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View Full Version : Marty's quote on Josh Hamilton today 3/16/07



George Foster
03-17-2007, 11:52 PM
Marty after a play by Josh in center field: " There is no question about it. Josh Hamilton is by far the best defensive fielder on this team right now. He covers the most ground and has a rocket for an arm. There is no debate about it at this point."

Wow....:thumbup:

RedsManRick
03-18-2007, 12:52 AM
Stick Denorfia in left and I guess the comparison is made for you :-P

I don't have a horse in the race. I happy to see Hamilton playing so well. Just funny how the best defensive AAA OF gets shoved to LF for wonderboy.

WVRedsFan
03-18-2007, 01:16 AM
My take on this whole thing is this (and this and maybe a buck will get you a good cup of coffee if you don't go to Starbucks). For too long I've hared about this superstar Chris Denorfia. You know, the kid who is nearing his third decade without being in the majors. And I keep hearing wonderful things about this guy named Ryan Freel, who similarly didn't get to the majors until an older age. Both get props for hustle, but neither shines in all aspects of the game which is the measureing stick for outfielders, like it or not.

Enter Josh Hamilton, who seems to be reaching near his potential with a new outlook on life. I haven't seen Hamilton play except on a couple of TV games this spring, but the kid has it all. He hustles, runs well, fields so well that it amazes me and playes the game intelligently (at least when I've seen him play). He's a natural. He has power, speed, and a newly acquired attitude. Put Denorfia and Freel on any other major league club and Freel would be a utilkty man and Denorfia would probably not make the team, or if he did would be an afterthought. Let performance decide who plays, regardless of prejudices and favoritism. If he screws up, bench him or send him down, but don't sluff off his talent because of adoration of Freel and Denorfia.

toledodan
03-18-2007, 01:23 AM
My take on this whole thing is this (and this and maybe a buck will get you a good cup of coffee if you don't go to Starbucks). For too long I've hared about this superstar Chris Denorfia. You know, the kid who is nearing his third decade without being in the majors. And I keep hearing wonderful things about this guy named Ryan Freel, who similarly didn't get to the majors until an older age. Both get props for hustle, but neither shines in all aspects of the game which is the measureing stick for outfielders, like it or not.

Enter Josh Hamilton, who seems to be reaching near his potential with a new outlook on life. I haven't seen Hamilton play except on a couple of TV games this spring, but the kid has it all. He hustles, runs well, fields so well that it amazes me and playes the game intelligently (at least when I've seen him play). He's a natural. He has power, speed, and a newly acquired attitude. Put Denorfia and Freel on any other major league club and Freel would be a utilkty man and Denorfia would probably not make the team, or if he did would be an afterthought. Let performance decide who plays, regardless of prejudices and favoritism. If he screws up, bench him or send him down, but don't sluff off his talent because of adoration of Freel and Denorfia.



great post. i like deno but lets face it he didn't exactly tare the cover off the ball when he got his chance last season. maybe deno is more of a brandon larson type that is more of a AAAA status. too good for the minors not quite up to par in the majors. deno did help himself saturday with a solid game but hasn't proved he deserves a spot over hamilton yet.

MrCinatit
03-18-2007, 01:39 AM
Excellent post, WV.
I do like Freel and Deno a lot...I like their spark and I like their hustle.
However, not only does Hamilton seem to have the spark and the hustle, he seems to have the talent, as well - a many times rare combination.

GAC
03-18-2007, 06:57 AM
Excellent post, WV.
I do like Freel and Deno a lot...I like their spark and I like their hustle.
However, not only does Hamilton seem to have the spark and the hustle, he seems to have the talent, as well - a many times rare combination.

Have the talent - that's the key. He tried to throw it away with his destructive behavior, but most agree that he is the most talented of those mentioned above. The key, or question, is - "Will it finally shine forth?"

Lets find out. It's a low risk investment. The problem is not with Hamilton and/or Deno. The problem is with Jr in CF, who is keeping us from really finding out if these two guys have what it takes. They, IMHO, are not going to get the consistent A/Bs for us to find out because Narron is gonna be shuffling things between the three (incuding Freel).

And I don't advocate trading any of them at this stage, unless it's a deal that can't be refused.

jojo
03-18-2007, 08:46 AM
Lets find out. It's a low risk investment.

