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redsmetz
03-16-2007, 10:38 AM
Here's the premise:



Vada Pinson or Eric Davis

Tough Question. I'll take Vada's Career (but I'd rather have Davis at his peak).

Excellent answer - Vada Pinson is one of those unsung players who was absolutely fabulous, but played in the shadow of many other great outfielders of his day (Robinson, Aaron, Mays, Mantle, Cededa, etc - and I know I'm leaving off some others).

But Eric Davis in his prime was just unbelievable.

We've been blessed as Reds fans to have some very terrific outfielders down through the years. I doubt you could ever really do justice to an all-time Reds outfield.

Using whatever criteria you want, what three outfielders would you choose for the All-Time Reds outfield? I'm very light on the first half of the 20th century, so let me know if I left anybody off. Since the 1950's, frankly we've had a tremendous number of good outfielders. I can see why in 1960, Reds fans named Edd Roush the top Reds player up to then.

The outfielders should be judged only for their time as a Red.

SunDeck
03-16-2007, 10:51 AM
Tough to pick three. I went with Geronimo over Davis for my 3rd because I think he was better defensively. However, if I'm picking the overall better player, then Davis would be the one.

Johnny Footstool
03-16-2007, 10:57 AM
Whither Eddie Milner, Gary Redus, Kal Daniels, Paul Householder, and the immortal Rolando Roomes?

Razor Shines
03-16-2007, 11:02 AM
Wow, no love for Jr so far. In his prime who on that list was better? Or are we voting only on what they did as a Red?

Always Red
03-16-2007, 11:05 AM
I went with FRobby, Pinson and Roush. Three HoF caliber careers, there. Pinson often gets overlooked, probably because he played alongside Robinson.

Eric Davis had more talent than any player I ever witnessed, except for John Bench. There was nothing Davis did not do well on the field. It's unfortunate the injuries derailed his career.

Geronimo was an excellent CF, with a rifle arm. He hit just enough, but not enough for me to consider him one of the three best.

Rose- sheesh, what do you do with Rose? I'd rather consider him at 3B for the Reds, but he did win 2 Gold GLoves in the OF for the Reds. I wouldn't rank him above the other three, though. Of interest, for the Reds, Rose played 1299 games in the OF, 629 at 3B, 627 at 2B, and 197 at 1B.

Red Leader
03-16-2007, 11:16 AM
I went with Robinson, Foster, and Davis.

I'm assuming we are going off of their careers as Reds, not on just "peak years" or "entire careers."

Also, I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about the older guys on the list, so that swayed my vote as well.

texasdave
03-16-2007, 11:23 AM
Wow, no love for Jr so far. In his prime who on that list was better? Or are we voting only on what they did as a Red?

I thought it was only what they did as a Red. I could be wrong.

westofyou
03-16-2007, 11:28 AM
All Time?

Roush/Robby/Vada

Nice fielding combo too.

redsmetz
03-16-2007, 11:35 AM
Wow, no love for Jr so far. In his prime who on that list was better? Or are we voting only on what they did as a Red?

Only their time as a Red. I'll edit the post to clarify that.

Johnny Footstool
03-16-2007, 11:35 AM
I voted based on the player's career with the Reds, not their overall career.

Kevin Mitchell should definitely qualify in the "what they did as a Red" category. In his first two abbreviated seasons in Cincinnati, all he did was OPS .986 and 1.110. His '94 season was like a cartoon (310 ABs, 30 HR, .429 OPB, .681 SLG).

George Anderson
03-16-2007, 11:36 AM
Robinson and Pinson were no brainers for me. I had a hard time picking between Foster and Roush but in the end I picked Foster just simply because I think Foster played during an era when the quality of play was better.

RedsBaron
03-16-2007, 11:39 AM
I voted for Robinson, Rose and Roush, the 3 R's.
Frank Robinson is the easy pick. He spent ten years with the Reds and arguably had the most productive decade of any player ever to wear a Reds uniform.
I can't imagine an all time Reds team without Pete Rose in the lineup somewhere (but then 20 years ago I couldn't imagine a Hall of Fame not eventually including Rose, either). Perhaps if we were selecting an all time team, I'd put Rose at third, but his best seasons, and his best position, came as an outfielder. Other Reds outfielders may have had individual seasons that were greater than any one season had by Rose, but no one was so good for so long as a Red.
Robby and Pete will man the corners; which one is in left and which one is in right can be decided later. That means I need a centerfielder.
I was tempted to pick George Foster, whose 52 HR season in 1977 was one of the greatest years any Red has ever had. Foster was great for about seven seasons in all, although not always at the level he reached in 1977. Unfortunately, one thing Foster never was was a great fielder. If I took him, then I had to play Robinson or Rose in center, and that wouldn't work.
I considered Eric Davis, who for a few months in 1987 looked like the second coming of Willie Mays, but Eric couldn't sustain that production, nor could he stay healthy.
If Ken Griffey Jr. had had his peak seasons in the 1990s with the Reds, he would be an easy pick, but he was a Mariner then. He had good seasons with the Reds in 2000 and 2005, but that isn't enough to make this team.
I almost picked Vada Pinson, a true centerfielder and quality all around talent. However, I finally went with Roush, whose batting numbers looked to me to be significantly better than those of Pinson's.

mth123
03-16-2007, 12:29 PM
Only three is pretty tough.

Using very simple logic.

1. All-Time Hit Leader with Top 5 listings on a ton of all time Record Books.
2. Hall of Fame RF who had most (not all) of his best years with the Reds and has over 500 Career HR.
3. Old-Time Red who was regarded as the greatest red of all prior to the 70's who had the lions share if his HOF career in a Reds uniform.

Others are tempting but just don't have the credentials as a Red that those three guys do.

Vada Pinson would be my 4th choice followed by George Foster.

Eric Davis had too short a career as a top player. Dave Parker didn't play enough years with the Reds. Ken Griffey Jr hasn't been anything resembling an all-time player during his Cincinnati stint.

