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Red Rover
03-02-2007, 04:58 PM
Is there any word on 'Lizard'? Is he throwing off the mound? Is he even at ST camp?

TRF
03-02-2007, 05:13 PM
I've seen pictures that indicate he is in camp. no word on he status though.

cincy09
03-02-2007, 05:21 PM
seems to be a forgotten man as of late

redsmetz
03-02-2007, 05:42 PM
Everyone's at camp and everyone's going full out except for Majewski and Griffey (who has started taking BP).

paintmered
03-02-2007, 05:57 PM
I'm guessing we see an article on him within the next few days.

dougdirt
03-02-2007, 07:14 PM
He is scheduled to pitch tonight.

MississippiRed
03-03-2007, 12:08 AM
He is scheduled to pitch tonight.

Good job. 2 IP, 0 H, 0 BB, 0 R. Lohse strained a hamstring, according to cincinnati.reds.mlb.com

TheWalls
03-03-2007, 11:35 AM
He'll start the season in L'ville and wait for a chance for a promotion.

HumnHilghtFreel
03-03-2007, 11:43 AM
Maybe I'm alone, but I wouldn't mind seeing him thrown in the pen for long relief.
I think with his stuff, he'd be a good guy to eat innings in the middle of games instead of having to worry about starting. Rather see him in there than the Cormier's of the world anyway.

TOBTTReds
03-03-2007, 01:16 PM
I would have loved to see him be our 5th starter. But I do like the Saarloos deal, so I'm not too upset about it. I am a big supporter of Elizardo, and I know I might be in a small crowd there.

icehole3
03-03-2007, 01:22 PM
I would have loved to see him be our 5th starter. But I do like the Saarloos deal, so I'm not too upset about it. I am a big supporter of Elizardo, and I know I might be in a small crowd there.

put me in your group as well, they way he was treated by Narron last year was a disgrace, he's so young and was not brought along like he shouldve been.

Sean_CaseyRules
03-03-2007, 01:41 PM
I am also in the Lizard group, I think that he will be a nice guy to have in the pen now because of the Saarloos deal. I have liked him for a while.

savafan
03-03-2007, 04:54 PM
I'm also in the Lizard Pen! I saw him pitch in person several times last season, and I was impressed by his poise, velocity, and movement on his pitches. I still believe he could be a very good starting pitcher for this club if given the opportunity.

mth123
03-03-2007, 08:38 PM
I would have loved to see him be our 5th starter. But I do like the Saarloos deal, so I'm not too upset about it. I am a big supporter of Elizardo, and I know I might be in a small crowd there.

Agreed. I still prefer him to Lohse.

kheidg-
03-03-2007, 10:26 PM
Agreed. I still prefer him to Lohse.

Or Milton

Superdude
03-03-2007, 10:40 PM
Throw me on the Lizard bandwagon. He pitched better than his ERA indicated and showed occasional flashes of sweetness at times last year. If he's kicked back to Louisville by a bum like Saarloos, I'll be really not happy.

TOBTTReds
03-03-2007, 11:09 PM
I'm shocked by the outporing of support. I like it though.

Falls City Beer
03-03-2007, 11:13 PM
I'd prefer to see Elizardo get more starts than Milton and Lohse combined.

redleg32
03-04-2007, 12:03 AM
He was for a while the best pitcher on the staff last year. Until he was put into the heat of a pennant race at St Louis, when the rest of the rotation was performing poorly I beleive he was called upon to stop a three game slide at the beginning of the Cardinal series and we were tied in the division. He pitched poorly and it seems like the wheels fell off after that. Maybe it was to much pressure for such a young guy. But I really like him as well.

redsrule2500
03-04-2007, 03:52 AM
Harang - Arroyo - Elizardo - Lohse - Milton

Highlifeman21
03-04-2007, 03:54 AM
I'm also in the Lizard Pen! I saw him pitch in person several times last season, and I was impressed by his poise, velocity, and movement on his pitches. I still believe he could be a very good starting pitcher for this club if given the opportunity.

