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NDRed
03-09-2007, 11:57 AM
No mention that the Cubs drafted him first.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2007/columns/story?columnist=phillips_steve&id=2792089

oneupper
03-09-2007, 12:00 PM
Phillips makes it sound as if the REDS had a choice. Or better said their only choice was to take Hamilton. After that...its big leagues or bust.

I'd say it's RULE V that needs a little flexibility.

flyer85
03-09-2007, 12:00 PM
Sports has always been about those with greater talent get more chances and opportunities to prove they aren't worthy. The size of your bonus goes a long way to determining the size of your opportunity.

membengal
03-09-2007, 12:01 PM
Victor Zambrano, now he EARNED it.

Scott Kazmir, snotty kid, he hadn't.

That trade comes clearer now...

Red Leader
03-09-2007, 12:01 PM
No mention that the Cubs drafted him first.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2007/columns/story?columnist=phillips_steve&id=2792089

Second paragraph it was mentioned.

Phillips does bring up an interesting point about how other minor leaguers will react. IMO, that's part of the business, though.

flyer85
03-09-2007, 12:06 PM
IMO, that's part of the business, though.some 20th round pick from last year just isn't going to get the chances that Stubbs will, no matter how hard he works. That's just a hard fact of the sports business, those with greater talent get greater chances.

KoryMac5
03-09-2007, 12:08 PM
It has always been my opinion that whoever plays the best gets the job. Right now Hamilton is outplaying several of the Reds in the OF. That is the best message that he can send to those players who are feeling any amount of resentment towards him.

membengal
03-09-2007, 12:10 PM
some 20th round pick from last year just isn't going to get the chances that Stubbs will, no matter how hard he works. That's just a hard fact of the sports business, those with greater talent get greater chances.


Boy, you'd think Phillips would kinda know that, being a former GM and all...

Like I said above, that article makes clear a lot of things about his tenure with the Mets...

NJReds
03-09-2007, 12:10 PM
Victor Zambrano, now he EARNED it.

Scott Kazmir, snotty kid, he hadn't.

That trade comes clearer now...


Phillips didn't make that deal...Duquette did.

But Phillips, who sometimes gets a timeslot on NY sports talk radio, is a buffoon.

membengal
03-09-2007, 12:11 PM
Phillips didn't make that deal...Duquette did.

But Phillips, who sometimes gets a timeslot on NY sports talk radio, is a buffoon.

Rats. Really? I always blamed Phillips for that one.

membengal
03-09-2007, 12:13 PM
Yup, Jim Duquette. My bad, Steve Phillips. I will think bad of you for other things, then.

Edited to add:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Phillips

Phillips' wikipedia page is an interesting read:

Steve Phillips (born on May 18, 1963) was the general manager of the New York Mets from 1997-2003. He was promoted to General Manager of Baseball Operations on July 16, 1997 [1], took a leave of absence between November 8 and November 16 of 1998, and was fired on June 12, 2003.[2]

Phillips credits include acquiring stars such as Al Leiter, Mike Piazza, and Robin Ventura.

Phillips lead them to the World Series against the New York Yankees in 2000, is credited with drafting David Wright and acquiring Jose Reyes. For a brief stint in 1998, he resigned as general manager because of a sexual harassment suit; Phillips admitted to adultery but denied harassment, and the civil suit was settled out of court.[1] Phillips was fired as the general manager on June 12, 2003, after consecutive disappointing seasons following the World Series appearance.

Although Phillips is sometimes blamed for trading away Scott Kazmir, in fact, he had been fired over thirteen months before that trade, which was the responsibility of Jim Duquette. He did, however, trade away future all-stars Jason Bay and Melvin Mora. Also, he was responsible for some dubious trades that ended up being disasters for the Mets, such as Mo Vaughn and Roberto Alomar.

klw
03-09-2007, 12:16 PM
When I first saw the thread title I thought this was Brandon Phillips who was upset.

reds44
03-09-2007, 12:22 PM
When I first saw the thread, I let out on uh-oh because I thought it was Brandon Phillips,

Always Red
03-09-2007, 12:22 PM
If the Yankees, Mets, or Bosox had made this selection, or had the Cubs kept Hamilton for themselves, it would have been heralded as a mark of pure genius by all the pundits, Steve Phillips included.

A team in flyover country pulls it off, and it's suspect for a number of reasons.

It's business, pure and simple.

lollipopcurve
03-09-2007, 12:22 PM
yeah, yeah, yeah....

you can get your hand slapped for juicing while all those non-juicing minor leaguers get a pat on the back and a bus ticket back home -- is there a message there?

way to take a stand, Steve....

Hamilton has worked his way back -- from way back -- to being a talented baseball player -- and he ain't juicing. That's enough for me.

Strikes Out Looking
03-09-2007, 12:27 PM
Steve Phillips is basically an idiot. I think he got plenty of second chances in his life--what does that say about ESPN for giving him a cushy job talking about baseball after his past mistakes.

Baseball is about winning. If Hamilton helps the Reds win, that is the statement, pure and simple. As long as he is now acting within a certain moral zone, there is no problem with his past behavior. Phillips, of all people, should know that.

NJReds
03-09-2007, 12:36 PM
Lets not give him too much credit for Jose Reyes, either. I believe it was their current GM, Omar Minaya, that did much of the scouting/recommending of Reyes when he was Phillips asst. GM.

Redsland
03-09-2007, 12:49 PM
That might be the most contradictory piece of journalism I've seen in a while.

"I'm rooting for the guy the Reds will hypocritically elevate to Major League status, thereby doing what championship teams don't, although I wouldn't have picked him myself, because after all, baseball is a game of redemption, and Hamilton is a great story.

:dunno:

Razor Shines
03-09-2007, 12:55 PM
So he agrees that Hamilton is extremely talented and would want to have him in his organization but he wouldn't have picked him because he would rather make a point to his players that aren't good enought to make the Major League roster? Got it. Makes sense.

lollipopcurve
03-09-2007, 12:57 PM
That might be the most contradictory piece of journalism I've seen in a while.

"I'm rooting for the guy the Reds will hypocritically elevate to Major League status, thereby doing what championship teams don't, although I wouldn't have picked him myself, because after all, baseball is a game of redemption, and Hamilton is a great story.


Absolutely. Not only is the article self-serving, it's idiotic.

Chip R
03-09-2007, 12:57 PM
If the Yankees, Mets, or Bosox had made this selection, or had the Cubs kept Hamilton for themselves, it would have been heralded as a mark of pure genius by all the pundits, Steve Phillips included.

A team in flyover country pulls it off, and it's suspect for a number of reasons.

It's business, pure and simple.


Yep. That's exactly what would happen.

pedro
03-09-2007, 01:02 PM
If the Yankees, Mets, or Bosox had made this selection, or had the Cubs kept Hamilton for themselves, it would have been heralded as a mark of pure genius by all the pundits, Steve Phillips included.

A team in flyover country pulls it off, and it's suspect for a number of reasons.