An interesting one is Ival Goodman. He was a 5 tool player before anyone had heard of such a thing. Unfortunately just as his power game was emerging, an injury derailed his career. In 1938 he was leading the league in HR at the All Star break. During the All Star game he collided with the bricks in Wrigley Field, permanently injuring his shoulder and hampering his power stroke. He was mostly a singles hitter after that and faded too quickly. One has to wonder what current medicine might have been able to do for him.

Adam Dunn has a chance to put a lot of numbers on the board before he's done. If he keeps going even at 2006 levels, it would be hard to keep his eventual HR, Run and RBI numbers off the team no matter how many times he K's or what his defense may be.

The rest don't measure up.

Its Rose LF, Roush CF, Robinson RF.

M2
03-16-2007, 12:37 PM
Logic be damned - I'd want to see Roush, Davis and Robby play together.

PuffyPig
03-16-2007, 12:50 PM
Robinson and Rose are no brainers. There careers were long and productive, with their best years with the Reds.

The third pick is harder.

Roush is probably easily deserving, but I never saw him play, so it's easier for me to ignore him. Not logical, I would admit.

So for me, it came down to Foster, Davis and Pinson.

Foster had the best peak years, but his career was relativly short. The same can be said for Davis. Both were wondweful ballpalyers.

I went with Pinson, because he was a great player, over many years, but was easily overlooked. He needed my vote more. He also brought us Granger and Tolan in a trade so he was productive even after he left.

RedsBaron
03-16-2007, 01:41 PM
An interesting one is Ival Goodman. He was a 5 tool player before anyone had heard of such a thing. Unfortunately just as his power game was emerging, an injury derailed his career. In 1938 he was leading the league in HR at the All Star break. During the All Star game he collided with the bricks in Wrigley Field, permanently injuring his shoulder and hampering his power stroke. He was mostly a singles hitter after that and faded too quickly. One has to wonder what current medicine might have been able to do for him.



Your post caused me to look up Goodman's stats. His power really did do a nose dive after 1938, when he hit 30 HRs to go with a .292 average. Those 30 HRs ranked second in the NL that season. He also had a .533 slugging percentage for 4th in the NL, and was an All Star. Goodman was also an All Star the next season, but while he hit .323, his HRs fell to 7.
However he was also age 29 that season, in an era when players tended not to remain at an elite level for as long, so he perhaps just had his peak season before age took its toll. I really don't know that much about him.

redsfanmia
03-16-2007, 03:20 PM
Wow I cant believe Adam Dunn actually got votes.

redsupport
03-16-2007, 03:26 PM
I go for Greg Tubbs, Gary Varsho, and Cesar hernandez as the first unit
Clyde Mashore, Andy Kosko and Angel bravo a close second

tripleaaaron
03-16-2007, 03:28 PM
I failed to read the premise before voting, had this been an all time greatest outfielders list my vote would stand, but I must remove Jr, with the premise that it must include only body of work as a red, sorry for the confusion

dougdirt
03-16-2007, 03:30 PM
I take Eric Davis, George Foster and Frank Robinson.

Pete Rose was a very good player, but in my outfield I want sluggers.

Bigredfan#1
03-16-2007, 03:35 PM
If you go by the greatness of the player rather than what he did in Cincy you can't leave Griffey off! I went Frank Robinson, Rose and Griffey.

mth123
03-16-2007, 05:23 PM
I go for Greg Tubbs, Gary Varsho, and Cesar hernandez as the first unit
Clyde Mashore, Andy Kosko and Angel bravo a close second

What? No Ted Savage?

Cyclone792
03-16-2007, 07:02 PM
Rose- sheesh, what do you do with Rose? I'd rather consider him at 3B for the Reds, but he did win 2 Gold GLoves in the OF for the Reds. I wouldn't rank him above the other three, though. Of interest, for the Reds, Rose played 1299 games in the OF, 629 at 3B, 627 at 2B, and 197 at 1B.

I'd put Pete Rose in left field, Edd Roush in center field, and Frank Robinson in right field. Vada Pinson would be my fourth outfielder, and George Foster would be my fifth outfielder.

Part of me is surprised at the lack of support Roush is receiving, and part of me isn't surprised. Granted, Roush played during an era that nobody alive on these forums witnessed, but the guy was an amazing player and is also underrated, IMO. Not to mention, Roush was a pretty darn good defensive center fielder too.

Pete Rose at third base isn't a bad option, but I'd probably take Heinie Groh there instead and slide Rose out to left field. Groh has a lot of things going for him that many people often forget. He played during a time when third base was considered much more of a defensive position than it is today, he played during an abysmal offensive era, he played in pitcher's parks, and his peak years were cut short in 1918 and 1919 due to World War I. IMO, he's one of the most underrated players of all-time, and I'd actually support putting Heinie Groh in the Hall of Fame.

marcshoe
03-16-2007, 07:26 PM
I'm sitting here, looking at the poll, and suddenly realizing I left Rose off my ballot.

crazybob60
03-16-2007, 07:28 PM
I don't know much about the early, early Reds OF's but I still went with Roush from what I have heard about him, Frank Robinson of course because he simply is one of the Reds best all-around power hitters ever, and the last one I went with Eric Davis simply because during his time with the Reds, when he was healthy, there simply was nobody better that played that position. Sure Pete Rose could be slipped on there, but again, as an OF as someone else stated on here, I am looking for some power and also in Rose, I see him as more of an IF than an OF even though he played more games as an OF in his career.

Betterread
03-16-2007, 07:33 PM
Robinson, Griffey, Jr. and Davis. Pinson was the tough one to leave out. Rose is an infielder in my perception. Roush and Goodman - they are way before my time.
Foster has more votes than Junior? I don't understand that at all.

Degenerate39
03-16-2007, 08:18 PM
What? No Ted Savage?

