PDA

View Full Version : Hey brother, can you spare a catcher?



M2
03-16-2007, 12:03 PM
I know it's still the first half of the spring training schedule, but Javier Valentin and Dave Ross have seemingly left their glass slippers at the 2005 and 2006 royal balls.

It does not bode well for the team, which has to expect poor production from SS as well. I don't know that the Reds can afford to have two sink holes in the lineup.

So, here's my question, what's Plan B? What do the Reds do about the catching situation if Valentin and Ross fall apart?

Tornon
03-16-2007, 12:05 PM
Don't forget we have a backup plan.. Moeller :rolleyes:

westofyou
03-16-2007, 12:06 PM
I know it's still the first half of the spring training schedule, but Javier Valentin and Dave Ross have seemingly left their glass slippers at the 2005 and 2006 royal balls.

It does not bode well for the team, which has to expect poor production from SS as well. I don't know that the Reds can afford to have two sink holes in the lineup.

So, here's my question, what's Plan B? What do the Reds do about the catching situation if Valentin and Ross fall apart?


Hey Chad Moeller .333/.400/.444 is still here!!

On that note I had Moeller in a NL only league in 2002 .286/.385 /.467

Doubt that happens again.

Shaggy Sanchez
03-16-2007, 12:07 PM
Well Chad Moeller is going to save us of course. I really think we should have kept Larue around. It isn't like we really went out and used the money saved from his contract.

Always Red
03-16-2007, 12:07 PM
good question, M2.

What are they going to do with Moeller? He has a guaranteed contract, doesn't he? Can he be optioned?

I think the duo's hitting will come around, at least a little. I'm more worried about their lack of catching prowess. LaRue got a lot of flack around here, most of which he brought on himself by his petulance, but the guy was a better catcher than Valentin or Ross.

REDREAD
03-16-2007, 12:09 PM
That's why I was milling over picking up Javy Lopez.

Of course, I would've prefered to keep Larue and trade one of Ross/Valentine.

I know Larue would've had a bad attitude (and it is justified, IMO), but if you somehow could convince him that it's open competition again and he can win his job back..

It made no sense to pay the Royals all that cash to take Larue. Another bad move by Wayne which is overlooked. IIRC, we paid around 3 million to KC, right? Couple that with Stanton and Conine's money and you've got about 7-8 million, which is enough to buy a player that would've actually made a difference.

Heck, worse case, you just use Larue as they plan to use Conine.

westofyou
03-16-2007, 12:12 PM
LaRue and Buck are hitting like Roy Hobbs

.333/.368/.944 LaRue

.267/.421/.667 Buck

Tom Servo
03-16-2007, 12:12 PM
Wasn't Benito Santiago looking to get back into the league earlier in the offseason? Jim Leyritz was too. Charles Johnson could probably be brought out of retirement. And Javy Lopez is available. These seem like some Reds-like choices. :evil:

westofyou
03-16-2007, 12:12 PM
Javy Lopez is a retired DH who owns catcher gear

Red Leader
03-16-2007, 12:22 PM
First, I would absolutely hate the decision if they decided to go with three catchers again.

1A. Moeller should be cut, and I'm hoping that happens soon.

Second, it's early. I don't think we'll get the same production out of Ross or Valentin that we have in the past but I think the Reds will go to their grave with those two. I don't think there is a "backup plan." The backup plan for Ross is Valentin, and the backup plan for Valentin is Ross.

M2
03-16-2007, 12:31 PM
First, I would absolutely hate the decision if they decided to go with three catchers again.

1A. Moeller should be cut, and I'm hoping that happens soon.

Second, it's early. I don't think we'll get the same production out of Ross or Valentin that we have in the past but I think the Reds will go to their grave with those two. I don't think there is a "backup plan." The backup plan for Ross is Valentin, and the backup plan for Valentin is Ross.

I've always assumed Valentin and Ross would turn into a platoon. Yet they don't even look capable of doing that successfully at the moment.

I figure if that happens then it probably triggers another journeyman hunt. Knowing Krivsky's M.O., I figure that will be for a glove guy. Where's Henry Blanco these days?