It's business, pure and simple.\

Just like the Reds aren't allowed to re-sign their own pitchers w/out being accused of driving up the market.

Chip R
03-09-2007, 01:22 PM
Here's a better story from Jayson Stark. Make sure you look at the comments at the end of the story. It seems like Cub Fan is not enamored with Josh.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2007/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2792609

Hamilton's Red-letter spring is made for Hollywood
By Jayson Stark
ESPN.com

SARASOTA, Fla. -- Sometimes, the stories we tell aren't really baseball stories.

Sometimes, they're just the stories of human beings -- people who rise, who fall, who sadden us, who inspire us. We only use baseball as a reason to tell those tales.

So we know that if it weren't for baseball, there might be no reason to tell the story of Josh Hamilton right now. But thankfully, baseball has given us that excuse.

Thankfully, one of the great human stories in America is suddenly unfolding in front of us, on these baseball fields beneath the Florida palm trees.

For too long, Josh Hamilton was the talk of baseball for all the wrong reasons. Now he's the talk of baseball for all the right reasons.

He has climbed out of a real-life horror film and back into the uniform of the Cincinnati Reds. And if he keeps playing the way he is playing, he is going to make the Cincinnati Reds, as your standard five-tool reserve outfielder.

He is 25 years old now. It's nearly eight years since the Devil Rays made him the first pick in the 1999 draft. There is a three-year black hole missing out of his career. And the stuff he is doing this spring, he has no business doing. But he is doing it anyway.

A week into spring training, he's batting .476 (10-for-21). He has mashed a 500-foot home run. And there isn't a National Leaguer in the state of Florida with more hits than he has (10).

So already, teammate Ryan Freel says, "he's a great story."

And he is. But not just a baseball story.

"Getting back here, it means a lot, baseball-wise," Josh Hamilton says. "But also, it's going to mean a lot when I get to tell my story to people."

He is telling that story pretty much every day now, to anyone who asks. And those of us who type for a living are all too happy to help him tell it.

It is the classic saga of the all-American boy whose life unexpectedly careens down life's darkest alley -- but then, remarkably, zigzags back in the other direction. And now here this guy is, on the cusp of doing something few humans get the chance to do:

Grabbing hold of an unspeakably tragic script and crafting a much different ending. But not on any keyboard.

In real life.

He is a walking Hollywood stand-up-and-cheer production. He is teaching us all a lesson about why we give second chances in life. And he is basking in it all.

Asked what he is savoring most about this spring of rebirth, Josh Hamilton's face takes on a look we don't get to see much -- the look of a man who knows he is living a dream he thought he'd let slip away.

"Just getting back on the field," he says. "Sunshine. Uniform on. All of it. It's so good."

So good. Too good. Too good to feel real, even. Every day seems to bring a whole new reason to ask: Is this really happening?

Imagine this scene, for instance:

Imagine our hero, driving home from a spring-training baseball game last weekend, his wife by his side, a smile on his face ... and his major league baseball uniform still on his back.

"I wore my uniform home from the game the other day," he admits. "I rode home with my wife from the Twins game and stopped at Dairy Queen, with my uniform on. And when I got home and took it off, I just looked at it."

Looked at it?

"Yeah," he says. "To take in the moment."

At the Dairy Queen, he reports, "I had the biggest burger I could get. It reminded me of being in a [American] Legion baseball game. Or high school. It's just that feeling of, it's a game. And just having fun with it."

Who would have thought a couple of years ago that this guy had many -- or any -- fun days left in anybody's baseball uniform?

Somehow, he had descended into a drug abyss from which there appeared to be no escape. He'd been suspended by baseball indefinitely, for violating the terms of his treatment program. His wife had left him. He had an infant daughter he'd barely laid eyes on. He'd pushed away all the friends who had reached out to help him.

And then he turned up on his grandmother's doorstep in September 2005. He'd lost 50 pounds. He had nowhere else to turn. She took him in and fed him, and all seemed right in his world, finally. But it wasn't. A couple of weeks later, she looked into his eyes, knew he was high and confronted him.

"She told me she couldn't take it anymore, that I was hurting the people I love," Hamilton says. "My grandmother seeing me like that -- that was the turning point."

That date was Oct. 5, 2005. It is burned into Josh Hamilton's brain, because of what it signifies. It was the day his life took the U-turn that has led him here.

There were many checkpoints along the journey back, many profound religious experiences, many people who helped, many people who cared. You'll see them all in the movie some day.

But the forces that led him to this team, in this spring, at this point in his life are so powerful, so cinematic, so packed with elements of fate and coincidence that even his teammates get chills talking about them.

"I told him, 'There's a reason why you're here. All this stuff happened for a reason,'" Freel says. "And he believes that."

Technically, Hamilton is in this Reds spring-training camp because they maneuvered to obtain him in December's Rule 5 draft of unprotected minor leaguers. But there is more going on here than the technicalities.

What were the odds that Josh Hamilton would wind up playing for a team whose manager, Jerry Narron, has known him since he was a teenager?

What were the odds that Narron's brother, Johnny, actually coached Hamilton in a summer-draft showcase setting a decade ago -- and had a son who had grown up with (and played baseball and basketball with) Hamilton, since he was (gulp) 9 years old?

And what were the odds that Reds GM Wayne Krivsky would work out a deal with the Cubs for the No. 3 pick in that Rule 5 draft before he even knew there was this connection between his manager's family and his future draft pick's family?

"The amazing thing to me," the manager says, "just by the grace of God about how all this worked out, is the night before the Rule 5 draft Wayne wanted to run it by me about drafting somebody with a past. Wayne said his name, and my jaw just dropped -- because Wayne had no idea I even knew him."

In fact, Narron -- as caring a man as you'll find in anyone's dugout -- had been beating himself up for years, just because he'd never reached out to Hamilton during those darkest days. So Narron told his GM, "If anybody can get this thing done, we can get this thing done together."

For added support, the Reds then hired Narron's brother as their new video/administrative coach. And they're committed, Johnny Narron says, "to be there for Josh, for whatever he needs ... on and off the field."

So far, it has all worked out so poetically, it feels more like a fairy tale than the poignant comeback drama of a troubled young man.

This guy missed three full seasons (2003-05), remember -- and got just 50 at-bats, in a short-season league, last year. So how many players could lose that huge chunk of their career -- and still look like one of the most talented players on the field?

"I compare it to the guys who went off to World War II, missed two or three years and then came back and were able to play," Jerry Narron says. "For somebody with average ability, it would be impossible. But Josh has got much more than just average talent."

Oh, he had his doubts it was all still in there. But "at the same time," Hamilton says, "that just lets you know that it's a God thing, because to be out of baseball that long and to come back, and to still have the ability I have, it's just one of those things that lets me know that this is what I'm supposed to do."

And maybe it is. Another one of his new teammates, Jeff Conine, has watched all this with a sense of awe.

"I know if I took three years off," Conine says, "I wouldn't be able to make contact with the ball, let alone hit balls 500 feet."

