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Matt700wlw
03-07-2007, 02:59 PM
Dan Kearns that is (Austin's father)

Washington Post


"I'm telling you, those Nationals fans made a difference for him," Dan Kearns said. "They talk about Cincinnati being a great baseball town, but they look for you to strike out so they can boo. Here they were, Washington, in last place, and they cheered everything."

Ltlabner
03-07-2007, 03:00 PM
BRACE! BRACE! BRACE!

Whoop....whoop....whoop...this is not a drill.

HumnHilghtFreel
03-07-2007, 03:05 PM
I can see where he's coming from. The thread recently about the way fans treated Griffey comes to mind.

I think Washington is still in a state where they're just happy to have baseball again and don't expect much. Cincinnati is in a long streak of bad times and it weighs on the fans as much as the players.

Redsland
03-07-2007, 03:08 PM
Translation: In Cincinnati, they don't like it when you fail. In Washington, they don't care either way.

Degenerate39
03-07-2007, 03:08 PM
Well you know Austin if you don't want to be booed for striking out DONT STRIKE OUT.

Red Leader
03-07-2007, 03:09 PM
I'll be interested to hear a quote from Dan after the 2007 season.

They are going to SUCK this year. They could come close to losing 100.

Tom Servo
03-07-2007, 03:11 PM
Let's see how those cheers go if (when?) Kearns is injured for the better part of the next few years and struggles when he does play.

Highlifeman21
03-07-2007, 03:11 PM
Well you know Austin if you don't want to be booed for striking out DONT STRIKE OUT.

I know I wish Austin Kearns was still striking out for us in RF.

Imagine the defense in the OF with Denorfia and Kearns. Makes me weak in the knees, and brings a tear to my eye.

Ah, what might have been.

BRM
03-07-2007, 03:11 PM
I think Washington is still in a state where they're just happy to have baseball again and don't expect much. Cincinnati is in a long streak of bad times and it weighs on the fans as much as the players.

That's kind of how I see it. They were that way in Denver for awhile too. Years of Rockies suckitude have changed the atmosphere somewhat though. Give Washington 5 or 6 straight losing seasons and I'm betting the fans will be a little harder on the players than they are now.

texasdave
03-07-2007, 03:16 PM
'Cuz in Cincy we loves us some booing. :kearns: Booooo!!!

Chip R
03-07-2007, 03:16 PM
Here's the actual article from the Cincinnati Post

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070306/SPT05/703060326/1027

Kearns out of his comfort zone
Ex-Red trying to live up to expectations

By Barry Svrluga
Washington Post

VIERA, Fla. - There are still remnants of Austin Kearns's old life in his new one. Each day, when he leaves the Washington Nationals' clubhouse at Space Coast Stadium, he puts his blue Kentucky basketball hat backward on his head, a reminder of where he came from and where he still lives. But the stunned expression is gone. The uncertainty of last summer was exchanged for a three-year contract, for stability.

"The comfort factor," Kearns said, "is completely different."

This is Kearns's first spring training as a National, and the first time he enters a season knowing he will be more than a four-hour drive from his home on the outskirts of Lexington, Ky. Coming up, the broad-shouldered right fielder was never out of range of his home base, whether it be Class A ball in Dayton, Ohio, the next step in Chattanooga, Tenn., or Class AAA down the road in Louisville. When he made it to Cincinnati as a major leaguer in 2002, his father, Dan, could drive up from Lexington and be at almost every game.

"You get so spoiled playing close to home," Kearns said. "You can go home whenever you want to. You're around the people you know. Your family can come visit you.

"But then you get further away, and you realize what most guys go through."

That was Kearns last summer, the hometown hero who suddenly became most guys, just another commodity who could be shipped out. Last July 13, Kearns's wife, Abby, drove him from Lexington, where he had spent the all-star break, back to Cincinnati. Dan Kearns was going to drive up that night.

"But before I got there, I got the call," Dan Kearns said this week. "He said, 'Don't bother coming.' "

Trades like the eight-player deal that sent Kearns and infielder Felipe Lopez to Washington happen every year. But this one rattled Kearns, the seventh pick of the 1998 draft who has yet to fully realize the potential so many saw in him. Ask Bob Boone, the Nationals' director of player development who managed Kearns in Cincinnati, what he expected Kearns to be by now, at 26, and the answer is blunt: "A super-duper star," Boone said.

Yet he isn't. And here's a small list of reasons: torn thumb ligament (2001); strained hamstring (2002); rotator cuff surgery (2003); broken left forearm and right thumb surgery (2004). It got to the point that Kearns, an affable guy, became wary of discussing his health.

"It just started bugging the crap out of me, answering that question every spring," Kearns said. "I just told people, 'Look, I'm not talking about it. It's over with.' "

There was, Kearns said, nothing worse than the summer of 2003. He was coming off a 107-game rookie year in which he hit .315. The first two months of '03, "he was just crushing the ball," said Boone, the Reds' manager at the time.

On May 21, Kearns doubled in the seventh inning at home against the Atlanta Braves, and moved up to third. Reliever Ray King, now a National, was on the mound for the Braves, and he uncorked a ball that got by Javy Lopez, the Braves' catcher.

"As old and slow as I am," said Dan Kearns, who was at the game, "I would have tried to score."

So Austin took off for the plate. But Lopez pounced on the ball, and King covered home. King, who is listed at 240 pounds, collided with Kearns as he tagged him out. "It was ugly," Dan Kearns said, "and it was awkward."

Austin Kearns returned to right for the top of the eighth. He finished with three RBI. The Reds won, and at game's end, Kearns was hitting .309, slugging .599. He had played in 45 games, had 44 RBI.

The next day, he couldn't raise his arm above his head. He played anyway. He underwent daily rehabilitation. His shoulder got no better. He stopped hitting. He kept playing.

"I'm stubborn," Kearns said. "I've always kind of thought if you can be out there, you should go out there. That's one of my biggest pet peeves. I hate it when a guy gets nicked up or something and goes down like he was shot, and all the trainers and everybody comes running out, and then he stays in the game. I've just never been like that.

"But looking back, it probably wasn't the smart thing to do."

Over the next 37 games, Kearns hit .208, slugged .277. In July, he went on the disabled list. Doctors found damage in his right shoulder. He had surgery.

And watched from the dugout.

"I was going nuts," he said.

All that, he said, was the hardest. Harder than being sent to the minors in 2005. Harder, even, than the trade. Kearns met the Nationals in Pittsburgh for his first series with them. He had one hit in the series. At the end of a six-game road trip, Kearns was 4-for-22.

"It was just the surprise factor," Dan Kearns said. "Usually, rumors are flying around, and people hear things and expect things. He didn't have a clue."

Abby Kearns was pregnant with the couple's second son. He didn't know where they would live. He didn't know who he would get along with.

And then he arrived in Washington. The team was in last place, where it spent almost all of 2006. But the sale to the family of Theodore Lerner was complete. The new owners held a ceremonial "grand reopening" of RFK Stadium. Each game of the six-day homestand drew more than 29,000 people.

"I'm telling you, those fans made a difference for him," Dan Kearns said. "They talk about Cincinnati being a great baseball town, but they look for you to strike out so they can boo. Here they were, Washington, in last place, and they cheered everything."

Kearns finished out the year with the Nationals, hitting just .250 for his new club. But general manager Jim Bowden, who drafted Kearns when he was with Cincinnati, saw what Kearns could do, not what he had done. As Boone said, "The sky's still the limit."

So in January, Kearns signed his three-year deal, which guarantees him $17.5 million and, should the club pick up an option for a fourth season, would pay him $26.5 million.

"I just got convinced that the team was going in the right direction," Kearns said.

After one Grapefruit League victory, Kearns stood in the Nationals' clubhouse, his locker squarely in the middle of the other pieces of the team's future, Felipe Lopez, third baseman Ryan Zimmerman, catcher Brian Schneider and first baseman Nick Johnson. Zimmerman said goodbye as he ambled out, and Kearns pulled on that Kentucky basketball cap backward. He headed out himself, as comfortable as could be.

Matt700wlw
03-07-2007, 03:17 PM
You want harsh? Go to New York.

Redsland
03-07-2007, 03:17 PM
Imagine the defense in the OF with Denorfia and Kearns.
If you want to watch Deno play, I can recommend some hotels in Louisville.

westofyou
03-07-2007, 03:17 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/04/AR2007030401261.html


For Kearns, It's Home and Away

By Barry Svrluga
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, March 5, 2007; Page E01

VIERA, Fla., March 4 -- There are still remnants of Austin Kearns's old life in his new one. Each day, when he leaves the Washington Nationals' clubhouse at Space Coast Stadium, he puts his blue Kentucky basketball hat backward on his head, a reminder of where he came from and where he still lives. But the stunned expression is gone. The handshakes and introductions were swapped for a constant stream of text messages with teammates. The uncertainty of last summer was exchanged for a three-year contract, for stability.

"The comfort factor," Kearns said, "is completely different."

This is Kearns's first spring training as a National, the first time he knows he will enter a season and be more than a four-hour drive from his home on the outskirts of Lexington, Ky. Coming up, the broad-shouldered right fielder was never out of range of his home base, whether it be Class A ball in Dayton, Ohio, the next step in Chattanooga or Class AAA down the road in Louisville. By the time he made it to Cincinnati as a major leaguer in 2002, his father, Dan, could drive up the road from Lexington and be at almost every game.

"You get so spoiled playing close to home," Kearns said. "You can go home whenever you want to. You're around the people you know. Your family can come visit you.

"But then you get further away, and you realize what most guys go through."

That was Kearns last summer, the hometown hero who suddenly became most guys, just another commodity who could be shipped out. Last July 13, Kearns's wife, Abby, drove him from Lexington, where he had spent the all-star break, back to Cincinnati. Dan Kearns was going to drive up that night.

"But before I got there, I got the call," Dan Kearns said Sunday. "He said, 'Don't bother coming.' "

Trades like the eight-player deal that sent Kearns and infielder Felipe Lopez to Washington happen every year. But this one rattled Kearns, the seventh pick of the 1998 draft who has yet to fully realize the potential so many saw in him. Ask Bob Boone, the Nationals' director of player development who managed Kearns in Cincinnati, what he expected Kearns to be by now, at 26, and the answer is blunt: "A super-duper star," Boone said.

Yet he isn't. And here's a small list of reasons: torn thumb ligament (2001); strained hamstring (2002); rotator cuff surgery (2003); broken left forearm and right thumb surgery (2004). It got to the point that Kearns, an affable guy, came to spring training in 2005 wary of discussing his health.

"It just started bugging the crap out of me, answering that question every spring," Kearns said. "I just told people, 'Look, I'm not talking about it. It's over with.' "

There was, Kearns said, nothing worse than the summer of 2003. He was coming off a 107-game debut as a rookie the year before in which he hit .315. The first two months of '03, "he was just crushing the ball," said Boone, the Reds' manager at the time.

On May 21, Kearns doubled in the seventh inning of a home game against the Atlanta Braves. Dan Kearns was in the stands, and his son moved up to third. Reliever Ray King, now a National, was on the mound for the Braves, and he uncorked a ball that got by Javy Lopez, the Braves' catcher.

"As old and slow as I am," Dan Kearns said, "I would have tried to score."

So Austin took off for the plate. But Lopez pounced on the ball, and King covered home. King, who is listed at 240 pounds, collided with Kearns as he tagged him out. "It was ugly," Dan Kearns said, "and it was awkward."

Austin Kearns returned to right for the top of the eighth. He finished with three RBI. The Reds won that night, and at game's end, Kearns was hitting .309, slugging .599. He had played in 45 games, had 44 RBI.

The next day, he couldn't raise his arm above his head. He played anyway. He underwent daily rehabilitation. His shoulder got no better. He stopped hitting. He kept playing.

"I'm stubborn," he said. "I've always kind of thought if you can be out there, you should go out there. That's one of my biggest pet peeves. I hate it when a guy gets nicked up or something and goes down like he was shot, and all the trainers and everybody comes running out, and then he stays in the game. I've just never been like that.

"But looking back, it probably wasn't the smart thing to do."

Over the next 37 games, Kearns hit .208, slugged .277. In July, he went on the disabled list. Doctors found damage in his right shoulder. He underwent the surgery.

That September, the Chicago Cubs came to Cincinnati fighting for a playoff spot, creating a buzz. One night, Kearns watched the first few innings from the dugout. But he couldn't stand it.

"I was going nuts," he said. He headed to the clubhouse. If he couldn't play, he wouldn't watch.

All that, he said, was the hardest. Harder than being sent to the minors in 2005. Harder, even, than the trade. Kearns met the Nationals in Pittsburgh for his first series with his new club. He promptly had one hit in the series, prompting then-manager Frank Robinson gave him a day off. At the end of a six-game road trip, Kearns was 4 for 22 as a National.

"It was just the surprise factor," Dan Kearns said. "Usually, rumors are flying around, and people hear things and expect things. He didn't have a clue."

Abby Kearns was pregnant with the couple's second son. He didn't know where they would live. He didn't know who he would get along with.

And then he arrived in Washington. The team was in last place, where it spent almost all of 2006. But the sale to the family of Theodore Lerner was complete. The new owners held a ceremonial "grand reopening" of RFK Stadium. Each game of the six-day homestand drew more than 29,000 people.

"I'm telling you, those fans made a difference for him," Dan Kearns said. "They talk about Cincinnati being a great baseball town, but they look for you to strike out so they can boo. Here they were, Washington, in last place, and they cheered everything."

Kearns finished out the year with the Nationals, hitting just .250 for his new club. But General Manager Jim Bowden, who drafted Kearns when he was with Cincinnati, still saw what Kearns could do, not what he had done. As Boone said, "The sky's still the limit."

So in January, Kearns signed his three-year deal, which guarantees him $17.5 million and, should the club pick up an option for a fourth season, would pay him $26.5 million.

"I just got convinced that the team was going in the right direction," he said.

On Sunday afternoon, after he went hitless in three at-bats of a Grapefruit League victory over the Los Angeles Dodgers, Kearns stood in the Nationals' clubhouse, his locker squarely in the middle of the other pieces of the team's future, Lopez, third baseman Ryan Zimmerman, catcher Brian Schneider and first baseman Nick Johnson. Zimmerman said goodbye as he ambled out, and Kearns pulled on that Kentucky basketball cap backward. He headed out himself, as comfortable as could be.

"I feel like what I'm supposed to do," Kearns said, "has just been postponed."

BRM
03-07-2007, 03:21 PM
If you want to watch Deno play, I can recommend some hotels in Louisville.

A friend of mine has season tickets for the Bats. I'll ask him to give me updates on Deno once the season starts.

George Anderson
03-07-2007, 03:21 PM
Dan Kearns that is (Austin's father)

Washington Post


"I'm telling you, those Nationals fans made a difference for him," Dan Kearns said. "They talk about Cincinnati being a great baseball town, but they look for you to strike out so they can boo. Here they were, Washington, in last place, and they cheered everything."

Wow, Dan Kearns has caught on to us. How did he find out I get my jollies driving two and a half hours and forking out a hundreds bucks or so just to boo people.

Tom Servo
03-07-2007, 03:22 PM
"I just got convinced that the team was going in the right direction," Kearns said.

Translation: "The Nationals offered me a boatload of guaranteed money that I'm in no position to turn down."

