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Benihana
03-12-2007, 01:28 PM
I like Ryan Freel, I really do. And I am not as sold on Chris Denorfia as most on this board. However, with the emergence of Josh Hamilton this spring, coupled with Freel's production and contract status, as well as the roster crunch that is victimizing Denorfia, there really is only one good solution:

Ryan Freel should be traded in the first decent deal that comes the Reds way.

With Griffey (hopefully) moving to RF, and Dunn firmly entrenched in LF, Josh Hamilton and Chris Denorfia should be platooning in CF, giving both a gradual introduction into what it is like to be an everyday player in the major leagues. If (and unfortunately when) Griffey gets injured, Hamilton can play RF with Denorfia in CF. Jeff Conine is a capable (obligatory) veteran backup to either one. Fortunately for the Reds, Ryan Freel probably has the most trade value of any outfielder on the roster not named Dunn, and thus could net the most in a trade. Given the fact that he is a FA after the season and now over the 30 mark, this trade becomes even easier. There are plenty of rumors around here (Chicago) that the Sox want Aaron Rowand back. Would they be willing to part with John Danks in order to get a similar player in Freel? As a Reds fan, I sure would.

redsupport
03-12-2007, 01:31 PM
hamilton has not proven a thing, yet

jojo
03-12-2007, 01:33 PM
However, with the emergence of Josh Hamilton this spring........

He's had 26 at bats in ST...


WOW is all I have to say.....

redsrule2500
03-12-2007, 01:35 PM
This thread is now officially called "The official stupid idea thread"

Let's release Arroyo and Harang, then trade EE, Phillips and Dunn for a prospect!

EDIT:
I want to apologize to Benihana - I'm sorry, I really didn't mean for it to be personal/offensive. I visit many message boards, and each one has a different 'tone' about it - other places that would have been fine/humerous, but I know RedsZone is more classy, and looking back it was dumb.

So, again, sorry...after the 50 points of negs I definitely realized it was probably wasn't 'acceptable' here, and I apologize.

redsmetz
03-12-2007, 01:38 PM
I wouldn't characterize this thread as stupid. I can't say that Hamilton is the real deal yet (it's looking good), I've felt all along that Freel was expendable and very likely the best one we have to trade - I think there are a number of teams who could use his diverse talents.

luvdozer
03-12-2007, 01:38 PM
I think that the situation with Denorfia and Hamilton doesnt really matter as much as you suggest - it makes your suggestion a little more palatable, but it isnt the driving force behind the idea.

I think that the issue is that the reds have a very productive guy who is just on the wrong side of 30 and who is in the last year of his contract. If the reds think they can re-sign him at a reasonable level then fine. But I suspect that the free agent value of Freel this coming off season will be higher than what the Reds should really be paying for him. Therefore, trading him now is probably a good idea.

The other part is that I dont think the reds should be lining things up for 2008 and 2009 - not to give up on this season before it starts, but 08 and 09 are when some very fine young players should be breaking out at the same time that Arroyo and Harang will still be in their prime.

However, if one decides that trading freel is the best decision, is spring training the best time to do it? what about mid season when contending teams have identified needs to be filled. Since freel can play just about anywhere, he could be an offensive upgrade for a large number of teams

Benihana
03-12-2007, 01:38 PM
This thread is now officially called "The official stupid idea thread"

Let's release Arroyo and Harang, then trade EE, Phillips and Dunn for a prospect!

First of all, explain how any of this relates to anything. And before you call it a "stupid idea", I think there are PLENTY of people on this board that would agree with me. I would be real careful with the name calling my friend.

I stand by what I said. I think a platoon of Denorfia and Hamilton would be just as effective as Freel, especially if we could acquire a young pitcher with real upside in the process.

redsrule2500
03-12-2007, 01:42 PM
First of all, explain how any of this relates to anything. And before you call it a "stupid idea", I think there are PLENTY of people on this board that would agree with me. I would be real careful with the name calling my friend.

I stand by what I said. I think a platoon of Denorfia and Hamilton would be just as effective as Freel, especially if we could acquire a young pitcher with real upside in the process.


I didn't call you a name.

Secondly, Freel brings more than just his stats to play. He's a fan favorite, and it'd be stupid to trade him. I said this before the Casey trade, and I'm sticking to it again with Ryan Freel. Trading Freel would be a huge mistake.

pedro
03-12-2007, 01:43 PM
Freel got pulled from today's game after his 1st ab. Maybe something is in the works?

Kc61
03-12-2007, 01:50 PM
The argument for trading Freel is that, given his style of play, he will break down at an early age. Not a good gamble to re-sign, get what you can now.

The argument against trading Freel is that the Reds are borderline .500 team and you don't trade one of your most valuable players. You don't worry too much about his position, he is a very good player, and a sparkplug. Given his versatility, he will get plenty of ABs.

I would trade any guy for the right return. But if you lose Freel, you weaken the team absent a very solid major league return.

As for Danks, I don't know anything about him. But you need major league players to field a good team, not only prospects for the future.

dougdirt
03-12-2007, 01:50 PM
Freel got pulled from today's game after his 1st ab. Maybe something is in the works?

I hope. I like Freel, but not as a starter. He also would bring the most in value out of our outfield log jam that would be readily replacable. Honestly you would get more for Dunn, but you cant replace that in the line up. You can replace Freel.

KronoRed
03-12-2007, 01:55 PM
If the plan is to keep Freel as a super sub then trading him is the right move, it would be risky because he's the only real "leadoff" hitter on the team.

Sadly I think the Reds will do nothing and let Deno sit in AAA instead.

jojo
03-12-2007, 01:56 PM
Freel got pulled from today's game after his 1st ab. Maybe something is in the works?

Day to day with a tight right hammy.....

Chip R
03-12-2007, 01:57 PM
So what is Freel's value in trade?

edabbs44
03-12-2007, 02:01 PM
So what is Freel's value in trade?

Probably more than any potential drop in performance between he and Denorfia.

When you look at it, Freel's value has been somewhat diminished by the 2 year contract of Castro. Castro can play that super sub infield role that Freel has filled over the past few years. I'm not saying that he is an optimal player in that role, but he's here for 2 years, like it or not.

So Freel is now more of an OFer than ever before. The difference between him and Denorfia is not large, if any. So he makes an excellent trade chip. He and Deno are the Kearns/Pena issue of a few years ago. Pena turned into Arroyo. You never know what Freel could turn into. But I think it would be more along the lines of a younger guy...not someone as established as BA.

pedro
03-12-2007, 02:02 PM
Day to day with a tight right hammy.....


ahh...

KronoRed
03-12-2007, 02:04 PM
So what is Freel's value in trade?

Young prospect maybe? actual bullpenner who isn't over 30? ;)

Chip R
03-12-2007, 02:04 PM
You know, I don't think we have enough veterans in the bullpen. Maybe Wayne could trade him for some 40 year old reliever. ;)

edabbs44
03-12-2007, 02:08 PM
You know, I don't think we have enough veterans in the bullpen. Maybe Wayne could trade him for some 40 year old reliever. ;)

You can never have enough veteran presence.

Benihana
03-12-2007, 02:16 PM
I didn't call you a name.