No offense, but that was Elizardo Ramirez you saw on the mound?

Last time I checked, he severely lacked in both the velocity and movement categories for his pitches.

Cedric
03-04-2007, 04:48 AM
Elizardo won't make the team, and we should all be thankful for that. The love for Elizardo reminds me of the love for Jose Acevado. Neither had major league quality stuff and both were given way too much due here.

redsfanmia
03-04-2007, 08:48 AM
AAA fodder thats all, a roster filler in the minors is what Lizard is.

icehole3
03-04-2007, 08:48 AM
Im just going to giggle at that comparison, Acevedo had 2 pitches enough said.

savafan
03-04-2007, 04:32 PM
No offense, but that was Elizardo Ramirez you saw on the mound?

Last time I checked, he severely lacked in both the velocity and movement categories for his pitches.

That's what I thought too, but he looked like he was popping the catcher's mitt with his pitches, and the scoreboard had him clocked at between 91 and 94 MPH.

Highlifeman21
03-04-2007, 04:39 PM
That's what I thought too, but he looked like he was popping the catcher's mitt with his pitches, and the scoreboard had him clocked at between 91 and 94 MPH.

Say no more.

savafan
03-04-2007, 04:44 PM
Say no more.

I know, I know...

but seriously, it really did look like he was throwing harder when I saw him pitch live than watching him on television.

Highlifeman21
03-04-2007, 04:47 PM
I know, I know...

but seriously, it really did look like he was throwing harder when I saw him pitch live than watching him on television.

94's nice if it has movement...

The only thing I like about Ramirez would be his mechanics. It seems like the kid has a fairly efficient and effortless motion, but that would lead me to believe that he should have higher endurance than he current possesses.

If we're gonna keep the kid around, we should stop filling his head with dreams of starting. Turn him into some sort of righty specialist, and he just might have a place on our 25 man roster.

Superdude
03-04-2007, 09:22 PM
Ramirez throws 89-93MPH with a nice, hard curve and decent changeup. Why does everyone act like he has the worst stuff of anyone to ever reach the major leagues?

Dracodave
03-04-2007, 09:27 PM
Ramirez throws 89-93MPH with a nice, hard curve and decent changeup. Why does everyone act like he has the worst stuff of anyone to ever reach the major leagues?

Becasue people can not accept the fact the Reds are getting decent/good pitching..expecially on the young starting side of life.

Cedric
03-04-2007, 09:38 PM
Ramirez throws 89-93MPH with a nice, hard curve and decent changeup. Why does everyone act like he has the worst stuff of anyone to ever reach the major leagues?

It's a terrible change up. One of the worst I've seen at this level.

He also throws the straightest ball on the team with little ability to locate. 89-93 is nothing without location and/or movement.

Dracodave
03-04-2007, 09:39 PM
It's a terrible change up. One of the worst I've seen at this level.

He also throws the straightest ball on the team with little ability to locate. 89-93 is nothing without location and/or movement.

Thats the one thing I do like about Arroyos fast ball, it might be clocked at 88-91, but he can locate it and it does have late movement.

Sea Ray
03-04-2007, 10:44 PM
This thread is 32 posts long and nobody has yet mentioned the most important part of his 2006 scouting report... that he was injured last year. He was darn good before the shoulder tendinitis flared up. Before that he was well into the 90s with his fastball and was "easy Ramirez". Don't judge him after his shoulder troubles which, rest assured, came on well before they actually put him on the DL.

Highlifeman21
03-05-2007, 01:53 AM
Becasue people can not accept the fact the Reds are getting decent/good pitching..expecially on the young starting side of life.

Ramirez is young, that's it. He's not decent. He's not good.

He has simple mechanics, but aside from that, he has a laser straight fastball that I highly doubt consistently breaks the good side of 90, he has a horrible changeup (not even the changeup guru Mario Soto could help him), and a very hittable hanging curve. Aside from his mechanics, the only other positive about this kid is that he has a pitch sequence similar to Bronson Arroyo, in the fact that he'll throw any of his 3 bad pitches at anytime, rather than predictably throw them in the "proper" situations.

