Homer Cartoon by Borgman

[BuckWoody]

http://borgman.enquirer.com/img/daily/2007/03/030607_borg_600x396.jpg
Note very far from reality as far as expectations go...

[Z-Fly]

Leave him in AAA.

[Phhhl]

Cool drawing. I really don't think it's like that, though. This franchise has had some of the greatest players in the history of the game. We've had Tom Seaver and Jose Rijo and Mario Soto and Tom Browning take the mound for us. It's a great franchise that is not going to fold if Homer doesn't dominate the league, or even if he settles in as an adequate 3rd or 4th starter and never meets expectations (And, BTW, this team NEEDS an adequate 3rd or 4th starter!)

I guess I just get tired of the lowered expectations regarding this team. Maybe I am old school or living in a time warp. But, no single player is bigger than the Reds, especially not a 21 year old kid who obviously battled a case of the nerves in his first spring training start yesterday.

[dougdirt]

Santo, I disagree. I dont think the Reds will be disappointed if Homer ends up in the #3/4 role, but with the way this towns fans are, a majority of them will be very disappointed. Think about the crap Griffey gets in this town because of what he has done since he came here. Outside of the injuries, he has performed for the most part, but people just expected way too much and in turn he catches a ton of crap for not living up to what people expected. This town is pretty bad with things like that.

[coachw513]

This is such uncharted territory as a Reds fan...I can't help but think of Mark Prior :scared: ...great delivery, great makeup, great stuff...and now he can't get healthy enough to win a game...we sure could use some good fortune with Bailey...especially after a decade of arm surgeries for our other "prospects"...

[BuckWoody]

I'm with doug, the cartoon plays more to the expectations of the fans than those of the organization.

[dougdirt]

This is such uncharted territory as a Reds fan...I can't help but think of Mark Prior :scared: ...great delivery, great makeup, great stuff...and now he can't get healthy enough to win a game...we sure could use some good fortune with Bailey...especially after a decade of arm surgeries for our other "prospects"...

Mark Prior does not have a great delivery. He gets his elbow above his shoulder about halfway through his windup. He makes what is sometimes called an inverted W or an M, and some believe that it directly leads to arm issues.
http://www.tristarproductions.com/Sales/Images/Baseball/PriorM-16x10-ABR.jpg
See what I am talking about with the M thing in his arms?

Check out this picture of one Francisco Liriano
http://images.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/_photos/2006-06-23-clemens-liriano-.jpg
Same type of thing as Prior. M shape with his arms, elbow above his shoulder. Now missing the entire season with arm problems.

I cant say I know much about this subject, but it is something I have heard about and done some reading on. John Smoltz has a similar type M thing going for him, and he has had several arm problems through his career as well, but for the most part has been relatively healthy.

[coachw513]

Mark Prior does not have a great delivery. He gets his elbow above his shoulder about halfway through his windup. He makes what is sometimes called an inverted W or an M, and some believe that it directly leads to arm issues.


Interesting...I had not heard or read that...my only recollections were that as a highly-touted minor leaguer they spoke glowingly about his fluid motion and mechanics...

I cannot speak to this...I am not a pitching coach, nor do I play one on TV, though the stage name Dick Pole would be enticing to me:D

[dougdirt]

Like I said, I am not some expert on it or anything, but I do know there are some out there who believe this type of wind up coupled with being a starting pitcher leads to elbow and shoulder injuries. Joel Zumaya has a severe case of this going on, so if he moves into the rotation, he will be a very interesting case to watch.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/getty/57210156gs010_los_angeles_a.hmedium.jpg

[CINCYREDS#1]

wilson was worse than bailey

[bucksfan2]

It looks like the kind of delivery that doug is talking about creates more of a slingshot efect to generate more velocity on a ball. Guys like Clemens just have that natural velocity. Just my honest opinion.

[RedFanAlways1966]

wilson was worse than bailey

Maybe that is why he won't show his face...

http://www.exhibitoronline.com/exhibitormagazine/images/november_2004/mediaevent/wilson_small.jpg

[westofyou]

We've had Tom Seaver and Jose Rijo and Mario Soto and Tom Browning take the mound for us.

Tom Browning?

I don't even see him playing with the other guys, he was 1/2 the pitcher they were.

Just one mans opinion.

[Jaycint]

Tom Browning?

I don't even see him playing with the other guys, he was 1/2 the pitcher they were.

Just one mans opinion.

He'll probably always be elevated higher than he deserves by Reds fans thanks to one night late in the 1988 season...

Real solid workhorse of a pitcher for about 6 or 7 years though.

[Team Clark]

I wonder how long it took Borgman to draw in the fans? That's a lot of circles.

