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GAC
03-01-2007, 07:50 PM
I was just watching the local news and they had a story on the "fight" in Seattle over building a proposed Nascar track. There are of course pros and cons to the issue. Many protest it because of the pollution they say it will bring, as well as disturbing the peace, tranquility, and the quality of life. Others argue the economic impact and job creation, as well as the entertainment aspect (fans).

But what amazed me were the "on the street" interviews they showed, and the people's perception and stereotyping of Nascar and it's fans. Conversations peppered with terminology such as redneck, pot-bellied, toothless losers, and white trash.

If any other group or class of people were described and stereotyped in that way there would be outrage.

I haven't followed Nascar in over 30 years. I was a huge Petty fan, and my brother (who is still an avid fan, and still has all his teeth) was a David Pearson fan. Some of the above may have been true then, since it's origins are from the south, and that was where a majority of the races/tracks were located. But it's now become the fastest growing sport in the US, and has really expanded/broadened it's fan base.

Joseph
03-01-2007, 08:02 PM
I don't mean to get into a whole philosophical debate here, but you are right, white trash is one of those phrases that doesn't hold the same heft as other racially motivated terms, even though it's just as bad. Being that this is a family board I won't say those names, but we all know them. Its sad that such stereotyping still exists, but I suspect it will be a long while before all such commentary is erased from the lexicon of the average American.

GAC
03-01-2007, 08:13 PM
I forgot to post a link to the story I found on this debate....

http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_022007SPBnascartrackSW.1c8ab5d4.html

I can understand and sympathize with some of the people of the regions concerns. It's just the stereotypical views that bother me.

We built a new airport outside of town about 5 years ago. A "movement" was started to take the old airport strip and convert it into a drag strip. It was shelved because a lot of people in the immediate area were concerned about the noise and also the "type" of people it would attract. Now I completely understood the noise concern; but what "type" of people were they concerned about? That bothered me. Who, or what type of people do they think race fans are?

If it was CART or Indy style, then that would be OK, because those types of fans are more sophisticated?

Falls City Beer
03-01-2007, 08:18 PM
Peanut Gallery. Cuz I gotta lot to say on this issue, and it ain't gonna be pretty. So if this stays open, I'm a-talkin'.

GAC
03-01-2007, 08:23 PM
Peanut Gallery. Cuz I gotta lot to say on this issue, and it ain't gonna be pretty. So if this stays open, I'm a-talkin'.

There is nothing political (Dem/Repub) or religious to this discussion IMO.

Falls City Beer
03-01-2007, 08:26 PM
There is nothing political (Dem/Repub) or religious to this discussion IMO.

Okay.

But saying "white trash" has the same power as saying "n----r" is just f-in stupid.

There. Now it's political.

GAC
03-01-2007, 08:46 PM
Okay.

But saying "white trash" has the same power as saying "n----r" is just f-in stupid.

There. Now it's political.

No. It's still not. But obviously you want it to be. ;)

I'm talking about stereotypes, and how some seem to be more acceptable then others. And it can be done without having any type of political connotation/partisanship.

Have you read where New York City is set to ban a racist term that we can only describe as the "N-word"?

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/02/new_york_set_to.html

Why just that one word? So are all the other types of slurs/derogatory terms then acceptable?

Falls City Beer
03-01-2007, 08:48 PM
No. It's still not. But obviously you want it to be. ;)

It's talking about stereotypes, and how some seem to be more acceptable then others.

Have you read where New York City is set to ban a racist term that we can only describe as the "N-word"?

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/02/new_york_set_to.html

Why just that one word? So are all the other types of slurs/derogatory terms then acceptable?

White trash is a worldview, not a race. And yes, all racist epithets are equally unacceptable. But calling someone white trash isn't racism. Period.

Joseph
03-01-2007, 08:49 PM
Edit: misread, ignore

GAC
03-01-2007, 08:56 PM
White trash is worldview, not a race. And yes, all racist epithets are equally unacceptable. But calling someone white trash isn't racism. Period.

