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Willy
03-18-2007, 10:06 PM
Per rotoworld and Foxsports

Ken Griffey Jr. will play right field when he eventually makes his spring debut, FOXSports.com's Ken Rosenthal reports.

Ryan Freel should be a substantial upgrade over Griffey in center, and Josh Hamilton will also show more range than Griffey when he's asked to fill in. At this point, it's reasonable to wonder whether Griffey can even be a capable right fielder. With Adam Dunn over in left, the Reds still figure to have as weak of an outfield defense as there is in the game.

reds44
03-18-2007, 10:16 PM
Instead, he learned at the start of camp that he would be in right.
I believe I had this one pegged all along. We can all now stop with the Wayne/Narron don't have the stones to tell him what to do talk.

This is an excellent move. The question now becomes, who starts in CF on opening day? Hamilton, Freel, or Denorfia or do we try to acquire somebody else?

I'm not trying to start a conspiracy theory here, but is there a rift developing between management and Junior? The words exchanged between Junior and Narron through the media certainly were not "friendly".

Chip R
03-18-2007, 10:20 PM
Perhaps I'm just a little too excited over Hamilton's ST but maybe he should be the starter in CF - or RF if Jr. can't or won't play RF. At first I would have thought it was ridiculous to start Hamilton and that he'd make a good 25th man. But with the momentum he has from ST, benching him may not be the best thing for his development. If he's only getting 5-6 ABs a week against premiere pitching, it's sink or swim whereas if he gets 20-25 ABs a week, it's not a big deal if he looks bad in a couple of ABs.

reds44
03-18-2007, 10:23 PM
if Jr. can't or won't play RF.
You think he really would refuse/is refusing to play RF?

Redus
03-18-2007, 10:42 PM
If he refuses he must go. Send him to Detroit for Thames and a pitching prospect.

George Anderson
03-18-2007, 10:45 PM
If he refuses he must go. Send him to Detroit for Thames and a pitching prospect.

Griffey has to approve the trade.

M2
03-18-2007, 10:58 PM
All that's being reported is Jr. will play RF when he makes his spring training debut. It doesn't say the move has been made permanently. It's good news and hopefully sliding him over is just a formality, but Jr.'s whole situation is so fluid at the moment (where will he play, when will he play, will be be ready for opening day?) that numerous bizarre things could happen.

Caveat Emperor
03-18-2007, 11:17 PM
Perhaps I'm just a little too excited over Hamilton's ST but maybe he should be the starter in CF - or RF if Jr. can't or won't play RF. At first I would have thought it was ridiculous to start Hamilton and that he'd make a good 25th man. But with the momentum he has from ST, benching him may not be the best thing for his development. If he's only getting 5-6 ABs a week against premiere pitching, it's sink or swim whereas if he gets 20-25 ABs a week, it's not a big deal if he looks bad in a couple of ABs.

I agree with this assessment, somewhat. I don't think there is any way you can put a Rule V guy with little to no experience above A-ball as the starting CF on a team and expect it to be anything other than a disaster. But, by the same token, if you're going to carry the guy on the 25 man you've got to give him regular PT to help him improve.

I'd be in favor of platooning him in a 3-man rotation with Freel and Griffey -- spelling Griffey 1 time per week and then splitting CF duties with Freel on other days. Freel can always get ABs at other positions as well.

I think Hamilton is going to fall hard back to earth once the season starts, but the only way he'll get better is to see more pitching.

reds44
03-18-2007, 11:23 PM
FYI, Dan Uggla was a Rule V pick last year. Granted, Uggla's and Hamilton's situations are different, but Uggla proved a Rule V pick and step up and produce right away.

Hamilton is going to struggle at times to get adjusted to major league pitching. He'll learn though. The question is how much of his pure talent offsets the lack of expierence.

Redus
03-18-2007, 11:26 PM
Griffey has to approve the trade.

He might go there...AL Team and a very good one.

roby
03-18-2007, 11:30 PM
Griffey has to approve the trade.

