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View Full Version : C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks



reds44
03-12-2007, 06:27 PM
OK, while I'm waiting, here's my roster math:
Rotation (5)
Harang
Arroyo
Milton
Lohse
Saarloos

Bullpen (7)
Weathers
Coffey
Bray
Cormier
Stanton
?
?

Starting position players (8)
C - Ross
1B - Hatteberg
2B - Phillips
3B - Encarnacion
SS - Gonzalez
LF - Dunn
OF - Freel
OF - Griffey

Bench (5)
INF Castro
OF Hamilton
1B/COF Conine
C/1B Valentin
??

That gives us 22 spots that are filled, or as Jerry Narron likes to say, "in cement" (although Saarloos' geography isn't 100 percent, but his spot on the team is)

This list is assuming Majewski starts the season on the DL. If he doesn't, that means there are just two spots -- a pitcher and a position player -- left.

There's a lot of wiggle room with that bench spot. It could be a position player, an outfielder or a catcher. The catcher would make sense because Valentin is the team's top pinch-hitter. So maybe he serves that role as much as catcher. Because he's such a valuable pinch-hitter, they may need that third catcher because an 'emergency' catcher wouldn't be needed only in emergencies. Something to think about.

The bullpen? If Wilson keeps pitching well, he could start the season in the rotation and then you could move Saarloos to the bullpen. Belisle is a valuable guy.

Not alot to argue with there.

KoryMac5
03-12-2007, 06:52 PM
Some tough choices coming up. Time to dump some salary and go with the cheaper more effective guys.

11larkin11
03-12-2007, 07:21 PM
I think Belisle is a lock, most likely in the pen, but maybe he could sneak into the rotation (cut Milton!)

Topcat
03-12-2007, 07:40 PM
I wish thet would send Milton to The mets or anyone and eat half his salary. I truly believe our rotation would be far better with his subtraction.

hebroncougar
03-12-2007, 07:53 PM
If Matt Belisle doesn't come north with this team either A. He has gotten hurt between now and April 2nd or B. They still aren't serious about winning. With the way he has pitched, he's their 3rd best starter right now.

toledodan
03-12-2007, 07:55 PM
i know its only been a couple of innings but dustin hermensen has looked good.

wheels
03-12-2007, 08:43 PM
Belisle will be the tragic figure of this spring.

He should be the team's third starter, but he'll be wasted in Louisville.

Shame on Wayne for continuing the Milton travesty.

edabbs44
03-12-2007, 08:45 PM
It's amazing how much they didn't need some of the past calendar year's acquisitions.

redsmetz
03-12-2007, 08:48 PM
Belisle will be the tragic figure of this spring.

He should be the team's third starter, but he'll be wasted in Louisville.

Shame on Wayne for continuing the Milton travesty.

Wayne's saddled with an albatross and 8-10 Million for this year and he's supposed to just choke that one down? Frankly, that's absurd. I'm fine with moving him, but not at eating that huge salary.

I still doubt Cormier will be here. Also, another thought, is it possible that Bray starts in Louisville for now (ha, ha - I typed Indy first - showing my age, next I'll be saying Denver or Wichita or Nashville!).

This is not a bad problem to have - it means we've got some depth (even with the albatross contract).

wheels
03-12-2007, 08:52 PM
Wayne's saddled with an albatross and 8-10 Million for this year and he's supposed to just choke that one down? Frankly, that's absurd. I'm fine with moving him, but not at eating that huge salary.

I still doubt Cormier will be here. Also, another thought, is it possible that Bray starts in Louisville for now (ha, ha - I typed Indy first - showing my age, next I'll be saying Denver or Wichita or Nashville!).

This is not a bad problem to have - it means we've got some depth (even with the albatross contract).

I wouldn't have a problem with them eating that contract at all.

What's worse? Spending 8.5 mil on guy that gets his head beat in every fifth day, or spending 8.5 mil and not letting him get his head beat in every fifth day, while giving a younger, more talented player a chance to shine?

He's only got one year left, so get him out of there.

hebroncougar
03-12-2007, 09:18 PM
Wayne's saddled with an albatross and 8-10 Million for this year and he's supposed to just choke that one down? Frankly, that's absurd. I'm fine with moving him, but not at eating that huge salary.

