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TOBTTReds
03-02-2007, 05:21 PM
If a linedrive is hit to a fielder, and it hits his glove and knocks it off but stays in his glove the whole time, is it an out? The ball never touches the ground and stays in the glove the whole time. What is the ruling?

I'm about 90% sure that it is an out, but a friend of mine feels he has to have his glove on to be an out. Can anyone find the ruling?

Red Leader
03-02-2007, 05:28 PM
I'll look for the ruling but I'm 99.9999999 sure it's an out.

Edit: Hindsight: :doh:

TOBTTReds
03-02-2007, 05:30 PM
Here's what I have found about a catch, but nothing that tells me it's an out:


A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball. It is not a catch if a fielder touches a fly ball which then hits a member of the offensive team or an umpire and then is caught by another defensive player. If the fielder has made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball shall be adjudged to have been caught. In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional.
Rule 2.00 (Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch. He may jump on top of a railing, or canvas that may be in foul ground. No interference should be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk.
If a fielder, attempting a catch at the edge of the dugout, is “held up” and kept from an apparent fall by a player or players of either team and the catch is made, it shall be allowed.

HumnHilghtFreel
03-02-2007, 05:32 PM
I'd say it's not an out then, since technically, the fielder himself wouldn't be in control of the ball.

RANDY IN INDY
03-02-2007, 05:33 PM
I would think, by that definition, that if the player does not control the ball in his possession for a set amount of time, it is not an out.

SunDeck
03-02-2007, 05:37 PM
It seems to me that the ball knocking a glove out of one's hand would be a ball that is not under control. The glove can't do that, only the player can.

Red Leader
03-02-2007, 05:43 PM
I stand corrected. Haven't found the actual rule yet but found this forum with fans asking MLB umpires questions. Here's one:


The batter hit a wicked line drive back to the pitcher. The ball was hit so hard, that the glove fell off the pitchers hand and landed on the mound.
Then the ball rolled out of the glove, so it was no catch, but the runner was still out at first from the throw.

My question is, what if the ball stayed in the glove? Is that an out? Or does the glove have to be on the fielder's hand?




Once the pitcher's mitt became separated from his person and hit the ground, the ball was no longer considered in flight and therefore could not be caught. Therefore, in your situation, the ball had to be thrown to first base for the putout of the batter-runner. BTW, if the ball/mitt combo was thrown to first (because the ball became stuck in it, for example), it would be a legal putout provided the ball/mitt combo didn't become loose in the first baseman's mitt.

Weird, but it's happened.

Reds Fanatic
03-02-2007, 05:45 PM
The part of that rule that says firmly holding it would make me say it would not be a catch because if it came right off his hand I would think he would not be firmly holding it.

TOBTTReds
03-02-2007, 05:50 PM
Once the pitcher's mitt became separated from his person and hit the ground, the ball was no longer considered in flight and therefore could not be caught.

There it is, thanks!

SAFE!

George Anderson
03-02-2007, 05:57 PM
I think it would be awfully hard for a ball to be hit hard enought to knock a glove off a hand and still stay in the glove unless the ball got somehow lodged in the mitt.

So ok amateur umpires, what would be the call if under the same circumstances the ball knocked the glove off the fielders hand but it was stuck in the webbing of the glove?? Whats the call and do the runners advance???

TOBTTReds
03-02-2007, 06:00 PM
I think it would be awfully hard for a ball to be hit hard enought to knock a glove off a hand and still stay in the glove unless the ball got somehow lodged in the mitt.



At work, we saw a play like that today from 2004, and no one knew the ruling, so that is why I asked. The ball rolled out at after tumbling twice.

Red Leader
03-02-2007, 06:02 PM
So ok amateur umpires, what would be the call if under the same circumstances the ball knocked the glove off the fielders hand but it was stuck in the webbing of the glove?? Whats the call and do the runners advance???

Same applies. Ball is in play and not ruled an out. Runners advance at their own risk (ie, they are not "awarded" a base as no penalty has been accessed because they didn't purposely throw their glove).

minus5
03-02-2007, 06:15 PM
So when Bugs Bunny threw his glove up in the air to catch a ball, it wasn't an out? Man, that really changes the outcome of that game with the Gashouse Gorillas.

http://www.animationusa.com/picts/baseball/2_Palooka.jpg

George Anderson
03-02-2007, 06:15 PM
Same applies. Ball is in play and not ruled an out. Runners advance at their own risk (ie, they are not "awarded" a base as no penalty has been accessed because they didn't purposely throw their glove).

Nope

Red Leader
03-02-2007, 06:16 PM
So when Bugs Bunny threw his glove up in the air to catch a ball, it wasn't an out? Man, that really changes the outcome of that game with the Gashouse Gorillas.

http://www.animationusa.com/picts/baseball/2_Palooka.jpg

Now that I think about it, didn't Bugs' arm "rubberize" like Stretch Armstrong all the way up in the air and actually catch it while it was still on his hand? Or am I thinking of another cartoon. I don't remember Bugs "throwing" his glove in the air.

Dunner44
03-02-2007, 06:16 PM
Is this in regards to the play today on the ESPN Braves-Pirates game? Because that was sweet... in this case, however, the ball rolled out of the mitt after the glove hit the turf. But the same pitcher made another nice athletic play jumping high to snag a chopper to end the inning.

I didn't know you couldn't use your cap to catch a ball... that seems to ruin the fun of it...

Red Leader
03-02-2007, 06:20 PM
Nope

?????