Then send him home.

George Anderson
03-18-2007, 11:31 PM
He might go there...AL Team and a very good one.

Well I hope you are right but if memory serves me correct Griffey rejected a trade to the Chisox in 05. I believe they were a shoo in for the playoffs but he still rejected the trade. Some one correct me if I am wrong please.

jnwohio
03-18-2007, 11:33 PM
I agree with this assessment, somewhat. I don't think there is any way you can put a Rule V guy with little to no experience above A-ball as the starting CF on a team and expect it to be anything other than a disaster. But, by the same token, if you're going to carry the guy on the 25 man you've got to give him regular PT to help him improve.

I'd be in favor of platooning him in a 3-man rotation with Freel and Griffey -- spelling Griffey 1 time per week and then splitting CF duties with Freel on other days. Freel can always get ABs at other positions as well.

I think Hamilton is going to fall hard back to earth once the season starts, but the only way he'll get better is to see more pitching.

Narron says he is the best defensive outfielder in camp. If he gives them the best fielding option in CF, how much offense does he have to contribute to be the starter? I don't pretend to know and I am not sure the Reds management has a handle on it at this point

Obviously more offense would be needed from Hamilton if he were in the line up instead of Freel; but if Jr, is not playing and Freel and Hamilton are in 2 of the slots, Hanilton would not have to do any more than what you might get from Denorfia; or perhaps Conine (in a Freel in CF, Conine in RF scenario). And his defense would cover some of the slack

roby
03-18-2007, 11:34 PM
Well I hope you are right but if memory serves me correct Griffey rejected a trade to the Chisox in 05. I believe they were a shoo in for the playoffs but he still rejected the trade. Some one correct me if I am wrong please.

I might be wrong, but i thought junior said in retrosepct that he would have approved a trade there if asked. evidently he was never approached about the trade. Am I remembering wrong?

BEETTLEBUG
03-18-2007, 11:37 PM
If I remember right I thought Linder stoped that deal to White Sox not Jr.

reds44
03-18-2007, 11:44 PM
If I remember right I thought Linder stoped that deal to White Sox not Jr.
Indeed. It never even got to Junior.

ND_redsfan10
03-18-2007, 11:44 PM
Griffey will start the season in right field......IF he ever starts the season.

Sheesh!

tripleaaaron
03-18-2007, 11:53 PM
Griffey has to approve the trade.

If it does come to this, which I think we are all digging way too deaply on this, I dont think this little part of griffey's contract would become a problem, if he is refusing to play RF and the Reds hold strong than he would invariably want a trade. If he and management were neck and neck then why would he reject moving somewhere he could play CF and contend. Obviously his list probably would be somewhat short but I dont think he would necessarily reject all trades

Gainesville Red
03-19-2007, 12:05 AM
If I remember right I thought Linder stoped that deal to White Sox not Jr.

Does anyone remember what they were offering?

cacollinsmba
03-19-2007, 12:12 AM
Does anyone remember what they were offering?

One proposal:

"The Sox certainly had interest in Griffey and had a deal in place for him less than two weeks ago, the day before the non-waiver trade deadline. The Sox were going to send minor-leaguers Chris Young and Casey Rogowski to Cincinnati, along with a lower-level prospect. The Reds were believed to be willing to pick up a chunk of what remains on Griffey's contract, which pays him $12.5 million a year until 2009."

http://talk.ocregister.com/archive/index.php/t-15583.html

Phhhl
03-19-2007, 12:17 AM
One proposal:

"The Sox certainly had interest in Griffey and had a deal in place for him less than two weeks ago, the day before the non-waiver trade deadline. The Sox were going to send minor-leaguers Chris Young and Casey Rogowski to Cincinnati, along with a lower-level prospect. The Reds were believed to be willing to pick up a chunk of what remains on Griffey's contract, which pays him $12.5 million a year until 2009."

http://talk.ocregister.com/archive/index.php/t-15583.html

That would have been a nice deal even if the Reds had to pay some salary.