Always Red
03-07-2007, 03:24 PM
I have no problems with Kearns, either, and wish he were still in RF for the Reds.

As far as his dad goes, that's just a dad talking. It has to hurt to hear fans booing and cussing at your son.

I wish him the best, except when he's playing the Reds!

M2
03-07-2007, 03:28 PM
Reds fans are frustrated by a six-year slide after decades of living high on the hog. DC fans are in "Yippee, we've got a team!" mode.

Though Cincinnati should be careful not to become known as the little Philadelphia. It's become a bit of tough environment for young players.

guttle11
03-07-2007, 03:30 PM
I think Austin feels a lot bigger now that he's in Washington and away from all the booing.

osuceltic
03-07-2007, 03:31 PM
As usual with Kearns, he accepts no responsibility for anything and blames his struggles on someone else.

GoReds
03-07-2007, 03:31 PM
It just seems that Austin got too "comfortable" in Cincy. If it takes a trade to wake him up, then I wish him the best and hope that happened.

Then again, he just signed a lucrative deal. Sounds like he's feeling comfortable again.

Hey Meat
03-07-2007, 03:32 PM
If you want to watch Deno play, I can recommend some hotels in Louisville.
HA! HA HA!, but true, I doubt that Denorfia makes the opening day 25 man roster.

bucksfan2
03-07-2007, 03:35 PM
It just seems that Austin got too "comfortable" in Cincy. If it takes a trade to wake him up, then I wish him the best and hope that happened.

Then again, he just signed a lucrative deal. Sounds like he's feeling comfortable again.

He was way too comfortable after his first half of his rookie season. Kearns then got fat and lazy and didn't show up to play in shape. I think many cincy fans think he squandered his talent. If you want fans to be happy when you are in last place what kind of competitor are you?

Caveat Emperor
03-07-2007, 03:38 PM
Though Cincinnati should be careful not to become known as the little Philadelphia. It's become a bit of tough environment for young players.

With every losing season that passes, Pete Rose moves just a bit faster and hustles just a bit harder in people's memories.

If the Reds don't win a pennant soon, fans are going to start believing he was on first base before the ball was even pitched.

Matt700wlw
03-07-2007, 03:39 PM
If the Reds don't win a pennant soon, fans are going to start believing he was on first base before the ball was even pitched.


You mean, he wasn't??? :D

Dunner44
03-07-2007, 03:39 PM
Its so funny how much Washington is Reds EAST. I didn't know Boone was the Nats' director of player development... who's next? Uncle Carl?

cacollinsmba
03-07-2007, 03:42 PM
Translation: "The Nationals offered me a boatload of guaranteed money that I'm in no position to turn down."

The Nats do have the new stadium opening up next year, so that should hopefully give the team a bit of bounce in terms of payroll. But yeah, losing Soriano and getting nothing for him would not exactly lead me to the same conclusion that Kearns came to.

captainmorgan07
03-07-2007, 03:49 PM
someone tell mr.kearns maybe we wouldn't boo if he stayed healthy and would show some work ethic and not aggitate us when he comes into camp over weight

Kc61
03-07-2007, 03:51 PM
I know I wish Austin Kearns was still striking out for us in RF.

Imagine the defense in the OF with Denorfia and Kearns. Makes me weak in the knees, and brings a tear to my eye.

Ah, what might have been.

Huh? Kearns has a very good arm and makes plays on the balls hit near him. But he doesn't cover a lot of ground. When Freel took over in right field last year, it was obvious that he was getting to many more fly balls than Kearns did.

Indeed I'm sure that one of the reasons Krivsky obviously wanted to move Kearns was that an outfield of Griffey, Dunn and Kearns was, collectively, just too slow.

Matt700wlw
03-07-2007, 03:53 PM
Huh? Kearns has a very good arm and makes plays on the balls hit near him. But he doesn't cover a lot of ground. When Freel took over in right field last year, it was obvious that he was getting to many more fly balls than Kearns did.

Indeed I'm sure that one of the reasons Krivsky obviously wanted to move Kearns was that an outfield of Griffey, Dunn and Kearns was, collectively, just too slow.


Hamilton has more power, a better arm, and better speed. If he pans out as a big leaguer, he'll make us all forget about Austin Kearns.

And that's not a shot at Austin Kearns.

cacollinsmba
03-07-2007, 03:55 PM
Its so funny how much Washington is Reds EAST. I didn't know Boone was the Nats' director of player development... who's next? Uncle Carl?


Let's see who I can name...

Kearns, Lopez, Wagner on the 40 man
Michilak, Jiminez, Dmitri, Womack and Josh Hall as non-roster invitees
Bowden, Boone, Larkin and Rijo in the front office

And a couple blasts from the past on the current coaching staff...

Who'd I miss??

Joseph
03-07-2007, 03:57 PM
Its so funny how much Washington is Reds EAST. I didn't know Boone was the Nats' director of player development... who's next? Uncle Carl?

It's sad when you are looking for castoffs from the organization we've had the last few years.

That said, I like Kearns and wish he was still here. I liked Lopez, but once he was gone I took off my 'reds blinders' and saw all his short comings as a player.

cacollinsmba
03-07-2007, 04:03 PM
Let's see who I can name...

Kearns, Lopez, Wagner on the 40 man
Michilak, Jiminez, Dmitri, Womack and Josh Hall as non-roster invitees
Bowden, Boone, Larkin and Rijo in the front office

And a couple blasts from the past on the current coaching staff...

Who'd I miss??

I forgot to mention Rich Aponte, who although I don't believe played for the Reds, was one of 1,324 people thanked by Dan O'Brien in his debut press conference as Reds GM. Thank you, Angry Guys. :D

pedro
03-07-2007, 04:07 PM
yeah those fans made such a huge difference that Austin put up a .750 OPS at RFK.

Next.

oneupper
03-07-2007, 04:08 PM
I don't miss Kearns at all. Just disappointed in what we got in return for him.

Highlifeman21
03-07-2007, 04:10 PM
Huh? Kearns has a very good arm and makes plays on the balls hit near him. But he doesn't cover a lot of ground. When Freel took over in right field last year, it was obvious that he was getting to many more fly balls than Kearns did.

Indeed I'm sure that one of the reasons Krivsky obviously wanted to move Kearns was that an outfield of Griffey, Dunn and Kearns was, collectively, just too slow.

Kearns' break/judgment of flyballs > Freel's break/judgment of flyballs

While Kearns won't win many footraces, he's a better OF overall than Ryan Freel. Freel just uses his only major talent, his speed, to mask his deficiencies.

Freel plays with heart, plays fearless, but almost plays reckless. He doesn't strike me as a smart player, which seems to be evident by his lack of base-running aptitude. If we didn't have Brandon Phillips or Alex Gonzalez, I would think Ryan Freel would easily be our starting 2B, but unfortunately he's not, and personally I don't think he's good enough to be a starting OF, even with Griffey's declining skillsets.

If I had my choice between Kearns and Freel, I'd pick Kearns 8 days a week.

AccordinglyReds
03-07-2007, 04:11 PM
I'm looking forward to late May when the Nationals come to Cincinnati.

westofyou
03-07-2007, 04:14 PM
If I had my choice between Kearns and Freel, I'd pick Kearns 8 days a week.

I'm sorry, The Beatles own the term "Eight Days a Week" and as a known "Beatle Hater" they would prefer you not use the term in a public forum.

Signed The Beatles Lawyer
http://0li.tripod.com/06/simpsons_lawyer_md.jpg

Team Clark
03-07-2007, 04:17 PM
Kearns' break/judgment of flyballs > Freel's break/judgment of flyballs

While Kearns won't win many footraces, he's a better OF overall than Ryan Freel. Freel just uses his only major talent, his speed, to mask his deficiencies.

Freel plays with heart, plays fearless, but almost plays reckless. He doesn't strike me as a smart player, which seems to be evident by his lack of base-running aptitude. If we didn't have Brandon Phillips or Alex Gonzalez, I would think Ryan Freel would easily be our starting 2B, but unfortunately he's not, and personally I don't think he's good enough to be a starting OF, even with Griffey's declining skillsets.

If I had my choice between Kearns and Freel, I'd pick Kearns 8 days a week.

I can agree that Freel's speed makes up for any lack of footwork/jumps. There are a lot of baseball players in general with deficient mechanics of the game. However, Austin was horrible going to his right and anything over his head required a circus catch. I'll take Freel's speed. You can teach footwork. You can't teach speed and Hustle. Kearns SEVERELY lacked both his last few seasons. From what I am reading and hearing about Hamilton's OF play he may make Freel and Kearns look like they are standing still.

Red Leader
03-07-2007, 04:17 PM
I'd pick him 169 hours a week, then. :D

CTA513
03-07-2007, 04:19 PM
As usual with Kearns, he accepts no responsibility for anything and blames his struggles on someone else.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g205/CTA513/blamegame1.jpg

RANDY IN INDY
03-07-2007, 04:29 PM
I can agree that Freel's speed makes up for any lack of footwork/jumps. There are a lot of baseball players in general with deficient mechanics of the game. However, Austin was horrible going to his right and anything over his head required a circus catch. I'll take Freel's speed. You can teach footwork. You can't teach speed and Hustle. Kearns SEVERELY lacked both his last few seasons. From what I am reading and hearing about Hamilton's OF play he may make Freel and Kearns look like they are standing still.

Kearns always got a lot of credit for being a real good outfielder, but after his first year, I noticed that he did not get good jumps and really had problems with balls hit over his head. His play in the outfield really suffered with the added pounds. Glad you pointed that out, Team Clark. His arm was a plus, and he charged balls in front of him well.

Cyclone792
03-07-2007, 04:55 PM
I'm looking forward to late May when the Nationals come to Cincinnati.

So am I.

I'll sit there and watch a half empty ballpark collectively boo one of its former players, all because said former player's father implied that the city isn't a baseball town. And it'll be comical, because in reality that former player's father is absolutely correct in that implication, and the site of a half empty baseball stadium will be all the proof he needs.

After all, we are talking about a supposed baseball town that still couldn't fill its stadium during the final month plus of 2006 despite the team hanging around in a playoff chase and ownership slashing ticket prices in half. That itself is appalling for a supposed baseball town, and Reds fans should be embarrassed.

Cincinnati can be classified as a baseball town on exactly one day of the year: Opening Day. Outside of a handful hardcore fans, the other 364 days of the year sees most Reds fans just living in the past pretending to be a baseball town, when in reality, it's more like a ghost town.

WMR
03-07-2007, 05:02 PM
So am I.

I'll sit there and watch a half empty ballpark collectively boo one of its former players, all because said former player's father implied that the city isn't a baseball town. And it'll be comical, because in reality that former player's father is absolutely correct in that implication, and the site of a half empty baseball stadium will be all the proof he needs.

After all, we are talking about a supposed baseball town that still couldn't fill its stadium during the final month plus of 2006 despite the team hanging around in a playoff chase and ownership slashing ticket prices in half. That itself is appalling for a supposed baseball town, and Reds fans should be embarrassed.

Cincinnati can be classified as a baseball town on exactly one day of the year: Opening Day. Outside of a handful hardcore fans, the other 364 days of the year sees most Reds fans just living in the past pretending to be a baseball town, when in reality, it's more like a ghost town.

What kills me is just how many dumb fans there are in Cincy... I dunno, maybe that's just baseball fans everwhere, but I'm not sure I can remember a single time when I've sat down next to someone, struck up a conversation, and heard anything other than the same, cliched, unfair baseball opinions parroted over and over and over...

Red Leader
03-07-2007, 05:06 PM
What kills me is just how many dumb fans there are in Cincy... I dunno, maybe that's just baseball fans everwhere, but I'm not sure I can remember a single time when I've sat down next to someone, struck up a conversation, and heard anything other than the same, cliched, unfair baseball opinions parroted over and over and over...

You mean Marty-speak? :dunno: ;)

westofyou
03-07-2007, 05:07 PM
I dunno, maybe that's just baseball fans everwhere,

http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/images/2002/10/24/NlNVPDbi.jpg

http://www.trevorcarpenter.com/images/ryan01.jpg

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/mark_bechtel/09/30/indians.race/t1_indians.jpg

hebroncougar
03-07-2007, 05:50 PM
So am I.

I'll sit there and watch a half empty ballpark collectively boo one of its former players, all because said former player's father implied that the city isn't a baseball town. And it'll be comical, because in reality that former player's father is absolutely correct in that implication, and the site of a half empty baseball stadium will be all the proof he needs.

After all, we are talking about a supposed baseball town that still couldn't fill its stadium during the final month plus of 2006 despite the team hanging around in a playoff chase and ownership slashing ticket prices in half. That itself is appalling for a supposed baseball town, and Reds fans should be embarrassed.

Cincinnati can be classified as a baseball town on exactly one day of the year: Opening Day. Outside of a handful hardcore fans, the other 364 days of the year sees most Reds fans just living in the past pretending to be a baseball town, when in reality, it's more like a ghost town.

Fans have been absolutely abused in this town for the past 10 years or so. Couple that with the way the Bengals were in the 90's, and you have alot of mistrusting fans. That along with the way the Griffey trade hasn't worked out, and payroll has been stuck because of that trade, the promise of competitiveness after the new ballpark opened, I can see why fans stay away. I'm sure people remember when Brooklyn was a hotbed for baseball, as was Atlanta when they won (and I remember playoff games not being sold out there), and so on. I think the new "fans" are more ignorant because they just don't have the attention span they once did, nor do they appreciate the subtle non violent battles that happen in a baseball game. Baseball is a patient thinking man's (or woman's) game, and that just really doesn't fit into alot of people's timeframe, or their intelligence level for that matter.

Cedric
03-07-2007, 05:53 PM
So am I.

I'll sit there and watch a half empty ballpark collectively boo one of its former players, all because said former player's father implied that the city isn't a baseball town. And it'll be comical, because in reality that former player's father is absolutely correct in that implication, and the site of a half empty baseball stadium will be all the proof he needs.

After all, we are talking about a supposed baseball town that still couldn't fill its stadium during the final month plus of 2006 despite the team hanging around in a playoff chase and ownership slashing ticket prices in half. That itself is appalling for a supposed baseball town, and Reds fans should be embarrassed.

Cincinnati can be classified as a baseball town on exactly one day of the year: Opening Day. Outside of a handful hardcore fans, the other 364 days of the year sees most Reds fans just living in the past pretending to be a baseball town, when in reality, it's more like a ghost town.

I'm glad you are so open minded about the past ten years. What is a "baseball town" anyway? Until someone can define such a stupid term than I think these debates mouthing our own fans is just idiotic.

fargo55
03-07-2007, 05:54 PM
I like the Rockies comparison. What I believe the "Elder Kearns" is noticing, is the relative lack of experienced fans in attendance. The double glazed doughnut look on the faces of some of the National's fans will dry out. When you have Austin applauded for a long fly-out, the National"s fans are at fault for failing to recognize that he is going to the bench, not to a base, where he might have helped produce some offense. During the Rockies last decade, the fans simply learned the game and what is worth cheering for. The National's fans will follow the same path and the demands will change. The presence of baseball should be worth a cheer. The National's fans, with time, will become collectively more sophisticated and more like the Reds fans. Reds fans have a rich history with their team and are quick to applaud a great effort, regardless of that particular day's outcome. We also know what should be Booed. I've seen it happen.

deltachi8
03-07-2007, 06:25 PM
Ya know, after hearing fans boo and yell at Adam Dunn for striking out in the first inning of a spring training game on March 5, the elder Mr. Kearns probably has a point.

buckeyenut
03-07-2007, 06:35 PM
I know I wish Austin Kearns was still striking out for us in RF.

Imagine the defense in the OF with Denorfia and Kearns. Makes me weak in the knees, and brings a tear to my eye.

Ah, what might have been.

Not to mention Jr in LF where his mind would make up for his skills and Dunn at 1B. With Hamilton and Freel and Hatteberg coming off the bench. Offense AND defense. Oy!

buckeyenut
03-07-2007, 06:38 PM
So am I.

I'll sit there and watch a half empty ballpark collectively boo one of its former players, all because said former player's father implied that the city isn't a baseball town. And it'll be comical, because in reality that former player's father is absolutely correct in that implication, and the site of a half empty baseball stadium will be all the proof he needs.

After all, we are talking about a supposed baseball town that still couldn't fill its stadium during the final month plus of 2006 despite the team hanging around in a playoff chase and ownership slashing ticket prices in half. That itself is appalling for a supposed baseball town, and Reds fans should be embarrassed.

Cincinnati can be classified as a baseball town on exactly one day of the year: Opening Day. Outside of a handful hardcore fans, the other 364 days of the year sees most Reds fans just living in the past pretending to be a baseball town, when in reality, it's more like a ghost town.


I think you are absolutely right. I just hope two years from now that will no longer be true. That some of the fans that have beaten down the last 10 years by bad teams and bad marketing will finally return. That we will have a team worth turning out for.

reds44
03-07-2007, 06:39 PM
The Nationals have fans?

Cyclone792
03-07-2007, 06:51 PM
Fans have been absolutely abused in this town for the past 10 years or so. Couple that with the way the Bengals were in the 90's, and you have alot of mistrusting fans. That along with the way the Griffey trade hasn't worked out, and payroll has been stuck because of that trade, the promise of competitiveness after the new ballpark opened, I can see why fans stay away.

There is no excuse, no excuse whatsoever, for a new MLB stadium to sit around half empty when the home team is in a pennant chase and also when ownership slashes ticket prices in half. That was absolutely absurd what happened last season, and unfortunately it's nothing new here in Cincinnati.

Go back to 1999. On August 16th, the Reds were tied with the Houston Astros for the NL Central lead as they welcomed in the Pirates for a four game series. It's mid August, the team is tied for first in the division and also right in the thick of the NL Wildcard race. And how did the fans respond? Not one of those four games saw 20k fans walk through the gates. Not a single game during that series. In fact, until the final four regular season home games against St. Louis, the Reds couldn't even average 25k per game during those final two months.

That's flat out ridiculous, and what we saw in 2006 was just a mirror of what we saw in 1999 with the fans' response toward the team actually being in a pennant race.

vaticanplum
03-07-2007, 07:13 PM
I'm glad you are so open minded about the past ten years. What is a "baseball town" anyway? Until someone can define such a stupid term than I think these debates mouthing our own fans is just idiotic.

I'm not sure what the exact definition of a "baseball town" is either, but I know that Cincinnati isn't one. I can meet 20 people in a week, and an average of one of them will be able to speak with even a basic level of knowledge about the current team. Roughly one of every four of those is from out of town. I was looking forward to being in Cincinnati for this reason, to be able to talk about my team, and the truth is I talked more intelligently about the Reds with more people when I lived in New York and Chicago. It's not even close.

I don't really care who's to blame for this, management or fans; they both play a part. I loathe the Bengals argument above all ("well, people are not going to pay attention to the Reds when the Bengals are doing well" -- what the hell, like there's not enough room for both of them. There are cities who can manage to fully support two baseball teams; I find it hard to believe that this city can't find it in themselves to follow a team in each sport.) I will say, though, that I believe the Reds' new ownership will be taking marked steps to change this. The city's not lost yet; the Reds haven't been quite that bad for quite long enough yet. But as it stands right now? This is a baseball history town, but not a baseball town.

cacollinsmba
03-07-2007, 07:14 PM
The Nationals have fans?

Well, the Nats are pretty representative of our Congress.

- They're about half red, half blue.
- They aren't very good at what they do.
- Some of them like to blame other people for their problems.
- They make a lot of money to not perform well.
- They spend more time on vacation than they do actually doing their job.
- The spend half of their working time out of town.
- Turnover of the roster probably won't help much anytime soon.

The main difference I see is that Congress has yet to demand a new stadium to increase revenues. :D

Blimpie
03-07-2007, 07:15 PM
I have no problems with Kearns, either, and wish he were still in RF for the Reds.

As far as his dad goes, that's just a dad talking. It has to hurt to hear fans booing and cussing at your son.

I wish him the best, except when he's playing the Reds!Bingo.

pedro
03-07-2007, 07:17 PM
There is no excuse, no excuse whatsoever, for a new MLB stadium to sit around half empty when the home team is in a pennant chase and also when ownership slashes ticket prices in half. That was absolutely absurd what happened last season, and unfortunately it's nothing new here in Cincinnati.

Go back to 1999. On August 16th, the Reds were tied with the Houston Astros for the NL Central lead as they welcomed in the Pirates for a four game series. It's mid August, the team is tied for first in the division and also right in the thick of the NL Wildcard race. And how did the fans respond? Not one of those four games saw 20k fans walk through the gates. Not a single game during that series. In fact, until the final four regular season home games against St. Louis, the Reds couldn't even average 25k per game during those final two months.

That's flat out ridiculous, and what we saw in 2006 was just a mirror of what we saw in 1999 with the fans' response toward the team actually being in a pennant race.

I think some of it is due to the ever expanding ex-urban bubble in south eastern Ohio. Much like Atlanta, which has similar attendance issues to Cincinnati, so much of the population has gravitated away from the city center and many of those people are the type who are honestly afraid to go into the city because they're scared of getting robbed, irrational as that may be.

westofyou
03-07-2007, 07:18 PM
This is a baseball history town, but not a baseball town.

Good call, the Reds win they come out, they lose they stay away. It's been proven, it's just the way it is. Meanwhile they love their past teams and mythologize them like no town I've ever been in.

hebroncougar
03-07-2007, 07:21 PM
There is no excuse, no excuse whatsoever, for a new MLB stadium to sit around half empty when the home team is in a pennant chase and also when ownership slashes ticket prices in half. That was absolutely absurd what happened last season, and unfortunately it's nothing new here in Cincinnati.

Go back to 1999. On August 16th, the Reds were tied with the Houston Astros for the NL Central lead as they welcomed in the Pirates for a four game series. It's mid August, the team is tied for first in the division and also right in the thick of the NL Wildcard race. And how did the fans respond? Not one of those four games saw 20k fans walk through the gates. Not a single game during that series. In fact, until the final four regular season home games against St. Louis, the Reds couldn't even average 25k per game during those final two months.

That's flat out ridiculous, and what we saw in 2006 was just a mirror of what we saw in 1999 with the fans' response toward the team actually being in a pennant race.

Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not making excuses, I'm stating facts. Alot of fans don't trust Reds ownership. Heck, I could also point out the fact that the fans wanted the park to be on Broadway Commons (and mind you the fans paid for the stadium for God's sake), but what did ownership bully their way to??? A ballpark on the riverfront. I don't think Reds average attendance was poor at all last year when you look at their overall record since 2000. Fans don't come out in droves in the middle of a good year, they generally will reward a team the next season. And if you want to point things out, maybe the fans were smarter than we are giving them credit for, how good were the Reds really last year??? Especially after the trade they made midseason.

pedro
03-07-2007, 07:27 PM
Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not making excuses, I'm stating facts. Alot of fans don't trust Reds ownership. Heck, I could also point out the fact that the fans wanted the park to be on Broadway Commons (and mind you the fans paid for the stadium for God's sake), but what did ownership bully their way to??? A ballpark on the riverfront. I don't think Reds average attendance was poor at all last year when you look at their overall record since 2000. Fans don't come out in droves in the middle of a good year, they generally will reward a team the next season. And if you want to point things out, maybe the fans were smarter than we are giving them credit for, how good were the Reds really last year??? Especially after the trade they made midseason.


I thought the location of th stadium was up for vote and broadway commons got shut down?

On Nov. 3, 1998, voters defeated a ballot issue that would have forced the county to build the new park in Over-the-Rhine.

http://www.cincinnati.com/local/downtown/D70html_12162003__GNDbroadway.ART_Other.html

hebroncougar
03-07-2007, 07:38 PM
I thought the location of th stadium was up for vote and broadway commons got shut down?

On Nov. 3, 1998, voters defeated a ballot issue that would have forced the county to build the new park in Over-the-Rhine.

http://www.cincinnati.com/local/downtown/D70html_12162003__GNDbroadway.ART_Other.html


You may be right, I can just remember what seemed like a large push for the park on Broadway Commons, and ownership wanted the riverfront spot due to the value of the land.

pedro
03-07-2007, 07:40 PM
You may be right, I can just remember what seemed like a large push for the park on Broadway Commons, and ownership wanted the riverfront spot due to the value of the land.

I'm sure there were a lot of people who would have preferred the other location.

And I'm sure there are a lot of people that would have been afraid to go there.

hebroncougar
03-07-2007, 07:45 PM
I'm sure there were a lot of people who would have preferred the other location.

And I'm sure there are a lot of people that would have been afraid to go there.

Kind of like now? :D Where in downtown Cincinnati would there be where you could hang around the ballpark before or after the game?

cacollinsmba
03-07-2007, 07:46 PM
I'm sure there were a lot of people who would have preferred the other location.

And I'm sure there are a lot of people that would have been afraid to go there.

Camden Yards in Baltimore was widely touted as the model for the Broadway location. However, talk to anyone from Baltimore and they will tell you that even today, they won't hang out after the game around Camden because the surrounding neighborhood is still a bad area.

uks2h
03-07-2007, 07:48 PM
Dan Kearns that is (Austin's father)

Washington Post


"I'm telling you, those Nationals fans made a difference for him," Dan Kearns said. "They talk about Cincinnati being a great baseball town, but they look for you to strike out so they can boo. Here they were, Washington, in last place, and they cheered everything."

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

westofyou
03-07-2007, 07:49 PM
I'm sure there were a lot of people who would have preferred the other location.

And I'm sure there are a lot of people that would have been afraid to go there.

http://www.citybeat.com/archives/1998/issue422/index.html


Frankly Speaking, the Reds Want No Part of Broadway Commons

John Allen, managing executive of the Cincinnati Reds, was invited to appear on WNKU's March 26 Speaking Frankly program to discuss the team's upcoming season. Frankly, most of the callers wanted to talk about the Reds' position on Broadway Commons. And, frankly, Allen didn't.

Allen explained that the team has been negotiating with county officials for a new stadium at the foot of Main Street bounded by Fort Washington Way, The Crown and Cinergy Field, known as "the Wedge." He said he was "cautiously optimistic" that an agreement of understanding could be worked out in the near future that would set in motion more detailed studies of the Wedge site.

When asked by a caller what his main objections to Broadway Commons were, Allen said the site was too costly -- land needed to be acquired, underground sewer lines rerouted and parking garages built -- and there were no hotels nearby. He also felt the Reds would be unfairly counted on as the catalyst of a neighborhood renaissance in nearby Over-the-Rhine.

"If we were to go (to Broadway Commons), we're being asked to be the economic cornerstone for development of an area that needs economic development," Allen said. "No one has a game plan or economic plan for Broadway Commons."

The caller then asked if Allen would be open to Broadway Commons if all of his cost concerns were addressed and covered by the county and/or city. Allen said no.

Another caller pressed the issue, saying that he and his fellow twentysomethings like to go to bars and restaurants before and after baseball games and that Over-the-Rhine's Main Street district offered the kind of attractions he wanted around a stadium site. Allen responded that he saw bars and restaurants as the Reds' competition.

"What do I survive off of?," Allen asked. "Beverage and food sales (inside the stadium)."

Answering another caller's question about whether the Reds felt any obligation to help promote downtown redevelopment because they were using public funds for their stadium, Allen obviously was growing impatient with the topic.

"What the Cincinnati Reds bring to this community far outweighs the sales tax that was passed in terms of economic benefit to the city...," he said. "We provide a tremendous amount to the city and the county just by existing and being here."

When the next caller asked that, if bars and restaurants were the Reds' competition, what then was planned for the entertainment district around the Wedge site, Allen said enough was enough.

"This is not a Broadway Commons argument," he said, disregarding the question. "We've been through all that. We're headed in all likelihood for baseball on Main Street, and I don't have any more to comment on that. I don't know what else we can say."

After a break, Allen went on to discuss Barry Larkin's injury problems, the Reds' upcoming promotional events and his own future with the team.

The irony in Allen's remarks, of course, is that we haven't "been through all that." There has been no credible public debate over the issue of stadium sites. None whatsoever.

Many recall the infamous meeting at the Albert B. Sabin Convention Center in November 1996 -- the last public meeting held to address stadium development -- when an official of county consultant Urban Design Associates declared that he saw no consensus on stadium sites. Of course, the vast majority of meeting attendees had expressed support for Broadway Commons. Since that meeting, for the last year and a half, the strategy employed by Reds stadium negotiators -- team officials, county officials and business leaders -- has been to avoid public input and dismiss any public opinion that arises while simultaneously claiming to be representing the people's best interests.

Reflecting on this dismissal of public input, Cincinnati City Councilman Todd Portune said the whole process of stadium siting has disgusted him.

"It's a classic example of the arrogance of placing personal interests ahead of the will and the interests of the public," Portune told CityBeat. "Not a single credible organization or urban planner has endorsed a river site for the Reds."

Allen's appearance on Speaking Frankly seemed to perfectly sum up the arrogance of power described by Portune: Shut up and leave us alone. We know what we're doing.

Phhhl
03-07-2007, 07:49 PM
Well, the Nats are pretty representative of our Congress.

- They're about half red, half blue.
- They aren't very good at what they do.
- Some of them like to blame other people for their problems.
- They make a lot of money to not perform well.
- They spend more time on vacation than they do actually doing their job.
- The spend half of their working time out of town.
- Turnover of the roster probably won't help much anytime soon.

The main difference I see is that Congress has yet to demand a new stadium to increase revenues. :D

:laugh: Excellent!

Cyclone792
03-07-2007, 07:51 PM
Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not making excuses, I'm stating facts. Alot of fans don't trust Reds ownership. Heck, I could also point out the fact that the fans wanted the park to be on Broadway Commons (and mind you the fans paid for the stadium for God's sake), but what did ownership bully their way to??? A ballpark on the riverfront. I don't think Reds average attendance was poor at all last year when you look at their overall record since 2000. Fans don't come out in droves in the middle of a good year, they generally will reward a team the next season. And if you want to point things out, maybe the fans were smarter than we are giving them credit for, how good were the Reds really last year??? Especially after the trade they made midseason.

I can tell that you're new around here. ;)

Stick around, and I guarantee you'll realize that I'm no big fan of incompetent baseball decisions. The Reds have made a gigantic array of idiotic baseball decisions over the past few years, and that's being kind with that statement. Like VP stated, the Reds organization deserves some blame for this.

But in no way, shape or fashion are the fans blameless for not showing up at the park. They are fair-weather fans at heart who drown themselves in nostalgia, and until that mindset changes, Cincinnati won't be anything like the current "baseball town" that people seem to believe it is. That may be harsh, but it's also reality.

