PDA

View Full Version : Henderson was your hard foul worth it?



WMR
03-08-2007, 09:24 PM
Dookies lose in the first round to NC State.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. :mooner: :beerme: :laugh: :evil: :thumbup:

captainmorgan07
03-08-2007, 09:26 PM
music to my ears down go the dukies

Highlifeman21
03-08-2007, 10:44 PM
Henderson wouldn't have made a difference in that game.

The kid is nothing more than Coach K's thug up his sleeve.

Way to take a page out of John Cheney's coaching playbook, Coach K.

halcyon
03-08-2007, 10:51 PM
The kid is nothing more than Coach K's thug up his sleeve.


Thats incredibly asinine [as I thought we discussed in the other Duke hater's thread].

But your first statement was on target: Henderson probably wouldn't have made a difference in the game.

macro
03-08-2007, 11:20 PM
The most joy I get from college basketball these days is watching Duke lose. Now, a first-round NCAA loss would be icing on the cake!

tomred
03-09-2007, 02:36 AM
How come Kentucky is so awful this year but Duke has 10 losses also but still are in the top 25 and Tubby can not coach little league and coach k is perfect

RedFanAlways1966
03-09-2007, 07:31 AM
The most joy I get from college basketball these days is watching Duke lose. Now, a first-round NCAA loss would be icing on the cake!

I too enjoy seeing them lose (as well as NC and a few others). Perhaps it has something to do with about 95% of their games are televised nationally on ESPN/ESPN2. They are "media darlings" and shoved down the throats of the entire country. Remind anyone of the wonderful Red Sox and Yankees?

macro
03-09-2007, 09:06 AM
How come Kentucky is so awful this year but Duke has 10 losses also but still are in the top 25 and Tubby can not coach little league and coach k is perfect

Because they're Duke and Coach K is perfect.

Being serious, though...surely they'll drop out the next poll. They've stayed in there longer than they deserve, though. I think too many people can't get their mind around Duke not being an elite team. I hope it becomes commonplace, but I won't hold my breath.

15fan
03-09-2007, 09:16 AM
With Henderson sitting it out, poor Coach K only had 5 McDonald's All-Americans at his disposal last night.

WMR
03-09-2007, 09:17 AM
Macro, I dunno anything about their recruiting, but Dicky V was crowing about the class they've got coming in next season on a telecast I was watching.

Highlifeman21
03-09-2007, 09:28 AM
Thats incredibly asinine [as I thought we discussed in the other Duke hater's thread].

But your first statement was on target: Henderson probably wouldn't have made a difference in the game.

Just repeating what I've heard on the Around the Horns, PTIs, Mike and Mike in the Morning, etc...

The substitution of Henderson into the game with less than a minute remaining was a suspect move by Coach K.

halcyon
03-09-2007, 11:05 AM
Having watched PTI, I'm relatively certain they didn't allege anything of the sort. Those talking head programs always mention all possibilities so they can rant and rave about something. No respected media members seriously believe that K woulda used Henderson as a thug in this case.

I looked at the game log and Henderson was in the game at the 3 min mark and at the 2 min mark. He hadn't just checked in. He had played 30 total minutes in the game and was one of Duke's MVP's.

My final points on the matter: Why would K use one of his best players as a thug? Wouldn't you use a unknown bench player (like Johnson, who was standing behind Hansbrough)? As I stated before, he's also the best friend of Wayne Ellington, which would also make him an odd choice to be an enforcer. As would the fact that he's an athletic guard and not a physical post player.

Highlifeman21
03-09-2007, 11:13 AM
Having watched PTI, I'm relatively certain they didn't allege anything of the sort. Those talking head programs always mention all possibilities so they can rant and rave about something. No respected media members seriously believe that K woulda used Henderson as a thug in this case.

I looked at the game log and Henderson was in the game at the 3 min mark and at the 2 min mark. He hadn't just checked in. He had played 30 total minutes in the game and was one of Duke's MVP's.

My final points on the matter: Why would K use one of his best players as a thug? Wouldn't you use a unknown bench player (like Johnson, who was standing behind Hansbrough)? As I stated before, he's also the best friend of Wayne Ellington, which would also make him an odd choice to be an enforcer. As would the fact that he's an athletic guard and not a physical post player.