Elizardo Ramirez should be a project for the Reds, that's all. Giving this kid serious consideration for anything other than the last man out of the bullpen is just a waste of time, money, and resources.

Blitz Dorsey
03-05-2007, 02:36 AM
I'll be the dissenting opinion here. I am not a big Lizard fan. I think his fastball is as straight as can be and he is just far too hitable overall. But I think he could be a solid long reliever, or at least as good as we've got. I am by no means upset he probably won't be in the rotation though.

icehole3
03-05-2007, 07:56 AM
Ramirez is young, that's it. He's not decent. He's not good.

To say that is just wrong, all you have to do is look down at the bottom of the page and read or search this forum. Majority of the people here think he's a little better than what youre saying.

TRF
03-05-2007, 10:18 AM
Ramirez is young, that's it. He's not decent. He's not good.

He has simple mechanics, but aside from that, he has a laser straight fastball that I highly doubt consistently breaks the good side of 90, he has a horrible changeup (not even the changeup guru Mario Soto could help him), and a very hittable hanging curve. Aside from his mechanics, the only other positive about this kid is that he has a pitch sequence similar to Bronson Arroyo, in the fact that he'll throw any of his 3 bad pitches at anytime, rather than predictably throw them in the "proper" situations.

Elizardo Ramirez should be a project for the Reds, that's all. Giving this kid serious consideration for anything other than the last man out of the bullpen is just a waste of time, money, and resources.

As stated, a number of us have seen him hit as high as 94. I have a couple of times on TV, and not just the home gun. His changeup is much improved over previous years thanks to Soto and will probably be better this year. His delivery is smooth and effortless, and his upside is certainly better than Santos, Saarloos or Livingston. In fact until he developed tendonitis, He was pitching pretty well for a 23 year old guy making his first extended trip to the Major Leagues.

Highlifeman21
03-05-2007, 11:48 AM
To say that is just wrong, all you have to do is look down at the bottom of the page and read or search this forum. Majority of the people here think he's a little better than what youre saying.

Obviously everyone is entitled to their respective opinions.

I don't think Ramirez has MLB type stuff for a starter.

I've said all along the kid has great mechanics, but he just hasn't cleared the next hurdle of developing the type stuff he needs to succeed as a MLB pitcher.

I don't see much upside for this kid, honestly. He's a project, and should be treated as such. If you give him the next 2+ years in the minors at AA and AAA allowing him to try to develop more pitches, and switch him to a bullpen specialist, then he might be able to make a positive contribution for the Reds. Until then, he's just a sacrificial lamb as a 5th starter.

Might as well just go to a 4 man rotation if Elizardo Ramirez is your best 5th option.

LincolnparkRed
03-05-2007, 12:44 PM
I would give him a little more credit than that. He did strike out 10 in a game vs. Milwaukee which I am sure is not that easy to do. He also had quite a few quality starts we he came out on the losing end 3 out of 19. I would also point out that his ERA didn't start ballooning until the end of June and that he was shut down August 12 so for almost six weeks he pitched with a bum shoulder and saw his era go from a very respectable 3.6 to well over 5. Maybe he is not cy young but he is not a AA pitcher either.

icehole3
03-05-2007, 01:12 PM
Thats all Im saying as well Lincoln

shredda2000
03-05-2007, 01:37 PM
Given the right role, I believe the Lizard can contribute. Although I am not sure what that role might be at this point (long relief, righty specialist??)

kheidg-
03-05-2007, 02:39 PM
Obviously everyone is entitled to their respective opinions.

I don't think Ramirez has MLB type stuff for a starter.

I've said all along the kid has great mechanics, but he just hasn't cleared the next hurdle of developing the type stuff he needs to succeed as a MLB pitcher.

I don't see much upside for this kid, honestly. He's a project, and should be treated as such. If you give him the next 2+ years in the minors at AA and AAA allowing him to try to develop more pitches, and switch him to a bullpen specialist, then he might be able to make a positive contribution for the Reds. Until then, he's just a sacrificial lamb as a 5th starter.