Isnt that the guy off the Wonder Years?

Redlegs
03-16-2007, 08:25 PM
I voted for Pete, Robby, and Wally Post. Honestly, I voted for Post because he, along with Tony Perez, was the all-time favorites of my late father.

As far as defensive outfielders go, I put Cesar Geronimo at the very top of the list. Nobody was better than The Chief.

Redlegs
03-16-2007, 08:27 PM
Robinson, Griffey, Jr. and Davis. Pinson was the tough one to leave out. Rose is an infielder in my perception. Roush and Goodman - they are way before my time.
Foster has more votes than Junior? I don't understand that at all.

If you're going on accomplishments while in a Reds uniform, there's no way Junior ranks ahead of Foster, IMO.

RedsBaron
03-16-2007, 08:40 PM
If you're going on accomplishments while in a Reds uniform, there's no way Junior ranks ahead of Foster, IMO.

And if you are just going purely on career accomplishments rather than what the player did in a Reds uniform, then Christy Mathewson, who won exactly one game with the Reds and 372 with the Giants, becomes the greatest pitcher in Reds history. I think you have to go with accomplishments while in a Reds uniform when selecting an all time Reds team, but that's just my opinion.

Redlegs
03-16-2007, 10:16 PM
And if you are just going purely on career accomplishments rather than what the player did in a Reds uniform, then Christy Mathewson, who won exactly one game with the Reds and 372 with the Giants, becomes the greatest pitcher in Reds history. I think you have to go with accomplishments while in a Reds uniform when selecting an all time Reds team, but that's just my opinion.
Isn't that what I said???

RedsBaron
03-17-2007, 07:51 AM
Isn't that what I said???

Yes it was. My post was intended to be an "amen." I agree with you.

Highlifeman21
03-17-2007, 12:53 PM
Dunn, Robinson, Pinson

That's my story, and I'm stickin to it.

Betterread
03-17-2007, 01:00 PM
If you're going on accomplishments while in a Reds uniform, there's no way Junior ranks ahead of Foster, IMO.
I read the poll to be the best Reds' all-time outfielders. I did not read into that to mean - "the outfielders that accomplished the most for the Reds while they played for the club". They are different questions: one is qualitative and one is quantitative. I chose the qualitative approach, while you chose the quantitative.
If you think Foster was a better OFer for the Reds than Griffey, you are entitled to your opinion.

Christy Mathewson pitched for the Reds? I didn't know that.

westofyou
03-17-2007, 01:45 PM
Christy Mathewson pitched for the Reds? I didn't know that.

His last game in MLB, against 3 Finger Brown, in what was likely his last game as well. The advertising was akin to when the Reds called up Stephan Larkin and Pete Rose Jr.

PickOff
03-17-2007, 02:20 PM
His last game in MLB, against 3 Finger Brown, in what was likely his last game as well. The advertising was akin to when the Reds called up Stephan Larkin and Pete Rose Jr.

Stephan was one heck of a basketball player for the Reds charity circuit, unfortunatley for Petey Jr. he couldn't crack the lineup there either.

RedsManRick
03-17-2007, 02:52 PM
I went with Davis, Robinson, and Roush. That OF would be amazing defensively, and have power, average, and speed. Thinking basically guys at their prime. Hard to pass on Foster -- he'd be the 4th without question.

redsmetz
03-17-2007, 04:48 PM
Here's a little info on Roush from the Hall of Fame


Bio
Edd Roush batted .323 over 18 years while impressing fans with his acrobatic catches in center field. He hit over .300 11 consecutive times and won batting crowns in 1917 and 1919, while also leading the Reds to a World Championship the latter season. A swift line-drive hitter who seldom struck out, his career totals included 182 triples and 30 inside-the-park home runs. The willful Roush was an annual spring holdout, once even sitting out the entire 1930 season in a salary dispute.

Quote
"Eddie used to take care of the whole outfield, not just center field. He was far and away the best outfielder I ever saw."

— teammate Heinie Groh

Did You Know... that Edd Roush, who used a massive, 46-ounce Louisville Slugger, claimed that he never broke a bat in his big league career?

Yachtzee
03-17-2007, 05:52 PM
Logic be damned - I'd want to see Roush, Davis and Robby play together.

Those are my picks as well. That would be a tremendous outfield. I would have Pinson and Foster as my fourth and fifth outfielders.

What about Pete Rose? Well, I think Pete Rose is one of those players where you could look at him at 3rd, 2nd, and 1st as well. As a Red, he pretty much moved around to play wherever the Reds had a need. I think on an all-time Reds team, you'd have to look at how he matches up with the top players at each of the positions he played and insert him at the position that seems to be weakest as far as all-time Reds go. Given the fact that Barry Larkin and Johnny Bench have C and SS covered, you don't have to worry about the weakest position being one that Rose did not play (not counting P). With Morgan at 2nd, I'd probably have to see how Rose matches up with Groh at 3rd and Perez at 1st. In any case, as far as all-time teams go, the Reds would have a pretty formidable line-up.

redsfanmia
03-17-2007, 05:52 PM
Dunn, Robinson, Pinson

That's my story, and I'm stickin to it.

Seriously how do you vote for Dunn?

Redlegs
03-17-2007, 05:59 PM
I read the poll to be the best Reds' all-time outfielders. I did not read into that to mean - "the outfielders that accomplished the most for the Reds while they played for the club". They are different questions: one is qualitative and one is quantitative. I chose the qualitative approach, while you chose the quantitative.
If you think Foster was a better OFer for the Reds than Griffey, you are entitled to your opinion.

Christy Mathewson pitched for the Reds? I didn't know that.
Doesn't quantative lead to qualitative? While playing outfield for the Reds, Foster was a five time all-star outfielder, an NL MVP award winner, he led the majors in HR in 1977 while batting .320 in that same season, and he won 2 world championships. Griffey's done none of those things while wearing the wishbone C on his cap. Griffey has obviously been a better defensive outfielder, but even with that being said, I remeber Foster catching a flyout and gunning a man at the plate in the '75 series for a doubleplay.

M2
03-17-2007, 06:14 PM
I read the poll to be the best Reds' all-time outfielders. I did not read into that to mean - "the outfielders that accomplished the most for the Reds while they played for the club". They are different questions: one is qualitative and one is quantitative. I chose the qualitative approach, while you chose the quantitative.
If you think Foster was a better OFer for the Reds than Griffey, you are entitled to your opinion.

Christy Mathewson pitched for the Reds? I didn't know that.

I took "Reds All-Time Outfield" to mean that we're talking about what they did while they were wearing the uniform.

Mathewson was traded to the Reds on June 20, 1916, along with Edd Roush and Bill McKecknie. He took the mound once for the franchise, a complete game 10-8 win against the Cubs. Then he became the team's manager for a the next two seasons until he tired of Hal Chase throwing ballgames and decided to enlist to go fight in WWI. During training he inhaled mustard gas, which would lead to his untimely death at age 45.

dougdirt
03-17-2007, 06:38 PM
Really....which 19% of you didnt vote Frank Robinson as one of the Reds top 3 outfielders? Identify yourselves.

Red Daddy
03-17-2007, 07:12 PM
Tough to pick three. I went with Geronimo over Davis for my 3rd because I think he was better defensively. However, if I'm picking the overall better player, then Davis would be the one.

I'm not with you on this. Eric Davis was amazing in the OF and at the plate. Remember the diving catch in the World Series against the A's. He always got hurt in the OF making amazing plays. Then when he would bat, 27 hrs-80 SBs, 37 hrs- 50 SBs, etc. Geronimo was a great defenders and a good 8th hitter.

redsmetz
03-17-2007, 07:35 PM
The question about judging came up early, so I added this caveat:


The outfielders should be judged only for their time as a Red.

Betterread
03-17-2007, 09:06 PM
The question about judging came up early, so I added this caveat:

You added a clarification (that I failed to read and would have helped make the point of your poll clearer), which is different from a caveat, which is a warning. (ex. - "caveat lector" - a Latin phrase meaning "Let the reader beware."

WMR
03-17-2007, 10:28 PM
Robinson/Griffey Jr./Roush

redsmetz
03-18-2007, 01:12 AM
You added a clarification (that I failed to read and would have helped make the point of your poll clearer), which is different from a caveat, which is a warning. (ex. - "caveat lector" - a Latin phrase meaning "Let the reader beware."

Sorry you missed it. I had overlooked it in the first hour or so and added that addendum. BTW, one meaning of caveat is clarification, and that's what my added line was.



v. tr. Informal
To qualify with a warning or clarification: The spokesperson caveated the statement with a reminder that certain facts were still unknown.

Highlifeman21
03-18-2007, 01:43 AM
Seriously how do you vote for Dunn?

Dunn's accomplished some things already in his short career very few have accomplished. I don't remember them exactly off the top of my head, but IIRC, he was on a short list of like 6 guys for accomplishing something before age 26 or 27. I'm sure westofyou or M2 or Cyclone could remind me of his positive accomplishments.

That's how I vote for Dunn.

Dunn and Robinson were the no brainers for me. It was a close race between Roush and Pinson, but Pinson's D won him over for me.

My question to you is why not Adam Dunn?

WVRedsFan
03-18-2007, 02:00 AM
When I voted, there was no doubt aobut two of the outfielders. None. Showing my age here, I witnessedsome of the greatest plays in Reds history while Robinson and Pinson were in the outfield at old Crosley Field. Those two were keepers offensively and defensively. My problem was the third outfielder. IIRC, Foster player left field almost exclusively and I can't remember any great plays by him, which is unusual. Of course, the offense was there. The only other player I could remember was Eric Davis who shined in both aspects. My assumption is an outfield of Frank Robinson, Vada Pinson and Eric Davis would have been special. With 90+ homeruns, 300 RBI's, etc.

I can't identify with anything Edd Roush did because he was way befrore my time. I also anted to give Griffey some props, but his career herehas been so injury plagued that even with the flashes of brilliance, he still is fourth on my all-time list.

OnBaseMachine
03-18-2007, 02:38 AM
I voted for Eric Davis, Adam Dunn, and Frank Robinson as my top three Reds outfielders on all-time. I also voted for Vada Pinson accidentally but pay no attention to that. I based my votes on what these players did in Reds uniforms - not in their overall careers - or otherwise Ken Griffey Jr. would have been in my top three. Let me give a brief explanation as to why I voted for these three players.

Frank Robinson - the easiest choice of the three for me. A member of the Reds and MLB Hall of Fame, Robinson ranks in the top five in most Reds offensive categories: 1st in homers with 324, 3rd in OBP at .389, 1st in SLG at .554, 1st in OPS at .943, and 7th in walks at 698.

Eric Davis - possibly the most talented of the group. Injuries derailed him for parts of his career but he still managed to have a great career. Also a member of the Reds HOF, he too could be a part of Cooperstown if not for the injury bug. Davis ranks 6th on the Reds all-time HR list with 203 homers and 5th in OPS at .877.

Adam Dunn - I know a lot of people will think I'm crazy for choosing Dunn in the top three but consider this: Dunn is only 27 years old and is already 7th on the Reds all-time HR list with 198 homers and he could climb as high as 4th or 5th this season. He also ranks 10th in walks, 4th in OBP, 4th in SLG, and 2nd in OPS. By the time his career in over, Dunn will rank first in homers, walks, and possibily other categories. Dunn is currently on a pace to hit over 600 career homeruns. That's reason enough to crack my top three.

redsmetz
03-18-2007, 04:15 AM
When I voted, there was no doubt aobut two of the outfielders. None. Showing my age here, I witnessedsome of the greatest plays in Reds history while Robinson and Pinson were in the outfield at old Crosley Field. Those two were keepers offensively and defensively. My problem was the third outfielder. IIRC, Foster player left field almost exclusively and I can't remember any great plays by him, which is unusual. Of course, the offense was there. The only other player I could remember was Eric Davis who shined in both aspects. My assumption is an outfield of Frank Robinson, Vada Pinson and Eric Davis would have been special. With 90+ homeruns, 300 RBI's, etc.

I can't identify with anything Edd Roush did because he was way befrore my time. I also anted to give Griffey some props, but his career herehas been so injury plagued that even with the flashes of brilliance, he still is fourth on my all-time list.

I found this on a review of the 1976 Series DVD:


George Foster's throw from left field to Johnny Bench in Game 6 to nail Denny Doyle at the plate. (I can vividly recall the ecstasy of seeing the umpire's "out" call to complete this double play and keep Game 6 tied.)

Always Red
03-18-2007, 07:43 AM
I didn't vote for Adam Dunn, but I cannot fault those who did.

Here is a list of all-time Reds leaders in OPS:

OPS
Rank Player OPS (plate appearances)
1. Frank Robinson .943 (6409)
2. Adam Dunn .893 (3466)
3. Ken Griffey .891 (2856)
4. Joe Morgan .885 (4973)
5. Eric Davis .877 (3819)
6. George Foster .870 (5010)
7. Ted Kluszewski .869 (5404)
8. Cy Seymour .841 (2420)
Dmitri Young .841 (2178)
10. Edd Roush .839 (5965)

RedsBaron
03-18-2007, 09:43 AM
I based my votes for Roush, Robinson and Rose based primarily upon what they did in their careers as a Red. If I instead picked an outfield based solely upon each player's peak season as a Red, I'd probably take Robinson's 1962 season, Foster's 1977 season, and Davis's 1987 season.
Of course, if I did that, Rose might get left off the team entirely, as I might very well take Perez's 1970 season while he was a thirdbaseman and Klu's 1954 season as a firstbaseman, leaving nowhere for Rose (Pete isn't ever going to be the pick over Morgan at second).

Redlegs
03-18-2007, 11:09 AM
I found this on a review of the 1976 Series DVD:



It was '75.

M2
03-18-2007, 11:14 AM
I based my votes for Roush, Robinson and Rose based primarily upon what they did in their careers as a Red. If I instead picked an outfield based solely upon each player's peak season as a Red, I'd probably take Robinson's 1962 season, Foster's 1977 season, and Davis's 1987 season.
Of course, if I did that, Rose might get left off the team entirely, as I might very well take Perez's 1970 season while he was a thirdbaseman and Klu's 1954 season as a firstbaseman, leaving nowhere for Rose (Pete isn't ever going to be the pick over Morgan at second).

Larkin '95 or '96? I'm assuming Bench '72 is the catcher.

All Deadball Team:

OF - Cy Seymour 1905, Mike Donlin 1903, Edd Roush 1917, Sam Crawford 1902 - having trouble sorting that one out
3B - Heinie Groh 1917 or 1919

Any suggestions on others?

Always Red
03-18-2007, 11:33 AM
Here is a list of all-time Reds leaders in OPS:

OPS
Rank Player OPS (plate appearances)
1. Frank Robinson .943 (6409)
2. Adam Dunn .893 (3466)
3. Ken Griffey .891 (2856)
4. Joe Morgan .885 (4973)
5. Eric Davis .877 (3819)
6. George Foster .870 (5010)
7. Ted Kluszewski .869 (5404)
8. Cy Seymour .841 (2420)
Dmitri Young .841 (2178)
10. Edd Roush .839 (5965)

There are two amazing things to me on this list, other than Adam Dunn is 2nd all time in OPS.

The first is the OPS Roush compiled during the dead ball era, for not being a home run hitter at all (he had 68 in 18 seasons). But he had a ton of triples (182).

The second is that Ken Griffey, Jr is 3rd, all time in Reds OPS, even though his career here in Cincinnati has been largely a disappointment, mostly due to injury. When Junior has played, he's played very well!

mth123
03-18-2007, 11:42 AM
There are two amazing things to me on this list, other than Adam Dunn is 2nd all time in OPS.

The first is the OPS Roush compiled during the dead ball era, for not being a home run hitter at all (he had 68 in 18 seasons). But he had a ton of triples (182).

The second is that Ken Griffey, Jr is 3rd, all time in Reds OPS, even though his career here in Cincinnati has been largely a disappointment, mostly due to injury. When Junior has played, he's played very well!

Dunn and Griffey aren't really a surprise. Its a sign of the times...

Top 15 League Ave OPS since 1900:




Year BA OBP Slg OPS
1930 0.303 0.360 0.448 0.808
1929 0.294 0.357 0.426 0.783
2000 0.266 0.342 0.432 0.774
1999 0.268 0.342 0.429 0.771
1925 0.292 0.348 0.414 0.762
2006 0.265 0.334 0.427 0.761
2004 0.263 0.333 0.423 0.756
2001 0.261 0.331 0.425 0.756
1922 0.292 0.348 0.404 0.752
2003 0.262 0.332 0.417 0.749
1994 0.267 0.333 0.415 0.748
1953 0.266 0.335 0.411 0.746
2005 0.262 0.330 0.414 0.744
1997 0.263 0.333 0.410 0.743
1954 0.265 0.335 0.407 0.742

redsfanmia
03-18-2007, 11:46 AM
Dunn's accomplished some things already in his short career very few have accomplished. I don't remember them exactly off the top of my head, but IIRC, he was on a short list of like 6 guys for accomplishing something before age 26 or 27. I'm sure westofyou or M2 or Cyclone could remind me of his positive accomplishments.

That's how I vote for Dunn.

Dunn and Robinson were the no brainers for me. It was a close race between Roush and Pinson, but Pinson's D won him over for me.

My question to you is why not Adam Dunn?