All valid points.

Like I said, I saw nothing of the game until the highlights, and I only really started to form my opinion based on the ESPN rabble. I know I got excited to think Coach K would pull a Cheney and put a kid into the game specifically to commit a hard foul. Ah the conspiracy theorist in me.

Should be interesting to see how this incident stays with Henderson during his career at Duke.

halcyon
03-09-2007, 11:16 AM
How come Kentucky is so awful this year but Duke has 10 losses also but still are in the top 25 and Tubby can not coach little league and coach k is perfect

I'm guessing it has something to do with having won 7 out of the last 8 tournament championships in the toughest league in college basketball. I'm not disparaging Smith's coaching ability, but don't blame the media for the heat he's receiving. That's on UK's fanbase more than anything, IMO. Personally, I think he's a fine coach.


Being serious, though...surely they'll drop out the next poll. They've stayed in there longer than they deserve, though. I think too many people can't get their mind around Duke not being an elite team. I hope it becomes commonplace, but I won't hold my breath.

If there is a human bias in these polls (and I'm sure there is to some degree) I don't know how much of an effect it's had on Duke in this case. Take a look at some of the computer rankings. My personal favorite, the Sagarin ratings, has Duke rated 17th in the nation even after last nite's debacle. They've played the second toughest schedule in the ACC's new unbalanced scheduling system and one of the more difficult schedules in the nation overall. Thats why, despite having as many losses as some teams, they're still fairly well thought of (if you can say being in the top 25 is fairly well thought of).

flyer85
03-09-2007, 11:17 AM
They'll still be in the NCAA tourney and Henderson will get to play ... and that is really all that matters.

15fan
03-09-2007, 11:47 AM
If there is a human bias in these polls (and I'm sure there is to some degree) I don't know how much of an effect it's had on Duke in this case.

Myth #1: There is no bias towards Duke in the national polls.


Take a look at some of the computer rankings. My personal favorite, the Sagarin ratings, has Duke rated 17th in the nation even after last nite's debacle. They've played the second toughest schedule in the ACC's new unbalanced scheduling system and one of the more difficult schedules in the nation overall. Thats why, despite having as many losses as some teams, they're still fairly well thought of (if you can say being in the top 25 is fairly well thought of).

Myth #2: Duke has played a tough schedule.

Both #1 & #2 are debunked here:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1256898&postcount=15

There is a clear pro-Duke bias in the polls. Furthermore, Duke played a pretty weak out of conference schedule considering all of the talent on the roster. Compare the Duke "road" games (on neutral courts) or the big time games to other schools like Ohio State, Florida, North Carolina, UCLA, Texas, etc. Those schools weren't afraid to play power teams, especially in a true road environment. K, however, continued his annual tradition of being afraid to set foot on a non-conference opponent's home court.

In the ACC, these teams all have more wins over current AP top 25 teams than Duke: UNC (5), Maryland & Virginia Tech (4), Virginia, Georgia Tech & Florida State (3), NC State & Miami (2). Duke has 1 win against a team that's currently in either the AP or Coaches top 25. That single win was vs. Georgetown in Durham. That puts Duke on par with Boston College and ahead of Clemson & Wake Forest who don't have any wins against a current top 25 team.

(It should be noted, though, that BC has 2 wins and Wake has 1 win against teams ranked in the current top 25 of the Coaches Poll.)

Chip R
03-09-2007, 12:03 PM
There is a clear pro-Duke bias in the polls.


True. There's also a clear Notre Dame bias in the football polls. What are you gonna do? Until you get these polls done by computer - eliminating all biases - you're going to have teams overrated because of who they are.

Danny Serafini
03-09-2007, 01:24 PM
Fortunately, unlike football the polls are meaningless in basketball.

Chip R
03-09-2007, 01:30 PM
Fortunately, unlike football the polls are meaningless in basketball.