First off FC. Where did I say it was racism? I didn't. Especially since some of the people using the term, in the TV interview, were white.

But it is a derogatory slur/stereotype against a segment and particular region of this country (the South). Using derogatory language to describe homosexuals is not racism, yet it is still wrong and inappropriate.

Falls City Beer
03-01-2007, 08:58 PM
First off FC. Where did I say it was racism? I didn't. Especially since some of the people using the term, in the TV interview, were white.

But it is a derogatory slur/stereotype against a segment and particular region of this country (the South). Using derogatory language to describe homosexuals is not racism, yet it is still wrong and inappropriate.

Homosexuality = not a choice

Willfully ignorant and defiantly hateful = choice

pedro
03-01-2007, 08:59 PM
I'm not too worried about white people, especially men, getting picked on, however unwarranted.

Our uninterrupted reign of terror must end some day :)

GAC
03-01-2007, 09:14 PM
Homosexuality = not a choice

Willfully ignorant and defiantly hateful = choice

Choice/non-choice.... that is YOUR opinion.

That is not the issue FCB; but you're doing your best to try and turn this thread political and get it shut down. And I'm sure you'll succeed.

It's about hateful stereotypes/language. So it's perfectly OK to insult and offend certain regions and/or segments of our society/country; but it's off limits in other areas.


I'm not too worried about white people, especially men, getting picked on, however unwarranted.

Our uninterrupted reign of terror must end some day :)

Do you wake up everyday with guilt, and lamenting the fact you were born Caucasian? :lol:

Dracodave
03-01-2007, 09:18 PM
Thats why me and bunch of my friends...will not call ourselves white anymore.

We call ourselves crackers/wheat thins. It's just one of those things.

White trash doesn't equal racist. It's just a term used to view low-end white living. Redneck/Hick/White trash to me have the same barring as if I were to call you ignorant, psuedo intelligent or insipid.

Cedric
03-01-2007, 09:20 PM
I'm worried about all unjustified labels.

And that's all GAC was talking about in his first post. There is no excuse for generalized stereotyping.

It's possible that we all have done it, doesn't make it more justified or right.

RedsBaron
03-01-2007, 09:26 PM
I'm worried about all unjustified labels.

And that's all GAC was talking about in his first post. There is no excuse for generalized stereotyping.

It's possible that we all have done it, doesn't make it more justified or right.

I agree totally. Yes, I suspect pretty much everyone, me included, has engaged in unjustified stereotyping.

RedFanAlways1966
03-01-2007, 09:32 PM
But what amazed me were the "on the street" interviews they showed, and the people's perception and stereotyping of Nascar and it's fans. Conversations peppered with terminology such as redneck, pot-bellied, toothless losers, and white trash.

Really? If I not mistaken, Seattle has a MLB team, an NFL team and an NBA team. Not sure b/c I am an occasional NASCAR watcher (not a huge fan), but I cannot recall any riots or disruptions due to fans in NASCAR. Maybe it has happened, but not anymore than the sports that Seattle has today. The pro sports that Seattle has (to name a few)...

MLB: Geez... anyone remember Dodgers at Cubs in the bullpen?
NFL: Geez... anyone remember the beer bottle melee at Cleveland?
NBA: Geez... anyone remember Indiana (Ron Artest) at Detroit?

I wonder if these on the street people also wish that the Mariners, the Seahawks and the Sonics get out of town due to unruly fans that like those sports?

I am sure all pro sports have crimes around their events... muggings, etc. However, I'd say it is safe to say that NASCAR events do not have many more than other pro sports in the course of an entire season of each sport. It also seems that the NASCAR drivers live more of a crime-free life than players in the Seattle sports. Granted there are a lot fewer drivers than members of other sports, but I'd like to see the percentage of NASCAR drivers who have been arrested vs. the percentage of other pro sports athletes. Believe it or not the players/drivers are seen as idols by the youth of society (sorry, Sir Charles!).

