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Triples
03-15-2007, 12:35 PM
OK, what I am I missing. I thought there were split squad games at 1:05 and 7:05 today. I can't find anything abou line ups etc for the 1:05 game. What gives?

George Anderson
03-15-2007, 12:43 PM
OK, what I am I missing. I thought there were split squad games at 1:05 and 7:05 today. I can't find anything abou line ups etc for the 1:05 game. What gives?

Hey if your a true Hoosier like me you will be watching basketball instead!!!:D

Triples
03-15-2007, 01:03 PM
George:

Born and bred in Indiana, but I stop short of saying I'm a Hoosier :thumbdown ...don't want anyone to get the wrong idea. I bleed Black and Gold!! :thumbup: Besides, my first love is baseball, unfortunately not basketball...although I filled out a couple pool brackets just in case my boys from Lafayette can upset a couple teams.:beerme:

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 01:08 PM
If you want to follow along, here is the Gameday (http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/y2006/gd.html?2007_03_15_cinmlb_pitmlb_1&brand=mlb).

I doubt we'll get info anywhere else considering it's a "B" game.

Triples
03-15-2007, 01:11 PM
Thanks, do you know if the night game will be broadcast/webcast?

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 01:12 PM
BTW, lineups are:

Hopper, CF
Gonzalez, A, SS
Phillips, 2B
Conine, 1B
Denorfia, LF
Gil, 3B
Wise, RF
Moeller, C
Saarloos, P


Duffy, CF
Wilson, SS
McLouth, RF
LaRoche, 1B
Bautista, 3B
Ryan, LF
Kelly, 2B
Cota, C
Maholm, P

robmadden1
03-15-2007, 01:12 PM
MLB Gameday for the 1:05pm game: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/y2006/gd.html?2007_03_15_cinmlb_pitmlb_1&brand=mlb

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 01:14 PM
Thanks, do you know if the night game will be broadcast/webcast?

Looks like Gameday Audio (http://mlb.mlb.com/mediacenter/index.jsp#20070315) will be up.

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:15 PM
Top 1ST B:0 S:0 O:1
Norris Hopper grounds out, shortstop Jack Wilson to first baseman Adam LaRoche.

Top 1ST B:0 S:3 O:2
Alex Gonzalez called out on strikes.

Top 1ST B:0 S:0 O:3
Brandon Phillips grounds out, shortstop Jack Wilson to first baseman Adam LaRoche.

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 01:15 PM
Top 1ST B:0 S:0 O:1
Norris Hopper grounds out, shortstop Jack Wilson to first baseman Adam LaRoche.

Top 1ST B:0 S:3 O:2
Alex Gonzalez called out on strikes.

Top 1ST B:0 S:0 O:3
Brandon Phillips grounds out, shortstop Jack Wilson to first baseman Adam LaRoche.


Whoops... a little late.

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:16 PM
Thanks to the weather. Yesterday a high of 65 to a snow and ice storm today. I do not have student teaching! So I can post from gameday if necessary! March Madness and Reds baseball could it get any better? Well, probably but lets not be greedy.

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:17 PM
Top 1ST B:0 S:0 O:1
Norris Hopper grounds out, shortstop Jack Wilson to first baseman Adam LaRoche.

Top 1ST B:0 S:3 O:2
Alex Gonzalez called out on strikes.

Top 1ST B:0 S:0 O:3
Brandon Phillips grounds out, shortstop Jack Wilson to first baseman Adam LaRoche.


Whoops... a little late.

Iam if you wanna handle it have at it!!!

robmadden1
03-15-2007, 01:18 PM
The audio is for tonights game.

Matt700wlw
03-15-2007, 01:18 PM
Only 1 sport is important today....and it involves guys in shorts, an orange ball, and a hoop.

:D

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:19 PM
Gameday is being ridiculously slow! Wish I had that job

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:20 PM
Louisville pummeling Stanford is not a game that is a massacre, somewhere Drexel is crying

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 01:20 PM
Iam if you wanna handle it have at it!!!

Sure. I've got a little time today. :)

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:27 PM
Saarloos struggled in the first lucky to get out of it with only 1 run

VR
03-15-2007, 01:27 PM
Pirates up 1-0 after 1, leadoff double by Duffy and a couple of FC's(or so it seems):confused:

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:31 PM
Deno strikes out on three pitches, somehwhere Reggie Taylor and Corky Romano feel an itch simultaneously

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:32 PM
Top 2ND B:0 S:0 O:1
Jeff Conine grounds out, shortstop Jack Wilson to first baseman Adam LaRoche.

Top 2ND B:0 S:3 O:2
Chris Denorfia strikes out swinging.

Top 2ND B:0 S:0 O:3
Jerry Gil grounds out, shortstop Jack Wilson to first baseman Adam LaRoche.


Paging Wallaman

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:36 PM
Saarloos a better second inning but in the context of the bottom of the batting order

Bottom 2ND B:0 S:3 O:1
Don Kelly called out on strikes.

Bottom 2ND B:0 S:0 O:2
Humberto Cota grounds out, second baseman Brandon Phillips to first baseman Jeff Conine.

Bottom 2ND B:0 S:3 O:3
Paul Maholm strikes out swinging.

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:38 PM
Very tough customers for Maholm this inning
Wise
Moeller
Saarloos

dabvu2498
03-15-2007, 01:42 PM
Louisville pummeling Stanford is not a game that is a massacre, somewhere Drexel is crying

Actually, somewhere the Drexel Dragons are turning in their uniforms because NC State beat them in the 1st round of the NIT.

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 01:43 PM
Sure. I've got a little time today. :)

Whoops... shouldn't have said that...

Work keeps getting in the way. :p:

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 01:45 PM
Top 3RD B:0 S:0 O:1
Dewayne Wise grounds out, second baseman Don Kelly to first baseman Adam LaRoche.

Top 3RD B:0 S:3 O:2
Chad Moeller called out on strikes.

Top 3RD B:0 S:0 O:2
Kirk Saarloos singles on a ground ball to shortstop Jack Wilson.

Top 3RD B:0 S:0 O:3
Norris Hopper grounds into a force out, shortstop Jack Wilson to second baseman Don Kelly. Kirk Saarloos out at 2nd.

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:46 PM
Dewayne proves yet again proving he is a walking contradiction for how can someone named "Dewayne" really be "Wise" even if its not spelled correctly. The sage like one grounds to second

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:48 PM
Why is Chad Moeller on the team? Honestly couldnt the bullpen catcher throw some guys out at second and bat a buck fifty?

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:49 PM
Kirk Saarloos with the only Reds hit btw

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:53 PM
Actually, somewhere the Drexel Dragons are turning in their uniforms because NC State beat them in the 1st round of the NIT.

Is there any real motivation for the NIT though? I mean seriously how as a coach can you get your team to be motivated for that?

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 01:55 PM
Bottom 3RD B:0 S:0 O:0
Chris Duffy singles on a bunt ground ball to pitcher Kirk Saarloos.

Bottom 3RD B:0 S:0 O:1
Jack Wilson flies out to left fielder Chris Denorfia.

Bottom 3RD B:0 S:0 O:1
Nate McLouth doubles (1) on a line drive to right fielder Dewayne Wise. Chris Duffy to 3rd.

Bottom 3RD B:0 S:0 O:2
Adam LaRoche grounds out, first baseman Jeff Conine to pitcher Kirk Saarloos. Chris Duffy scores. Nate McLouth to 3rd.

Bottom 3RD B:0 S:3 O:3
Jose Bautista called out on strikes.

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:56 PM
Fiddlesticks, Wallaman you beat me to it. Its all yours

Whats with this one hit and fielders choice stuff?

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 01:56 PM
Is there any real motivation for the NIT though? I mean seriously how as a coach can you get your team to be motivated for that?

Especially not after an NCAA snub. It's like working hard enough for the majors only to be left stagnating in AAA.

Chip R
03-15-2007, 01:57 PM
Is there any real motivation for the NIT though? I mean seriously how as a coach can you get your team to be motivated for that?


You get to the Final 4 and you are playing in the Garden. One could also say that being NIT champ is better than getting beat in the 1st round of the NCAAs.

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 01:58 PM
I don't know if anyone else has noticed this but Maholm is in the 4th innning and has not thrown a ball yet. 16 strikes in 3 innings? Is this a mistake?

texasdave
03-15-2007, 01:59 PM
Is there any real motivation for the NIT though? I mean seriously how as a coach can you get your team to be motivated for that?

