PDA

View Full Version : Hamilton and Saarloos in top ten of small transaction steals



KoryMac5
03-12-2007, 05:13 PM
Small moves could turn out to be steals
Under-the-radar acquisitions have potential to make an impact
By Tom Singer / MLB.com

Major League teams devote every offseason -- especially true for the past 30 years of the mobile free-agent era -- to making sure that they get all the pieces just right for another demanding campaign. Holes are filled and all contingencies accounted for through trades and signings, the very tinder that goes into the furnace of the Hot Stove.
Fans debate the headline moves, but those small-type transactions invariably influence the course of the summer months. For every Barry Zito, there's a Ramon Ortiz, who last year snuck into the nation's capital to lead the Nationals with 11 wins. For every Johnny Damon, there's a Jose Valentin, who entered Flushing, Queens, through a back door and became a keystone to the Mets' National League East division title.

This plot never changes, and every Spring Training camp now includes players who may have been afterthoughts, but have the potential to rush to the forefront. They are the under-the-radar acquisitions who can turn into over-the-top steals.

With one "Slammin'" exception, we aren't even talking about the non-roster overpopulation in camps, only now being thinned out a little by initial spring cuts. Homeless veterans who have grabbed at their last straws -- from Richard Hidalgo with the Astros to Jim Parque with the Mariners -- are still flying so low, they need to be tracked by sonar, not radar.

Who are the top candidates to emerge from the shadows into the spotlight? Consider the following list a prediction, in the order of impact potential.

1. Josh Hamilton, Reds
Intrigue and puzzlement, but mostly shrugs, answered his trade to the Reds from the Cubs, who selected him from the Tampa Bay organization during the December Rule 5 Draft. After all, beyond the drugs trail and injuries (eight surgeries since 1999) and tattoos (26 at last count), the one-time wonder boy had played a total of 98 Minor League games since 2000.

If anyone had to turn his life around, it was this 6-foot-4, 210-pound long-ago No. 1 draft pick. Only a couple of weeks of Spring Training have strongly testified to what Hamilton has been saying for three months -- that he's done that 180.

Hitting close to .500 in early Grapefruit League action, Hamilton has remarkably displayed no attrition of the skills that turned him into the nation's top draft choice in 1999. Seven years after he appeared in the 2000 Futures Game, the future may have finally arrived for Hamilton.

"I'm very, very happy for him. I know how hard he's worked," said Cincinnati manager Jerry Narron, a fellow North Carolinian, who will deserve all the credit for being a catalyst in the Reds-Hamilton union. "I know how hard he's worked. He's a big man and a tremendous athlete."




2. Brian Bannister, Royals
A right-hander who just turned 26, Bannister spent most of the 2006 season out of the sight of Mets fans, and he was also out of their minds by the time of his December deal to Kansas City. The son of former longtime Major League left-hander Floyd Bannister will soon be pitching himself into a lot of people's consciousness.

Bannister lit it up last April, with a 2.35 ERA in five starts in the Mets' rotation, and the rub is that nothing has happened to the arm that was putting up those numbers. As is apparently the case with so many pitchers, Bannister got hurt impersonating a position player -- he blew out his right hamstring while legging out a triple in a late April game against the Giants.

Bannister barely resurfaced last season, but regained his bearings, and he supplemented his repertoire with a two-seam fastball in the Mexican Winter League.

"He walks around like a big leaguer," Royals manager Buddy Bell said early in camp. "There's a presence about him, and I'm anxious to see him pitch in games that matter, which for him, is in Spring Training."

Nothing's been the matter thus far: Two outings, five innings, three hits and zero earned runs.

3. Mark Redman, Braves
You can't glide in any lower on the radar than hitting camp at 4 in the morning, then going three sharp innings nine hours later. That's the latest twist to Redman's mysterious trip from 11-game winner to holdout free agent.

Redman was essentially that until an injury to left-hander Mike Hampton created a perfect opportunity for him with the Braves. Redman's mind games ended, and he could finally go to work with possibly more motivation than anyone else anywhere.

"It stinks going into March 9 not knowing where you'll be, so that made me very motivated. But you learn from the experience," said Redman, who, in a hot market for pitchers, had been stunned to not get any solid offers after putting up a winning record (11-10) with the 100-loss Royals. "You can't change the perception scouting departments of different teams have of you -- except out on that mound."

Atlanta now gives him that chance. Redman may spend the season wowing the Braves as he did on that first day.

"This spring, I felt more ready for one of my better years than ever," said Redman, his confidence bolstered by a cut fastball he began throwing with great success last Aug. 16, "but had no team to go to."

4. Sammy Sosa, Rangers
Who is that guy in the Texas locker room? The guy seen thus far at the plate, we know. Attacking fastballs, opposite-fielding offspeed stuff, the hop and the skyward point ... the M.O. is unchanged.

But the warm smile greeting visitors to the nondescript corner locker, rivulets of work-induced sweat before others have had their morning beverage? Yes, it's the new, improved, hopefully-the-same Sosa, who promises to be huge again both in the batter's box and at the box office.

Right now, manager Ron Washington's biggest problem may be having a set outfield rotation, and perceiving Sosa as the regular DH. The 38-year-old is in terrific condition and appears to be more into the game when playing right between at-bats.

And what does the man himself think of the Rangers getting all this upside for a $500,000 guarantee?

"They are the ones who gave me an opportunity and stepped up to the plate," said Sosa, who was out of the game in 2006, "and they are the ones that look like geniuses now."

5. Horacio Ramirez, Mariners
In 2005, Ramirez went 11-9 in Atlanta while Zito was 14-13 in Oakland. A few months ago, while Zito was cashing in big, Ramirez was being shuttled to Seattle for a middle reliever, Rafael Soriano.

Other than the difference in service time, which made Zito eligible for free agency, durability diverged the two left-handers' career paths. While Zito made 34-plus starts in each of his seasons in the A's rotation, shoulder, hamstring and finger injuries limited Ramirez to a total of 23 in the seasons preceding and following 2005.

A healthy and hungry Ramirez, still only 27, will be quite a find for manager Mike Hargrove's rotation. He has the stuff to keep the best American League lineups off-balance.

Ramirez approaches the season with modest goals.

"There are just two things I want to accomplish this season: just staying healthy and going deep in ballgames," Ramirez said. "Those are the things I can control."

The early results have begun to raise expectations. Ramirez threw three hitless innings on Tuesday against the Rangers, after a similarly sharp "B" game outing.

Other beeps:

6. Shannon Stewart, Athletics

7. Kirk Saarloos, Reds

8. Darin Erstad, White Sox

9. Kip Wells, Cardinals

10. John Thomson, Blue Jays


Tom Singer is a reporter for MLB.com.

Good job Wayne time to give credit where credit is due.

Johnny Footstool
03-12-2007, 05:17 PM
How about seeing if Hamilton can actually perform in the bigs before giving credit to Wayne?

Reds Freak
03-12-2007, 05:31 PM
Regardless of how Hamilton pans out in the big leagues, credit is still due to Krivsky. These are the type of low risk, high reward moves that are necessary to be competitive in a market like Cincinnati. Wayne has never given the 4th spot to Hamilton, he surrounded him with other decent outfield options (Crosby, Conine) in the unfortunate case that Hamilton doesn't succeed. I give Wayne credit for having his eye on Josh and pouncing on him when he became available.

Johnny Footstool
03-12-2007, 05:46 PM
Regardless of how Hamilton pans out in the big leagues, credit is still due to Krivsky. These are the type of low risk, high reward moves that are necessary to be competitive in a market like Cincinnati. Wayne has never given the 4th spot to Hamilton, he surrounded him with other decent outfield options (Crosby, Conine) in the unfortunate case that Hamilton doesn't succeed. I give Wayne credit for having his eye on Josh and pouncing on him when he became available.

Buying lottery tickets is low risk, high reward, too. You only deserve credit if you win.

Of course, I like Krivsky's low risk moves a lot more than his high-risk disasters.

KoryMac5
03-12-2007, 05:46 PM
How about seeing if Hamilton can actually perform in the bigs before giving credit to Wayne?

We can hammer Krivs for the bad transactions but we can't give him credit for the small no risk ones that could pay off. The point of the thread isn't whether Hamilton will perform or not the point is to give a much maligned GM props for taking a chance on him. A chance that seems to be panning out so far.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
03-12-2007, 05:51 PM
How about seeing if Hamilton can actually perform in the bigs before giving credit to Wayne?
The credit should be due for having the stones to get him in the first place. If it doesn't work it cost us very little, if it works out it gains us alot.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
03-12-2007, 06:03 PM
Buying lottery tickets is low risk, high reward, too. You only deserve credit if you win.

Of course, I like Krivsky's low risk moves a lot more than his high-risk disasters.
Ok i guess two can play at this game. Wayne is a god, look at all of the unbelievable moves he has made since he has been here. Phillips, Ross, Arroyo, Hamilton, Saarloos. He traded away a shortstop that couldn't field his position and picked up one of the best defensive shortstops in the game. He traded away a rightfielder with a bad attitude(see comments about cinci fans) that didn't try to get better and failed to live up to hispotential due to injuries, laziness, and weight problems. Neither one of these guys were on the list of people to be resigned at the end of the season, so no matter how much you dislike the relievers we got for them they are better than nothing. In my opinion a healthy Maj, and Bray make this bullpen a heck of alot better. So say what you will, but I see a gm that is putting together a team that has a very good chance to compete not only now but also down the road as well.

Caveman Techie
03-12-2007, 06:25 PM
Sorry this is Redszone no sun shines here ;)

hebroncougar
03-12-2007, 06:52 PM
While I hope Hamilton ends up #1 on this list..........there is a long, looooooooooooooooooong, way to go before anyone can assess if he is a success.

jojo
03-12-2007, 06:58 PM
Small moves could turn out to be steals
Under-the-radar acquisitions have potential to make an impact
By Tom Singer / MLB.com

Major League teams devote every offseason -- especially true for the past 30 years of the mobile free-agent era -- to making sure that they get all the pieces just right for another demanding campaign. Holes are filled and all contingencies accounted for through trades and signings, the very tinder that goes into the furnace of the Hot Stove.
Fans debate the headline moves, but those small-type transactions invariably influence the course of the summer months. For every Barry Zito, there's a Ramon Ortiz, who last year snuck into the nation's capital to lead the Nationals with 11 wins. For every Johnny Damon, there's a Jose Valentin, who entered Flushing, Queens, through a back door and became a keystone to the Mets' National League East division title.

This plot never changes, and every Spring Training camp now includes players who may have been afterthoughts, but have the potential to rush to the forefront. They are the under-the-radar acquisitions who can turn into over-the-top steals.

With one "Slammin'" exception, we aren't even talking about the non-roster overpopulation in camps, only now being thinned out a little by initial spring cuts. Homeless veterans who have grabbed at their last straws -- from Richard Hidalgo with the Astros to Jim Parque with the Mariners -- are still flying so low, they need to be tracked by sonar, not radar.

Who are the top candidates to emerge from the shadows into the spotlight? Consider the following list a prediction, in the order of impact potential.

1. Josh Hamilton, Reds
Intrigue and puzzlement, but mostly shrugs, answered his trade to the Reds from the Cubs, who selected him from the Tampa Bay organization during the December Rule 5 Draft. After all, beyond the drugs trail and injuries (eight surgeries since 1999) and tattoos (26 at last count), the one-time wonder boy had played a total of 98 Minor League games since 2000.

If anyone had to turn his life around, it was this 6-foot-4, 210-pound long-ago No. 1 draft pick. Only a couple of weeks of Spring Training have strongly testified to what Hamilton has been saying for three months -- that he's done that 180.

Hitting close to .500 in early Grapefruit League action, Hamilton has remarkably displayed no attrition of the skills that turned him into the nation's top draft choice in 1999. Seven years after he appeared in the 2000 Futures Game, the future may have finally arrived for Hamilton.

"I'm very, very happy for him. I know how hard he's worked," said Cincinnati manager Jerry Narron, a fellow North Carolinian, who will deserve all the credit for being a catalyst in the Reds-Hamilton union. "I know how hard he's worked. He's a big man and a tremendous athlete."




2. Brian Bannister, Royals
A right-hander who just turned 26, Bannister spent most of the 2006 season out of the sight of Mets fans, and he was also out of their minds by the time of his December deal to Kansas City. The son of former longtime Major League left-hander Floyd Bannister will soon be pitching himself into a lot of people's consciousness.

Bannister lit it up last April, with a 2.35 ERA in five starts in the Mets' rotation, and the rub is that nothing has happened to the arm that was putting up those numbers. As is apparently the case with so many pitchers, Bannister got hurt impersonating a position player -- he blew out his right hamstring while legging out a triple in a late April game against the Giants.

Bannister barely resurfaced last season, but regained his bearings, and he supplemented his repertoire with a two-seam fastball in the Mexican Winter League.

"He walks around like a big leaguer," Royals manager Buddy Bell said early in camp. "There's a presence about him, and I'm anxious to see him pitch in games that matter, which for him, is in Spring Training."

Nothing's been the matter thus far: Two outings, five innings, three hits and zero earned runs.

3. Mark Redman, Braves
You can't glide in any lower on the radar than hitting camp at 4 in the morning, then going three sharp innings nine hours later. That's the latest twist to Redman's mysterious trip from 11-game winner to holdout free agent.

Redman was essentially that until an injury to left-hander Mike Hampton created a perfect opportunity for him with the Braves. Redman's mind games ended, and he could finally go to work with possibly more motivation than anyone else anywhere.

"It stinks going into March 9 not knowing where you'll be, so that made me very motivated. But you learn from the experience," said Redman, who, in a hot market for pitchers, had been stunned to not get any solid offers after putting up a winning record (11-10) with the 100-loss Royals. "You can't change the perception scouting departments of different teams have of you -- except out on that mound."

Atlanta now gives him that chance. Redman may spend the season wowing the Braves as he did on that first day.

"This spring, I felt more ready for one of my better years than ever," said Redman, his confidence bolstered by a cut fastball he began throwing with great success last Aug. 16, "but had no team to go to."

4. Sammy Sosa, Rangers
Who is that guy in the Texas locker room? The guy seen thus far at the plate, we know. Attacking fastballs, opposite-fielding offspeed stuff, the hop and the skyward point ... the M.O. is unchanged.

But the warm smile greeting visitors to the nondescript corner locker, rivulets of work-induced sweat before others have had their morning beverage? Yes, it's the new, improved, hopefully-the-same Sosa, who promises to be huge again both in the batter's box and at the box office.

Right now, manager Ron Washington's biggest problem may be having a set outfield rotation, and perceiving Sosa as the regular DH. The 38-year-old is in terrific condition and appears to be more into the game when playing right between at-bats.

And what does the man himself think of the Rangers getting all this upside for a $500,000 guarantee?

"They are the ones who gave me an opportunity and stepped up to the plate," said Sosa, who was out of the game in 2006, "and they are the ones that look like geniuses now."

5. Horacio Ramirez, Mariners
In 2005, Ramirez went 11-9 in Atlanta while Zito was 14-13 in Oakland. A few months ago, while Zito was cashing in big, Ramirez was being shuttled to Seattle for a middle reliever, Rafael Soriano.

Other than the difference in service time, which made Zito eligible for free agency, durability diverged the two left-handers' career paths. While Zito made 34-plus starts in each of his seasons in the A's rotation, shoulder, hamstring and finger injuries limited Ramirez to a total of 23 in the seasons preceding and following 2005.

A healthy and hungry Ramirez, still only 27, will be quite a find for manager Mike Hargrove's rotation. He has the stuff to keep the best American League lineups off-balance.

Ramirez approaches the season with modest goals.