The Reds averaged a little more than 26k per game, and while you don't think it's poor, the fact remains that they ranked 12th in the NL in attendance with 6k fewer fans than the average NL attendance of 32k+ per game. That's a half million fewer fans per year than simply the league average. Take out the Marlins 14k average, and the other 15 NL teams averaged over 33k per game. The Reds had 7k fewer fans per game than the collective average of every NL team sans Florida.

I know attendance spikes often occur the following season. However, toss in that several end of season games were half price ticket games, and those 2006 attendance figures are far from acceptable for a contending team playing in a four year old stadium.

Here's an interesting question: Do you think the Reds will have league average attendance figures (i.e. ~32k per game) in 2007?

I know my answer to that question.

pedro
03-07-2007, 07:51 PM
Another caller pressed the issue, saying that he and his fellow twentysomethings like to go to bars and restaurants before and after baseball games and that Over-the-Rhine's Main Street district offered the kind of attractions he wanted around a stadium site. Allen responded that he saw bars and restaurants as the Reds' competition. - John Allen

That is a very short sighted view IMO. I'm not surprised though.

hebroncougar
03-07-2007, 07:54 PM
Here's an interesting question: Do you think the Reds will have league average attendance figures (i.e. ~32k per game) in 2007?

I know my answer to that question.

32k? No........my guess would be in the 28.5k range. Hard to tell too........with most of the games on TV for the first time in a long time.

vaticanplum
03-07-2007, 07:58 PM
Another caller pressed the issue, saying that he and his fellow twentysomethings like to go to bars and restaurants before and after baseball games and that Over-the-Rhine's Main Street district offered the kind of attractions he wanted around a stadium site. Allen responded that he saw bars and restaurants as the Reds' competition. - John Allen

Yes John, that's why the Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs and Red Sox do so well in attendance. There's nothing else to do in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago or Boston but go to a baseball game.

Those old clubs on Main Street where people went to dance and troll for mates at midnight would be a huge competition problem for people who want to watch sports at 7 pm :bang:

Ltlabner
03-07-2007, 07:59 PM
Another caller pressed the issue, saying that he and his fellow twentysomethings like to go to bars and restaurants before and after baseball games and that Over-the-Rhine's Main Street district offered the kind of attractions he wanted around a stadium site. Allen responded that he saw bars and restaurants as the Reds' competition. - John Allen

That is a very short sighted view IMO. I'm not surprised though.

Oh dear god. What an idiotic comment. I wasn't a fan of the broadway commons location, but what a dumb thing to say.

Always Red
03-07-2007, 08:07 PM
Yes John, that's why the Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs and Red Sox do so well in attendance. There's nothing else to do in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago or Boston but go to a baseball game.

Those old clubs on Main Street where people went to dance and troll for mates at midnight would be a huge competition problem for people who want to watch sports at 7 pm :bang:

So, vp, what you're saying is that maybe John Allen is past his prime?? ;)

Because that's exactly what is wrong with the way the Reds are marketed around here- too many old men doing the same old thing they've always done.

Fact is, in the early 70's, all you needed to do was field a winner. None of us knew any better!! These days you need to start there, with a competitive team, but then you need all the entertainment to go along with it- places to meet before and after the game.

Now, I'm a child of the early 70's, so I understand the way it was. But I also have three teenaged daughters :bang: :bang: :bang: so I also understand modern day marketing (and especially the effects it has on young women.)

My girls love to go to the games with me, and they love Reds baseball. But they love the whole experience, not just the ballgame. That's just how it is today.

BUT, you have to START with good baseball, because Dad's not gonna go and spring for the tickets if there is not good baseball to watch. The rest is just icing on the cake for me.:beerme:

Cyclone792
03-07-2007, 08:07 PM
Another caller pressed the issue, saying that he and his fellow twentysomethings like to go to bars and restaurants before and after baseball games and that Over-the-Rhine's Main Street district offered the kind of attractions he wanted around a stadium site. Allen responded that he saw bars and restaurants as the Reds' competition. - John Allen

That is a very short sighted view IMO. I'm not surprised though.

Yep, that was an idiotic statement.

The main reason I'm aggravated with Delay Central - aka the Banks Project - is because I believe the Reds will reap some benefits once that project is actually finished. There's a handful of bars around the stadium, and Game Day gets a decent crowd before every game, but the Banks would help draw more people down near the park and ultimately in the park if it's ever completed.

CINCYREDS#1
03-07-2007, 08:19 PM
The only reason we would boo is because he SUCKED

reds fans cheer for the good things
i dont look for dunn to strikeout so i can boo
i want him to hit a home run so i can yell with the other fans

CINCYREDS#1
03-07-2007, 08:23 PM
QUOTE:There is no excuse, no excuse whatsoever, for a new MLB stadium to sit around half empty when the home team is in a pennant chase and also when ownership slashes ticket prices in half. That was absolutely absurd what happened last season, and unfortunately it's nothing new here in Cincinnati.

Go back to 1999. On August 16th, the Reds were tied with the Houston Astros for the NL Central lead as they welcomed in the Pirates for a four game series. It's mid August, the team is tied for first in the division and also right in the thick of the NL Wildcard race. And how did the fans respond? Not one of those four games saw 20k fans walk through the gates. Not a single game during that series. In fact, until the final four regular season home games against St. Louis, the Reds couldn't even average 25k per game during those final two months.

That's flat out ridiculous, and what we saw in 2006 was just a mirror of what we saw in 1999 with the fans' response toward the team actually being in a pennant race.


I think that its gonna b the same way with the reds as it was with the bengals.

as soon as the bengals got their playoff berth, fans flocked PBS to see them play.

when the reds go to the playoffs, more of the fans who have given up on the reds (i dont know why) will come and we will b sold out every night

MartyFan
03-07-2007, 08:40 PM
Let's see how those cheers go if (when?) Kearns is injured for the better part of the next few years and struggles when he does play.


How bout when he crashes into another team mate and knocks them out for the season?

M2
03-07-2007, 09:12 PM
Another caller pressed the issue, saying that he and his fellow twentysomethings like to go to bars and restaurants before and after baseball games and that Over-the-Rhine's Main Street district offered the kind of attractions he wanted around a stadium site. Allen responded that he saw bars and restaurants as the Reds' competition. - John Allen

That is a very short sighted view IMO. I'm not surprised though.

John Allen is a special man.


What is a "baseball town" anyway?

A) If you have to ask, you're not in one
B) Boston, Massachusetts
C) Depends on what you mean by "is"
D) All of the above

RedFanAlways1966
03-07-2007, 09:46 PM
Always a sensitive topic when the "love of their team" is applied to the entire fanbase. Especially here when most of us are diehard fans (or we probably wouldn't be here!). Been a real civil discussion though. I don't know how the entire fanbase thing s/b described in terms of whether the REDS fanbase makes Cincinnati a "baseball town" or not. One of those terms that really does not have a concrete definition. Attendance? Always cheering? I don't know.

Attendance can be deceptive (as mentioned here regarding the Rockies first five years or so)... people aren't always there b/c they are considered a "baseball town" (LA anyone?!?). Always cheering doesn't mean a lot to me... okay, Jimmy just made his 3rd error of the inning and I am not allowed to voice displeasure? I personally don't berate or boo my fav team, but sometimes I cannot blame those who do (w/in reason).

There are other variables that need to be considered with attendance.
* The economy of an area (MLB ain't cheap, my friends).
* The population of an area... NYC , LA or Chicago vs. Cincy, might matter. Sure it can be argued that the REDS have a large "surrounding area", but driving 2-4 hours makes it harder than hopping on the subway or metro.
* The salary discrepancies in MLB. Has to have some effect on season ticket packages when your team is being outspent 35% by three teams in your own division. People like winners who seem to have a chance... cannot blame them when it is their hard-earned money being spent.

The Bengals vs. REDS argument? Even in the Bengals worst years they averaged more per game than the Big Red Machine. Reasons? Playing once a week is more convenient than playing 6.5 times per week. Not all games are at home, so it is probably about once every two weeks vs. 3.5 times per week. People have kids and other responsibilities that don't allow them the time to attend many REDS games like they can attend all Bengals games. Costs... a Bengals ticket is about $60 (using guesstimates) with about $20 for parking. A REDS ticket is about $10 with about $6 for parking. $80 X 8 games = $640/year. $16 X 81 games = $1,296/year.

Since MLB went to 162 games in 1961 the REDS had their 16th best per game average in attendance (46 years). World Series teams: 1961 = 38th ; 1970 = 28th ; 1972 = 31st ; 1975 = 12th ; 1976 = 2nd ; 1990 = 7th. They averaged about 12,000 more per game than the 1961 NL champs did. They had their 3rd best year in % of seats bought in 2006 since the 1961 season (1961 = 18th ; 1972 = 35th ; 1975 = 15th ; 1976 = 5th ; 1990 = 11th). The top 3 years since 1961 of % of seats bought are all GABP years... 2003, 2004 & 2006.

Baseball town? I don't know the definition. I don't know that a fair definition exists.

dsmith421
03-07-2007, 09:52 PM
Kind of like now? :D Where in downtown Cincinnati would there be where you could hang around the ballpark before or after the game?

Ummm...pretty much everywhere south of Central Parkway.

dsmith421
03-07-2007, 09:54 PM
The only reason we would boo is because he SUCKED

I wish the Reds had more players that "sucked" like Austin Kearns.

I hope you don't have high hopes for Jeff Conine.

Chip R
03-07-2007, 10:42 PM
This is a baseball history town, but not a baseball town.


Wow! I wish I'd said that. That's just a brilliant statement.

This city is what it is. They will come out for Opening Day, promotions and if they are absolutely sure the Reds are a winner. It's always been like that and I don't think it's ever going to change. If the fans don't think the Reds are a contender, they won't come out to see them. Look at some of the attendence figures for some winning seasons on Retrosheet. Even during the heydey of the BRM they only drew 5-10K for a Wednesday night game against ATL.

hebroncougar
03-08-2007, 07:40 AM
Ummm...pretty much everywhere south of Central Parkway.

I'll take NKY thank you.

Ltlabner
03-08-2007, 07:47 AM
There is no excuse, no excuse whatsoever, for a new MLB stadium to sit around half empty when the home team is in a pennant chase and also when ownership slashes ticket prices in half. That was absolutely absurd what happened last season, and unfortunately it's nothing new here in Cincinnati..

Cyclone, I pretty much agree with you on this topic. Cincy is most definatley not a "baseball town" however that may be defined.

One thing, however. There was a chorus of "we're only in the hunt, because St. Louis stinks this year" on RZ last year every time excitement about the season was expressed. We were constantly reminded that it was artifical. That in a normal season we'd be 24 games back. It's all a mirrage! That anything the Reds did right was because another team gifted them something. This was a recurant theme on RZ last year.

The casual fans can figure that out too.

Ltlabner
03-08-2007, 07:53 AM
I think some of it is due to the ever expanding ex-urban bubble in south eastern Ohio. Much like Atlanta, which has similar attendance issues to Cincinnati, so much of the population has gravitated away from the city center and many of those people are the type who are honestly afraid to go into the city because they're scared of getting robbed, irrational as that may be.

Have you noticed the murder rates in the City latley? How in the world is avoiding an area where crime is spirling out of controll, where the mayor makes fighting crime his top priority, "irrational"?

Let's see, go to Kings Island where (1) I'll have lots more fun (2) be entertained all day long (3) while there's a chance I could die in a freak accident I'm likely not to get shot, stabbed, mugged or raped.........or go to a Reds game? Hummmmm.

While I agree 100% that this isn't a baseball town, and the geographical makeup of the city plays a role, I think it's only normal for the fanbase to be fickle when the team stinks for so long and the city surrounding the stadium is a crime ridden mess.

I wonder if anybody has ever studied if there is any correlation between a solid public transportation system in a metro area and the effects on the attendence of major leage sports venues.

Cedric
03-08-2007, 08:24 AM
John Allen is a special man.



A) If you have to ask, you're not in one
B) Boston, Massachusetts
C) Depends on what you mean by "is"
D) All of the above

Well if we can avoid being anything like the city of Boston than it's fine by me.

And I remember the days of dark, dank Fenway in the late 80's and early 90's. You'd know better than me though about that. Were they just in a little "baseball town" funk?
I suggest there are no "baseball towns". Baseball is just another entertainment option and management better not take anyone for granted.

Alot of people on this site blame the management for everything and mostly rightfully so, then you wonder why fans have turned off of the game. It's not really that crazy to me. The Reds haven't consistently won or cared about their fans in years and I don't blame people for not coming back. Maybe this not being a baseball town is a reasonable decision.

WMR
03-08-2007, 08:26 AM
Have you noticed the murder rates in the City latley? How in the world is avoiding an area where crime is spirling out of controll, where the mayor makes fighting crime his top priority, "irrational"?

Let's see, go to Kings Island where (1) I'll have lots more fun (2) be entertained all day long (3) while there's a chance I could die in a freak accident I'm likely not to get shot, stabbed, mugged or raped.........or go to a Reds game? Hummmmm.

While I agree 100% that this isn't a baseball town, and the geographical makeup of the city plays a role, I think it's only normal for the fanbase to be fickle when the team stinks for so long and the city surrounding the stadium is a crime ridden mess.

I wonder if anybody has ever studied if there is any correlation between a solid public transportation system in a metro area and the effects on the attendence of major leage sports venues.

There's sure not much dawdling after Yankee games in the Bronx.

Ltlabner
03-08-2007, 08:44 AM
I suggest there are no "baseball towns". Baseball is just another entertainment option and management better not take anyone for granted.

Maybe this not being a baseball town is a reasonable decision.

I'm not sure I agree there are no "baseball towns", but you've hit the nail on the head. This is simple market economics in play. Casual fans are voting with their dollars. When the Reds become a less apealing use of descressionary resources guess what happens...attendence drops.

You are dead right that it's a 'resonable' decision. Why spend the money on something that you aren't going to be entertained by? That's totally rational behavior. It may be dissapointing, or frustrating to us die hard types, but the fact is people are acting rationally. They are allocating their entertainment dollars the best way they see fit. And going to GABP is lost in a sea of choices.

Durring the BRM days you had a heck of lot more casual fans. That's partly because the BRM was winning, partly because baseball was still the national pastime. Thus you had a larger pool of casual fans who might turn into die hard fans.

Over time, however, the winning in Cincinnati has stopped, and baseball has become just another sport. Thus, there are fewer casual fans and much fewer die hard fans.

And one season of winning, that most folks here dissed as a mirrage, ain't going to rocket the Reds to the top of the entertainment options charts.

Always Red
03-08-2007, 08:51 AM
Have you noticed the murder rates in the City latley? How in the world is avoiding an area where crime is spirling out of controll, where the mayor makes fighting crime his top priority, "irrational"?

Let's see, go to Kings Island where (1) I'll have lots more fun (2) be entertained all day long (3) while there's a chance I could die in a freak accident I'm likely not to get shot, stabbed, mugged or raped.........or go to a Reds game? Hummmmm.

While I agree 100% that this isn't a baseball town, and the geographical makeup of the city plays a role, I think it's only normal for the fanbase to be fickle when the team stinks for so long and the city surrounding the stadium is a crime ridden mess.

I wonder if anybody has ever studied if there is any correlation between a solid public transportation system in a metro area and the effects on the attendence of major leage sports venues.

I see your point, but go back and recheck your stats, Abner, dig a little deeper.

99% of all "suburban" folks who are victimized in any way near the downtown area, or OTR, have wandered into the area in search of illegal drugs. Yes, the occasional purse-snatching happens, but heck, I read about that stuff happening at Eastgate Mall all of the time, too.

Ask any Cincinnati cop. He or she will tell you the same thing. Go to a Reds game, Bengals game, concert, Aronoff, etc, and you're fine, no problems. Even Music Hall. The West End is downright gentrified these days, have you seen all the new, high-end construction?

If you don't want to go down the slippery slope....don't go where it's slippery.

The problem is drugs, specifically. If you go into OTR looking for drugs, you may wind up mugged, raped or dead.

I park just to the west of the Freedom Center for Reds games. I have never once felt threatened or uncomfortable going to or from a Reds game.

Do you feel unsafe there?

hebroncougar
03-08-2007, 08:56 AM
The "no baseball town" argument is intriguing, especially after checking out attendance figures on baseballreference. That argument actually has a lot of credibility.

Ltlabner
03-08-2007, 09:01 AM
I see your point, but go back and recheck your stats, Abner, dig a little deeper.

I park just to the west of the Freedom Center for Reds games. I have never once felt threatened or uncomfortable going to or from a Reds game.

Do you feel unsafe there?

Actually, that's where my father and I park also. Yes, I feal safe there.

You've dug too deep. ;) Go to your local mall and do a survey asking people if they feal downtown Cincy is a 'safe' place. I'd be willing to bet a lot of ice cream sundees that the majority of people will say "unsafe". It's people's perceptions that matter, not the underlying components that make up the total crime statistics. And the cold reality is that many, many, many people deam downtown to be unsafe. Until you change that perception, all the talk of the west end being a wonderfull place, and you woln't be killed if you aren't looking for crack, will fall on deaf ears.

BTW - I agree that when you peal away the layers of the onion that is crime in Cincy that drugs, and specific neighborhoods are at the root of the vast majority of crime. But we aren't talking about understanding crime on a micro level, we're talking about the macro level of "do you feal safe in downtown Cincy" and how that effects attendence at GABP.

Always Red
03-08-2007, 09:16 AM
^ I totally agree with you, lilAbner- perception becomes reality for some folks.

I like the turn that this thread has taken, even though it's somewhat off topic. I'm a baseball nut, as most of us here are, and I also agree that Cincinnati is not a baseball town any longer. Not sure how you would define that anyway, but by most definitions I can think of, I don't think it is. Not enough folks go to the games, and not enough folks know enough about the game. As was pointed out above, the Reds were in the thick of the race last year, Castellini was giving tickets away, and folks still would simply not come.

But to be fair (speaking of knowledge of the game), most people do get much of their info on many topics from the talking heads in the media, which of course, keep us woefully uninformed about the truth of things.

You just have to dig a little deeper, do a little of your own research, to find out the truth on most issues.

If all one uses to garner information is the TV and radio, one would wind up with a very superficial knowledge base about a lot of things. Including baseball.

ok, off my soapbox now!!;)

Yachtzee
03-08-2007, 09:27 AM
I think the nature of the Cincinnati fan base changed after the 1994 strike. The Reds lost some long-time fans with that strike. I know some who have forgiven Mike Brown for all those years of losing with the Bengals, but still won't forgive the players and the owners for the '94 strike. I think that strike hit a lot of small market teams much harder than it did the big market teams. They have larger populations from which to replace the lost fans who gave up on baseball after the strike. Over a decade has past since the strike, so the younger folks probably don't remember much about it. However, there's also no memory of the BRM and the '90 World Champions. So I think they need to reach out to those younger fans. I don't think relying on the memory of the BRM and the '90 team is going to do it for them.

I have also noticed the fickle nature of Cincinnatians when it comes to sports. They'll come out to see a winner, if you can prove you're actually a winner. But if you're not a winner, people would rather stay home and just complain about the team all the time. There definitely seems to be a large degree of pessimism among the people on the southern side of the state.

big boy
03-08-2007, 09:33 AM
There is no excuse, no excuse whatsoever, for a new MLB stadium to sit around half empty when the home team is in a pennant chase and also when ownership slashes ticket prices in half. That was absolutely absurd what happened last season, and unfortunately it's nothing new here in Cincinnati.

I am pretty sure I read here that the attendance problems are due to the voice of the Reds "telling it like it is".

Yachtzee
03-08-2007, 09:41 AM
I am pretty sure I read here that the attendance problems are due to the voice of the Reds "telling it like it is".

It's not the only reason, or even the biggest reason, but it sure doesn't help matters.

M2
03-08-2007, 09:43 AM
Well if we can avoid being anything like the city of Boston than it's fine by me.

Yeah, it's hell on earth here. High crime, low standard of living, no jobs, complete lack of entertainment options and social institutions.

From reading the posts here and others over the years, it sounds like part of the problem is that suburban Cincinnati fans are lukewarm about the city itself. Try to bust on Boston all you want, but folks around here do all they can to get into the city. It's a nice place to live too. I can walk from where I live (western outskirts of the city) for miles down to the waterfront with my wife and kids and never have a thought about being in a dangerous situation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like Cincinnati could use a healthy dose of that.


And I remember the days of dark, dank Fenway in the late 80's and early 90's. You'd know better than me though about that. Were they just in a little "baseball town" funk?

Strange "dark" days. The Sox won three divisions from 1986-1990. They had that mini swoon from 1992-94, but they drew 2.4 million in '92 and '93, more than they did 1986 when they won the division (hard to compare 1994 because of the strike). In other words, even when the team wasn't so hot, they were banging out the park.

Unlike you, I used to go Fenway back then. It was still a tough ticket even when the team was out of contention. Even during that swoon, in a small ballpark they were outdrawing the Reds during one of the strongest attendance periods in Reds history.


I suggest there are no "baseball towns". Baseball is just another entertainment option and management better not take anyone for granted.

I agree with the second part, but people where I live are baseball crazy and have been since 1967. The John Harrington regime did take fans for granted, no one was disuaded. I was goofing on you a bit in my last response, but living where I do you'd have little town that there is such a thing as a baseball town.


Alot of people on this site blame the management for everything and mostly rightfully so, then you wonder why fans have turned off of the game. It's not really that crazy to me. The Reds haven't consistently won or cared about their fans in years and I don't blame people for not coming back. Maybe this not being a baseball town is a reasonable decision.

Perhaps it is. In the wake of Marge's racism and Lindner/Allen's incompetence, fans certainly had plenty of reason to turn away.

westofyou
03-08-2007, 09:48 AM
The "no baseball town" argument is intriguing, especially after checking out attendance figures on baseballreference. That argument actually has a lot of credibility.
There is a long history of non caring fans and bluster to the contrary.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36856

hebroncougar
03-08-2007, 09:51 AM
Yeah, it's hell on earth here. High crime, low standard of living, no jobs, complete lack of entertainment options and social institutions.



Strange "dark" days. The Sox won three divisions from 1986-1990. They had that mini swoon from 1992-94, but they drew 2.4 million in '92 and '93, more than they did 1986 when they won the division (hard to compare 1994 because of the strike). In other words, even when the team wasn't so hot, they were banging out the park.

Unlike you, I used to go Fenway back then. It was still a tough ticket even when the team was out of contention. Even during that swoon, in a small ballpark they were outdrawing the Reds during one of the strongest attendance periods in Reds history.



I agree with the second part, but people where I live are baseball crazy and have been since 1967. The John Harrington regime did take fans for granted, no one was disuaded. I was goofing on you a bit in my last response, but living where I do you'd have little town that there is such a thing as a baseball town.



Perhaps it is. In the wake of Marge's racism and Lindner/Allen's incompetence, fans certainly had plenty of reason to turn away.

Comparing Reds attendance figures to Boston, NY, or Chicago is way beyond apples to oranges. People will go there for the experience of being in Yankee Stadium, Fenway, or Wrigley IMO.

westofyou
03-08-2007, 09:58 AM
But we aren't talking about understanding crime on a micro level, we're talking about the macro level of "do you feal safe in downtown Cincy" and how that effects attendence at GABP.

I feel safe down there, but then again I've lived in real live working cities most of my life.

Johnny Footstool
03-08-2007, 10:02 AM
This is a baseball history town, but not a baseball town.

Quoted again for truth's sake.

Someone should put this on a "Welcome to Cincinnati" sign.

Yachtzee
03-08-2007, 10:07 AM
Quoted again for truth's sake.

Someone should put this on a "Welcome to Cincinnati" sign.

"Home of the First Professional Baseball Team and Opening Day, and we'll never let you forget it."

M2
03-08-2007, 10:07 AM
Comparing Reds attendance figures to Boston, NY, or Chicago is way beyond apples to oranges. People will go there for the experience of being in Yankee Stadium, Fenway, or Wrigley IMO.

To a degree. I can't speak for Chicago, but Boston and New York fans live and breathe baseball (Boston moreso). It's not just something they pay attention to when the game's on. People talk about the game all day long. It's one of the reasons I like Redszone. Previously I'd been held hostage talking about baseball with fans of other teams.

Chip R
03-08-2007, 10:40 AM
I do think that players and their families are somewhat over-sensitive to booing. They get booed a few times and the world is coming to an end and the fans are ingrates and bad people. I do agree there are some jackasses out there who get liquored up and take the first opportunity to abuse players - even their own. But those fans are not mutually exclusive to one city. Every city has them. Even high school games will have people who will boo players. I do disagree with Daddy Kearns that fans here look for players to strike out so they can boo. I think some fans take the first excuse they can get to boo someone and it does have a ripple effect. But I don't think they sit there and hope someone does bad just so they can boo.

I don't remember reading in that article how Daddy Kearns enjoyed it when the fans cheered Austin when he was hitting game winning HRs or making outstanding defensive plays. Perhaps he did say that and it was not included in the article. But it seems to me that athletes expect to be cheered and get upset when they get booed. If they don't want us to boo, should we not cheer them either?

Sooner or later the bloom is going to be off the rose in D.C. I wish Austin the best of luck but it's unrealistic to think that the fans there are going to be happy, shiny people when the Nats are on pace to lose 100 games and the media there starts ripping them. Especially when they move into their new ballpark.

Always Red
03-08-2007, 10:48 AM
I lived in Chicago from 1984-1989, and they were pretty superficial fans for the most part. Cubs fans were they to be seen; a lot of them did not know very much about baseball, other than who the "Cubbies" were playing that day.:drink:

The Sox fans were more hard-core, much more knowledgable about baseball in general. I went to a lot of games at Wrigley and Old Comiskey, both of which were (are) fantastic places to watch baseball. I started rooting for the Sox when I lived in Chicago- I liked their fans better, and I couldn't force myself to care about the Cubs. :barf:

Redsland
03-08-2007, 10:53 AM
Booing a Ken Griffey injury or an Austin Kearns strikeout is like urging people to be patient with Dan O'Brien. The few people who do it are so out there that all the rest of us notice them. But just because we all saw them doesn't mean they speak for anyone but themselves.

RedFanAlways1966
03-08-2007, 11:02 AM
Booing a Ken Griffey injury or an Austin Kearns strikeout is like urging people to be patient with Dan O'Brien. The few people who do it are so out there that all the rest of us notice them. But just because we all saw them doesn't mean they speak for anyone but themselves.

Amen.

Back to the original post... do you wonder if AK's dad was one of these guys who was not well-liked by other little league parents and/or coaches? I do not know the man or anything about him, so I ask just from wondering.

Do you think he might have threatened the All-Star team manager from AK's little league about pulling superstar (which he obviously was in LL) Austin if his kid did not get to play the position of dad's choosing and bat where dad wanted him to bat?

I remember dad's like this from my little league days. Their kid was really a good ballplayer. Dad let everyone know that his kid was a superstar and his kid should be where dad wanted the kid to be in the lineup and on the field... or else the kid was no longer helping the team. You always felt bad for the kid b/c normally the kid just wanted to play the game.

If not, for those who may know Mr. Kearns, I'd go with others and say that Mr. K is just saying things to defend his loved one. Sometimes best not to speak, but we are all guilty of saying too much at times.

Highlifeman21
03-08-2007, 11:14 AM
To a degree. I can't speak for Chicago, but Boston and New York fans live and breathe baseball (Boston moreso). It's not just something they pay attention to when the game's on. People talk about the game all day long. It's one of the reasons I like Redszone. Previously I'd been held hostage talking about baseball with fans of other teams.

I'd even go out on a limb to say Philadelphia is a baseball town. While they might not be the most baseball saavy fans, they are definitely fanatical, to say the least. They might not understand the value of their players, but they have a passion for their team. I guess the value of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, in the hearts of Phillies Phans.

I'm not sure if I would exactly classify Phillies Phans as living and breathing baseball, but there's definitely an atmosphere similar, but to a slightly lesser extent, to a Yankees game or a Red Sox game. Having attended games in all 3 stadiums, they definitely had a certain buzz that games in Cincinnati clearly lack.

Is Austin Kearns in a better baseball town now? Maybe. As already mentioned, Washington DC is still in the honeymoon/novelty period of having baseball back in that town. Once that wears off, and it will, then you'll probably see unparalleled booing in the Nation's Capital when the Nationals continue to put a losing team on the field.

As for Cincinnati, we also went thru a similar novelty/honeymoon period when Great American Ballpark was built. We came away from the 1999 season with a competitive team, and then looked forward to the acquisition of Griffey as well as the new stadium. It's 2007 now. We haven't sniffed a winner since 1999, the novelty of the new stadium has worn off, and our FO continues to make suspect moves that actually look to set the franchise back. Hopefully this new regime can put a solid product on the field, which in turn will put butts in seats.

dsmith421
03-08-2007, 11:30 AM
I'll take NKY thank you.

I prefer Northern Kentucky, too, but I don't get why so many suburbanites in Cincinnati pee their pants every time they enter the city. God, it's not like there are drive-bys at 5th and Vine, but you'd think the entire downtown area was Over-the-Rhine the way some of these alarmists talk.

Of course, maybe I have thick skin having lived in actual cities.

M2
03-08-2007, 11:34 AM
Phillies fans are just Eggles fans looking for something to hate in their spare time.

pedro
03-08-2007, 11:47 AM
Have you noticed the murder rates in the City latley? How in the world is avoiding an area where crime is spirling out of controll, where the mayor makes fighting crime his top priority, "irrational"?

Let's see, go to Kings Island where (1) I'll have lots more fun (2) be entertained all day long (3) while there's a chance I could die in a freak accident I'm likely not to get shot, stabbed, mugged or raped.........or go to a Reds game? Hummmmm.



No offense intended but you sound an awful lot like all the folks in Atlanta who lived in the lily white burbs and wanted to know why I lived down town where I'd get killed. That isn't to say that the crime rates in an urban area aren't greater than than in the burbs but generally I think people exaggerate the potential dangers, especially when the activity they may be partaking in is going to a baseball game.

M2
03-08-2007, 11:51 AM
I prefer Northern Kentucky, too, but I don't get why so many suburbanites in Cincinnati pee their pants every time they enter the city. God, it's not like there are drive-bys at 5th and Vine, but you'd think the entire downtown area was Over-the-Rhine the way some of these alarmists talk.

Of course, maybe I have thick skin having lived in actual cities.

It very well could be perception. I've got relatives who live in suburban Philadelphia who maintain you will be instantly killed if you dare to go inside the city. Philly's actually gotten a bit cosmopolitan over the past decade, but there's a huge swath of folks in the burbs there who, in their own minds, have turned the city into a boogeyman. I actually think the city benefits from them staying away.

Yet they did place the new Philly baseball stadium where they did (on the city's southern outskirts) mostly to appease suburbanites who wished to avoid the city. Now, that's where they've been putting sports facilities for 40 years in that city, but it's always been done that way because of the white flight mentality that still pervades there.

I can't speak for Cincinnati, but it does seem strange to me that anyone would go to a Reds game and worry about violence. I always thought the larger issue in downtown Cincinnati was that it's kind of sleepy after the sun goes down.

westofyou
03-08-2007, 11:52 AM
I always thought the larger issue in downtown Cincinnati was that it's kind of sleepy after the sun goes down.

Cincinnati after 6 PM makes Rip Van Winkle look like he had eaten a handful of black beauties.

Rocket_Fuel
03-08-2007, 07:57 PM
Dan Kearns that is (Austin's father)

Washington Post


"I'm telling you, those Nationals fans made a difference for him," Dan Kearns said. "They talk about Cincinnati being a great baseball town, but they look for you to strike out so they can boo. Here they were, Washington, in last place, and they cheered everything."

Yeah, Cincinnati fans made him out-of-shape and unproductive. Props to Washington for being proud of a bad team though.

TeamBoone
03-08-2007, 09:33 PM
Why do so many posters feel the need to bash the city of Cincinnati? Is it NY, LA, Chicago... absolutely not, but it has plenty to offer.

It's a myth that there's nothing to do when the sun goes down and, frankly, I get tired of hearing that. Those things may not lie within a block of the GAB (unfortunately, they got rid of it all when they built PBS), but there's plenty to do no matter what your particular taste might be and most all are open past sundown.

I live in the burbs and go downtown all the time. Crime in Cincinnati is not restricted to Over-the-Rhine as some think, though that seems to be where the bulk of it occurs... nor is it nonexistent in downtown Cincinnati, as many others think, though it occurs more often in other parts of the city.

Do you have to be aware of what's going on around you? Yes, you do, but that's true of anywhere you might be at any given time.

As long as you don't park 10 blocks from the GAB, especially in the day time, there's safety in numbers and the bulk of those attending a game pretty much leave when it's over. If you're amidst that crowd streaming out of the ballpark, there's not much to worry about but keep your head about you.

PS - when I read the title of this thread, I expected to read some Kearns' outburst. I was surprised to see what I consider a mere comment... I certainly wouldn't call it a rip.

Ltlabner
03-08-2007, 11:17 PM
No offense intended but you sound an awful lot like all the folks in Atlanta who lived in the lily white burbs and wanted to know why I lived down town where I'd get killed. That isn't to say that the crime rates in an urban area aren't greater than than in the burbs but generally I think people exaggerate the potential dangers, especially when the activity they may be partaking in is going to a baseball game.

Odd that we are having this discussion today. I have a coworker with me who is based in Providence, RI. Durring the course of the days chatter he makes the comment, "so, I hear Cincinnati has a bunch of murders". I couldn't believe it in light of what we are talking about here.

It's all perception. I don't think anybody thinks they are going to keil over and die once they cross the city limits. However, when your city has a record year for murders, and is on pace for another record year it's going to factor into your decision making when it comes to spending entertainment dollars (especially when the Reds have stunk for so long).

Some folks choose to live downtown, others in the suburbs, and still others in rural setings. One is not more enlightened than the other.

paintmered
03-08-2007, 11:25 PM
I always thought the larger issue in downtown Cincinnati was that it's kind of sleepy after the sun goes down.

That's an understatement. But the city government is too busy being jealous of Newport/Covington and fighting with Hamilton County to do anything about it.

dsmith421
03-09-2007, 12:28 AM
Some folks choose to live downtown, others in the suburbs, and still others in rural setings. One is not more enlightened than the other.

And yet, every time this subject comes up, you just can't help but crap all over the City of Cincinnati. Doctor, heal thyself.

Ltlabner
03-09-2007, 07:52 AM
And yet, every time this subject comes up, you just can't help but crap all over the City of Cincinnati. Doctor, heal thyself.

Funny, I'd call it being realistic. Cincinnati has a crime problem and it effects people perceptions of the city as a whole. Nowhere in that statement have I said Cincy sucks, is no good, or a horrible place. It's cold hard reality that some folks just don't want to face, or want to dance around (ie. it's only in this 3.47 square block area over there!).

In fact, as an metro area, I think Cincinnati has a lot to offer people. For a city of this size to have 2 major league sports teams, the museums, the symphony, the zoo, and on and on should be a huge feather in the cap of Cincy as a whole, and the general "downtown" area. It's a shame that we don't have a local government structure that can capitalize on all that the town offers.

But as we love to do about our Reds, I can't pretend a problem isn't a problem.

michst
03-09-2007, 08:21 AM
Why do so many posters feel the need to bash the city of Cincinnati? Is it NY, LA, Chicago... absolutely not, but it has plenty to offer.

It's a myth that there's nothing to do when the sun goes down and, frankly, I get tired of hearing that. Those things may not lie within a block of the GAB (unfortunately, they got rid of it all when they built PBS), but there's plenty to do no matter what your particular taste might be and most all are open past sundown.

I live in the burbs and go downtown all the time. Crime in Cincinnati is not restricted to Over-the-Rhine as some think, though that seems to be where the bulk of it occurs... nor is it nonexistent in downtown Cincinnati, as many others think, though it occurs more often in other parts of the city.

Do you have to be aware of what's going on around you? Yes, you do, but that's true of anywhere you might be at any given time.

As long as you don't park 10 blocks from the GAB, especially in the day time, there's safety in numbers and the bulk of those attending a game pretty much leave when it's over. If you're amidst that crowd streaming out of the ballpark, there's not much to worry about but keep your head about you.

PS - when I read the title of this thread, I expected to read some Kearns' outburst. I was surprised to see what I consider a mere comment... I certainly wouldn't call it a rip.


Great post! Cincinnatians don't realize what a great city we really have. The city does not close down after 6:00, there are plenty of good restaurants downtown, fountain square, the aaronof and taft theatres, museums and 2 ball parks. Yes its not as convenient as driving up to a big parking lot and the newest chain restaurant like the cheesecake factory in Kenwood, but it is definitely worth it to experience what downtown has to offer.

Crime may be higher in downtown but still not what people make it out to be. People complain about parking, but have you ever had to park in a larger city like chicago and had to pay their rates?

I get tired of hearing people saying how Newport did it right. Well its much easier to build a development outside of the flood plain and what did they really get? A second rate acquarium, a movie theatre, a beer garden and a bunch of chain restaurants. Newport may be the current IT place but that will change and 5 years from now - it will be some place else. It happens all the time - Covington Landing, Main Street, Mainstrausse all were THE hot spots that now aren't so much.

Highlifeman21
03-09-2007, 09:16 AM
Great post! Cincinnatians don't realize what a great city we really have. The city does not close down after 6:00, there are plenty of good restaurants downtown, fountain square, the aaronof and taft theatres, museums and 2 ball parks. Yes its not as convenient as driving up to a big parking lot and the newest chain restaurant like the cheesecake factory in Kenwood, but it is definitely worth it to experience what downtown has to offer.

Crime may be higher in downtown but still not what people make it out to be. People complain about parking, but have you ever had to park in a larger city like chicago and had to pay their rates?

I get tired of hearing people saying how Newport did it right. Well its much easier to build a development outside of the flood plain and what did they really get? A second rate acquarium, a movie theatre, a beer garden and a bunch of chain restaurants. Newport may be the current IT place but that will change and 5 years from now - it will be some place else. It happens all the time - Covington Landing, Main Street, Mainstrausse all were THE hot spots that now aren't so much.

Aside from Palomino, Morton's, the Jeff Ruby joint across from Aronoff and Nicholson's, what restaurants?

There might be some with good food, but I don't think they'd fit into the mold the Maisonette set, and others tried to copy. In Cincinnati, there aren't many options for fine dining.

---

I've paid to park in Chicago, New York and Philly, and while the prices might be cost prohibitive to some, at least there is parking available. With Cincinnati, cost isn't the issue, but rather number of spaces.

michst
03-09-2007, 11:18 AM
Some of the better dining ones off the top of my head:
the Palace, Nicolas,Campanellos, John Roberts, Trattoria Roma (might be a chain), Bistro JeanRo

Good food in a more bar setting:
Kaldis, McFaddens, Rock Bottom (I know a chain), Arnolds, Carols, The new bar that is going in at Redfish's old site

Redsland
03-09-2007, 11:32 AM
Aside from Palomino, Morton's, the Jeff Ruby joint across from Aronoff and Nicholson's, what restaurants?
In downtown?

Pigall's, The Palace, The Phoenix, Nicola's, Orchid's, JeanRo Bistro, Vinyl, The Crickett, McCormick & Schmick is okay, Arnold's has character, Shanghai Mama's is fun, Scotti's has great Italian (as does Trattoria Roma), The Boathouse is a couple of blocks to the east, Washington Platform is a blast.

Directly across the river is The Waterfront, Mike Fink, The Charthouse, Tropicana, Mitchell's Fish Market (which I hate, but lots of people like), and the rest of the Levee. A few blocks farther, and you hit places like Greenup Street, York Steet, Main Strasse, and your options continue to grow.

membengal
03-09-2007, 11:53 AM
I grew up in Cincy, I now live in Memphis. I lived for a time in Nashville and Dayton.

The slagging on downtown Cincy continues to amaze. Memphis, for instance, is a truly vibrant and fascinating place. I live in the city limits. It's also as violent a city as I have ever been in. And yet, I feel safe. It's about knowing where you are etc. etc. etc. Cincy? Child's play with violence etc. compared to Memphis. Not in the same universe. When I visit back to Cincy, the only thing that makes me "feel unsafe" is how dead things are in terms of things to do. I wish there was a more vibrant downtown. Feels safer in numbers and all that. But the perception that entrance to downtown Cincy is a ticket for rape, murder etc. is simply laughable.

That that perception endures is yet another failure to lay at the feet of City and County government, a continuation of failures in place going back decades. But actual safety? Downtown Cincy is a walk in the park compared to other cities.

Highlifeman21
03-09-2007, 12:24 PM
In downtown?

Pigall's, The Palace, The Phoenix, Nicola's, Orchid's, JeanRo Bistro, Vinyl, The Crickett, McCormick & Schmick is okay, Arnold's has character, Shanghai Mama's is fun, Scotti's has great Italian (as does Trattoria Roma), The Boathouse is a couple of blocks to the east, Washington Platform is a blast.

Directly across the river is The Waterfront, Mike Fink, The Charthouse, Tropicana, Mitchell's Fish Market (which I hate, but lots of people like), and the rest of the Levee. A few blocks farther, and you hit places like Greenup Street, York Steet, Main Strasse, and your options continue to grow.

Those are all on the wrong side of the river, and can't be considered "Cincinnati".

I haven't lived in Cincy since Spring of 2005, so it's been awhile since I've dined Downtown, but have seen that the Maisonette has closed, and so had Red Fish.

If you compare Cincinnati to other Major League cities, there seems to be a staggering lack of things to do, places to eat around Great American Ballpark as opposed to the other cities.

Sure, this is a broad, sweeping generalization, but I'm sure Kearns' dad was just stating that Cincinnati isn't a major city, whereas Washington DC is.

I'm sure light rail, and other forms of public transportation also factor into the argument when you look at convenience to get to the venue. I think once Cincinnati addresses some of its public transit issues, and attempts to be proactive about it's negative image and population slide, then we might be a Baseball Town again.

pedro
03-09-2007, 12:28 PM
OTOH, there is exactly NOTHING within walking distance of Turner Field in Atlanta.

Redsland
03-09-2007, 01:09 PM
Those are all on the wrong side of the river, and can't be considered "Cincinnati".
Hence the reason I set them apart from the other 15 restaurants I'd just named, and further clarified that they were across the river.

The only reason I named them at all is because diners consider them to be part of Cincinnati's culinary experience. (Ask George Brett what city The Waterfront is in, and he'll tell you "Cincinnati.")

Plus, they're no farther away from the stadium (if that was your point) than Nicola's, which is unequivically downtown. But, again, I set these restaurants apart precisely because they didn't meet a strict definition of "downtown." I'm not sure why that wasn't apparent. But if you're saying that "within x distance of the stadium, there's nowhere to eat," then these places are part of the discussion.

Highlifeman21
03-09-2007, 01:14 PM
Hence the reason I set them apart from the other 15 restaurants I'd just named, and further clarified that they were across the river.

The only reason I named them at all is because diners consider them to be part of Cincinnati's culinary experience. (Ask George Brett what city The Waterfront is in, and he'll tell you "Cincinnati.")

Plus, they're no farther away from the stadium (if that was your point) than Nicola's, which is unequivically downtown. But, again, I set these restaurants apart precisely because they didn't meet a strict definition of "downtown." I'm not sure why that wasn't apparent. But if you're saying that "within x distance of the stadium, there's nowhere to eat," then these places are part of the discussion.

And I agree.

If you're saying within X distance of the stadium, then across the river should be included, but my stance was that if I'm going downtown specifically to grab a bite, non Reds related, my options are seemingly limited.

I'm hoping that the completion of The Banks project will make this issue moot, and some riverfront development can happen on this side of the river. I fully believe that would have a significant economic impact, as well as a significant image impact. I would hope both sports teams could reap the benefits.

Redsland
03-09-2007, 01:28 PM
If you're saying within X distance of the stadium, then across the river should be included, but my stance was that if I'm going downtown specifically to grab a bite, non Reds related, my options are seemingly limited.
They may seem to be limited, but the 15 restaurants I named in downtown say otherwise. Add two minutes to your drive, and you're in Mt. Adams, where there are another half-dozen or so good choices. Or walk out of the stadium and take the ferry across the river (or walk across the Purple People Bridge), and you're on the Levee, where there are another half-dozen or so good choices.

And I'm only talking about good places, here. If you're content to eat at Rock Bottom Brewery or Hoffbrau House or Ingredients or Gameday or Hooters, then your choices really explode.

M2
03-09-2007, 01:41 PM
To be fair, if there's one thing we do well in America, it's making tasty food. Even our junk food, perhaps especially our junk food, is delicious. There's good eating everywhere.

To this outside observer, what Cincinnati seems to lack is organization. The social mix doesn't come together well. There's a pocket here and a pocket there, but they don't spill into each other. It's the difference between being out to dinner and out for the night.

Yachtzee
03-09-2007, 01:43 PM
And I'm only talking about good places, here. If you're content to eat at Rock Bottom Brewery or Hoffbrau House or Ingredients or Gameday or Hooters, then your choices really explode.

I take exception to your characterization of Hofbrauhaus as not a good place to eat. It's not fine dining, but it's not to the level of Rock Bottom, Gameday or Hooters either. They have some incredibly delicious German food, not to mention the excellent beer.

michst
03-09-2007, 02:52 PM
Yahtzee thats funny you say that, I actually like Rock bottom better than Hofbrauhaus. (Not like either can be compared to Rubys or John Roberts). I guess i can't understand the big deal about Hofbrauhaus. Its just a big gravel area outside with picnic tables. The inside is funny with the dancing on tables but it wears thin. I actually prefer the old flannigans to it by far. I miss that old big bar before a reds game

redsrule2500
03-09-2007, 03:59 PM
I can get over Kearns at the plate, but it's the combo of his amazing rocket launcher in right that I miss the most!

Team Clark
03-09-2007, 04:20 PM
Has anyone ever been to Comiskey??? Ummm you probably do not want to go any more than 50 YARDS away from the stadium after a game. The Subway station is about 50 yards away and that is pretty scary all in itself. Cincinnati may not be as cozy and comfy as when I was a kid but what places are?

Ltlabner
03-09-2007, 04:26 PM
To be fair, if there's one thing we do well in America, it's making tasty food. Even our junk food, perhaps especially our junk food, is delicious. There's good eating everywhere.

To this outside observer, what Cincinnati seems to lack is organization. The social mix doesn't come together well. There's a pocket here and a pocket there, but they don't spill into each other. It's the difference between being out to dinner and out for the night.

Great point. Someone (Paint?) pointed out that the concept of the banks project, that is having a centeralized area of entertainment, living, stadiums, etc, ought to help Cincy as a whole, and the Reds. Also, since it's seperated from the "downtown" proper, the local government can, if they figure out how, use that as a selling point to start chipping away at the "Cincy is dangerous" vibe people have. While I originally rolled my eyes at the Banks idea, I think it could work, and work very well if they pull it off.

On a more important tact, it should help to make a trip to the ballpark an 'event' that includes shopping, dining, etc. Mutually benefical for all parties.

Redsland
03-09-2007, 04:35 PM
I take exception to your characterization of Hofbrauhaus as not a good place to eat. It's not fine dining, but it's not to the level of Rock Bottom, Gameday or Hooters either. They have some incredibly delicious German food, not to mention the excellent beer.
No offense intended. Hofbrauhaus is a fun place to have a drink, but my post was about fine dining, because Highlifeman21 said:

Aside from Palomino, Morton's, the Jeff Ruby joint across from Aronoff and Nicholson's, what restaurants?

There might be some with good food, but I don't think they'd fit into the mold the Maisonette set, and others tried to copy. In Cincinnati, there aren't many options for fine dining.
I admit that some places I listed like Arnold's and Washington Platform don't really qualify, but I included them along with brief rationales, since I think they're good places to drop by when you're in the neighborhood or to take out-of-towners, despite the fact that they don't serve foie gras.

:beerme:

vaticanplum
03-09-2007, 06:50 PM
Well, for what it's worth, I work right by the river, and today when I left work at 6:15 the place was crawling with people. This is the first warm day since I started working there, and people's enjoyment of it didn't stop with the end of the work day. There were joggers, bikers, people out with their kids, people out with their dogs...on the waterfront, in Sawyer Point, on the concourse between GABP and the US Bank Arena, eating at tables the Freedom Center put out, walking on the sidewalks. It's not exactly New York, and there certainly aren't as many things to do downtown as there should be, but this should help put to rest the notion that Cincinnati is a complete ghost town outside of the work crowd. Furthermore, not one of these people appeared to be in the process of getting shot.

Wheelhouse
03-09-2007, 07:33 PM
Kearns is fairly thin-skinned. Nothing new. Remember when he was sent down and went AWOL?

Yachtzee
03-09-2007, 08:42 PM
Yahtzee thats funny you say that, I actually like Rock bottom better than Hofbrauhaus. (Not like either can be compared to Rubys or John Roberts). I guess i can't understand the big deal about Hofbrauhaus. Its just a big gravel area outside with picnic tables. The inside is funny with the dancing on tables but it wears thin. I actually prefer the old flannigans to it by far. I miss that old big bar before a reds game

Rock Bottom is okay. The food just seems like any number of chain restaurants to me. As far as the Hofbrauhaus goes, I actually like going there at less crowded times. Being part German and having lived overseas for a few years, I love to go the Hofbrauhaus on a sunny afternoon before the game, relax in the beer garden over a beer and a plate of sausages or maybe a schnitzel, and debate my friends as we try to solve the world's problems. Sehr gemuetlich. I think it would be a great place for a Redszone get-together. Plenty of room to sit outside and drink under the trees, but with enough shade so that you don't get dehydrated.

I find the food to be excellent for German food in America. Too many German restaurants seem to think they can get by on throwing a piece of shoe leather into a bag of Shake 'n' Bake and dropping it into a deep fryer and calling it schnitzel. The Hofbrauhaus is about as good as it gets without going to Germany or Austria (unless you know how to make schnitzel at home).

Raisor
03-09-2007, 09:06 PM
OTOH, there is exactly NOTHING within walking distance of Turner Field in Atlanta.

The Ted is in a horrible spot. No mass-trans (there is a shuttle bus from Underground, but that means you actually have to go TO Underground, which isn't fun anyway), no resturants (except the worlds worst sports bar..never ever go and an old old KFC), no nuthin.

INSIDE the Ted is another story. Great park, with great stuff to go with it.

TeamBoone
03-09-2007, 09:22 PM
Kearns is fairly thin-skinned. Nothing new. Remember when he was sent down and went AWOL?

He didn't go AWOL. He had seven days to report to Louisville... his father had heart surgery and went to Lexington to spend time with him before he reported.

Big Klu
03-09-2007, 10:11 PM
'Cuz in Cincy we loves us some booing. :kearns: Booooo!!!


You want harsh? Go to New York.

Hey Dan, it could be worse--your son could be Danny Graves! Oh, did I say that?

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DANNY GRAVES! :evil:

pedro
03-09-2007, 10:12 PM
The Ted is in a horrible spot. No mass-trans (there is a shuttle bus from Underground, but that means you actually have to go TO Underground, which isn't fun anyway), no resturants (except the worlds worst sports bar..never ever go and an old old KFC), no nuthin.

INSIDE the Ted is another story. Great park, with great stuff to go with it.

It was always easy for me b/c I lived 5 minutes a way. I agree it's a great park on the inside. Plus boiled p-nuts. Gotta love them boiled p-nuts.

Ltlabner
03-09-2007, 10:33 PM
The Hofbrauhaus is about as good as it gets without going to Germany or Austria (unless you know how to make schnitzel at home).


Totally off topic: If you like schnitzel's try the Iron Skillet in Newtown. Several types. All excellent. Their spatzels are to die for, and they make a mean pork goulash too.

westofyou
03-09-2007, 10:35 PM
Totally off topic: If you like schnitzel's try the Iron Skillet in Newtown. Several types. All excellent.

The Skillet... haven't thought about that place in years.

Ltlabner
03-09-2007, 10:37 PM
The Skillet... haven't thought about that place in years.

We live 10 minutes away and it's Mrs Ltlabner and my favorite resturant. Was just there a few weeks ago.

They finally took down that little 1/2 wall that sticks out from the side of the building into the parking lot. I guess after 1500 people backed into it they decided it might be a good idea to redesign things a bit.

TeamBoone
03-10-2007, 12:14 AM
Totally off topic: If you like schnitzel's try the Iron Skillet in Newtown. Several types. All excellent. Their spatzels are to die for, and they make a mean pork goulash too.

Christy's is a really good German restaurant... even the schnitzel (I lived in Germany for a year). It's in the University District. It also has a great outdoor bar in the summer.

And a Rathskeller.

TeamCasey
03-10-2007, 09:58 AM
I haven't read this whole thing. My take on it is that the population of Cincinnati is heading outward, mainly north.

There really isn't much life downtown especially on the weekends. I've always been amazed how dead it is around the stadiums. How many times have you wanted to grab a meal before or after a game and decided to grab something en route.

John Allen has neither been creative or earned the fans respect.

Always Red
03-10-2007, 11:04 AM
With apologies for being totally off topic (I still have no problem with Austin Kearns, and give his dad the benefit of the doubt for being upset when 20,000 people boo his son- I'm a dad, too, and I might feel the same way if I'm in his shoes).....but there's a lot more to downtown than just the ballparks. Most of the blame for the failure to place entertainment around them must be laid at the feet of both city council and the county, whom in their usual power struggle have bungled the Banks project mightily. The Banks Project is a huge political hot potato, which keeps getting passed around in order that no get blamed, but the end result is total stagnation, at least at this point.

My guess is that the Banks will eventually wind up being a pretty nice area of shops, restaurants, parking and bars between the stadia. Might not be for another 10 years or so, though. And that's when the nightlife around the GABP and Paul Brown will light up.

Some have stated Cincinnati has very few restaurants to choose from (other than the chains). Not so; Cincinnati is a great place to dine! Sure it might not compare to Atlanta or Chicago, but hey, we're the 25th largest metropolitan area in the US, not 3rd or 4th!

Here's a great list of Cincinnati Magazine's top 25 dining establishments (2006) in Cincinnati (and not a chain among them!):

http://209.196.51.13/ME2/Audiences/dirmod.asp?sid=31EF488C3E4D43229C8F6D14EB61686A&type=gen&mod=Core%20Pages&gid=A35E06DB800E439A9EB1E6C6E8C02A07&AudID=530028F166A64B23810FDF9B432081F4

1. Jean-Robert at Pigall's :thumbup:
2. Boca
3. Orchids
4. Nicola's Ristorante
5. Sturkey's :thumbup:
6. Daveed's at 934
7. Jo An Japanese Restaurant
8. La Petite Pierre
9. Slims
10. Pho Paris
11. Brown Dog Café
12. Carlo & Johnny
13. Cumin
14. The Celestial Steakhouse :thumbup:
15. Honey
16. Quarter Bistro
17. Tousey House
18. The Palace
19. Jeff Ruby's Steakhouse :thumbup:
20. Primavista :thumbup:
21. Knotty Pine on the Bayou :thumbup:
22. Embers :thumbup:
23. Rondo's :thumbup:
24. Riverside Korean Restaurant
25. Germano's

My favorite? Primavista, great Northern Italian food, and the best view of downtown. But don't tell anybody...they'll tell you how bad the neighborhood is around the place, all the while not realizing that the price of real estate in the Incline District of Price Hill is rising by the day...(after all, perception is reality- right??):beerme:

Highlifeman21
03-10-2007, 05:53 PM
With apologies for being totally off topic (I still have no problem with Austin Kearns, and give his dad the benefit of the doubt for being upset when 20,000 people boo his son- I'm a dad, too, and I might feel the same way if I'm in his shoes).....but there's a lot more to downtown than just the ballparks. Most of the blame for the failure to place entertainment around them must be laid at the feet of both city council and the county, whom in their usual power struggle have bungled the Banks project mightily. The Banks Project is a huge political hot potato, which keeps getting passed around in order that no get blamed, but the end result is total stagnation, at least at this point.

My guess is that the Banks will eventually wind up being a pretty nice area of shops, restaurants, parking and bars between the stadia. Might not be for another 10 years or so, though. And that's when the nightlife around the GABP and Paul Brown will light up.

Some have stated Cincinnati has very few restaurants to choose from (other than the chains). Not so; Cincinnati is a great place to dine! Sure it might not compare to Atlanta or Chicago, but hey, we're the 25th largest metropolitan area in the US, not 3rd or 4th!

Here's a great list of Cincinnati Magazine's top 25 dining establishments (2006) in Cincinnati (and not a chain among them!):

http://209.196.51.13/ME2/Audiences/dirmod.asp?sid=31EF488C3E4D43229C8F6D14EB61686A&type=gen&mod=Core%20Pages&gid=A35E06DB800E439A9EB1E6C6E8C02A07&AudID=530028F166A64B23810FDF9B432081F4

1. Jean-Robert at Pigall's :thumbup:
2. Boca
3. Orchids
4. Nicola's Ristorante
5. Sturkey's :thumbup:
6. Daveed's at 934
7. Jo An Japanese Restaurant
8. La Petite Pierre
9. Slims
10. Pho Paris
11. Brown Dog Café
12. Carlo & Johnny
13. Cumin
14. The Celestial Steakhouse :thumbup:
15. Honey
16. Quarter Bistro
17. Tousey House
18. The Palace
19. Jeff Ruby's Steakhouse :thumbup:
20. Primavista :thumbup:
21. Knotty Pine on the Bayou :thumbup:
22. Embers :thumbup:
23. Rondo's :thumbup:
24. Riverside Korean Restaurant
25. Germano's

My favorite? Primavista, great Northern Italian food, and the best view of downtown. But don't tell anybody...they'll tell you how bad the neighborhood is around the place, all the while not realizing that the price of real estate in the Incline District of Price Hill is rising by the day...(after all, perception is reality- right??):beerme:

That top 25 is in Greater Cincinnati, not the Downtown Cincinnati proper...

Germano's - Montgomery
Embers - Kenwood
Knotty Pine on the Bayou - KY
Carlo & Johnny - Montgomery
La Petite Pierre - Madeira
Sturkey's - Wyomning

Just to name a few....

Always Red
03-10-2007, 10:55 PM
That top 25 is in Greater Cincinnati, not the Downtown Cincinnati proper...

Germano's - Montgomery
Embers - Kenwood
Knotty Pine on the Bayou - KY
Carlo & Johnny - Montgomery
La Petite Pierre - Madeira
Sturkey's - Wyomning

Just to name a few....

picky, picky....;)

Downtown Cincinnati is only a handful of square miles, as you know- very unusual for a large city. In fact, if you count official city population only, Cincinnati is only the 56th largest city in the US, but if you count metro area, it is the 20th largest metro are in the US.

I only live 20 minutes away from GAPB, but I do not live near city limits.

I would say that these restaurants are in the Cincinnati area, wouldn't you?

Yachtzee
03-10-2007, 11:43 PM
Christy's is a really good German restaurant... even the schnitzel (I lived in Germany for a year). It's in the University District. It also has a great outdoor bar in the summer.

And a Rathskeller.

I was in the neighborhood once and was intrigued by that place. Unfortunately, I was there on a Saturday morning while my wife got her hair done for a wedding, so we couldn't go in to eat.

Highlifeman21
03-11-2007, 10:38 AM
picky, picky....;)

Downtown Cincinnati is only a handful of square miles, as you know- very unusual for a large city. In fact, if you count official city population only, Cincinnati is only the 56th largest city in the US, but if you count metro area, it is the 20th largest metro are in the US.

I only live 20 minutes away from GAPB, but I do not live near city limits.

I would say that these restaurants are in the Cincinnati area, wouldn't you?

I went to Madeira, and my parents live by the Kenwood Towne Centre, so 4 of the 6 I named are no more than a 10 minute drive if I'm at their house.

My argument has been, and remains Downtown Cincinnati. If you're on this side of the river between the ballparks and even UC, and between 71 and 75, there's not much in terms of "fine dining". There's a couple gems, but Cincinnati doesn't have the restaurant power of other Major League cities.

Sure, the Greater Cincinnati Area has some great food, but if I'm specifically Downtown, then my options remain very limited.

REDREAD
03-13-2007, 01:50 PM
Allen responded that he saw bars and restaurants as the Reds' competition.

"What do I survive off of?," Allen asked. "Beverage and food sales (inside the stadium)."

No one ever accused John Allen of being a visionary :lol:
They should write "Small Market John" on his tombstone.
The fact that Cast continues to employ that boob doesn't give me a lot of confidence in the future getting better.
In fact, Cast should realize that one of the reasons the stadium was not full on those 1/2 price games with the Cards was because of John Allen raping the fans over the past 10 years.

