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reds44
03-13-2007, 10:38 PM
Going into the spring we all had penciled Freel in the OF somewhere (whether it be in RF or CF), with the possibility of Hamilton starting on opening day seeing like more of a realistic option each day, what would that do to our lineup?

I think Hamilton would push Griffey to RF.

That makes the defense look like this.

C: Ross
1B: Hatteberg
2B: Phillips
SS: Seabass
3B: EE
LF: Dunn
CF: Hamilton
RF: Griffey

Now without a true leadoff guy of those 8, what does the Opening Day lineup look like.

I'll take a stab.

1. Phillips 2B
2. Hatteberg 1B
3. Dunn LF
4. EE 3B
5. Griffey RF
6. Ross C
7. Hamilton CF
8. Seabass SS

Thoughts? What would your lineup be?

mth123
03-13-2007, 10:41 PM
2 Options. I like the first one best.

1. Hamilton CF
2. Dunn LF
3. EDE 3B
4. Griffey RF
5. Ross C
6. Phillips 2B
7. Hatte 1b
8. Gonzalez SS

or

1. Hamilton CF
2. Hatte 1B
3. Dunn LF
4. EDE 3B
5. Griffey RF
6. Ross C
7. Phillips 2B
8. Gonzalez SS

geniusMoment
03-13-2007, 11:00 PM
What's with people calling Gonzalez Seabass?

WMR
03-13-2007, 11:31 PM
Is anyone else doing it besides Reds44? :lol:

reds44
03-13-2007, 11:31 PM
Is anyone else doing it besides Reds44? :lol:
Yes, I'm not the only one doing it.

blumj
03-13-2007, 11:43 PM
What's with people calling Gonzalez Seabass?
Kevin Millar started that when they were Marlins.

justincredible
03-13-2007, 11:46 PM
1. Hamilton CF
2. Dunn LF
3. EDE 3B
4. Griffey RF
5. Phillips 2B
6. Ross C
7. Hatte 1b
8. Gonzalez SS

Red in Atl
03-14-2007, 02:06 AM
1. Hamilton CF
2. Dunn LF
3. EDE 3B
4. Griffey RF
5. Phillips 2B
6. Ross C
7. Hatte 1b
8. Gonzalez SS

I like the looks of that...god I hope Hammy's for real!

tbball10
03-14-2007, 02:11 AM
i think it is more likely to be phillips batting leadoff than hamilton, based on the way they have batted them so far in spring training... and i think hamilton will be around 6th or 7th

redlegs7089
03-14-2007, 02:51 AM
i like conine over hatty

RBA
03-14-2007, 03:04 AM
Except Catchers bat 8th.

jmcclain19
03-14-2007, 04:38 AM
I think the worry w/ Hamilton starting every day, is that at some point in the very near future he's going to turn into a pumpkin.

We're talking about a player who literally has no scouting reports out there - and I highly doubt teams are "scouting ahead" to see what he is and isn't hitting. Right now it's just trial & error with whomever is on the mound.

I could definitely see his pure raw talent keeping his hot streak going into the season - but once teams get a bead on him it'll be a loud thud when he hits bottom. I love his talent, and his potential and I have no doubts that he'll eventually work thru it. But lets not forget that big league pitchers still find ways to get the very best hitters in baseball out six times out of ten and that's going to catch up to Hamilton when the real games start. Exposing him to 500ABs while maintaining the facade that "We're competing" seems odd to me.

My twisted sick hope for the season - is the Reds totally bomb out of the gate - forcing a Twins of 2006 midseason retooling, meaning Conine/Hatte/Weathers/Milton/Stanton/etc are sent to find new homes while Votto, Bailey & Hamilton come up to fill in and let the real rebuilding era begin. This Krivsky ploding along with aging vets dancing and hoping for 82 wins is not beneficial long term.

doug flynn
03-14-2007, 04:45 AM
Jerry wouldn't put the added pressure of batting lead-off on Hamilton, imho.

sonny
03-14-2007, 05:50 AM
I'm not liking Dunner at the 2 hole. i love Hatte there, he's a good contact hitter who draws enough walks. Hamilton would be best platooning with Freel for the time being (until they trade freel for a 39 year old backup catcher)

bucksfan2
03-14-2007, 10:04 AM
I think I stick Hamilton in the 2 or 6 hole. I think he needs a little protection when he is first starting off. As he starts to acclimate himself you may move him into the 3 or 5 hole hoping he can produce.

Will M
03-14-2007, 10:17 AM
I think I stick Hamilton in the 2 or 6 hole. I think he needs a little protection when he is first starting off. As he starts to acclimate himself you may move him into the 3 or 5 hole hoping he can produce.

Agreed. Batting any rookie leadoff or 3-4-5 is a lot of pressure.

Will M
03-14-2007, 10:23 AM
RF Freel
CF Hamilton
LF Dunn
3B EE
1B Votto
2B Phillips
C Ross
SS Gonzalez

Bench - Valentin, Hat, Conine, Castro, Deno & one other.

DL - Griffey and Keppinger

1. This BS about Griffey not needing time to get ready bothers me. I saw last year how he struggled after time off due to injuries. Since he hasn't played a game yet I don't want him in my starting lineup.

2. The Reds need Votto's power. Hat and Conine are fine bench players but they are not starters.

TRF
03-14-2007, 11:00 AM
Agreed. Batting any rookie leadoff or 3-4-5 is a lot of pressure.

I disagree about leadoff. in the UNLIKELY event Hamilton is made a starter, leadoff is a great place for him. A steady diet of fastballs before he gets hit with a good out pitch. bat him lower, and he can be pitched around more.

Team Clark
03-14-2007, 11:06 AM
Agreed. Batting any rookie leadoff or 3-4-5 is a lot of pressure.

I think this kid (26? :laugh: ) could overcome any of that. Baseball is sooooo far down on his daily pressure list.

1. Phillips (Best Baserunner, Possible SB threat)
2. Hatty (High OBP and great bat control)
3. Hamilton (Keeps you from having a lot of DP's)
4. Dunn (If he doesn't whack one 675 ft he can set the table again for 5-6)
5. Griffey (This works for Griff is EE stays consistent)
6. EE (PLEASE stay consistent)
7. ME (Oh sorry about that) Ross
8. Sea Bass

aodaniel
03-14-2007, 11:35 AM
Team Clark, given that you likely have better information than most of us, I'm curious how you feel about Hamilton in general. Also, I'm sure the D-Rays would love to have him back after what he's done this spring, but do you know how they felt at the time when they lost him in the Rule 5 draft? Had they given up on him?

BigRed
03-14-2007, 11:37 AM
As long as he is here, Freel will play a lot spelling different people and be at leadoff at least 3-4 days per week. Without him, this is what I think it should look like.

1. Phillips 2b
2. Hamilton CF
3. Encarnacion 3b
4. Dunn LF
5. Griffey CF
6. Hatteberg or Conine 1b
7. Gonzalez SS
8. Ross C

In response to an earlier post, there is no reason to think that it is a guarantee that Hamilton will hit rock bottom once the league sees him a few times. If he has the superstar tools that everyone believes, yes there will be slumps, but he should be able to keep it going reasonably well. Other superstars have been able to adjust. I am going out on a limb and predicting Rookie of the Year.

bucksfan2
03-14-2007, 11:50 AM
If I were manager here would be my order

1. Phillips (best baserunner on the club a little of a free swinger but could benefit from hitting early in the order
2. Hamilton (speed and power, has shown he can hit in spring)
3. EE (best pure hitter on the club)
4. Dunn (hopefully it clicked this offseason, could be VERY dangerous)
5. Jr. (not what he was but still a respected hitter)
6. Hatty (professional hitter, will work count. could hit #2 but Hamilton has more upside
7. Ross (at least hes better than LaRue)
8. Gonzo

In a perfect world Hamilton works out and Freel is traded. Votto is up by midseason and either Hatty or Conine are traded. Deno is the 4th outfielder and they let Gil have a shot at the 5th OF as well as back up IF.

Puffy
03-14-2007, 12:04 PM
If I were the manager (and Hamilton were starting which I'm not sure I'd do) but if I were here would be my lineup

1. Phillips 2b
2. Dunn LF
3. Encarnacion 3b
4. Griffey RF
5. Hamilton CF
6. Hatteberg 1b
7. Ross C
8. Gonzalez SS

versus lefties:

1. Phillips 2b
2. Dunn LF
3. Encarnacion 3b
4. Griffey RF
5. Conine 1b
6. Hamilton CF
7. Ross C
8. Gonzalez SS

Team Clark
03-14-2007, 12:05 PM
Team Clark, given that you likely have better information than most of us, I'm curious how you feel about Hamilton in general. Also, I'm sure the D-Rays would love to have him back after what he's done this spring, but do you know how they felt at the time when they lost him in the Rule 5 draft? Had they given up on him?

Considering how little he has played there isn't much info anybody can give about Josh Hamilton. There are probably a few teams that may have scratched their head and thought maybe they should have at least "looked into" taking him. Wayne, IMO, took a huge gamble and it's panning out so far. There is A LONG way to go in ST and the regular season brings new expectations on players. No real scoop here, but there isn't much to tell since most of his playing time is happening right before our eyes.

EddieMilner
03-14-2007, 12:28 PM
I think this kid (26? :laugh: ) could overcome any of that. Baseball is sooooo far down on his daily pressure list.

1. Phillips (Best Baserunner, Possible SB threat)
2. Hatty (High OBP and great bat control)
3. Hamilton (Keeps you from having a lot of DP's)
4. Dunn (If he doesn't whack one 675 ft he can set the table again for 5-6)
5. Griffey (This works for Griff is EE stays consistent)
6. EE (PLEASE stay consistent)
7. ME (Oh sorry about that) Ross
8. Sea Bass

I like this line up a lot, especially since it puts Freel back into playing 3 or 4 games a week (where I feel he performs best). Also by putting Hatty second in the order, it gives a chance for the meat of our lineup to see a lot of pitches. If this is our lineup this year, I would say we would have as much scoring potential as we had before "the trade"*.

* Disclaimer - This is assuming the following:
1. Hamilton isn't Cinderella.
2. EE can play consitent
3. Grif plays like he's closer to 30 and farther away from 40.
4. Grif is healthy for most of the year.

If I was choosing stocks with those assumptions, I wouldn't sleep very well.

MikeS21
03-14-2007, 12:38 PM
I think the worry w/ Hamilton starting every day, is that at some point in the very near future he's going to turn into a pumpkin.

We're talking about a player who literally has no scouting reports out there - and I highly doubt teams are "scouting ahead" to see what he is and isn't hitting. Right now it's just trial & error with whomever is on the mound.

I could definitely see his pure raw talent keeping his hot streak going into the season - but once teams get a bead on him it'll be a loud thud when he hits bottom. I love his talent, and his potential and I have no doubts that he'll eventually work thru it. But lets not forget that big league pitchers still find ways to get the very best hitters in baseball out six times out of ten and that's going to catch up to Hamilton when the real games start. Exposing him to 500ABs while maintaining the facade that "We're competing" seems odd to me.

My twisted sick hope for the season - is the Reds totally bomb out of the gate - forcing a Twins of 2006 midseason retooling, meaning Conine/Hatte/Weathers/Milton/Stanton/etc are sent to find new homes while Votto, Bailey & Hamilton come up to fill in and let the real rebuilding era begin. This Krivsky ploding along with aging vets dancing and hoping for 82 wins is not beneficial long term.
I, too, am rooting for Josh Hamilton, but there's no way I think Hamilton will carry this very far into the regular season.

First, as jm points out in his post that I quoted from, teams are still trial and error with no scouting reports on Hamilton.

Secondly, Spring Training is a time for pitchers to work on pitches (Re-establishing a feel for gripping the baseball, working on pitching motion, developing velocity, etc.) They aren't as wooried about throwing certain pitches in a certain situation as they are on using all their pitches. Hamilton is seeing more fastballs now than he will see the rest of the season.

Finally, I think Hamilton will continue to have a good spring because pitchers are coming up to that "dead arm" period that strikes every spring.

But once the bell rings and games start to count, Hamilton's abilities will be better defined and pitchers will start to exploit that four year lay-off.

Having said all of that, there are a couple things I think Hamilton has going for him. First, is his patience at the plate. If he continues to draw walks, and not swing at bad pitches, it will help him immensely. Secondly, he has proven to me that despite the lay-off, the baseball ability is still there. It probably won't be 2007, but I believe if he can stay clean drug-wise, he will become a better than average player for the Reds.

membengal
03-14-2007, 01:12 PM
Just to be clear, I don't think anyone impressed with Hamilton thusfar thinks he will continue to have an average around .571, OBP over .600 or an OPS of 1.400.

But...what MIGHT a reasonable expectation be? Could he OPS .800+? With the way he plays defense, that would be hella valuable. And an OPS of .800+ is all of a sudden not too crazy a thought with him...

Natty Redlocks
03-14-2007, 01:36 PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict an MVP for Hamilton. And, possibly, a special dispensation by the HOF committee to go ahead and induct him after his rookie season.

I think it's safe to go ahead and DFA Junior now. Let the good times roll!