Johnny Footstool
03-16-2007, 01:32 PM
Javy Lopez is a retired DH who owns catcher gear

Lopez's receiving skills make Mike Piazza look like Tony Pena behind the plate.

flyer85
03-16-2007, 01:33 PM
I don't think the Reds have any other options, they will sink or swim with the Valentin/Ross combo.

Red Leader
03-16-2007, 01:35 PM
I don't think the Reds have any other options, they will sink or swim with the Valentin/Ross combo.

I agree. If the Reds are in the pennant race in late July and both Valentin and Ross are total sinkholes to the offense, I could maybe see a move made.

I just hope Wayne doesn't give up Cueto for Pierzynski to make that move.

Always Red
03-16-2007, 01:41 PM
I just hope Wayne doesn't give up Cueto for Pierzynski to make that move.

I hope not either, but Pierzynski would instantly become a good whipping boy around these parts!

KronoRed
03-16-2007, 01:57 PM
The obvious course of action is to carry 4 catchers

Put them together and you'll get decent numbers

;)

RANDY IN INDY
03-16-2007, 02:28 PM
It's spring training and naturally, "The sky is falling.";)

kaldaniels
03-16-2007, 02:41 PM
I think it is way to early to be negative about the catching situation. Simple as that. If you think Ross was an abberation last year that is one thing, if you think his line from this spring means the sky is falling, get a grip.

Caveat Emperor
03-16-2007, 03:07 PM
I think it is way to early to be negative about the catching situation. Simple as that. If you think Ross was an abberation last year that is one thing, if you think his line from this spring means the sky is falling, get a grip.

If you think last year was an aberration for Ross, you probably have good reason to have been negative about the catching situation for quite some time now.

M2
03-16-2007, 03:08 PM
I think it is way to early to be negative about the catching situation. Simple as that. If you think Ross was an abberation last year that is one thing, if you think his line from this spring means the sky is falling, get a grip.

I had my reservations about this pairing before the season. So, while I agree that putting credence in ST numbers is something to be avoided, what bugs me is these guys have shown up looking every bit as bad as I suspected they could be.

Likely there will be catchers moving around during the next three weeks (not frontline guys, but guys like Ross last year can be had). To a degree this becomes a matter of faith. Do you believe Valentin/Ross will get their acts together over the next few weeks or flip the switch when the games start to count?

Or should the franchise look to hedge that bet?

PuffyPig
03-16-2007, 03:36 PM
Well Chad Moeller is going to save us of course. I really think we should have kept Larue around. It isn't like we really went out and used the money saved from his contract.

I don't believe that any team can really afford to have 3 vertern options at any position, in case the first 2 fail.

If Ross and Valentin fail we will be in trouble.

Of course, last year if we said what will we do if Larue and Valentin fail , no one would have guessed Ross.

LoganBuck
03-16-2007, 04:01 PM
The Reds may have a bullpen arm or two that need to be flipped to get down to the 25 man roster. Perhaps a log jammed catcher with options can be brought in?

Red Leader
03-16-2007, 04:20 PM
The Reds may have a bullpen arm or two that need to be flipped to get down to the 25 man roster. Perhaps a log jammed catcher with options can be brought in?

Or maybe a Denorfia and Valentin for Kelly Shoppach + minor leaguer trade?

That'd seem to make some sense. If you're not going to give Denorfia a chance at the MLB level, shop him and get something for him. I don't know how much sense that makes for Cleveland. They have a glut of 1B/OF/DH types, IIRC. That exact deal may not work for them, but that's kind of what jumped out in my head.

The LLAAA Angels are another team that always seems to have a lot of catchers in the system. They might have some needs that meet our surplus.

TC81190
03-16-2007, 04:55 PM
How much do you think Kurt Suzuki from the A's would cost us? Denorfia and someone else? Maybe a Denorfia and Brad Salmon combo?

Or if that wouldn't fly, the same for Shoppach?

Roy Tucker
03-16-2007, 04:59 PM
Larue's house is still for sale. A new catcher could get a deal.