Here's an important distinction. Picking up Hamilton was a relatively low risk investment. Penciling him in for 400 at bats in centerfield is a high risk behavior.

edabbs44
03-18-2007, 09:08 AM
great post. i like deno but lets face it he didn't exactly tare the cover off the ball when he got his chance last season. maybe deno is more of a brandon larson type that is more of a AAAA status. too good for the minors not quite up to par in the majors. deno did help himself saturday with a solid game but hasn't proved he deserves a spot over hamilton yet.

His first "chance" was about 25 ABs. Check out what he did in September and Oct. .352/.407/.463. In a playoff race. Look at what some of the other stars did down the stretch:

Dunn: .157/.333/.265
Hatteberg: .206/.349/.235
Freel: .208/.311/.302
Phillips: .149/.204/.253

He should have a roster spot locked up in 2007, no questions asked. It's a joke that he doesn't, just because he has options. To even mention that Crosby could be kept over him shows that management isn't taking 2007 seriously.

And Hamilton has been a great story so far...but I'm not fully buying until the real games start. If he's smoking the ball through May, then I'll get on line.

And WV, if performance should matter for the roster decisions, then Deno should be locked in. How wouldn't he make it? Look at his numbers from last year when playing semi-consistently. You can have ST, I'll have regular season performance.

mth123
03-18-2007, 09:34 AM
Here's an important distinction. Picking up Hamilton was a relatively low risk investment. Penciling him in for 400 at bats in centerfield is a high risk behavior.

As stated earlier. Pencil him in until he stops hitting and then leave him in a little longer to see if he rebounds. If he does, the offense actually has a chance to be average in 2007. If he falls flat, move him to the 25th man role and give Deno a shot. I like Deno, but even if he does well, he can't elevate the offense. Hamilton has that potential.

A team with Deno/Freel in CF and playing well still doesn't look to have enough offense with a hole at SS, uncertainty at C, OBP questions at 2B and an absolute lack of slugging at 1B. A real plus player in CF can make-up for some of that. Its a real longshot right now, but with Votto sent to AAA to "work on his defense":rolleyes: its the only shot left.

Add in a team with 3 number 5 starters in the rotation and a bullpen that looks horrible, and this is a year to try some stuff out IMO.

Joseph
03-18-2007, 11:16 AM
Add in a team with 3 number 5 starters in the rotation and a bullpen that looks horrible, and this is a year to try some stuff out IMO.

Which I think many here agree with, which just furthers the point that Crosby and some of these old relievers have no spot on this team if they management [JN and WK] are thinking clearly.

If we're simply rolling dice on the year, let's roll them with youth. Nothing would be worse than a bunch of old guys coming in and doing half the job that the youngsters could have for 3 times the pay.

redsfan4445
03-18-2007, 11:22 AM
My take on this whole thing is this (and this and maybe a buck will get you a good cup of coffee if you don't go to Starbucks). For too long I've hared about this superstar Chris Denorfia. You know, the kid who is nearing his third decade without being in the majors. And I keep hearing wonderful things about this guy named Ryan Freel, who similarly didn't get to the majors until an older age. Both get props for hustle, but neither shines in all aspects of the game which is the measureing stick for outfielders, like it or not.

Enter Josh Hamilton, who seems to be reaching near his potential with a new outlook on life. I haven't seen Hamilton play except on a couple of TV games this spring, but the kid has it all. He hustles, runs well, fields so well that it amazes me and playes the game intelligently (at least when I've seen him play). He's a natural. He has power, speed, and a newly acquired attitude. Put Denorfia and Freel on any other major league club and Freel would be a utilkty man and Denorfia would probably not make the team, or if he did would be an afterthought. Let performance decide who plays, regardless of prejudices and favoritism. If he screws up, bench him or send him down, but don't sluff off his talent because of adoration of Freel and Denorfia.

Excelnt post!!.. i am rooting for Hamilton and of late i think its made Deno start steping it up to stay in the bigs. we shall see what unfolds, but if Ryan Freel has a bad hamy, Deno stays too

Tony Cloninger
03-18-2007, 11:27 AM
I know games in Sept. are way more important than spring training games.....but have you looked at the pitchers Denorfia went up against in Sept.? The 2 games that he really looked good in were against FLA (Willis and Sanchez) were he went 4 for 4 with 2 doubles....vs Willis and 2 for 4 vs Sanchez and some relievers. After that he went 4 for 16 to finish out the year against Nolasco (FLA), Duke (PITT), McLeary (PITT) and Youman (PITT). All of these starters were in there at least 6-7 innings.

So while I understand any doubts you have over Hamilton.....to think that Denorfia would or should be a lock based on 2 good games in Sept. is not exactly correct.

Marc D
03-18-2007, 11:36 AM
At this point make the OF Dunn, Hamilton, JR. Use Freel as the IF/OF sub and Deno is the 4th OF. If Hamilton can't take it north with him he goes to the 4th OF and Deno gets his shot. JR spends what non-DL time he has in him this year in RF and only RF.

JR's DL time and the Reds win % are the 2 unknowns that can make this whole delima real easy in a short amount of time. If/when JR goes down you need have a clear cut OF with Freel as the 4th. If we tank as a team you run Hamilton out there come hell or high water, only stop if it might be affecting his confidence.

Ultimately I don't think this years success/failure is going to be laid at the feet of the Hamilton experiment. He hasn't given you any reason to not let him have the shot, let him have it and lets see what we've got. As always, the Narron effect on the seemingly simple equation cannot be accounted for and is why I have full confidence this situation will be FUBAR'd.

dougdirt
03-18-2007, 11:41 AM
I know games in Sept. are way more important than spring training games.....but have you looked at the pitchers Denorfia went up against in Sept.? The 2 games that he really looked good in were against FLA (Willis and Sanchez) were he went 4 for 4 with 2 doubles....vs Willis and 2 for 4 vs Sanchez and some relievers. After that he went 4 for 16 to finish out the year against Nolasco (FLA), Duke (PITT), McLeary (PITT) and Youman (PITT). All of these starters were in there at least 6-7 innings.

So while I understand any doubts you have over Hamilton.....to think that Denorfia would or should be a lock based on 2 good games in Sept. is not exactly correct.

He went 2-3 against the Padres. 1-3 off of Oswalt and the Astros. 2-4 later in the month with a HR against the Astros. 2-4 later in the month against the Cubs. To say he had 2 good games in September is also not exactly correct. your example provided 20 at bats....but ignored the other 34 in the month.

edabbs44
03-18-2007, 11:47 AM
I know games in Sept. are way more important than spring training games.....but have you looked at the pitchers Denorfia went up against in Sept.? The 2 games that he really looked good in were against FLA (Willis and Sanchez) were he went 4 for 4 with 2 doubles....vs Willis and 2 for 4 vs Sanchez and some relievers. After that he went 4 for 16 to finish out the year against Nolasco (FLA), Duke (PITT), McLeary (PITT) and Youman (PITT). All of these starters were in there at least 6-7 innings.

So while I understand any doubts you have over Hamilton.....to think that Denorfia would or should be a lock based on 2 good games in Sept. is not exactly correct.

Denorfia had 13 games where he had 3 or more plate appearances in Sept/Oct and had 8 games where he got on base 2 or more times. Not bad, huh?

I think Hamilton has potential, but to expect someone who has spent years out of the game and has something like 100 ABs over single A to really contribute this year is reaching a little bit. If he is hitting well at the end of May, then he will have absolutely proved me wrong. But his spot on the roster is pretty much guaranteed, no matter what. I'd like to see what is said if he is hitting .195 in June.

Deno has never been given a chance. After the trade in July, WK was all over the papers saying that Deno's earned Kearns' spot. He started 5 out of the next 6 games and then was banished.

He was then given a shot in September and produced. Now he has to fight for a roster spot against scrubs like Crosby and Conine. Give me a break.

Matt700wlw
03-18-2007, 11:48 AM
I said it before, and I stand by it.

If (when?) Hamilton pans out, we'll all forget about a guy named Austin Kearns....

Tony Cloninger
03-18-2007, 11:51 AM
I missed that 2 for 4 with a homer against Albers and the 2 for 4 against Mateo and Dempster. :doh:

I agree 100% he should be in over Crosby, but he is still no more than the 4th/5th OF.

RedsManRick
03-18-2007, 11:55 AM
Here's my problem. Speaking solely in terms of defense, Denorfia has proven himself to be a top notch defender over the course of the last few years of actual professional baseball. Hamilton has had less than a month. Now I would LOVE for Hamilton to be everything he was once projected to be. He obviously still has loads of talent and seems to have his head on straight.

Maybe I'm dead wrong, but something tells me that if Marty, or anybody else, didn't see Hamilton hit a ball 500 feet, his defense wouldn't look quite so good. Call it the Jeter Effect. I've never seen Denorfia play, so I'm more than willing to accept that he's just "hype". But I'll take a hype based on a few years of actually play over a hot ST and 5 year old hype from before a severe drug addiction and injury.

By the way, regarding the "almost 30" comment, Denorfia is just 9 months older than Josh Hamilton. Denorfia has 434 AA at bats, 625 AAA at bats, and 144 Major League at bats with solid numbers at every step and a great defensive reputation. Hamilton has 89 AA at bats and a rep for being a bonehead. That's it. Denorfia has nowhere near the ceiling of Josh Hamilton, but if I'm going to pencil one guy in and make the other guy prove he belongs, I'm not going to base that decision on 3 weeks of ST. I really really like what I've seen from Hamilton this spring. Everything suggests he's a much more mature ballplayer in terms of approach. But it's still been just 3 weeks.

Hamilton should get plenty of opportunity -- but the idea that Denorfia is only a 4th OF because he doesn't have 30 HR potential is stupid. Everything he's done to date suggests he would be a quality starting CF in the major leagues. My real gripe isn't about Hamilton or Denorfia specifically. I hope both do well and we have a glut of quality OF. It's a tendency across MLB to pass over guys who are merely pretty good, instead focusing on guys with supposedly higher ceilings. I know it's a balancing act. Average doesn't win championships. But never giving a guy an opportunity because his ceiling is only "major league regular" is a folly in my opinion. Ask Matt Murton.

If you keep Deno as a back-up OF, you've basically set his value in the market as such. If you give him 300 AB to start the season, a few things can happen:
1.) He bombs out. Fine, back to back-up duty and enter Josh Hamilton. You now know that if Hamilton doesn't pan out, Deno is not an option either.
2.) He's decent, but not great. Ok, you know about what you've got. If somebody needs a decent OF, you now have a "proven" trading chit. You also know you've got somebody you can plug in there but probably don't want to pencil in long term.
3.) He's great. He posts .300/.360/.440 and plays GG defense and now you have a surplus from which you can make a trade to improve the team. Or you can simply enjoy your new solid CF.

Hamilton is going to be around all year and cannot be optioned. You don't need more knowledge to know what you're going to do with him. You do need to figure out what Deno can give you or you have little chance of making the best use of him -- be it as a starter, bench guy, minor league reserve, or trade bait.

The real man left out of the mix here is Freel. Freel is a solid OBP guy with no power and, while he has speed and steals bases, he actually does more harm than good on the basepaths. His defense is solid in the OF, but not as good as it looks because he's using his speed to make up for poor jumps. His style, while infectious and exciting, tends to get him hurt. I love Freel as a pinch hitter, pinch runner, and all around utility guy. But with other options in camp, he should not be starting in CF.

mth123
03-18-2007, 11:58 AM
Which I think many here agree with, which just furthers the point that Crosby and some of these old relievers have no spot on this team if they management [JN and WK] are thinking clearly.

If we're simply rolling dice on the year, let's roll them with youth. Nothing would be worse than a bunch of old guys coming in and doing half the job that the youngsters could have for 3 times the pay.

Yep. Well said.

Tony Cloninger
03-18-2007, 12:07 PM
He looked terrible when he came up here.....he almost looked like a pitcher trying to hit.
They should have given him a month to work that out....but they were also trying to win ballgames. Freel was a better option in RF. I think they expected him to just start hitting but when he did not, he might as well been sent back down. Wayne made a mistake in declaring they were going to give Denorfia a shot. Should have just said it's between Freel and Denorfia and see who emerges. Less pressure on Chris maybe would have helped.

Crosby is a scrub......Triple A lifer who get's called up when someone is hurt.
25th man on a team like the Yankees which can hide your weaknesses.

Conine? Yes he is 41...but to call him a scrub.....Denorfia would be glad to have the career this guy has had. Problem is that when Conine is talked up as being able to play LF and RF and heaven forbid 3B......everyone sees that as terrible thing beacuse they already assume Narron will play him at will over their favorite, younger players. Since no one trusts Narron in this regard...i can understand the frustration that Denorfia will get the shaft.

I think if this team carries 12 pitchers (they should not have to!) then Conine becomes the 5th OF option (he should not be, he should be the 6th option) and the 3rd option at 3B.

mth123
03-18-2007, 12:18 PM
Conine? Yes he is 41...but to call him a scrub.....Denorfia would be glad to have the career this guy has had. Problem is that when Conine is talked up as being able to play LF and RF and heaven forbid 3B......everyone sees that as terrible thing beacuse they already assume Narron will play him at will over their favorite, younger players. Since no one trusts Narron in this regard...i can understand the frustration that Denorfia will get the shaft.

Conine has had a nice career. No one is disputing that. Willie Mays did too, but I don't want him out there either in 2007. Conine has not been a good player for a long time at positions where offense is abundant. He has basically been a fringe caliber guy since 2000 or so. Better options at his positions are pretty easy to find.

PuffyPig
03-18-2007, 12:18 PM
....and an absolute lack of slugging at 1B.

Hatteburg and Conine could easily platoon for 20 HR's at first base, based on last years stats.

Certainly not an absolute lack of slugging and not likley much less than you would get from the rookie Votto.

mth123
03-18-2007, 12:24 PM
Hatteburg and Conine could easily platoon for 20 HR's at first base, based on last years stats.

Certainly not an absolute lack of slugging and not likley much less than you would get from the rookie Votto.

Hatteberg slugged .436 in a favorable park in one of his better years and has shown a pattern of having a terrible year after a good one. Conine slugged .390.

Those numbers from the 1B spot are a real disadvantage as compared to the competition and require plus slugging at one of the defensive spots to compensate.

edabbs44
03-18-2007, 12:43 PM
I said it before, and I stand by it.

If (when?) Hamilton pans out, we'll all forget about a guy named Austin Kearns....

...but still remember Majewski and Bray.

jojo
03-18-2007, 12:58 PM
Hamilton should get plenty of opportunity -- but the idea that Denorfia is only a 4th OF because he doesn't have 30 HR potential is stupid.

Yes....this is a pet peeve of mine.....evaluating a player for what he can't do rather than what he can do is a lousy way to evaluate talent... it's a great way to make personnel mistakes though...

Tony Cloninger
03-18-2007, 02:52 PM
I would rather have Votto at 1B myself.......that stuff about having to work on his defense is lame. Unless he is Dick "Dr. Strangeglove" Stuart...then he probably should be given as many AB's as possible in the majors this year.
I can see why they would re-sign the Hat.....just in case.....But i think they would have been better off with getting Conine and then having Votto up here. That would be a better LH/RH platoon.

The whole OF picture would be clearer if the Griffey saga could have ended last year and he would have been a FA. Even if he does get healthy and stays that way....i do not see another 2005 type season coming from him.

Matt700wlw
03-18-2007, 03:20 PM
...but still remember Majewski and Bray.

Can't help you there :D

RedsManRick
03-18-2007, 04:43 PM
Yes....this is a pet peeve of mine.....evaluating a player for what he can't do rather than what he can do is a lousy way to evaluate talent... it's a great way to make personnel mistakes though...

Exactly, especially when it's ignoring what a guy can do in favor what somebody else MIGHT be able to do.

MartyFan
03-18-2007, 08:25 PM
MHO is that Deno should be on the team as well. NO DOUBT that Hamilton belongs on this team and he should be a starter...CF...move Junior to RF or trade him and put Deno in RF.

Yeah, I know...it sounds crazy to me too but I think Deno is more than an afterthought on a MLB roster...he has proven everything he needs to prove at the AAA level and he now deserves a shot from day one of the season to be in the MLB...as a starter? YES.

Dunn, Hamilton and Deno in the OF would be great...I know Dunn is not a great OF...in fact many times it appears he has a concrete mit on his hand and weights in his shoes but without moving Dunn to 1B h is in the OF and his bat stays in the lineup.

KySteveH
03-18-2007, 11:56 PM
Conine has had a nice career. No one is disputing that. Willie Mays did too, but I don't want him out there either in 2007. Conine has not been a good player for a long time at positions where offense is abundant. He has basically been a fringe caliber guy since 2000 or so. Better options at his positions are pretty easy to find.
Willie Mays in 2007 > Lonnie Smith in 1985 > Kal Daniels anytime