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View Full Version : Bailey, Votto among today's cuts



Danny Serafini
03-16-2007, 10:42 AM
From Trent's blog:

Don't have all the details yet, but...

Bailey, Votto, Meadows, Gosling among the cuts. Conway, Hannigan also. Will get more when i get em

Red Leader
03-16-2007, 10:43 AM
I would have liked to see Votto get a couple more PA's this spring, but in my heart, I knew he wasn't going to make the team out of spring training.

Jeff Conine just has too young of a body to allow that to happen.

Tom Servo
03-16-2007, 10:52 AM
Also from Trent:

UPDATE: OK. Ligtenberg and Meadows given outright release so they can try to hook on somewhere else. Neither wanted to go to AAA.

Bailey, Gosling, Conway, Hannigan reassigned to minor league camp.

Votto optioned to Class AAA Louisville

rotnoid
03-16-2007, 11:06 AM
I would have liked to see Votto get a couple more PA's this spring, but in my heart, I knew he wasn't going to make the team out of spring training.

Jeff Conine just has too young of a body to allow that to happen.

Between Conine and Hatte, we're talking about around 400 years of experience. Baseball Guy loves that stuff. The young whipper snappers didn't have a chance with Narron around. Unless, of course, they play the game the right way.

Always Red
03-16-2007, 11:12 AM
wow, the Ligtenberg experiment ended rather quickly. He pitched pretty well, actually. I'm guessing Hermanson is their guy, although I'd rather see them keep Burton from going back to the A's.

Roy Tucker
03-16-2007, 11:13 AM
I'm a little relieved Homer is getting sent down.

I was afraid he was going to experience some success and get rushed into the Reds' rotation. I'd rather see him brought up later in the season, eased into some long relief, and generally not as rushed.

I remember going to a mostly forgettable Reds Astros game in 2001. The Reds got off to an early lead and I thought they were going to win handily. The Astros brought in some kid just up from the minors who shut the Reds down utterly and completely in some middle relief. The Astros scored some runs and their bullpen then came in and wrapped up an Astros victory.

I remember whining and moaning in a RZ game report saying how pathetic the Reds were to let some kid by the name of Roy Oswalt to shut them down so badly whoever the heck he was. :dunno:

rotnoid
03-16-2007, 11:20 AM
I'm a little relieved Homer is getting sent down.

I was afraid he was going to experience some success and get rushed into the Reds' rotation. I'd rather see him brought up later in the season, eased into some long relief, and generally not as rushed.

I remember going to a mostly forgettable Reds Astros game in 2001. The Reds got off to an early lead and I thought they were going to win handily. The Astros brought in some kid just up from the minors who shut the Reds down utterly and completely in some middle relief. The Astros scored some runs and their bullpen then came in and wrapped up an Astros victory.

I remember whining and moaning in a RZ game report saying how pathetic the Reds were to let some kid by the name of Roy Oswalt to shut them down so badly whoever the heck he was. :dunno:

I agree with you except for the long relief part. Relieving and starting are two different animals. The preparation and the mindset are completely different. If Homer spends a few months at Louisville facing AAA hitters (which should be markedly better than those he saw in the Southern League) getting ready to be an MLB starter, I don't see the sense in sticking him in the pen. Especially since there is bound to be a rotation spot open this summer due to injury or ineffectiveness. To spend the time grooming him to be a starter and then stick him in the pen just so he can get to the big club seems like a waste of the past two years to me.

westofyou
03-16-2007, 11:24 AM
I agree with you except for the long relief part. Relieving and starting are two different animals. The preparation and the mindset are completely different. If Homer spends a few months at Louisville facing AAA hitters (which should be markedly better than those he saw in the Southern League) getting ready to be an MLB starter, I don't see the sense in sticking him in the pen. Especially since there is bound to be a rotation spot open this summer due to injury or ineffectiveness. To spend the time grooming him to be a starter and then stick him in the pen just so he can get to the big club seems like a waste of the past two years to me.

Earl Weaver and Sparky would disagree.

rotnoid
03-16-2007, 11:27 AM
Earl Weaver and Sparky would disagree.

Yeah, but what did they ever do? ;)

Johnny Footstool
03-16-2007, 11:31 AM
Earl Weaver and Sparky would disagree.

So would Tony Larussa and Dave Duncan.

And me, FWIW. I think it's important to let young pitchers gain experience in low-pressure situations. Let them learn how to get major league hitters out when the game isn't on the line. Then ease them into situations that are more meaningful.

Red Leader
03-16-2007, 11:34 AM
I used to be in the camp where I was in favor of bringing up a big time prospect like Bailey to pitch in a middle relief role to get his feet wet. These days, though, I think the best thing for Bailey would be if they brought him up, stuck him in the rotation and told him that he was going to be there for a long, long time. Even if they keep him on a strict pitch count in every start, I think the experience of starting the game is invaluable to him. Keep that same mindset. Bailey, from what I've heard from him this spring, knows he's going to struggle at times, and he's ok with that. He's going to use that experience to get better. He's not crushed by pitching poorly, and that's important. Most pitchers can't handle that and it ends up breaking them. Bailey has a good head on his shoulders and I think if you start him in the rotation, it does him better than starting him intially in the bullpen. That's one more thing that I think puts Bailey ahead of other prospects. Everybody's different, but I think Bailey should start in the rotation and stay there.

rotnoid
03-16-2007, 11:35 AM
So would Tony Larussa and Dave Duncan.

And me, FWIW. I think it's important to let young pitchers gain experience in low-pressure situations. Let them learn how to get major league hitters out when the game isn't on the line. Then ease them into situations that are more meaningful.

If that's the plan, why not leave him with the big club now? His stuff is superior to anyone currently in the pen.

Roy Tucker
03-16-2007, 11:37 AM
Just my opinion, but I'd like to see Homer make his first appearance in relief in a blow-out game on the road like the Astros did with Oswalt.

Not so much to groom him as a reliever, but just to get that first MLB appearance out of the way without an undue amount of pressure. Us Reds fans are treating Bailey as the Second Coming and I'm afraid if he made a home start, the pressure to succeed would be enormous and the impact of a failure disproportionately too much. Let him relieve in 3-4 games while ratcheting up the importance of the appearance and then let him have a start. Ease the boy in.

I looked it up and that 2001 season with Oswalt he went 14-3 with 20 starts in 28 games. That's a nice blend and I'd be very happy with that.

cincy09
03-16-2007, 11:39 AM
I remember whining and moaning in a RZ game report saying how pathetic the Reds were to let some kid by the name of Roy Oswalt to shut them down so badly whoever the heck he was.

And he has owned us every time since.

rotnoid
03-16-2007, 11:41 AM
I agree that some fans have been treating him as the Second Coming, but they're only following the lead of the front office. They way Krivsky is handling Bailey, you'd think he was given inside info from the Pope that Homer's going to turn out to be Walter Johnson, but only if you follow these very specific instructions.

I don't disagree that experience is what he needs, but I also don't think he needs the low pressure situation. He seems very comfortable in whatever role he's been in. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy to implode under pressure.

cincy09
03-16-2007, 11:44 AM
More from TRent:


Wayne on Homer: "It’s a situation where he needs to get his innings to start getting ready for the season."

Wayne on Meadows and Ligtenberg: "We just felt there were other people in front of them and we figured we’d do it now instead of later to be fair to them. They’ve been around and we respect their status."

Jerry Narron on Votto: "These other guys like Joey Votto had a very, very good spring. They got experience and got in a lot of games. He made some nice plays defensively, so he did some things other than just his bat. After watching him, I’m not surprised with what he did in AA last year. He’s got a chance to hit."

westofyou
03-16-2007, 11:45 AM
I agree that some fans have been treating him as the Second Coming, but they're only following the lead of the front office. They way Krivsky is handling Bailey, you'd think he was given inside info from the Pope that Homer's going to turn out to be Walter Johnson, but only if you follow these very specific instructions.

I don't disagree that experience is what he needs, but I also don't think he needs the low pressure situation. He seems very comfortable in whatever role he's been in. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy to implode under pressure.

The Reds should be more afraid he'll turn into Edwin Jackson instead of Dwight Gooden, a demotion tells me they don't think that he's ready to 'pitch" in the Bigs. That probably has nothing to do with his stuff and more to do with his game.

westofyou
03-16-2007, 11:48 AM
After watching him, I’m not surprised with what he did in AA last year. He’s got a chance to hit."

Votta leads the team in ST Walks... 8, Bellhorn/Hamilton/Hatteberg are next with 5

Dunn has 1, Phillips and Gonzalez have Zero --- Looks like they're getting their swings in.

Roy Tucker
03-16-2007, 11:50 AM
I agree that some fans have been treating him as the Second Coming, but they're only following the lead of the front office. They way Krivsky is handling Bailey, you'd think he was given inside info from the Pope that Homer's going to turn out to be Walter Johnson, but only if you follow these very specific instructions.

I don't disagree that experience is what he needs, but I also don't think he needs the low pressure situation. He seems very comfortable in whatever role he's been in. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy to implode under pressure.

All very valid points. His makeup seems rock-solid.

My fear is this. Homer is not a sure thing. I'm afraid that we (and I include myself in this group) think he is guaranteed for success. He's not. There are a million and one ways to screw up a young pitcher and the Reds' track record documents each and every of those million and one use cases.

He can blow out his arm. He can get hit on the toe with a line drive. He can get lit up like a Christmas tree in 3-4 starts and get Reithed. He can sneeze and sprain his eyelid. The Reds can still screw him up. Let's take a tried-and-true way of easing him in. Don't take chances, don't throw him to the wolves, and always always always let the long term success override any short term need.

M2
03-16-2007, 11:51 AM
I'd like to see Homer get another full year in the minors before the Reds figure out whether to use him as a starter or a reliever. He's still neon green and I figure he'll have his hands full in the upper minors. In fact, I'd start him in AA just to ease him into the season. If he goes on a tear you can always promote him, but he's having location problems at the moment and that could lead to some serious spankings in AAA. Fortunately, the Reds seem to understand the need for caution with him.

Votto's certainly done everything right this spring. Given the age and track records of the Reds' 1B combo, he'll likely have a whale of an opportunity to waltz into a full-time gig this summer.

Johnny Footstool
03-16-2007, 11:51 AM
If that's the plan, why not leave him with the big club now? His stuff is superior to anyone currently in the pen.

It's not the plan, at least not this season.

IamWallaman
03-16-2007, 11:58 AM
I realize is wasn't to be... but I REALLY wanted to see Votto make the club. He demonstrated superb plate discipline (8 BB... one short of the lead with 1/2 the chances of anyone else) and was involved in a number of comeback surges this Spring. He'll be an All-Star some day.

At least we have him just down the road a bit in AAA.

berryluther
03-16-2007, 12:03 PM
Jerry Narron on Votto: "These other guys like Joey Votto had a very, very good spring. They got experience and got in a lot of games. He made some nice plays defensively, so he did some things other than just his bat. After watching him, Im not surprised with what he did in AA last year. Hes got a chance to hit."

Meaning: If Votto was 35 yrs old he would have won the starting job.

CINCYREDS#1
03-16-2007, 12:05 PM
homer is not ready for the majors

M2
03-16-2007, 12:20 PM
I realize is wasn't to be... but I REALLY wanted to see Votto make the club. He demonstrated superb plate discipline (8 BB... one short of the lead with 1/2 the chances of anyone else) and was involved in a number of comeback surges this Spring. He'll be an All-Star some day.

At least we have him just down the road a bit in AAA.

It's been a good spring for a lot of young hitters. Josh Hamilton, Lastings Milledge, Billy Butler, Alex Gordon, Hunter Pence, Ryan Braun, Howie Kendrick, James Loney and Yuniel Escobar have all been tearing it up. Cameron Maybin and Andrew McCutcheon have looked good too.

Chip R
03-16-2007, 01:30 PM
Just my opinion, but I'd like to see Homer make his first appearance in relief in a blow-out game on the road like the Astros did with Oswalt.

Not so much to groom him as a reliever, but just to get that first MLB appearance out of the way without an undue amount of pressure. Us Reds fans are treating Bailey as the Second Coming and I'm afraid if he made a home start, the pressure to succeed would be enormous and the impact of a failure disproportionately too much. Let him relieve in 3-4 games while ratcheting up the importance of the appearance and then let him have a start. Ease the boy in.

I looked it up and that 2001 season with Oswalt he went 14-3 with 20 starts in 28 games. That's a nice blend and I'd be very happy with that.


I agree but then the Reds lose that 35-40K gate they would get when they announce that Homer was going to start his first major league game.

KronoRed
03-16-2007, 01:59 PM
Meaning: If Votto was 35 yrs old he would have won the starting job.

Wonderful. :angry:

I agree with all of these moves except Votto, like others have said I wanted him to get more PT, but I guess he never had a chance at making the team so they sent him down early.