KronoRed
03-19-2007, 03:18 AM
Considering only 2 years remain on his deal (with a buyout for 09) the Reds should pay all of it if it means a nice return of prospects.

But that's all moot IMO, he's going nowhere.

Jpup
03-19-2007, 04:47 AM
I think Jr. will be playing RF for the Reds for the next 2 years unless he decides to walk away. I know that might be far-fetched, but I could see Jr. hanging them up if the hand doesn't react like it should. It seems to be taking an awful long time for that hand to heal up.

As long as he is in right field I am not opposed to Jr. playing out his contract in Cincinnati. I just can't see him going to Detroit at all. First of all, the Tigers don't need him and for crying out loud, it's Detroit.

Ltlabner
03-19-2007, 06:09 AM
I think Jr. will be playing RF for the Reds for the next 2 years unless he decides to walk away. I know that might be far-fetched, but I could see Jr. hanging them up if the hand doesn't react like it should. It seems to be taking an awful long time for that hand to heal up.

As long as he is in right field I am not opposed to Jr. playing out his contract in Cincinnati. I just can't see him going to Detroit at all. First of all, the Tigers don't need him and for crying out loud, it's Detroit.

I told GAC in a chat session a few weeks ago, that I didn't think it was far fetched that Jr might just use this wrist injury as a reason to hang it up for good. With the emergence of Hamilton, who is killing the ball after a 4 year vacation and drug issues, it might be enough of a signal to Jr that his 37 year old body, that takes months to heal from a wrist injury, is about done.


Another scenario is the Reds and he work a deal where they plan on him to only play X number of games, perhaps even reworking his contract to reflected the reduced playing time. The Reds still need his bat (assuming last year's issues haven't worsened) and it gives him a grealty reduced playing time without just shuffling off. A chance for a month or two of greatness on the way out the door.

Just ramblings, and probably not likely, but not out of the relm of possibility either.

mth123
03-19-2007, 06:27 AM
I think Griffey is just taking his time. He's not trying to win a job and hitters only need about 10 days or so to get ready. By him being out, others are getting a shot to play a little and Griffey is avoiding any chance at further injury in meaningless spring games. Remember last year, he played in the World Baseball Classic and was pretty hot in it and during Spring but had a pretty bad year for his standards. Spring training is 6 weeks long for the pitchers to get ready and doesn't mean much for an established position player. I'm guessing that we'll see Griffey Wednesday or so.

As long as this doesn't turn into an excuse to stay in CF, I have no problem with Griffey taking it slow. I'd rather a fragile player like Griffey avoid the risk of early Spring games.

StillFunkyB
03-19-2007, 06:56 AM
Sweet. Another trade Griffey thread.

berryluther
03-19-2007, 09:05 AM
I know that this thread is about JR I just wanted to chime in about Hamilton.

I was listening to ESPN Radio on Saturday and Tim Kurkian was on and was talking about Hamilton. He said that a scout for the O's was at the Reds vs Yankees and that Rivera had just abused Dunn and then had Hamilton down 0-2 he then fought back fouled off a few pitches and earned a walk and the scout stood up and yelled at Hamilton "It isnt supposed to be that easy"

Another scout said he will be in the Reds opening day lineup and by May will be a middle of the lineup run producer.

I usually dont put much in what Timmy says because he is usually bad mouthing the Reds but he seems genuine about Hamilton.

Honestly with the stats Freel puts up when he is playing everyday is that anyworse than what Hamilton might go through getting adjusted. We have had a great ST but realisticlly we are not one of the best teams in the Central.

bucksfan2
03-19-2007, 09:43 AM
I dont understand why people are so high on Freel playing CF every day. He is a bad fundamental ball player. He makes up for a lot with speed but I just dont want him there every day. Over under for collisions with Dunn if Freel plays CF everyday is about 7.