Secondly, Freel brings more than just his stats to play. He's a fan favorite, and it'd be stupid to trade him. I said this before the Casey trade, and I'm sticking to it again with Ryan Freel. Trading Freel would be a huge mistake.

"Fan favorites" are highly overrated. Winning is what puts people in the seats. Make moves accordingly.

jojo
03-12-2007, 02:20 PM
You know, I don't think we have enough veterans in the bullpen. Maybe Wayne could trade him for some 40 year old reliever. ;)

Here's the thing about Freel:

He can lead off and plays at least league average defense at 2b, ss, LF,CF, and RF though he's probably slightly above league average defensively in most positions.

This means, even if he doesn't regularly start at any single position, his presence keeps guys like Gil off of the active roster and minimizes at bats for Castro, Conine and Hamilton etc.... Freel also provides insurance for 2b if Phillips goes down and gives Narron a ton of flexibility for inter league games played with a DH as well as making the bench much stronger on the days he doesn't start. To me, that's pretty valuable. I'd argue that there aren't many major leagers who could fit that description so while the Reds may be able to easily replace one of the roles that Freel fills on the roster, his impact on the roster would be tough to replace overall IMHO.

I'm not sure how 26 at bats by Hamilton during early spring training changes any of that and makes Freel expendable...

As for his trade value, I think Freel's skillset is a Moneyball special.... supersub is undervalued and not likely to fetch a ton in trade.

pedro
03-12-2007, 02:23 PM
Here's the thing about Freel:

He can lead off and plays at least league average defense at 2b, ss, LF,CF, and RF though he's probably slightly above league average defensively in most positions.

This means, even if he doesn't regularly start at any single position, his presence keeps guys like Gil off of the active roster and minimizes at bats for Castro, Conine and Hamilton etc.... Freel also provides insurance for 2b if Phillips goes down and gives Narron a ton of flexibility for inter league games played with a DH as well as making the bench much stronger on the days he doesn't start. To me, that's pretty valuable. I'd argue that there aren't many major leagers who could fit that description so while the Reds may be able to easily replace one of the roles that Freel fills on the roster, his impact on the roster would be tough to replace overall IMHO.

I'm not sure how 26 at bats by Hamilton during early spring training changes any of that and makes Freel expendable...

As for his trade value, I think Freel's skillset is a Moneyball special.... supersub is undervalued and not likely to fetch a ton in trade.

I think you mean 3B not SS. Anyway, I'm not convinced Freel plays league average D in the infield either. If he did I think he would have stuck at 2B prior to the Reds getting Phillips. He has some real problems throwing from third from what I've seen, although he OK with the glove.

KronoRed
03-12-2007, 02:26 PM
"Fan favorites" are highly overrated. Winning is what puts people in the seats. Make moves accordingly.

Agreed, Casey going ticked people off and they got over it, team would have been the same with or without him.

lollipopcurve
03-12-2007, 02:27 PM
I think you mean 3B not SS. Anyway, I'm not convinced Freel plays league average D in the infield either. If he did I think he would have stuck at 2B prior to the Reds getting Phillips. He has some real problems throwing from third from what I've seen, although he OK with the glove.

Agree. Freel does not play SS, and he's been pretty bad at 2B and 3B.

jojo
03-12-2007, 02:28 PM
I think you mean 3B not SS. Anyway, I'm not convinced Freel plays league average D in the infield either. If he did I think he would have stuck at 2B prior to the Reds getting Phillips. He has some real problems throwing from third from what I've seen, although he OK with the glove.


I did mean 3b....thank you.....

jojo
03-12-2007, 02:29 PM
Agree. Freel does not play SS, and he's been pretty bad at 2B and 3B.


How so?

Benihana
03-12-2007, 02:33 PM
Here's the thing about Freel:
his presence keeps guys like Gil off of the active roster and minimizes at bats for Castro, Conine and Hamilton etc....

I'm not sure how 26 at bats by Hamilton during early spring training changes any of that and makes Freel expendable...


Please tell me why minimizing at bats for a guy like Hamilton is guaranteed a good thing?

Say what you want about "26 at bats during spring training" and blah blah blah. I'm not about to give him the MVP either, but I do think Hamilton represents a real talent, and if given the shot I think you'll see a better offensive player than Freel. And its not his "emergence" alone that is making Freel expendable, its the presence of Denorfia coupled with the existence (like it or not) of Conine on the roster.

You can archive this prediction or do whatever you want with it, but Josh Hamilton will be a better Major Leaguer than Ryan Freel by September of 2008, and as many on this board have stated, I believe its the 2008/2009/2010 seasons we are really building for. Regardless of whether this prediction proves true or not, Freel won't be a Red by that time anyway by virtue of Free Agency if he's not traded beforehand.

flyer85
03-12-2007, 02:36 PM
Freel is useful as a Red. Would I trade him? Sure, it all depends on what someone else would be willing to give up.

Wheelhouse
03-12-2007, 02:37 PM
I'd trade Denorfia before Freel.

jojo
03-12-2007, 02:38 PM
Please tell me why minimizing at bats for a guy like Hamilton is guaranteed a good thing?

I can't guarantee anything but if the regular season started tomorrow, it would be nuts to have Hamilton penciled in as the starting CFer due to get 400 or maybe more at bats.... absolutely nuts.


Say what you want about "26 at bats during spring training" and blah blah blah. I'm not about to give him the MVP either, but I do think Hamilton represents a real talent, and if given the shot I think you'll see a better offensive player than Freel. And its not his "emergence" alone that is making Freel expendable, its the presence of Denorfia coupled with the existence (like it or not) of Conine on the roster.

You can archive this prediction or do whatever you want with it, but Josh Hamilton will be a better Major Leaguer than Ryan Freel by September of 2008, and as many on this board have stated, I believe its the 2008/2009/2010 seasons we are really building for. Regardless of whether this prediction proves true or not, Freel won't be a Red by that time anyway by virtue of Free Agency if he's not traded beforehand.


The Reds were 3 games from the playoffs last year and for all anyone knows, they might only be 3 games away from them again this year. I haven't a clue but really, i'd like to find out rather than just chucking the next year and a half... That's all I'm saying....Freel is more valuable to this roster than what he's likely to bring in return if traded... (i.e. he gives the Reds the best chance to win in '07)

Benihana
03-12-2007, 02:57 PM
I can't guarantee anything but if the regular season started tomorrow, it would be nuts to have Hamilton penciled in as the starting CFer due to get 400 or maybe more at bats.... absolutely nuts.




The Reds were 3 games from the playoffs last year and for all anyone knows, they might only be 3 games away from them again this year. I haven't a clue but really, i'd like to find out rather than just chucking the next year and a half... That's all I'm saying....Freel is more valuable to this roster than what he's likely to bring in return if traded... (i.e. he gives the Reds the best chance to win in '07)

If you think that trading FA-to-be Ryan Freel for quality young pitching, while giving his at bats to Denorfia and Hamilton in his place is "chucking the next year and a half" and "nuts...absolutely nuts", then I guess that is where we disagree.

redsupport
03-12-2007, 03:05 PM
remind me again what hamilton has accomplished

TRF
03-12-2007, 03:08 PM
remind me again what hamilton has accomplished

Well for starters, he's captured the imagination of baseball fans everywhere.

westofyou
03-12-2007, 03:08 PM
remind me again what hamilton has accomplished

He's on the Ten Dollar Bill.

redsupport
03-12-2007, 03:10 PM
good point he was also a great pitcher on the reds, Joey Hamilton

KronoRed
03-12-2007, 03:14 PM
He's on the Ten Dollar Bill.