I wouldn't say they are meaningless. A name team like Duke is going to get a better seed than some team from the MAC even though that MAC team may be better. But they - just like RPI - are not the be all and end all on evaluating teams. There's always going to be some human element in the polls. Otherwise you would have a team like Montana who is 25-1 rated #1 over some other team like Ohio St. who has lost 3-4 games.

Danny Serafini
03-09-2007, 02:08 PM
The polls are not a criteria the selection committee uses when determining the field. The fact that Ohio St. is #1, or whether Duke is ranked or not, doesn't mean anything because the committee won't even look at it.

Chip R
03-09-2007, 02:14 PM
The polls are not a criteria the selection committee uses when determining the field. The fact that Ohio St. is #1, or whether Duke is ranked or not, doesn't mean anything because the committee won't even look at it.


But that's like saying, don't look at the elephant in the middle of the room. Margin of victory isn't supposed to mean anything in college football but when Texas whips someone 62-0, people are impressed and tend to rank them higher than if they won 20-19.

Danny Serafini
03-09-2007, 02:22 PM
But those rankings are then used to determine who plays in the championships for football. In basketball they're ignored. It's unlikely those on the committee even know that one team is ranked #12 in the coaches poll and the other #15 when comparing them for seeding. There are so many other stats and rankings to look at, the human polls aren't even in their minds.

Chip R
03-09-2007, 02:45 PM
But those rankings are then used to determine who plays in the championships for football. In basketball they're ignored. It's unlikely those on the committee even know that one team is ranked #12 in the coaches poll and the other #15 when comparing them for seeding. There are so many other stats and rankings to look at, the human polls aren't even in their minds.


Come on. You really think that these guys don't have an idea where these teams are ranked even if it's in the back of their minds? You think they don't realize if Duke or whoever is ranked 10th, 20th or not at all?

Danny Serafini
03-09-2007, 02:54 PM
Duke

Air Force

Winthrop

Marquette

Washington St.

Tennessee

Quick, tell me where they're ranked, or who's ahead of the next. Which one is #20 and which is #22? Sure the committee knows Duke is ranked, or can at least assume so. But they're also not going to have the top 25 memorized, and they won't be consulting it when they meet. They've got a whole lot of other, much more useful sets of numbers to look at. It's sort of like saying a group of sabermatricians trying to rank a batch of hitters would have their rankings thrown off here and there because they have raw RBI totals in the back of their minds. There are so many other more relevant numbers they are looking at that the less useful ones get ignored.

halcyon
03-09-2007, 07:54 PM
15fan - I would hardly say your "myths" are debunked. I haven't had time to read through your post in detail yet and probably won't until tomorrow. I did want to toss in a quick note, however. Forgive me if you covered this and I missed it in my haste, but aren't you ignoring the fact that the ACC has gone to unbalanced scheduling because of its recent expansion? Meaning, VA played the easiest in conference schedule of any ACC team (if I remember correctly). Duke played the second most difficult in conference schedule. Surely some of the pollsters (rightly) take these types of thing into consideration.

I must also agree with Danny that we're arguing over something that doesn't make a lot of difference in the long run anyways. Luckily, NCAA hoops uses the big Dance to settle things at the end of the year.

Razor Shines
03-09-2007, 08:28 PM
Duke is other college bb team I root for. They are very young and I honestly didn't expect much out of them this year. I do think they'll be better next year. Jon Scheyer is going make a lot of 3's over the next three years.

I don't think Duke got any preferential treatment from the refs on the Henderson situation. The more I watch that play the more I am convinced that all he intended to do was to foul Hansbrough hard enough to keep him from getting an easy dunk. The ball came loose before he got there and unfortunately the worst happened. It was a flagrant foul, but I don't even think he should have been ejected from the game let alone be suspended. And I don't think there is any team that I hate in college bb, I like North Carolina and Hansbrough is one of my favorite players in the country to watch. I love his game, but he deserved a hard foul in that situation. If I am playing there is no way I let him have an easy dunk and I'm gonna foul him hard enough that he's not gonna get the ball up on the rim, he's going to the line for two. Nothing dirty just a good hard foul, if they really wanted to hurt him or play dirty they could have under cut him. And I am pretty sure that Hansbrough wouldn't give up a dunk to a Duke player in that situation either.