Chip R
03-19-2007, 10:28 AM
I dont understand why people are so high on Freel playing CF every day. He is a bad fundamental ball player. He makes up for a lot with speed but I just dont want him there every day. Over under for collisions with Dunn if Freel plays CF everyday is about 7.


Freel got quite a bit of playing time on the OF last year. How many times did he collide with someone?

Always Red
03-19-2007, 11:02 AM
This is good news!

Junior to right, and either Hamilton, Deno or Freel in center- I really don't care which of them starts out there. I think Deno is at the bottom of that list right now. I also have questions concerning Freel's durability, and Hamilton's lack of experience, but between the three of them, they'll get it done out there.

I expect there has been, and will continue to be, the usual amount of Junior sulking, but if the past is any indication, he'll get over it and see what everyone else can see- that all three of those guys mentioned above can play CF better than he can right now. Junior's a proud guy, so it will take him a little time to get over it, but I think he's also a team player at heart, wants to be on a winner before he retires, and will do what it takes to make that happen. Junior does tend to sulk a little, but doesn't like to complain directly to the press, or even have them report on his petulance- that's when he gets mad, as he did at Fay last week.

Handofdeath
03-19-2007, 11:53 AM
I know that this thread is about JR I just wanted to chime in about Hamilton.

I was listening to ESPN Radio on Saturday and Tim Kurkian was on and was talking about Hamilton. He said that a scout for the O's was at the Reds vs Yankees and that Rivera had just abused Dunn and then had Hamilton down 0-2 he then fought back fouled off a few pitches and earned a walk and the scout stood up and yelled at Hamilton "It isnt supposed to be that easy"

Another scout said he will be in the Reds opening day lineup and by May will be a middle of the lineup run producer.

I usually dont put much in what Timmy says because he is usually bad mouthing the Reds but he seems genuine about Hamilton.

Honestly with the stats Freel puts up when he is playing everyday is that anyworse than what Hamilton might go through getting adjusted. We have had a great ST but realisticlly we are not one of the best teams in the Central.

As far as Hamilton not having a lot of pro experience, there are a few guys that have had zero or very little minor league experience and done fairly well in the Majors. Bob Horner, Pete Incaviglia, and Robin Ventura come to mind. Now all three are among the 10 best college baseball players of all time but if a guy is ready he's ready.

MaineRed
03-19-2007, 12:12 PM
I think a lot of folks here would have a different take on Spring Training stats if say, oh, I dunno, Denorfia was putting up such numbers.

This isn't Toe Nash. MULTIPLE people have now called Hamilton the best they've ever seen, including Adam Dunn who got hammered over the issue on this board.

It was reported on WEEI this morning in Boston that scouts were saying the same thing. The guys on EEI were asking, better than Griffey? The answer was apparently yes.

Now I don't know who these scouts were but for that story to make it onto this particular Boston radio station it wasn't pulled off an ESPN message board.

Since I'm just a fan and can make such assertions, the Reds have pulled off one of the biggest steals in recent memory.

BRM
03-19-2007, 12:35 PM
From Trent's blog:


Mentioned Ken Rosenthal's story fthat said Junior had been told he would move to right. Jerry's response was: "he has?"

crazybob60
03-19-2007, 01:03 PM
I think a lot of folks here would have a different take on Spring Training stats if say, oh, I dunno, Denorfia was putting up such numbers.

This isn't Toe Nash. MULTIPLE people have now called Hamilton the best they've ever seen, including Adam Dunn who got hammered over the issue on this board.

It was reported on WEEI this morning in Boston that scouts were saying the same thing. The guys on EEI were asking, better than Griffey? The answer was apparently yes.

Now I don't know who these scouts were but for that story to make it onto this particular Boston radio station it wasn't pulled off an ESPN message board.

Since I'm just a fan and can make such assertions, the Reds have pulled off one of the biggest steals in recent memory.