Also killed in a dual

That's gotta count for something

edabbs44
03-12-2007, 03:14 PM
I can't guarantee anything but if the regular season started tomorrow, it would be nuts to have Hamilton penciled in as the starting CFer due to get 400 or maybe more at bats.... absolutely nuts.

The Reds were 3 games from the playoffs last year and for all anyone knows, they might only be 3 games away from them again this year. I haven't a clue but really, i'd like to find out rather than just chucking the next year and a half... That's all I'm saying....Freel is more valuable to this roster than what he's likely to bring in return if traded... (i.e. he gives the Reds the best chance to win in '07)

If Freel didn't get so many ABs during August (.220/.325/.275) and Sept/Oct (.208/.311/.302) then maybe Cincy would have made the playoffs last year.

redsupport
03-12-2007, 03:15 PM
how about griffeys second half performance do you think that may have had something to do with it

texasdave
03-12-2007, 03:25 PM
Red Bull ought to sponsor the Reds' Bullpen.....just sayin'

Johnny Footstool
03-12-2007, 03:35 PM
I'm an advocate of actively shopping Ryan Freel. There are plenty of teams out there who value scrappiness and have decent pitching talent in the minors. If Freel could bring a B-level relief prospect, I'd do the deal and not think twice about it.

Unfortunately, I think Freel's trade value is not high enough alone. He'd get more as part of a package deal.

westofyou
03-12-2007, 03:39 PM
Red Bull ought to sponsor the Reds' Bullpen.....just sayin'

Or Geritol.

jojo
03-12-2007, 03:56 PM
If you think that trading FA-to-be Ryan Freel for quality young pitching, while giving his at bats to Denorfia and Hamilton in his place is "chucking the next year and a half" and "nuts...absolutely nuts", then I guess that is where we disagree.

Your argument assumes a lot and really that's my point when arguing against that line of thinking. Effective roster formulation involves effective risk management IMHO. Its a big understatement to suggest that giving Hamilton a significant number of at bats this season is risky. Truthfully, I'm surprised by the number of people apparently willing to argue otherwise.

It's certainly not a foregone conclusion that Freel would bring *quality young pitching* in trade. Dunn can't even command *quality young pitching*. While "quality young pitching" means a lot of things to a lot of people (it's just the kind of platitude a politician would throw out there because well it can mean whatever the listener wants it to mean) I'd suggest it's very unlikely that Freel could net quality young pitching that is actually quality enough to make the trade worthwhile-especially when thinking in terms of the next year and a half.

You can't assume Hamilton will consistently provide quality at bats against major league pitching at this point. Truthfully, while I like Denorfia (I'm on record in many threads as advocating that Denorfia should be the starting centerfielder this season), he has a lot to prove as well.

The Reds control Freel for the next two years.

jojo
03-12-2007, 03:58 PM
If Freel didn't get so many ABs during August (.220/.325/.275) and Sept/Oct (.208/.311/.302) then maybe Cincy would have made the playoffs last year.


For the record, given their defensive abilities, i would've taken Freel over his last 220 ab of 2006 as opposed to Dunn and his last 220 ab.... I think your argument is kind of silly...

Team Clark
03-12-2007, 04:04 PM
This thread is now officially called "The official stupid idea thread"

Let's release Arroyo and Harang, then trade EE, Phillips and Dunn for a prospect!

Whattya think Wayne could get? :laugh:

luvdozer
03-12-2007, 04:05 PM
You can archive this prediction or do whatever you want with it, but Josh Hamilton will be a better Major Leaguer than Ryan Freel by September of 2008, and as many on this board have stated, I believe its the 2008/2009/2010 seasons we are really building for. Regardless of whether this prediction proves true or not, Freel won't be a Red by that time anyway by virtue of Free Agency if he's not traded beforehand.

Agreed

Even if Hamilton turns out to be a bust by September 2008, decisions in 2007 should be for the 2008-2010 timeframe and Freel simply wont be part of that scheme.

Strikes Out Looking
03-12-2007, 04:09 PM
Actually, I would trade Griffey for a bag of magic beans.

jimbo
03-12-2007, 04:10 PM
Agree. Freel does not play SS, and he's been pretty bad at 2B and 3B.

Hmmmm, I must disagree. I think Freel has played a pretty good second base whenever he's been put there. I always felt that if he got the chance to play there everyday, he could be one of the best defensive second baseman in the league. He'd also stay healthier playing 2B everyday as opposed to the outfield.

registerthis
03-12-2007, 04:13 PM
If you think that trading FA-to-be Ryan Freel for quality young pitching, while giving his at bats to Denorfia and Hamilton in his place is "chucking the next year and a half" and "nuts...absolutely nuts", then I guess that is where we disagree.

What is this "quality, young pitching" that Mr. Freel is likely to bring us? Do 30 year old utility guys typically generate that type of return? Wow, I had no idea.

TRF
03-12-2007, 04:33 PM
Freel can help a team needing a QUALITY leadoff hitter get into the playoffs. He's a spark plug. He can be a difference maker. He isn't the type to carry a team on his back, but he's the first guy that jumps on.

That said, he's worth a B+ pitching prospect at AA or lower.

PuffyPig
03-12-2007, 05:07 PM
Trading Freel because we are handing the job to Hamilton makes little sense at this stage. Hamiltom, while looking great, is still highly suspect.

Now, trading Freel for Danks always makes sense regardless of our OF.

edabbs44
03-12-2007, 05:17 PM
For the record, given their defensive abilities, i would've taken Freel over his last 220 ab of 2006 as opposed to Dunn and his last 220 ab.... I think your argument is kind of silly...

My argument wasn't really an argument more than an observation. You were saying that Freel may be the difference in making or missing the playoffs this season. I was just saying that he might have been the difference in that last year, but in a bad way. He was putrid down the stretch.

And I agree that he wasn't the only one who sucked in the 2nd half (i.e., Dunn), but Dunn is obviously more valuable to this team than Freel will ever be.

IF they could get good value for Freel they should be unloading him as Deno would lessen the blow of losing him. And if they could get value for Deno, he could go in Freel's place.

Matt700wlw
03-12-2007, 05:46 PM
Maybe Freel would be expendable at the All Star break, or next off season....but, as impressive as he's been and as excited I am about him, Hamilton needs some big league playing time first.

That's how I see it.

jojo
03-12-2007, 07:15 PM
My argument wasn't really an argument more than an observation. You were saying that Freel may be the difference in making or missing the playoffs this season. I was just saying that he might have been the difference in that last year, but in a bad way. He was putrid down the stretch.

And I agree that he wasn't the only one who sucked in the 2nd half (i.e., Dunn), but Dunn is obviously more valuable to this team than Freel will ever be.

Since you brought up '06, a case can be made that Freel was overall a more valuable player to the Reds in '06 than than Dunn was. It's certainly possible that the same could be said about the two in '07 after the season depending upon what position Freel primarily plays. Besides, at this point I don't think anything should be considered obvious where Dunn is concerned. I'm guessing a good deal of us redzoners have our fingers crossed concerning Dunn this season....