M2
03-16-2007, 05:08 PM
How much do you think Kurt Suzuki from the A's would cost us? Denorfia and someone else? Maybe a Denorfia and Brad Salmon combo?

Or if that wouldn't fly, the same for Shoppach?

I don't think Suzuki's available. He's still a highly regarded prospect. Shoppach's an ex-prospect, the sort of fellow a team might move for a modest return.

LB, I like the idea of using some veteran bullpen excess as the bait.

RL, Jeff Mathis is lurking over in the Angels system. I've always had a thing for him. He's got the catching skills. His offensive game seems to jump between good and awful. When he's right, he's just about everything you'd want behind the plate. Then he goes to hell with the stick and you wonder how he could possibly inhabit the same body as the guy who looked so good.

On the upside, he turns 24 at the end of the month, so perhaps what's happened is he's been rushed a bit.

mth123
03-16-2007, 05:16 PM
I don't think Suzuki's available. He's still a highly regarded prospect. Shoppach's an ex-prospect, the sort of fellow a team might move for a modest return.

LB, I like the idea of using some veteran bullpen excess as the bait.

RL, Jeff Mathis is lurking over in the Angels system. I've always had a thing for him. He's got the catching skills. His offensive game seems to jump between good and awful. When he's right, he's just about everything you'd want behind the plate. Then he goes to hell with the stick and you wonder how he could possibly inhabit the same body as the guy who looked so good.

On the upside, he turns 24 at the end of the month, so perhaps what's happened is he's been rushed a bit.

As we've discussed before, Mathis would be a good pick-up. Angels need a lefty in the pen. I wonder what else the Reds would need to give. If the Matthews thing blows-up they may have interest in a CF option which I would expect a decent return for (IE Mathis). Its a longshot though and the Angels have a few of their own young options for CF.

Reds may be more likely to get Jose Molina for one of the suspect lefties the Reds have to offer. The Angels could pair Mathis with Napoli. Not sure that really helps much. (It doesn't IMO.)

Tom Servo
03-16-2007, 05:23 PM
If the A's have a highly regarded catching prospect in Suzuki and already have Kendall and Melhuse (and Piazza) for this year, what about Jeremy Brown? Are the A's still high on him? They also have a pretty good hitting catcher in AAA named John Baker.

Will M
03-16-2007, 05:40 PM
if it is May 1rst or May 15th and our catchers are hitting .194 then i'll get concerned. i am not going to get upset about poor spring stats nor get too excited about good spring stats

mth123
03-16-2007, 05:52 PM
If the A's have a highly regarded catching prospect in Suzuki and already have Kendall and Melhuse (and Piazza) for this year, what about Jeremy Brown? Are the A's still high on him? They also have a pretty good hitting catcher in AAA named John Baker.

The A's are interesting because the Reds and A's still owe each other PTBNLs from the Saarloos deal.

Brown is 27 this season and went .255/.317/.444 at AAA in 2006 and he was never considered a good defender IIRC but was once considered a decent hitting prospect for a Catcher. He's right-handed and OB challenged.

Baker is 26 this year and went .273/.361/.386 in AAA in 2006. He's a LH Hitter which is valuable. I don't know about his defense at all and he seems to have no power.

Neither are considered in the A's top 30 prospects.

They also have some younger guys like Landon Powell (the A's number 20 per Baseball America and ready for AA in 2007). He a Switch-Hitter and is 25 in 2007. Also Anthony Recker is 23 and RH. He should be in High A this year and is considered the A's 23rd best prospect by Baseball America.

I'd only be happy with any of those as long as the Reds only give up similar talent at an area of excess. (Bubba???) Only Brown or Baker could be useful in 2007 if Ross and Javy tank. And the usefulness is probably pretty suspect.

My guess is that they consider Moeller all they need.

REDREAD
03-16-2007, 06:44 PM
Javy Lopez is a retired DH who owns catcher gear

But he's cheap and it's not like Ross and Valentine are gold glove catchers either. Was thinking more of him as a plan B if Ross explodes or as a pinch hitter for Ross when we fall behind.. Then Javy could stay in and catch the last few innings.

Wasn't saying it was a great idea (see the Reds live thread).. Just something to think about.

Tom Servo
03-16-2007, 06:49 PM
The problem with Lopez is that he wants to be the #1 catcher and not a bench player. I don't see how it could work out with him and the Reds.

TheBigLebowski
03-16-2007, 06:59 PM
The obvious answer is former Cubs stalwart Hector Villanueva.

http://cubnation.mlblogs.com/hector.jpg

Here he is, calmly holding his considerable arms in the air....as if to say "Worry not, Reds fans. It's going to be okay."

mth123
03-16-2007, 07:02 PM
Another option might be Tampa Bay. They still owe the Reds a player for Brendan Harris and it looks like it won't be Hamilton as many (including me) had been speculating. They have Dioner Navarro and Josh Paul in the big leagues. Shawn Riggans is 26, RH, went .293/.341/.444 at Durham in 2006. He got a cup of coffee in TB last year and could be a guy to keep in reserve at AAA. He's TB's number 16 prospect and is blocked by Navarro. Since TB's top 11 guys are in the top 150 or so overall, he might be a top 10 guy in Cincinnati's system.

westofyou
03-16-2007, 07:08 PM
But he's cheap and it's not like Ross and Valentine are gold glove catchers either.

He's crap and he's old, why even bother?

Just because of his name is the only reason he's even mentioned, if he was Rod Barjas no one would give him the time of day.

Chip R
03-16-2007, 07:10 PM
The obvious answer is former Cubs stalwart Hector Villanueva.

http://cubnation.mlblogs.com/hector.jpg

Here he is, calmly holding his considerable arms in the air....as if to say "Worry not, Reds fans. It's going to be okay."


You're really Paul White from Sports Weekly, aren't you? ;)

The problem I see with acquiring another catcher is that you're going to have 3 catchers again unless you can foist Javy or Ross off on someone. And if neither of them are hitting, you aren't going to have many takers. And you just know no matter how poorly Ross or Javy are hitting, Narron would sooner cut off his right arm before he played some kid straight up from the minors at catcher.

Jpup
03-16-2007, 07:41 PM
Greg Zaun lives in Cincinnati and tried to talk Wayne into signing him in the offseason, the Reds apparently had no interest in giving him a job. He re-signed with Toronto for 2 years/7.25 million. He's 35. I certainly wouldn't pay him that kind of cash, but he did have a good year last season. I'm not sure I wouldn't rather have him than Valentin if the money was the same.

Zaun

2006 .272/.363/.462
Career .253/.345/.385

As far as worrying about Ross, I think he will be fine. It's way too early to worry about his hitting IMO. I would be calling Atlanta about one of their young catchers if I were the Reds front office.


LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. -- Top catching prospect Jarrod Saltalamacchia was one of six players the Braves sent down to the Minors after Monday's 3-1 loss to the Cardinals in Jupiter.

Saltalamacchia, who doubled in his only at-bat during Monday's loss, was reassigned to Double-A Mississippi. The 21-year-old switch-hitting catcher has registered three hits in eight Grapefruit League at-bats.

Chip R
03-16-2007, 07:43 PM
From what I've heard, Zaun makes A.J. Pierzinski look like Sean Casey. But he re-signed with TOR so it's moot.

Falls City Beer
03-16-2007, 09:37 PM
I don't think the Reds have any other options, they will sink or swim with the Valentin/Ross combo.

Yep. Ross should be decent (on offense), but Valentin could and likely will be post-nuclear.

texasdave
03-17-2007, 12:03 PM
Javier Valentin has some weird splits as a Red. Pre-AS his OPS is .619. Post-AS his OPS is .959. His swing is so violent maybe it takes him longer to get his timing down. Or maybe he is going so badly he has hit bats blessed during the All-Star break. Who knows.

