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GOREDSGO32
03-06-2007, 08:11 PM
He's at least keeping the Reds competitive while sunk salary is still on the roster (Milton and Griffey), two guys being paid the most on the team yet are only average (or below average) players at this ponit in time.

I'm a 49ers fan, and basically had to suffer through an entire rebuilding process over cap hell. Baseball doesn't have a salary cap, but owners spending ability is like a cap, so its nice to see the Reds stay competitive under this kind of handicap. Once milton gets off the books, along with Griff, I imagine this team will really become a contender.

jojo
03-06-2007, 08:31 PM
He's at least keeping the Reds competitive while sunk salary is still on the roster (Milton and Griffey), two guys being paid the most on the team yet are only average (or below average) players at this ponit in time.

I'm a 49ers fan, and basically had to suffer through an entire rebuilding process over cap hell. Baseball doesn't have a salary cap, but owners spending ability is like a cap, so its nice to see the Reds stay competitive under this kind of handicap. Once milton gets off the books, along with Griff, I imagine this team will really become a contender.


Actually Dunn is making more than Milton....

GOREDSGO32
03-06-2007, 08:36 PM
Well yeah since the resigning .. as of last year it was Griff and milton, and they are getting a huge percentage of the team's possible payroll. Hopefully that money can be used in the future for more productive players ,and we avoid long term handicapped contracts. Griffey was the best player in baseball when he signed here, and he proved how putting all your stock in anyone can turn out disasterous.

HumnHilghtFreel
03-06-2007, 08:39 PM
Actually Dunn is making more than Milton....

Dunn arguably earns most of his paycheck though, which I think was the point of the post. If Milton was posting a 3.5 era with 15 wins, I don't think many people would complain about the 7 mill hes making.

Team Clark
03-06-2007, 09:01 PM
Dunn arguably earns most of his paycheck though, which I think was the point of the post. If Milton was posting a 3.5 era with 15 wins, I don't think many people would complain about the 7 mill hes making.

Say what you will about Adam but I will have to agree that he does put up numbers to support his paycheck. I can live with that. :thumbup:

jojo
03-06-2007, 09:14 PM
Say what you will about Adam but I will have to agree that he does put up numbers to support his paycheck. I can live with that. :thumbup:


Actually at '06 performance levels, Dunn was overpaid at $7M.

Also, Milton is making $9M....

cacollinsmba
03-06-2007, 10:03 PM
Actually Dunn is making more than Milton....

Yes, but the salaries are close because each player is paid per home run.

jojo
03-06-2007, 10:11 PM
Yes, but the salaries are close because each player is paid per home run.

If Milton had as many Ks as Dunn did last year, Milton would've been an all-star...

:D

Falls City Beer
03-06-2007, 10:24 PM
If Milton had as many Ks as Dunn did last year, Milton would've been an all-star...

:D

Milton should be paying the Reds for the right to humiliate the team's fans.

Ron Madden
03-07-2007, 04:24 AM
He's at least keeping the Reds competitive while sunk salary is still on the roster (Milton and Griffey), two guys being paid the most on the team yet are only average (or below average) players at this ponit in time.

I'm a 49ers fan, and basically had to suffer through an entire rebuilding process over cap hell. Baseball doesn't have a salary cap, but owners spending ability is like a cap, so its nice to see the Reds stay competitive under this kind of handicap. Once milton gets off the books, along with Griff, I imagine this team will really become a contender.

We have all heard this same ol' song before.

Once Jimmy Haynes' contract gets of the books...

Once Danny Graves' contract gets off the books...

Once Sean Casey's contract is off the books...

The money will go towards retaining a few talented players the rest will be spent on washed up vets or broken down relief pitchers. :drink: ;)

edabbs44
03-07-2007, 05:49 AM
We have all heard this same ol' song before.

Once Jimmy Haynes' contract gets of the books...

Once Danny Graves' contract gets off the books...

Once Sean Casey's contract is off the books...

The money will go towards retaining a few talented players the rest will be spent on washed up vets or broken down relief pitchers. :drink: ;)

Great point. Now it is a compilation of players.

Once Weathers, Stanton, Gonzalez, Cormier...are off the books...

Spring~Fields
03-07-2007, 06:06 AM
Great point. Now it is a compilation of players.

Once Weathers, Stanton, Gonzalez, Cormier...are off the books...

"Once" should be the title to the unrealistic optimistic theme song. Or a two years, a three years, a four years from now. ;)

UK Reds Fan
03-07-2007, 08:38 AM
I tend to agree that he is keeping us floating while waiting for those salaries to come off the books.

