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Lockdwn11
03-11-2007, 05:35 PM
on his own merit? IMHO he has. This guy is showing no signs of a long layoff and has been one of our better players all spring.The guy still has it and looks to make us a better team this year if he is on the 25 man roster.

Matt700wlw
03-11-2007, 05:36 PM
Unless he completely falls apart, he's a lock.

How can he not be?

pedro
03-11-2007, 05:39 PM
Unless he completely falls apart, he's a lock.

How can he not be?


that's my take too. he'd have to go all Stanley Wilson to get cut at this point.

jmac
03-11-2007, 05:41 PM
If jr isnt ready....I can see Dunn LF Freel CF Hammer RF vs Cubs opening day.

OnBaseMachine
03-11-2007, 05:41 PM
Absolutely. Unlike Wily Mo a few years ago when he had to stay on the 25-man roster and was basically just a waste, Hamilton can and will be an asset to the team. His power off the bench and defense will be a big plus. And the way things are going, Hamilton may push for a starting job.

Lockdwn11
03-11-2007, 05:43 PM
I know he will be on the 25 man I think he was going to be on the team from the start. What I was asking is if you guys think he has won his spot by his play and not just because he is a rule 5 pick up.

justincredible
03-11-2007, 05:46 PM
I know he will be on the 25 man I think he was going to be on the team from the start. What I was asking is if you guys think he has won his spot by his play and not just because he is a rule 5 pick up.

Of course. If he had came out this spring and totally bombed then he wouldn't have made the team. His play has been outstanding so there is no doubt in my mind he has won and deserves a spot on the 25-man. I'd love it if he got the chance to start on Opening Day.:beerme:

dougdirt
03-11-2007, 05:55 PM
Absolutely. Unlike Wily Mo a few years ago when he had to stay on the 25-man roster and was basically just a waste, Hamilton can and will be an asset to the team. His power off the bench and defense will be a big plus. And the way things are going, Hamilton may push for a starting job.

Lets not forget, in 2003 when Wily had to be on the 25 man, he went .297/.366/.547 in 64 ST at bats. He probably 'earned' his spot with those numbers had he been a few years older and not had been forced onto the roster regardless.

dougdirt
03-11-2007, 05:58 PM
Oh, but let me add that yes, I think Hamilton deserves to make this team based on his performance.

edabbs44
03-11-2007, 06:01 PM
Oh, but let me add that yes, I think Hamilton deserves to make this team based on his performance.

I think Hamilton is deserving...but the real test will be if he isn't playing well when it counts. Does he still take up a roster spot?

dougdirt
03-11-2007, 06:03 PM
I think Hamilton is deserving...but the real test will be if he isn't playing well when it counts. Does he still take up a roster spot?

On a team that will carry Juan Castro for his defense, without a doubt. Once every 10 years will you have a guy slump in the field, so odds are he can still be valuable as a defender and pinch runner off the bench and he honestly couldnt hit much worse than Castro is expected to.

edabbs44
03-11-2007, 06:06 PM
On a team that will carry Juan Castro for his defense, without a doubt. Once every 10 years will you have a guy slump in the field, so odds are he can still be valuable as a defender and pinch runner off the bench and he honestly couldnt hit much worse than Castro is expected to.

If they gave Conine and Castro their walking papers, then I would be much happier. But when you know that Castro is already on your bench and Hamilton is hitting .202 well into May, for example, what is their move then?

What if they are in the race?

Always Red
03-11-2007, 06:09 PM
I think Hamilton's made it, and I think he has earned it. I was very skeptical coming into ST, but am quickly becoming a true believer. I'm also one who believed Denorfia has not gotten a true shot at a job that I felt like he deserved and that he could do well.

I looked at the ST stats (yes, I know, spring training stats mean nothing- except if you're trying to win a job, make a team, show that you're no longer hurt or that you can indeed either hit major league pitching, or get out major league hitters. In other words, the outcome of ST games mean nothing, but your performance in ST often means a great deal unless you are a proven vet.) prior to posting here, and noticed that the men whom have received the most plate appearances are 4 outfielders in the mix to make the team, and their names are not Freel, Griffey or Dunn.