It won't always come this easy, obviously. Josh Hamilton knows that. We know that. The pitchers will get serious. The breaking balls will get sharper. The word will get out. That batting average won't be pushing .500 for long. His playing time will shrink. The temptations that swayed him once will always be there.

But spring is supposed to be a time for feel-good stories. And no one in baseball has made more people feel good than Josh Hamilton.

His wife, Katie, and his two daughters sit there in the stands every day -- watching, cheering, praying. Every day, the calls, the e-mails, the text messages roll in from all the people rooting for him. And Josh Hamilton does his best to take it all in.

Asked if there has been one moment this spring when it hit him that this was really happening, he replies: "Every day. Every day."

"It almost feels like my first spring training all over again," the star of baseball's most inspirational show says. "And I just thank God every day for it."

Jayson Stark is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

Roy Tucker
03-09-2007, 01:26 PM
That might be the most contradictory piece of journalism I've seen in a while.

"I'm rooting for the guy the Reds will hypocritically elevate to Major League status, thereby doing what championship teams don't, although I wouldn't have picked him myself, because after all, baseball is a game of redemption, and Hamilton is a great story.

:dunno:

That was my take as well.

Phillips can be goofy, but that was one of the goofiest pieces I've read in a while.

I guess he was trying to come with a unique slant on it. :confused:

WMR
03-09-2007, 01:26 PM
WilyMoROCKS: Steve Phillips needs to shut-up and save himself further embarassment and save the rest of us time wasted reading this drivel

luvdozer
03-09-2007, 01:28 PM
"The decision to acquire Hamilton and give him a chance to be a major league player without doing anything to earn it over the past four seasons makes a statement to current Reds major leaguers and especially to the organization's minor league players. This one decision contradicts everything the organization claims is important. "

So, by Phillips reasoning, if you have a chance to acquire a player who absolutely has the talent to make your team and is ready to be a major leaguer - but has not spent as much time in the minors as most current major leaguers - you should send him down to the minors where he cant learn any more than he has learned already. Under this line of thinking, the minor leagues are a place where people "do time" and "pay dues" rather than "learn baseball skills"

I kind of hope that the reds minor league system is more focused on teaching and growing players than they are about getting them to pay their dues.

If you think the guy has learned a lesson and wont disrupt the clubhouse; and you think he has the talent to perform at the big league level, what message do you send if you send him to the minors? It sounds to me that the message you send is that performance and character DONT matter

westofyou
03-09-2007, 01:35 PM
Dear Steve,

Baseball is a business, not a college program, not a fraternity.

In short you get by on talent in the game.

That's the ultimate currency that the game accepts to get in the clubhouse door. You know that, and I know that.

Any pretense that you believe that it's nothing but a merit based game is nothing more then internet fodder and empty air from a man who once upon a time himself had to build a team based on talent and within a budget.

RedsBaron
03-09-2007, 01:37 PM
Phillips didn't make that deal...Duquette did.

But Phillips, who sometimes gets a timeslot on NY sports talk radio, is a buffoon.

ESPN has given Phillips a chance to be on its national broadcasts without doing anything to earn it, which sends a message to current ESPN broadcasters and especially to aspiring young broadcasters, and which contradicts everything that ESPN claims to stand for. It sends the wrong message to all of the hardworking, dedicated young broadcasters who are paying the price to get to ESPN, not to mention that it sends the wrong message to Phillips. Maybe ESPN can spin the decsion to put Phillips on the air and try to justify it to young broadcasters, but I expect they will see through it and realize that if you have certain connections, even though you are a buffoon without any broadcasting talent you can get on the air before dedicated people who have put in the time learning their craft. Now I am rooting for Phillips to develope into a quality broadcaster, but this decision still sends the wrong message.

princeton
03-09-2007, 01:40 PM
I think that he makes a great point

(I'm channeling Dan O'Brien)

Chip R
03-09-2007, 01:40 PM
I think that he makes a great point

(I'm channeling Dan O'Brien)


Don't do that. You'll just hurt yourself.

Caseyfan21
03-09-2007, 01:49 PM
ESPN has given Phillips a chance to be on its national broadcasts without doing anything to earn it, which sends a message to current ESPN broadcasters and especially to aspiring young broadcasters, and which contradicts everything that ESPN claims to stand for. It sends the wrong message to all of the hardworking, dedicated young broadcasters who are paying the price to get to ESPN, not to mention that it sends the wrong message to Phillips. Maybe ESPN can spin the decsion to put Phillips on the air and try to justify it to young broadcasters, but I expect they will see through it and realize that if you have certain connections, even though you are a buffoon without any broadcasting talent you can get on the air before dedicated people who have put in the time learning their craft. Now I am rooting for Phillips to develope into a quality broadcaster, but this decision still sends the wrong message.

You should send this in an email to him, seriously, good stuff.

There's a reason that good ol' Steve-O hasn't gotten another job in baseball since 2003. It's because he opens his mouth without thinking first, just like this. The guy is a first class idiot and it's pretty obvious when you watch him provide stellar analysis in all of ESPN's great baseball programming.

Redsland
03-09-2007, 01:58 PM
I think that he makes a great point

(I'm channeling Dan O'Brien)
His point is certainly one with several potentialities, not the least of which is its viability both in terms of truth in an absolute sense, and also in the other. Of course, we can't predict with exactitude what the ultimate outcome will be in this or that case, but obviously we're moving in that direction.

Slider
03-09-2007, 02:03 PM
It's not about effort alone...It's about effort that results in production on the baseball field.

Hamilton has more production potential than most of our minor leaguers.

If Reds minor leaguers make something happen on the field this year it won't matter to them what Hamilton is doing...because they will be on the way up also.

If Hamilton can't hack it he will be sent packing.

Produce or perish...a good message to send IMHO

WMR
03-09-2007, 02:05 PM
ESPN has given Phillips a chance to be on its national broadcasts without doing anything to earn it, which sends a message to current ESPN broadcasters and especially to aspiring young broadcasters, and which contradicts everything that ESPN claims to stand for. It sends the wrong message to all of the hardworking, dedicated young broadcasters who are paying the price to get to ESPN, not to mention that it sends the wrong message to Phillips. Maybe ESPN can spin the decsion to put Phillips on the air and try to justify it to young broadcasters, but I expect they will see through it and realize that if you have certain connections, even though you are a buffoon without any broadcasting talent you can get on the air before dedicated people who have put in the time learning their craft. Now I am rooting for Phillips to develope into a quality broadcaster, but this decision still sends the wrong message.

The prosecution rests? :clap:

acredsfan
03-09-2007, 02:06 PM
Dear Mr. Failed GM Phillips:

Don't be giving me crap about hard work and getting a chance. Most people would have crumbled, and probably given up on their lives in Hamilton's situation. Suicide, murder, and many other things usually come from people battling addictions such as Hamilton did. I've never battled that, but I can promise you that Hamilton worked harder battling his demons and fighting his addiction than you ever worked in your life. You want to tell the minor leaguers to work hard and persevere and they can acheive thier goals, then this is the right story. He worked hard and overcame the toughest battle he will ever face, his own mind and body. Through all this, his talent never left, and he worked hard to get back into shape and to where he is now. You know what the minor league players with the right minds and attitudes will see? They will see how hard it is to overcome bad decisions made in your life, but Hamilton proves it is possible. Hamilton proves that life isn't all about baseball. In my book, Josh has worked harder than any prospect I know of, maybe not with baseball all the time, but in life. Life > Baseball.