But he is wasting nickels instead of dollars ala O'Brien to some degree.

Guys like Conine, Stanton, Castro making 2 mil (not to mention cheaply offers but wasted $$$ nonetheless in Moeller, Crosby, etc) really drains whatever bad salaries come off the books. We are facing having to cut guys like Deno, Salmon, Shackelford, Ramirez, etc.. off the original 25 man roster because we have bigger contracts that we are trying to validate. I don't think it to be a stretch to imagine all of our AAA,AA relievers giving us for nothing what we've paid a few millions for and still don't understand the Conine deal. It would have been easy to see that Deno/Hopper can easily give us anything Conine is likely as a backup OF.

Would be very nice to save up those nickel signings and put them into one nice player signing that could have helped us out better than the combinations we've put together. I hope that trend stops when the Milton contract comes off the books this year.

roby
03-07-2007, 12:30 PM
I tend to agree that he is keeping us floating while waiting for those salaries to come off the books.

But he is wasting nickels instead of dollars ala O'Brien to some degree.

Guys like Conine, Stanton, Castro making 2 mil (not to mention cheaply offers but wasted $$$ nonetheless in Moeller, Crosby, etc) really drains whatever bad salaries come off the books. We are facing having to cut guys like Deno, Salmon, Shackelford, Ramirez, etc.. off the original 25 man roster because we have bigger contracts that we are trying to validate. I don't think it to be a stretch to imagine all of our AAA,AA relievers giving us for nothing what we've paid a few millions for and still don't understand the Conine deal. It would have been easy to see that Deno/Hopper can easily give us anything Conine is likely as a backup OF.

Would be very nice to save up those nickel signings and put them into one nice player signing that could have helped us out better than the combinations we've put together. I hope that trend stops when the Milton contract comes off the books this year.

Amen!

GOREDSGO32
03-07-2007, 01:25 PM
I don't have a problem with contract players. You either use the money or you don't use it, I'dd rather have signed old guys you might get performences out of rather than not signing anyone at all. There's not really an alternative to that, if they didn't sign anyone its not like Reds management would have let it carry over till next year to spend more or anything.

UGADaddy
03-07-2007, 01:39 PM
Once Danny Graves' contract gets off the books...

Once Sean Casey's contract is off the books...

Graves ended poorly but had some good years in Cincy, and I don't want to even hear that Sean Casey didn't earn his paycheck. He was (and is) a great hitter and a tremendous guy to have on the team and in the city. Just because they made a lot of money doesn't mean that weren't worth it.

Milton and Griffey are different. They both get injured a ton and both overall are not good. (Don't get me wrong, Griffey's a first-ballot HOFer, but not because of anything he's done in a Reds' uniform.)

dfs
03-07-2007, 01:53 PM
He's at least keeping the Reds competitive while sunk salary is still on the roster (Milton and Griffey), two guys being paid the most on the team yet are only average (or below average) players at this ponit in time.
Is the amound of sunk cost on this team realy extraordinary?

The reds have 19 million wrapped up in those guys....

I just chose some random teams from the USA today database...
The 06 Braves paid 14.5 million to Mike Hampton and 5 million to John Thompson. That's 19 million for 80 innings of 5.00 era.

The indians...no. They did put 8 million into Aaron Boone and Guillermo Mota. That's waste, but not as much.

Astros had bagwel...I'm not looking at KC or LA....How about the Brewers? 8 million into Geoff Jenkins and 6 million into Corey Koskie? Ouch. I know how those kind of contracts happen, but ouch.

How about the A's...they are known for making every dollar count ....Oops. When the traded for him they took Jason Kendel's 11 million dollar contract from the pirates and they paid Mark Kotsay 7 and Jay Payton 4.....I think that's probably a bit more production per dollar than miltey and junior, but it's close.

How about the Mariners....They were on the hook for 6 million to a reliver who put up an ERA of 5.5.....other than that they used their cash well. The reds did take that reliever from the mariners, but iirc seattle still got stuck paying the bill for Eddie.

How about Jimbo and that Nats? They had 15 million in Jose Vidro and Livian Hernadez. Hernandez pitched worse for the nats than miltie did here. Given the parks, thats got to be tough to do.

I purposefully avoided looking at franchises that waste money. So...no, it doesn't look like the reds are particularly abnormal in wasting 20 million dollars of payroll on guys that they don't get any real performance boost from.

pedro
03-07-2007, 01:56 PM
Graves ended poorly but had some good years in Cincy, and I don't want to even hear that Sean Casey didn't earn his paycheck. He was (and is) a great hitter and a tremendous guy to have on the team and in the city. Just because they made a lot of money doesn't mean that weren't worth it.