Betterread
03-01-2007, 09:45 PM
Do you wake up everyday with guilt, and lamenting the fact you were born Caucasian? :lol:

There is no defined genetic definition of race, let alone a Caucasian race,
With the turn away from racial theory in the late 20th century the term "Caucasian" as a racial classification fell into disuse in Europe. Thus, in The United Kingdom, "Caucasian" is more likely than in the United States to refer to people from the Caucasus.
In Canada, the term "Caucasian" is known, but rarely used as a description of white people. In Australia and New Zealand, the term "Caucasian" is mainly used in police offender descriptions. In New Zealand, the terms more commonly used to describe white people are Pākehā, European New Zealander, or simply New Zealander (although in theory this should include all citizens or residents of the country).
In the United States, "Caucasian" has primarily been used as a distinction based on skin color, for a group commonly referred to as White Americans, as defined by the government and Census Bureau.

westofyou
03-01-2007, 09:46 PM
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/304276_edit2.html


NASCAR Track: Crash and burn

House Bill 2062 -- aka the NASCAR bill -- will finally get a hearing today, and we sincerely hope it crashes and burns. And no, this wish has nothing to do with any sort of high brow, Seattle snobbery.

The request that Washington state kick in millions in public funding (as much as $145 million) for a professional motor-sports track while letting the International Speedway Corp. off the hook for forest land compensation taxes is a huge concern. It seems the bill's backers are willing to let some important things slide in an effort to bring us NASCAR, which Lt. Gov. Brad Owen has compared to "bringing two Super Bowls" to Kitsap County. Sure, bringing the loud, polluting 83,000-seat NASCAR track might be an economic boost, but at what expense? And, all this work and expense for two races a year? Is it worth it to protect the serenity and beauty of an area in exchange for more jobs? And why is it that a fat-cat entity such as the ISC, which for this fiscal year expects to earn close to $820 million (never mind the billions it is projected to earn in broadcast agreements), requires public funding?

We really don't see why the Legislature should invoke the emergency clause attached to HB2062, which states that the "act is necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health, or safety, or support of the state government," rushing the measure into effect by July. What's the rush?

FYI here's the county that the proposal targets as the location

http://www.kccha.com/images/about/county1.gif

RedFanAlways1966
03-01-2007, 10:02 PM
Sure, bringing the loud, polluting 83,000-seat NASCAR track might be an economic boost, but at what expense? And, all this work and expense for two races a year?

Sounds kind of contradictory... loud and polluting, but only two races. How loud and how polluting can two races per year bring to the area? The article brings in loudness and pollution to say no to the bill, but then also tries to say no to the bill by saying it will only have two races. Contradictory? Will there be more noise in one race than the Seattle airport has in a single day of airline flights? Will there be more pollution in one race than the congested traffic brings at rush hour on each Friday afternoon?

I am not for it or against it. Frankly I do not care. But I do not like the contradictions in the article. I also do not think the state should have to pay for this. If they want it in Seattle and need cash to do it, then that county should pay that money. And the people in that county should have it on their ballot. Not the state and not the legislators for the whole state. It should be like it is done for most of the new NFL and MLB stadiums. People in Columbus and Cleveland (technically) did not pay or vote for GABP or PBS in Cincy.

westofyou
03-01-2007, 10:09 PM
How loud and how polluting can two races per year bring to the area? Well there will be 83 thousand people hitting the area on those two days, that is probably the generator of more waste and pollution then the actual car race. Plus it being a peninsula that is more known for its coastline and nature there is limited areas that will be taking most of the impact of the visitors, that includes the limited roads that go up there.

RedFanAlways1966
03-01-2007, 10:16 PM
Well there will be 83 thousand people hitting the area on those two days, that is probably the generator of more waste and pollution then the actual car race. Plus it being a peninsula that is more known for its coastline and nature there is limited areas that will be taking most of the impact of the visitors, that includes the limited roads that go up there.

Good points, woy. I am not sure of the Seahawks stadium capacity, but I do know that they play 8 regular season games and 2 pre-season games at home each year. And perhaps a playoff game or two at home in recent years. My guess would be a minumum of 60,000 people in that stadium for each game. At that number it would equate to over a half million people per year. Makes 166,000 seem rather small.

The peninsula thing with the traffic problem is one that I cannot refute. And nothing should interfere with the main reasons that visitors come to a certain area. We don't have those problems with I-70 and I-75 in my neck of the woods... and only a great Air Force museum to visit!

marcshoe
03-01-2007, 10:49 PM
fwiw, I've heard the exact things said about a proposed WalMart Supercenter.

Oh, and I don't like NASCAR because it's a slick, Literally ad-driven pseudo-sport. It reminds me of the MOR junk they pass off as country music these days.

When they took points away from Dale Junior for cussing in an after-race interview a couple of years ago, that pretty much did it for me. Fine him, but don't do something that negates what he did on the "playing field". When you do things like this, your product (good word for NASCAR) ceases being a sport.

And I'm from rural West Virginia (Lincoln County, even), so I'm not exactly going to be repelled because of the so-called white trash element (and no, I don't care for the label either--I could tell some stories of real discrimination beacuse of these assumptions, even though it's nothing that even approaches the extremes of racial discrimination).

RedFanAlways1966
03-01-2007, 10:58 PM
When they took points away from Dale Junior for cussing in an after-race interview a couple of years ago, that pretty much did it for me. Fine him, but don't do something that negates what he did on the "playing field". When you do things like this, your product (good word for NASCAR) ceases being a sport.

Not that I disagree with MLB, but they did the "same sort of thing" to John Rocker after his SI ignorance. Nothing happened on the field, but he got suspended (and fined).

I guess NASCAR tends to lean towards the family-friendly image thing. I didn't think the point deuction was justified on Dale Jr. either, but I think NASCAR lets their participants know about the public-image thing each season. Kind of like MLB lets it's participants know about the penalty for gambling on MLB (oops... don't go there!). :)

marcshoe
03-01-2007, 11:01 PM
They didn't take runs away from the Braves in the previous game they had played. That's what NASCAR did. Fine all you want; suspend for future races if you want, but don't change the results of a completed race for a non-race related incident.

btw, I mentioned on another board that I was feeling very grouchy tonight; I dont' know why. Now I'm proving it. :D

RedFanAlways1966
03-01-2007, 11:08 PM
Ah... if this is grumpy, you aren't that bad. You are right about the runs taken vs. the points taken. And the way Rocker was going at that point in his career it probably kept the Braves runs allowed down!

paintmered
03-01-2007, 11:17 PM
The day NASCAR starts turning right on a regular basis is the day I start liking it.

Signed,
Open wheel racing fan.

macro
03-01-2007, 11:48 PM
As for there being only two events a year at a given track...many of the new tracks are set up to host several events featuring different types of vehicles and different types of racing. Some have road courses built into the infield and others have smaller ovals within the main oval. I find it hard to believe that this wouldn't be the case at this facility, as well.

George Anderson
03-02-2007, 12:12 AM
I was just watching the local news and they had a story on the "fight" in Seattle over building a proposed Nascar track. There are of course pros and cons to the issue. Many protest it because of the pollution they say it will bring, as well as disturbing the peace, tranquility, and the quality of life. Others argue the economic impact and job creation, as well as the entertainment aspect (fans).

But what amazed me were the "on the street" interviews they showed, and the people's perception and stereotyping of Nascar and it's fans. Conversations peppered with terminology such as redneck, pot-bellied, toothless losers, and white trash.

If any other group or class of people were described and stereotyped in that way there would be outrage.

I haven't followed Nascar in over 30 years. I was a huge Petty fan, and my brother (who is still an avid fan, and still has all his teeth) was a David Pearson fan. Some of the above may have been true then, since it's origins are from the south, and that was where a majority of the races/tracks were located. But it's now become the fastest growing sport in the US, and has really expanded/broadened it's fan base.

I think if you havent noticed by now there is a huge double standard in society today when dealing with certain racial groups and classes of people. As long as the media in this country and that includes the sports reporters let this double standard exist, there is little we can do about it except try to educate the masses as best we can.

pedro
03-02-2007, 03:20 AM
Do you wake up everyday with guilt, and lamenting the fact you were born Caucasian? :lol:

I think you'd be surprised just how guilt free I feel GAC.

RedsBaron
03-02-2007, 05:40 AM
And I'm from rural West Virginia (Lincoln County, even), so I'm not exactly going to be repelled because of the so-called white trash element (and no, I don't care for the label either--I could tell some stories of real discrimination beacuse of these assumptions, even though it's nothing that even approaches the extremes of racial discrimination).

I live in Wayne County, so I can identify with your post. The discrimination and stereotyping faced by so-called "white trash" and by West Virginians in general doesn't come close to that faced by certain racial minorities, such as African-Americans, or other groups perhaps.........but it drives me up the wall all the same. Virgina's new Senator, James Webb, recently touched on the subject in his book on the Scots-Irish, "Born Fighting."

RANDY IN INDY
03-02-2007, 08:17 AM
I, too, am from rural West Virginia (Cabell Co.) and have lived in the midst of NASCAR, near Richmond, VA, and Charlotte, NC. I have heard nearly every derogatory comment about my West Virginia roots that can be invented, and although most are said, jokingly, it gets very old and can be somewhat hurtful if said in the wrong company. I can't help where I was born and I am proud of my West Virginia roots. It may not come close to what racial minorities face, but it is, nevertheless, quite constant and gives you a real good idea of what racial minorities have endured. I must say that I hear many more derogatory comments about my roots, here in south Charlotte, than I ever hear about racial minorities, and the comments are never even looked on as being ugly or hurtful. Catch me in the wrong mood and I can get rather surly about it. Just as in racism, it is very easy for unaffected people to say that it doesn't compare or isn't nearly as bad.

As far as NASCAR goes, if people enjoy it, I have no problem with it.

Roy Tucker
03-02-2007, 08:33 AM
Once the weather gets warm, the Kentucky Speedway gets several weekends of racing June-September. The don't have have a Nextel Cup race but they have everything else.

It is a bit like a plague of locusts that descend upon the racetrack though. Not that NASCAR racing fans aren't good citizens (they are), it's just the sheer volume of cars and RVs that jam the highways all around the track for the weekend. I don't know what the track capacity is, but you fill the infield and stands and its a boatload of people.

It is built out in the middle of nowhere so there really isn't much of a local populace that gets disturbed. And the people that are there are grateful for the economic boost.

Ltlabner
03-02-2007, 08:55 AM
But it is a derogatory slur/stereotype against a segment and particular region of this country (the South).

I've always found it interesting that some excuse derogatory and insulting langage for group A because it's "not as serrious" as what group B has had to endure.

That makes about as much sense as saying it's ok to poke a complete stranger in the eye, because it's not as serrious as bonking them in the head with a pipe wrench.

Derogatory and insulting langague for any group (how ever they are defined or categorized) is wrong...period. Regardless of what "level of serriousness" to which it rises.

pedro
03-02-2007, 11:38 AM
I'm not a fan of Nascar, mostly for the reasons outlined by Paint so eloquently (no right turns), but I did once have a roommate who was really into it and I did find the stories about how the guys were always trying to stay one step ahead of the rules pretty interesting.

Falls City Beer
03-02-2007, 11:48 AM
I've always found it interesting that some excuse derogatory and insulting langage for group A because it's "not as serrious" as what group B has had to endure.

That makes about as much sense as saying it's ok to poke a complete stranger in the eye, because it's not as serrious as bonking them in the head with a pipe wrench.

Derogatory and insulting langague for any group (how ever they are defined or categorized) is wrong...period. Regardless of what "level of serriousness" to which it rises.


Your analogy is interesting. Some white folks of Anglo-Protestant descent truly believe that the expressions "cracker," "honky," and "whitey" bear the same thunder as "n-----r" or "kike." I'd say that your analogy is flawed: saying the former words to a white person is the equivalent of hitting them with a down pillow; the latter group, the equivalent of hitting blacks and Jews with a sledgehammer.

Language is context and history. "Whitey" or "honky" has no sting to it because whitey and honky have always had the whip-hand. It's never not been that way, in the history of humanity.

I think we all can agree that insults of any kind should be avoided, but let's not live in the la-la land that says these terms are of equivalent hateful power.

flyer85
03-02-2007, 12:07 PM
"But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man."

The hatefulness(evil) of what is said is defined by what is in the individual heart.

Dom Heffner
03-02-2007, 12:11 PM
Fine him, but don't do something that negates what he did on the "playing field". When you do things like this, your product (good word for NASCAR) ceases being a sport.

I think the feeling here is that a fine isn't a deterrent. To someone who has millions, a $20,000 fine or something like it isn't going to get it stopped.

Take away points on the track, and I'll bet drivers are a little more careful what they say.

Not that I agree, that's just their philosophy, I bet.

beb30
03-02-2007, 12:14 PM
Homosexuality = not a choice



Not sure this has ever been completely proven.....

pedro
03-02-2007, 12:20 PM
Not sure this has ever been completely proven.....


I think to think otherwise is incredibly naive, but that's just me.

dsmith421
03-02-2007, 12:22 PM
I think to think otherwise is incredibly naive, but that's just me.

Yes, people often choose to join groups that are vilified by large and influential sectors of society as immoral, contrary to basic religious mores, disgusting, and unworthy of fundamental human rights.

George Anderson
03-02-2007, 12:28 PM
Yes, people often choose to join groups that are vilified by large and influential sectors of society as immoral, contrary to basic religious mores, disgusting, and unworthy of fundamental human rights.

Should we also show tolerance to pedophiles and people who practice beastiality??? If they are born this way as many claim homosexuals are, why do we not show them tolerance as well???

westofyou
03-02-2007, 12:30 PM
Should we also show tolerance to pedophiles and people who practice beastiality??? If they are born this way as many claim homosexuals are, why do we not show them tolerance as well???

Stick to the subject, you're taking this way off course and frankly you're so wrong in your mapping that you might want to GPS the rest of your thoughts on the subject.

dsmith421
03-02-2007, 12:30 PM
Should we also show tolerance to pedophiles and people who practice beastiality??? If they are born this way as many claim homosexuals are, why do we not show them tolerance as well???

If you can't see the difference, that's your fault.

Ignorance and hate are choices.

paintmered
03-02-2007, 12:43 PM
Please keep the discussion civil and on topic.

Falls City Beer
03-02-2007, 12:45 PM
Please keep the discussion civil and on topic.

Discussing racial epithetis IS on topic; I think that's the problem.

This is what happens when political threads are allowed to continue. Just sayin'.

And don't kid yourself: discussing racist/classist epithets is a political discussion, regardless whether or not the words "Democrat" or "Republican" are mixed in.

paintmered
03-02-2007, 12:50 PM
Discussing racial epithetis IS on topic; I think that's the problem.

This is what happens when political threads are allowed to continue. Just sayin'.

And don't kid yourself: discussing racist/classist epithets is a political discussion, regardless whether or not the words "Democrat" or "Republican" are mixed in.

Fair enough.