Hamilton has received extensive PT and at-bats, but Deno has inexplicably played even more. Deno should be playing with an added sense of urgency, because by all accounts, both Josh Hamilton and Bubba Crosby have outplayed him. Even the Gil person has played well, in spots, and he has received the 4th most AB's.

I think Denorfia's trying out, and there is a distinct possibility that he will not make this team. Denorfia has nothing left to prove in AAA. If I'm WK, I'd trade Freel, who probably has the most value, as I am not of the opinion that Ryan can be a full time player. But that's a different topic.

I read the Johnny Narron story with interest this morning in the Enquirer, and saw that he had turned down a job in another organization in order to be with the Reds as "video coordinator" and Hamilton's personal "coach" this year. That's when I realized that the FO knew what they had in Hamilton, are not totally surprised by what he has shown this spring, and probably have expected him to stick with the team all along, at least for the start of the year.

biggergipper
03-11-2007, 06:46 PM
I don't know that I necessarily want Freel to get traded, however, if this spring is any indication of Hamilton's skills (I don't want to read too much into spring training), then I hope Freel returns to the super utility role and Hamilton starts in CF. If Hamilton could put up decent numbers as a starter I think it strengthens the team as Freel is great playing around the field and as a sub.

George Anderson
03-11-2007, 06:52 PM
I think Hamilton is deserving...but the real test will be if he isn't playing well when it counts. Does he still take up a roster spot?

I may be wrong but my understanding is Hamilton as a rule 5 player has to stay on the active 25 man roster the entire year or he will be sent back to Tampa Bay. The Reds do have the option of working out a trade with TB so they will have exclusive rights to him and then can send him down if need be. Am I right about this??

KronoRed
03-11-2007, 06:53 PM
At Freel's age I'd ship him out as well, super guys like him have a tendency to crash just as fast as they arrive, Deno could just as good a job in the OF and Freel in the IF had always been scary ;)

As for the topic..Hamilton had the team made before ST, his play (so far) has just made him to be useful.

edabbs44
03-11-2007, 07:07 PM
At Freel's age I'd ship him out as well, super guys like him have a tendency to crash just as fast as they arrive, Deno could just as good a job in the OF and Freel in the IF had always been scary ;)

As for the topic..Hamilton had the team made before ST, his play (so far) has just made him to be useful.

Great post...

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/AAGI180~Joe-McEwing-2004-Studio-Plus-Photofile-Posters.jpg

Spitball
03-11-2007, 07:31 PM
At Freel's age I'd ship him out as well, super guys like him have a tendency to crash just as fast as they arrive...


This is an opinion and not a fact, obviously, but I don't know if this is even a valid statement. There are lots of players who crash just as fast as they arrive. Freel like players Rex Hudler (37) and Tony Phillips (40) played until they were pretty old.

I'm not against trading Freel for pitching, but I don't really believe there is evidence he is about to crash...unless it is into a fence.

Spitball
03-11-2007, 07:33 PM
Oh, and I believe Hamilton has made the team on the merit of his play. I just hope the demons that hounded Steve Howe leave him alone.

Reds1
03-12-2007, 01:06 AM
I'd say after hitting 3-3 today he is now batting .538 (14-for-26) with one home run and four RBIs this spring. I think he's only KO 3 times! Probably the MVP of spring training if they ever gave such a stupid award. :) Just having fun! In my head what I"ve seen from this guy who dives in the OF and has a cannon he may not just make the team, but is there a starting spot for him!

MartyFan
03-12-2007, 01:27 AM
I believe he makes the roster and also that he will be a starter.

Reds1
03-12-2007, 01:32 AM
I believe he makes the roster and also that he will be a starter.

Where do you think he will start? I don't see him starting unless Griffey or freel start the season hurt which is a high prob., but I just wanted to see if you thought he would beat Freel out! Hey, I"m not saying anything impossible. Night

Caveat Emperor
03-12-2007, 01:33 AM
In a word: Yes.

The real trick will be finding him enough ABs during the season in order to keep his skills from rotting on the bench once the season starts.

He's looked good in early spring, but it'll be a completely different ballgame once everyone gets into midseason form. I think he'll be lucky to hit .225 as a reserve outfielder / getaway day starter. However, hitting .225 and playing good defense will at least justify his bench spot and the important thing is getting his rights outright so that he can be sent to AAA next year to work on his game.

