend a lot of time on the bullpen. He's going to build a team that values defense. He's going to sign veterans who do "the little things." He's going to value scouting (amateur AND professional) and player development -- don't underestimate the second part of that (player development). He's going to try to win every year -- and that will mean signing stopgap veterans probably every year.

In other words, this organization is going to be run like the Twins are run. When the scouting and player development starts churning out players like Morneau and Mauer -- not to mention Santana and Liriano -- we'll appreciate what he's doing. If he fails to develop those kinds of players, he eventually is going to fail. But he's going to try to win at the major league level while building that organizational foundation -- and that means guys like Hermanson and Conine will always be part of the equation.



Get used to it. If you don't like it, you might want to find another way to spend your time.

Mauer was the #1 pick overall. The Reds will have to have a serious regression if they want to start picking top 5.

Santana was a once in a lifetime Rule 5 draft pick.

I don't think we should wait for WK to churn out players the same way Johan, Mauer and Soriano came to be in Minny. We'll be waiting a long time.

SunDeck
03-02-2007, 09:50 AM
I don't see a huge problem with the way the Reds are building these "low risk, high reward" deals for the bullpen and the lower part of the rotation. If it pans out and a few of them create either opportunities to add wins or trade value in July, I'm good with that (because pitching is what everyone else needs, too).
They are in such a better position than they were last year because they had the top two spots of the rotation figured out prior to Spring Training this time. On top of that they know it's a lock that Bailey either breaks camp on the major league roster or comes up during the season. So, I'll take a pretty darned good looking 3/5ths of a rotation on March 2nd any day, given the recent history of this club.

edabbs44
03-02-2007, 10:07 AM
I don't see a huge problem with the way the Reds are building these "low risk, high reward" deals for the bullpen and the lower part of the rotation. If it pans out and a few of them create either opportunities to add wins or trade value in July, I'm good with that (because pitching is what everyone else needs, too).
They are in such a better position than they were last year because they had the top two spots of the rotation figured out prior to Spring Training this time. On top of that they know it's a lock that Bailey either breaks camp on the major league roster or comes up during the season. So, I'll take a pretty darned good looking 3/5ths of a rotation on March 2nd any day, given the recent history of this club.

I realize I have become a salty cynical complainer, but I won't be overly excited until this team can compete.

Having 3/5ths of a rotation is great based on the recent history of this franchise. But I don't think this team is on the verge of the playoffs right now.

Johnny Footstool
03-02-2007, 10:07 AM
I only read the first page of this thread and it inspired me to ask the following question.

Why does this board have so many "Experts" who act like drama queens?

I think it is brilliant that Special K is building so much depth in the RP squad and OF...if any of these low risk high reward signings pan out we have increased trade bait to help improve our farm system.

What is this "high reward" people assume Hermanson can provide? From where I sit, his highest ceiling is "average middle reliever."

I find it frustrating that Wayne preaches "pitching and defense", then signs a boatload of ancient relievers with very limited upside AND passes the buck when it comes to moving Griffey out of CF. Calling Dustin Hermanson and Jeff Conine "depth" is laughable -- they're barely-servicable major leaguers with some name recognition.

Kc61
03-02-2007, 10:41 AM
This isn't about the Reds' handling of young pitchers. It's about Brad Salmon, a minor leaguer who finally put things together last season and was very successful. He earned a chance to prove himself in the majors.

Granted, I'm in favor of giving Hermanson a chance, too. Just not at the expense of a young, cheap, electric arm.

If his arm were truly electric there would be no question. BA doesn't think so. The Reds didn't think so while he was mired in the minors all these years.

This is why you have scouts. If AAA statistics were all that mattered, Chris Booker would be an all-star. And while Salmon seems to have good velocity, that's not the entire equation either.

So before we annoint this guy or any other similar young pitcher, let's see how he does this spring. He deserves a full shot in spring training.

registerthis
03-02-2007, 10:48 AM
How about making a move that doesn't have some huge caveat to it?

How about admitting that the confines of working within a budget frequently necessitate making moves that require caveats?

And how about not reading more into a minor league deal than what is there?

registerthis
03-02-2007, 10:57 AM
What is this "high reward" people assume Hermanson can provide? From where I sit, his highest ceiling is "average middle reliever."

Yes, and why would we want to waste time acquiring average middle relievers? If that's where Hermannson eventually lands, that's a good thing. And if it ISN'T where he eventually lands, well, we wasted a minor league spot on him. Big deal.

I guess my question is: the people complaining about this move, is your wish that the deal had never been made? Are the odds that Hermannson never amounts to anything of value so great that he's not worth a minor league roster spot? Because, beyond those points, I can't see what about this deal could possibly stoke people's ire. If he becomes an average middle reliever, he'll become a valuable asset to this team. And if he doesn't? The team won't be any worse off.

edabbs44
03-02-2007, 11:05 AM
How about admitting that the confines of working within a budget frequently necessitate making moves that require caveats?

And how about not reading more into a minor league deal than what is there?

Sure...but not every move. And all we have heard is how there is money out there to be spent. That's according to Bob.

Excuse me if I'm not buying into the whole "Give WK time...Cincinnati will be just like the Twins in 3 years". He has spent an inordinate amount of time on the bullpen and it still isn't that good. Isn't that ironic?

Ask Terry Ryan about his "veteran presence" type acquisitions last season and how they did. Rondell White, Tony Batista and Juan Castro didn't make a positive impact on that team.

My issue is that this guy has not given up on the bullpen, minor league deals or not. How about getting another legitimate starter? We can do cartwheels because the Reds now have 2 accomplished ML starters and a good prospect on the way, but how about getting another one? Or should they say "Our starting pitching is now light years ahead of 2004, so we should be just fine" as they are again hovering around .500?

osuceltic
03-02-2007, 11:06 AM
Mauer was the #1 pick overall. The Reds will have to have a serious regression if they want to start picking top 5.

Santana was a once in a lifetime Rule 5 draft pick.

I don't think we should wait for WK to churn out players the same way Johan, Mauer and Soriano came to be in Minny. We'll be waiting a long time.

You're missing the point. The point isn't that we get players of that caliber exactly. It's that the core of the team is going to be identified through scouting, acquiring players through the amateur draft and minor league acquisisitions, with smart trades and signings that fit within the budget doing the rest. And they're going to try to win every year while accomplishing all of the rest of it. That means there will be more Dustin Hermansons and Jeff Conines and Rich Aurilias and those types of players. Because this year matters -- every year.

I don't care how old the players are as long as they win and as long as the organization is working on the other end to add talent.

edabbs44
03-02-2007, 11:12 AM
Yes, and why would we want to waste time acquiring average middle relievers? If that's where Hermannson eventually lands, that's a good thing. And if it ISN'T where he eventually lands, well, we wasted a minor league spot on him. Big deal.

I guess my question is: the people complaining about this move, is your wish that the deal had never been made? Are the odds that Hermannson never amounts to anything of value so great that he's not worth a minor league roster spot? Because, beyond those points, I can't see what about this deal could possibly stoke people's ire. If he becomes an average middle reliever, he'll become a valuable asset to this team. And if he doesn't? The team won't be any worse off.

11/3/05 Signed OF Dewayne Wise to a Minor League contract and invited him to Spring Training.

2/14/06 Signed OF Quinton McCracken to a Minor League contract with an invitation to Spring Training

5/19/06 Signed RHP Joe Mays to a Minor League contract

Yeah, those types of signings never negatively impact the performance of the major league club.

edabbs44
03-02-2007, 11:15 AM
You're missing the point. The point isn't that we get players of that caliber exactly. It's that the core of the team is going to be identified through scouting, acquiring players through the amateur draft and minor league acquisisitions, with smart trades and signings that fit within the budget doing the rest. And they're going to try to win every year while accomplishing all of the rest of it. That means there will be more Dustin Hermansons and Jeff Conines and Rich Aurilias and those types of players. Because this year matters -- every year.

I don't care how old the players are as long as they win and as long as the organization is working on the other end to add talent.

Only time will tell. My problem is that WK will be trying to win now when he doesn't have real money to accomplish that. So the team will remain in 3rd or 4th place each year.

That's my prediction. He's not going to win this year with the team he is assembling, so why bother with most of his off-season moves?

Hermanson is fine...but add him to Weathers, Stanton, the Cormier extension, the trade, etc etc etc and it becomes pretty old.

registerthis
03-02-2007, 11:15 AM
My issue is that this guy has not given up on the bullpen, minor league deals or not. How about getting another legitimate starter?

He traded for Kirk Sarloos. And he re-inked Harang and Arroyo to long term deals. With Bailey coming up soon, that's 4/5ths of our rotation. Who is this "legitimate starter" you would like to see pursued?

I'm not trying to be smarmy with you, but I see this a lot--oh, Krivsky should be doing this or that. But rarely does anyone actually include anything tangible on their wish list. It's typically a list of positions that Krivsky should be focusing on, and the mysterious "legitimate" player is never named.

It's easy to sit here and cast stones (although over a move like this, I don't understand), but when it comes to actually offering up a legitimate plan, well...people tend to fall a bit short in that regard.

registerthis
03-02-2007, 11:19 AM
Yeah, those types of signings never negatively impact the performance of the major league club.

Joe Mays - 27 IP
McCracken - 53 ABs
Wise - 38 ABs

Yep, those three definitely cost us the pennant.

westofyou
03-02-2007, 11:23 AM
Joe Mays - 27 IP
McCracken - 53 ABs
Wise - 38 ABs

Yep, those three definitely cost us the pennant.

You mean 1.6% of the teams at bats and 1.6% of the teams IP shouldn't be my biggest worry?

I agree, I can go through every team in the history of the game and pull the same sort of mediocrity out of their years line.

edabbs44
03-02-2007, 11:23 AM
Joe Mays - 27 IP
McCracken - 53 ABs
Wise - 38 ABs

Yep, those three definitely cost us the pennant.

What did they finish out of 1st last year...2.5 games or something like that?

registerthis
03-02-2007, 11:28 AM
What did they finish out of 1st last year...2.5 games or something like that?

Get back with me when you can attribute those 2.5 games to the guys you listed above.

Every team has menial players who take up a menial amount of playing time and offer a menial amount of production. You're free to get your dander up over them if you wish. Me, I've got bigger fish to fry.

edabbs44
03-02-2007, 11:30 AM
He traded for Kirk Sarloos. And he re-inked Harang and Arroyo to long term deals. With Bailey coming up soon, that's 4/5ths of our rotation. Who is this "legitimate starter" you would like to see pursued?

I'm not trying to be smarmy with you, but I see this a lot--oh, Krivsky should be doing this or that. But rarely does anyone actually include anything tangible on their wish list. It's typically a list of positions that Krivsky should be focusing on, and the mysterious "legitimate" player is never named.

It's easy to sit here and cast stones (although over a move like this, I don't understand), but when it comes to actually offering up a legitimate plan, well...people tend to fall a bit short in that regard.

Forgot about Saarloos...that's the acquisiton that will take them over the top.

It's tough to say what I would do since I do not have the inside knowledge of what WK can and cannot do.

I do know this...people are mocking the Cubs contracts from this off-season and the one thing I saw was that they got better. Maybe they spent a load of money, but they got some players who will make them better. The Reds did not do that.

If I said they should have signed Lilly, I will be told he wasn't worth that contract. Same goes for Meche, Zito and any other contract signed in the past few months. I think we'll be saying the same thing next year, when mid tier pitchers are signing for $10 million and Cincy stays on the sidelines.

registerthis
03-02-2007, 11:35 AM
I do know this...people are mocking the Cubs contracts from this off-season and the one thing I saw was that they got better. Maybe they spent a load of money, but they got some players who will make them better. The Reds did not do that.

And if you are waiting on the Reds to begin spending money like the Cubs, then you're going to be waiting a very, very long time.


It's tough to say what I would do since I do not have the inside knowledge of what WK can and cannot do.

You just know he shouldn't have done this. Got it.


If I said they should have signed Lilly, I will be told he wasn't worth that contract. Same goes for Meche, Zito and any other contract signed in the past few months. I think we'll be saying the same thing next year, when mid tier pitchers are signing for $10 million and Cincy stays on the sidelines.

Yep, the reason the Reds won't be in the playoffs this year is because they didn't throw $55 million towards Gil Meche. What could krivsky possibly have been thinking?

edabbs44
03-02-2007, 11:38 AM
You just know he shouldn't have done this. Got it.

I just know that this off-season will not get this team to where they need to be. So the millions spent on Mercker, Gonzalez, Weathers and Conine will do one thing. It will drop their draft slot. Maybe they'll be like one or two wins better because of WK's first full off-season. These guys will not add much value to the team. And to me, it's wasted money.

registerthis
03-02-2007, 11:45 AM
I just know that this off-season will not get this team to where they need to be. So the millions spent on Mercker, Gonzalez, Weathers and Conine will do one thing. It will drop their draft slot. Maybe they'll be like one or two wins better because of WK's first full off-season. These guys will not add much value to the team. And to me, it's wasted money.

Yep, some of those I would definitely agree are wastes of cash--some not (Gonzalez). But many of the players you mentioned 1) are making significantly more than Hermanson, and 2) are guaranteed spots on the major league roster.

This thread isn't about them, it's about Dustin Hermanson and your apparent disdain for Krivsky signing him. Hermanson will be at worst a complete non-factor, and at best a middle reliever with some ability to help the club. He's costing them next-to-nothing, and he fills a spot in AAA not being held down by anyone else of value. It's not the end of the franchise.

edabbs44
03-02-2007, 12:04 PM
Yep, some of those I would definitely agree are wastes of cash--some not (Gonzalez). But many of the players you mentioned 1) are making significantly more than Hermanson, and 2) are guaranteed spots on the major league roster.

This thread isn't about them, it's about Dustin Hermanson and your apparent disdain for Krivsky signing him. Hermanson will be at worst a complete non-factor, and at best a middle reliever with some ability to help the club. He's costing them next-to-nothing, and he fills a spot in AAA not being held down by anyone else of value. It's not the end of the franchise.

It is just continuing. That's my issue with this. The Hermanson signing makes sense, independent of the other moves. Add them all together and my feeling is that he's done enough for the bullpen.

Hermanson is pretty much the straw that broke the camel's back for me I guess. It isn't a bad move, I just think that with the 3-5 starting pitchers on this team, he could go out and get Mariano and it still won't make that huge of a difference.

SunDeck
03-02-2007, 12:30 PM
I realize I have become a salty cynical complainer, but I won't be overly excited until this team can compete.