IF they could get good value for Freel they should be unloading him as Deno would lessen the blow of losing him. And if they could get value for Deno, he could go in Freel's place.

But Deno can't play the infield....

Spitball
03-12-2007, 07:16 PM
Unless Freel is packaged to bring a number three starter, I see no need to trade the guy. He provides a quality big league bat who can take over in case of injury at second, third, left, center, and right. He is a one man insurance policy. If he is traded, I'm not certain the Reds have anything near his quality to fill in at second or third. Also, he is also the team's best pinch run option. Unless the Reds are made a tremendous offer, he is too valuable on too many levels to simply unload.

jojo
03-12-2007, 07:20 PM
Well for starters, he's captured the imagination of baseball fans everywhere.

If you ask me, his trade value is at it's highest right now.... lets trade him for some pitching prospects or maybe an established #2 or #3...


:beerme:

Candy Cummings
03-12-2007, 07:27 PM
I'd like to see Hamilton do a little more before we go trading people. Doesn't something like this happen every spring? We traded two strong offensive players last year, and need as much on that side of the game as we can. If Hamilton is the real deal and everyone is healthy, we can do something later.

edabbs44
03-12-2007, 07:32 PM
Since you brought up '06, a case can be made that Freel was overall a more valuable player to the Reds in '06 than than Dunn was. It's certainly possible that the same could be said about the two in '07 after the season depending upon what position Freel primarily plays. Besides, at this point I don't think anything should be considered obvious where Dunn is concerned. I'm guessing a good deal of us redzoners have our fingers crossed concerning Dunn this season....

Freel more valuable? I don't know about that...


But Deno can't play the infield....

My point was that Castro is signed on for 2 years and can play more IF positions than Freel...I'd rather have Freel at 2b, 3b over Castro in a pinch, but then what's the point of having Castro for the next 2 years?

HumnHilghtFreel
03-12-2007, 07:33 PM
I'm against trading Freel.

I don't want to have to change my username:( :evil:

jojo
03-12-2007, 08:03 PM
Freel more valuable? I don't know about that...

Here's just one argument:

Last season Dunn had a VORP of 23 while Freel had one of 16. Now consider that Freel is a plus defender (at a premium position-centerfield) and conservatively, Dunn is a -10 defender (at a position where the talent pool is the largest). At their perspective performance levels, the '06 version of Freel is much tougher to replace then the '06 version of Dunn. Now consider that Dunn made $7M in '06 while Freel made $1.3M. Basically, Dunn cost about $4.7M a win at best while Freel cost about $600K/win.


My point was that Castro is signed on for 2 years and can play more IF positions than Freel...I'd rather have Freel at 2b, 3b over Castro in a pinch, but then what's the point of having Castro for the next 2 years?

Here's the thing......being dumb in the past shouldn't be a justification for being dumb in the future....

GAC
03-12-2007, 08:09 PM
It's nice to have the numerous player options that we have. It gives you the opportunity to entertain any and all scenarios, including making a trade that helps the team.

pedro
03-12-2007, 08:11 PM
Here's just one argument:

Last season Dunn had a VORP of 23 while Freel had one of 16. Now consider that Freel is a plus defender (at a premium position-centerfield) and conservatively, Dunn is a -10 defender (at a position where the talent pool is the largest). At their prespective performance levels, the '06 version of Freel is much tougher to replace then the '06 version of Dunn. Now consider that Dunn made $7M in '06 while Freel made $1.3M. Basically, Dunn cost about $4.7M a win at best while Freel cost about $600K/win.



Here's the thing......being dumb in the past shouldn't be a justification for being dumb in the future....

The thing about it is that Freel is probably never going to have a VORP higher than 20. Dunn's likely to VORP 40 plus this year. (pecota estimate is 46)

edabbs44
03-12-2007, 08:15 PM
Here's just one argument:

Last season Dunn had a VORP of 23 while Freel had one of 16. Now consider that Freel is a plus defender (at a premium position-centerfield) and conservatively, Dunn is a -10 defender (at a position where the talent pool is the largest). At their prespective performance levels, the '06 version of Freel is much tougher to replace then the '06 version of Dunn. Now consider that Dunn made $7M in '06 while Freel made $1.3M. Basically, Dunn cost about $4.7M a win at best while Freel cost about $600K/win.

Money means nothing in this case, since they are both here and under contract already.

And I don't know if Freel should be considered a "plus" defender, just because he is fast and made a few ridiculous plays out in CF. His jumps aren't the greatest, which then require some level of ridiculousness just to make a play which should have been made a bit easier.


Here's the thing......being dumb in the past shouldn't be a justification for being dumb in the future....

Dumb would also entail Dunn still playing the outfield. But I think you are missing the point...the potential drop from Freel to Deno would be negligible. If they can get value for either, they should make the move.

jojo
03-12-2007, 09:12 PM
Money means nothing in this case, since they are both here and under contract already.

And I don't know if Freel should be considered a "plus" defender, just because he is fast and made a few ridiculous plays out in CF. His jumps aren't the greatest, which then require some level of ridiculousness just to make a play which should have been made a bit easier.



Dumb would also entail Dunn still playing the outfield. But I think you are missing the point...the potential drop from Freel to Deno would be negligible. If they can get value for either, they should make the move.

right but you're forgetting Freel can play the infield too....

jojo
03-12-2007, 09:34 PM
The thing about it is that Freel is probably never going to have a VORP higher than 20. Dunn's likely to VORP 40 plus this year. (pecota estimate is 46)

Pecota's estimate for Dunn is actually 43. It should also be noted that Pecota is much more optimistic than Bill James, CHONE, Marcels and ZIPS. An average of all 5 projection systems would translate into a prediction of Dunn's VORP to be somewhere in the mid to high 30's.

That being said, I absolutely agree that Dunn has more projected offensive upside, but the point was made that it's obvious that Dunn is more valuable.... I'm suggesting that Dunn wasn't last year (for those who can't remember, Dunn was projected to have a VORP of 47 last season instead of the actual 23 he managed) so it's reasonable to entertain the idea that Dunn might not be more valuable this year...

If Freel played center field primarily, had a career offensive year (say .280/.375/.410 which isn't that far off from his best OBP and SLG) and was the plus defender that several play-by-play metrics suggest (+10 to +15 over 400 chances), he would smoke a repeat of '06 Dunn and basically be better than '05 Dunn.... Relatively minor increases in Freel's bat would make him much harder to replace as a center fielder than Dunn would be to replace as anything other than a DH.... (Pecota pretty much projects Dunn to be overpaid for through 2011).

Dunn's upside is that of basically a 3 win player factoring in his bat AND glove.

mth123
03-12-2007, 09:39 PM
A lot of good points in this thread. I personally am in the trade Freel camp. His value will only go down from here because:

1. Even though as JoJo states that "the Reds control Freel for 2 more years," after 2007 he won't be cheap anymore.
2. As stated by Spitball, "he is a one man insurance policy" that has lots of value now. Unfortunately, I just don't see the Reds using him in the IF anymore (as EDABBS implied) so that insurance factor isn't as valuable to the Reds now and will be diminished in the market later. (The "you don't use it you lose it" phenomenon.)
3. Having him as an insurance policy in LF, RF and 3B for Cincy is basically signing-up to replacing the only three established power bats with a non-power guy which makes him less of a fit on the team now than ever in that role.
4. Its rare that a team has enough depth at a spot to actually trade a desirable commodity. Be skeptical of Hamilton all you want, but I think its evident that he's going to make the team and he won't be rusting on the bench. Even if he isn't the regular he's going to get a lot of ABs. Couple that with Deno no longer having anything to prove at AAA and Freel's ABs are probably best divied up to those two. Luvdozer was right on when he said decisions now should be about the "2008 to 2010 timeframe." Freel will price himself out of Cincy before this team is ready to contend. And the team needs to find out about these other guys.
5. For all of our quibbling about too many pitchers for all the spots, this team still only has 3 legit major league pitchers (guys who can successfully fill high leverage roles - Harang, Arroyo and Coffey). Freel can be a significant part of a package for some one. If not an established guy, then a higher end prospect needs to be targeted. He can be packaged with some of the fringe pitcher excess and maybe even a decent prospect to get another legit pitcher if possible.
6. Freel's On Base and Speed skills are valued around the league. This is evidenced by guys who have lesser on-base skill like Pierre and Matthews getting such big deals this winter.

As Johnny Footstool said, he should be "shopped." But the Reds don't have to trade him. I think it would be nice to negotiate from a postion of strength for once and see what can be had. Good initial post Beni. I'm on board with shopping, but I wouldn't give him away.

pedro
03-12-2007, 10:08 PM
Pecota's estimate for Dunn is actually 43. It should also be noted that Pecota is much more optimistic than Bill James, CHONE, Marcels and ZIPS. An average of all 5 projection systems would translate into a prediction of Dunn's VORP to be somewhere in the mid to high 30's.

That being said, I absolutely agree that Dunn has more projected offensive upside, but the point was made that it's obvious that Dunn is more valuable.... I'm suggesting that Dunn wasn't last year (for those who can't remember, Dunn was projected to have a VORP of 47 last season instead of the actual 23 he managed) so it's reasonable to entertain the idea that Dunn might not be more valuable this year...

If Freel played center field primarily, had a career offensive year (say .280/.375/.410 which isn't that far off from his best OBP and SLG) and was the plus defender that several play-by-play metrics suggest (+10 to +15 over 400 chances), he would smoke a repeat of '06 Dunn and basically be better than '05 Dunn.... Relatively minor increases in Freel's bat would make him much harder to replace as a center fielder than Dunn would be to replace as anything other than a DH.... (Pecota pretty much projects Dunn to be overpaid for through 2011).

Dunn's upside is that of basically a 3 win player factoring in his bat AND glove.

If he doesn't have a +40 VORP it'll be hard to justify his contract IMO.

As for Freel, he's a nice little player but I think you are overvaluing him. I just don't think he's durable enough to maintain his performance if he gets more than 425 or so AB's.

Betterread
03-12-2007, 10:10 PM
Freel is a very useful player for the team, but I would not classify him as untouchable. I would listen to offers for him. He could help a lot of organizations.

pedro
03-12-2007, 10:13 PM
TMBS, I think trading either Freel or Denofria at this point is probably not a good idea. Griffey is too fragile and Hamilton still has a lot to prove.

wheels
03-13-2007, 12:07 AM
TMBS, I think trading either Freel or Denofria at this point is probably not a good idea. Griffey is too fragile and Hamilton still has a lot to prove.


I think I agree, but I don't know what TMBS means.

WVPacman
03-13-2007, 12:20 AM
I like Ryan Freel, I really do. And I am not as sold on Chris Denorfia as most on this board. However, with the emergence of Josh Hamilton this spring, coupled with Freel's production and contract status, as well as the roster crunch that is victimizing Denorfia, there really is only one good solution:

Ryan Freel should be traded in the first decent deal that comes the Reds way.

With Griffey (hopefully) moving to RF, and Dunn firmly entrenched in LF, Josh Hamilton and Chris Denorfia should be platooning in CF, giving both a gradual introduction into what it is like to be an everyday player in the major leagues. If (and unfortunately when) Griffey gets injured, Hamilton can play RF with Denorfia in CF. Jeff Conine is a capable (obligatory) veteran backup to either one. Fortunately for the Reds, Ryan Freel probably has the most trade value of any outfielder on the roster not named Dunn, and thus could net the most in a trade. Given the fact that he is a FA after the season and now over the 30 mark, this trade becomes even easier. There are plenty of rumors around here (Chicago) that the Sox want Aaron Rowand back. Would they be willing to part with John Danks in order to get a similar player in Freel? As a Reds fan, I sure would.



I understand what you are trying to say BUT this hamilton guy has'nt proved nothing yet EXPECIALLY can he stay out of trouble.Freel on the other hand has earned a starting role in the lineup and has done a good job as a starter.I just think its way to early to start talking about trading freel B/C Hamilton is playing good.

pedro
03-13-2007, 02:25 AM
I think I agree, but I don't know what TMBS means.

that much being said.

jojo
03-13-2007, 08:41 AM
For everyone penciling in Hamilton for centerfield after his first 27 at bats, I give you Willie Bloomquist through 27 at bats this spring:

.444/.483/.630 OPS:1.130

Does Bloomquist's emergence in center make Ichiro expendible for the Mariners?

Obviously Freel/Deno aren't Ichiro but it illustrates the risk associated with making too much out of a small sample during spring training no less....

edabbs44
03-13-2007, 08:55 AM
For everyone penciling in Hamilton for centerfield after his first 27 at bats, I give you Willie Bloomquist through 27 at bats this spring:

.444/.483/.630 OPS:1.130

Does Bloomquist's emergence in center make Ichiro expendible for the Mariners?

Obviously Freel/Deno aren't Ichiro but it illustrates the risk associated with making too much out of a small sample during spring training no less....

Trading Freel doesn't have everything to do with Hamilton...add Deno into the mix and he becomes more expendable. And vice versa if you want to trade Deno.

jojo
03-13-2007, 09:11 AM
Trading Freel doesn't have everything to do with Hamilton...add Deno into the mix and he becomes more expendable. And vice versa if you want to trade Deno.

But Deno/Hamilton don't play infield....

You can't assume Hamilton will provide quality at bats... that means trade either Deno or Freel and a strength of the roster (depth in the outfield) is no longer a strength....

Marc D
03-13-2007, 09:16 AM
I think its a trade Deno/Freel situation, Hamilton has nothing to do with it. That being said does anyone here get the feeling this organization has any faith what so ever in Deno? I don't. Think how much they would have to have to hand him the CF job and trade Freel.

I see Freel in CF, Griffey in RF and Hamilton being the 4th OF for defense alone. You then call Deno up when JR/Freel go on the DL. I know thats pretty simplistic and boring but its the safe play. I'd be willing to wager a fair amount thats exactly how Narron and WK want to play it.

edabbs44
03-13-2007, 09:38 AM
But Deno/Hamilton don't play infield....

You can't assume Hamilton will provide quality at bats... that means trade either Deno or Freel and a strength of the roster (depth in the outfield) is no longer a strength....

The starters aren't strong enough to be worried about depth.

And I think that we are making a dnagerous assumption...who's toi say that Freel will be playing the IF this season? If he is the starting CF, then I doubt he'll see much time in the IF.

jojo
03-13-2007, 09:48 AM
The starters aren't strong enough to be worried about depth.

And I think that we are making a dnagerous assumption...who's toi say that Freel will be playing the IF this season? If he is the starting CF, then I doubt he'll see much time in the IF.


The point is that he CAN

bottom_feeder
03-13-2007, 10:05 AM
So what is Freel's value in trade?

Probably not much. Most teams view him as a 4th OF with speed but little power that can play infield in a pinch.

The last trade rumor we heard for him was for Tankersley a few years ago, right? (San Deigo). His value might be a little higher now, but not much.

People aren't going to give up much for an extra OF. Maybe a team with a huge hole in CF would pay more, but since Freel's offense evaporated the last 6-8 weeks of last season, I can't see many teams content with him as a starter.

edabbs44
03-13-2007, 10:28 AM
The point is that he CAN

And my point is that having Deno in AAA makes zero sense when your 3-5 starters are a black hole, your farm system has question marks regarding depth and your bullpen has one potential power arm at this time.

jojo
03-13-2007, 10:35 AM
And my point is that having Deno in AAA makes zero sense when your 3-5 starters are a black hole, your farm system has question marks regarding depth and your bullpen has one potential power arm at this time.

Relying on Hamilton and trading Deno/Freel fixes those issues how?

Krusty
03-13-2007, 10:57 AM
Obvious many people forget how long it took the Reds to find someone who was able to hit leadoff and be a success at it.

You want a sparkplug at the top of the lineup. The worst I ever seen was Dunn and even Casey hitting at the top of the lineup by Bob Boone.

Trade away Freel and the Reds will be back where they were during the Boone Era. If they had a replacement for Freel at the top of the lineup, then I could see it.

edabbs44
03-13-2007, 11:28 AM
Relying on Hamilton and trading Deno/Freel fixes those issues how?

By trading ONE of Deno/Freel and relying on the other (with help from Hamilton) you could bef up another area of the team.

Having Milton/Lohse and Saarloos in the rotation while having Deno in AAA doesn't do much for the ML team.

edabbs44
03-13-2007, 11:30 AM
Obvious many people forget how long it took the Reds to find someone who was able to hit leadoff and be a success at it.

You want a sparkplug at the top of the lineup. The worst I ever seen was Dunn and even Casey hitting at the top of the lineup by Bob Boone.

Trade away Freel and the Reds will be back where they were during the Boone Era. If they had a replacement for Freel at the top of the lineup, then I could see it.

Freel historically wears down when he plays every day. Look at his 2nd half last year. Finding a replacement for his 2nd half would be quite easy. .238/.340/.350 isn't that difficult to replace.

Cooper
03-13-2007, 11:50 AM
Bob Boone was/is and forever more will be an idiot, but batting Dunn leadoff wasn't a bad idea. He had a good OBP and when a guy is struggling, i think it's helpful to put him in a different role to help bring out a different skill. Point being, maybe hitting first emphasized to Dunn the importance of seeing more pitches.

Casey hitting first made a lot of sense. The guy had a good OBP, but he was a ground ball double play waiting to happen. You bat a guy like that first and he has less opportunites to hit into double plays. I thought batting Casey first made a lot of sense.

KronoRed
03-13-2007, 11:52 AM
While Leadoff hitters are nice I don't think the lack of a "real" one would hold this team back, really after the 1st inning the 5th hitter leads off innings just as much as the 1st guy.

jojo
03-13-2007, 12:06 PM
While Leadoff hitters are nice I don't think the lack of a "real" one would hold this team back, really after the 1st inning the 5th hitter leads off innings just as much as the 1st guy.

To me the advantage of freel isn't a having a "lead off guy", it's having an OBP of .370 in the lineup...

KronoRed
03-13-2007, 12:08 PM
If it's only about the OBP I have no doubt that Deno could match a .370 clip

In limited time he's already at .358

jojo
03-13-2007, 12:09 PM
By trading ONE of Deno/Freel and relying on the other (with help from Hamilton) you could bef up another area of the team.

Having Milton/Lohse and Saarloos in the rotation while having Deno in AAA doesn't do much for the ML team.

But what do you expect Freel/Deno to get.... as I suggested here (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1262308&postcount=21), I think Freel is more valuable than what you'll get back in return...


Ultimately we're likely going to have to agree to disagree on this one....

:beerme:

wheels
03-13-2007, 12:09 PM
Freel can get on base just fine. It's what happens after he gets on base that troubles me a little (caught stealing, getting picked off).

Chip R
03-13-2007, 12:21 PM
To me the advantage of freel is a having a "lead off guy", it's having an OBP of .370 in the lineup...


That's the best reason for keeping Freel. If you trade him, who leads off? If Hamilton starts over Deno and you have Jr. in the lineup, there aren't many options.

RedlegNation
03-13-2007, 12:41 PM
I like keeping Freel, letting him be the "leadoff utility guy", and start Denorfia in CF.

Freel can play 5-6 times a week at any of several different positions without being the full-time starter at any. That allows us to get Denorfia in the lineup on a regular basis (and I expect him to put up a decent OBP if he's playing), plus it keeps Freel fresh.

If it were my team, I'd start Denorfia in CF and move Jr to RF. That makes us a better team. Start Freel all around the field on any given day.

KronoRed
03-13-2007, 12:43 PM
That's the best reason for keeping Freel. If you trade him, who leads off? If Hamilton starts over Deno and you have Jr. in the lineup, there aren't many options.

The Hat. ;)

RedlegNation
03-13-2007, 12:44 PM
The Hat. ;)

I just threw up a little in my mouth. ;)

edabbs44
03-13-2007, 12:46 PM
That's the best reason for keeping Freel. If you trade him, who leads off? If Hamilton starts over Deno and you have Jr. in the lineup, there aren't many options.

Freel isn't exactly Rickey Henderson...he isn't the premier leadoff hitter in the NL or something like that.

He scored 67 runs in 520 ABs last season. I wouldn't call that a great ratio.

Chip R
03-13-2007, 12:50 PM
Freel isn't exactly Rickey Henderson...he isn't the premier leadoff hitter in the NL or something like that.

He scored 67 runs in 520 ABs last season. I wouldn't call that a great ratio.


No he isn't but unless you want to bat Dunn or Hatteberg 1st, you aren't going to have someone leading off who has a good OBP.

RedlegNation
03-13-2007, 12:53 PM
Freel isn't exactly Rickey Henderson...he isn't the premier leadoff hitter in the NL or something like that.

He scored 67 runs in 520 ABs last season. I wouldn't call that a great ratio.

I'm not sure you can blame that entirely on Freel. After all, the guys in the lineup behind him have to drive him in for Freel to score. He can create some runs when on base, but most of the time, that stat is dependent on others.

Natty Redlocks
03-13-2007, 01:00 PM
If they traded Freel, I bet Phillips would lead off. And that there may be the best reason to not trade Freel.

Kc61
03-13-2007, 01:24 PM
Trading Freel because Denorfia will start = a mistake.

Trading Freel because Hamilton will start = could make sense.

I just don't see Deno, right now, as a starting player on a good team. He can handle the position and get on base some, but don't see him being a plus starter. He seems like a good fourth outfielder to me, someone who can take over in case of injury and not hurt the team.

If Hamilton shows that he is really ready to play major league ball, his talent level is so high that I can see trading a starting player to accomodate him. Big time talent.

Benihana
03-13-2007, 01:26 PM
I wouldn't be terribly averse to Brandon Phillips leading off on days when Hamilton starts in CF. When Denorfia starts, he would hit leadoff.

edabbs44
03-13-2007, 01:28 PM
I'm not sure you can blame that entirely on Freel. After all, the guys in the lineup behind him have to drive him in for Freel to score. He can create some runs when on base, but most of the time, that stat is dependent on others.

I could have sworn that OBP is the crux of all run scoring and BA/RISP doesn't matter as much as OBP. I could be wrong.

:)

Benihana
03-13-2007, 01:33 PM
Trading Freel because Denorfia will start = a mistake.

Trading Freel because Hamilton will start = could make sense.

I just don't see Deno, right now, as a starting player on a good team. He can handle the position and get on base some, but don't see him being a plus starter. He seems like a good fourth outfielder to me, someone who can take over in case of injury and not hurt the team.

If Hamilton shows that he is really ready to play major league ball, his talent level is so high that I can see trading a starting player to accomodate him. Big time talent.


I agree, my goal would ultimately be for Hamilton to start and Denorfia be the 4th OF. I do understand that many people feel that Hamilton shouldn't be penciled in as the starter until he "proves something," but I would argue it is pretty difficult to "prove something" as a backup outfielder on a team with six outfielders. Give him and Denorfia a chance to see what they can do sharing an everyday spot.

If Freel stays (and starts in CF), I think as the season plays on, it could become similar to the Aurillia/Encarnacion dilemna, where a guy that clearly has no future with the team is taking crucial atbats away from (a) younger player(s) with much more upside.

Chip R
03-13-2007, 01:43 PM
Freel can play 5-6 times a week at any of several different positions without being the full-time starter at any. That allows us to get Denorfia in the lineup on a regular basis (and I expect him to put up a decent OBP if he's playing), plus it keeps Freel fresh.



I keep hearing this and I'm really skeptical about it. Let's say Jr. is healthy and either Hamilton or Deno is playing regularly. Jr. doesn't come out of the lineup unless he's hurt. You want to give Deno or Hamilton all the ABs you can to see if they can actually hit big league pitching on a consistant basis. You have Phillips at 2nd and EE at 3rd. Are you just going to sit one of those guys a day every 3-4 days just so Freel can play? I don't think it helps a team when you have to sit a guy - especially a young guy - every 3-4 days so a guy like Freel can play.

You know where the best place Freel could land would be? St. Louis if Edmonds wasn't playing. Freel could start for them in CF and if they deemed it necessary to rest him every so often, there's no one better than LaRussa that uses his bench and has them contribute. Plus he could move to 3rd when Rolen comes down with his annual bum shoulder. But would you want to trade Freel in the division?

luvdozer
03-13-2007, 01:52 PM
Here's the thing......being dumb in the past shouldn't be a justification for being dumb in the future....

No, but it is a pretty good forecast

registerthis
03-13-2007, 02:53 PM
But would you want to trade Freel in the division?

This doesn't bother me nearly as much as the nagging notion that there is no way the Reds can get a return on Freel commensurate with his value. To most every other team out there, Freel is viewed as a role-playing utility man, good for somewhere between 300-400 ABs and 1-2 stints on the DL. Team just don't give up much meaningful talent for a guy with those credentials.

Reds fans know the value that a player like Freel brings to the club. He's not expensive, and he's happy playing just about anywhere. Considering the likelihood of a Junior injury, and a flameout by either (or both) Denorfria and Hamilton, I think you keep Freel around. The Reds don't gain anything by trading him for some roster filler or a grade-B prospect. if some legitimate opportunity to improve the club presents itself, then sure, the Reds would be foolish not to consider it. But trading Freel simply to trade him? That doesn't excite me at all.

Razor Shines
03-13-2007, 03:43 PM
For everyone penciling in Hamilton for centerfield after his first 27 at bats, I give you Willie Bloomquist through 27 at bats this spring:

.444/.483/.630 OPS:1.130

Does Bloomquist's emergence in center make Ichiro expendible for the Mariners?

Obviously Freel/Deno aren't Ichiro but it illustrates the risk associated with making too much out of a small sample during spring training no less....

Yeah and last year Wise had an incredible spring, but Hamilton is different than Bloomquist and Wise. I'm sorry it may not make sense to some or even to most, but I think Hamilton will make an impact this year. I believe in the extraodinary and Hamilton is an extraordinary talent. Wise last year and Bloomquist this year is putting up great numbers in spring training, but I don't think either of them can hit a 500 ft. home run and I don't think either of them have ever been called the best prospect of their generation. It's different, neither of them have half the talent of Hamilton. IMHO Hamilton having a strong spring means more than Wise or Bloomquist having a strong spring. That's just what I think, it may be crazy.

Falls City Beer
03-13-2007, 03:46 PM
I don't see an immediate need to dump Freel.

Benihana
03-13-2007, 03:54 PM
I think jojo simply doesn't understand Hamilton's pedigree. This is not some flukey guy out of nowhere, he was the #1 overall pick in the draft, and had it not been for some off the field problems would probably be one of the premier outfielders in the game right now. The Reds need to take advantage of the fact that they were at the right place at the right time with him hopefully having his past problems behind him.

Razor Shines
03-13-2007, 04:12 PM
I think jojo simply doesn't understand Hamilton's pedigree. This is not some flukey guy out of nowhere, he was the #1 overall pick in the draft, and had it not been for some off the field problems would probably be one of the premier outfielders in the game right now. The Reds need to take advantage of the fact that they were at the right place at the right time with him hopefully having his past problems behind him.

Well I'm not going to pretend to know what jojo understands and doesn't understand, but I think that Hamilton having a strong spring means something more than when most guys have a strong spring.

jojo
03-13-2007, 04:26 PM
I think jojo simply doesn't understand Hamilton's pedigree. This is not some flukey guy out of nowhere, he was the #1 overall pick in the draft, and had it not been for some off the field problems would probably be one of the premier outfielders in the game right now. The Reds need to take advantage of the fact that they were at the right place at the right time with him hopefully having his past problems behind him.

I really don't think I'm all that naive concerning the issue. I know it's a cliche since Moneyball, but one doesn't have to look any farther than Billy Beane to see how automatic pedigree is when determining success for ballplayers. For every Dave Winfield, there are 1000 Johnny Butwhatabouttheirpedigrees (i know, you've never heard of THAT guy).....

Hamilton's not a prospect at age 25. He's a project. No one is arguing that Hamilton can't contribute in 2007.....we're arguing about the likelihood.... It's not impossible, it's just improbable.

It is however absolutely nuts to suggest that the Reds should make consequential personnel moves (trading Freel/Deno) because of 27 at bats in games that have zero meaning and only a rough approximation to real major league situations.

Even if four years of hardcore drug use wasn't a mitigating factor, four years of not working on his game, certainly should be a flag. Basically people penciling Hamilton into significant playing time with the Reds are essentially asking a high school senior with an asterisk to do something that very, very, very few people have done in the modern game....