MartyFan
03-12-2007, 01:33 AM
I think it will be because of injury...but I think Wayne is already on the phone with a package of middle relief and an OF for _______.

Topcat
03-12-2007, 01:49 AM
If they gave Conine and Castro their walking papers, then I would be much happier. But when you know that Castro is already on your bench and Hamilton is hitting .202 well into May, for example, what is their move then?

What if they are in the race?

You eat Castro's contract if you can't get rid of him also you can deal Connine for sure for a nothing a prospect I am sure.

Topcat
03-12-2007, 02:13 AM
I also would like to add that some time dumpster diving produces productive players lol. We hit ON Ross and Phillips and now Hamilton:D > Sure your going to end up with garbage but heck the Red's are turning NON 40 roster guys and designated players into one hell of a drat system:beerme:

New Fever
03-12-2007, 02:29 AM
I know that Hamilton hasn't played in a real game yet, but as a player around the league (free agent to be ) you have to be pretty impressed by what the Reds are doing. Three years ago the only free agent we could pick up was Eric Milton. Now if we through some big bucks to a guy like Carlos Zambrano he would have to be pretty tempted by it. The orginization has come pretty far in the last couple of years.

noskill27
03-12-2007, 02:49 AM
I think I'll wait until Spring Training is over or close to being over to offer an opinion.

That said, it seems like Narron decided Hamilton made the team the second the Reds got him.

Lockdwn11
03-12-2007, 12:08 PM
In a word: Yes.



He's looked good in early spring, but it'll be a completely different ballgame once everyone gets into midseason form. I think he'll be lucky to hit .225 as a reserve outfielder / getaway day starter. However, hitting .225 and playing good defense will at least justify his bench spot and the important thing is getting his rights outright so that he can be sent to AAA next year to work on his game.

I agree to a point.I understand that it is only ST and the pitching is going to get better once the game start counting but who's to say that Josh Hamilton isn't only going to get better also. I mean the guy has sat out 4 year and has come back only to hit over 500 this spring.I don't know if we have ever seen a player like this but from what I have seen sofar the sky is the limit for this kid..I don't think he is going to hit 500 all year and he may only hit 225 but the guy hasn't show me that he can't hit major league pitching either.

Triples
03-12-2007, 12:17 PM
There have been a lot of comments about Hamiltion (in this thread and others) in the vein of "I'm going to wait until spring training is over before I pass judement on him".... Aren't Hamiltion's stats as "real" as anyone elses. I doubt the pitchers giving Hamilton a break because he's the comeback kid; just as I suspect they're not throwing their best stuff at Deno. Now, I understand that spring training is just that, and you really can't make long term judgements on performance based just on spring training but Hamiltion is hitting .538 as compared, for example, to Deno at .179 and I don't hear any one saying I'm going to wait till the end of spring training to decide about Deno (except maybe Narron and Krivsky). Granted, Deno has a track record and Hamiltion doesn't but I just don't see any reason why Hamilton should be clicking along at a .500 clip if he doesn't have the ability. Will he hit .300+ during the regular season? Time will tell. But I would think most folks would be happy with anything above .260.

Team Clark
03-12-2007, 01:25 PM
There have been a lot of comments about Hamiltion (in this thread and others) in the vein of "I'm going to wait until spring training is over before I pass judement on him".... Aren't Hamiltion's stats as "real" as anyone elses. I doubt the pitchers giving Hamilton a break because he's the comeback kid; just as I suspect they're not throwing their best stuff at Deno. Now, I understand that spring training is just that, and you really can't make long term judgements on performance based just on spring training but Hamiltion is hitting .538 as compared, for example, to Deno at .179 and I don't hear any one saying I'm going to wait till the end of spring training to decide about Deno (except maybe Narron and Krivsky). Granted, Deno has a track record and Hamiltion doesn't but I just don't see any reason why Hamilton should be clicking along at a .500 clip if he doesn't have the ability. Will he hit .300+ during the regular season? Time will tell. But I would think most folks would be happy with anything above .260.

Great post. I am a Huge Deno fan but Hamilton has me turning my head. The thing that is impressing me is that he is not just hitting all fastballs. ST is well underway and those first 4-5 games where pitchers typically just "throw it up there" are gone. Hamilton is making adjustments, staying back and having really good at bats. That's not a fluke. Those things are actually taking place. I do reserve a little judgment based on the "talent" he is facing on daily basis. He's done well and I hope he continues to improve. The more I read the more I like his ceiling. Top 3 arm. Top flight fielder. Surprising speed. Count me in.

Where does he play? Great question. I'd rather be faced with that question than being forced to make a trade to fill a spot. If Deno has to go to AAA and Hamilton makes the team then I say start Hamilton in CF. If Griff is not available to start the season then it's Deno in CF and Hamilton in RF. Talk about covering some ground with two really good arms. Cuts down a lot of 1st to 3rd opportunities. Let's face it...also cuts down on balls in the gap and to the wall that Griff has been struggling to get too.

One more thought. If Hamilton hits .235 in April, I don't sit him. Yeah I know I must be crazy BUT this guy has to have time to adjust to the pressure and get around the league a bit. I don't think you can do that from the bench. He has all the physical tools to make up for lost time. He's proven that to me already. You hit .500 + off Professional pitching after a 3 YEAR layoff. Ok, you hooked me. Now let's see what else you can do.

edabbs44
03-12-2007, 01:52 PM
Where does he play? Great question. I'd rather be faced with that question than being forced to make a trade to fill a spot. If Deno has to go to AAA and Hamilton makes the team then I say start Hamilton in CF. If Griff is not available to start the season then it's Deno in CF and Hamilton in RF. Talk about covering some ground with two really good arms. Cuts down a lot of 1st to 3rd opportunities. Let's face it...also cuts down on balls in the gap and to the wall that Griff has been struggling to get too.

I guess you don't see Freel as a starter in the OF? Just asking...I would rather see him in his super sub role as well.

Team Clark
03-12-2007, 02:27 PM
I guess you don't see Freel as a starter in the OF? Just asking...I would rather see him in his super sub role as well.

I love Ryan Freel but I can't see him starting every day. I just don't think he's built for that. He's a super sub and with the injury history of the Reds he's as valuable as they come. If Deno were to tank completely and Freel were HOT at the end of ST, I would consider starting Freel in the OF. Great thing about Baseball is the endless possibilities. :thumbup:

bucksfan2
03-12-2007, 02:42 PM
I guess you don't see Freel as a starter in the OF? Just asking...I would rather see him in his super sub role as well.

I see freel as the utility guy who gives Phillips, EE, Griffey, RF a break from time to time. He will probably get the starting nod over both Hamilton and Deno because he is a leadoff hitter. But he is the way I look at him. You know what you are going to get with Freel, both the good and bad. Hes going to make some great playes but he is also going to make some very bad decisions.

Deno is a guy who you really dont know what to expect. He hasn't been given a full chance to show what he can do. What I see him as is a more controlled, better all around player than Freel. He doesn't have quite the speed that Freel has but he is a more natural baseball player. If I had to choose I would choose Deno over Freel every day of the week.

Where Deno is a natural baseball player, Hamilton may just be The Natural. Just following box scores Hamilton is doing better than anyone expected. I dont care if he is facing AA or AAA pitching. If someone hits over .500 in AA or AAA they are having one heck of a season. He seems to do everything well and from all reports just loves to play the game. Hamilton however is a total unknown. The guy in all probability could have a 30 HR 100 RBI season but also could have a 10 HR 40 RBI season. In my opinion he has the talent just needs a level where he can showcase that talent. His upside is way more than what Freel and Deno have. Even if he only lives up to half of his potential he probably is a better player than either. I roll the dice with hamilton. Give him a few months of playing every day and see how he progresses.

George Anderson
03-12-2007, 04:09 PM
In a word: Yes.

The real trick will be finding him enough ABs during the season in order to keep his skills from rotting on the bench once the season starts.

He's looked good in early spring, but it'll be a completely different ballgame once everyone gets into midseason form. I think he'll be lucky to hit .225 as a reserve outfielder / getaway day starter. However, hitting .225 and playing good defense will at least justify his bench spot and the important thing is getting his rights outright so that he can be sent to AAA next year to work on his game.

I dont think finding AB's for Hamilton will be that hard as long he shows he can handle MLB pitching. Even if Denorfia or Freel start over Hamilton, its rare for Griffey to go thru a season without some type of injury . Between potentially starting in the outfield or replacing Griffey when and if he gets hurt and filling in as a defensive replacement, I think Hamilton will get to see several AB's.

MartyFan
03-12-2007, 04:39 PM
Is it just me or does the potential of a radical change in the OF seem to be a possibility? I honestly can see Freel getting dealt and I do not discount the potential of Junior getting dealt (to a team of his choice) to play both Deno and Hamilton with Conine and Gil as backups...don't forget that Gil is able to play the IF too...bad avg. decent power and a cannon for an arm.

So, go ahead, tell me...am I NUTS?

George Anderson
03-12-2007, 04:45 PM
Is it just me or does the potential of a radical change in the OF seem to be a possibility? I honestly can see Freel getting dealt and I do not discount the potential of Junior getting dealt (to a team of his choice) to play both Deno and Hamilton with Conine and Gil as backups...don't forget that Gil is able to play the IF too...bad avg. decent power and a cannon for an arm.

So, go ahead, tell me...am I NUTS?

With Wayne, anything is possible!!!!

MartyFan
03-12-2007, 04:54 PM
I know Special K didn't do too much in the offseason...but I can envision him doing some things this spring and the first part of the season to shake things up.

Team Clark
03-12-2007, 05:03 PM
There are always teams looking to deal at the end of ST. Injuries arise and quite frankly not every team is deep at every position. I would hate to see Freel get dealt but he does have a lot of value, IMO.

cacollinsmba
03-12-2007, 05:38 PM
Is it just me or does the potential of a radical change in the OF seem to be a possibility? I honestly can see Freel getting dealt and I do not discount the potential of Junior getting dealt (to a team of his choice) to play both Deno and Hamilton with Conine and Gil as backups...don't forget that Gil is able to play the IF too...bad avg. decent power and a cannon for an arm.

So, go ahead, tell me...am I NUTS?

I don't think you're nuts. I tend to agree with you.

I think my angle on it is, if you have an OF of Dunn, Hamilton and Griffey, then who is going to hit leadoff on this team? Phillips struggled in that role last year. That leads me to believe that unless Hamilton plays great, Denorfia or Freel need to be in the lineup regularly.

This is putting the cart before the horse, obviously. But if Hamilton does in fact both make the team AND start, then the guys who are the best candidates to lead off (Freel/Denorfia) do not start.

I think one issue that tends to not get addressed is the relationship between Kearns and Denorfia. Many fans lamented the fact that Kearns is no longer on the team. Many fans also, now that they have seen Denorfia play the 2nd half of last season, would like him to stay in the lineup. Kearns being traded gave Denorfia his spot on the team. But I don't think Denorfia will end up being the same type of hitter that Kearns is - a middle of the order guy.

That being said, we've seen what Denorfia does well - great defense, great speed, and the ability to hit for average out of, among other things, the leadoff spot. Hamilton, if many, many things go his way, could be a middle of the order hitter. So to me, I think that if I am a fan that laments the fact that Kearns is gone, I have to pull for Hamilton because I don't see any other OF that this team can bring on in the near future who will be able to put up Kearns-type numbers.

I see myself pulling for Hamilton even though I know that it will cost Denorfia a starting role, or perhaps even a reserve role. But at the same time I have to look at the hole in the middle of the lineup left by Kearns and hope that Hamilton is a guy that can replace it.

SunDeck
03-12-2007, 05:49 PM
I think my angle on it is, if you have an OF of Dunn, Hamilton and Griffey, then who is going to hit leadoff on this team?

See, this is why they should have held onto Womack. :eek:

Always Red
03-12-2007, 06:50 PM
I think my angle on it is, if you have an OF of Dunn, Hamilton and Griffey, then who is going to hit leadoff on this team?


It's clear, isn't it?...

Alex Gonzalez! :D:D

KronoRed
03-12-2007, 08:15 PM
See, this is why they should have held onto Womack. :eek:

He couldn't leadoff out of a paper bag ;)

It'll be Phillips.

mth123
03-12-2007, 09:36 PM
Just let Hamilton lead-off. He has plate discipline and speed.

TexRed
03-13-2007, 07:44 AM
Sorry, I just have trouble getting by all the tatoos.