Thanks

DoogMinAmo
03-09-2007, 02:08 PM
I think that he makes a great point

(I'm channeling Dan O'Brien)

That was far too short winded, if so.

NJReds
03-09-2007, 02:18 PM
ESPN has given Phillips a chance to be on its national broadcasts without doing anything to earn it, which sends a message to current ESPN broadcasters and especially to aspiring young broadcasters, and which contradicts everything that ESPN claims to stand for. It sends the wrong message to all of the hardworking, dedicated young broadcasters who are paying the price to get to ESPN, not to mention that it sends the wrong message to Phillips. Maybe ESPN can spin the decsion to put Phillips on the air and try to justify it to young broadcasters, but I expect they will see through it and realize that if you have certain connections, even though you are a buffoon without any broadcasting talent you can get on the air before dedicated people who have put in the time learning their craft. Now I am rooting for Phillips to develope into a quality broadcaster, but this decision still sends the wrong message.


Touche. Next time Mr. Phillip's is on ESPN radio in NY, I'll try to call in and pass that along.

Kc61
03-09-2007, 02:40 PM
I find Phillips' comments infuriating because he obviously has no understanding of what it is like to root for a small market team like the Reds. He seems like one of these guys who thinks baseball begins and ends with the Yankees, RedSox and Mets.

Teams like the Reds have to use unusual means to attract players. They can't just buy them. Reaching out for a guy like Hamilton was just another example of the "out of the box" thinking that Krivsky uses to find some top talent. He couldn't just sign Carlos Beltran like the Mets did.

And, as others have said, Hamilton deserved a second chance. At least he recognized his problems and has faced up to them.

MartyFan
03-09-2007, 02:46 PM
Please do not let it be lost that the reason Phillips is making these comments on ESPN is because no team in either league found his thoughts valuable enough to even be an adviser.

Phillips is a further embarrassment to ESPN.

OldXOhio
03-09-2007, 02:53 PM
In short you get by on talent in the game.




In short some can get by on a lack of talent in the BBTN game.

What a garbage write up. Even if I wasn't a Reds fan who took immediate umbrage with the notion that he was attacking my beloved team, I'd have finished the article thinking my head hurt the minute I even began reading the first sentence.

TOBTTReds
03-09-2007, 03:02 PM
It sends the wrong message to all of the hardworking, dedicated young men who are paying the price to get to the major leagues.

So he has done nothing to get the this point? He has done nothing to stay clean, and all his talent was without practice his whole life? Even when he was suspended, he was practicing. Either way, what about guys who make it through quickly like Felix Hernandez, or if Homer made it this year. This is the dumbest article I've seen written.

corkedbat
03-09-2007, 03:03 PM
Let's just do away with the Rule 5 draft as a reward for Stevie's self-righteousness. :rolleyes:

If Phillips' had a clue, he'd be in a front office somewhere. Can't stand him

MartyFan
03-09-2007, 03:25 PM
Ok...did anyone else see this quote from Ozzie Guillen? I fell out of my seat laughing.

After hearing that ESPN's Steve Phillips, a former Mets general manager, had singled him out as being on the managerial hot seat, Ozzie Guillen replied,
"I hope it's true, because he might get one right."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070308soxbits,1,7363452,print.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

bottom_feeder
03-09-2007, 03:32 PM
Phillips makes it sound as if the REDS had a choice. Or better said their only choice was to take Hamilton. After that...its big leagues or bust.

I'd say it's RULE V that needs a little flexibility.

Disagree. Rule V works exactly as intended. If there's someone not on the 40 man roster that another club thinks can play in the big leagues NOW, that other club can give him a shot.

If Rule V is changed to allow the selecting club to send him to the minors without compensation, what's the point? The talent is still languishing in the minors.

IMO, Hamilton wasn't a good pick. Maybe he'll end up being the next Wily Mo Pena after the Reds stash him on the roster a few years, but the odds are against it. I would've rather the Reds paid the Cubs to take a young bullpen arm with upside. The bullpen guy could pitch in mop up and might have a better chance of helping in the future.

RFS62
03-09-2007, 03:47 PM
Readers Digest version.

Steve Phillips is an idiot.

That is all.

Wheelhouse
03-09-2007, 04:02 PM
Does Steve Phillips know nothing? The entire system of developing ballplayers is rife with unfairness, from players signed to big bonuses being pushed ahead of other players, to some players using performance enhancing drugs, to players with relatives working at the ML level getting favoritism. If you aren't hip to that, then you probably don't have a thick enough skin to be a major leaguer anyway. It ain't fair and never has been. Steve must have been really out-of-touch when he was a GM...

oneupper
03-09-2007, 04:05 PM
Disagree. Rule V works exactly as intended. If there's someone not on the 40 man roster that another club thinks can play in the big leagues NOW, that other club can give him a shot.

If Rule V is changed to allow the selecting club to send him to the minors without compensation, what's the point? The talent is still languishing in the minors.



I see what you're saying, but the leap from not on 40-man, to 25-man or else (no options) is a big one. If a different criterion were applied, such as X amount of days on the 25-man or something (perhaps 1 option or 40-man)....(i'm just speculating), perhaps more players would be drafted and...in the end, more players would get a "shot".

Then again...perhaps it would be worse.

bottom_feeder
03-09-2007, 04:30 PM
I see what you're saying, but the leap from not on 40-man, to 25-man or else (no options) is a big one. If a different criterion were applied, such as X amount of days on the 25-man or something (perhaps 1 option or 40-man)....(i'm just speculating), perhaps more players would be drafted and...in the end, more players would get a "shot".

Then again...perhaps it would be worse.

It's just my opinion, but if the team that picks a Josh Hamilton isn't going to give him a 25 man roster spot, then he's no better off than he was with his original team. IMO, if you give the team something like you selected, then talent rich teams will get punished. It will become more cost efficient not to participate in the amatuer draft and then just pick five guys in rule V every year and option them down to your farm. Maybe not that extreme, but you see my point.

IMO, that's what makes Hamilton a dubious pick, and that's why the Rays exposed him. He's going to struggle to OBP .280 this year if he sticks with the team. The Reds are going to have to go with basically a 24 man roster this year if they want to keep him. Hitting a few fastballs in spring training is not a good indicator that he can play. Like I said, he's a lot like Wily Mo, although Wily Mo was much further developed when the rules forced the Reds to carry him on the 25 man roster, since Wily Mo did well in AA at that time and hadn't been out of baseball for awhile. I'm going to root for Hamilton, since he's one of ours, but I think we need to expect zero production out of him this year if he's kept.

paulrichjr
03-09-2007, 04:46 PM
Wow this guy is insane. I absolutely cannot follow any of his logic.