Might as well just go to a 4 man rotation if Elizardo Ramirez is your best 5th option.

Your claims have no basis. EZ was our 3rd best pitcher last year until Narron ruined him. His ERA, WHIP, and quality starts up until the last 2-3 starts prove that. Back your claims up with numbers and not your "expert" opinion.

jimbo
03-05-2007, 03:19 PM
It's a terrible change up. One of the worst I've seen at this level.

He also throws the straightest ball on the team with little ability to locate. 89-93 is nothing without location and/or movement.

I guess this thread just goes to show how we all see things differently at times. I saw exactly the opposite when I saw him pitch. What I saw was an ability to put movement on the ball and to locate his pitches. I think that is why he had some success last season in the majors. For everyone who is saying he has no movement, cannot locate, and throws too slow, wouldn't you think he would have gotten totally blasted at the big league level if that was the case? We are not talking one or two games where he had some luck, he had a nice stretch of starts last season until he got hurt. You don't strikeout 10 hitters in a major league game as a fluke.

I, nor anyone here, has any thoughts that he can be a #1 starter, but he does have the talent to be a quality bottom half of the rotation starter.

Highlifeman21
03-05-2007, 04:26 PM
Your claims have no basis. EZ was our 3rd best pitcher last year until Narron ruined him. His ERA, WHIP, and quality starts up until the last 2-3 starts prove that. Back your claims up with numbers and not your "expert" opinion.

I can tell you that he had exactly 4 quality starts where he went more than 6.0 IP, although I believe quality starts to be a completely useless stat, especially when comparing pitchers within the same rotation.

The kid doesn't have the endurance to be a starter, that was obvious by his almost 90 pitches per game started. When you factor that into Ramirez going only 103 IP in 19 GS, that means he averaged under 6 IP per start. So, approximately 89 pitches per start over those 19 starts spanning 103 IP, means he averaged just over 16 pitches per inning. Obviously he isn't fooling many hitters, and he's having to use a lot of pitches to end innings. Let's also not forget the fact that only 12 times out of his 19 starts, did he go at least 6.0 IP.

Let's look at EZ's ERA and WHIP minus the month of August....

44 ER over 95 IP = 4.17 ERA (his record was 4-6 over those 95 IP)
20 BB + 104 H over 95 IP = 1.31 WHIP

While his ERA was respectable over those 95 IP and 16 starts, he didn't go deep into ballgames and left our bullpen to decide his fate. Now is that EZ's fault? Yes and no. If he can go deeper in games, we see less of the pen, but with that 4.17 ERA over 16 starts, you would hope that he would have a better record than 4-6. Unfortunately, he didn't.

Elizardo Ramirez pitched above his talent ceiling in 2006, and it's highly unlikely he'd put up similar results in the future, unless he was able to increase his endurance, and develop movement on his pitches.

Being only 23-24, I would hope by the time he's 26 that he might be able to contribute positively.

M2
03-05-2007, 04:43 PM
It's a terrible change up. One of the worst I've seen at this level.

He also throws the straightest ball on the team with little ability to locate. 89-93 is nothing without location and/or movement.

And on a fair gun, I sincerely doubt he gets up above 90.

I like his change a little better than you do, but I probably like his curve even less. Hitters read it real easy.

Highlifeman21
03-05-2007, 04:49 PM
I want to see this guy do well, I really do.

Unfortunately, I just don't see it happening.

TRF
03-05-2007, 05:25 PM
I want to see this guy do well, I really do.

Unfortunately, I just don't see it happening.

I have the same opinion of Drew Stubbs.

That's just it though... It's an opinion. The facts about EZ state that for a very long stretch, he was the Reds 3rd best pitcher, and that during that stretch, he pitched well. (In Cincinnati, the two are not givens)

Does he need to go deeper in games? Yes. Did Narron keep him on a short leash? possibly.