This is Drexel we are talking about so let me give it a stab:

1)The NCAA thinks we suck so let's prove them wrong.
2)This could be the last home game for some of you guys.
3)Alot of folks will be watching on ESPN. (not too common an occurence for teams like Drexel.
4)Let's win a couple of games so we can go up to NYC and party in Madison Square Gardens.

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 02:00 PM
Fiddlesticks, Wallaman you beat me to it. Its all yours
Assuming I can keep up with it now. ;)


Whats with this one hit and fielders choice stuff?

We might as well get used to that with Saarloos. He'll put most of them on the ground. Hopefully our "A" team will be able to do something with them.

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 02:00 PM
You get to the Final 4 and you are playing in the Garden. One could also say that being NIT champ is better than getting beat in the 1st round of the NCAAs.

That's not bad I suppose. I guess if someone asked me to play tiddlywinks in the Taj Mahal I'd bite.

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 02:04 PM
This is Drexel we are talking about so let me give it a stab:

1)The NCAA thinks we suck so let's prove them wrong.
2)This could be the last home game for some of you guys.
3)Alot of folks will be watching on ESPN. (not too common an occurence for teams like Drexel.
4)Let's win a couple of games so we can go up to NYC and party in Madison Square Gardens.

The 1st one is good but I think they knew they were stiffed due to the fact they were not a "Stanford" type school

The second one is what I would go with. Last game, graduating seniors etc

3) ESPN is great but who really watches the NIT besides diehard CB fans?

4) NYC party is good motivation, but a the Garden is a consolation prize at best

redsmetz
03-15-2007, 02:04 PM
Only 1 sport is important today....and it involves guys in shorts, an orange ball, and a hoop.

:D

Something like this, right?

http://www.gfg.com/baseball/57tbb77.jpg

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 02:05 PM
I don't know if anyone else has noticed this but Maholm is in the 4th innning and has not thrown a ball yet. 16 strikes in 3 innings? Is this a mistake?

Gameday isn't really recording balls and strikes yet. It'll only give the results of each AB.

Probably due to the fact that we're not even supposed to be able to see it in the first place. ;)

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 02:06 PM
Top 4TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Alex Gonzalez singles on a ground ball to shortstop Jack Wilson.

Top 4TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Brandon Phillips flies out to center fielder Chris Duffy.

Top 4TH B:0 S:0 O:2
Jeff Conine grounds out, pitcher Paul Maholm to first baseman Adam LaRoche. Alex Gonzalez to 2nd.

Top 4TH B:0 S:0 O:3
With Chris Denorfia batting, Alex Gonzalez picked off and caught stealing 3rd base, pitcher Paul Maholm to shortstop Jack Wilson to third baseman Jose Bautista.

dabvu2498
03-15-2007, 02:07 PM
Is there any real motivation for the NIT though? I mean seriously how as a coach can you get your team to be motivated for that?

They had five seniors (presumably playing in their last basketball game ever), played in front of a full house at home and got beat by a mediocre ACC team.

Unfortunately, they didn't do anything to prove the selection committee wrong.

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 02:11 PM
They had five seniors (presumably playing in their last basketball game ever), played in front of a full house at home and got beat by a mediocre ACC team.

Unfortunately, they didn't do anything to prove the selection committee wrong.

True, but ya gotta think they would have made a better showing than Stanford (how does one get in with that record?)

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 02:13 PM
True, but ya gotta think they would have made a better showing than Stanford (how does one get in with that record?)

I think they (Drexel) would've put up a better fight.

The result would've been the same, though.

I think they simply lost interest when they lost the big bid.

Chip R
03-15-2007, 02:14 PM
The 1st one is good but I think they knew they were stiffed due to the fact they were not a "Stanford" type school

The second one is what I would go with. Last game, graduating seniors etc

3) ESPN is great but who really watches the NIT besides diehard CB fans?

4) NYC party is good motivation, but a the Garden is a consolation prize at best

Scouts, GMs watch it. Contrary to popular belief, kids from BCS conferences aren't the only ones playing in the NBA and Europe.

Perhaps but it is the Mecca of basketball. You get more attention playing there than you would if the game were in Kansas City.

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 02:16 PM
Saarloos is making Belisle look pretty strong today

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 02:17 PM
Bottom 4TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Michael Ryan doubles (1) on a line drive to right fielder Dewayne Wise.

Bottom 4TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Don Kelly singles on a line drive to right fielder Dewayne Wise. Michael Ryan to 3rd.

Bottom 4TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Humberto Cota homers (1) on a fly ball to left field. Michael Ryan scores. Don Kelly scores.

Bottom 4TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Paul Maholm flies out to center fielder Norris Hopper.

Bottom 4TH B:0 S:0 O:2
Chris Duffy flies out to right fielder Dewayne Wise.

Bottom 4TH B:0 S:0 O:3
Jack Wilson flies out to right fielder Dewayne Wise.


It's gettin' ugly folks... good thing it's a "B" game.

We need our rooks! Bring in Hamilton, Votto and Janish!

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 02:17 PM
double post

jesusfan
03-15-2007, 02:19 PM
I guess we'll see how Livingston pitches tonight compared to Saarloos and his awful display today...

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 02:21 PM
I guess we'll see how Livingston pitches tonight compared to Saarloos and his awful display today...

I do remember us lighting up Arroyo for 5 or 6 runs in ST before we traded for him.

Hopefully, Saarloos is simply working out the kinks or trying something new.

TOBTTReds
03-15-2007, 02:22 PM
Why is Chad Moeller on the team? Honestly couldnt the bullpen catcher throw some guys out at second and bat a buck fifty?

Stefanski is a very good defensive catcher. But I doubt the batting .150 thing.

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 02:22 PM
Top 5TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Chris Denorfia grounds out, shortstop Jack Wilson to first baseman Adam LaRoche.

Top 5TH B:0 S:0 O:2
Jerry Gil grounds out, shortstop Jack Wilson to first baseman Adam LaRoche.

Top 5TH B:0 S:0 O:2
Pitcher Change: Dan Kolb replaces Paul Maholm, batting 9th.

Top 5TH B:0 S:0 O:3
Dewayne Wise grounds out to first baseman Adam LaRoche.

blumj
03-15-2007, 02:25 PM
Is Belisle scheduled to start Saturday?

MaineRed
03-15-2007, 02:26 PM
Denorfia continues to tear it up. And Narron still hasn't named him the opening day center fielder.

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 02:28 PM
Denorfia continues to tear it up. And Narron still hasn't named him the opening day center fielder.

I think we already know our opening day CF.

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2007/03/02/EG9TGLBL.jpg :thumbup:

cincy09
03-15-2007, 02:31 PM
I think we already know our opening day CF.

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2007/03/02/EG9TGLBL.jpg :thumbup:

Sure starting to look that way

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 02:34 PM
Is there any real motivation for the NIT though? I mean seriously how as a coach can you get your team to be motivated for that?

Why even accept the invitation to the NIT then? Historically, some teams that felt they were snubbed by the NCAAs have turned down an invitation to the NIT.

If the NIT was beneath them, why even go? Why not let a school that cares go?

Their motivation should've been to win the NIT to show everyone they deserved an NCAA bid.

Not picking on Drexel specifically, but I never feel sorry for bubble teams that don't make the NCAAs. They either had too weak of a schedule or lost some games they shouldn't have. Not to mention that they had a chance to get in by winning their conference tourney (in most conferences at least). Again, no offense to Drexel fans, but it's not like they had a chance to make the sweet 16. I'm an NC State alum and I will admit they didn't deserve to go to NCAAs.. their fate was in their own hands.

BRM
03-15-2007, 02:35 PM
Denorfia continues to tear it up. And Narron still hasn't named him the opening day center fielder.

Spring training at-bats are far more important than September at-bats during a pennant race.

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 02:35 PM
Sure starting to look that way

It seems like all the right guys are getting hurt or stinking it up.

I hope Griff and Deno recover (each in their own respective ways) but JH has more than earned himself the chance. Especially with the underlying potential.

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 02:37 PM
The 1st one is good but I think they knew they were stiffed due to the fact they were not a "Stanford" type school


Well, a strong showing in the NIT would help build their "rep" up. Getting beat by NC State in the first round isn't going to help change the perception of their program.

Stanford wasn't a highly thought of program about 15-20 years ago.