He is a one trick pony and one of the worst defensive outfielder I have ever seen and he has basically admitted to dogging it for the last 5 years. Dunn is not in the same ballpark as Davis, Foster, Pinson, Robinson and so on.

mth123
03-18-2007, 11:49 AM
There are two amazing things to me on this list, other than Adam Dunn is 2nd all time in OPS.

The first is the OPS Roush compiled during the dead ball era, for not being a home run hitter at all (he had 68 in 18 seasons). But he had a ton of triples (182).

The second is that Ken Griffey, Jr is 3rd, all time in Reds OPS, even though his career here in Cincinnati has been largely a disappointment, mostly due to injury. When Junior has played, he's played very well!

... But you are right about Roush. Many of the bottom 15 seasons overlap with his career.



Year BA OBP Slg OPS
1942 0.249 0.318 0.343 0.661
1914 0.251 0.317 0.334 0.651
1919 0.258 0.311 0.337 0.648
1905 0.255 0.315 0.332 0.647
1968 0.243 0.300 0.341 0.641
1915 0.248 0.309 0.331 0.640
1918 0.254 0.311 0.328 0.639
1917 0.249 0.305 0.328 0.633
1902 0.259 0.313 0.319 0.632
1916 0.247 0.303 0.328 0.631
1904 0.249 0.306 0.322 0.628
1909 0.244 0.310 0.314 0.624
1906 0.244 0.310 0.310 0.620
1907 0.243 0.308 0.309 0.617
1908 0.239 0.299 0.306 0.605

westofyou
03-18-2007, 11:51 AM
Reds OF OPS VS the league all time, 2000 PA to get in the door.




OPS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Frank Robinson .198 .933 .735
2 Cy Seymour .174 .841 .667
3 Charley Jones .172 .807 .635
4 Eric Davis .153 .877 .725
5 George Foster .152 .870 .718
6 Pete Rose .124 .833 .710
7 Adam Dunn .119 .892 .774
8 Edd Roush .119 .839 .721
9 Ken Griffey Jr. .110 .890 .780
10 Bug Holliday .100 .823 .723

As a franchise the Reds game has been one that was pitching and defense for 50 years and then one that was hitting centric, if you take the eras (including 19th Century) and break them up then you get the top ten as thus:


CINCINNATI REDS
1876-1899
OPS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Charley Jones .172 .807 .635
2 Bug Holliday .100 .823 .723
3 Dusty Miller .043 .788 .744
4 Dummy Hoy .011 .794 .782
5 Pop Corkhill -.005 .640 .645

1900-1953
OPS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Cy Seymour .174 .841 .667
2 Edd Roush .119 .839 .721
3 Ival Goodman .062 .797 .734
4 Mike Mitchell .055 .732 .676
5 Curt Walker .042 .819 .777
6 Tommy Griffith .042 .697 .656
7 Pat Duncan .030 .776 .746
8 Bob Bescher .026 .721 .695
9 Johnny Wyrostek .008 .757 .749
10 Greasy Neale -.026 .652 .678

1954-2006
OPS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Frank Robinson .198 .933 .735
2 Eric Davis .153 .877 .725
3 George Foster .152 .870 .718
4 Pete Rose .124 .833 .710
5 Adam Dunn .119 .892 .774
6 Ken Griffey Jr. .110 .890 .780
7 Ken Griffey Sr. .091 .810 .719
8 Vada Pinson .089 .810 .721
9 Wally Post .080 .833 .752
10 Dave Parker .075 .803 .728

westofyou
03-18-2007, 11:56 AM
The first is the OPS Roush compiled during the dead ball era, for not being a home run hitter at all (he had 68 in 18 seasons). But he had a ton of triples (182).


The Reds were a big triples club back then, but the Pirates were bigger.

The top 2 players with triples in modern times are Honus Wagner and Paul Waner, both Pirates; in fact 2 other Pirates are in the top ten too. When perusing the top National League seasons in compiling triples once again you’ll trip over a six more Pirates, including the top two with number one (Chief Wilson) logging an incredible 36, 10 more than the nearest competitor.

Triples in the first 10 years of the 20th century


1900-1909
TRIPLES 3B
1 Pirates 925
2 Reds 825
3 Cardinals 661
4 Dodgers 642
5 Phillies 614
6 Cubs 593
7 Giants 555
8 Braves 482

In the National League’s “Modern Era” there have only been 22 teams that had 100 triples in a season the Pirates were 13 of them, 59% of the times it was accomplished. The Reds accomplished it 5 of those times. Only the Cincinnati and the Pittsburgh franchise can claim multiple teams with 100 triples in a single season


TRIPLES YEAR 3B
1 Pirates 1912 129
2 Pirates 1924 122
3 Reds 1926 120
4 Pirates 1930 119
5 Pirates 1929 116
T6 Pirates 1923 111
T6 Reds 1924 111
T8 Pirates 1903 110
T8 Pirates 1922 110
10 Pirates 1926 106
T11 Pirates 1925 105
T11 Reds 1911 105
T11 Pirates 1911 105
14 Pirates 1921 104
15 Giants 1911 103
16 Pirates 1904 102
T17 Reds 1905 101
T17 Cubs 1911 101
T19 Reds 1917 100
T19 Pirates 1900 100
T19 Braves 1921 100
T19 Pirates 1928 100

M2
03-18-2007, 11:57 AM
He is a one trick pony and one of the worst defensive outfielder I have ever seen and he has basically admitted to dogging it for the last 5 years. Dunn is not in the same ballpark as Davis, Foster, Pinson, Robinson and so on.

Dunn's at least a two-trick pony and at this point in his career he's running laps around Foster. George had some huge seasons from ages 27-32. If Dunn steps up in his prime relative to the way Foster did, the results will be awe inspiring.

So, did Foster dog it when he was young?

westofyou
03-18-2007, 12:01 PM
So, did Foster dog it when he was young?

I think they perception was somewhat there, in 1974 they didn't want to bring him up, despite needing a RH bat (they traded for Rettemund instead) The feeling in the FO was that he could use a season at AAA and specifically they wanted him to play some more under Vern Rapp, whom as we know the Reds felt was a strong hand to guide wayward ML youth.

M2
03-18-2007, 12:06 PM
I think they perception was somewhat there, in 1974 they didn't want to bring him up, despite needing a RH bat (they traded for Rettemund instead) The feeling in the FO was that he could use a season at AAA and specifically they wanted him to play some more under Vern Rapp, whom as we know the Reds felt was a strong hand to guide wayward ML youth.

Though is that dogging it or still having things to learn? I don't think it's terribly shocking that guy might not have been ready to pound major league pitching in his early 20s.

On a side note, Grimsley for Rettenmund and Junior Kennedy - Howsam's worst trade ever?

mth123
03-18-2007, 12:07 PM
Though is that dogging it or still having things to learn? I don't think it's terribly shocking that guy might not have been ready to pound major league pitching in his early 20s.

On a side note, Grimsley for Rettenmund and Junior Kennedy - Howsam's worst trade ever?

Hal McRae for Roger Nelson?

M2
03-18-2007, 12:10 PM
Hal McRae for Roger Nelson?

The only good thing about Nelson was his nickname, Spider.

westofyou
03-18-2007, 12:18 PM
On a side note, Grimsley for Rettenmund and Junior Kennedy - Howsam's worst trade ever?
Grimsley was a thorn in Sparky's side and his K rate was crap, loved him a good defense behind him that's for sure. Looking back at him I see why he was dealt, he was a generation gapper in a conservative town, he was the equivalent to everything Arroyo is today, without the K rate and teh disdain of the manager.


Hal McRae for Roger Nelson?

Nelson was the Royals 1968 #1 and the real deal was essentially Simpson for Nelson, two arm problems and two OF. Of course the Reds had tried McRae at 3rd (that was the position the Royals were going to use him at at the time of the trade) and decided he would never play OF in the NL so he was of no use to them on plastic is my guess. The Royals GM in consecutive winters acquired Amos Otis, Freddy Patek, John Mayberry and Hal McRae.. for basically nothing in the long run.

mth123
03-18-2007, 12:25 PM
Nelson was the Royals 1968 #1 and the real deal was essentially Simpson for Nelson, two arm problems and two OF. Of course the Reds had tried McRae at 3rd (that was the position the Royals were going to use him at at the time of the trade) and decided he would never play OF in the NL so he was of no use to them on plastic is my guess. The Royals GM in consecutive winters acquired Amos Otis, Freddy Patek, John Mayberry and Hal McRae.. for basically nothing in the long run.

You're right. It was Simpson and McRae for Nelson and Richie Scheinblum. If Nelson would have been healthy it could have been a good deal and McRae was more of an AL player (though I remember seeing him play 2B in the late 60's during a cup of coffee with the Reds).

M2
03-18-2007, 12:28 PM
Grimsley was a thorn in Sparky's side and his K rate was crap, loved him a good defense behind him that's for sure. Looking back at him I see why he was dealt, he was a generation gapper in a conservative town, he was the equivalent to everything Arroyo is today, without the K rate and teh disdain of the manager.

Still, it possibly cost them the division in 1974. The Dodgers had a dynamite year and perhaps there was no beating them in that division race, but Grimsley certainly would have helped.

Yachtzee
03-18-2007, 01:22 PM
I based my votes for Roush, Robinson and Rose based primarily upon what they did in their careers as a Red. If I instead picked an outfield based solely upon each player's peak season as a Red, I'd probably take Robinson's 1962 season, Foster's 1977 season, and Davis's 1987 season.
Of course, if I did that, Rose might get left off the team entirely, as I might very well take Perez's 1970 season while he was a thirdbaseman and Klu's 1954 season as a firstbaseman, leaving nowhere for Rose (Pete isn't ever going to be the pick over Morgan at second).

Rose as the all-time pinch-hitter/super-sub?

PickOff
03-18-2007, 02:00 PM
I had picked Robinson, Davis, and Foster. I'm looking at Rose as an infielder. Peak periods held more sway for me - because of this and his speed/defense, Davis joins the party. Robinson is a no-brainer. Foster was more difficult - but the man was a beast. It is also worth noting that of the outfielder's (as posted by WOY above),these three are the top in the modern era for OPS vs the league.

BigREDSfaninKY
03-18-2007, 02:25 PM
I went with Foster, Robinson and Davis. When I think of Rose, I think of him as a third basemen.

redsfanmia
03-18-2007, 03:47 PM
Dunn's at least a two-trick pony and at this point in his career he's running laps around Foster. George had some huge seasons from ages 27-32. If Dunn steps up in his prime relative to the way Foster did, the results will be awe inspiring.

So, did Foster dog it when he was young?

True Dunn is a two trick pony, power and walks. My point is some may think is a good/great player but he doesnt deserve to be included with some of the great Reds of the past.

Jpup
03-18-2007, 05:52 PM
Adam Dunn has been very, very good. I continue to wonder why people don't see that.

My picks were Davis, Robinson, and Rose. Foster and Dunn would have been next. I feel like when all is said and done that Adam Dunn will be one of the top 3 and it won't be close. I just hope we get the chance to watch him for many years in a Reds uniform.

westofyou
03-18-2007, 06:09 PM
My point is some may think is a good/great player but he doesnt deserve to be included with some of the great Reds of the past.

Actually his bat makes him part of the group despite his other warts, Foster wasn't a great 5 tooler, nor was Wally Post, Gus Bell, Rose, Parker or Pinson.. if those are the greats we are throwing around.

BTW Adam Dunn will be in the Reds all time top ten for PA's for OF's by seasons end, so he must be doing something right.


PLATE APPEARANCES PA
1 Vada Pinson 6850
2 Edd Roush 5965
3 Pete Rose 5753
4 Frank Robinson 5221
5 Gus Bell 5111
6 George Foster 5010
7 Ken Griffey Sr. 4596
8 Ival Goodman 4020
9 Curt Walker 3942
10 Eric Davis 3819
11 Cesar Geronimo 3736
12 Mike Mitchell 3550
13 Adam Dunn 3466
14 Wally Post 3313
15 Bob Bescher 3299

Driver62
03-19-2007, 04:21 PM
I can tell one thing from the voting. Most of the voters are young. My 3 picks were Frank Robinson, Wally Post and Gus Bell.
Maybe they don't have the stats that some of the others have but they played before the ball was juiced and league expansion which dilluted the talent. Some of the players on the list wouldn't even make the team back then.

George Anderson
03-19-2007, 04:32 PM
I can tell one thing from the voting. Most of the voters are young. My 3 picks were Frank Robinson, Wally Post and Gus Bell.
Maybe they don't have the stats that some of the others have but they played before the ball was juiced and league expansion which dilluted the talent. Some of the players on the list wouldn't even make the team back then.

I cannot get over the lack of love for Vada Pinson. His numbers are every bit the equivelant if not superior to Eric Davis, but yet Davis is killing him in votes.

westofyou
03-19-2007, 04:35 PM
Maybe they don't have the stats that some of the others have but they played before the ball was juiced and league expansion which dilluted the talent. I don't buy the juiced ball argument, sounds like the same old complaint, nary an ounce of proof.

As for diluted talent I venture that they were playing in a pool that wasn't that deep either, they just played when every team had or two token black players. As for their skill level that's one that I see as being power heavy in a power heavy era (and the 50's were as one dimensional as they come for style of play) Not to mention both made an out 7 times out of every 10 times they came to the dish in their careers.

Yachtzee
03-19-2007, 07:47 PM
I cannot get over the lack of love for Vada Pinson. His numbers are every bit the equivelant if not superior to Eric Davis, but yet Davis is killing him in votes.

I think that Pinson suffers from the fact that most of us have seen Eric Davis play, but not Pinson. I picked Davis, mainly because I saw how great he was. But it was a tough choice. I think if you had to pick guys based on where they played, you'd have Robinson in RF and Foster in LF, but then you have a log jam in CF with Roush, Pinson, and Davis.

RedsBaron
03-19-2007, 08:15 PM
I cannot get over the lack of love for Vada Pinson. His numbers are every bit the equivelant if not superior to Eric Davis, but yet Davis is killing him in votes.

Pinson had a longer and more productive career than Davis, but I do not believe Vada in his peak seasons of 1959, 1961 and 1963 was quite as great as Eric was in 1986, 1987 and 1989. I haven't run the Stats Neutralizer on those two, nor have I seen Win Shares data on the two, so I could be wrong.

M2
03-19-2007, 08:44 PM
Pinson was an old man when I saw him play (with the Royals), but I've never heard anyone call him the most exciting player they ever saw play the game (though one of our crew here did use his name for a handle for a while, might have been Scrap Irony/Biitner Pill). Eric Davis is the most exciting player I ever saw play the game of baseball.

RedsBaron
03-20-2007, 08:18 AM
I did run the Stats Neutralizer on Pinson and Davis's best seasons. Pinson's look a bit better, given the era he played in. In 1959 his adjusted numbers include 212 hits, a .313 average, 21 HRs, 86 RBI, 22 SB, a .367 OBP and a .504 SPT. In 1961, the adjusted numbers are 214 hits, a .338 average, 16 HRs, 88 RBI, 24 SB, a .373 OBP and .494 SPT. 1963 produces 220 hits, a .329 average, 24 HRs, 120 RBI, 29 SB, a .364 OBP and .542 SPT.
Eric Davis's adjusted numbers for 1986 are 116 hits, a .279 average, 27 HRs, 72 RBI, 81 SB, a .380 OBP and a .524 SPT. In 1987 he has 133 hits, a .284 average, 35 HRs, 94 RBI, 48 SB, a .388 OBP and a .573 SPT. In 1989 Davis has 136 hits, a .291 average, 36 HRs, 110 RBI, 22 SB, a .377 OBP and a .562 SPT.
Pinson's Win Shares in 1959, 1961 and 1963 were 27, 32 and 31.
Davis's Win Shares for 1986, 1987 and 1989 were 25, 30 and 26.
I think that George Anderson has a worthy argument.

George Anderson
03-20-2007, 10:34 AM
My biggest issue is Davis has well over twice the vote total that Pinson has. I wouldnt be suprised if Davis had more votes than Pinson considering few on this board myself included saw him play. But if you run the numbers they pretty much favor Pinson. I guess its just a generational thing that few here saw him play and dont appreciate how great he was.

I'd say a Vada Pinson bobblehead night should be in the works!!

redsmetz
03-23-2007, 09:40 AM
I thought I'd bump this post up for the last hour of voting.

redsmetz
03-23-2007, 11:50 AM
So here's the finish, the top seven. And frankly I think the top six would make two very good outfield corps. Clearly Edd Roush and Vada Pinson were hurt by folks not being familiar with them and if that's the case, I'd encourage folks to learn more about to steller outfielders for this club.

I was going to limit it to the top six, but I noticed Junior came in 7th and it should be noted that among this pantheon of outfielders, that's about right. When Griff has been on, he's played very well. The couple of years he's had decent seasons here get overlooked.

The reality is that this team has had a plethora of excellent outfielders, perhaps too often overlooked. I haven't checked it, but every player on this list have made the All Star game (except for Roush whose career pre-dates the game).

Thanks to all for participating. It's been fun and it was a very interesting discussion.



Frank Robinson 82.43%
Eric Davis 53.38%
Pete Rose 43.24%

George Foster 33.11%
Eddie Roush 24.32%
Vada Pinson 22.30%

Ken Griffey Jr. 20.95%