Milton and Griffey are different. They both get injured a ton and both overall are not good. (Don't get me wrong, Griffey's a first-ballot HOFer, but not because of anything he's done in a Reds' uniform.)

Sean Casey has a had a couple of good seasons mixed in with some truly awful ones. He is a great guy but he's not a great hitter by any stretch of the imagination.

redsmetz
03-07-2007, 02:12 PM
Graves ended poorly but had some good years in Cincy, and I don't want to even hear that Sean Casey didn't earn his paycheck. He was (and is) a great hitter and a tremendous guy to have on the team and in the city. Just because they made a lot of money doesn't mean that weren't worth it.

Milton and Griffey are different. They both get injured a ton and both overall are not good. (Don't get me wrong, Griffey's a first-ballot HOFer, but not because of anything he's done in a Reds' uniform.)

Certainly Griffey has not put up HOF numbers in his years with the Reds, but overall, he has not been "bad" either. In his first season here, he hit 40 HR's with 118 RBI's, batting .271. In 2005, he had 35 HR's, 92 RBI's while batting .301. In three other seasons (with limited playing time), he hit 20 or more home runs. Again, that's not what we'd hoped for from Griff, but they're not shabby numbers particularly for someone who was injured a considerable number of times.

bucksfan2
03-07-2007, 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by UGADaddy
Graves ended poorly but had some good years in Cincy, and I don't want to even hear that Sean Casey didn't earn his paycheck. He was (and is) a great hitter and a tremendous guy to have on the team and in the city. Just because they made a lot of money doesn't mean that weren't worth it.

Milton and Griffey are different. They both get injured a ton and both overall are not good. (Don't get me wrong, Griffey's a first-ballot HOFer, but not because of anything he's done in a Reds' uniform.)

In Casey's last few years he was a liability to this team. So many people were enamored with him that they failed to realize that his skills had diminished. He never developed power, was a liability on the base paths and was basically a slap hitter that was about as slow as they come. Jr. has been productive as a red. As someone said about his first year here was a good year. When he is in the lineup he adds protection around him. Injuries have taken away the player that he was in Seattle, but he still is a productive player. Milton I liken with LaRue. Never should have been signed/extended. Take up a roster spot and really have no value.

GOREDSGO32
03-07-2007, 02:32 PM
Is the amound of sunk cost on this team realy extraordinary?

The reds have 19 million wrapped up in those guys....

I just chose some random teams from the USA today database...
The 06 Braves paid 14.5 million to Mike Hampton and 5 million to John Thompson. That's 19 million for 80 innings of 5.00 era.

The indians...no. They did put 8 million into Aaron Boone and Guillermo Mota. That's waste, but not as much.

Astros had bagwel...I'm not looking at KC or LA....How about the Brewers? 8 million into Geoff Jenkins and 6 million into Corey Koskie? Ouch. I know how those kind of contracts happen, but ouch.

How about the A's...they are known for making every dollar count ....Oops. When the traded for him they took Jason Kendel's 11 million dollar contract from the pirates and they paid Mark Kotsay 7 and Jay Payton 4.....I think that's probably a bit more production per dollar than miltey and junior, but it's close.

How about the Mariners....They were on the hook for 6 million to a reliver who put up an ERA of 5.5.....other than that they used their cash well. The reds did take that reliever from the mariners, but iirc seattle still got stuck paying the bill for Eddie.

How about Jimbo and that Nats? They had 15 million in Jose Vidro and Livian Hernadez. Hernandez pitched worse for the nats than miltie did here. Given the parks, thats got to be tough to do.

I purposefully avoided looking at franchises that waste money. So...no, it doesn't look like the reds are particularly abnormal in wasting 20 million dollars of payroll on guys that they don't get any real performance boost from.

A lot of these teams have the payroll capacity to live with that. The variance of payrol in baseball is ansolutely nuts. You have the top ranks of the Yankees, which is in the stratosphere, then you got a little team like the Devil Rays or Marlins paying practically everyone on the team league minimum.

Last year for example, looking at the Reds salary, if Milton and Griffey were not on the team ,the Reds would have been 29th out of 31 teams. Of course thats gone up with the resigning and signing of some players, but there's definately room to be had with $19 million or so out there to use with those two guys not on the roster.

Eric_Davis
03-07-2007, 02:37 PM
Dunn arguably earns most of his paycheck though, which I think was the point of the post. If Milton was posting a 3.5 era with 15 wins, I don't think many people would complain about the 7 mill hes making.


Glavine has average 12 wins and 12 losses a year in 4 years with the Mets.