TRF
03-09-2007, 04:46 PM
It's just my opinion, but if the team that picks a Josh Hamilton isn't going to give him a 25 man roster spot, then he's no better off than he was with his original team. IMO, if you give the team something like you selected, then talent rich teams will get punished. It will become more cost efficient not to participate in the amatuer draft and then just pick five guys in rule V every year and option them down to your farm. Maybe not that extreme, but you see my point.

IMO, that's what makes Hamilton a dubious pick, and that's why the Rays exposed him. He's going to struggle to OBP .280 this year if he sticks with the team. The Reds are going to have to go with basically a 24 man roster this year if they want to keep him. Hitting a few fastballs in spring training is not a good indicator that he can play. Like I said, he's a lot like Wily Mo, although Wily Mo was much further developed when the rules forced the Reds to carry him on the 25 man roster, since Wily Mo did well in AA at that time and hadn't been out of baseball for awhile. I'm going to root for Hamilton, since he's one of ours, but I think we need to expect zero production out of him this year if he's kept.

There are a few differences between WMP and Hamilton. Maturity being the biggest one. WMP was a kid when he was playing at the major league level. He missed almost a year due to injury at AA Chatt. He was never a good defender, but that was exacerbated by his lack of training and development. Conversely, Hamilton is an excellent defender, and his defense was a plus when drafted. As for maturity, beginning the road to overcome addiction shows that. It's about patience with with everything. That he is where he is shows that maturity. It's his greatest ally in making the team. And as for the OBP, I'd say he could manag a .335 OBP. considering his long absence from baseball, that would be pretty remarkable. But even if he's limited offensively, his defense will NOT in any way hurt the club.

Chip R
03-09-2007, 04:55 PM
Wow this guy is insane. I absolutely cannot follow any of his logic.


Oddly enough, I can. He's saying that guys who have paid their dues in the Reds farm system are going to be POed that a guy like Josh - who has only had a handful of ABs above A ball - may get the chance to spend the entire season with the Reds. After all they worked just as hard and have had success at higher levels than Josh did. So you could see some of them being jealous, resentful and envious. But I say, so what? Life isn't fair. Guys with options get sent down all the time so guys with major league deals make the 25 man roster. My advice to anyone who is bitter about Josh making the roster over them is don't worry about Josh. Work hard, play well and you'll get your chance. Maybe it won't be with the Reds but there are 29 other teams out there not to mention Japanese league teams.

paulrichjr
03-09-2007, 05:05 PM
Oddly enough, I can. He's saying that guys who have paid their dues in the Reds farm system are going to be POed that a guy like Josh - who has only had a handful of ABs above A ball - may get the chance to spend the entire season with the Reds. After all they worked just as hard and have had success at higher levels than Josh did. So you could see some of them being jealous, resentful and envious. But I say, so what? Life isn't fair. Guys with options get sent down all the time so guys with major league deals make the 25 man roster. My advice to anyone who is bitter about Josh making the roster over them is don't worry about Josh. Work hard, play well and you'll get your chance. Maybe it won't be with the Reds but there are 29 other teams out there not to mention Japanese league teams.


Oh I understand that. I just can't see how it is different than everything else in baseball and in life. Phillips never once said that the Reds could just work out a deal with the Rays to send him down. If he isn't good enough to stay on the team the Reds will either send him down and risk a claim or work out a deal...that simple. I honestly don't see how this is any different than any other waiver claim deal.

I want to go on record again that I have been a big time critic of WayneK since even before "The Deal", however I have been behind him on this one since Day 1. (I rated him the 4th best prospect in the Reds system over on the minor league side) I think this is what DanO couldn't do and small teams have to do...Low risk - high potential reward moves are very smart.

KronoRed
03-09-2007, 05:13 PM
I see where he's coming from and I don't necessarily think it's a bad article, consider a top prospect, he may think "hey I can goof off for 4 years as long as I don't tear anything I will still have a chance"

Now I doubt any kid with half a brain would do such a thing, but it's something to consider.

vaticanplum
03-09-2007, 05:29 PM
I see where he's coming from and I don't necessarily think it's a bad article, consider a top prospect, he may think "hey I can goof off for 4 years as long as I don't tear anything I will still have a chance"

Now I doubt any kid with half a brain would do such a thing, but it's something to consider.

Except that Josh Hamilton is, at present, playing well. If he stops playing well, he will pay the consequences, a result completely unrelated to his drug addiction. Any kid who had the reaction you describe is too stupid to play baseball. Josh Hamilton has not been strictly "goofing off" by playing golf; he has been battling a serious addiction. His work ethic outside of his addiction appears to be good.

I think it's a riconkulous article. What bad message does this send? What is the message we want to send to kids, then: everything in life will go perfectly smoothly for you, and if it doesn't, don't even bother trying to come back from it, because no one will give you a chance? Yes, Hamilton has to stay on the Reds' roster or be offered back. This is the case with every single Rule V draft pick. I don't see Phillips questioning their second chance. So it's simply related to the drugs -- something that Hamilton has very publicly addressed (which is a very humbling thing to do, and incredibly inspiring to kids with problems in my opinion).

Life is difficult. There is zero exception to this rule: everyone will face difficulties at some point. The question we all face is not whether we'll encounter difficulties, but whether we'll sweep them under the rug or deal with them. Phillips can sweep all he wants. But it's presumptuous and damaging to ask a baseball team to do the same.

guttle11
03-09-2007, 05:31 PM
I think Phillips is missing the point entirely.

No one has to play in the minors. They do so because they are not ready to be a Major Leaguer. If the organization feels a guy can play at the MLB level, then he deserves to do so, even if he was drafted yesterday.

westofyou
03-09-2007, 05:33 PM
You who didn't pay his dues?

Mel Ott, that's who.

Al Kaline too.

Jerks.

RedsBaron
03-09-2007, 05:44 PM
You who didn't pay his dues?

Mel Ott, that's who.

Al Kaline too.

Jerks.
Very true. I bet the Dodgers rue the day they let that Koufax kid play in the majors without paying his dues in the minors--that set a terrible example for the minor league pitchers in their system.

oneupper
03-09-2007, 05:45 PM
You who didn't pay his dues?

Mel Ott, that's who.

Al Kaline too.

Jerks.


There was a reserve clause then. Nowadays it seems that teams will leave good players in the minors as long as they can, just to control them, even if they are ready for the majors.

They want to get maximum performance out of those non-arb years.

The Griffs and A-Rods in the MLB at 19 or 20 are things of the past.

OnBaseMachine
03-09-2007, 05:46 PM
Steve Phillips is a jackass.

That's all I have to say.

westofyou
03-09-2007, 05:49 PM
Nowadays it seems that teams will leave good players in the minors as long as they can, just to control them, even if they are ready for the majors.Those players used to be the Yankees currency, they had more farms then all the AL teams and maybe everyone aside from the Cardinals. They always kept guys in the minors, polishing their resume in hope that they'd be good enough to use as star grabbers when the poorer teams had bills due.