Having 3/5ths of a rotation is great based on the recent history of this franchise. But I don't think this team is on the verge of the playoffs right now.

And if you expect them to, then you are going to be dissappointed. My point is that this just needs to be put into the context of a team that has a lot of fixing to do before they can be a bona fide playoff contender. The ineptitude that preceded Castellini and Krivsky and that destroyed their prospect develoment simply cannot be repaired in two seasons. Frankly, if the Reds finish fourth this year, but have a farm system and a group of pitching prospects that shows signs of heading in the right direction I will not be dissappointed at all.
Would I like them to be in the pennant race? Heck yeah, and if they are close in July I will want them to make moves to finish out the year strong. But I am more concerned right now with having the entire club develop into less of a fiasco than they have been over the last half a decade.

Falls City Beer
03-02-2007, 01:12 PM
The problem isn't that he'll be this year's McCracken. The problem is that he'll be this year's Hammond or White. They stuck around plenty long enough to do irreparable damage.

Hermanson may be better than both of the above men, but then, he may be worse. And his "name" just might keep him around a lot longer than he deserves to be.

TRF
03-02-2007, 01:12 PM
What I want to know is why Krivsky got Phillips, a proven head-case and underachiever when we already have 3 second basemen in Freel, Aurilia, and Jimenez? And for that matter, what's up with acquiring David Ross? Helllllooooo, we have two excellent ML catchers already in Larue and Valentin, and Ross is wimpy, wimpy, wimpy with the stick. And the big ma-moo, could Wayne get no more than middling starter Bronson Arroyo for one of the best power prospects in the game? What is Wayne smoking?

I guess his head was clear when he added Joe Mays, Yan, Majewski, Franklin, Guardado (whose arm was apparently held together with masking tape) Sunny Kim, Kyle Lohse (Ramon Ortiz redux IMO) traded most of the offense, signed Juan Freaking Castro to a 2 YEAR DEAL!, combed the AARP database for as many FA relievers over 37 he could find, then signed them to multi-year deal as well, has all but named 41 year old Jeff Conine the 4th OF ahead of the younger and better Denorfrio, Made trades for the sake of trades (Brendan Harris in essence replace by Keoppinger essentially the same player. Olmedo fits in this category too.)

Nope... He was on his A game for those.


You mean 1.6% of the teams at bats and 1.6% of the teams IP shouldn't be my biggest worry?

I agree, I can go through every team in the history of the game and pull the same sort of mediocrity out of their years line.

I just pointed to a lot worse than mediocrity. I've said this before: In March and April of 2006, Krivsky put the Reds in contention for a playoff spot. Nearly everything he did after that took them out of contention.

edabbs44
03-02-2007, 01:36 PM
The problem isn't that he'll be this year's McCracken. The problem is that he'll be this year's Hammond or White. They stuck around plenty long enough to do irreparable damage.

Hermanson may be better than both of the above men, but then, he may be worse. And his "name" just might keep him around a lot longer than he deserves to be.

Disclaimer: I only put those names like Q and Mays out there because they were minor league contract guys. There were many more (like the above named disasters) who were in the same ballpark.

edabbs44
03-02-2007, 01:38 PM
And if you expect them to, then you are going to be dissappointed. My point is that this just needs to be put into the context of a team that has a lot of fixing to do before they can be a bona fide playoff contender. The ineptitude that preceded Castellini and Krivsky and that destroyed their prospect develoment simply cannot be repaired in two seasons. Frankly, if the Reds finish fourth this year, but have a farm system and a group of pitching prospects that shows signs of heading in the right direction I will not be dissappointed at all.
Would I like them to be in the pennant race? Heck yeah, and if they are close in July I will want them to make moves to finish out the year strong. But I am more concerned right now with having the entire club develop into less of a fiasco than they have been over the last half a decade.

Then what's the point of dropping millions on mediocrity when you're pretty sure that this year will not result in the post-season? Wouldn't that money be worth it elsewhere?

Falls City Beer
03-02-2007, 01:38 PM
Disclaimer: I only put those names like Q and Mays out there because they were minor league contract guys. There were many more (like the above named disasters) who were in the same ballpark.

I know. I wasn't contending with your position. I was contending with the "who cares" gang. A bunch of low-ceiling potential tends to lead to self-fulfilling prophecies, in my experience.

SunDeck
03-02-2007, 02:06 PM
Then what's the point of dropping millions on mediocrity when you're pretty sure that this year will not result in the post-season? Wouldn't that money be worth it elsewhere?

I see your point. However, the way I see it, they can drop millions on mediocrity or could have dropped tens of millions on a couple of FAs. To me, that second option was higher risk than trying to grow and repair the club more conservatively.
But that's me- I keep my money in mason jars and index funds, too.

MartyFan
03-02-2007, 02:09 PM
That's part of my issue.

Is that his main motive? If so, you can then say that he is probably not overly excited for this season as he has spent more time trying to get potential trade bait than filling the other larger holes in the team.

I don't agree...You saw what happened in the offseason with the contracts to very average players. The hope for this team is to build from within and taking flyers on these sort of pitchers...we are not bad enough to have that many good draft spots!


If he does feel that way, then why the 2 year contracts for elderly relievers and why the $14 million to the no hit shortstop? That money could have been better spent elsewhere if this year isn't exactly on his radar.

Well, the defense of the no hit shortstop makes the pitching better...Just my opinion but the two year contracts are good buys especially when you look at what happened with the contracts this offseason...who else could Special K have gotten for the 14mil this offseason to come to Cincinnati that would make a bigger impact than Gonzalez?


As he is building depth in the bullpen, there are 3 large question marks in the rotation. He should be looking for long relievers rather than potential mid-season closers.

And he did bring in long relievers, right? I mean wasn't the gripe that he was flooding the team with mediocre middle relievers just a few weeks ago? Not to mention some of the projected SP may end up being long relievers...or some of the AAAA talent we have can be in that spot.

Additionally I believe that a pitcher like Lohse and Saarloos can add something to this team...not just weight, I think they can contribute to this team as much as any other #3 and #4 pitcher.

I get what you are saying but at the end of the day I do not think this team is in as bad a shape as many others think and I also recall the saying that "Rome wasn't built in a day."

Special K has been on the job for just one year...there is no mystery to the way he operates...he builds inexpensive surplus in an area that holds potential for high return...like closers, OFers and Middle IFers.

registerthis
03-02-2007, 02:12 PM
I know. I wasn't contending with your position. I was contending with the "who cares" gang. A bunch of low-ceiling potential tends to lead to self-fulfilling prophecies, in my experience.

...and there's plenty who don't.

So, yeah, count me among the "who cares" gang. I'll fess up to the fact that signing Dustin Hermanson doesn't bother me. And I'll state right now that he won't do "irreperable damage" to this club. In fact, White and Hammond, with their 27 and 28 innings respectively, didn't either.

Falls City Beer
03-02-2007, 02:39 PM
...and there's plenty who don't.

So, yeah, count me among the "who cares" gang. I'll fess up to the fact that signing Dustin Hermanson doesn't bother me. And I'll state right now that he won't do "irreperable damage" to this club. In fact, White and Hammond, with their 27 and 28 innings respectively, didn't either.

55 innings is what one terrible reliever is likely to give you over a single season. That's 10 games' worth of terrible pitching. It hurts. It all hurts. Especially if better options exist.

I don't think the Hermanson deal is that big a deal either; it didn't cost the Reds money or prospects. But I'm not fool enough to think he couldn't turn into poison under the wrong conditions.

registerthis
03-02-2007, 02:51 PM
55 innings is what one terrible reliever is likely to give you over a single season. That's 10 games' worth of terrible pitching. It hurts. It all hurts. Especially if better options exist.

No, White and Hammond didn't help the Reds last year. But they didn't "irreperably harm" the franchise, either. They were exactly what you stated--the equivalent of one bad reliever, who stunk up the joint for awhile and as quickly jettisoned.

And, sure, Hermanson *might* turn out similarly. Or he might not. Either way, it's a minor league deal that adds a body to an already-crowded pen. I highly doubt that, even under the worst of circumstances, Hermanson will be given even 20 innings at the major league level if he pitches anywhere near the level of a White, Hammond or Mays.

Johnny Footstool
03-02-2007, 02:52 PM
If his arm were truly electric there would be no question. BA doesn't think so. The Reds didn't think so while he was mired in the minors all these years.

This is why you have scouts. If AAA statistics were all that mattered, Chris Booker would be an all-star. And while Salmon seems to have good velocity, that's not the entire equation either.

So before we annoint this guy or any other similar young pitcher, let's see how he does this spring. He deserves a full shot in spring training.

So the 10 innings he gets in spring training games will outweigh the stellar 57 2/3 innings he pitched in Louisville? He allowed only 36 hits in 57 2/3 innings and struck out 72 while walking only 24. Those are fantastic numbers indicating that he has turned a corner in his development.

It seems to me that if a guy proves himself to that degree, he earns more than a spring training look.

Kc61
03-02-2007, 04:59 PM
So the 10 innings he gets in spring training games will outweigh the stellar 57 2/3 innings he pitched in Louisville? He allowed only 36 hits in 57 2/3 innings and struck out 72 while walking only 24. Those are fantastic numbers indicating that he has turned a corner in his development.

It seems to me that if a guy proves himself to that degree, he earns more than a spring training look.

Or maybe it indicates that at age 26-27 he has learned to get AAA hitters out. It may indicate that he should make the AAA all-star team. But I leave it to the scouts to determine if he is a true candidate to get out major league hitters. He hasn't "earned" anything, unless the scouts and front office agree that he belongs in the big leagues.

Johnny Footstool
03-02-2007, 05:31 PM
Or maybe it indicates that at age 26-27 he has learned to get AAA hitters out. It may indicate that he should make the AAA all-star team. But I leave it to the scouts to determine if he is a true candidate to get out major league hitters. He hasn't "earned" anything, unless the scouts and front office agree that he belongs in the big leagues.

The thing is, those scouts and front office personnel are predisposed to choose a "proven veteran" like Hermanson over a guy like Salmon based on nothing more than name recognition. Salmon could have a good spring and still get sent down to make room for Hermanson. That would be a travesty.

BRM
03-02-2007, 05:52 PM
Salmon could have a good spring and still get sent down to make room for Hermanson. That would be a travesty.

Which I expect to happen. Not necessarily for Hermanson but I fully expect Salmon to start the season in Louisville even with a good spring. A guy like Salmon needs a dominating spring to make the club. A good one just means he's first or second in line for a callup when the inevitable injury occurs.

Wheelhouse
03-03-2007, 12:40 AM
Get back with me when you can attribute those 2.5 games to the guys you listed above.

Every team has menial players who take up a menial amount of playing time and offer a menial amount of production. You're free to get your dander up over them if you wish. Me, I've got bigger fish to fry.

Forgive me for saying so because I am pro Wayne, but IMHO 3.5 games could be lost in four pitches, let alone four ABs or innings. I think a bad player on the club is, well, bad. So McCracken was a failure. The LOUSY guy from the Nationals who played SS (I can't remember his name) being wheeled out by Narron so much--ugh. What bugs me is the players that some on the board claim hurt the team, when they are actually assets: I'm remembering the ENDLESS wailings against Aurilia, and trolling a superb defensive specialist like Castro. Seems a lot of people who have a statistical appreciation of the game work backwards: they try to make the game fit their new statistical categories, rather than questioning the validity of new-jack numbers that don't seem to recognize some clearly valuable players. Like scientists looking for a neat answer to the universe, they may be confounded at every turn.

Ltlabner
03-03-2007, 08:21 AM
That's my prediction. He's not going to win this year with the team he is assembling, so why bother with most of his off-season moves?.

Yea, let's not even bother with, you know, playing the season. We all know it's over now. :rolleyes:

Fact is, whether you are going to be in the world series or not (as if it could be predicted) you have to build for the now and the future at the same time. Some moves move you one inch closer to being competitive, some moves a few feet, and others a mile or two. We all want every move to be a mile closer to the goal, when in fact, most of the moves are small steps forward.

Ltlabner
03-03-2007, 08:33 AM
The thing is, those scouts and front office personnel are predisposed to choose a "proven veteran" like Hermanson over a guy like Salmon based on nothing more than name recognition. Salmon could have a good spring and still get sent down to make room for Hermanson. That would be a travesty.

Funny how Salmon has one good year and it makes him worthy of a spot on the staff. How many times has 'carear year' been slapped on a player around here to dismiss one solid year? Now one good year for this guy is proof that he's worth a chance dispite being projected to post an era above 5, a 1.57 WHIP, 4.4 BB/9, 6.6 K/9 with no real chance of improvement?

One point I will agree with you on is that management types are going to be more likely to error on the side of experience over potential. Right or wrong, people put more weight on 'used to be able to do it' over 'he might do it'.

OnBaseMachine
03-03-2007, 09:38 AM
Hermanson works hard, has fun
Click-2-Listen
By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

Saturday, March 03, 2007

FORT MYERS, Fla. Dustin Hermanson was standing upright and walking without flinching Friday after taking five airline flights in two days, so his back must be iron-strong. Hermanson, the Springfield Kenton Ridge High School graduate signed by the Cincinnati Reds on Thursday, must prove that his back can withstand the rigors of pitching, after he missed most of last season with the Chicago White Sox.

Hermanson says the back isn't fully healthy and might never be, but he has learned how to make it behave.

"I had to find a (workout) routine that worked for me to strengthen my back," he said. "I found something last year about a month before camp, but I needed three months to get ready. They told me to stay down there (rehab in the minors) because they needed me more in the second half. I was ready in August, but the White Sox weren't ready to make a move because nobody was doing terrible. I'm thinking, 'What am I supposed to do? I worked hard to get back.' I understood and didn't come back until September, even though I was ready in August, and that's where all the concerns were."

Hermanson now has a daily regimen that he follows religiously and said, "You won't see me playing cards before games because I'll be doing my workouts. But that's OK. I'll do whatever it takes to keep me in the big leagues.

"I'm here to compete, but I want to have fun, too," he said. "I've learned since my back injury that I didn't have as much fun as I should have, actually put too much pressure on myself and (didn't) enjoy it. It wasn't in a bad way, but I took it all too seriously and didn't enjoy what I had. The only way to play is to have fun and enjoy it, and that way you get the ultimate best out of yourself."

Hermanson was a successful closer two years ago for the Chicago White Sox, posting 34 saves until his back rebelled and he couldn't finish the season, couldn't enjoy the World Series the White Sox won.

"I'm not coming in here saying I want to be a closer," he said. "Whatever they want me to do, I'm up for it close, setup, short relief, whatever. I think I have a lot more to offer, but most teams weren't willing to take a chance on me because of reports about my back."

Griffey report

Ken Griffey Jr. said his first batting practice session of the spring, done Thursday against coaches, "Was all right, but wasn't without pain. We're still, more or less, trying to get the (left) hand strong. I just rolled my hands over and hit a few ground balls."

Reds manager Jerry Narron didn't see the session but said, "He told me he didn't hold anything back, but he was not 100 percent and there was some pain. But it was great he didn't hold anything back."

Educating Homer

Established Reds starter Bronson Arroyo pitches in a 'B' game at 10 a.m. Sunday on a back field in Bradenton's Pirate City, while 20-year-old Homer Bailey starts the regular game in Bradenton against the Pirates at 1 p.m.

Why?

"It is part of Homer Bailey's development," said Narron. "Just one more small step. He gets to start in a major-league exhibition game.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2007/03/03/ddn030307redsnotes.html

buckeyenut
03-03-2007, 09:40 AM
I love moves like this.

These vets that have had some prior success are ripe for flipping in June and July if they start good. Teams always need relievers and love established veteran relievers having a good year. It is a nice way to, at a low cost, have an opportunity to pick up some young talent in trade if you happen to be out of the race. They won't all hit, but if they don't, you throw them away and try out the next guy.

Sure, we'd all love to have the young stud fireballer out in the pen, but those guys don't grow on trees, so this seems to me to be a decent fallback strategy.

edabbs44
03-03-2007, 10:16 AM
Yea, let's not even bother with, you know, playing the season. We all know it's over now. :rolleyes:

Fact is, whether you are going to be in the world series or not (as if it could be predicted) you have to build for the now and the future at the same time. Some moves move you one inch closer to being competitive, some moves a few feet, and others a mile or two. We all want every move to be a mile closer to the goal, when in fact, most of the moves are small steps forward.

When you have a limited budget, it is tough to build for the now and for the future. And if you are unable (for whatever reason) to make a serious run at the now, then why bother?

The front office has a chance to make a huge statement come draft time. The last time they had a chance even close to this (2002), they went cheap.

1st round (3rd overall): Gruler (no explanation needed. Kazmir, anyone?)

1st round supplemental (40th overall): Schramek (Disaster. Signed for $200k when following pick signed for $915k. Look at names in 2nd round below.)

2nd round (44th overall) : Votto (Obviously working out very well, but signed for $600k when following player went for $800k. Other players who went later in 2nd round who signed for more are Jon Lester, Brian McCann, Jonathan Broxton, Jesse Crain and David Bush.)

3rd round (75th overall): Edens (I guess we can consider this a success when he turned into Yan. Signed for $300k when Dukes went one pick before him for $500k.)

I guess I will have to wait to hold final judgement on being turned off by moves like these. If this year's draft looks like 2002 where they went cheap, then this offseason will look twice as bad. If they don't cheap out during the draft and draft the best player available, then it is the prerogative of the front office to waste their money on retreads like these guys.

I just don't want this team to forget about the future (i.e., draft) to shoot for a pipe dream (i.e., 2007 season).

Johnny Footstool
03-03-2007, 08:05 PM
Funny how Salmon has one good year and it makes him worthy of a spot on the staff. How many times has 'carear year' been slapped on a player around here to dismiss one solid year? Now one good year for this guy is proof that he's worth a chance dispite being projected to post an era above 5, a 1.57 WHIP, 4.4 BB/9, 6.6 K/9 with no real chance of improvement?

Hermanson doesn't project any better, and Salmon has a much better chance to break out. I'll take Salmon's one good year over the last few mediocre years Hermanson has put up.


One point I will agree with you on is that management types are going to be more likely to error on the side of experience over potential. Right or wrong, people put more weight on 'used to be able to do it' over 'he might do it'.

For Krivsky, the scales seem to be seriously tipped in that direction.

WVRedsFan
03-03-2007, 08:30 PM
Hermanson doesn't project any better, and Salmon has a much better chance to break out. I'll take Salmon's one good year over the last few mediocre years Hermanson has put up.



For Krivsky, the scales seem to be seriously tipped in that direction.

Yeah. When our new owner proclaimed after purchasing the Reds that we were going to compete now, I had no idea he was going to allow his GM to stock the club with retreads that obviously no one else wanted.

jojo
03-03-2007, 08:55 PM
Seems a lot of people who have a statistical appreciation of the game work backwards: they try to make the game fit their new statistical categories, rather than questioning the validity of new-jack numbers that don't seem to recognize some clearly valuable players. Like scientists looking for a neat answer to the universe, they may be confounded at every turn.

First, I'd suggest you have an incorrect perception of the goals of science.....

Second, I don't think statheads work backwards. Rather I think sometimes they are guilty of overreaching with their conclusions/under emphasizing the limitations of their approach.... Occasionally statheads can be overconfident and dare I say, argumentative?

While the data never lies, the interpretation can be more or less reliable. I don't see that as a flaw by the way.... My bias: stats>eyes. While that can be argued, I doubt anyone would disagree with stats+eyes>eyes or stats+eyes> stats.

Chip R
03-04-2007, 12:07 AM
I don't have a problem with signing these guys to minor league contracts provided they stay in the minors. Once they are called up, they have to be placed on the 40 man roster which means someone has to go. Now it's all well and good if the player he replaces can go on the 60 day DL or if the guy he replaces was so bad that releasing him is no big deal. But if the player who he replaces is a guy like Salmon or even someone like Deno, then that's a problem.

MartyFan
03-04-2007, 01:09 AM
What is this "high reward" people assume Hermanson can provide? From where I sit, his highest ceiling is "average middle reliever."

I find it frustrating that Wayne preaches "pitching and defense", then signs a boatload of ancient relievers with very limited upside AND passes the buck when it comes to moving Griffey out of CF. Calling Dustin Hermanson and Jeff Conine "depth" is laughable -- they're barely-servicable major leaguers with some name recognition.

Fortunately where you sit is watching the team and commenting on it the same as I do along with a few hundred other people...so, potato-pototo it's all just opinion...the ceiling on Hermanson is that he could have another year where he has a 2.something era and pitches effectively out of the pen. If you looked at the ridiculous prices that starting pitchers and relievers got this off season you know that the Minor League deal where he can earn a potential 500k is a huge benefit to the Reds if he makes the team and pitches that way...if not...write him off and go to the next guy.

As for Conine, he is serviceable pro and can influence the younger players...and yes, that is important because attitude is everything and there has not been a team to win that was not made up of people who at one time or another have tasted victory.

But that's just where I sit.

Johnny Footstool
03-04-2007, 05:08 PM
Fortunately where you sit is watching the team and commenting on it the same as I do along with a few hundred other people...so, potato-pototo it's all just opinion...the ceiling on Hermanson is that he could have another year where he has a 2.something era and pitches effectively out of the pen.

Other than wishful thinking, is there anything that tells you there's a remote chance of that happening? Sure, I'd love to see him put up an ERA in the 2's, but I'd also love to win the lottery. The odds are about the same.


If you looked at the ridiculous prices that starting pitchers and relievers got this off season you know that the Minor League deal where he can earn a potential 500k is a huge benefit to the Reds if he makes the team and pitches that way...if not...write him off and go to the next guy.

A guy like Salmon is cheaper and already in the system. And just because prices are high doesn't mean you need to stock up on retreads.

As I said, I'd love for Hermanson to do well, but I'd hate it if he prevented a guy like Salmon from making the team simply because he's a "proven veteran."


As for Conine, he is serviceable pro and can influence the younger players...and yes, that is important because attitude is everything and there has not been a team to win that was not made up of people who at one time or another have tasted victory.

Then hire him as a coach and don't waste ABs on him.

mth123
03-04-2007, 05:24 PM
And just because prices are high doesn't mean you need to stock up on retreads.


My favorite line in the entire thread.

redsmetz
03-04-2007, 05:51 PM
My favorite line in the entire thread.

I'm late to the discussion, but it occurs to me that "retread" is not always a bad thing. The vast majority of truck tires out on the road are, in fact, retreads. They get the job done, most of the time, well. Yes, on occasion one will come undone, but for the most part, they're working and they're working well. We'll see how our retreads do, but I'm think there might be some miles left in them.

jojo
03-04-2007, 06:45 PM
The thing with Dustin is several teams took long looks at him and after finding out he has lost velocity, they took passes.

I don't care that much that the reds are taking a flyer on him. But I think he has to be considered a long shot.

Jr's Boy
03-04-2007, 10:55 PM
What speed is he still hitting on the radar gun you think?

edabbs44
03-05-2007, 07:51 AM
What speed is he still hitting on the radar gun you think?

Last I heard it was mid to high 80s.

GAC
03-05-2007, 07:57 AM
Last I heard it was mid to high 80s.

If that is true, then that isn't so bad IF he can adapt/learn to change speeds and spot his pitches.

But like some on here, I don't see any harm, or great investment, being placed in signing Dustin.

Red Leader
03-05-2007, 09:36 AM
What speed is he still hitting on the radar gun you think?

Last I heard (last week) he had days where he could throw in the low 90's with minimal effort. He also had days where it took maximum effort to reach 87. It's all about his back. I have heard that he's at about 90% with his velocity. It's not all the way back, though. He expects it to take a little while longer to build up his arm strength to where it was before, but he didn't have any doubts he could get to where he was before.

The problem I see is that he has always been a power pitcher. Always. He's going to take his lumps if he doesn't have his usual fastball. He's going to go to it (like he always did) when he needs to and it won't be the same. It will get hit. That's going to take an adjustment period on his part to learn to pitch instead of just throw.