Some things should be put in perspective.

TRF
03-07-2007, 02:45 PM
Sean Casey has a had a couple of good seasons mixed in with some truly awful ones. He is a great guy but he's not a great hitter by any stretch of the imagination.

I'd counter that by saying I think he could have been a great hitter had he been a healthy player.

dfs
03-07-2007, 02:59 PM
A lot of these teams have the payroll capacity to live with that. The variance of payrol in baseball is ansolutely nuts. You have the top ranks of the Yankees, which is in the stratosphere, then you got a little team like the Devil Rays or Marlins paying practically everyone on the team league minimum.

Last year for example, looking at the Reds salary, if Milton and Griffey were not on the team ,the Reds would have been 29th out of 31 teams. Of course thats gone up with the resigning and signing of some players, but there's definately room to be had with $19 million or so out there to use with those two guys not on the roster.

Actually the teams I chose to look at all had very comparable payrolls to the reds. Other than the braves and Seattle, they were all within +/- 5 million. These are from the USA today database as last year's numbers.
Braves 90.1
Seattle 87.9
Nats 63.1
A's 62.2
Reds 60.9
Brewers 57.5
Indians 56.0

In other words you can play that game with every franchise.Every front office has contracts it regrets. It's the nature of the buisness. Contracts are an expression of risk and value and there is tremendous risk associated with predicting what a player can do. You can sign one of the best players in the game to a below market price and regret it years down the road.

Reds fans have become conditioned to losing and blaming it on money. It's not the money that was the problem, it was the inability to honestly evaluate talent at the major league level.

One of the things we have NOT been hearing out of spring training is..."well, so and so won 14 games three years ago. He's a proven winner." Bobo used to hand that Schtick off to the writers as gospel.

bucksfan2
03-07-2007, 04:06 PM
Actually the teams I chose to look at all had very comparable payrolls to the reds. Other than the braves and Seattle, they were all within +/- 5 million. These are from the USA today database as last year's numbers.
Braves 90.1
Seattle 87.9
Nats 63.1
A's 62.2
Reds 60.9
Brewers 57.5
Indians 56.0

In other words you can play that game with every franchise.Every front office has contracts it regrets. It's the nature of the buisness. Contracts are an expression of risk and value and there is tremendous risk associated with predicting what a player can do. You can sign one of the best players in the game to a below market price and regret it years down the road.

Reds fans have become conditioned to losing and blaming it on money. It's not the money that was the problem, it was the inability to honestly evaluate talent at the major league level.

One of the things we have NOT been hearing out of spring training is..."well, so and so won 14 games three years ago. He's a proven winner." Bobo used to hand that Schtick off to the writers as gospel.


How is the reds payroll comparable to either Atlanta or Seattle. In order for the reds to support a payroll like that they need to have a very successful season. Are the reds poor records over the years all because of money, no. They are based upon bad decisions made buy former gm's, a poor minor league system, their reluctance to make the unpopular decision, etc.

The reds have been stuck in this la la land for years where they aren't good enough to contend for a championship but not bad enough to go into a complete rebuilding cycle. Heck the marlins have won 2 world series and had two fire sales and are gradually building themselves into contenders again while the reds are content stand pat as a 3rd place team in their division. Finally as a reds fan you begin to see the light at the end of the tunnel but it remains to be seen if money will be spent and the payroll will be raised when the reds have a definant chance to win.

GOREDSGO32
03-07-2007, 10:31 PM
I'dd like to know if the players you mentioned for their respective teams, how long they were actually signed? Yeah having about 19 mil tied up for a year or two, big whoop - and those players at least get something. Milton has a three year deal, Griffey is what .. this is 7th year or so? And he's only played about half that time? And we paid Milton to not only suck, but be record breakingly bad in his original year. That's the big difference, we've locked up a player who actually HURTS the team for a high salary, and won't bench him because of the contract - and another guy who's been paid to be hurt. 10 years or so worth of money to be hurt by, which really can destroy a team.

Ron Madden
03-08-2007, 02:39 AM
Graves ended poorly but had some good years in Cincy, and I don't want to even hear that Sean Casey didn't earn his paycheck. He was (and is) a great hitter and a tremendous guy to have on the team and in the city. Just because they made a lot of money doesn't mean that weren't worth it.

Milton and Griffey are different. They both get injured a ton and both overall are not good. (Don't get me wrong, Griffey's a first-ballot HOFer, but not because of anything he's done in a Reds' uniform.)

It was never my intent to bash any player named in my post.

I was only bashing the notion so many seem to have, that money saved will surely be better spent.