"There are just two things I want to accomplish this season: just staying healthy and going deep in ballgames," Ramirez said. "Those are the things I can control."

The early results have begun to raise expectations. Ramirez threw three hitless innings on Tuesday against the Rangers, after a similarly sharp "B" game outing.

Other beeps:

6. Shannon Stewart, Athletics

7. Kirk Saarloos, Reds

8. Darin Erstad, White Sox

9. Kip Wells, Cardinals

10. John Thomson, Blue Jays


Tom Singer is a reporter for MLB.com.

Good job Wayne time to give credit where credit is due.



Wowsers Batman! Quick, use the tripe spray on the batbelt!!!!!!!!!

My favorite conclusion, other than service time and few injuries, Ramirez is a $120M pitcher......

Johnny Footstool
03-13-2007, 01:07 AM
Ok i guess two can play at this game. Wayne is a god, look at all of the unbelievable moves he has made since he has been here. Phillips, Ross, Arroyo, Hamilton, Saarloos. He traded away a shortstop that couldn't field his position and picked up one of the best defensive shortstops in the game. He traded away a rightfielder with a bad attitude(see comments about cinci fans) that didn't try to get better and failed to live up to hispotential due to injuries, laziness, and weight problems. Neither one of these guys were on the list of people to be resigned at the end of the season, so no matter how much you dislike the relievers we got for them they are better than nothing. In my opinion a healthy Maj, and Bray make this bullpen a heck of alot better. So say what you will, but I see a gm that is putting together a team that has a very good chance to compete not only now but also down the road as well.

That fantasy world you're living in sounds like a wonderful place.

KoryMac5
03-13-2007, 01:22 AM
That fantasy world you're living in sounds like a wonderful place.

Don't confuse fantasy with faith.

MartyFan
03-13-2007, 06:37 AM
How about seeing if Hamilton can actually perform in the bigs before giving credit to Wayne?

He actually didn't give credit to Wayne...he wrote


"I'm very, very happy for him. I know how hard he's worked," said Cincinnati manager Jerry Narron, a fellow North Carolinian, who will deserve all the credit for being a catalyst in the Reds-Hamilton union. "I know how hard he's worked. He's a big man and a tremendous athlete."

Which is not true based on several interviews that Krivsky, Narron and Hamilton have given...in fact, didn't Jerry say he felt bad for not reaching out to Hamilton?

So, while he should have given credit to Special K he mistakenly heaped the praise for this move on Jerry Narron.

Now, I will now give all the credit and back slapping to Special K.

Kc61
03-13-2007, 10:34 AM
I give Krivsky credit for the Hamilton pick up right now. Who knows how it will ultimately work out, but it was a brilliant way to pick up a top talent.

Wayne's track record has been excellent, except for the Majewski injury situation.

Johnny Footstool
03-13-2007, 10:50 AM
He actually didn't give credit to Wayne...he wrote



Which is not true based on several interviews that Krivsky, Narron and Hamilton have given...in fact, didn't Jerry say he felt bad for not reaching out to Hamilton?

So, while he should have given credit to Special K he mistakenly heaped the praise for this move on Jerry Narron.

Now, I will now give all the credit and back slapping to Special K.

My first post wasn't related to the article. I was addressing the last sentence in the original post of this thread:

Good job Wayne time to give credit where credit is due.

And I still don't see how Wayne deserves credit for a move that hasn't proven to be positive yet. If Hamilton actually pans out and becomes a productive major leaguer, then Wayne deserves all the credit in the world. Otherwise, this is all just wishful thinking.

Johnny Footstool
03-13-2007, 10:51 AM
Don't confuse fantasy with faith.

Faith is fine except when it blinds you to the facts.

We've addressed the fact and fiction of the Kearns/Lopez deal literally hundreds of times, so I'm not going to do that again on this thread.

Reds Freak
03-13-2007, 11:14 AM
My first post wasn't related to the article. I was addressing the last sentence in the original post of this thread:


And I still don't see how Wayne deserves credit for a move that hasn't proven to be positive yet. If Hamilton actually pans out and becomes a productive major leaguer, then Wayne deserves all the credit in the world. Otherwise, this is all just wishful thinking.

It's obvious at this point that the guy isn't a bum. He has some talent. Whether or not he can put it together day in and day out in the big leagues is unknown. So what if it doesn't work out? What if he hits .220 as the Reds 4th outfielder and gets sent down to Louisville and we never hear of him again? How does that hurt the Reds as a team? He wasn't brought in to play center field every day. However, he has the potential to. So why can't Wayne be given credit for a move where potentially you have your starting center fielder for 5 years and at worst you lose nothing and gave up nothing to get him?

westofyou
03-13-2007, 11:15 AM
And I still don't see how Wayne deserves credit for a move that hasn't proven to be positive yet.

Because in the words of Whitey Herzog:


"I'd rather get fired for something I did, rather then something I didn't do."

After O'Brien's hand sitting and waiting jubilee the image of someone trying to do something is a glorious event.

Doc. Scott
03-13-2007, 12:03 PM
Singer's article starts off pretty great... then he gets to Horacio Ramirez.

Johnny Footstool
03-13-2007, 12:12 PM
It's obvious at this point that the guy isn't a bum. He has some talent. Whether or not he can put it together day in and day out in the big leagues is unknown. So what if it doesn't work out? What if he hits .220 as the Reds 4th outfielder and gets sent down to Louisville and we never hear of him again? How does that hurt the Reds as a team? He wasn't brought in to play center field every day. However, he has the potential to. So why can't Wayne be given credit for a move where potentially you have your starting center fielder for 5 years and at worst you lose nothing and gave up nothing to get him?

At worst you waste 400 ABs figuring out that the kid isn't ready for the bigs, and you waste another roster spot on a team with several wasted roster spots (Conine, and potentially Moeller and Bubba Crosby if make the roster). At worst he steals a roster spot from Denorfia, who has done everything to earn a chance in the majors.

All I'm saying is that it will take more than a few good ABs in Spring Training to prove that acquiring Hamilton is a good move.

KoryMac5
03-13-2007, 01:09 PM
At worst you waste 400 ABs figuring out that the kid isn't ready for the bigs, and you waste another roster spot on a team with several wasted roster spots (Conine, and potentially Moeller and Bubba Crosby if make the roster). At worst he steals a roster spot from Denorfia, who has done everything to earn a chance in the majors.

All I'm saying is that it will take more than a few good ABs in Spring Training to prove that acquiring Hamilton is a good move.

At best he continues to hit and field like he has in spring training and earn a roster spot based on those many spring training AB's. Deno gets a lot of love here on this board but as of right now Hamilton is outplaying him plain and simple. The point of the article and of several posts on this thread is that this is a low, low risk move with such high potential. Krivs lands himself on that list given out by mlb.com not once but twice. He did it last year too with Phillips and Hatte. For as many moves as he gets ripped for he deserves some credit for his recent moves, Hamilton, Saarloos, and Burton.

Caveman Techie
03-13-2007, 02:24 PM
And I still don't see how Wayne deserves credit for a move that hasn't proven to be positive yet. If Hamilton actually pans out and becomes a productive major leaguer, then Wayne deserves all the credit in the world. Otherwise, this is all just wishful thinking.

That sure hasn't stopped the nay-sayers from totally ignoring the fact that Maj and Bray are still Reds and that the Trade may still turn out in favor of the Reds. Did it work out last year? Nope, it didn't give the Reds the push to the off-season. Did it hurt last year? I don't know, I'm not sold on the "fact" that Kearns and Lopez would have gotten the Reds to the playoffs. Maybe they would have.

But enough about a subject that has been beaten to death. I do think Wayne deserves a little bit of credit for picking up Hamilton. If you waived Hamilton right now, how many teams do you think would pass on him now?

bucksfan2
03-13-2007, 02:40 PM
That sure hasn't stopped the nay-sayers from totally ignoring the fact that Maj and Bray are still Reds and that the Trade may still turn out in favor of the Reds. Did it work out last year? Nope, it didn't give the Reds the push to the off-season. Did it hurt last year? I don't know, I'm not sold on the "fact" that Kearns and Lopez would have gotten the Reds to the playoffs. Maybe they would have.

But enough about a subject that has been beaten to death. I do think Wayne deserves a little bit of credit for picking up Hamilton. If you waived Hamilton right now, how many teams do you think would pass on him now?

In dealing with Hamilton I believe the reds made the deal that they agreed to the trade and would tell the cubs the day of the draft. WK kept it silent for an awful long time and I read somewhere that he even kept Narron in the dark for a while. As for Krivsky I think he has done a good job. I can finally see a play taking shape looking for the future. The thing I find troubling is Krvsky bringing in old veterans to this team. I am just suprised that the reds couldn't find a better option in their system than Conine or Stanton, or Cormier. I did not like "the trade" but Krivsky has gone out on record saying that he overpaid in that trade. Other than those moves I feel he has done a good job.

Caveman Techie
03-13-2007, 02:47 PM
I don't have a problem with old veterans holding down spots to give the younger guys a chance to mature in AAA another year. As long as it is a one year contract I'm fine with it.

A good example of this would be Joe Randa holding down 3rd base till Ede was ready.

Johnny Footstool
03-13-2007, 02:58 PM
That sure hasn't stopped the nay-sayers from totally ignoring the fact that Maj and Bray are still Reds and that the Trade may still turn out in favor of the Reds. Did it work out last year? Nope, it didn't give the Reds the push to the off-season.

A playoff push was the whole purpose behind the timing of the deal. Otherwise, Krivsky could have looked for a better deal in the offseason.


Did it hurt last year? I don't know, I'm not sold on the "fact" that Kearns and Lopez would have gotten the Reds to the playoffs. Maybe they would have.

It definitely hurt the Reds. Bray and Maj were pretty awful in the bullpen and contributed to the Reds' run deficit during the playoff push.


But enough about a subject that has been beaten to death.

Agreed.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
03-14-2007, 03:44 PM
That fantasy world you're living in sounds like a wonderful place.Pretty weak man, next time when someone challenges your opinion, try to do better than a nut uh my dads smarter than your dad reply.

Rocket_Fuel
03-14-2007, 05:13 PM
How about seeing if Hamilton can actually perform in the bigs before giving credit to Wayne?


Because trades are always judged before a player has a chance to produce.

Johnny Footstool
03-14-2007, 05:46 PM
Pretty weak man, next time when someone challenges your opinion, try to do better than a nut uh my dads smarter than your dad reply.

Your "challenge to my opinion" didn't contain anything I haven't heard before. Since I've argued ad nauseum against each of the points you made, I figured it was easier to summarily dismiss them than rehash a ten-month old debate.

Johnny Footstool
03-14-2007, 05:51 PM
Because trades are always judged before a player has a chance to produce.

Trades are judged on value at the time of the deal as well as after the fact. The goal of the trade also plays a factor.

Example: Juan Guzman for BJ Ryan. Great deal at the time, lousy deal now.

Ltlabner
03-14-2007, 08:17 PM
All I'm saying is that it will take more than a few good ABs in Spring Training to prove that acquiring Hamilton is a good move.

But isn't Hamilton the definition of the "creative" moves that we've all said Wayne (and most 'small market teams') need to make to be sucessfull and squeeze every last ounce from the payroll? He's all upside isn't he?

Or does tieing up a roster spot out weigh any postitive upside he may have?

Eric_Davis
03-14-2007, 08:41 PM
While I hope Hamilton ends up #1 on this list..........there is a long, looooooooooooooooooong, way to go before anyone can assess if he is a success.


Oh, but that's what's fun about Spring Training....to make a fuss about and write about all of this potential.

So far, in just 16 months, Wayne Krivsky has improved this organization to a point that would have taken most G.M.'s three or four years, or maybe forever.

and, what's really amazing is, that he hasn't signed any one up for any long-term stupid contracts that don't deserve one, which is usually the first thing a new G.M. goes and does.

KoryMac5
03-15-2007, 01:01 AM
Your "challenge to my opinion" didn't contain anything I haven't heard before. Since I've argued ad nauseum against each of the points you made, I figured it was easier to summarily dismiss them than rehash a ten-month old debate.

I feel when you summarily dismiss someone you show them a lack of respect. His points may have been stated before elsewhere but does that mean he's not deserving of a respectable answer. After all isn't that the fun part of sports is debate. I am sure many subjects in sports have been debated to death over the years but if you go to any sports bar in America or around the world you will hear those topics spoken about again and again.

tripleaaaron
03-15-2007, 01:48 AM
Even if he is only moderately productive this season he is well worth the 50,000 dollar pick up and still should be considered a great move, due to the fact that his intangibles point to him being at least a solid bench player for a long time coming.

Johnny Footstool
03-15-2007, 10:12 AM
But isn't Hamilton the definition of the "creative" moves that we've all said Wayne (and most 'small market teams') need to make to be sucessfull and squeeze every last ounce from the payroll? He's all upside isn't he?

Or does tieing up a roster spot out weigh any postitive upside he may have?

He has a world of upside. He also has quite a bit of downside. There's a very good chance he won't be able to cut it in the majors after being away from the game for so long. If that's the case, then tying up a roster spot would be a very bad thing.

Like I said originally, we should reserve judgement until Hamilton gets more than a few ST ABs under his belt.

UK Reds Fan
03-15-2007, 10:48 AM
I guess I am back to does the last roster spot make that big of a splash? Did Willy Mo sitting around really have a negative effect on where those Reds team finished?

At worst, we'll have a defensive replacement for Dunn/Griff at end of games in Hamilton....which is what many last roster spots are made up of. I just fail to see the big deal if Hamilton is sitting on the final roster spot as opposed to Deno/Hopper or Moeller/Bellhorn. I see nothing there that is a big dropoff, if dropoff at all, from Hamilton.

Johnny Footstool
03-15-2007, 11:38 AM
I guess I am back to does the last roster spot make that big of a splash? Did Willy Mo sitting around really have a negative effect on where those Reds team finished?

At worst, we'll have a defensive replacement for Dunn/Griff at end of games in Hamilton....which is what many last roster spots are made up of. I just fail to see the big deal if Hamilton is sitting on the final roster spot as opposed to Deno/Hopper or Moeller/Bellhorn. I see nothing there that is a big dropoff, if dropoff at all, from Hamilton.

With Griffey's and Freel's propensity for injury, the 4th and 5th outfielders will be getting plenty of playing time, so yes, it's important to have quality players in those roster spots. Deno has done everything he can in the minors and has seen some success in the majors. If Hamilton takes his roster spot and struggles vs. major league pitching, it will definitely affect the team.

westofyou
03-15-2007, 11:54 AM
Deno has done everything he can in the minors and has seen some success in the majors.

September success a fleeting thing it is, add in his .219/.219/.278, 7 hits (7 TB) out of the most AB's in camp this spring and I have to say, he's doing his best to make sure he ends up in AAA.

UK Reds Fan
03-15-2007, 11:55 AM
With Griffey's and Freel's propensity for injury, the 4th and 5th outfielders will be getting plenty of playing time, so yes, it's important to have quality players in those roster spots. Deno has done everything he can in the minors and has seen some success in the majors. If Hamilton takes his roster spot and struggles vs. major league pitching, it will definitely affect the team.


If/When Griffey/Freel go down with injury, can't we just call up Deno, since he has options when that time occurs as they'll be an opening with guys on the DL? And to note, Hamilton isn't a lumbering defensive player...he appears to be very fluid and at minimum gives you a serviceable defensive replacement, so even if the batting goes south...we still have some skills to help the team with.

Again, I think it is worth the risk to protect Hamilton since he is in such a unique situation.

BRM
03-15-2007, 12:19 PM
September success a fleeting thing it is, add in his .219/.219/.278, 7 hits (7 TB) out of the most AB's in camp this spring and I have to say, he's doing his best to make sure he ends up in AAA.

I'm pretty sure Deno's ticket to Louisville is already punched. There is still time but he'll have to flat out rake for the next two weeks to get a spot at this point.

westofyou
03-15-2007, 12:22 PM
I'm pretty sure Deno's ticket to Louisville is already punched. There is still time but he'll have to flat out rake for the next two weeks to get a spot at this point.

Getting past 1st is always a good master plan for your spring training regime.

BRM
03-15-2007, 12:26 PM
He sure hasn't done anything this spring to force Jerry's hand. That's for sure.

Chip R
03-15-2007, 12:29 PM
Consider the source but the Enquirer quotes Narron as saying he thinks it's unlikely they break camp with 4 LH hitting OFers.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070315/SPT04/703150354/1071/CINCI

Narron looking for the right mix
Wants right-handed bat to complement lefties in OF
BY JOHN FAY | JFAY@ENQUIRER.COM


SARASOTA, Fla. - Reds manager Jerry Narron said it's unlikely that the Reds will break camp with four left-handed-hitting outfielders.

"Very unlikely," Narron said. "But it could happen."

That bodes well for Chris Denorfia and Norris Hopper, the right-handed hitters competing for an extra outfielder spot.

Two of the starting outfielders, Adam Dunn and Ken Griffey Jr., hit left-handed. It's nearly a given that Josh Hamilton, another left-handed hitter, will make the club.

Ryan Freel, the starter in either center or right field, is a right-handed hitter.

Jeff Conine, a right-handed hitter, can play left or right field. But the Reds are looking at him more as a platoon partner at first with Scott Hatteberg.

Denorfia and Hopper are competing with Bubba Crosby for an extra outfield spot. Crosby would be the fourth left-handed-hitting outfielder.

Denorfia and Hopper are similar players in that they are very solid fundamentally with limited power.

Hopper won the International League batting title, hitting .347 in 383 at-bats for Louisville.

Denorfia would have edged Hopper for the title if Denorfia had had enough at-bats to quality. He hit .349 in 312 at-bats.

Denorfia has more power - seven homers at Louisville to none for Hopper. Hopper has more speed - 25 steals at Louisville to 15 for Denorfia. Both can play all three outfield positions.

Both Denorfia and Hopper have options. Crosby doesn't. Crosby hit .276 in 98 at-bats for the New York Yankees in 2005 but slipped to .207 in 87 at-bats last year. He is considered a very good defensive outfielder.

ARROYO SHARP: Bronson Arroyo hasn't pitched like a guy battling the flu this spring.

Arroyo threw five innings of shutout, two-hit ball Wednesday night against Tampa Bay.

Arroyo struck out two and walked none. He needed only 60 pitches.

He's allowed a total of three baserunners in seven innings - this after he missed a start in a "B" game March 4 with the flu.

"I feel normal again the last two days," Arroyo said.

HOMER'S NIGHT: Homer Bailey pitched a scoreless inning in the Reds' 2-1 win over Tampa Bay.

Can you read anything into him going one inning?

"He was scheduled to go an inning," Reds manager Jerry Narron said.

Bailey seemed a bit surprised by the briefness of his outing.

"Your guess is as good as mine," Bailey said. "I don't know why. I just work here."

Bailey hit a batter, got a double play and struck out a batter. He gave up five runs in two-thirds of an inning his last time out.

Narron downplayed the importance of Bailey coming back with a good outing.

"It was good to see," Narron said. "I don't know if it was important."

E.Z. HURTING: Right-hander Elizardo Ramirez, one of the pitchers competing for the fifth spot in the rotation, hasn't pitched in a game in more than a week.

Ramirez's shoulder, which ended his season early last August, is bothering him. The setback isn't thought to be major.

FLASHING THE LEATHER: Shortstop Alex Gonzalez has made the kind of plays the Reds had in mind when they signed him for $14 million over three years.

"He's a special shortstop," Narron said. "Fans in Cincinnati are going to get a real treat over the next three years."

LOHSE CLOSE: The Reds will decide over the next day or so if right-hander Kyle Lohse will return to the rotation for his regular turn Saturday.

Lohse suffered a mild strain of his right hamstring March 2.

ROSE BUD: Opening Day won't be Pete Rose's first game at Great American Ball Park, but it could be his first complete game.

In response to a Wednesday story saying Rose had never seen a game at GABP, Reds fan Jason Long of Dayton recalled seeing the former player-manager watching part of the rain-delayed Reds-Blue Jays game June 8, 2003.

Bob Castellini Jr., Reds Hall of Fame president, had said Tuesday Rose left during the rain delay

westofyou
03-15-2007, 12:32 PM
He sure hasn't done anything this spring to force Jerry's hand. That's for sure.

If Bill McKechnie was skipper he'd make the team.

Johnny Footstool
03-15-2007, 12:59 PM
September success a fleeting thing it is, add in his .219/.219/.278, 7 hits (7 TB) out of the most AB's in camp this spring and I have to say, he's doing his best to make sure he ends up in AAA.

Is it really fair to discount a hot month in the majors while at the same time placing emphasis on 3 weeks of spring training?

And besides, Deno's outfield defense alone warrants a spot on the roster.

Johnny Footstool
03-15-2007, 01:01 PM
If/When Griffey/Freel go down with injury, can't we just call up Deno, since he has options when that time occurs as they'll be an opening with guys on the DL? And to note, Hamilton isn't a lumbering defensive player...he appears to be very fluid and at minimum gives you a serviceable defensive replacement, so even if the batting goes south...we still have some skills to help the team with.

Again, I think it is worth the risk to protect Hamilton since he is in such a unique situation.

Griffey and Freel both have a tendency to be "day to day" for 2 weeks at a time, which means no extra roster spot would open up.

westofyou
03-15-2007, 01:01 PM
Is it really fair to discount a hot month in the majors while at the same time placing emphasis on 3 weeks of spring training?

No, I think that teams often take that approach though.

Eric_Davis
03-15-2007, 05:35 PM
Ok i guess two can play at this game. Wayne is a god, look at all of the unbelievable moves he has made since he has been here. Phillips, Ross, Arroyo, Hamilton, Saarloos. He traded away a shortstop that couldn't field his position and picked up one of the best defensive shortstops in the game. He traded away a rightfielder with a bad attitude(see comments about cinci fans) that didn't try to get better and failed to live up to hispotential due to injuries, laziness, and weight problems. Neither one of these guys were on the list of people to be resigned at the end of the season, so no matter how much you dislike the relievers we got for them they are better than nothing. In my opinion a healthy Maj, and Bray make this bullpen a heck of alot better. So say what you will, but I see a gm that is putting together a team that has a very good chance to compete not only now but also down the road as well.

Excellent point! :thumbup:

Eric_Davis
03-15-2007, 05:40 PM
Griffey and Freel both have a tendency to be "day to day" for 2 weeks at a time, which means no extra roster spot would open up.


Another good point. They are so often not available, yet taking up one of the 25 roster spots. We're constantly playing with a 24-man roster.

Stingray
03-17-2007, 04:45 PM
Burton should also be on Singer's list and maybe Livingston.

jojo
03-17-2007, 06:41 PM
Ok i guess two can play at this game. Wayne is a god, look at all of the unbelievable moves he has made since he has been here. Phillips, Ross, Arroyo, Hamilton, Saarloos.

This is pretty optimistic. Hamilton is a big question mark and concerning Saarloos, several threads (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54133&page=12&highlight=jojo+saarloos) have been devoted to compelling arguments (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54206) that in the very least suggest he's a huge question mark too.... Ross was as big a part of their run scoring drought last season as he was their earlier success....unfortunately the drought is closer to his career history... Phillips basically looks to be a roughly league average second baseman-a huge upgrade over Womack to be sure-but not really a cornerstone. I think it's a fair point to suggest that Krivsky shouldn't be given credit for things that haven't happened yet....


Neither one of these guys were on the list of people to be resigned at the end of the season, so no matter how much you dislike the relievers we got for them they are better than nothing.

Both Kearns and Lopez were arb eligible. I'm not offering an opinion one way or the other about the trade but if the trade didn't happen there is no way Krivsky would've non-tendered either guy. Rest assured, they both would've been in Reds uniforms or they would've been dealt.


In my opinion a healthy Maj, and Bray make this bullpen a heck of alot better. So say what you will, but I see a gm that is putting together a team that has a very good chance to compete not only now but also down the road as well.

Majewski when healthy is basically your run of the mill league average bullpen arm. I think the positive about him is, well, he's not Rick White (though David Weathers pretty much is (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1229305&postcount=21) and the Reds might make him their closer...)

Bray, I think, has some real upside.

KoryMac5
03-17-2007, 07:02 PM
The title of the article was top ten transactions that could turn out to be steals. I give Wayne full credit for taking chances on low risk high gain ball players which Hamilton and Saarloos definitely are. I also think Burton could definitely be added to that list of steals the way he has been throwing. If you ask other GM's if they would take a flier on Hamilton, Saarloos, and Burton now I would imagine a majority would say yes. Therefore in my book Wayne gets credit for making the deals before others could.

jojo
03-17-2007, 08:00 PM
I give Wayne full credit for taking chances on low risk high gain ball players which Hamilton and Saarloos definitely are.

Taking low risk flyers are a completely different thing than:


Wayne is a god, look at all of the unbelievable moves he has made since he has been here....

Really, if taking low risk flyers = unbelievable moves, then Bowden IS god....


I also think Burton could definitely be added to that list of steals the way he has been throwing. If you ask other GM's if they would take a flier on Hamilton, Saarloos, and Burton now I would imagine a majority would say yes. Therefore in my book Wayne gets credit for making the deals before others could.

But really, every GM could have this said about him by his team's fans based upon the guys their teams brought into camp....

KoryMac5
03-17-2007, 09:50 PM
Taking low risk flyers are a completely different thing than:



Really, if taking low risk flyers = unbelievable moves, then Bowden IS god....



But really, every GM could have this said about him by his team's fans based upon the guys their teams brought into camp....

If I remember correctly the reviews on Burton were mixed at the time. Nobody expected him to throw this well, the front office which includes Wayne should get some credit for selecting this guy. Here is the link to the reactions. http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53099&highlight=jared+burton

Always Red
03-17-2007, 10:44 PM
I like both the Hamilton and Saarloos deals but before anyone judges WK on them we need to see how they do, RIGHT?

Sounds like a good idea, but as of yet, who knows?!?!:dunno: