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View Full Version : Bullpen is gonna be pretty good



icehole3
03-17-2007, 08:24 PM
Hermanson, Coffey, Weathers, Stanton and the youngster Bray. I like the veteran presence, the fact that they get in there and they get guys out.

Degenerate39
03-17-2007, 08:31 PM
It will be an improvement from the pen last year but I'm still not liking it.

jmcclain19
03-17-2007, 08:32 PM
If the Reds are counting on 180-200IP combined from Hermanson, Stanton & Cormier - it's going to be a long, long season.

RedEye
03-17-2007, 08:32 PM
Still no real stoppers in there. Bray and Coffey have potential, but that's about it. Veteran moxie only gets you so far.

flyer85
03-17-2007, 08:45 PM
seeing as Hermanson, Weathers and Stanton are likely to suck ... I hope the Reds are hedging their bet with Burton and others.

Falls City Beer
03-17-2007, 09:14 PM
If Hamilton's the real thing, then all of a sudden it's no longer the offense that's the team's Achilles' heel, it's the bullpen, by a mile.

jojo
03-17-2007, 09:18 PM
Hermanson, Coffey, Weathers, Stanton and the youngster Bray. I like the veteran presence, the fact that they get in there and they get guys out.


I'll take Bray and Coffee....you can have the rest...

jesusfan
03-17-2007, 09:18 PM
Don't leave out Burton and Salmon... I think they could make an immediate impact...

edabbs44
03-17-2007, 09:19 PM
Hermanson, Coffey, Weathers, Stanton and the youngster Bray. I like the veteran presence, the fact that they get in there and they get guys out.

Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree here. Dustin will be lucky to make this team. Weathers and Stanton are nothing to get excited about and Bray's shoulder is bothering him.

This bullpen has the potential to be a little better than last year's at a higher price.

OnBaseMachine
03-17-2007, 09:19 PM
1.) Todd Coffey, Bill Bray, Jared Burton, Brad Salmon, David Weathers, Matt Belisle/Kirk Saarloos, and Mike Stanton is a decent bullpen.

2.) Todd Coffey, Bill Bray, Rheal Cormier, Dustin Hermanson, David Weathers, Mike Stanton, and Gary Majewski is a bad bullpen.

Let's hope Krivsky/Narron choose the first option.

edabbs44
03-17-2007, 09:20 PM
Don't leave out Burton and Salmon... I think they could make an immediate impact...

There's not enough room for everyone.

Falls City Beer
03-17-2007, 09:20 PM
Don't leave out Burton and Salmon... I think they could make an immediate impact...

I'll wager one of them doesn't contribute anything meaningful. If I had to guess: Salmon.

And while Burton is interesting, he's the very definition of unproven.

Really there's one (1) lock to perform out of the bullpen this year--Coffey. That's it. We know he can retire MLB hitters. The rest is all speculation.

jesusfan
03-17-2007, 09:26 PM
I guess we'll see...

jojo
03-17-2007, 09:27 PM
Really there's one (1) lock to perform out of the bullpen this year--Coffey. That's it. We know he can retire MLB hitters. The rest is all speculation.

Yes and that's pretty scary.

Falls City Beer
03-17-2007, 09:28 PM
I guess we'll see...

True. A surprise is in no way out of the question; someone always seems to emerge. It's how well that pitcher emerges that's going to matter. If a guy comes out of nowhere to contribute league average, probably won't matter much; if a guy erupts like a Scott Williamson, well, then things could get interesting.

dougdirt
03-17-2007, 09:29 PM
I'll wager one of them doesn't contribute anything meaningful. If I had to guess: Salmon.

And while Burton is interesting, he's the very definition of unproven.

Really there's one (1) lock to perform out of the bullpen this year--Coffey. That's it. We know he can retire MLB hitters. The rest is all speculation.

I would take young and hard throwing unproven over old soft tossing proven he can get hit a lot (Cormier).

Falls City Beer
03-17-2007, 09:30 PM
I would take young and hard throwing unproven over old soft tossing proven he can get hit a lot (Cormier).