Dom Heffner
03-09-2007, 06:07 PM
Second chances should and will be available for those who can play the game. If you can't play and end up on drugs, you're really screwed.

But if you can play- as Hamilton is trying to show- then yep, you'll always have a chance no matter how bad of a guy you are or how funky of a path you took to get to the show.

I'm sure other potential stars aren't looking at this and thinking this is the way to go. For all the success he may have, Hamilton will always wish he took a different route.

RFS62
03-09-2007, 06:10 PM
Phillips is booing the Prodigal Son, one of the classic stories in all literature.

What an idiot.

pedro
03-09-2007, 06:11 PM
Phillips is booing the Prodigal Son, one of the classic stories in all literature.

What an idiot.

But he has such great hair.

RFS62
03-09-2007, 06:16 PM
But he has such great hair.


Yep. He's got the announcers version of the "good face".

He's definitely found his element. Witty banter with John Kruk and that wacky bunch at Baseball Tonight.... what could be more fun for a pseudo intellectual pompous gasbag like Steve.

texasdave
03-09-2007, 06:23 PM
Phillips is booing the Prodigal Son, one of the classic stories in all literature.

What an idiot.

I am not sure what you mean by that. He may be booing the father, but he states several times in the article that he is pulling for Hamilton and wants him to make it.

I sorta see Phillips' point. Hamilton is very likely taking a roster spot from either Norris Hopper or Chris Denorfia. Hopper turns 28 this month. Denorfia turns 27 in July. Their careers are pretty much on the line this season. I don't think the window for either of them is that long. 27 or 28 may be young in alot of professions, but baseball is not one of them. For either of them to harbor some resentment at being sent back to the minors to make room for Josh Hamilton would be understandable.

gm
03-09-2007, 07:02 PM
Phillips is booing the Prodigal Son, one of the classic stories in all literature.

What an idiot.

I was thinking the same thing...remember that "other brother" who wasn't happy that the prodigal son got all the good stuff after he came home from blowing his inheritance money? "Other brother" now has a name...

RedsBaron
03-09-2007, 07:03 PM
Hamilton is very likely taking a roster spot from either Norris Hopper or Chris Denorfia. Hopper turns 28 this month. Denorfia turns 27 in July. Their careers are pretty much on the line this season. I don't think the window for either of them is that long. 27 or 28 may be young in alot of professions, but baseball is not one of them. For either of them to harbor some resentment at being sent back to the minors to make room for Josh Hamilton would be understandable.

Yeah, it's a darn shame that the Reds don't hand over thirdbase to Brandon Larson again this spring. True, he was a .179 hitter in four prior major league seasons, but he tried really hard and paid more dues than Edwin Encaracion. He's older as well.

texasdave
03-09-2007, 07:12 PM
Yeah, it's a darn shame that the Reds don't hand over thirdbase to Brandon Larson again this spring. True, he was a .179 hitter in four prior major league seasons, but he tried really hard and paid more dues than Edwin Encaracion. He's older as well.

What a pitiful analogy.

Big Klu
03-09-2007, 07:30 PM
The fact that Steve Phillips doesn't approve of the Josh Hamilton situation/acquisition makes me feel a lot better about it!



Dear Mr. Failed GM Phillips:

Don't be giving me crap about hard work and getting a chance. Most people would have crumbled, and probably given up on their lives in Hamilton's situation. Suicide, murder, and many other things usually come from people battling addictions such as Hamilton did. I've never battled that, but I can promise you that Hamilton worked harder battling his demons and fighting his addiction than you ever worked in your life. You want to tell the minor leaguers to work hard and persevere and they can acheive thier goals, then this is the right story. He worked hard and overcame the toughest battle he will ever face, his own mind and body. Through all this, his talent never left, and he worked hard to get back into shape and to where he is now. You know what the minor league players with the right minds and attitudes will see? They will see how hard it is to overcome bad decisions made in your life, but Hamilton proves it is possible. Hamilton proves that life isn't all about baseball. In my book, Josh has worked harder than any prospect I know of, maybe not with baseball all the time, but in life. Life > Baseball.

Thanks

acredsfan,

Great comment, except for one thing: Hamilton has not worked to defeat his demons--he is still working to defeat them, and he never be able to stop the fight, if he wants to win it. It will be an ongoing lifelong war.

Caveat Emperor
03-09-2007, 09:17 PM
I sorta see Phillips' point. Hamilton is very likely taking a roster spot from either Norris Hopper or Chris Denorfia. Hopper turns 28 this month. Denorfia turns 27 in July. Their careers are pretty much on the line this season. I don't think the window for either of them is that long. 27 or 28 may be young in alot of professions, but baseball is not one of them. For either of them to harbor some resentment at being sent back to the minors to make room for Josh Hamilton would be understandable.

Kinda like being passed up for a promotion because the company decided to hire some hot-shot kid out of a big-name school and fast track him up the corporate ladder?

Nobody said life was fair -- I think you pretty much have to accept that simply working hard and waiting your turn isn't always a strategy that pans out.

westofyou
03-09-2007, 10:33 PM
Kinda like being passed up for a promotion because the company decided to hire some hot-shot kid out of a big-name school and fast track him up the corporate ladder?

Nobody said life was fair -- I think you pretty much have to accept that simply working hard and waiting your turn isn't always a strategy that pans out.

Every year 1100 or so players get drafted, out of that about 120 make it to the major leagues, out of that 120 about 40% of them log 4 years or more as a player.

The odds are already high and they get higher the older you get.

Trying to pin a broken dream on another player who is realizing that exact same dream seems petty and misplaced and probably not too rooted in the reality of the situation.

acredsfan
03-09-2007, 10:39 PM
The fact that Steve Phillips doesn't approve of the Josh Hamilton situation/acquisition makes me feel a lot better about it!




acredsfan,

Great comment, except for one thing: Hamilton has not worked to defeat his demons--he is still working to defeat them, and he never be able to stop the fight, if he wants to win it. It will be an ongoing lifelong war.I appreciate you correcting me. Its definitely something he will battle the rest of his life, and I surely wish him all the best. We should be thankful that we get to see this happening on our favorite team and we can become a witness to this amazing story. I was thinking how great it would be if this was made into a movie and we got to see our favorite team portrayed in it. Also that even though we are seeing just what will hopefully be his triumphs, we will feel like we were there to see it unfold. Maybe Steve is just a conservative guy, and maybe other GMs see it the same way, but this has got the potential of having a very big impact on the franchise, and really, we gave up nothing. This is the epitome of low risk/high reward.

RFS62
03-09-2007, 10:40 PM
Every year 1100 or so players get drafted, out of that about 120 make it to the major leagues, out of that 120 about 40% of them log 4 years or more as a player.

The odds are already high and they get higher the older you get.

Trying to pin a broken dream on another player who is realizing that exact same dream seems petty and misplaced and probably not too rooted in the reality of the situation.