Now were they saying that Hamilton was better than Griffey, at Griffey's current age, or were they saying that Hamilton was better than Griffey, when Griffey was Hamilton's age?

BRM
03-19-2007, 01:16 PM
An update from Trent:


Back to the Junior stuff. Here's what Jerry had to say:
When asked if there was validity to Rosenthal's report: "To be honest with you, right now weíre just waiting for Junior to be ready to play and weíll see what goes on after that."
When asked if there's a point where they consider putting Griffey on the DL to start the season: "Thereís a good chance of it, but weíll see how he goes, see where he is. The one thing he has had going for him is that heís been able to see live pitching in simulated games. If he wouldnít have had simulated games, it might be a little different."

bucksfan2
03-19-2007, 01:45 PM
The only downfall with Jr. moving to RF would be his relative lack of arm strength. I think it would be a better defensive outfield with Dunn, Hamilton/Deno, Jr. I think Jr. would make Hamilton's job as a CF a little easier because Jr. is a CF. I think Jr. probably sees that with Hamilton there is a better option than what there was before. I do not see Freel as an everyday CF. I have seen him play with reckless abandon, cutting in front of other outfielders, getting bad jumps on balls, etc. Freel is not a natural CF he makes up for a lot of it by his speed but I think there are some downfalls with him in CF.

Team Clark
03-19-2007, 02:06 PM
The only downfall with Jr. moving to RF would be his relative lack of arm strength. I think it would be a better defensive outfield with Dunn, Hamilton/Deno, Jr. I think Jr. would make Hamilton's job as a CF a little easier because Jr. is a CF. I think Jr. probably sees that with Hamilton there is a better option than what there was before. I do not see Freel as an everyday CF. I have seen him play with reckless abandon, cutting in front of other outfielders, getting bad jumps on balls, etc. Freel is not a natural CF he makes up for a lot of it by his speed but I think there are some downfalls with him in CF.

As long as Junior can get the ball relatively quick to Brandon Phillips for a cut I'm not too terribly worried about arm strength. If he's throwing rainbows and runners are advancing I would be concerned. Playing a corner position can, on certain throws, cut off 30-40 feet from your throw. This could be good for Jr.

rotnoid
03-19-2007, 03:08 PM
What makes people thing Detroit would want Junior anyway. That ballpark is huge. If he's lost a step or two, there's no way he could cover enough ground to be effective there. And they have younger/cheaper/better options at DH (which I can't see Junior agreeing to anyway).

As for Hamilton, he almost has to fall back to earth. There's no way a guy with his troubles has the mental capacity to keep up this much intensity over a full 162. That being said, he also can't ride the pind 4+ days a week. Given his arm strength and offensive advantage (IMHO) over Freel and Deno, he's got to be the guy in center field, with the understanding that he's the guy and that's that. Taking some of the pressure to perform off the guy might just improve the situation long term.

BRM
03-19-2007, 03:40 PM
The latest from C. Trent:


LAKELAND, Fla. -- Jerry Narron just said if Griffey does start Opening Day, it will be in right field.

Will have more after I transcribe this tape.

:beerme:

MaineRed
03-19-2007, 03:48 PM
crazybob, these folks are talking anyone at any age. People are calling Hamilton the most talented player they have ever seen. Period. We can jump on them all we want but the fact that more than one person has said it, should open some eyes.

Sounds like Junior is the right fielder. I like it. I don't think he is going to be any less criticized out there but it does give us better coverage in center.

Good news. This is probably why Deno has been playing on the corners. He is the back-up to Griffey should he go on the DL. The Reds figure to have CF covered with Freel and Hamilton for now. Deno is line to get corner ABs depending on other factors, like injuries and with Griffey you have to figure on them. Especially when he already has one.

I think we are going to get a Hamilton-Freel combo in CF with Freel getting some ABs on the infield.

Someone else will be hurt at some point. If Gonzo goes down does BP go to SS and Freel to second? What if Edwin gets hurt? Will Freel play third?

I wouldn't be surprised to see Hamilton, Freel and Deno playing together a lot this season.

registerthis
03-19-2007, 03:50 PM
Someone else will be hurt at some point. If Gonzo goes down does BP go to SS and Freel to second? What if Edwin gets hurt? Will Freel play third?

It's looking more and more like Hamilton making this team isn't just a nice story, but something the Reds really need him to do.

BRM
03-19-2007, 04:16 PM
The latest:


Jerry:



Right now, thatís what our plan is. We would have loved for him to be available Opening Day to play center field, it just didnít work out. We had to make a decision. This late in the spring we need to get our club out on the field. Iíve got to do everything I can do to put our best club out there. My feeling is that with Ryan Freel out there it gives us strong defense up the middle with Gonzalez and Phillips and Freel.

I talked to Junior real early about that. I would have loved for him to come in Day One and we could have played him in center field and it just didnít work out. I had to make a decision on limited spring training and thatís the decision I made.

Weíve got to get our club ready and thatís the whole thing. Itís a decision I have not taken lightly. I respect everything Griffís done in this game tremendously. Itís something I havenít done on my own. I talked to other people in baseball to see if Iím missing something. Iím just doing everything I can to put the best team on the field and do whatís best for each one of our players also.

BRM
03-19-2007, 04:17 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see Hamilton, Freel and Deno playing together a lot this season.

That's a pretty rangy OF there.

MaineRed
03-19-2007, 04:20 PM
I figure Freel will be on the IF somewhere, but you are right, it certainly would be.

I think things are coming into focus.

Freel in CF. Hamilton backs him up. Hamilton and Deno play RF if Griffey can't go.

Where that leaves Deno when everyone is healthy, I dunno. For the Reds, AAA is probably the best bet to get him consistent ABs. He'll be back if he goes down. There will be plenty of injuries down the road.

BRM
03-19-2007, 04:22 PM
It's looking more and more like Junior may start the year on the DL. If that's the case, Deno will begin the year with the big club.

redsfan30
03-19-2007, 04:26 PM
Narron had to chose his words very carefully when explaining this move, and I think he did a wonderful job of it.

My question is this; does this peg Junior as the everyday right fielder? Or just here and there?

BRM
03-19-2007, 04:28 PM
If Freel struggles or gets hurt down the road, does Junior slide back to CF or does Deno or Hamilton assume the spot? It will be interesting to see it all play out, that's for sure.

Chip R
03-19-2007, 04:38 PM
Narron had to chose his words very carefully when explaining this move, and I think he did a wonderful job of it.

My question is this; does this peg Junior as the everyday right fielder? Or just here and there?


Good question.

Degenerate39
03-19-2007, 04:39 PM
For centerfield why not have Freel and Deno platoon and Hamilton can fill in for one of them if they get hurt.

pedro
03-19-2007, 04:46 PM
crazybob, these folks are talking anyone at any age. People are calling Hamilton the most talented player they have ever seen. Period. We can jump on them all we want but the fact that more than one person has said it, should open some eyes.

Sounds like Junior is the right fielder. I like it. I don't think he is going to be any less criticized out there but it does give us better coverage in center.

Good news. This is probably why Deno has been playing on the corners. He is the back-up to Griffey should he go on the DL. The Reds figure to have CF covered with Freel and Hamilton for now. Deno is line to get corner ABs depending on other factors, like injuries and with Griffey you have to figure on them. Especially when he already has one.

I think we are going to get a Hamilton-Freel combo in CF with Freel getting some ABs on the infield.

Someone else will be hurt at some point. If Gonzo goes down does BP go to SS and Freel to second? What if Edwin gets hurt? Will Freel play third?

I wouldn't be surprised to see Hamilton, Freel and Deno playing together a lot this season.

That seems like a reasonable take on the situation although I'm not so sure about that last sentence. Dunn doesn't miss a lot of games.

reds44
03-19-2007, 05:04 PM
Narron sure made it seem like Freel was going to be the everyday CFer with his comments.

I gotta say, I love what Jerry is doing here. He earns major points with me.

KronoRed
03-19-2007, 05:10 PM
That seems like a reasonable take on the situation although I'm not so sure about that last sentence. Dunn doesn't miss a lot of games.
And Narron doesn't seem to like to put him at 1st.

Freel will be the CF till he goes into a funk as he often does, then it'll be Hamiltons turn, I do wonder who will play CF if Hamilton tanks and Freel is hurt.

BRM
03-19-2007, 05:22 PM
Junior's agent speaks:


Also, here's what Junior's agent, Brian Goldberg had to say: "We've known that for a long time. It was the Reds perrogative when they wanted to announce it even though they told us a long time ago. Junior understands the team tells us where he should play and that's the way it should be."

MississippiRed
03-19-2007, 05:51 PM
Now were they saying that Hamilton was better than Griffey, at Griffey's current age, or were they saying that Hamilton was better than Griffey, when Griffey was Hamilton's age?

I don't believe anyone was ever better than Griffey when he was Hamilton's age.

icehole3
03-19-2007, 05:55 PM
Goldberg has spoken so its officially official

gm
03-19-2007, 06:34 PM
There was a video interview of Junior on the mlb website (a week or so back) where he said "they" hadn't decided (on CF-RF) yet, but they'd have a sit down when Senior arrived in camp...so is it any coincidence that Senior arrived in camp yesterday and the "news" was made public, today?

Mario-Rijo
03-19-2007, 07:25 PM
Jerry:



Right now, thatís what our plan is. We would have loved for him to be available Opening Day to play center field, it just didnít work out. We had to make a decision. This late in the spring we need to get our club out on the field. Iíve got to do everything I can do to put our best club out there. My feeling is that with Ryan Freel out there it gives us strong defense up the middle with Gonzalez and Phillips and Freel.

I talked to Junior real early about that. I would have loved for him to come in Day One and we could have played him in center field and it just didnít work out. I had to make a decision on limited spring training and thatís the decision I made.

Weíve got to get our club ready and thatís the whole thing. Itís a decision I have not taken lightly. I respect everything Griffís done in this game tremendously. Itís something I havenít done on my own. I talked to other people in baseball to see if Iím missing something. Iím just doing everything I can to put the best team on the field and do whatís best for each one of our players also.

That is one of the smartest things Narron has ever done IMO, as our Manager anyway. It was the 1000 lb pink gorilla in the room and had to be addressed in order for management to gain any degree of serious respect from it's fan base. At least now I am convinced that they are trying to do what's in the best interest of the team. The only thing left will be to move him out of the 3 hole, which should be sometime at the beginning of next season if I have their time table down.

cacollinsmba
03-19-2007, 07:29 PM
I wonder how much of a role Sr. has had in talking to Jr. about playing RF. I haven't really seen that mentioned.

I guess I have been asleep because until I read the Enquirer today, I didn't realize that Sr. is working as a scout for the Reds. Incidentally, I think it's great to see so many BRM vets working with the team - I wasn't aware Geronimo was going to be in camp this spring.

M2
03-19-2007, 07:35 PM
Somebody needs to ask Narron a follow up question. Is he saying Jr. won't be the opening day CF or is he saying that Jr.'s been permanently switched to RF? It sounds like the former and that he could still move back to CF after he works his way into game shape.

On a separate note, Josh Hamilton isn't within a dozen country miles of the talent of guys like Jr. and Bonds at age 26 and no amount of hyperbole will change that. Somebody tossed around the name Larry Walker when talking about Hamilton in some thread over the past week and I'd say that's probably his one-in-a-million absolute best case scenario. Jeff Jones is still on the table too.

BUTLER REDSFAN
03-19-2007, 08:08 PM
i hope i'm wrong but i have a feeeling this will get real nasty before its over with.

mth123
03-19-2007, 08:38 PM
I posted earlier today that I thought that Griffey was just taking it easy in Spring Training (and I still think that is the most likely explanation) but if the earlier allegations that he was sitting out to derail the move to RF have any shred of truth, Narron certainly turned the tables.