I'd like to be perfectly clear here..... I'm rooting for Hamilton so hard it's not funny. I LOVE the idea of a five tool guy patrolling the outfield in GABP-especially when he'd be under control for the next 5-6 years. Hamilton is a great dream. However, I also love the idea of the Reds winning. So back to reality for a moment-right now I think Freel/Deno gives them the best shot for '07 IMHO.

jojo
03-13-2007, 04:28 PM
Well I'm not going to pretend to know what jojo understands and doesn't understand,

Trust me....you don't want to spend significant time between my ears....

:beerme:

MartyFan
03-13-2007, 04:59 PM
I can see Freel being traded...He is not an every day player and Denorfia very well could be as he has nothing to prove in the Minor leagues and Hamilton if nothing else has been interesting to watch and as I have stated before I wouldn't be surprised to see him starting the season as our opening day CF.

It doesn't bother me a bit to gamble on the future by giving up Freel.

Natty Redlocks
03-13-2007, 05:12 PM
This doesn't bother me nearly as much as the nagging notion that there is no way the Reds can get a return on Freel commensurate with his value. To most every other team out there, Freel is viewed as a role-playing utility man, good for somewhere between 300-400 ABs and 1-2 stints on the DL. Team just don't give up much meaningful talent for a guy with those credentials.

Reds fans know the value that a player like Freel brings to the club. He's not expensive, and he's happy playing just about anywhere. Considering the likelihood of a Junior injury, and a flameout by either (or both) Denorfria and Hamilton, I think you keep Freel around. The Reds don't gain anything by trading him for some roster filler or a grade-B prospect. if some legitimate opportunity to improve the club presents itself, then sure, the Reds would be foolish not to consider it. But trading Freel simply to trade him? That doesn't excite me at all.

I can tell you that as a Cub fan I used to fantasize about them trading for Freel. I can't speak for any other teams, but I know a lot of Cubs fans like Freel a whole lot, and consider him more or less an everyday player.

redsrule2500
03-14-2007, 12:27 PM
I'm an advocate of actively shopping Ryan Freel. There are plenty of teams out there who value scrappiness and have decent pitching talent in the minors. If Freel could bring a B-level relief prospect, I'd do the deal and not think twice about it.

Unfortunately, I think Freel's trade value is not high enough alone. He'd get more as part of a package deal.

...More relievers? I don't see how B Level relievers would help that much at this point.

ALSO:

I want to apologize to the user who I offended by saying this is now the stupid thread. I'm sorry, I really didn't mean for it to be personal/offensive. I visit many message boards, and each one has a different 'tone' about it - other places that would have been fine/humerous, but I know RedsZone is more classy, and looking back it was dumb.

So, again, sorry...after the 50 points of negs I definitely realized it was probably wasn't 'acceptable' here, and I apologize.


Oh and I would like to thank MVW for being a complete hypocrite while giving me a neg reputation:
"Still a total moron, I see. You of all people shouldn't be calling other people stupid when it comes to baseball."

Yeah, thanks, call me a moron for calling a thread stupid. Wow.

Benihana
03-14-2007, 01:22 PM
...More relievers? I don't see how B Level relievers would help that much at this point.

ALSO:

I want to apologize to the user who I offended by saying this is now the stupid thread. I'm sorry, I really didn't mean for it to be personal/offensive. I visit many message boards, and each one has a different 'tone' about it - other places that would have been fine/humerous, but I know RedsZone is more classy, and looking back it was dumb.

So, again, sorry...after the 50 points of negs I definitely realized it was probably wasn't 'acceptable' here, and I apologize.


Apology accepted. And jojo, I never suggested trading Deno. MY suggestion was to trade Freel (ASSUMING we could get decent pitching in return) to let Deno and Hamilton get their atbats and see who emerges.

PuffyPig
03-14-2007, 06:54 PM
The Reds need to take advantage of the fact that they were at the right place at the right time with him hopefully having his past problems behind him.


I disagree that the Reds were at the right place at the right time. They carefully and skillfully maneuvered to that place at that time.

If Hamilton continues to hit, he will get planty of AB's on this team, Freel and Deno notwithstanding.

Other past "extra" OF's on this team (see Guillen, Pena) got their AB's when they proved they deserved them.

Benihana
03-15-2007, 09:36 AM
If Hamilton continues to hit, he will get planty of AB's on this team, Freel and Deno notwithstanding.

Other past "extra" OF's on this team (see Guillen, Pena) got their AB's when they proved they deserved them.

Was Jerry Narron the manager then? Ask Edwin Encarnacion about the first half of last season if you really believe this is the case.

Benihana
04-19-2007, 08:27 PM
I think its time to bring this thread back. Anyone still skeptical about Hamilton?

pedro
04-19-2007, 08:31 PM
We'll need Freel this year.

Matt700wlw
04-19-2007, 08:35 PM
hamilton has not proven a thing, yet

How we lookin?' :)

HumnHilghtFreel
04-19-2007, 08:50 PM
I'm biased(the name doesn't give that away, does it?), but I'd like to see Freel stay. I think he's been good so far this year. With Deno out he's obviously even more important, but Hamilton has been amazing thus far.

I guess if he can bring back a good pitcher I'd have to think about it though.

KronoRed
04-19-2007, 08:54 PM
How we lookin?' :)

Give me a full season before I buy :D

WVPacman
04-19-2007, 11:37 PM
Trade Freel?? NO WAY!!! How can you trade a stand up guy,team player,and Hamiltons number 1 fan.As everybody knows he went to narron and told him to start Hamilton in his position.Now tell me who else would do that?? no one b/c they know they would be losing playing time.Freel can still help us win games just like before when he was on the bench.Theres no way we should trade Freel b/c he is to good of a player just to let go.

Has anybody else watched freel this year with Hamilton?? Freel helps him anyway he can even thow they play the same position.When Hamilton hits a homer or does something else to help the team whos there first to congrat him?? Freel!! What im trying to say is we need freel on this team b/c hes a team player,great sportsman,willing to set on the bench for another player to start,and will do anything to help the reds win.

WebScorpion
04-22-2007, 01:02 AM
Trade Freel?? NO WAY!!! How can you trade a stand up guy,team player,and Hamiltons number 1 fan.As everybody knows he went to narron and told him to start Hamilton in his position.Now tell me who else would do that?? no one b/c they know they would be losing playing time.Freel can still help us win games just like before when he was on the bench.Theres no way we should trade Freel b/c he is to good of a player just to let go.

Has anybody else watched freel this year with Hamilton?? Freel helps him anyway he can even thow they play the same position.When Hamilton hits a homer or does something else to help the team whos there first to congrat him?? Freel!! What im trying to say is we need freel on this team b/c hes a team player,great sportsman,willing to set on the bench for another player to start,and will do anything to help the reds win.

Often the difference between a Championship team and a contender is the guys coming off the bench. IMHO, Freel is such a guy. ;)

WVPacman
04-22-2007, 01:08 AM
Web,I have a feeling that Freel will be sent to the bench when JR comes back.On the bright side Freel has made a major impact before coming off the bench so it probably would'nt hurt us.If EE keeps struggling like he is then I hope Freel will be put at 3rd until EE gets his act together.

37red
04-22-2007, 09:49 PM
I haven't read the thread but don't need to if the title says it all. A trading Freel thread must be a joke. If anyone on the team should be kept it's Freel, enough said.