IamWallaman
03-16-2007, 02:36 PM
It's been a good spring for a lot of young hitters. Josh Hamilton, Lastings Milledge, Billy Butler, Alex Gordon, Hunter Pence, Ryan Braun, Howie Kendrick, James Loney and Yuniel Escobar have all been tearing it up. Cameron Maybin and Andrew McCutcheon have looked good too.

I'm going to enjoy seeing how our guys compare in a couple years.

Caveat Emperor
03-16-2007, 02:52 PM
I agree with all of these moves except Votto, like others have said I wanted him to get more PT, but I guess he never had a chance at making the team so they sent him down early.

When in doubt, bet the guy making guaranteed money.

Chip R
03-16-2007, 02:55 PM
Meaning: If Votto was 35 yrs old he would have won the starting job.


He should have told Jerry he was 35 in Canadian years.

redsmetz
03-16-2007, 02:59 PM
RE: Votto


He should have told Jerry he was 35 in Canadian years.

:laugh:

dougdirt
03-16-2007, 03:38 PM
The Reds should be more afraid he'll turn into Edwin Jackson instead of Dwight Gooden, a demotion tells me they don't think that he's ready to 'pitch" in the Bigs. That probably has nothing to do with his stuff and more to do with his game.

I think you hit the keyword with 'pitch'. I really think AAA will be a learning experience for Homer. Unlike in AAA, he probably wont be able to blow everyone away with his fastball. He is going to have to locate both his change up and curve, and mix them in well with his fastball to get the more professional type hitters out there.

Degenerate39
03-16-2007, 04:35 PM
Will Votto be starting in Triple A?

dougdirt
03-16-2007, 06:08 PM
Will Votto be starting in Triple A?

Yes.

RedEye
03-16-2007, 06:20 PM
Bailey, from what I've heard from him this spring, knows he's going to struggle at times, and he's ok with that. He's going to use that experience to get better. He's not crushed by pitching poorly, and that's important. Most pitchers can't handle that and it ends up breaking them. Bailey has a good head on his shoulders and I think if you start him in the rotation, it does him better than starting him intially in the bullpen.

I'd like to agree with you, but I find it hard to put so much faith in "what I've heard" this spring. All of my information has come from this forum and its innumerable resources. Yes, that's the best I can do as a Reds fan, but I don't pretend to know what is really going on inside Bailey's head. Let's be realistic.

All we know about Bailey is what "public Bailey" has presented to the media: What he's said literally and what he's implied in doing so. It's fair to say, though, that Bailey, as a top pitching prospect for several years now, knows what to say and how to say it. He knows how to seem like he's got a good head on his shoulders. Whether or not that is actually the case, I think, is very difficult to ascertain from media coverage alone.

IMO, it's dangerous to pretend we know these players or what types of heads they have on their shoulders. Some of the most ridiculous opinions about The Trade came down just because people had "heard" that Kearns was a slacker or FeLo was undisciplined. These rumors about personality ballooned into dogma for people defending Krivsky's crazy move, dogma that unfortunately had very little verifiable basis in fact.

Let's stick to what we know about Bailey for now: he's a young, talented pitcher who throws up to 98 and has a wicked 12-to-6 curve with an emerging change-up. Anything beyond that, IMO, is very difficult to project--especially how this young man will adapt emotionally and socially to the big league game.

vaticanplum
03-16-2007, 07:30 PM
I just want to say how much I like this board. If you read through this thread, this is just a straightforward and informative thread, pretty well-written, very enjoyable. If I weren't a Reds fan I would be twice as knowledgeable about this team after reading this thread alone than before.

Ok. carry on.

Chip R
03-16-2007, 07:33 PM
I just want to say how much I like this board. If you read through this thread, this is just a straightforward and informative thread, pretty well-written, very enjoyable. If I weren't a Reds fan I would be twice as knowledgeable about this team after reading this thread alone than before.

Ok. carry on.


Kiss up. :mooner:

Red White
03-16-2007, 07:40 PM
The (possible, depending on your point of view) drawback that I see in pitching Bailey in middle relief in the bigs is that it starts the clock running on his service time toward arbitration and free agency. A cost-conscious club like the Reds wants to get as many of his best and most productive years as a full-time starter as it can.

Assuming he becomes what we all hope he will be, the Reds may not be sure that they can hang on to him once he has options.