Yep, and it's all about talent in the end.

You either have it and can display it, or you don't.

Hamilton won't get a free ride if he doesn't produce.

texasdave
03-09-2007, 11:28 PM
Kinda like being passed up for a promotion because the company decided to hire some hot-shot kid out of a big-name school and fast track him up the corporate ladder?

Nobody said life was fair -- I think you pretty much have to accept that simply working hard and waiting your turn isn't always a strategy that pans out.

There are some key differences here IMO. First of all, a ballplayer's window of opportunity is much smaller than in most professions. Secondly, a Chris Denorfia or a Norris Hopper can't simply put in his resignation and move to another company to try again like most people can. I understand that life isn't fair.

GOOCH
03-09-2007, 11:29 PM
I don't understand what the big deal is. The Reds selected him in the Rule V draft. Phillips seems to act like this means he gets to stay in the majors for a year without having to do anything. But that's not how it works! Just last year the Cardinals drafted Juan Mateo out of the Cubs' organization in the Rule V draft. He didn't perform particularly well in Spring Training, so he didn't make the team. And back to the Cubs he went. Sure, the Cards we're out the piddling half of his minor league salary, but that's peanuts. Teams waste a whole lot more on veterans with guaranteed contracts who bust in spring training than they ever will on a Rule V bust out.

So I don't see how this is a case of Hamilton getting something he didn't earn. The Rule V system exists so that good players don't get stuck in a deep minor league system for their entire careers...but rather get a chance to show what the've got for a team that wants to give them that chance. Hamilton will have to perform in order to make the roster, stay on the team, and play the full season. Otherwise, back he goes. Hamilton isn't guaranteed anything. Dumb article. D.GOOCH

Chip R
03-09-2007, 11:33 PM
GOOCH, didn't the Cards have a Rule 5 guy stick with them a few years ago? Maybe in 04? An infielder perhaps?

Patrick Bateman
03-09-2007, 11:37 PM
Hector Luna

Chip R
03-09-2007, 11:56 PM
Hector Luna


That's it. Didn't seem to hurt the Cards much carrying Luna on their roster.

Col_ IN Reds fan
03-10-2007, 12:28 AM
Does he mention what a low risk chance this was for the Reds? Where is the mistake? Very bad article.

Cedric
03-10-2007, 01:29 AM
Wouldn't baseball be such a great game if it was nothing but goody goody boys and goody goody fans?

This is the greatest game on the earth because of the individual nature of a team sport. Everyone has a story and the best one's aren't some altar boy stereotype.

GAC
03-10-2007, 04:38 AM
Second paragraph it was mentioned.

Phillips does bring up an interesting point about how other minor leaguers will react. IMO, that's part of the business, though.

Exactly. And competition among players is a good thing. As it was already mentioned - this is how the Rule V Draft dictates it. It states he must be carried on the roster. So it's giving him the "shot" so to speak. But Hamilton still has prove himself and earn it. It's not gonna simply be handed to him.

And I disagree with Phillip's contention that this situation may rub those in the Red's minors the wrong way. He's making much ado about nothing IMHO.

It is a story of redemption, and I'm rootin' for the kid. And not that he simply makes it back into baseball, but more importantly, gets his life back together.

Put oneself in Josh's shoes right now - there is a lot of pressure on him presently to succeed. He's basically standing at the plate with a "full count", meaning he probably sees this as his last opportunity.

And the kid does have talent. The question is - can he put it all back together again?

GAC
03-10-2007, 04:41 AM
ESPN has given Phillips a chance to be on its national broadcasts without doing anything to earn it, which sends a message to current ESPN broadcasters and especially to aspiring young broadcasters, and which contradicts everything that ESPN claims to stand for. It sends the wrong message to all of the hardworking, dedicated young broadcasters who are paying the price to get to ESPN, not to mention that it sends the wrong message to Phillips. Maybe ESPN can spin the decsion to put Phillips on the air and try to justify it to young broadcasters, but I expect they will see through it and realize that if you have certain connections, even though you are a buffoon without any broadcasting talent you can get on the air before dedicated people who have put in the time learning their craft. Now I am rooting for Phillips to develope into a quality broadcaster, but this decision still sends the wrong message.

Post of the thread. it says it all. :thumbup:

RedsBaron
03-10-2007, 06:40 AM
Unlike most occupations, sports, especially baseball, can provide a somewhat objective measure of how well a person performed. We may "know" who are the best people in a chosen field, but most opinions regarding who is the best doctor or schoolteacher or boilermaker or engineer or truckdriver or lawyer are at best subjective. When I go home at the end of the day, nobody other than me usually has any idea as to how well I have performed that day, and even I probably only have a very general idea.
While the validity of certain statistics may be disputed, and while certain managers may make dumb decisions and play the wrong people, baseball leaves a relatively objective record as to how every player did. Yes, it is easier to hit .300 playing your home games in Denver than it is in LA, but we still know how each hitter did.
In a lot of occupations, just showing up on time every day, having a great attitude, being a team player, and working hard will be enough to keep you employed. Baseball is a harsher meritocracy. If everyday the scorecard shows that you went 2 for 5, or 1 for 2 with a triple, or 3 for 4, or even the occasional 0 for 4, you will likely have a job, even with a lousy and selfish attitude. If the scorecard shows you are hitting .179, after a while no matter how great a person you are and no matter how hard you work and no matter how much of a team player you are and no matter how many dues you have paid----you're gone.
I don't know if I would want Topps to put out "lawyer cards" every spring, with all my prior "season's" and my career stats on the back--and I do not know what stats they would use if they did (or who would want the cards). Baseball is tough---a player who fails, fails out there in the open, and a record of every failing is readily available---and when a player fails, he may expect to hear a chorus of boos and worse.
I am rooting for Hamilton, I think the Reds made a great move in signing him, and I think the assertion that career minor leaguers in the Reds organization should be upset by his signing is silly, but in the end, it will all come down to how he performs. If he keeps hitting, he will have a job. If he doesn't hit, he will be gone. That is how it should be.

RFS62
03-10-2007, 07:20 AM
RedsBaron, you're en fuego.

:beerme:

GOOCH
03-10-2007, 08:25 AM
GOOCH, didn't the Cards have a Rule 5 guy stick with them a few years ago? Maybe in 04? An infielder perhaps?

Hector Luna. A Rule V pick from the Indians. Who we traded back to them for Ronnie Belliard. Strange. ;) D.GOOCH

GOOCH
03-10-2007, 08:32 AM
Exactly. And competition among players is a good thing. As it was already mentioned - this is how the Rule V Draft dictates it. It states he must be carried on the roster. So it's giving him the "shot" so to speak. But Hamilton still has prove himself and earn it. It's not gonna simply be handed to him.

And I disagree with Phillip's contention that this situation may rub those in the Red's minors the wrong way. He's making much ado about nothing IMHO.