Puig Your Red
03-15-2007, 02:39 PM
Oh boy. Saarloos had a bad day. It looks like the 5th spot is Belisle's to lose.

Gil is hitting .200. I still don't get the love for him.

MaineRed
03-15-2007, 02:40 PM
Again, no offense to Drexel fans, but it's not like they had a chance to make the sweet 16.

This is as untrue as it gets. There are always teams like Drexel in the Sweet 16. GMason went to the Final 4 last year and a lot of folks thought they shouldn't be in.

The uncertainty of who is going to do what is why everyone wants in. Sure Drexel didn't win their conference but neither did Wisconsin. Check their non conference schedule and tell me what they deserve?

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 02:41 PM
Oh boy. Saarloos had a bad day. It looks like the 5th spot is Belisle's to lose.

Gil is hitting .200. I still don't get the love for him.


I think Sarloos is a lock for the 5th slot (at least initially). He's one of WayneK's boys. Also I don't think the Reds even consider Belisle a viable option in the rotation (other than a swingman/spot starter).

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 02:41 PM
Bottom 5TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Pitcher Change: Mike Stanton replaces Kirk Saarloos, batting 9th.

Bottom 5TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Nate McLouth singles on a ground ball to right fielder Dewayne Wise.

Bottom 5TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Adam LaRoche singles on a fly ball to center fielder Norris Hopper. Nate McLouth to 2nd.

Bottom 5TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Offensive Substitution: Pinch runner Yurendell DeCaster replaces Adam LaRoche.

Bottom 5TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Jose Bautista singles on a ground ball to center fielder Norris Hopper. Nate McLouth scores. Yurendell DeCaster to 3rd.

Bottom 5TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Michael Ryan singles on a line drive to right fielder Dewayne Wise. Yurendell DeCaster scores. Jose Bautista to 2nd.

Bottom 5TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Don Kelly doubles (1) on a line drive to center fielder Norris Hopper. Jose Bautista scores. Michael Ryan scores.

Bottom 5TH B:0 S:3 O:1
Humberto Cota called out on strikes.

Bottom 5TH B:0 S:0 O:2
Dan Kolb grounds out, first baseman Jeff Conine to pitcher Mike Stanton. Don Kelly to 3rd.

Bottom 5TH B:0 S:0 O:3
Chris Duffy grounds out, second baseman Brandon Phillips to first baseman Jeff Conine.



...just... wow...

Puig Your Red
03-15-2007, 02:41 PM
Yikes. Stanton comes in and gives up 4 runs.

MaineRed
03-15-2007, 02:42 PM
Stanford wasn't a highly thought of program about 15-20 years ago.

They were held in the same regard that they are now. They are a marginal team in a big league. They aren't a power now and they weren't back then.

Name someone on Standford's team. One guy. Name their coach.

Exactly.

redsmetz
03-15-2007, 02:42 PM
Oh boy. Saarloos had a bad day. It looks like the 5th spot is Belisle's to lose.

Gil is hitting .200. I still don't get the love for him.

I've been reading through the thread, but haven't seen a score in a while. What's the score and what has Saarloos done?

BRM
03-15-2007, 02:42 PM
Stanton comes in and allows five straight hits. Not good.

Puig Your Red
03-15-2007, 02:42 PM
I think Sarloos is a lock for the 5th slot (at least initially). He's one of WayneK's boys. Also I don't think the Reds even consider Belisle a viable option in the rotation (other than a swingman/spot starter).
I'd love to have a rotation of

Harang
Arroyo
Loshe
Belisle
Saarloos

But I know Milton's contract won't let that happen.

Chip R
03-15-2007, 02:42 PM
Oh boy. Saarloos had a bad day. It looks like the 5th spot is Belisle's to lose.


Belisle has options.

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 02:43 PM
I've been reading through the thread, but haven't seen a score in a while. What's the score and what has Saarloos done?

Sorry bout that.

It's currently the top of the 6th.

0-9 Pirates...

just... wow...

Saarloos: 4ip 7h 5er 0bb 4k 1hr 6.35era
Stanton: 1ip 5h 4er 0bb 1k 0hr 7.20era

Puig Your Red
03-15-2007, 02:43 PM
I've been reading through the thread, but haven't seen a score in a while. What's the score and what has Saarloos done?
It's now 9-0 Pirates

Saarloos:
4 IP, 7 H, 5 R, 5 ER,

Stanton:
1 IP, 5 H, 4 R, 4 ER

Throw Stanford in there and you don't want to start with a S today.

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 02:44 PM
This is as untrue as it gets. There are always teams like Drexel in the Sweet 16. GMason went to the Final 4 last year and a lot of folks thought they shouldn't be in.

The uncertainty of who is going to do what is why everyone wants in. Sure Drexel didn't win their conference but neither did Wisconsin. Check their non conference schedule and tell me what they deserve?


Sure, anyone can beat anyone in theory. But if Drexel can't beat NC State in the NIT, they probably aren't going to win their first round NCAA game either.

Again, I have no sympathy for bubble teams that don't make it.

George Mason is a once in a 20 year thing. Kind of like when NC State won the national champoinship.

At some point you just got to cut someone out of the field. Even if you expanded the field to 128 teams, then teams 129-133 would be crying and claiming that in theory they could pull a George Mason.

Puig Your Red
03-15-2007, 02:46 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55496&page=3
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55268

Plenty of threads for NCAA tourney talk. Meanwhile, gameday has died on me.

texasdave
03-15-2007, 02:49 PM
Well, a strong showing in the NIT would help build their "rep" up.

And if they build their "rep" high enough they can start posting in the Old Red Guard.:beerme:

mbgrayson
03-15-2007, 02:49 PM
If spring training means much, I think Saarloos is dropping down on the depth chart.

Matt Belisle has not only pitched better this spring, but pitched better in his limited 2006 MLB work. I also think he has more upside, in that he is 26, and Saarloos is a year older.

In their 2007 estimates, Baseball Prospectus rates Belisle above Saarloos, with projected ERA of 4.64 for Belisle vs. 5.07 for Saarloos(when they calculated this, it was with the assumption Saarloos was playing in Oakland, a much more pitcher -friendly park)

If Belisle's back is truly better, I would pick him as our #5.

BRM
03-15-2007, 02:52 PM
If spring training means much, I think Saarloos is dropping down on the depth chart.

Matt Belisle has not only pitched better this spring, but pitched better in his limited 2006 MLB work. I also think he has more upside, in that he is 26, and Saarloos is a year older.

In their 2007 estimates, Baseball Prospectus rates Belisle above Saarloos, with projected ERA of 4.64 for Belisle vs. 5.07 for Saarloos(when they calculated this, it was with the assumption Saarloos was playing in Oakland, a much more pitcher -friendly park)

If Belisle's back is truly better, I would pick him as our #5.

I'd take both over Eric Milton. Is that a choice? Probably not.

Puig Your Red
03-15-2007, 02:53 PM
I think Sarloos is a lock for the 5th slot (at least initially). He's one of WayneK's boys. Also I don't think the Reds even consider Belisle a viable option in the rotation (other than a swingman/spot starter).
While Saarloos is a WK boy, WK said one of the reason he acquire him was because of his ability to start or come out of the pen.

MaineRed
03-15-2007, 02:54 PM
Sure, anyone can beat anyone in theory. But if Drexel can't beat NC State in the NIT, they probably aren't going to win their first round game

Well Duke a six seed lost their last game to NC State. So by your estimation they have no shot to win their first round game since anyone who loses to NC State can't win?

Sea Ray
03-15-2007, 02:54 PM
Might the Reds staff be entering the "dead arm" period of Spring Training?

Puig Your Red
03-15-2007, 02:54 PM
I'd take both over Eric Milton. Is that a choice? Probably not.
Agreed.

hippie07
03-15-2007, 02:54 PM
what about livingston...i've been impressed

Ahhhorsepoo
03-15-2007, 02:54 PM
They were held in the same regard that they are now. They are a marginal team in a big league. They aren't a power now and they weren't back then.

Name someone on Standford's team. One guy. Name their coach.

Exactly.

The Lopez brothers.. and that Finger kid..

BRM
03-15-2007, 02:55 PM
Might the Reds staff be entering the "dead arm" period of Spring Training?

Or could they be entering the "true colors" period of spring training?

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
03-15-2007, 03:03 PM
I'd love to have a rotation of

Harang
Arroyo
Loshe
Belisle
Saarloos

But I know Milton's contract won't let that happen.
This is one thing that I have never been able to understand. Why would the amount of money you are paying someone dictate whether he is in the rotation or not. You don't get penalty points for not starting guys with high salaries so toss him in the bullpen. Wayne didn't make the deal for him so why not come out and say it was a mistake and it would be better for the team if he were in the bullpen.

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 03:04 PM
Well Duke a six seed lost their last game to NC State. So by your estimation they have no shot to win their first round game since anyone who loses to NC State can't win?

Nope, that's not my argument at all.

I don't think there's any undefeated teams in college basketball this year, so naturally every team in the NCAAs is going to have a few losses that one can play logic games with.

Does Drexel have a conference tourney? (I don't know).. If so, that was their second chance to get in. They blew their first chance to get in (regular season).

Losing to NC State in the first round of the NIT proves to me that they wouldn't be a factor in the NCAAs. BTW, I doubt Duke is going to be a factor in the NCAAs this year either. They are just another filler team in the field.
Although I haven't watched Pitt this year, so if Duke wins their first round game, I'm not sure how they match up. But as a wild guess, I say Duke only has at best a 30% chance of making the sweet 16. They just don't have the talent this year.

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 03:06 PM
They were held in the same regard that they are now. They are a marginal team in a big league. They aren't a power now and they weren't back then.

Name someone on Standford's team. One guy. Name their coach.

Exactly.


I guess that's my point. You say Stanford got in on their rep.. I don't see Stanford exactly having a rep. So why are you saying Stanford got in over a more deserving Drexel due to their rep? Or am I missing something?

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 03:08 PM
Stanton comes in and allows five straight hits. Not good.


Another waste of money by WayneK.

Ironically, someone suggested that Wayne could've picked up Stanton cheap instead of trading for Maj, and the idea was generally frowned upon. Then Wayne opens up the bank for Stanton in the offseason. :bang:

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 03:10 PM
But I know Milton's contract won't let that happen.

A good GM could've unloaded Milton's contract this past offseason without subsidizing. The market was that insane, and Milton only had one year left.

I think the Reds want Milton on their team this year, partially because their pitching depth is so thin.

M2
03-15-2007, 03:10 PM
Drexel should be in the NCAA for mascot name alone. In fact, I sincerely doubt there was a better matchup today than the Dragons vs. the Wolfpack.

On the baseball end of things. When you consider the Reds starting rotation, ask yourself what would Gene Mauch do?

He'd probably just alternate Harang and Arroyo and forget about 3-4-5 starters.

Team Clark
03-15-2007, 03:12 PM
Another waste of money by WayneK.

Guy has a bad outing and he's a waste of $$$?? :rolleyes: So if Harang only wins 11 games this year is he a bust?

flyer85
03-15-2007, 03:12 PM
Might the Reds staff be entering the "dead arm" period of Spring Training?There are a number that never leave the "dead arm" period.

Team Clark
03-15-2007, 03:13 PM
There are a number that never leave the "dead arm" period.

:laugh: :beerme:

tripleaaaron
03-15-2007, 03:13 PM
I still don't get the love for him.
Jerry Gil
He has a rocket arm, great athleticism and good power ability, the only knock is that he is much more comfortable (in his hitting game) when playing the OF, but his bat has minimal value as a starting OF, but if he could put it together and hit "comfortably" as a SS, he could be an above average shortstop, but if not he could be a good super-utility player. My "love" for him, is he is 24, hit 26 HR ar AA, hit 96 mph on a radar gun messing around in BP, and is a very athletic player. The main draw here is that he is part of a young wave of players, our already young IF, just got deaper and stronger for the future ecen if it is only as a super sub. I personally feel he needs more seasoning at AAA as he lost some time to an injury, and his overall hitting could use some more seasoning. Even with this in mind it is just nice to see young talented players in camp.

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 03:16 PM
Guy has a bad outing and he's a waste of $$$?? :rolleyes: So if Harang only wins 11 games this year is he a bust?

No.. but I predict Stanton will be a waste of money this year. This spring training outing doesn't prove it, but it doesn't make me change my mind.

flyer85
03-15-2007, 03:20 PM
No.. but I predict Stanton will be a waste of money this year. This spring training outing doesn't prove it, but it doesn't make me change my mind.PECOTA certainly agrees with you and at age 40 it certainly isn't a stretch. The only reason he had a somewhat low ERA last year was a low HR rate. Much like Rick White in 2006 when the HR rate comes back to historical norms his ERA will balloon as well.

BRM
03-15-2007, 03:22 PM
PECOTA certainly agrees with you and at age 40 it certainly isn't a stretch. The only reason he had a somewhat low ERA last year was a low HR rate. Much like Rick White in 2006 when the HR rate comes back to historical norms his ERA will balloon as well.

PECOTA projects 1/2 of the Reds closer duo to be terrible. Sounds awesome. I hope Weathers is expected to be servicable.

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 03:23 PM
PECOTA certainly agrees with you and at age 40 it certainly isn't a stretch. The only reason he had a somewhat low ERA last year was a low HR rate. Much like Rick White in 2006 when the HR rate comes back to historical norms his ERA will balloon as well.


Wow, I didn't realize he was 40.. I was guessing 37-38.. It's pretty obvious that he's been in decline the last few years.

Why give an obviously declining 40 year old pitcher a 2 year deal? That's what kills me. Once again, WayneK is like a teenager at the mall with a brand new credit card.. Impulse buyer.

CTA513
03-15-2007, 03:25 PM
According to gameday Jay Bruce is playing right field now.

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 03:25 PM
Top 6TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Yurendell DeCaster remains in the game as the first baseman.

Top 6TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Defensive Substitution: Alex Fernandez replaces center fielder Chris Duffy, batting 1st, playing center field.

Top 6TH B:4 S:0 O:0
Chad Moeller walks.

Top 6TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Offensive Substitution: Pinch hitter Jay Bruce replaces Mike Stanton.

Top 6TH B:0 S:0 O:2
Jay Bruce grounds into double play, shortstop Jack Wilson to second baseman Don Kelly to first baseman Yurendell DeCaster. Chad Moeller out at 2nd.

Top 6TH B:0 S:0 O:3
Norris Hopper grounds out, second baseman Don Kelly to first baseman Yurendell DeCaster.


Bruce? That's interesting! :)

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 03:26 PM
Bottom 6TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Pitcher Change: Paul Wilson replaces Mike Stanton, batting 1st.

Bottom 6TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Defensive switch from right field to center field for Dewayne Wise.

Bottom 6TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Jay Bruce remains in the game as the right fielder.

Bottom 6TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Jack Wilson singles on a line drive to left fielder Chris Denorfia.

Bottom 6TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Offensive Substitution: Pinch runner Dan Schwartzbauer replaces Jack Wilson.

Bottom 6TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Nate McLouth flies out to center fielder Dewayne Wise.

Bottom 6TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Yurendell DeCaster doubles (1) on a line drive to left fielder Chris Denorfia. Dan Schwartzbauer to 3rd.

Bottom 6TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Jose Bautista singles on a line drive to left fielder Chris Denorfia. Dan Schwartzbauer scores. Yurendell DeCaster scores.

Bottom 6TH B:0 S:3 O:2
Michael Ryan called out on strikes.

Bottom 6TH B:4 S:0 O:2
Don Kelly walks. Jose Bautista to 2nd.

Bottom 6TH B:0 S:0 O:3
Humberto Cota flies out to center fielder Dewayne Wise.




We are getting smoked...

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 03:33 PM
Oh man, Paul Wilson.. I feel sorry for Reds fans that went to see this game live. :lol:

I didn't realize Paul Wilson was even at the Reds' camp. :lol: I hope he's just a non roster invitee.

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 03:35 PM
Funny how one bad outing has quickly translated into the long forecast demise of the pitching staff...

flyer85
03-15-2007, 03:37 PM
PECOTA projects 1/2 of the Reds closer duo to be terrible. Sounds awesome. I hope Weathers is expected to be servicable.much better than Stanton and Cormier. I would say there is a high likelihood that by the end of the season the back end of the pen is young guys(Coffey, Bray, etc) and the fossils(Cormier, Stanton) are relegated to mopup roles or have been released

redsmetz
03-15-2007, 03:39 PM
A good GM could've unloaded Milton's contract this past offseason without subsidizing. The market was that insane, and Milton only had one year left.

I think the Reds want Milton on their team this year, partially because their pitching depth is so thin.

Milton's coming back from an injury and surgery. I don't think anyone would take him on without seeing how he's going to perform early on.

flyer85
03-15-2007, 03:39 PM
Why give an obviously declining 40 year old pitcher a 2 year deal? That's what kills me. Once again, WayneK is like a teenager at the mall with a brand new credit card.. Impulse buyer.like giving Cormier and extension to agree to the trade ... bad idea. :help:

redsmetz
03-15-2007, 03:42 PM
So what's the score now folks?

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 03:43 PM
Top 7TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Dan Schwartzbauer remains in the game as the second baseman.

Top 7TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Defensive Substitution: Chris Truby replaces third baseman Jose Bautista, batting 5th, playing third base.

Top 7TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Defensive switch from second base to shortstop for Don Kelly.

Top 7TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Pitcher Change: John Wasdin replaces Dan Kolb, batting 8th.

Top 7TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Defensive Substitution: Einar Diaz replaces pitcher Dan Kolb, batting 9th, playing catcher.

Top 7TH B:0 S:3 O:1
Alex Gonzalez strikes out swinging.

Top 7TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Brandon Phillips doubles (1) on a line drive to left fielder Michael Ryan.

Top 7TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Offensive Substitution: Pinch runner Anderson Machado replaces Brandon Phillips.

Top 7TH B:0 S:0 O:2
Jeff Conine grounds out, third baseman Chris Truby to first baseman Yurendell DeCaster.

Top 7TH B:4 S:0 O:2
Chris Denorfia walks.

Top 7TH B:0 S:3 O:3
Jerry Gil called out on strikes.

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 03:43 PM
Milton's coming back from an injury and surgery. I don't think anyone would take him on without seeing how he's going to perform early on.

Plenty of below average pitchers got giant multiyear contracts, even some with health problems. Milton at one year for a rich team that needs a 5th starter isn't that bad.

Now if the Reds were willing to spend as much as they were to get rid of LaRue, they'd definitely be able to move him.

As crazy as it sounds, I think the Reds want Milton on the team. They're going to cross their fingers again and hope he has a good year.

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 03:44 PM
So what's the score now folks?

Does it matter anymore? :(

11-0 Pirates...

BRM
03-15-2007, 03:44 PM
Funny how one bad outing has quickly translated into the long forecast demise of the pitching staff...

I don't see it that way at all. Folks have forecasted the demise of guys like Wilson and Stanton for quite some time.

KronoRed
03-15-2007, 03:45 PM
We have them right where we want em

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 03:46 PM
like giving Cormier and extension to agree to the trade ... bad idea. :help:


Yep, another WayneK panic move.

What's really annoying about Cormier is that he only pitched 48 innings last year and 47 in 2005.. and they weren't exactly quality innings either. I'd much rather give those 48 innings to Burton.

What exactly is Cormier good for? Absolutely nuthin. :laugh:

BRM
03-15-2007, 03:46 PM
As crazy as it sounds, I think the Reds want Milton on the team. They're going to cross their fingers again and hope he has a good year.

Interesting. Expecting him to be something other than Eric Milton. Not sure that's a good plan.

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 03:48 PM
I don't see it that way at all. Folks have forecasted the demise of guys like Wilson and Stanton for quite some time.

Just pointing out how many guys jumped at the chance to say "I told you so!"

I'm not entirely convinced that they won't be servicable this year. Good? No way. Average? Hopefully. One outing can't dictate it. (BTW, Wilson shouldn't be on the team anyways)

Ideally, we'll have some young guys step up and take their spots.

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 03:50 PM
Bottom 7TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Defensive Substitution: Tyrell Godwin replaces shortstop Alex Gonzalez, batting 2nd, playing left field.

Bottom 7TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Anderson Machado remains in the game as the second baseman.

Bottom 7TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Defensive Substitution: Joey Votto replaces first baseman Jeff Conine, batting 4th, playing first base.

Bottom 7TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Defensive Substitution: Paul Janish replaces left fielder Chris Denorfia, batting 5th, playing shortstop.

Bottom 7TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Einar Diaz singles on a ground ball to left fielder Tyrell Godwin.

Bottom 7TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Alex Fernandez flies out to left fielder Tyrell Godwin.

Bottom 7TH B:0 S:3 O:2
Dan Schwartzbauer called out on strikes.

Bottom 7TH B:0 S:0 O:2
Offensive Substitution: Pinch hitter Brad Corley replaces Nate McLouth.

Bottom 7TH B:0 S:3 O:3
Brad Corley strikes out swinging.


wow... no runs that inning! :p:

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 03:51 PM
Interesting. Expecting him to be something other than Eric Milton. Not sure that's a good plan.

I agree, it's an ill fated plan, but that's my guess of what the Reds were thinking.

The new regime decided pretty quickly that some of the holdover players were of no value and discarded of them quite quickly. Whether one agrees with the decision or not, Casey, Larue, Kearns, and Lopez disappeared pretty quickly once Wayne decided to get rid of them. (Although Casey was before Wayne arrived, it was part of the "new regime's" thinking).

If Wayne really wanted Milton gone, he'd be gone.

tripleaaaron
03-15-2007, 03:51 PM
I don't see it that way at all. Folks have forecasted the demise of guys like Wilson and Stanton for quite some time.

absolutely, how wilson pitched 3 innings of no hit ball topping out at 84 mph is beyond me, I dont feel that he can be a productive major leaguer unless he can regain some arm strength. And other that that outing Wilson has been aweful, and as for Stanton I think most everyone covered exactly my sentiments.

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 03:51 PM
Top 8TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Brad Corley remains in the game as the right fielder.

Top 8TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Pitcher Change: Jesse Chavez replaces John Wasdin, batting 8th.

Top 8TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Dewayne Wise grounds out, second baseman Dan Schwartzbauer to first baseman Yurendell DeCaster.

Top 8TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Chad Moeller singles on a ground ball to left fielder Michael Ryan.

Top 8TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Jay Bruce singles on a fly ball to right fielder Brad Corley. Chad Moeller to 2nd.

Top 8TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Paul Wilson singles on a ground ball to shortstop Don Kelly. Chad Moeller to 3rd. Jay Bruce to 2nd.

Top 8TH B:0 S:0 O:2
Tyrell Godwin out on a sacrifice fly to left fielder Michael Ryan. Chad Moeller scores. Jay Bruce to 3rd.

Top 8TH B:0 S:3 O:3
Anderson Machado strikes out swinging.

We're on the board! (11-1 Pirates)

and even better!.. Bruce gets a hit! :D

Chip R
03-15-2007, 03:52 PM
I didn't realize Paul Wilson was even at the Reds' camp. :lol: I hope he's just a non roster invitee.


He is but he's in the mix for that 5th spot in the rotation. :bang: :bang: :bang:

BRM
03-15-2007, 03:52 PM
wow... no runs that inning! :p:

Who pitched the 7th?

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 03:53 PM
Good? No way. Average? Hopefully.

This is my whole problem though.. We spent a lot of cash on Stanton, Weathers, Cormier, and even Lohse with the hope that "hopefully" they will be average.

Why not take that money and get someone who will actually be good? Why did Wayne chose quanity over quality?

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 03:54 PM
He is but he's in the mix for that 5th spot in the rotation. :bang: :bang: :bang:


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I missed that this past winter. Sorry, but I can only laugh at that.

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 03:55 PM
Bottom 8TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Yurendell DeCaster singles on a line drive to pitcher Paul Wilson.

Bottom 8TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Chris Truby singles on a ground ball to left fielder Tyrell Godwin. Yurendell DeCaster to 2nd.

Bottom 8TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Michael Ryan singles on a line drive to right fielder Jay Bruce. Yurendell DeCaster to 3rd. Chris Truby to 2nd.

Bottom 8TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Offensive Substitution: Pinch hitter Taber Lee replaces Don Kelly.

Bottom 8TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Taber Lee grounds into a force out, pitcher Paul Wilson to catcher Chad Moeller. Yurendell DeCaster out at home. Chris Truby to 3rd. Michael Ryan to 2nd. Taber Lee to 1st.

Bottom 8TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Offensive Substitution: Pinch hitter Angel R. Gonzalez replaces Jesse Chavez.

Bottom 8TH B:0 S:3 O:2
Angel R. Gonzalez strikes out swinging.

Bottom 8TH B:0 S:0 O:2
Einar Diaz singles on a ground ball to center fielder Dewayne Wise. Chris Truby scores. Michael Ryan scores. Taber Lee to 2nd.

Bottom 8TH B:0 S:0 O:2
Pitcher Change: Michael Gosling replaces Paul Wilson, batting 1st.

Bottom 8TH B:0 S:0 O:3
Alex Fernandez grounds out, second baseman Anderson Machado to first baseman Joey Votto.


More damage... (13-1 Bucs)

...and I think we've all seen enough Paul Wilson...

Time for the 13 run rally!!! :jump:

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 03:56 PM
Top 9TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Pitcher Change: Matt Capps replaces Jesse Chavez, batting 2nd.

Top 9TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Taber Lee remains in the game as the second baseman.

Top 9TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Angel R. Gonzalez remains in the game as the shortstop.

Top 9TH B:0 S:3 O:1
Joey Votto strikes out swinging.

Top 9TH B:0 S:0 O:2
Paul Janish lines out to second baseman Taber Lee.

Top 9TH B:0 S:3 O:3
Jerry Gil strikes out swinging.


Nevermind that rally thing...

A 13-1 whoopin'...

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 03:56 PM
Who pitched the 7th?

Wilson was still in.

Hopefully never again... :bang:

CTA513
03-15-2007, 03:58 PM
Gosling pitched 1/3 of an inning and was the only Reds pitcher to not give up a run today.

membengal
03-15-2007, 04:00 PM
So the good news in this one is that Wilson was among those getting lit up? Perhaps that will stop the weird drumbeat from some quarters (including, sadly, those with the organization) to make him the 5th starter...

Team Clark
03-15-2007, 04:01 PM
No.. but I predict Stanton will be a waste of money this year. This spring training outing doesn't prove it, but it doesn't make me change my mind.

Right or wrong I respect people who stand their ground. :thumbup:

At least the Reds have a few viable options in case Stanton or Cormier tank.

IamWallaman
03-15-2007, 04:01 PM
This is my whole problem though.. We spent a lot of cash on Stanton, Weathers, Cormier, and even Lohse with the hope that "hopefully" they will be average.

Why not take that money and get someone who will actually be good? Why did Wayne chose quanity over quality?

Flexibility. You keep the guys that produce. You affordably dump the guys that can't.

We can hopefully get a good return on some vets mid season as well to let some younger guys break out.

Rotater Cuff
03-15-2007, 04:02 PM
Saarloos is making Belisle look pretty strong today

Several things may have been decided today between Stanton, Wilson and Saarlos. Paul is the saddest case. He was such a great story. I'll be sorry to see him go if he doesn't make it this yearhttp://www.redszone.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

tripleaaaron
03-15-2007, 04:04 PM
This is my whole problem though.. We spent a lot of cash on Stanton, Weathers, Cormier, and even Lohse with the hope that "hopefully" they will be average.

Why not take that money and get someone who will actually be good? Why did Wayne chose quanity over quality?

Because we have two 1-2 types (I feel borderline Aces, with Harang very close) and another 1 type a year away, or a half a season. With the terribly high market this season, we had to keep our future in mind. We got Sarloos at a great value, and we got potential 3 stuff in Lohse, but if not solid back-end production as a stop-gap until 2008-09. Face it the market was too high compared to our needs for now and the future. We will be competitive and I feel our pitching staff overall is amongst the better half of baseball, if not better and thats more than we can say for a long-time. We also must acknowledge that we are still a season or two away from clearing house of the old regime, and the same for our young wave to really take effect. Our plan right now is to continue to be competitive, until the young guys come in, and the big contracts of the past depart (Milton, griffey, etc) This will be the strategy for years to come, but hopefully we wont even notice due to the quality of prospects coming up.

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 04:04 PM
Right or wrong I respect people who stand their ground. :thumbup:

At least the Reds have a few viable options in case Stanton or Cormier tank.


I really hope they find a way to keep Burton on the squad. IMO, he's more promising than anything they have in AAA.

Team Clark
03-15-2007, 04:06 PM
I really hope they find a way to keep Burton on the squad. IMO, he's more promising than anything they have in AAA.

I also like Burton. I think once Shack gets to where Coffey is with his confidence he'll be very serviceable. The good thing is the Reds have a core of young arms with above avg potential. One more plus is that they can control them for a few years w/o having to lose them to FA.

BRM
03-15-2007, 04:08 PM
Gosling pitched 1/3 of an inning and was the only Reds pitcher to not give up a run today.

Who else pitched? I know Saarloos, Stanton, Wilson, and Gosling.

Chip R
03-15-2007, 04:08 PM
I really hope they find a way to keep Burton on the squad. IMO, he's more promising than anything they have in AAA.


Skinner and Welch were talking about him this morning in glowing terms. They just don't figure the Reds can keep 2 Rule 5 guys on the team.

BRM
03-15-2007, 04:09 PM
Skinner and Welch were talking about him this morning in glowing terms. They just don't figure the Reds can keep 2 Rule 5 guys on the team.

If they are among the best 25 in camp, they should be on the roster.

Team Clark
03-15-2007, 04:10 PM
Skinner and Welch were talking about him this morning in glowing terms. They just don't figure the Reds can keep 2 Rule 5 guys on the team.

Chip, do you recall the last time any team kept two rule 5 guys? I'm trying to think if or when that has happened?

If the Reds were to keep 12 Burton or Salmon would be better options than some of the "old goats". :laugh:

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 04:10 PM
Flexibility. You keep the guys that produce. You affordably dump the guys that can't.

We can hopefully get a good return on some vets mid season as well to let some younger guys break out.

I can't remember what Stanton fetched in a trade when he was dealt to the Giants last year. It wasn't anything of note, IIRC.

Now he's a year older and has a 5.5 million dollar contract. If he pitches well, we're going to want to keep him. If he doesn't produce, he's untradable because of his contract.

I disagree with the strategy of "Oh well, we can always dump him". As I said, no other team will want him if he doesn't produce, and the Reds can't afford to flush 5.5 million down the toilet. That's a lot different than eating Womack's modest contract last year.

The Reds are still have limited resources. I find it ironic that one of the justifications for trading Kearns and Lopez was financial flexibility, and then Wayne went out and wasted over 30 million this offseason with questionable moves. I liked the Sarloos pickup.. but other than that, the others are all questionable. That is, the other moves which cost money, I'm not counting Rule V and non roster invitees which cost a team nothing.

Chip R
03-15-2007, 04:11 PM
Chip, do you recall the last time any team kept two rule 5 guys? I'm trying to think if or when that has happened?



You got me. WOY would probably know.

texasdave
03-15-2007, 04:12 PM
It seems to me that a reliever would be the easiest person to keep on a team as a Rule V draftee. Use him in long relief or an inning or two here and there in games that are out of reach either way.

BRM
03-15-2007, 04:13 PM
I can't remember what Stanton fetched in a trade when he was dealt to the Giants last year. It wasn't anything of note, IIRC.


Shairon Martis.

Team Clark
03-15-2007, 04:13 PM
I can't remember what Stanton fetched in a trade when he was dealt to the Giants last year. It wasn't anything of note, IIRC.

Now he's a year older and has a 5.5 million dollar contract. If he pitches well, we're going to want to keep him. If he doesn't produce, he's untradable because of his contract.

I disagree with the strategy of "Oh well, we can always dump him". As I said, no other team will want him if he doesn't produce, and the Reds can't afford to flush 5.5 million down the toilet. That's a lot different than eating Womack's modest contract last year.

The Reds are still have limited resources. I find it ironic that one of the justifications for trading Kearns and Lopez was financial flexibility, and then Wayne went out and wasted over 30 million this offseason with questionable moves. I liked the Sarloos pickup.. but other than that, the others are all questionable. That is, the other moves which cost money, I'm not counting Rule V and non roster invitees which cost a team nothing.


Best scenario is for Milton to need go to the DL for his knee. (Not that I am wishing anyone to get hurt) 60 Day DL or longer so Insurance can kick in. Saarloos and Belisle perform well in the rotation and all is well.

Team Clark
03-15-2007, 04:14 PM
You got me. WOY would probably know.

True... Paging Jedi Master WOY....

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 04:15 PM
Our plan right now is to continue to be competitive, until the young guys come in, and the big contracts of the past depart.

But outside of Homer, Bruce, and maybe 2-3 others, there's no young guys ready to reinforce this team.

It would be much more prudent for Wayne to focus on collecting young guys that could potentially help us now and in the future. Sarloos is one of those. Phillips was one of those. Conine/Stanton/Weathers/Cormier are not.

I'm ok with keeping Lohse only because we are so thin, and he's only a one year commitment.

Milton should've been moved out.

In summary, I look at all the moves Wayne made this winter. Which moves are really going to help us beyond this year. Maybe Sarloos and the Rule V picks. That's it. Not exactly adding talent for the future (or the present either).

tripleaaaron
03-15-2007, 04:17 PM
I agree with you on the Stanton signing, his signing is the only offseason move that I am in complete disagreement with as he has no flexibility unless he pitches well, sounds like A High Risk, low reward move. If it was for One year I would feel completely different. The other moves offer the reds more flexibility as the players have more flexibility/ less money contracts that offer much less risk for the club.

Team Clark
03-15-2007, 04:18 PM
But outside of Homer, Bruce, and maybe 2-3 others, there's no young guys ready to reinforce this team.

I see what you are saying but what teams besides the Astros, Braves and maybe the Marlins are that deep in their Minor League system? (Tigers maybe) Occasionally the Yankees before they trade them all away. The D-Rays are stacked in positions they don't need. The systems get thinner and thinner IMO. You have a GREAT Minor League system if you have 2 yes 2 prospects at each level.

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 04:19 PM
I also like Burton. I think once Shack gets to where Coffey is with his confidence he'll be very serviceable. The good thing is the Reds have a core of young arms with above avg potential. One more plus is that they can control them for a few years w/o having to lose them to FA.

I agree. Shack is servicable. That's another reason I dislike having Cormier and Stanton, who are more expensive and definitely not any better.

WayneK basically has one open slot on his 12 man pitching staff, up for grabs between Belisle, Burton, and all the AAA guys. Yeah, he could option Bray down, but I'd rather the Reds not play stupid roster games like that. IMO, it was not good planning to stuff the pen with veterans. Since we were already stuck with Cormier, why in the world did we sign Stanton?

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 04:20 PM
Skinner and Welch were talking about him this morning in glowing terms. They just don't figure the Reds can keep 2 Rule 5 guys on the team.

I don't see why not though. It's not like the Reds are brimming with talent.

Yeah, I know most of the roster spots are already locked up to veterans, but that's not right.

Team Clark
03-15-2007, 04:22 PM
With Wayne's propensity to move players it's not out of the realm of possibility to see a deal get done before Opening Day.

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 04:24 PM
I see what you are saying but what teams besides the Astros, Braves and maybe the Marlins are that deep in their Minor League system? (Tigers maybe) Occasionally the Yankees before they trade them all away. The D-Rays are stacked in positions they don't need. The systems get thinner and thinner IMO. You have a GREAT Minor League system if you have 2 yes 2 prospects at each level.

Yes, that is a fair statement. I guess my point is that we shouldn't be waiting for the calvary to come from the minors in 2009 or whatever. Historically a big part of rebuilidng is grabbing young pieces through trades to compliment the farm system. That's how the Marlins did it. That's how the 1999 Reds did it.

That's why I'm disappointed that outside of Sarloos and the Rule V guys, Wayne didn't really get any potential "for the future" players. He seemed more focused on guys like Stanton that would help us be respectable this year. With 30 million to play with, I wish he could've been more creative.

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 04:25 PM
With Wayne's propensity to move players it's not out of the realm of possibility to see a deal get done before Opening Day.


Let's hope Cormier gets sent packing to a new team. :)

paulrichjr
03-15-2007, 04:29 PM
While I agree that signing Stanton for 2 years was insane, I don't believe that one bad outing is the sign that WayneK goofed on this one. This thread just shows how suicidal we as Reds fans are. THEY HAVE THE BEST RECORD IN BASEBALL in spring training. They are going to lose. It's spring training. We could have the Devil Rays record. It doesn't matter if we did because these games don't count.

flyer85
03-15-2007, 04:32 PM
I went on record saying it was a bad signing and Stanton would pitch poorly before spring training began. I lumped Cormier in with him as well. Last year made the same prediction for White and Hammond.

BRM
03-15-2007, 04:32 PM
While I agree that signing Stanton for 2 years was insane, I don't believe that one bad outing is the sign that WayneK goofed on this one. This thread just shows how suicidal we as Reds fans are. THEY HAVE THE BEST RECORD IN BASEBALL in spring training. They are going to lose. It's spring training. We could have the Devil Rays record. It doesn't matter if we did because these games don't count.

I don't think anyone is claiming "this one bad outing is the sign Wayne goofed on this one". Most of us think Wayne "goofed on this one" the day Stanton was signed.

OesterPoster
03-15-2007, 04:34 PM
Last year made the same prediction for White and Hammond.

Really went out on a limb on that prediction, eh? ;)

paulrichjr
03-15-2007, 04:39 PM
I don't think anyone is claiming "this one bad outing is the sign Wayne goofed on this one". Most of us think Wayne "goofed on this one" the day Stanton was signed.

I'm just shocked at how negative a thread can be when we are losing for one of the first times this year. I honestly didn't understand the deal for Stanton, but the guy has pitched well in the past and deserves at least a couple of games during the regular season to see if he can still pitch.

BRM
03-15-2007, 04:51 PM
I'm just shocked at how negative a thread can be when we are losing for one of the first times this year. I honestly didn't understand the deal for Stanton, but the guy has pitched well in the past and deserves at least a couple of games during the regular season to see if he can still pitch.

I guess I don't see a thread getting negative because of the loss. It's negative because pitchers who were predicted to be lousy got hammered today. It sort of "green lights" discussions about why Wayne acquired some of these guys in the first place.

tripleaaaron
03-15-2007, 04:58 PM
You got me. WOY would probably know.

It seems like the last time it happened only considering ML portion, was 2003 when the Tigers picked Shelton Number One, they also chose Mike Bumatay which didnt stick, and Lino Urdaneta which seems to have made their roster on Opening Day, but didn't pitch much, hardly at all. And we all know shelton.

forfreelin04
03-15-2007, 05:06 PM
I'm just shocked at how negative a thread can be when we are losing for one of the first times this year. I honestly didn't understand the deal for Stanton, but the guy has pitched well in the past and deserves at least a couple of games during the regular season to see if he can still pitch.

I agree 100%. Paul Wilson stunk it up BIG SUPRISE? Mike Stanton will be fine. Tune in for another episode of As Redszone Turns on another day :beerme:

tripleaaaron
03-15-2007, 05:07 PM
But outside of Homer, Bruce, and maybe 2-3 others, there's no young guys ready to reinforce this team.

It would be much more prudent for Wayne to focus on collecting young guys that could potentially help us now and in the future. Sarloos is one of those. Phillips was one of those. Conine/Stanton/Weathers/Cormier are not.

I'm ok with keeping Lohse only because we are so thin, and he's only a one year commitment.

Milton should've been moved out.

In summary, I look at all the moves Wayne made this winter. Which moves are really going to help us beyond this year. Maybe Sarloos and the Rule V picks. That's it. Not exactly adding talent for the future (or the present either).
alot of that also has to go into availability, did we have the pieces necessary to get good prospects, or were there any readily available to sign, and at a good price? We were about as productive as one could be in that manner, It sounds great to make a big move, but do we really want what was out there? Zito isn't worth what he is getting and after that what else could we do to solidify both, last time we made that attempt we ended up with milton, which any pitcher signing this season could've been, our 2-3 guys we have coming up are not plentiful, but of the upmost quality. They are 2 or 3 of the best prospects out there, which adding in Harang and Arroyo, and the Low Risk High Reward Hamilton, which could be a stud player, the signing of a quality 5 starter/releiver in Sarloos, the addition of Phillips, a young growing 3B, and a stock of good relievers, I think we have had a successful season/off season for now and the future. The best moves were the ones that we didn't make, inflated contracts for average pitchers? We got average pitchers much cheaper.

paulrichjr
03-15-2007, 05:10 PM
I guess I don't see a thread getting negative because of the loss. It's negative because pitchers who were predicted to be lousy got hammered today. It sort of "green lights" discussions about why Wayne acquired some of these guys in the first place.

True.

OK I have a question jumping off of this...

Are there many GMs who keep themselves flexible and it be the correct move to make. It seems that a lot of GMs do just what WayneK did which was make a bunch of signings but leave 1 maybe 2 spots open instead of having 4 or 5 spots open like we have had in the past. Personally I wish Loshe, Stanton and Cormier's spots were all open for competition (Milton is another story)...It appears to me that Wayne felt that having that many spots open was a mistake. Is it a mistake? Can a possible championship team (the goal) go into spring training with Rule V, minor leaguers, and unsigned free agents fighting for 4 spots? That sounds a lot like a Bowden camp to me but honestly I don't know what would be best.

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 05:12 PM
I'm just shocked at how negative a thread can be when we are losing for one of the first times this year. I honestly didn't understand the deal for Stanton, but the guy has pitched well in the past and deserves at least a couple of games during the regular season to see if he can still pitch.


I didn't mean to ruin the game for you. But this offseason was one of the most frustrating I've ever seen, and it's shaken my confidence in Wayne even more.

Like BRM said.. Seeing Stanton the co-closer getting lit up just kind of puts you in a dread mode for the upcoming season.

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 05:20 PM
The best moves were the ones that we didn't make

Sure, it can always be worse. We could've given Weaver a 200 million dollar contract, but any team could say that.

Wayne gave out 2 year contracts to Weathers, Castro, and Stanton. That is potentially going to damage us next year as well.

Wayne had over 30 million dollars of financial flexiblity. Consider that no Reds' GM has ever had that much money to play with. When you have that much cash, I really wouldn't mind if Wayne overpaid for a good player. He wasn't limited to free agency either. He could've tried to pry an expensive player away from a small market team or done any of the other tricks the big market teams use to get talent. He had over 30 million, but settled on mediocrity.

tripleaaaron
03-15-2007, 05:20 PM
True.

OK I have a question jumping off of this...

Are there many GMs who keep themselves flexible and it be the correct move to make. It seems that a lot of GMs do just what WayneK did which was make a bunch of signings but leave 1 maybe 2 spots open instead of having 4 or 5 spots open like we have had in the past. Personally I wish Loshe, Stanton and Cormier's spots were all open for competition (Milton is another story)...It appears to me that Wayne felt that having that many spots open was a mistake. Is it a mistake? Can a possible championship team (the goal) go into spring training with Rule V, minor leaguers, and unsigned free agents fighting for 4 spots? That sounds a lot like a Bowden camp to me but honestly I don't know what would be best.

I think its more of a matter of who you have and where youd like to be before you can decide that. Right now we are limbo: caught between older guys going out (almost entire bullpen flip) and young ones coming in, I think Wayne likes to ease the bullpen in, a few new young guys a season, we have Bray, Coffey as locks, as well as Maj when he returns, Wayne is hoping for some guys to solidify themselves, particularly as a closer and then bring some more young guys along. Makes sense, but I for one would much rather see Burton make it than Cormier

REDREAD
03-15-2007, 05:22 PM
True.
Can a possible championship team (the goal) go into spring training with Rule V, minor leaguers, and unsigned free agents fighting for 4 spots? That sounds a lot like a Bowden camp to me but honestly I don't know what would be best.

If we count Belisle as a roster spot, there's no open slots for Burton or any of the AAA guys. That's what I disagree with. Since we have a 12 man staff, it's not bad to have one position left open in spring training. I agree, 4 slots open is too much, that's why I don't mind the Lohse signing too much -- it's a depth move, although I expect mediocrity from him.

Eric_Davis
03-15-2007, 05:23 PM
Anyone see this game who can comment on the three doubles that Saarloos gave up. Were they legitimate doubles or was there some bad defense by the outfield, etc.

tripleaaaron
03-15-2007, 05:29 PM
Sure, it can always be worse. We could've given Weaver a 200 million dollar contract, but any team could say that.

Wayne gave out 2 year contracts to Weathers, Castro, and Stanton. That is potentially going to damage us next year as well.

Wayne had over 30 million dollars of financial flexiblity. Consider that no Reds' GM has ever had that much money to play with. When you have that much cash, I really wouldn't mind if Wayne overpaid for a good player. He wasn't limited to free agency either. He could've tried to pry an expensive player away from a small market team or done any of the other tricks the big market teams use to get talent. He had over 30 million, but settled on mediocrity.

I see what your saying, Weathers is still solid, and if we like Castro so much as a teacher we should make him a coach, and Stanton, why? But Krivsky felt he needed to solidify the roster in more areas than just one. It can be argued that we have guys with more talent/ability ready to slide in to each one of those players roles, but I guess it comes down to the organization feeling they would be better served by delaying the roster flip until a better market emerges, or to by time while shuffling players in to see if they can stick. We have alot of prospects beside the 2-3 that can be capable contributing Major leaguers, Hopper, denorfia, Gil, etc. and many Relief/starters on that same level, the question is can they do it now, and for some ever? So with this lack of TOP prospects ready now, we must have backup plans if they dont stick, although we didn't see alot of this gradual introductions, we may see more of it this season and next, and these players are solid cheap gateways. Would I like to see us sign a Carlos Lee or a Barry Zito, yes, but not in our current situation, we need to move a Dunn or a Griffey or a Milton before we can afford to.

CTA513
03-15-2007, 05:45 PM
Who else pitched? I know Saarloos, Stanton, Wilson, and Gosling.

Saarloos: 4 IP, 7 H, 5 ER, 0 BB, 4 K
Stanton: 1 IP, 5 H, 4 ER, 0 BB, 1 K
Wilson: 2.2 IP, 8 H, 4 ER, 1 BB, 4 K
Gosling: 1/3 IP, 0 H, 0 ER, 0 BB, 0 K

BRM
03-15-2007, 06:04 PM
Saarloos: 4 IP, 7 H, 5 ER, 0 BB, 4 K
Stanton: 1 IP, 5 H, 4 ER, 0 BB, 1 K
Wilson: 2.2 IP, 8 H, 4 ER, 1 BB, 4 K
Gosling: 1/3 IP, 0 H, 0 ER, 0 BB, 0 K

That's some pretty craptastic lines there.

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 06:12 PM
Anybody Mind if I do the PBP tonight? I'm kinda bored

Brent

BRM
03-15-2007, 06:16 PM
Jay Bruce gets the start in RF tonight according to Trent. Hamilton is out today.

Crosby CF
Hatteberg 1B
Encarnacion 3B
Dunn LF
Valentin C
Bellhorn 2B
Bruce RF
Castro SS
Livingston P


Hamilton is a scratch for today. His shin splints are still bothering him. Crosby moves to center and Jay Bruce is in right.

Stingray
03-15-2007, 06:23 PM
Skinner and Welch were talking about him this morning in glowing terms. They just don't figure the Reds can keep 2 Rule 5 guys on the team.

You can't if both perform like Rule 5 guys, but if one(i.e. JH) earns his keep you could keep 2. You'd probably(hopefully) have to eat one of the veteran contracts though. See this thread:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55434

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:01 PM
Here comes the PBP...

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:06 PM
McCutcheon leadoff single on the first pitch

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:07 PM
Apparently The Natural has the night off

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:09 PM
Bixler Singles; McCutcheon to 2B

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:13 PM
2-0 Pirates; Eldred Batting Nady K's AB Previous

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:16 PM
Eldred Walks.....1st and 3rd, 2 outs

Puig Your Red
03-15-2007, 07:17 PM
I thought it started at 6?

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:17 PM
Castro gets the force....Headed to bottom of 1...Pirates 2 Reds 0

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:18 PM
I thought it started at 6?

No.....7......unless are u on Central Time? lol

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:19 PM
While listening to the "Sounds of Spring Training" as "Steve" Puts it....makes me think all games should be commercial free

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:20 PM
Bubba Crosby is tonight Hooters Hungry Hitter; Leading Off

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:22 PM
HHH Flies out to Center one down....Hatteberg batting

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:23 PM
Hatteberg pops out to Jason Bay....EdE Batting

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:25 PM
EdE draws a walk...Dunner Batting

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:27 PM
Dunner singles to left, EdE to second....Javy batting

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:28 PM
Javy Flies out to RF...End of 1 Eye Patch Guys 2 Crimsons 0

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:30 PM
Jose Hernandez up to bat for the Eye Patch Guys

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:31 PM
Hernandez singles into Center.....Chacon batting

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:32 PM
Javy with the Sacrifice, one down, McCutcheon batting;Hernandez to 2B

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:34 PM
Manos De Oro with the put away on the popout 2 Down; Bixler Batting

GSURedsfan
03-15-2007, 07:36 PM
Livingston K's Bixler..... through 1.5 innings Eye Patch Guys 2 Crimsons 0

Chip R
03-15-2007, 07:37 PM
We have another game thread stickied so I'm gonna shut this one down, guys.