He's better than any other candidate for the 5th spot, and might be better than any candidate for the 3rd spot.

and yes, he sits around 90-94 and changes speeds well. he's also very accurate, but needs to learn to pitch off the plate a little better.

And he's only 24.

Highlifeman21
03-05-2007, 05:49 PM
I have the same opinion of Drew Stubbs.

That's just it though... It's an opinion. The facts about EZ state that for a very long stretch, he was the Reds 3rd best pitcher, and that during that stretch, he pitched well. (In Cincinnati, the two are not givens)

Does he need to go deeper in games? Yes. Did Narron keep him on a short leash? possibly.

He's better than any other candidate for the 5th spot, and might be better than any candidate for the 3rd spot.

and yes, he sits around 90-94 and changes speeds well. he's also very accurate, but needs to learn to pitch off the plate a little better.

And he's only 24.

I could understand Narron keeping him on a leash or a pitchcount, but EZ averaged almost 90 pitches per start, and didn't average 6 IP per start. Those are the 2 stats that really bother me about EZ. It probably makes sense that Narron had him on a 90 pitch leash, and that limited his IPs b/c he was just over 16 pitches per inning.

I guess if anything, you can say EZ didn't get run support and was unlucky in 2006, based on his 4-6 record to go with his 4.17 ERA in all his starts not counting August.

M2
03-05-2007, 05:57 PM
He's better than any other candidate for the 5th spot, and might be better than any candidate for the 3rd spot.

I beg to differ. My take is he's the new Lance Davis (the Reds' #2 starter at age 24 during the 2001 season). His stuff is decidedly mediocre and his minor league track record shows that he's always been easy to hit and that he lacks a K pitch.


and yes, he sits around 90-94

Only on guns that report 87-90 as 90-94.

I've got nothing against Ramirez. If he can make the rotation, more power to him, but I'm not holding my breath for it. Saarloos, Livingston and Santos are all equally viable on paper. Given his arm troubles of late, the odds are even longer given the fine line he walks. If he loses so much as a shred of stuff, he's toast.

dougdirt
03-05-2007, 06:04 PM
I beg to differ. My take is he's the new Lance Davis (the Reds' #2 starter at age 24 during the 2001 season). His stuff is decidedly mediocre and his minor league track record shows that he's always been easy to hit and that he lacks a K pitch.



Only on guns that report 87-90 as 90-94.

I've got nothing against Ramirez. If he can make the rotation, more power to him, but I'm not holding my breath for it. Saarloos, Livingston and Santos are all equally viable on paper. Given his arm troubles of late, the odds are even longer given the fine line he walks. If he loses so much as a shred of stuff, he's toast.

I will give you Saarloos and Santos maybe. Livingston on paper not in the same group with Ramirez.

TRF
03-05-2007, 06:05 PM
Thing about EZ is he seems like he's been around forever, but he's only 24. That's the year a lot of pitchers start to get it.

And M2 I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on the speed at which EZ pitches. I saw 90-94 in a lot of different parks. The knock on him was movement, not speed.

If anything, Germano was more like Lance Davis than EZ.

M2
03-05-2007, 06:35 PM
I will give you Saarloos and Santos maybe. Livingston on paper not in the same group with Ramirez.

Livingston and Ramirez have almost identical minor league numbers.

Ramirez - 3.41 ERA, 9.57 H/9, 0.65 HR/9, 1.42 BB/9, 6.23 K/9
Livingston - 3.46 ERA, 9.19 H/9, 0.65 HR/9, 1.80 BB/9, 6.14 K/9

That's a complete dead heat.

dougdirt
03-05-2007, 06:45 PM
I was not really looking at anything below AAA.

at 22 Elizardo was at AAA posting a 3.77 ERA and a 1.28 WHIP. 10.28 h/9. 1.23 bb/9. 5.62 k/9.
as 22/23 Bobby was at AAA posting a 4.62 ERA and a 1.44 WHIP. 10.49 h/9. 2.45 bb/9. 5.29 k/9.

The numbers arent really that similar.