I still doubt Cormier will be here. Also, another thought, is it possible that Bray starts in Louisville for now (ha, ha - I typed Indy first - showing my age, next I'll be saying Denver or Wichita or Nashville!).

This is not a bad problem to have - it means we've got some depth (even with the albatross contract).

If eating 8.5 mil., or getting someone who's going to be 6-12 with a 5.50 ERA, or letting Belisle start for 400K and he goes 11-7 with a 4.00 ERA, I'll eat the 8.5 mil. Or I pay him 5 mil, and get someone to take him for 3.5 mil.

thatcoolguy_22
03-12-2007, 10:17 PM
If eating 8.5 mil., or getting someone who's going to be 6-12 with a 5.50 ERA, or letting Belisle start for 400K and he goes 11-7 with a 4.00 ERA, I'll eat the 8.5 mil. Or I pay him 5 mil, and get someone to take him for 3.5 mil.

I would be happy to see Belisle put up those numbers over the season and it would be like we paid Belisle 8.9 million for the year. If we could find a sucker to take on some of that salary it would be phenomenal but I highly doubt it. I've said it before but Wang and the rest of the yankees staff is seriously over-rated
and they have the cash to spend...

RedFanAlways1966
03-12-2007, 10:19 PM
If eating 8.5 mil., or getting someone who's going to be 6-12 with a 5.50 ERA, or letting Belisle start for 400K and he goes 11-7 with a 4.00 ERA, I'll eat the 8.5 mil.

A lot of IFS there. I do not want to belittle Matt Belisle, but why should I (a REDS fan) believe that he can go 11-7 with a 4.00 ERA?


Spending 8.5 mil on guy that gets his head beat in every fifth day, or spending 8.5 mil and not letting him get his head beat in every fifth day, while giving a younger, more talented player a chance to shine?

I am not a big fan of Eric Milton (more specifically his contract!). However, I did notice that he went 8-8 last season. He did get his head beat in twice last year when he pitched with a knee that needed surgery in April and pitched with a bad arm in September. When I deduct those two starts, he had a 4.41 ERA last year. He also pitched 14 QS in 26 GS... 14 QS in 24 GS if we take out two injured starts. Also lost 3 games when he threw a QS. Also had 3 no decisions when he threw a QS. Only won 1 game when he did not pitch a QS. Heck, he might have been 11-5 or better with some support from the rest of the team.

And what if one of these youger players gets his head beat in every fifth day? Sure it costs less, but will it ruin the mentality of a guy that might need more seasoning? Will it cause the REDS FO to lose faith in a guy that might have shined in 2008 or 2009? That too could be a tough price to pay... like eating $9 mill to watch it happen.

As Sam Wyche might say to the REDS fans who think the REDS can eat $9 million left by the previous regime, "You don't root for the New York Yankees, you root for the Cincinnati REDS!" I don't blame the diehards for wanting rid of Milton and his contract, but not too many teams with that payroll eat that much money. It is the modern day economics of baseball and the bad signing of the previous regime. Come next year it will no longer be discussed.

UK Reds Fan
03-12-2007, 10:19 PM
It's amazing how much they didn't need some of the past calendar year's acquisitions.

I'd have to agree...the trades last year for Bray/Maj and Cormier were in a different reason to try and win a pennant.

But adding Stanton and Weathers, while not terrible contracts, but we had/have way cheaper alternatives without about same level of risk.

The Castro contract is another weird move IMO. Solved next to nothing excpet for spending an additional 1-2 million for no reason.

The Conine contract takes the cake in this whole scenario. What Wayne seen the need to sign him while facing Deno going AAA or Hopper for that matter is a complete waste of 2 million bucks.

All in all, in appears Wayne is sort of wasting about 11 million bucks (Lohse, Cormier, Castro, Conine and one of Stanton/Weathers) when we could have replaced those guys with Belisle, Ramirez, Burton, Shackelford, Salmon, Hopper and Deno all for each making less than 750k or league minimum.

Redsland
03-12-2007, 10:24 PM
All in all, in appears Wayne is sort of wasting about 11 million bucks (Lohse, Cormier, Castro, Conine and one of Stanton/Weathers) when we could have replaced those guys with Belisle, Ramirez, Burton, Shackelford, Salmon, Hopper and Deno all for each making less than 750k or league minimum.
Perhaps, but in his defense, Wayne's owner has never complained about payroll. We fans are used to Lindner and Marge crowing about it, but Castellini never has.

edabbs44
03-12-2007, 10:27 PM
I'd have to agree...the trades last year for Bray/Maj and Cormier were in a different reason to try and win a pennant.

But adding Stanton and Weathers, while not terrible contracts, but we had/have way cheaper alternatives without about same level of risk.

The Castro contract is another weird move IMO. Solved next to nothing excpet for spending an additional 1-2 million for no reason.

The Conine contract takes the cake in this whole scenario. What Wayne seen the need to sign him while facing Deno going AAA or Hopper for that matter is a complete waste of 2 million bucks.

All in all, in appears Wayne is sort of wasting about 11 million bucks (Lohse, Cormier, Castro, Conine and one of Stanton/Weathers) when we could have replaced those guys with Belisle, Ramirez, Burton, Shackelford, Salmon, Hopper and Deno all for each making less than 750k or league minimum.

Uh huh

mth123
03-12-2007, 10:54 PM
Perhaps, but in his defense, Wayne's owner has never complained about payroll. We fans are used to Lindner and Marge crowing about it, but Castellini never has.

That's true but limited resources are limited resources. Spend it on one or two quality guys instead of spreading it around on junk.

tripleaaaron
03-12-2007, 11:22 PM
Even with Valentin being our best pinch hitter I say forget that third catcher. In an emergency situation Im sure Hatte could handle a few innings, and freel would do it as well. We dont need Moeller on our bench, we need a much better stick than his .227/.289 split.

Sea Ray
03-13-2007, 12:58 AM
I'd like to see them find a way to keep Jared Burton somehow. Unless injuries happen I look for a lot of guys with options to go to Louisville, like Belisle or Bray just so they can stash some folks.

This doesn't mean that they'll take the best 25 guys north nor does it mean it'll look the same a week later.

Sea Ray
03-13-2007, 01:01 AM
All in all, in appears Wayne is sort of wasting about 11 million bucks (Lohse, Cormier, Castro, Conine and one of Stanton/Weathers) when we could have replaced those guys with Belisle, Ramirez, Burton, Shackelford, Salmon, Hopper and Deno all for each making less than 750k or league minimum.

Good point. Add in Milton and there appears to be a lot of wasted salary on a team with precious little to spare.

KoryMac5
03-13-2007, 02:18 AM
I'd have to agree...the trades last year for Bray/Maj and Cormier were in a different reason to try and win a pennant.

But adding Stanton and Weathers, while not terrible contracts, but we had/have way cheaper alternatives without about same level of risk.

The Castro contract is another weird move IMO. Solved next to nothing excpet for spending an additional 1-2 million for no reason.

The Conine contract takes the cake in this whole scenario. What Wayne seen the need to sign him while facing Deno going AAA or Hopper for that matter is a complete waste of 2 million bucks.

All in all, in appears Wayne is sort of wasting about 11 million bucks (Lohse, Cormier, Castro, Conine and one of Stanton/Weathers) when we could have replaced those guys with Belisle, Ramirez, Burton, Shackelford, Salmon, Hopper and Deno all for each making less than 750k or league minimum.

I really think that Wayne did not forsee some of these young arms coming in and doing the job like they have. Belisle has been so inconsistent because of his back. Lizard played well in spots but fell in love with that changeup last year and got hammered. Burton a rule V guy who came out of nowhere and add Livingston to the mix too. Shack inconsistent, Salmon great stuff but is wild and Santos has been consistent at losing. Hopper and Deno you cant have em both with Hamilton in the fold. He spent that 11 million thinking he needed to put a respectable team on the field. I am sure knowing what he knows now about our depth he wouldn't have made some of those deals. Spring training is full of surprises this year. I do think that somebody out of the afore mentioned bad money contracts will get cut or shipped out.

MartyFan
03-13-2007, 07:50 AM
It's amazing how much they didn't need some of the past calendar year's acquisitions.

I look for a lot of trades to be made from our surplus...if not before opening day before the AS break.

Ltlabner
03-13-2007, 08:04 AM
I wouldn't have a problem with them eating that contract at all.

What's worse? Spending 8.5 mil on guy that gets his head beat in every fifth day, or spending 8.5 mil and not letting him get his head beat in every fifth day, while giving a younger, more talented player a chance to shine?

He's only got one year left, so get him out of there.

Of course you wouldn't have a problem with eating it. It isn't your money.

What's worse? Eating 1/2 or more of a 8.5m contract only to replace him with a guy who gives you the same or worse performance. And with the cast of folks we CURRENTLY have to choose from it's very likely they'd give you the same or worse performance. Belisle has back issues. Lizzard has grown a ton, but hasn't show that he can produce less than 5 ERA over the course of an entire year. I like Sarrloos but for the back of the rotation, not to count on him to put up 4.5 or lower ERA over the course of the entire year (especially when he's projected to be 5+ era and has only been below the mid 4's once in his 3 years). Victor Santos?

Now, if they can land a bonafide guy with a proven track record I'm all on board with burning the money. But how much sense does it make to set fire to a pile of cash and replace it with the same (and chance for worse) performance?

redsmetz
03-13-2007, 08:23 AM
I look for a lot of trades to be made from our surplus...if not before opening day before the AS break.

I think your right and I'm guessing there will be a number of moves prior to Opening Day to break the logjam we have. We've got some great arms and we need to make room for them. And giving the lack of pitching depth in the Majors, there will be some buyers.

OesterPoster
03-13-2007, 09:56 AM
I'd like to see them find a way to keep Jared Burton somehow.

According to Chris Welsh, the Reds MO with Burton is to send him out against the toughest lineups this spring, hoping he gets hammered. If he gets hammered, they'll work out a deal with the A's to keep him (with the hope he'll pass through waivers). If he does well (as he has so far), they'll keep sending him out to get hammered. If he never does get roughed up, then they'll end up trying to work a deal with the A's...and more costly (if he'd actually pass waivers).

I know that seems weird, but it was straight out of Welsh's mouth the other morning on 700.

bucksfan2
03-13-2007, 10:36 AM
IMO it would be a crime if the reds lost a guy with as much potential as Burton to keep around a guy like Cormier.

hebroncougar
03-13-2007, 10:48 AM
A lot of IFS there. I do not want to belittle Matt Belisle, but why should I (a REDS fan) believe that he can go 11-7 with a 4.00 ERA?



I am not a big fan of Eric Milton (more specifically his contract!). However, I did notice that he went 8-8 last season. He did get his head beat in twice last year when he pitched with a knee that needed surgery in April and pitched with a bad arm in September. When I deduct those two starts, he had a 4.41 ERA last year. He also pitched 14 QS in 26 GS... 14 QS in 24 GS if we take out two injured starts. Also lost 3 games when he threw a QS. Also had 3 no decisions when he threw a QS. Only won 1 game when he did not pitch a QS. Heck, he might have been 11-5 or better with some support from the rest of the team.

And what if one of these youger players gets his head beat in every fifth day? Sure it costs less, but will it ruin the mentality of a guy that might need more seasoning? Will it cause the REDS FO to lose faith in a guy that might have shined in 2008 or 2009? That too could be a tough price to pay... like eating $9 mill to watch it happen.

As Sam Wyche might say to the REDS fans who think the REDS can eat $9 million left by the previous regime, "You don't root for the New York Yankees, you root for the Cincinnati REDS!" I don't blame the diehards for wanting rid of Milton and his contract, but not too many teams with that payroll eat that much money. It is the modern day economics of baseball and the bad signing of the previous regime. Come next year it will no longer be discussed.

Everything in baseball is an IF at this point. I'd take the chance on Belisle over Milton in a heartbeat. Sure I could be wrong. But Milton has proven he can't pitch for the Reds the last two years.

wheels
03-13-2007, 01:12 PM
Of course you wouldn't have a problem with eating it. It isn't your money.

What's worse? Eating 1/2 or more of a 8.5m contract only to replace him with a guy who gives you the same or worse performance. And with the cast of folks we CURRENTLY have to choose from it's very likely they'd give you the same or worse performance. Belisle has back issues. Lizzard has grown a ton, but hasn't show that he can produce less than 5 ERA over the course of an entire year. I like Sarrloos but for the back of the rotation, not to count on him to put up 4.5 or lower ERA over the course of the entire year (especially when he's projected to be 5+ era and has only been below the mid 4's once in his 3 years). Victor Santos?

Now, if they can land a bonafide guy with a proven track record I'm all on board with burning the money. But how much sense does it make to set fire to a pile of cash and replace it with the same (and chance for worse) performance?


It's almost a mortal lock that ANY PITCHER on this current roster could put up numbers better than Eric Milton.

TeamSelig
03-13-2007, 01:39 PM
Bullpen spots:

Belisle and Majik (is he hurt?)

Bench:

Deno

RedFanAlways1966
03-13-2007, 01:57 PM
It's almost a mortal lock that ANY PITCHER on this current roster could put up numbers better than Eric Milton.

Looking at last season's numbers...

* The REDS had twelve guys start a game.
> ERA: Milton had the 5th best.
> WHIP: Milton had the 4th best.
> Wins: Milton had the 3rd most.

I am not a betting man and I know that it is a common thing to drill Mr. Milton into the ground here, but I am not sure it is a mortal lock that any pitcher on the current roster can put up better numbers. I know of at least 7 starters on last year's roster that didn't. Unless we are talking about a different set of numbers than the ones that I reference above...

KoryMac5
03-13-2007, 02:15 PM
Looking at last season's numbers...

* The REDS had twelve guys start a game.
> ERA: Milton had the 5th best.
> WHIP: Milton had the 4th best.
> Wins: Milton had the 3rd most.

I am not a betting man and I know that it is a common thing to drill Mr. Milton into the ground here, but I am not sure it is a mortal lock that any pitcher on the current roster can put up better numbers. I know of at least 7 starters on last year's roster that didn't. Unless we are talking about a different set of numbers than the ones that I reference above...

I know for a fact that I am basing my opinions on the starting five and bullpen arms on what I am seeing this spring. Milton's last start put some definite fear into my eyes. Belisle's last start showed me something I haven't seen from him in awhile. Livingston continues to go out and throw up zero's. It should be about who is getting the job done this year, not based on last year and $$$

LoganBuck
03-13-2007, 02:41 PM
Stuff wise what is the difference between the current manifestation of Milton and Livingston?

KoryMac5
03-13-2007, 03:39 PM
Here is the view on Livingston from the past few years:

A few years ago we invited a lefty to the PG World Showcase in Ft Myers, FL. A good friend and former scout had told us “this kid’s pretty good”. The young pitcher had an advisor (Terry Bross) who also told us about his ability. Well, Terry is a good baseball man who played in the Big Leagues, so we invited the lefty, Bobby Livingston, even though we had never seen him pitch.

At the World Showcase we saw all we needed to see. Bobby was an athletic looking lefty with a silky smooth arm action. Oh yea, he also threw 90 mph with outstanding command of three pitches. We wrote in our report, “Bobby Livingston should be a high draft pick and he may become a major league star”.

We later invited Livingston to the PG National Predraft. He did not throw quite as hard at the Predraft, but it was the same Bobby with a bit less velocity. Once again we wrote pretty much the exact same report. This was a very special lefty, one of the very best. He had a good live fastball, but more than that he was one of the best finesse type lefties (college or high school) we had ever seen. Jeremy Sowers, a year later, would be another in that same class.

Livingston did have some reported makeup issues, but we liked him a lot and that was a major league left arm. Being from West Texas (Lubbock) he didn’t get much attention from anyone other than us. If anything, we went overboard trying to get people to understand just how special we thought this kid was.

About 3 years later:

Livingston is off to a great start this spring for the Seattle Mariners high A club in the California League. Last night he won his 5th game without a loss. He has a 1.33 ERA, pitching in 47.1 innings, giving up only 32 hits and 6 walks with 38 strike outs. That’s the Bobby Livingston we remember. That’s the Bobby Livingston we plan to see in the Big Leagues one of these days.
The above comes from the perfect game website

Livingston still has the same stuff and that nice fluid motion from what I can see. Another bonus is that he is healthier than Milton, much has been written about Milton's knee condition that often flares up at points during the season. I like Livingston he can throw harder if he chooses but he feels his ball has less movement as a result.

flyer85
03-13-2007, 04:22 PM
Stuff wise what is the difference between the current manifestation of Milton and Livingston?better offspeed pitches for Livingston. Milton is an ex-power pitcher whose offspeed stuff was not nearly good enough to make the transition to finesse pitcher.

wheels
03-13-2007, 04:37 PM
Belisle finished with a flourish, tore up winter ball, and has done nothing this spring to diminish those accomplishments.

If not for the huge dollar amount owed Milton, no manager/GM in their right mind would choose him over Belisle.

I say money be damned. Make a bold decision, show us that poor performance will no longer be tolerated.

The best way to change a culture of losing is to lop off the heads of the offending parties. Offer them no quarter in Cincinnati.

Sea Ray
03-13-2007, 04:43 PM
What's the story with Seattle? Why did they give up on him?

dfs
03-13-2007, 05:10 PM
It's almost a mortal lock that ANY PITCHER on this current roster could put up numbers better than Eric Milton.

Last year as bad as Eric Milton was his numbers as a starter were better than
Lohse's and Michalak's numbers as starters.
Milton was better than Claussen's, Rameriz', Kim's, Germano's, Joe Mays and Dave Williams numbers.

Roughly every starting pitcher not named Harang and Arroryo.

wheels
03-13-2007, 06:32 PM
Last year as bad as Eric Milton was his numbers as a starter were better than
Lohse's and Michalak's numbers as starters.
Milton was better than Claussen's, Rameriz', Kim's, Germano's, Joe Mays and Dave Williams numbers.

Roughly every starting pitcher not named Harang and Arroryo.

That's all well and good, but I'd bet anything that Belisle would easily overtake Milton if given the chance.

Sea Ray
03-13-2007, 06:51 PM
That's all well and good, but I'd bet anything that Belisle would easily overtake Milton if given the chance.


Would his back and his stuff hold up for 6 months? If so it'd be a first for him...

Ltlabner
03-13-2007, 09:30 PM
Belisle finished with a flourish, tore up winter ball, and has done nothing this spring to diminish those accomplishments.

Well, that is certinally proof positive that his chronic back issues are healed and he's poised to put up mid 4' ERA and related periferal numbers, over the course of an entire season.

BTW, I like the "lop off there head" and "no quarter" stuff. Zelda or Led Zeppelin IV ?

wheels
03-14-2007, 01:59 AM
Well, that is certinally proof positive that his chronic back issues are healed and he's poised to put up mid 4' ERA and related periferal numbers, over the course of an entire season.

BTW, I like the "lop off there head" and "no quarter" stuff. Zelda or Led Zeppelin IV ?


Milton won't finish the season healthy either. The knee's always going to give him problems, and now arm troubles are starting to crop up. Never mind the fact that when he takes the mound he's an absolute gas can.

He's given up 93 HR in his last three seasons, posting ERA's of 4.75, 6.47, and 5.19. Last season, he only logged 152 IP.

Back problems or not, I'll take my chances on Belisle being able to log at least 150 innings, while putting up better numbers. In 134 IP for the Reds, Matt Belisle has an ERA of 4.22, with 17 HR allowed. Not that his .792 OPS allowed over that span is any great shakes, but he does keep the ball in the park compared to Milton.

My main point is that ridding themselves of Milton is the grandest example of addition by subtraction. Big contract or not, the guy's been significantly below average (to put it mildly) for quite some time now, and it would be worth it to the Reds to stop the bleeding at a time when they really seem to be turning the corner towards respectability.

Simply put, Eric Milton is hindering the club's growth.

Btw....I'm pretty sure "No Quarter" was on Houses of the Holy.

Ltlabner
03-14-2007, 08:02 AM
Milton won't finish the season healthy either. The knee's always going to give him problems, and now arm troubles are starting to crop up.

Back problems or not, I'll take my chances on Belisle being able to log at least 150 innings, while putting up better numbers. In 134 IP for the Reds, Matt Belisle has an ERA of 4.22, with 17 HR allowed. Not that his .792 OPS allowed over that span is any great shakes, but he does keep the ball in the park compared to Milton.

My main point is that ridding themselves of Milton is the grandest example of addition by subtraction. Big contract or not, the guy's been significantly below average (to put it mildly) for quite some time now, and it would be worth it to the Reds to stop the bleeding at a time when they really seem to be turning the corner towards respectability.

Btw....I'm pretty sure "No Quarter" was on Houses of the Holy.

That's a good point about Miltons arm and knee. You are right that he'll probably be on the DL again at some point.

But Belisle has 134 innings over two years. So he's going to go from an average of 67 IP to 150 in one season, with a history of back issues? Not very realistic.

So when Belisle craps out who steps in then? Livingston? Jarred? Salmon? And which one of those guys will continue to produce at mid 4's ERA's or better?

I'd love for them to pick up a bonefide #3 guy they could plug in. That would be great and then I'd say Eric can have an $8.5 million vacation. But without someone who we can count on to produce at a better level it makes no sense to send him packing. I know it's trendy to blast Milton and suggest anyone could be better, and that's just not realistic. And if you send Milton packing, and you get the same (or godforbid worse) production what have you acomplished other than molifying the mob?

BTW - I know No Quarter was on HOTH. I was ribbing you because that post was very colorfull and had lots of dungens and dragons immagry in it. You know, kinda like lots of Zep songs. (Jokes never seem funny when you have to explain them to people.)

dfs
03-14-2007, 11:06 AM
That's all well and good, but I'd bet anything that Belisle would easily overtake Milton if given the chance.

A healthy Belisie? So would I.

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match. The post I responded to said any pitcher in camp would outpitch Milton. Paul Wilson? maybe, but not a sure thing. The Lizard...well, he could but I'm not sure he will. Santos? Now, you're just rolling dice.

Miltie isn't worth the money. Ok. In today's free agent market, Milton probably represents value. Yes, I know how sick that sounds, but go look at the free agent class that he was in... Matt Clement, Jared Wright, Chris Bensen.....Bensen probably ended up being the best of them, but Milton is actually 2 or 3 on the list. And things have just gotten more expensive since then. That's just scary and a cautionary tale about the "value" of free agent pitching.

wheels
03-14-2007, 04:32 PM
That's a good point about Miltons arm and knee. You are right that he'll probably be on the DL again at some point.

But Belisle has 134 innings over two years. So he's going to go from an average of 67 IP to 150 in one season, with a history of back issues? Not very realistic.

So when Belisle craps out who steps in then? Livingston? Jarred? Salmon? And which one of those guys will continue to produce at mid 4's ERA's or better?

I'd love for them to pick up a bonefide #3 guy they could plug in. That would be great and then I'd say Eric can have an $8.5 million vacation. But without someone who we can count on to produce at a better level it makes no sense to send him packing. I know it's trendy to blast Milton and suggest anyone could be better, and that's just not realistic. And if you send Milton packing, and you get the same (or godforbid worse) production what have you acomplished other than molifying the mob?

BTW - I know No Quarter was on HOTH. I was ribbing you because that post was very colorfull and had lots of dungens and dragons immagry in it. You know, kinda like lots of Zep songs. (Jokes never seem funny when you have to explain them to people.)

Maybe I just want as many remnants of DanO's regime gone as soon as possible.

Listening to spring training games, hearing the names Paul Wilson, Eric Milton, Andy Machado et al just elicits the gnashing of my teeth.

Yes, I am a member of the mob, and I want to be mullified.

I demand appeasement, dad gummit!

And yes, I know you were kidding about the Zeppelin comment, thank you for noticing my imagery....No one else ever does.