So would I. I don't think I intimated otherwise.

jesusfan
03-17-2007, 09:32 PM
I just don't see the point in having Cormier in the pen when we already have Stanton and Bray as the lefties... I realize Narron thinks Cormier can be used to get right and left handed hitters out but I don't buy that... Hermanson has looked great this spring in the limited action he has seen, but if it's true that he's only hitting 85-87 with his fastball then he's out of the picture too...

flyer85
03-17-2007, 09:33 PM
WK talked the other day about how in ST it isn't all about things like ERA, its about how you throw and about your stuff. If that is true there is really no way Hermanson makes the team. He couldn't break 85 with his fastball today against the BoSox. There is a reason all those teams passed on signing him after working him out. Plus with his bad back(which he did not get repaired) is always going to be iffy.

Team Clark
03-17-2007, 09:38 PM
I would take young and hard throwing unproven over old soft tossing proven he can get hit a lot (Cormier).

I was thinking the same thing. I'd make Burton the closer. Why not? Better stuff than Coffey/Weathers/Stanton. Fearless and the other teams would have no idea what to expect. With Hume back in the role that has helped many a Red bullpen become successful why not Burton?

savafan
03-17-2007, 09:48 PM
A healthy Majewski may be the best BP pitcher the Reds have. I'll never understand everyone's criticism of him due simply to the fact that he was injured last season.

guttle11
03-17-2007, 09:54 PM
I'd say "pretty not too bad" is more likely.

jojo
03-17-2007, 09:55 PM
A healthy Majewski may be the best BP pitcher the Reds have. I'll never understand everyone's criticism of him due simply to the fact that he was injured last season.

For his career, his K/9=5.3 and his K/BB=1.48 and that was before arm problems. Aside from groundball tendencies, he's pretty much not all that remarkable nor that difficult to find a similar version of....

flyer85
03-17-2007, 09:55 PM
A healthy Majewski may be the best BP pitcher the Reds have. I'll never understand everyone's criticism of him due simply to the fact that he was injured last season.he doesn't miss bats and he walks too many. The only thing saving him was a very low HR rate and a fortunate BABIP.

Stingray
03-17-2007, 10:29 PM
I was thinking the same thing. I'd make Burton the closer. Why not? Better stuff than Coffey/Weathers/Stanton. Fearless and the other teams would have no idea what to expect. With Hume back in the role that has helped many a Red bullpen become successful why not Burton?

I'd definitely keep Burton over one of Rheal Cormier, Dustin Hermanson, David Weathers, or Mike Stanton. I wouldn't start him out as closer though. I'd work him in slowly & carefully in low pressure situations. If he handles those I'd gradually increase his responsiblitiles.

I'd keep him on the roster all year even if I had to hide him among the 7 BP guys. He could be optioned next year if more seasoning is required, just don't abuse him like Reith was abused. The Reds can't afford to let a guy with his potential get away - especially to keep another end of the line veteran(three is one too many).

If they don't keep Burton only carry 11 pitchers!

KoryMac5
03-17-2007, 10:35 PM
I still continue to say a pen of Burton, Coffey, Salmon, and Bray will open up some eyes. Good live young arms is what this pen needs.

Stingray
03-17-2007, 10:39 PM
If they can keep Burton, that group would certainly look good in '08 or '09 beyond.

Betterread
03-17-2007, 10:40 PM
I still continue to say a pen of Burton, Coffey, Salmon, and Bray will open up some eyes. Good live young arms is what this pen needs.

I think its a good set of arms, however, they all have serious questions they need to answer. Salmon and Burton have great arms but inconsistent command. Coffey does not have a consistent second pitch and Bray has not yet performed well as a Red. By midseason, I hope some AA or AAA guys (Cueto, Pelland, Coutlangus, Medock) have separated from the pack and are making a claim for major league consideration.

pedro
03-17-2007, 10:42 PM
They're a lot more interesting than last years bunch.

LoganBuck
03-17-2007, 10:50 PM
Not that I believe everything Allen Cutler says, but today on WLW he was hinting that some surprise young BP arms will make the team at the expense of some older guys.

They have to at least see how Burton will do in April. If they return him after what he has shown so far I will puke.

M2
03-17-2007, 10:51 PM
There could be up to four pitchers in the Reds bullpen simultaneously pushing up daisies. It'll be interesting to see if the club bears with Weathers if he suffers another rocky start.

Coffey looks to be the best pitcher in the pen. Bray's health, or lack thereof, could be a major monkeywrench. We'll see about Salmon and Burton over the next two weeks. The competition is about to get a lot stiffer.

Can't say I'm wild about how this unit is shaping up at the moment.

mth123
03-17-2007, 10:54 PM
I'll wager one of them doesn't contribute anything meaningful. If I had to guess: Salmon.

And while Burton is interesting, he's the very definition of unproven.

Really there's one (1) lock to perform out of the bullpen this year--Coffey. That's it. We know he can retire MLB hitters. The rest is all speculation.

You right about Coffey being the only solid relief guy at this point. I also agree that whichever of the young guys get a shot, its not realistic to think they will all come through. That is why I have been saying all winter to dispense with the old retreads, pool those resources to get one reliable guy to go with Coffey and rotate the young guys through the other spots until you find a good one or two. For that to work the Reds need to give a number of young guys a shot sooner or later and Bray, Burton and Salmon are just the beginning of the line.

By the way, at the time I said the team would regret giving up Shafer and I still think he would be another young option for that mix and match plan. The guy they acquired looks a lot like Majewski except he's older, makes more money, K's even less, walks about the same number, has never really had any success close to Maj's level and gives up a ton more HR. As much as I dislike Maj right now, he's probably the 3rd best option behind Coffey and Bray if he's healthy at all. Believe me that says more about the rest of the pen than it is any endorement of Maj.

I think if Weathers, Stanton and Real Crummy eh? get 150 + innings this year, we could be looking at an historically bad bullpen unless the magic BABIP luck that Weathers and the Philly version of Crummy eh? had last year repeat themselves.

Dracodave
03-17-2007, 11:21 PM
I was thinking the same thing. I'd make Burton the closer. Why not? Better stuff than Coffey/Weathers/Stanton. Fearless and the other teams would have no idea what to expect. With Hume back in the role that has helped many a Red bullpen become successful why not Burton?

That makes too much sense?

Limit him to an area where his fearless, skill set and unpredectiablity (atleast this year for teams) benefiet the team?

Never..!

icehole3
03-18-2007, 10:30 AM
You guys base things to much on the numbers, "how hard this guys fastball is or lets make Burton the closer"....I go back to what Jeff Brantley who is one of the best evaluators of pitching in the game, he said, "You got pitchers and you've got throwers, when the games start for real guys who are pitchers will get guys out." Theyre a bunch of throwers out there who look impressive on the radar gun, I prefer guys who will out think a hitter and the hitter in the on-deck circle with good location and command and wont melt under pressure in Houston and St. Louis come August when the stadium is going nuts and we're in the thick of a pennant race, not some guy who's green and can throw 94 mph.

M2
03-18-2007, 11:01 AM
You guys base things to much on the numbers, "how hard this guys fastball is or lets make Burton the closer"....I go back to what Jeff Brantley who is one of the best evaluators of pitching in the game, he said, "You got pitchers and you've got throwers, when the games start for real guys who are pitchers will get guys out." Theyre a bunch of throwers out there who look impressive on the radar gun, I prefer guys who will out think a hitter and the hitter in the on-deck circle with good location and command and wont melt under pressure in Houston and St. Louis come August when the stadium is going nuts and we're in the thick of a pennant race, not some guy who's green and can throw 94 mph.

You base too much on hopeful assertion.

From 1959-2003 the Reds had perhaps the finest bullpen in baseball. Not coincidentally, it featured a lot guys who could chew up opposing hitters. We've seen it done right for a good long time.

So, while I'm all for "pitchers" in the bullpen, I'm also cognizant of the fact that relievers who allow too much contact get their heads kicked in more often than not. IIRC, you were a big fan of DanO's "Pitch To Contact" movement, I'd suggest learning a lesson from that. Add to that the unsettling notion that the Reds have four guys who are literally right at the end of their careers (Stanton, Cormier, Weathers and Hermanson) and it's a recipe for trouble. The team needs some young smoke throwers to step up and provide a different look for opposing hitters. If it doesn't happen then I don't have much hope this will be anything more than a generally poor bullpen.

Chip R
03-18-2007, 11:44 AM
At one time in their careers, Stanton and Mercker and Weathers and Hermanson and probably even Cormier were all hard throwers. Someone took a chance on them and they all had a certain degree of success as pitchers.

corkedbat
03-18-2007, 11:49 AM
I'll take Burton, Salmon, Coutlangus or even Shackleford over Hermanson and Cormier. Just say naw to geritol.

jojo
03-18-2007, 12:04 PM
You guys base things to much on the numbers, "how hard this guys fastball is or lets make Burton the closer"....I go back to what Jeff Brantley who is one of the best evaluators of pitching in the game, he said, "You got pitchers and you've got throwers, when the games start for real guys who are pitchers will get guys out." Theyre a bunch of throwers out there who look impressive on the radar gun, I prefer guys who will out think a hitter and the hitter in the on-deck circle with good location and command and wont melt under pressure in Houston and St. Louis come August when the stadium is going nuts and we're in the thick of a pennant race, not some guy who's green and can throw 94 mph.

Lets absolutely ignore numbers....in a high leverage situation (i.e. one which could determine the outcome of the game be it in the 4th, 6th or 9th inning), i'd wan't the guy on the mound to have these traits in this order of importance: an ability to throw strikes (maybe weight it 42%)>ability to make 'em miss (maybe weight this trait 38%)>> ability to induce groundballs (maybe weight this 20%)...

How many guys in the Reds projected bullpen have those traits and in the order?

Basically, the guy that has the best chance of getting outs is the one who can throw strikes that batters can't easily hit (i.e. eats the batter up) while making them kill worms with the ones they to get a bat on.

I'm not seeing a nasty Reds bullpen but rather a more benevolent one that will tend to rely upon its defense. It could be successful but it won't have a very high margin of error .....

icehole3
03-18-2007, 02:26 PM
Probably why they went out and got Gonzo to play SS. Chip I understand what youre saying brother they all threw hard at one point, I just hate to see them get rid of a tough guy in the bullpen and in july we're trying to trade for a reliever because this Burton guy I've never heard of before in my life (can someone please tell where this no name dude came from, just asking) Cormier on the other hand is an established guy who when we played the Phillies last year Im down at the stadium going damn their bullpen just went thru our lineup...piece of cake...wish we had some of those veteran guys. We go out and get some, now everyone wants hard throwing guys who walk a lot of guys and get lit up late in the game, I just slap my head and go O brother.

mth123
03-18-2007, 02:49 PM
Probably why they went out and got Gonzo to play SS. Chip I understand what youre saying brother they all threw hard at one point, I just hate to see them get rid of a tough guy in the bullpen and in july we're trying to trade for a reliever because this Burton guy I've never heard of before in my life (can someone please tell where this no name dude came from, just asking) Cormier on the other hand is an established guy who when we played the Phillies last year Im down at the stadium going damn their bullpen just went thru our lineup...piece of cake...wish we had some of those veteran guys. We go out and get some, now everyone wants hard throwing guys who walk a lot of guys and get lit up late in the game, I just slap my head and go O brother.

Cormier had a BABIP of .238 with Philly in 2006. Check his 2005. HIs 2006 Philly numbers were a fluke. He's basically had to fight for a roster spot for most of his career and usually has been a last guy on the roster type who gets the nod because he left-handed.

Its just now the Reds have guaranteed him $2.25 Million to do his questionable thing for them.

Chip R
03-18-2007, 03:07 PM
Probably why they went out and got Gonzo to play SS. Chip I understand what youre saying brother they all threw hard at one point, I just hate to see them get rid of a tough guy in the bullpen and in july we're trying to trade for a reliever because this Burton guy I've never heard of before in my life (can someone please tell where this no name dude came from, just asking) Cormier on the other hand is an established guy who when we played the Phillies last year Im down at the stadium going damn their bullpen just went thru our lineup...piece of cake...wish we had some of those veteran guys. We go out and get some, now everyone wants hard throwing guys who walk a lot of guys and get lit up late in the game, I just slap my head and go O brother.