For me, the reason I think his contention is nonsense is because that's how the Rule V Draft works. Why would other minor leaguers be hacked because a guy got selected in the Rule V draft? Do we hear about fabulous rookies with amazing first seasons holding it against their teams when they don't get super-2 or arby-eligible type contracts? No. That's how the system works. Baseball is FULL of non-performance related compensation. It is chock full of seniority-type rules, due to the strength of its Players Union and the fact these rules were mostly established in the 60's and 70's, when labor was a much more powerful force than it is now. Thus you can't tie incentives to performance for players (how dumb is that!), only innings pitched. The closest you can get to incentivizing is a bonus for an award.

And Rule V was instituted to *help* minor leaguers get to the show. I'm sure those fellas down on the farm see a Rule V'r make it and think to themselves 'maybe that'll be me in a couple of years.' Hamilton didn't get favorable treatment. He has been treated like any and every player to go in the Rule V since it was instituted. Phillips is just full of it. D.GOOCH

Krusty
03-10-2007, 09:50 AM
I think Steve Phillips should be one of the candidates for the "Just Shut Up" award that ESPN's Mike & Mike radio show does on Tuesdays.

Caveat Emperor
03-10-2007, 03:35 PM
I don't know if I would want Topps to put out "lawyer cards" every spring, with all my prior "season's" and my career stats on the back--and I do not know what stats they would use if they did (or who would want the cards).

Trial Wins
Trial Losses

Objections Sustained %
Sidebar Discussions Won

OPS (Objections Sustained % plus Sidebar Discussions Won)

:evil:

Patrick Bateman
03-10-2007, 03:44 PM
I find it strange that this is the first time he's ever complained about the Rule 5 draft.

I believe there have been a number of players selected previously , some even this year.

Home come the Hamilton selction has caused such a stir? Hasn't the Rule 5 draft sent the wrong message since it's conception?

Make no mistake this is all about Hamilton not ending up with an East coast team (or the Cubs) and nothing about "sending the wrong message".

dsmith421
03-11-2007, 04:04 PM
What an utterly moronic article. I hope Steve Phillips falls in a well.

Matt700wlw
03-11-2007, 04:20 PM
Steve Phillips, looking pretty stupid, as of March 11th, 2007.

pedro
03-11-2007, 05:36 PM
I find it strange that this is the first time he's ever complained about the Rule 5 draft.

I believe there have been a number of players selected previously , some even this year.

Home come the Hamilton selction has caused such a stir? Hasn't the Rule 5 draft sent the wrong message since it's conception?

Make no mistake this is all about Hamilton not ending up with an East coast team (or the Cubs) and nothing about "sending the wrong message".

The point, as daft as it may be, isn't the rule 5 draft, it's that Hamilton hasn't "put in his dues". If Hamilton had played the last 4 years in the minors Phillips wouldn't feel the way he does. Plenty of other rule 5 picks in the past have "put in their dues" in the minors so they wouldn't be targets for such criticism.

westofyou
03-11-2007, 05:37 PM
The point, as daft as it may be, isn't the rule 5 draft, it's that Hamilton hasn't "put in his dues". If Hamilton had played the last 4 years in the minors Phillips wouldn't feel the way he does. Plenty of other rule 5 picks in the past have "put in their dues" in the minors so they wouldn't be targets for such criticism.

Roy Hobbs didn't pay his dues.

pedro
03-11-2007, 05:39 PM
Roy Hobbs didn't pay his dues.

neither did calvin

http://www.rayb.com/cartoons/calvin.jpg

KronoRed
03-11-2007, 05:51 PM
No slamming Hobbs, he carried Calvin for years

GAC
03-11-2007, 08:41 PM
Good article by Stark on Hamilton....

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2007/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2792609

Jaycint
03-12-2007, 11:57 AM
What an utterly moronic article. I hope Steve Phillips falls in a well.

:laugh:

TRF
03-12-2007, 12:15 PM
Hamilton is not the typical Rule V guy. Burton, who the Reds selected with their pick is. Phillips has a point, kind of, but he certainly articulated it poorly. had Hamilton stayed with the DRays, and played in ST like he is now, he might have gotten his big league opportunity this year. Or he might have tanked in ST as memories of his failings as a human being surrounded him. Josh Hamilton desperately needed a change of scenery. Had the Cubs selected him and kept him it would have been the right thing for him as a player and a person. That is the spirit of Rule V... a fresh start. What Phillips is saying, I think, is that the organization (TB) did not bury Josh, Josh buried Josh. And now that he's on the never ending road to recovery, a team is almost handing him a spot on a 25 man roster. I can see a less enlightened person, say a guy in the situation of Deno or Hopper being a little ticked at this. I'm not saying they are, but I could understand if they were.

I've said it all along. Like WMP, there are no comps for Hamilton. His case is as unique as they come, and so far it's been damn fun to watch.

cincinnati chili
03-15-2007, 11:14 PM
I don't agree with Phillips' point, but I think most of you are being too hard on him. When I saw the headline, I thought this would be much more nasty in tone than it was. Chip is right. He has a point. It's not that compelling to me. But it's a point.

I do agree that an organization must consider the message that it sends to its minor leaguers. But if Narron has convinced Krivisky that he has a legit shot at rehabilitating this high-upside kid, the Reds have to take it. There's a history here with Hamilton and Narron.

GMs do much, much more heartless things to their rank and file minor leaguers than spend Rule V picks on drug addicts, thereby preventing the Norris Hoppers of the world from making the opening day roster. If the minor leaguers can't deal with that, then they're too thin skinned to deal with the business of baseball.

pedro
03-15-2007, 11:18 PM
I don't agree with Phillips' point, but I think most of you are being too hard on him. When I saw the headline, I thought this would be much more nasty in tone than it was. Chip is right. He has a point. It's not that compelling to me. But it's a point.

I do agree that an organization must consider the message that it sends to its minor leaguers. But if Narron has convinced Krivisky that he has a legit shot at rehabilitating this high-upside kid, the Reds have to take it. There's a history here with Hamilton and Narron.

GMs do much, much more heartless things to their rank and file minor leaguers than spend Rule V picks on drug addicts, thereby preventing the Norris Hoppers of the world from making the opening day roster. If the minor leaguers can't deal with that, then they're too thin skinned to deal with the business of baseball.

From what I've read Krivsky was thinking about getting Hamilton prior to finding out that Narron knew him.

Moosie52
03-16-2007, 07:30 AM
If Hamilton keeps up his torrid hitting, I don't see how anybody in the Reds system could dis him or the Reds. It's an inspirational story. I'd think the minor leaguers would see it as hope for anyone, especially themselves.

knuckler
03-16-2007, 09:47 AM
Using Phillips' logic, GM's shouldn't take options into consideration when they construct 25-man rosters as they interfere with selecting the most "deserving". But of course they do, they should, and I have no doubt even Phillips took roster considerations into account when he was a GM.

Caveat Emperor
03-16-2007, 02:10 PM
Of course, the easy way to solve bad player attitudes about call-ups and roster manufacturing is to do exactly what the Cincinnati Reds (Local 253) has done for the bullpen: implement a seniority system for handing out positions.

:evil: