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TOBTTReds
03-13-2007, 01:13 PM
I've been thinking a lot about the Cards new/weaker pitching staff. I looked at their spring numbers, and they are incredible.

Wainwright - 11.2 ip, 5 h, 0 r
Looper - 11 ip, 10 h, 1 r
Carpenter - 10.2 ip, 10 h, 3 r
Reyes - 5.2 ip, 1 h, 1 r, 4 k
Wells - 5 ip, 7 h, 0 r

This worries me slightly, though it is just spring and all are a sss (small sample size)

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=stl

RedlegNation
03-13-2007, 01:43 PM
Small sample size. I don't expect their rotation to be better than ours.

(I can't believe I just typed that!)

PuffyPig
03-13-2007, 02:55 PM
If you look closely at their stats, they aren't striking out many, and they have been very BABIP lucky.

But it's a good start for them.

TOBTTReds
03-13-2007, 03:38 PM
If you look closely at their stats, they aren't striking out many, and they have been very BABIP lucky.

But it's a good start for them.

True. Wells goes 3 ip today with 3 k's to add to his previously posted numbers.

LincolnparkRed
03-13-2007, 05:15 PM
For some reason I don't see Looper being very effective, think Danny Graves but worse

M2
03-13-2007, 05:23 PM
Dave Duncan's a genius. For that reason alone you should always be scared of the Cardinals' pitching.

Johnny Footstool
03-13-2007, 05:31 PM
Carpenter will be a Cy Young candidate again. Wainwright and Reyes will be a good middle-of-the-rotation combo.

I see Looper getting hurt for a fairly long period of time.

Wells is Wells. Nothing to worry about.

Doc. Scott
03-13-2007, 06:55 PM
Under the Knife said today that it's full speed ahead for Jason Isringhausen. For what that's worth.

vaticanplum
03-13-2007, 07:15 PM
I expect the Cards' entire pitching staff -- starters and bullpen -- to be significantly more effective than it was last year. They had an awful lot of injuries last year, the young ones are settling in, and I think people are underestimating what winning the World Series may do for their confidence and momentum.

wheels
03-13-2007, 08:39 PM
I think the Cardinals are poised to really dominate this season. They actually had a lot of stuff go wrong last year, and still stumbled to a Championship.

Think 95 wins.

pedro
03-13-2007, 08:44 PM
I think the Cardinals are poised to really dominate this season. They actually had a lot of stuff go wrong last year, and still stumbled to a Championship.

Think 95 wins.

I think they're going to have a lot of problems myself. their OF is pretty weak as is their starting pitching.

wheels
03-13-2007, 08:52 PM
I think they're going to have a lot of problems myself. their OF is pretty weak as is their starting pitching.

I really hope so.

I don't have any real basis for my prediction, mind you.

I fear and loathe them, therefore they will win far more games than they should. My hatred fuels them. I've seen it happen.

I was at the Mothers Day Massacre, I was sitting two rows back when they pummelled Lizard mercilessly last season.....The list is too long to type out here, but trust me.

There is something cosmic going on between me and the St. Louis Cardinals.

On a side note, I was just joking when I wondered what TMBS meant. I just needlin' you.

Falls City Beer
03-13-2007, 08:57 PM
The Cards' starting pitching should be nothing but fantastic. Their bullpen could be a real clown car outfit, however. As in, Cincinnati-clown-car-bad.

OnBaseMachine
03-13-2007, 09:04 PM
I look for the Cardinals to hover around .500 all season. Wells and Looper are nothing special, Reyes is overrated, Wainwright was good as a reliever but unproven as a starter, however, Carpenter is a stud.

mth123
03-13-2007, 10:22 PM
Many are writing the Cardinals off because this year's rotation won't have many starters back. Weaver, Mulder and Marquis were awful last year and even Eric Milton would be an improvement. Even if you can't name any starter but Carpenter, the rotation will be better in 2007. For those that can name names, Adam Wainwright looks like a stud in the making in my opinion and Reyes will be a solid number 3. And Kip Wells will be the best pitching signing of the off-season at $4 Million.

Add in healthy years from Izzy, Edmonds, Eckstein, Rolen, etc. and this team looks like a 90+ win team to me.

TOBTTReds
03-13-2007, 11:15 PM
Many are writing the Cardinals off because this year's rotation won't have many starters back. Weaver, Mulder and Marquis were awful last year...........