Burton is a Rule 5 pickup from the A's. Just like Hamilton, he has to stay with the Reds the entire year or they have to offer him back to the A's.

icehole, the last three times the Reds won the World Series and in 1999, the Reds had a great bullpen and the guys who were being used at the end of the game were young guys. McEnaney, Eastwick, Dibble, Charlton, Sullivan, Graves, Williamson and even Myers - to an extent - were all younger guys.

I don't think it's a bad idea to have a couple of grizzled vets in there but to have a bullpen full of them over kids who throw the ball harder is not the best way to go. I saw StL last year use a rookie to close for them in the playoffs and the Series. I saw DET use young, hard throwing guys as setup men. They did use a crafty vet as a closer but he wouldn't have got the saves he did if it weren't for those young guys throwing 100 mph.

I don't want to see guys melt under pressure in StL and HOU either. But I recall Weathers giving up a walkoff HR to Pujols. So being a craft vet doesn't make you immune to losing games.

jojo
03-18-2007, 03:57 PM
Burton is a Rule 5 pickup from the A's. Just like Hamilton, he has to stay with the Reds the entire year or they have to offer him back to the A's.

icehole, the last three times the Reds won the World Series and in 1999, the Reds had a great bullpen and the guys who were being used at the end of the game were young guys. McEnaney, Eastwick, Dibble, Charlton, Sullivan, Graves, Williamson and even Myers - to an extent - were all younger guys.

I don't think it's a bad idea to have a couple of grizzled vets in there but to have a bullpen full of them over kids who throw the ball harder is not the best way to go. I saw StL last year use a rookie to close for them in the playoffs and the Series. I saw DET use young, hard throwing guys as setup men. They did use a crafty vet as a closer but he wouldn't have got the saves he did if it weren't for those young guys throwing 100 mph.

I don't want to see guys melt under pressure in StL and HOU either. But I recall Weathers giving up a walkoff HR to Pujols. So being a craft vet doesn't make you immune to losing games.


I'll take *stuff* over makeup everytime and twice over in the bullpen....

Tony Cloninger
03-18-2007, 03:58 PM
You just have to make sure you keep the right "grizzled veterans" that's all.

You never know what you are going to get from some of these guys....like PH specialist....they go up/down from year to year. I think Weathers and Stanton are fine enough as it is......but those other 2 LH better be on, if you trade RC, or else you will spend the rest of the year searching for one from every waiver wire and Triple AA roster.

icehole3
03-18-2007, 04:08 PM
Burton is a Rule 5 pickup from the A's. Just like Hamilton, he has to stay with the Reds the entire year or they have to offer him back to the A's.

icehole, the last three times the Reds won the World Series and in 1999, the Reds had a great bullpen and the guys who were being used at the end of the game were young guys. McEnaney, Eastwick, Dibble, Charlton, Sullivan, Graves, Williamson and even Myers - to an extent - were all younger guys.

I don't think it's a bad idea to have a couple of grizzled vets in there but to have a bullpen full of them over kids who throw the ball harder is not the best way to go. I saw StL last year use a rookie to close for them in the playoffs and the Series. I saw DET use young, hard throwing guys as setup men. They did use a crafty vet as a closer but he wouldn't have got the saves he did if it weren't for those young guys throwing 100 mph.

I don't want to see guys melt under pressure in StL and HOU either. But I recall Weathers giving up a walkoff HR to Pujols. So being a craft vet doesn't make you immune to losing games.

I think we are saying the same thing, my only thing was dont just bring a guy in because he throws hard. I now get that Burton has to be kept because of the rule 5. I guess he's going to make the team. M2, Im a fan Dan-O, he brought some good things to the Reds, not a fan of pitch to contact. Or the, what was it, take 2 strikes before you swing, something like that he did for one year. His keeping everyone on a short pitch count seemed to slow down the injuries to our young arms, that worked.