LoganBuck
03-17-2007, 05:29 PM
Another option might be Tampa Bay. They still owe the Reds a player for Brendan Harris and it looks like it won't be Hamilton as many (including me) had been speculating. They have Dioner Navarro and Josh Paul in the big leagues. Shawn Riggans is 26, RH, went .293/.341/.444 at Durham in 2006. He got a cup of coffee in TB last year and could be a guy to keep in reserve at AAA. He's TB's number 16 prospect and is blocked by Navarro. Since TB's top 11 guys are in the top 150 or so overall, he might be a top 10 guy in Cincinnati's system.

I hadn't been thinking about Tampa like that but now that Hamilton looks like he is going to stick on merit, you are so right. They may be someone to target, but it may take a Coutlangus instead of a Cormier.

redsmetz
03-17-2007, 05:39 PM
Another option might be Tampa Bay. They still owe the Reds a player for Brendan Harris and it looks like it won't be Hamilton as many (including me) had been speculating. They have Dioner Navarro and Josh Paul in the big leagues. Shawn Riggans is 26, RH, went .293/.341/.444 at Durham in 2006. He got a cup of coffee in TB last year and could be a guy to keep in reserve at AAA. He's TB's number 16 prospect and is blocked by Navarro. Since TB's top 11 guys are in the top 150 or so overall, he might be a top 10 guy in Cincinnati's system.

I'm not certain, but I think PTBNL have to switch leagues, so I don't think we could have a player go from their International League team to our International League team. Somebody correct me if that's wrong. We could take someone from the PCL to IL or a Single or Double A teams go to AAA, etc.

Tony Cloninger
03-17-2007, 11:26 PM
Not that i would not mind having a catcher who could play defense and hit.....but i would rather have a C who can play very good defense and whatever he hits is gravy. Ross and Valentin are not great defensive catchers....so If Moeller is better defensively, i would rather have him.

If they can get a better defensive/catcher in a trade...great but why worry about someone who is going to be hitting 8th and his main reason for being is his defense? This position, along with SS, no matter how much the game has changed to a more offensive oriented game......is still a defense first type position.

mth123
03-17-2007, 11:41 PM
Not that i would not mind having a catcher who could play defense and hit.....but i would rather have a C who can play very good defense and whatever he hits is gravy. Ross and Valentin are not great defensive catchers....so If Moeller is better defensively, i would rather have him.

If they can get a better defensive/catcher in a trade...great but why worry about someone who is going to be hitting 8th and his main reason for being is his defense? This position, along with SS, no matter how much the game has changed to a more offensive oriented game......is still a defense first type position.


Unfortunately, for that to work the team needs a 1B who is a top run producer to make-up the difference. If the Reds are going to go with Hatte and Conine making a "judy hitting" spot out of a place where most teams have a big time run producer, then the team has to get some offense from the traditionally defensive spots.

I'm excited about Hamilton and I think Votto could be an answer when he is finally given a shot, but for now, the team has 3 sluggers in Dunn, Griffey and EdE. In this day and age, that is at least one slugger short. Right now the Ross/Javy duo is the best chance to get slugging from a 4th spot in the line-up. Unless Hamilton provides it, the offense is sunk without it.

I think the concerns about Ross and Javy are valid. On this team some offense from the Catcher spot isn't "gravy." Its an essential part of the teams Bread and Butter.

KySteveH
03-19-2007, 01:02 AM
Wasn't Benito Santiago looking to get back into the league earlier in the offseason? Jim Leyritz was too. Charles Johnson could probably be brought out of retirement. And Javy Lopez is available. These seem like some Reds-like choices. :evil:

Steve Christmas is available, but I'd look at Dave Van Gorder or Alan Knicely first. Especially Knicely, because he's versatile enough to play 1B or the OF.

KySteveH
03-19-2007, 01:21 AM
good question, M2.

What are they going to do with Moeller? He has a guaranteed contract, doesn't he? Can he be optioned?

I think the duo's hitting will come around, at least a little. I'm more worried about their lack of catching prowess. LaRue got a lot of flack around here, most of which he brought on himself by his petulance, but the guy was a better catcher than Valentin or Ross.

Moeller is an NRI with 5+ years service, so he can refuse assignment to the minors during the first 45 days. Unless of course he waived that right...