Add in healthy years from Izzy, Edmonds, Eckstein, Rolen, etc. and this team looks like a 90+ win team to me.

Weaver was a stud for them last year.

Also, you can never depend on healthy years from Edmonds and Rolen. That is like the Cubs depending on Wood and Prior...oh wait, they have.

mth123
03-13-2007, 11:25 PM
Weaver was a stud for them last year.

Weaver for St. Louis:

5.18 ERA, 1.73 HR/9, 4.86 K/9, 2.81 BB/9, 1.50 WHIP in 83.333 innings.

I admit it looks ok (at least the ERA does) compared to his Angel line:

6.29 ERA, 1.83 HR/9, 6.29 K/9, 2.13 BB/9, 1.52 WHIP in 88.666 innings.

pedro
03-13-2007, 11:29 PM
The Cards' starting pitching should be nothing but fantastic. Their bullpen could be a real clown car outfit, however. As in, Cincinnati-clown-car-bad.

1. C. Carpenter
2. K. Wells
3. A. Reyes
4. A. Wainwright
5. B. Looper

I don't know. Carpenter is certainly great and Reyes and Wainwright could be pretty good, but Wells and Looper.... well.....

TOBTTReds
03-13-2007, 11:29 PM
Weaver for St. Louis:

5.18 ERA, 1.73 HR/9, 4.86 K/9, 2.81 BB/9, 1.50 WHIP in 83.333 innings.

I admit it looks ok (at least the ERA does) compared to his Angel line:

6.29 ERA, 1.83 HR/9, 6.29 K/9, 2.13 BB/9, 1.52 WHIP in 88.666 innings.

Whoops. I just pulled that off the top of my head....was it in the playoffs where he was so great?

mth123
03-13-2007, 11:34 PM
Whoops. I just pulled that off the top of my head....was it in the playoffs where he was so great?

He got hot in the post season, but he won't be hard to replace in St. Louis. I think he'll be decent in Seattle though.

westofyou
03-13-2007, 11:37 PM
1. C. Carpenter
2. K. Wells
3. A. Reyes
4. A. Wainwright
5. B. Looper

I don't know. Carpenter is certainly great and Reyes and Wainwright could be pretty good, but Wells and Looper.... well.....

Big Trouble in Arch City when the inning increase hit those converted relievers.

TOBTTReds
03-13-2007, 11:38 PM
He got hot in the post season, but he won't be hard to replace in St. Louis. I think he'll be decent in Seattle though.

Yeah. I do recall being dissapointed he and Marquis didn't re-sign.

Falls City Beer
03-13-2007, 11:39 PM
1. C. Carpenter
2. K. Wells
3. A. Reyes
4. A. Wainwright
5. B. Looper

I don't know. Carpenter is certainly great and Reyes and Wainwright could be pretty good, but Wells and Looper.... well.....

Looper's definitely a question mark. And Wells too to a much lesser extent. But if you've locked down slots 1-3 as well as the Cards have, you can survive some flux out of the 4-5 slots.

Which is the exact reason I clamored all offseason for a bit of stability in the 3rd slot in the Reds' rotation. You simply have to have those three slots locked down over the course of a season. You can fudge 4 and 5, but not 1-3. Instead the Reds have someone in the 3rd slot way worse than either Looper or Wells.

pedro
03-13-2007, 11:42 PM
Looper's definitely a question mark. And Wells too to a much lesser extent. But if you've locked down slots 1-3 as well as the Cards have, you can survive some flux out of the 4-5 slots.

Which is the exact reason I clamored all offseason for a bit of stability in the 3rd slot in the Reds' rotation. You simply have to have those three slots locked down over the course of a season. You can fudge 4 and 5, but not 1-3. Instead the Reds have someone in the 3rd slot way worse than either Looper or Wells.


Looper's never started a game in the majors and Wells is pretty much Eric Milton. I'd be happy to have Reyes or Wainwright though, although they both have a lot still to prove.

OnBaseMachine
03-13-2007, 11:55 PM
Reyes gave up homeruns at a Milton pace last year and also posted a higher OPSA than Milton. I like Reyes, he's a USC boy, but he's overrated IMO.

jmcclain19
03-14-2007, 04:15 AM
I would say Reyes & Weaver are a wash - Wells & Marquis will be a wash & Wainright & Suppan will be a wash.

That still leaves Carpenter and scrub to be named later.

I'd still say that's good for 85ish wins, which very well might win the Central. The lynchpin for the Cardinals, IMO, will be Jim Edmonds. Whether Edmonds is healthy & hitting like old - or the opposite, I think will either push or sink the Cards.

Chip R
03-14-2007, 10:13 AM
Whoops. I just pulled that off the top of my head....was it in the playoffs where he was so great?


And when he pitched against the Reds. :bang: :bang: :bang:

PuffyPig
03-14-2007, 11:03 AM
Looper's definitely a question mark. And Wells too to a much lesser extent. But if you've locked down slots 1-3 as well as the Cards have, you can survive some flux out of the 4-5 slots.



When your #2 and #3 have had no major league success as starters, I can't see how anyone can say "they have been locked down".

Sure, Wainwright has been successful in his one year as a reliever, but he was only fair/good as a starter in the minors, and certainly isn;'t a lock to be a #2 or anywhere close.

Reyes has been bad in the majors, but does show some promise.

On a good starting staff, Wainwright/Reyes would be projected as #4-#5. I'm not saying they don't show promise, but "locked-down"?

Johnny Footstool
03-14-2007, 11:30 AM
When your #2 and #3 have had no major league success as starters, I can't see how anyone can say "they have been locked down".

Sure, Wainwright has been successful in his one year as a reliever, but he was only fair/good as a starter in the minors, and certainly isn;'t a lock to be a #2 or anywhere close.

Reyes has been bad in the majors, but does show some promise.

On a good starting staff, Wainwright/Reyes would be projected as #4-#5. I'm not saying they don't show promise, but "locked-down"?

I agree. Wainwright and Reyes have lots of talent and should be quality pitchers sometime soon, but they also carry plenty of questions.

Falls City Beer
03-14-2007, 11:39 AM
I agree. Wainwright and Reyes have lots of talent and should be quality pitchers sometime soon, but they also carry plenty of questions.
When they start failing at what they do, then I'll be skeptical. But so far, so good.

But their profile, pedigree, and MLB production give me no cause to doubt at this point.

M2
03-14-2007, 11:55 AM
My take is people have worn themselves out pointing out potential holes in past Cardinals/A's staffs only to have those staffs consistently outperform expectations. I'll say it again, Dave Duncan is a genius. It's not convenient for those of us who root for teams competing directly against the Cardinals, but Duncan almost always puts together a good pitching staff.

Could he fail this year? Sure. Would I count on it? No. He's been able to bring along young guys like Wainwright and Reyes. Wells has always had good stuff and, in the hands of a zen master like Duncan, he could be in for a career year.

I learned to stop understimating the Cardinals in 2000.

Falls City Beer
03-14-2007, 11:57 AM
My take is people have worn themselves out pointing out potential holes in past Cardinals/A's staffs .


Big Dave had a terrible run in the late 90s, however.

And generally I find people have underestimated the Astros for 10 years running.

PuffyPig
03-14-2007, 12:25 PM
When they start failing at what they do, then I'll be skeptical. But so far, so good.

But their profile, pedigree, and MLB production give me no cause to doubt at this point.

Reyes has failed badly as a major league starter, to date. It may be nothing but growing pains that most pitchers have when they start pitching in a major league rotation for the first time. Growing pains that Wainwright might now encounter. The fact remains that neither has been a successful major league starter to date.

I wish you would give Bailey the same consideration you give the Card's youngsters. He hasn't failed, yet you remain very skeptical.

PuffyPig
03-14-2007, 12:32 PM
Reyes gave up homeruns at a Milton pace last year and also posted a higher OPSA than Milton. I like Reyes, he's a USC boy, but he's overrated IMO.

Higher OPSA than Milton? :confused: How can that be true?:confused:

I would have bet that DiMaggio's record would be broken first.

And by a Card's phenom no less?

Dave Duncan must have taken the day off when he was supposed to turn Reyes into Carpenter. Instead, Reyes watched videos of Marquis.:cry:

TOBTTReds
03-14-2007, 02:50 PM
Also, you can never depend on healthy years from Edmonds and Rolen. That is like the Cubs depending on Wood and Prior...oh wait, they have.

Edmonds and Encarnacion will be starting on the DL this year.

So it has started already.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2007/news/story?id=2798283

pedro
03-14-2007, 02:54 PM
My take is people have worn themselves out pointing out potential holes in past Cardinals/A's staffs only to have those staffs consistently outperform expectations. I'll say it again, Dave Duncan is a genius. It's not convenient for those of us who root for teams competing directly against the Cardinals, but Duncan almost always puts together a good pitching staff.

Could he fail this year? Sure. Would I count on it? No. He's been able to bring along young guys like Wainwright and Reyes. Wells has always had good stuff and, in the hands of a zen master like Duncan, he could be in for a career year.

I learned to stop understimating the Cardinals in 2000.

OTOH, even though they won the WS last year, prior to the season everyone was extolling their virtues and they barely made the playoffs so while I agree that Duncan is a genius I wouldn't say they out performed expectations. Well except for the whole winning the world series thing.

RBA
05-10-2009, 02:15 PM
I really hope so.

I don't have any real basis for my prediction, mind you.

I fear and loathe them, therefore they will win far more games than they should. My hatred fuels them. I've seen it happen.

I was at the Mothers Day Massacre, I was sitting two rows back when they pummelled Lizard mercilessly last season.....The list is too long to type out here, but trust me.

There is something cosmic going on between me and the St. Louis Cardinals.

On a side note, I was just joking when I wondered what TMBS meant. I just needlin' you.

Mother's Day again. Reds going for the sweep.

_Sir_Charles_
05-10-2009, 10:20 PM
Mothers Day Massacre. I saw this referenced during the game thread too. What are you guys talking about? Wheels said last season (which would be 2006 based on his post date of 3-13-07) and against the cards. The only blowout I see with Elizardo was August 7th when he went 1.2 innings and got shelled for 7 runs, 6 hits with 2 dingers. Is this the game he's referring to? And if so...why "mothers day" massacre? Just curious guys.

oregonred
05-10-2009, 11:00 PM
Mothers Day Massacre. I saw this referenced during the game thread too. What are you guys talking about? Wheels said last season (which would be 2006 based on his post date of 3-13-07) and against the cards. The only blowout I see with Elizardo was August 7th when he went 1.2 innings and got shelled for 7 runs, 6 hits with 2 dingers. Is this the game he's referring to? And if so...why "mothers day" massacre? Just curious guys.

The "MDM" was legendary and many still have the scars to prove it... About 5 years ago, although it seemed like yesterday, when the Reds and Danny Graves blew about a 6-7 run lead in the ninth against the Cards and lost in unbelieveable fashion on Mother's Day in front of a stunned crowd and Redszone game chat.

paintmered
05-10-2009, 11:15 PM
The "MDM" was legendary and many still have the scars to prove it... About 5 years ago, although it seemed like yesterday, when the Reds and Danny Graves blew about a 6-7 run lead in the ninth against the Cards and lost in unbelieveable fashion on Mother's Day in front of a stunned crowd and Redszone game chat.

The wound, it still hurts.

westofyou
05-10-2009, 11:17 PM
The "MDM" was legendary and many still have the scars to prove it... About 5 years ago, although it seemed like yesterday, when the Reds and Danny Graves blew about a 6-7 run lead in the ninth against the Cards and lost in unbelieveable fashion on Mother's Day in front of a stunned crowd and Redszone game chat.

It was 7 years ago ain't time funny? Crappy Crowd too


Cardinals 5, Reds 8.

CARDINALS 8TH: Martinez walked; Renteria flied to right;
Robinson forced Martinez (second to shortstop); Marrero singled
to left [Robinson to second]; GRAVES REPLACED WHITE (PITCHING);
Polanco doubled to left [Robinson scored, Marrero scored]; Vina
doubled to right [Polanco scored]; Drew homered [Vina scored];
Stechschulte struck out; 5 R, 4 H, 0 E, 0 LOB. Cardinals 10,
Reds 8.



St. Louis Cardinals 10, Cincinnati Reds 8

Day

Game Played on Sunday, May 12, 2002 (D) at Cinergy Field

STL N 0 0 0 0 3 2 0 5 0 - 10 14 0
CIN N 6 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 - 8 9 1

BATTING

St. Louis Cardinals AB R H RBI BB SO PO A
Vina 2b 4 1 2 1 0 0 2 2
Drew rf 5 1 2 4 0 0 1 0
Pujols 3b 3 0 1 0 0 1 1 1
Matthews p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Crudale p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Perez ph 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Stechschulte p 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Isringhausen p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Edmonds cf 5 0 0 0 0 4 3 0
Martinez 1b 4 1 1 0 1 0 11 2
Renteria ss 5 2 2 0 0 0 1 3
Robinson lf 4 2 2 1 0 0 0 0
Marrero c 4 1 2 1 0 1 7 2
T. Smith p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Hackman p 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Veres p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Polanco ph,3b 3 2 2 3 0 0 1 2
Totals 40 10 14 10 1 8 27 13

FIELDING -
DP: 2. Martinez-Marrero-Martinez, Polanco-Martinez-Polanco-Martinez-Vina-Polanco.

BATTING -
2B: Vina 2 (12,off Dessens,off Graves); Martinez (5,off Dessens); Polanco (4,off
Graves).
HR: Drew (5,8th inning off Graves 1 on 2 out).
HBP: Vina (3,by Dessens).
Team LOB: 5.

Cincinnati Reds AB R H RBI BB SO PO A
Guerrero 2b,ss 5 0 0 0 0 0 1 4
Larkin ss 2 2 2 0 0 0 0 1
Dawkins ss 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Brower p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Casey ph 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Encarnacion cf 4 2 1 0 1 1 1 0
Kearns rf 4 0 0 0 0 2 3 0
Dunn 1b 2 1 0 0 2 1 11 0
Boone 3b 3 1 2 2 0 0 0 4
LaRue c 4 1 2 2 0 0 8 0
Taylor lf 3 1 1 4 0 0 2 0
White p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Graves p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Walker ph,2b 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1
Dessens p 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1
Clark lf 2 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Totals 34 8 9 8 4 5 27 11

FIELDING -
DP: 1. Boone-Guerrero-Dunn.
E: Dunn (1).

BATTING -
2B: Larkin (6,off T. Smith).
HR: Taylor (2,1st inning off T. Smith 3 on 2 out).
HBP: Boone (3,by T. Smith).
IBB: Dunn (2,by Hackman).
Team LOB: 4.

BASERUNNING -
SB: Encarnacion (7,2nd base off Hackman/Marrero); Boone (6,2nd base off Crudale/Marrero).

PITCHING

St. Louis Cardinals IP H R ER BB SO HR BFP
T. Smith 1 5 8 8 3 1 1 12
Hackman 2 2 0 0 1 0 0 8
Veres 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 3
Matthews 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1
Crudale 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 5
Stechschulte W(4-1) 2 1 0 0 0 3 0 7
Isringhausen SV(8) 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 3
Totals 9 9 8 8 4 5 1 39

T. Smith faced 2 batters in the 2nd inning
Matthews faced 1 batter in the 5th inning
HBP: T. Smith (1,Boone).
IBB: Hackman (3,Dunn).

Cincinnati Reds IP H R ER BB SO HR BFP
Dessens 5 10 5 4 0 4 0 26
White 2.2 1 2 2 1 2 0 9
Graves L(1-1) 0.1 3 3 3 0 1 1 4
Brower 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 3
Totals 9 14 10 9 1 8 1 42

Dessens faced 4 batters in the 6th inning
HBP: Dessens (3,Vina).

Umpires: HP - Larry Vanover, 1B - Angel Hernandez, 2B - Laz Diaz, 3B - Randy Marsh

Time of Game: 3:26 Attendance: 20622

KronoRed
05-10-2009, 11:47 PM
The 7 runs by the Cardijnals in the 9th was on May 2nd 2005, a Monday.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN200505020.shtml
Fun fact, only 4 days later Paul Wilson and crew allowed 10 runs in the 1st inning to the Dodgers.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN200505060.shtml

Chip R
05-11-2009, 12:06 AM
I believe I remember a game where the Reds played the Cards in StL a year or so later that turned out quite the opposite. It actually may heve been on Father's Day.

TOBTTReds
05-11-2009, 12:19 AM
The 7 runs by the Cardijnals in the 9th was on May 2nd 2005, a Monday.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN200505020.shtml
Fun fact, only 4 days later Paul Wilson and crew allowed 10 runs in the 1st inning to the Dodgers.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN200505060.shtml

I was at that second game. And I know exactly where I was for that first one. Devastating and unbelievable.

Jpup
05-11-2009, 08:34 AM
I've actually went to the Mother's Day game in 06 and 07. I'm a good son. I usually stay away from Mom on her day. ;)