M2
03-05-2007, 07:20 PM
I was not really looking at anything below AAA.

at 22 Elizardo was at AAA posting a 3.77 ERA and a 1.28 WHIP. 10.28 h/9. 1.23 bb/9. 5.62 k/9.
as 22/23 Bobby was at AAA posting a 4.62 ERA and a 1.44 WHIP. 10.49 h/9. 2.45 bb/9. 5.29 k/9.

The numbers arent really that similar.

Their circumstances aren't that similar either. Ramirez was a level above Livingston, at least most of the time, each of the past two years. Livingston pitched better in 2005. Both stunk it up in the final analysis last season, though Ramirez had his moments in the majors, so I'd give him the nod for 2006. Both invite the same kid of danger -- too easy to hit and when you combine that with the power you find in more advanced hitters, they go punching bag.

Put them both in AAA this season, please because I don't want either pitching in the majors, and I'd say it's even money as to which one does better. Neither is going to dominate, ever.

Ramirez needs his change to mature into a plus pitch and to not suffer any stuff degradation from his injury. Livingston needs find 5 MPH.

Dracodave
03-05-2007, 07:39 PM
Livingston doesn't need to find 5 mphs.

Just because you throw hard doesn't mean you're going to be good.


Livingston lives in the mid-80s with a +curve and +change up, not to mention a slider and a two seamer.

He struggled in Triple A his first round through at age 22, admitted that the advanced hitters made him pitch wrong, and at age 23 BEFORE his call up to the major he WAS dominating triple a to the tune of 2.12 era.

The problem with Bobby was and is his mechinics, He was tinkering with them to get Triple A hitters out. If you can change his mechinics (Triple A bound/Soto bound) to improve his change up even more and add about 3-4 mph on his fast ball..He is then major league ready.

Plus Bobby is 24.


6-Bobby Livingston-SP,6'3/190, L/L DOB:9/3/82
In spots 1-5, there’s little room for argument. Sure, some may view Jones’ upside and more advanced level as cause to rank him #1, while others may say that Tuiasosopo ought to rank ahead of Cabrera based on upside, but it’s pretty straight forward, and most lists will probably look similar to this one (though many may exclude Snelling). From this point on, though, it’s anyone’s guess. I take the #6 position to remind people that the Mariners’ farm system still has some pitching. Livingston won’t blow anyone away with his stuff, but he’s had success at every level as a left-handed junkballer with a plus changeup. In 2005, Livingston had a superb season in San Antonio, and was inconsistent after his call-up to AAA Tacoma, mixing in superb starts with terrible ones. The peak of Livingston’s 2005 performance was a 7-inning shutout of the Sacramento RiverCats, in which he struck out 14. Look for improved consistency in AAA next year, with a possible late call-up.

kheidg-
03-05-2007, 07:51 PM
I beg to differ. My take is he's the new Lance Davis (the Reds' #2 starter at age 24 during the 2001 season). His stuff is decidedly mediocre and his minor league track record shows that he's always been easy to hit and that he lacks a K pitch.


Well this is from an article last year.


Thursday, July 27, 2006
EZ does it

HOUSTON -- Elizardo Ramirez tonight became the first Reds pitcher to strike out seven consecutive batters since John Smiley did it Aug. 27, 1996 at Colorado. Kerry Wood was the last pitcher in the majors to do it, against the Braves on April 11, 2004.

M2
03-05-2007, 08:36 PM
Livingston doesn't need to find 5 mphs.

Just because you throw hard doesn't mean you're going to be good.


Livingston lives in the mid-80s with a +curve and +change up, not to mention a slider and a two seamer.

He struggled in Triple A his first round through at age 22, admitted that the advanced hitters made him pitch wrong, and at age 23 BEFORE his call up to the major he WAS dominating triple a to the tune of 2.12 era.

The problem with Bobby was and is his mechinics, He was tinkering with them to get Triple A hitters out. If you can change his mechinics (Triple A bound/Soto bound) to improve his change up even more and add about 3-4 mph on his fast ball..He is then major league ready.

Plus Bobby is 24.

I'm familiar with him and was one of the more vocal folks around here in favor of picking him up. He's got most everything you need to be a good pitcher (including disposition), except enough juice on the fastball to keep good hitters from sitting on his plus breaking pitches. 3-4 MPH vs. 5 MPH? That's a hair I'm not going to split. He needs more juice, that seems to be the point.

Dracodave
03-05-2007, 08:38 PM
I'm familiar with him and was one of the more vocal folks around here in favor of picking him up. He's got most everything you need to be a good pitcher (including disposition), except enough juice on the fastball to keep good hitters from sitting on his plus breaking pitches. 3-4 MPH vs. 5 MPH? That's a hair I'm not going to split. He needs more juice, that seems to be the point.

Yeah I know, I was stating that for everyone else. Really I am tired of hearing people say he sucks. I've yet to see anything but struggling at triple a, and thats because he can't fool as easily. Doesn't mean he's going to suck.

I also see no indications hes Chris Mich V 2.0. I also see no indications he's Jamie Moyer V 2.0.

I just see a pitcher who wins.

M2
03-05-2007, 08:47 PM
Well this is from an article last year.

I saw the game. It was by far his best performance, though it should be noted the game came against an Astros team that at that moment couldn't hit a RHP to save itself.

Yet if he's so gifted with stuff, then how do we explain the meager 6.23 K/9 in the minors? Or the paltry 5.54 K/9 in the majors. If he isn't easy to hit then what's with the following hit totals?

A Ball - 9.82 H/9
AA Ball - 11.97 H/9
AAA Ball - 10.23 H/9
Majors - 11.02 H/9

If you think seven hitters from a shambolic Astros lineup trumps that, it's your prerogative. I'll go with the career numbers.

Dracodave
03-05-2007, 08:52 PM
A Ball - 9.82 H/9
AA Ball - 11.97 H/9
AAA Ball - 10.23 H/9
Majors - 11.02 H/9


I think that alone speaks the volume of the difference between Double A and the Majors for The Lizardo. The ironic thing about that Astro game is...The Astro's were streaky versus right handers. Lizardo got that game where they just flat out sucked..

I like Elizardo, I think if he buddies up to Kirk..and learns movement on his pitches..then we may have something.

jimbo
03-05-2007, 09:00 PM
I like Elizardo, I think if he buddies up to Kirk..and learns movement on his pitches..then we may have something.

I keep hearing this and I keep thinking to myself, I must have been watching a different pitcher. As bad as some are making him out to be, he should have been a batting machine pitcher when he was with the Reds because that's what a pitcher with mediocre velocity, no movement, and no ability to locate is. There is no way a pitcher that bad could strikeout 7 straight major league hitters (I don't care who they were, still major league hitters), or strikeout 10 Brewers in another game. The guy had a good stretch last season before he got hurt where he pitched well enough to keep his team in the game consistantly, what you expect and want from a back half of the rotation starter.

M2
03-05-2007, 09:08 PM
I think that alone speaks the volume of the difference between Double A and the Majors for The Lizardo. The ironic thing about that Astro game is...The Astro's were streaky versus right handers. Lizardo got that game where they just flat out sucked..

I like Elizardo, I think if he buddies up to Kirk..and learns movement on his pitches..then we may have something.

I'd love to combine certain players. Baseball would be much easier if players had interchangeable pieces like Micronauts.

Dracodave
03-05-2007, 09:12 PM
Im watching video from that 10 strike out game against Mil.

He's hitting 88-92 on his fastball, but it's very straight. He was relaying on changing speeds, but very little movement on his fastball. His curve seemed to sink late..but not very much. It was a slight drop compared to say Harrangs that drops off the table.

He was throwing what looks like a sinking change up too, but once again it was very late sink, and the were once again missing the speed.

I see more control and command in that game then overpowering.

Cedric
03-05-2007, 10:44 PM
I keep hearing this and I keep thinking to myself, I must have been watching a different pitcher. As bad as some are making him out to be, he should have been a batting machine pitcher when he was with the Reds because that's what a pitcher with mediocre velocity, no movement, and no ability to locate is. There is no way a pitcher that bad could strikeout 7 straight major league hitters (I don't care who they were, still major league hitters), or strikeout 10 Brewers in another game. The guy had a good stretch last season before he got hurt where he pitched well enough to keep his team in the game consistantly, what you expect and want from a back half of the rotation starter.

Really? Jimmy Anderson had a good stretch once I'm sure also.

We aren't saying Elizardo is a little league player here. Anyone at that AAAA level can get batters out here and there. It's consistency and longevity that I don't expect from Elizardo. I suggest he's just another player we hear ten years from now and go "damn I remember that guy."

I just don't see a big league career from the guy, hope I'm wrong.

Cedric
03-05-2007, 10:45 PM
And on a fair gun, I sincerely doubt he gets up above 90.

I like his change a little better than you do, but I probably like his curve even less. Hitters read it real easy.

I don't even think it was a change up though. He threw the change from a different arm slot and he slowed down his arm considerably. It was just a slow fastball and basically batting practice.

kheidg-
03-06-2007, 03:13 PM
I saw the game. It was by far his best performance, though it should be noted the game came against an Astros team that at that moment couldn't hit a RHP to save itself.

Yet if he's so gifted with stuff, then how do we explain the meager 6.23 K/9 in the minors? Or the paltry 5.54 K/9 in the majors. If he isn't easy to hit then what's with the following hit totals?

A Ball - 9.82 H/9
AA Ball - 11.97 H/9
AAA Ball - 10.23 H/9
Majors - 11.02 H/9

If you think seven hitters from a shambolic Astros lineup trumps that, it's your prerogative. I'll go with the career numbers.

You are 100 percent correct in the fact that his career K/H numbers in the minors prove that he isn't an unhittable pitcher. But the Astro players he struck out were not horrible at hitting RHP at that time or any other time. He struck out Huff (.278 vs. RHP, .233 vs LHP) - Wilson (.258 vs RHP, .292 vs. LHP) - Scott (.366 vs. RHP, .240 vs LHP) - Everett (.248 vs RHP, .253 vs LHP) - Lamb (.324 vs RHP, .211 vs LHP) and Biggio (.284 vs RHP, .280 vs LHP).

Those splits prove to me that the people he struck out were actually better at hitting RHP than LHP. The Astros also had 11 hits that game, only 6 came off EZ.

This is also the same Astros team that scorched Arroyo for 8 hits and 7ER the game before and Brandon Backe for 12 hits and 5 ER the game after... so they were not cold at the time.

M2
03-06-2007, 03:29 PM
kheidg, the Astros were next-to-last in NL in OPS vs. RHPs, 28th in all of MLB. Only the Pirates and Devil Rays were worse.

They emerged from the All-Star break last year and promptly went 6-10.

What Astros team were you watching?

Cedric
03-06-2007, 03:29 PM
You are 100 percent correct in the fact that his career K/H numbers in the minors prove that he isn't an unhittable pitcher. But the Astro players he struck out were not horrible at hitting RHP at that time or any other time. He struck out Huff (.278 vs. RHP, .233 vs LHP) - Wilson (.258 vs RHP, .292 vs. LHP) - Scott (.366 vs. RHP, .240 vs LHP) - Everett (.248 vs RHP, .253 vs LHP) - Lamb (.324 vs RHP, .211 vs LHP) and Biggio (.284 vs RHP, .280 vs LHP).

Those splits prove to me that the people he struck out were actually better at hitting RHP than LHP. The Astros also had 11 hits that game, only 6 came off EZ.

This is also the same Astros team that scorched Arroyo for 8 hits and 7ER the game before and Brandon Backe for 12 hits and 5 ER the game after... so they were not cold at the time.

Extreme small sample size. We've seen countless bad pitchers over the years throw great games. These guys are professionals for a reason, they can get big league hitters out. It's the consistency and duration that matter, not lucky games.