[Redsland]

I wonder how long it took Borgman to draw in the fans? That's a lot of circles.
Yeah, but in a so-called "baseball town" like this, there really should be more of them.

:)

[westofyou]

I wonder how long it took Borgman to draw in the fans? That's a lot of circles.

The Clone Tool is a nice feature.

[Redlegs]

I think the Reds organization are the most guilty for the hype surrounding Bailey. They've handled him with such kid gloves, it leads people to think he indeed has a golden arm. I understand their caution regarding Bailey, however, had this organization not had such a terrible lack of developing home grown pitching, they may not be so cautious with Homer. It also doesn't help when the media types like Tracey Jones says "he's ready right now" or Marty B. goes on and says "he's the best pitching prospect I've seen in 33 years here." While all that may be true, it just builds on to the hype.

[TOBTTReds]

I dont think the Reds will be disappointed if Homer ends up in the #3/4 role, but with the way this towns fans are, a majority of them will be very disappointed.

DD, you and I are usually on the same page, but I slightly disagree here, unless you are comparing him to Harang and Arroyo (or what he would become THIS year). But I think the Reds feel they have a future ace on their hands. Homer is arguably the #1 pitching prospect in the minor leagues. If not #1, def top 5. And he isn't in Low A anymore, he is darn close to here.

Although the Reds (WK, JN, or Terry Reynolds) won't say it, they hope/think Homer will be a #1/2 starter for years to come. I'd say im 99% sure JN would be dissapointed with Homer turning into a #3 pitcher, or especially a #4.

The success of Verlander last year might have some fans hopes out of whack as well. They are pretty comparable, except JV has a NASTY changeup.

I personally expect Homer to be a #2 starter for years, and I don't think it too much to expect. Homer knows the expectations from fans, and he is ready to prove them right. He has boat loads of confidence.

[fielder's choice]

Like I said, I am not some expert on it or anything, but I do know there are some out there who believe this type of wind up coupled with being a starting pitcher leads to elbow and shoulder injuries. Joel Zumaya has a severe case of this going on, so if he moves into the rotation, he will be a very interesting case to watch.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/getty/57210156gs010_los_angeles_a.hmedium.jpg

He should be OK if he puts Guitar Hero II down.

[Dracodave]

Although the Reds (WK, JN, or Terry Reynolds) won't say it, they hope/think Homer will be a #1/2 starter for years to come. I'd say im 99% sure JN would be dissapointed with Homer turning into a #3 pitcher, or especially a #4.

The success of Verlander last year might have some fans hopes out of whack as well. They are pretty comparable, except JV has a NASTY changeup.


Justin is also going to have a very good injury chance this year, due to Detriot boosting his IP too fast.

Ironic, cause thats what a lot of us (myself included at times) called for out of Bailey. I won't lie. I want to see Bailey perform to 3/4 this year ASAP. Then from next year on progress to be a number 1/2 pitcher. I would LOVE that out of Homer.

Do I want to risk a injury? Nope, both he and myself know his time will come.

Justin got pushed too hard, and that might have a serious issue on his shoulder/elbow lig's and tendons..

[TOBTTReds]

Justin is also going to have a very good injury chance this year, due to Detriot boosting his IP too fast.

Ironic, cause thats what a lot of us (myself included at times) called for out of Bailey. I won't lie. I want to see Bailey perform to 3/4 this year ASAP. Then from next year on progress to be a number 1/2 pitcher. I would LOVE that out of Homer.

Do I want to risk a injury? Nope, both he and myself know his time will come.

Justin got pushed too hard, and that might have a serious issue on his shoulder/elbow lig's and tendons..

Don't know if you were responding to anything I said here. But I don't think he should be in the rotation right now either. Just wanted to clear that up in case you or others thought I might have been saying I want him in now, let alone being a #2 now or anything like that.

My Homer time-table (if all goes as planned):

AAA til mid-June then trade a starter if we could still have 5 decent starters in after a trade, but I'm assuming one will suck/be hurt so there will be an easy spot to fill.

#5 til season end.

My 08 staff:

Harang
Arroyo
Bailey
Ramirez/Lohse/Saarloos/Livingston/whoever else for the 4 and 5 spots

He never needs to become THE #1 pitcher, but I do hope/expect him to pitch like a 1 or 2 after a couple seasons.

[Dracodave]

I was building off of your statement. I'm agreeing with you but at the same time I wanted to build off the Verlander comment.


I figured the two would tie into each other, due to the fact that there are concerns for injurying if we rush Bailey, expecially pushing his arm harder now then ever.


Sorry if you thought I was attacking you.