7.05
Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance --
(e) Two bases, if a fielder deliberately throws his glove at and touches a thrown ball. The ball is in play;
Rules 7.05(b) through 7.05(e) Comment: In applying (b-c-d-e) the umpire must rule that the thrown glove or detached cap or mask has touched the ball. There is no penalty if the ball is not touched.
Under (c-e) this penalty shall not be invoked against a fielder whose glove is carried off his hand by the force of a batted or thrown ball, or when his glove flies off his hand as he makes an obvious effort to make a legitimate catch.

vaticanplum
03-02-2007, 06:21 PM
Now that I think about it, didn't Bugs' arm "rubberize" like Stretch Armstrong all the way up in the air and actually catch it while it was still on his hand? Or am I thinking of another cartoon. I don't remember Bugs "throwing" his glove in the air.

I love this board.

George Anderson
03-02-2007, 06:26 PM
?????

The scenario I layed out had the ball stuck in the webbing of the mitt. As soon as the ball is lodged in the mitt or any other form of equipment the ball is dead, the batter gets first and no runners advance.

Red Leader
03-02-2007, 06:29 PM
The scenario I layed out had the ball stuck in the mitt. As soon as the ball is lodged in the mitt or any other form of equipment the ball is dead, the batter gets first and no runners advance.

Where do you see that in the rules? I know there is a rule stated as such for catcher's masks, hats, and other "paraphernalia," but I saw no mention of the ball being lodged in the glove being part of that rule. A glove is a part of every player's uniform, so it is not "paraphernalia.."

KronoRed
03-02-2007, 06:31 PM
Now that I think about it, didn't Bugs' arm "rubberize" like Stretch Armstrong all the way up in the air and actually catch it while it was still on his hand? Or am I thinking of another cartoon. I don't remember Bugs "throwing" his glove in the air.

Must of been another game you are thinking of, I do remember Bugs tossing his glove in the air

Leave it to a rabbit to be cheating tsk tsk.

redsmetz
03-02-2007, 07:09 PM
The part of that rule that says firmly holding it would make me say it would not be a catch because if it came right off his hand I would think he would not be firmly holding it.

What if his hand came off with it? I'm just saying...

TOBTTReds
03-02-2007, 07:13 PM
Throwing your glove at a ball is a ground rule triple...i'm not making that up.

And the play was from today's game, I got confused.

KronoRed
03-02-2007, 07:15 PM
What if his hand came off with it? I'm just saying...

Guess it would be up to the ump to decide if a detached hand counts as being part of the body.

Red Leader
03-02-2007, 10:17 PM
The scenario I layed out had the ball stuck in the webbing of the mitt. As soon as the ball is lodged in the mitt or any other form of equipment the ball is dead, the batter gets first and no runners advance.

Pushing further, if that were true than in the example above the runner would automatically be declared safe at first. It wouldn't matter if the pitcher lobbed his glove (w/the ball inside the glove) to the 1st baseman to record the out. I've seen this play happen a couple times and the runner has ALWAYS been called out at first if the glove/ball arrive at 1st before the runner gets there.

Just sayin'.

RedFanAlways1966
03-02-2007, 10:20 PM
Must of been another game you are thinking of, I do remember Bugs tossing his glove in the air

Leave it to a rabbit to be cheating tsk tsk.

Don't say that too loud, Krono... Bugs might have rabbit ears!

George Anderson
03-02-2007, 10:20 PM
Pushing further, if that were true than in the example above the runner would automatically be declared safe at first. It wouldn't matter if the pitcher lobbed his glove (w/the ball inside the glove) to the 1st baseman to record the out. I've seen this play happen a couple times and the runner has ALWAYS been called out at first if the glove/ball arrive at 1st before the runner gets there.

Just sayin'.

Ive been digging on this. In MLB the ball is live . But with federation rules which are generally high school rules, it is an automatic dead ball and no runners advance.

KronoRed
03-02-2007, 10:26 PM
Don't say that too loud, Krono... Bugs might have rabbit ears!

No worries
I have security
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/Kronosb/elmer-fudd.jpg

Highlifeman21
03-02-2007, 11:59 PM
The scenario I layed out had the ball stuck in the webbing of the mitt. As soon as the ball is lodged in the mitt or any other form of equipment the ball is dead, the batter gets first and no runners advance.

What about that play a couple years back where the pitcher had to throw his glove with the ball in it over to the 1B b/c the ball got stuck in his glove?

It was still a live ball, the batter didn't get first, and the runners had the opportunity to advance (although IIRC this was an end of inning play).

George Anderson
03-03-2007, 12:43 AM
What about that play a couple years back where the pitcher had to throw his glove with the ball in it over to the 1B b/c the ball got stuck in his glove?

It was still a live ball, the batter didn't get first, and the runners had the opportunity to advance (although IIRC this was an end of inning play).

In MLB the ball is live. In high school games which are played under federation rules the ball is dead.

redsfan30
03-03-2007, 12:47 AM
Was this thread inspired by the Pirates/Braves game on ESPN this afternoon?

Caveat Emperor
03-03-2007, 01:45 AM
Must of been another game you are thinking of, I do remember Bugs tossing his glove in the air

Leave it to a rabbit to be cheating tsk tsk.

I thought the cartoon with the mascot elephant playing all the positions was the one where the stretch armstrong act occured.

Didn't he put the glove on his trunk and reach over the wall to catch a ball or soemthing?

Dunner44
03-03-2007, 11:15 AM
Was this thread inspired by the Pirates/Braves game on ESPN this afternoon?

Yeah. Peter Moylan, the amazing Aussie. I couldn't find video on youtube or anything else... someone with better skills want to go find it?