If Allen and Lindner had some vision, we could've had a franchise on par with St Louis by now.

I don't think WayneK is going to turn this team around at all, considering he considers Cormier, Gonzales and Stanton as key additions and probably peed away more money this offseason than DanO did during the Milton Winter of Love.

Cincinnati is no longer a baseball town, because a lot of baseball fans are tired of the small market dog and pony show. They are tired of the lies, incompetence, and cheapness.

In fact, I'm willing to bet anyone here that Washington makes the playoffs before the Reds do. They are doing what many wanted the Reds to do.. Blow the team up, get rid of veteran chaff, bite the bullet and swallow a couple bad seasons to rebuild the farm infrastructure. Yes, they are going to suck this year, but at least they aren't giving lip service to rebuilding the farm as the Reds did. They are actually overpaying to get the top scouts, making a real presence in Latin America, and starting to accumulate legitimate young talent. Sounds like a much better plan than punting first round draft picks before your new park opens.

Meanwhile, Cincy scours the retirement homes for marginal veterans that can hopefully keep the team semi-respectable.

GoGoWhiteSox
03-13-2007, 10:02 PM
Has anyone ever been to Comiskey??? Ummm you probably do not want to go any more than 50 YARDS away from the stadium after a game. The Subway station is about 50 yards away and that is pretty scary all in itself. Cincinnati may not be as cozy and comfy as when I was a kid but what places are?
I have. It isn't sunshine, candy canes, and tea, but it's a lot better than it was a few years ago since they're building those expensive townhomes west of the park and blowing up those old housing projects. If you go more than a mile past the stadium in any direction, you're headed for trouble. Just have to use common sense, that's all.;)

pedro
03-13-2007, 10:08 PM
In fact, I'm willing to bet anyone here that Washington makes the playoffs before the Reds do.



I have faith in Stan Kasten but they're not going anywhere as long as Bowden is there.

Always Red
03-14-2007, 06:56 AM
I have faith in Stan Kasten but they're not going anywhere as long as Bowden is there.

I think Bowden's going to be the fall guy for the next year or two of futility (with no pitching). You're right, I think Kasten's smarter than to keep Jim around for too long. To Bowden's credit, I think he has built a nice lineup. But we know he can do that!

REDREAD
03-14-2007, 10:07 AM
I have faith in Stan Kasten but they're not going anywhere as long as Bowden is there.

I don't necessarily think Bowden automatically prevents them from going to the playoffs.

Bowden got us to the playoffs in 95. We were leading in the strike year of 96. We almost made it in 99 on a shoestring budget (and with John Allen).

I know you want him to fail, but it looks like the organization is doing things right. People point to the failed Soriano deal, but that's just Bowden's style, he will get nothing for a player before taking a bad deal. As I said earlier, it helps give him leverage in other deals.. For example, it may have helped him get more from the Diamondbacks for Hernandez. You may disagree, and that's fine.. But even if you count Soriano non-trade as a big mistake, keep in mind, he got Soriano for very little. He obviously fleeced us in the Kearns/Lopez trade.. Yes, there's whining about unethical stuff, but unless I missed it, the Reds still haven't filed their griveance yet, and Wayne just dances around the question every time he is asked.

Bowden did a good job unloading Vidro and Hernandez. He's basically doing what people hoped WayneK would do when he arrived here.. Blow it up and redo things right. They are getting the top scouts, making a big splash in Latin America, and are probably going to have some monster drafts in the near future. I really like their idea of loading up on scouts with the intent of scoring better talent in later rounds.

Looks like they are on their way to copying the Marlins model, and they might have an owner actually willing to spend that new stadium money to keep the team intact. They are going to be a good team in 3-4 years, while the Reds will probably still be collecting 40-something veterans like Conine.

pedro
03-14-2007, 11:52 AM
If Bowden "was doing things right" he'd have acquired some pitching. They have none.

They're going to lose 100 games. The have Ryan Zimmerman, Nick Johnson and squat. Kearns is OK and Lopez, well we'll see how he does at 2B. But if they end up having to put him back at SS, well they can have him for all I care.

And I don't hate Bowden, nor do I want him to fail. I'm just not going to throw praise his way when IMO he doesn't deserve it.

If you ask me, it sounds more like you hate Wayne Krivsky and want him to fail b/c you feel that Bowden got slighted by the Reds.

Yachtzee
03-14-2007, 12:07 PM
If Bowden "was doing things right" he'd have acquired some pitching. They have none.

They're going to lose 100 games. The have Ryan Zimmerman, Nick Johnson and squat. Kearns is OK and Lopez, well we'll see how he does at 2B. But if they end up having to put him back at SS, well they can have him for all I care.

And I don't hate Bowden, nor do I want him to fail. I'm just not going to throw praise his way when IMO he doesn't deserve it.

If you ask me, it sounds more like you hate Wayne Krivsky and want him to fail b/c you feel that Bowden got slighted by the Reds.

I think Bowden caught lightning in a bottle with a few retread pitchers like Schourek and Harnish and it's been his MO ever since. Load up on retreads and five-toolers.

westofyou
03-14-2007, 12:16 PM
I think Bowden caught lightning in a bottle with a few retread pitchers like Schourek and Harnish and it's been his MO ever since. Load up on retreads and five-toolers.

I think he's a product of the hitting era, he doesn't value defense or starting pitching much, he has an affinity for CF speedsters who can't hit and right now they are trying to make Nook Logan fit into a square hole, his teams are generally a mixture of bats and a lot of "If this goes right (though it's completely against the players makeup) then we'll do good." It's manifested in the myriad of players he tries to move to a different position (Boone, Kearns, Dmitri Young, Lopez) because of their bats.


Nationals Stay the Course With Logan

By Barry Svrluga
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, March 14, 2007; Page E01

VIERA, Fla., March 13 -- Nook Logan can look in the mirror and wish the reflection he saw was the way his life actually is. He yearns to live in Bizarro World, where there is an exact opposite of everything he knows, where left would be right and right would be left and he would walk to the plate with more confidence than doubt.

"I was out there thinking the other day, 'Why can't my left side be my right side?' " the Washington Nationals center fielder said. "I could make so much more of an impact if I were the other way around, if it was all reversed."

Logan, 27, is a switch hitter. Or, perhaps more accurately, he is trying to be a switch hitter. He grew up in Natchez, Miss., hitting right-handed. When he first was drafted out of junior college by Detroit in 2000, the Tigers knew they had a speedy player on their hands, and what better way to use the speed than to get him to hit from the left side as well. Thus began a struggle that is entering its eighth season. One scout familiar with Logan said recently, "It's never going to work."

But that doesn't mean that, for now, the Nationals won't keep trying. And they will do so by breaking Logan down and building him back up.

"People make a lot of mistakes with young hitters when they try to switch hit," hitting coach Mitchell Page said. "They try to force them to do things. My goal right now over the next two weeks, I just want him to put the ball in play. Ultimately, you want him to hit the top half of the ball so he can drive it. But he has to feel comfortable that he can hit any pitch before we get to that point."

Right now, Logan isn't at that point. Saturday, he came up in the 10th inning of a game against the New York Mets, and left-hander Eddie Camacho was on the mound. In the dugout, Manager Manny Acta said he liked the matchup for Logan, who singled in the winning run.

"It was the perfect situation for Nook," Acta said, "because we all know he is a little bit more advanced from the right side."

Numbers show he's much more advanced. Last season, after coming over in a trade from the Tigers -- who had essentially given up on him -- Logan hit .350 batting right-handed, .286 left-handed. But in reality, the disparity was even greater. Eight of Logan's 20 hits batting left-handed were bunts, his best weapon from that side because he can drag the ball and use his greatest gift -- speed.

Logan's career numbers are starkly different as well. In 152 right-handed at-bats, he has a .322 average, a .356 on-base percentage and a .461 slugging percentage. In 393 left-handed at-bats, those numbers fall to .249, .305 and an anemic .303, respectively.

Logan, though, doesn't want to abandon this way of life just yet.

"Believe it or not, sometimes I go up there and I feel better left-handed," Logan said. "I just don't get the same results. Right now, I'm looking for that comfort zone. I'm trying to slow the game down so that I'm more comfortable rather than trying to catch up to the speed of the game."

Page is trying to help him with that process. The hitting coach would like to see Logan have a more solid base from the left side, allowing the ball to travel to him rather than lunging at it, as he does so often. It is a process that, in an ideal world, would have happened in the minors and not the majors. But Acta has named Logan the starting center fielder because of his extraordinary defensive abilities, and the learning will continue under the spotlight of the big leagues.

"He's got to be able to put the ball in play before he tells me what he has to do with the first pitch, what he has to do with the second and all that," Page said. "No. Just hit the ball hard someplace, and then we'll get to everything else. He's got to be a guy who can put the ball in play and take his walks, and if there are too many lazy fly balls, then we'll deal with that.

"I want him to have the same amount of confidence left-handed as right-handed. But left-handed, he has no feel. He's still learning."

On Monday afternoon, Logan came to the plate against Mets right-hander Chan Ho Park. Hitting left-handed, he drove a ball to right field that sneaked into the corner, and Logan flew around the bases for a triple. In an intrasquad game late last month, he actually hit a home run from the left side, something he has never done in a major league game.

"I got to get comfortable, and I think I will," Logan said.

General Manager Jim Bowden said earlier this spring that the club would not ask Logan to give up switch hitting, at least in part because the drag bunt is such a weapon. Page, too, pledged to stay on his pupil. By the all-star break, he said, everyone will have a better idea of whether this experiment will work.

"I think he's got enough tools to be a switch hitter," Page said. "I just think he's going to have an explosive second half compared to the first half because of the way we're going to go about it. I think he's capable of doing the job

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/13/AR2007031301692.html

Jpup
03-14-2007, 01:14 PM
Austin Kearns was my favorite player until he was traded. I realized that it wasn't Austin Kearns, but that he was a Cincinnati Red. I will still pull for Austin and Felipe wherever they go, but they aren't Reds so I got over it. :)

REDREAD
03-14-2007, 02:54 PM
If Bowden "was doing things right" he'd have acquired some pitching. They have none.

They're going to lose 100 games. .

Washington isn't worried about this year. That's obvious. Rather than invest in expensive marginal pitching like a Lohse or Milton they are dumping their money into farm/infrastructure.. Just as many Reds fans have wanted our own team to do. Yep, they are going to stink next year. And they will likely be rewarded with a top 4 draft pick. That's the way the system works.

They have said their strategy is to find talent in the later rounds of the draft. Other teams have shown that if you are willing to spend money late, you can get first round talent late in the draft. I recall the Reds drafted a high school pitcher really late one year. He had a lot of talent, but told everyone he was going to college. The Reds picked him late.. Like maybe the 30th or 4)th round. His buddy or brother posted on this site.. Matt Lynch might've been the draftees' name.. Anyhow.. it came down to if the Reds paid him a million, he would've signed. Thus, if you have the money, you can get probably 10 first round draft picks in one year (equivalent in talent). I don't know if Washington is going to go that extreme or not, but the potential is there.






And I don't hate Bowden, nor do I want him to fail. I'm just not going to throw praise his way when IMO he doesn't deserve it..

I'm not giving him all of the credit if it works. It's obviously a team effort. At the same time, I think he deserves some credit, as he's definitely on the leadership team. Every GM has their strengths and weaknesses. Bowden has the strength of winning many of his trades. No one wins them all, but his trading ability is generally an asset. If Kasten uses him in that role, Bowden will help that team.





If you ask me, it sounds more like you hate Wayne Krivsky and want him to fail b/c you feel that Bowden got slighted by the Reds.

No, I want the Reds to succeed. But the early returns on Wayne aren't good. I agree with others that his main talent seems to be picking up castoffs or unwanted parts from other teams that are undervalued. His weaknesses seem to be in allocating funds, selecting free agents, and being too impulsive.

Other strengths and weaknesses will be revealed as his career continues.

Why would I want him to fail? I liked the guy until he started making dumb moves. I didn't want DanO to fail either, but he did.

Did I think Bowden got slighted by the Reds? Not necessarily. He knew he had a bad relationship with Allen. I'm sure he knew after the 2002 season that he was going to be fired in 2003. He had numerous job interviews and maybe offers while he GMed the Reds, but chose to stay in Cincy (for whatever the reason). I think he knows part of the business is that GMs will get fired. He even said later that being fired from Cincy was good for him, because he would've stayed in that job until he died if he wasn't fired. So there doesn't seem to be any hard feelings from him.

Now, do I think Bowden is a better GM than Wayne and DanO? Absolutely. I hope I am proven wrong though. I also hope that Cast gets a better GM when Wayne's contract expires.

I know some will say that I should just join the National's board. :laugh: I'm not that big a fan of Bowden. It will be interesting to see how that team is in 4 years or so. Kasten and Bowden are basically getting the opportunity to totally rebuild a team from scratch. They will probably have a lot more resources than they had in Cincy to do it as well. It will be interesting to see how it works out.

texasdave
03-14-2007, 02:58 PM
If they Nats are gonna build through the draft I would suggest they don't let Bowden have final say on who the draftees are gonna be.

pedro
03-14-2007, 03:05 PM
But the Red have increased spending on the farm and like it or not, Cincinnati is not going to support a team that loses a 100 games. Just because you can't see the logic in some of Wayne's moves doesn't mean they're dumb. Plus he had nothing to do with Milton.

REDREAD
03-14-2007, 03:07 PM
I think he's a product of the hitting era, he doesn't value defense or starting pitching much, he has an affinity for CF speedsters who can't hit and right now they are trying to make Nook Logan fit into a square hole, his teams are generally a mixture of bats and a lot of "If this goes right (though it's completely against the players makeup) then we'll do good." It's manifested in the myriad of players he tries to move to a different position (Boone, Kearns, Dmitri Young, Lopez) because of their bats.


In Cincy, Bowden had the handicap of having Allen have to approve everything. Starting pitching was expensive. Allen didn't value it. Guzman deal was almost scuttled. Penny deal was scuttled. Other trades were scuttled. Bowden was in talks for a lot of players that he knew Allen would reject. IIRC, he was in talks with Philly when Schilling was been shopped.
He picked up Wells, Neagle, and Guzman when money allowed him too.

Likewise, some of the speedy guys that couldn't hit were experimented with due to cost reasons.

I agree that moving Aaron Boone to 2b was ill advised. I'm not sure what you mean by Dimitri though.. it's not unprecendented when a team basically has two 1b, to move one to LF. Unless you mean that silly experiment when McKeon had Young at 3b for a game or two. I think it's a smart idea to try Lopez at 2b.. I mean, why not? He's a defensive liablity at SS, and they are rebuilding anyhow. Why not try it? I guess I don't get the Kearns position shift either.. I know Kearns played CF plenty times when Jr was hurt, but all teams have to do that when they don't have depth. I believe the Kearns to 3b experiment was Dan's idea.

As far as that posted article, right now they are rebuilding and seeing what these young players can do. Some of them are going to stick, some are going to wash out. That's what rebuilding is all about. In contrast, the Reds are either going to have to option Bray down or expose/lose Belise or Burton because they loaded up on marginal veteran relievers. Very short sighted in my opinion, although maybe they can find some sucker to dump Cormier to.