He basically said that since Griffey wasn't available to play in Spring that he has to move him RF. If Griffey was playing some kind of game by sitting, it backfired on him. That was an expert move by Narron that put the responsibility squarely on Griffey and I sure gained some respect for Narron based on that.

MaineRed
03-19-2007, 09:18 PM
That seems like a reasonable take on the situation although I'm not so sure about that last sentence. Dunn doesn't miss a lot of games.

Like I mentioned to BRM, I was figuring on Freel being in the IF somewhere under that scenario. I wasn't talking about a Freel, Deno, Hamilton outfield, just the three of them in the same line-up.

I'd be surprised if we see that particular OF more than a couple of times.


On a separate note, Josh Hamilton isn't within a dozen country miles of the talent of guys like Jr. and Bonds at age 26 and no amount of hyperbole will change that.

Maybe you are right. But you are just guessing. He probably isn't THAT good but we have something. And I think it is better than the skeptics think.

M2
03-19-2007, 09:37 PM
I posted earlier today that I thought that Griffey was just taking it easy in Spring Training (and I still think that is the most likely explanation) but if the earlier allegations that he was sitting out to derail the move to RF have any shred of truth, Narron certainly turned the tables.

He basically said that since Griffey wasn't available to play in Spring that he has to move him RF. If Griffey was playing some kind of game by sitting, it backfired on him. That was an expert move by Narron that put the responsibility squarely on Griffey and I sure gained some respect for Narron based on that.

I'd definitely have respect for Narron if that's the way it's shaken out.

Though I have a hard time believing Jr. would pull a stunt like that. Frankly, I'd be for moving him to right bench if that's what he's been up to.

mth123
03-19-2007, 09:48 PM
I'd definitely have respect for Narron if that's the way it's shaken out.

Though I have a hard time believing Jr. would pull a stunt like that. Frankly, I'd be for moving him to right bench if that's what he's been up to.

I have a hard time believing it as well. But it certainly took the "I haven't had time to work on my new position in the Spring" off the table before Griffey had a chance to pull it out.

It seems like some speculated last year that there was no chance of Griffey possibly moving when Kearns was traded and Deno came-up because he didn't have Spring to work on his new position. I had a real fear we'd be hearing that around March 30th or so.

Major kudos to Narron from me for this. I've been critical in the past, but I gotta be fair.

membengal
03-19-2007, 10:24 PM
Narron has his issues, but I love the way he handled this today. Definite props to him for boxing Jr. in on the issue. And it addresses what everyone sees, Jr.'s time in CF is done. That the Reds see that also and are moving to address the issue proactively is perhaps the most positive development of the spring...

geniusMoment
03-19-2007, 10:35 PM
I love it, finally the Reds are taking the gloves off when dealing with Griffey. If he doesn't like it I'd love for Griff to retire and save the Reds the money, giving them plenty to spend or trade for. Griffey can go join his boy Larkin in Washington and they can be old bitter men together.

fisch11
03-19-2007, 10:54 PM
Narron confirmed the move in an ESPN article, Freel to start opening day in center.

dougdirt
03-19-2007, 11:00 PM
I love it, finally the Reds are taking the gloves off when dealing with Griffey. If he doesn't like it I'd love for Griff to retire and save the Reds the money, giving them plenty to spend or trade for. Griffey can go join his boy Larkin in Washington and they can be old bitter men together.

Or rather than blaming one player hamstringing the teams payroll....the owner could open up his wallet and spend a little money rather than have a 70 million dollar payroll?

reds44
03-19-2007, 11:02 PM
Or rather than blaming one player hamstringing the teams payroll....the owner could open up his wallet and spend a little money rather than have a 70 million dollar payroll?
:rolleyes:

Because B-Cast hasn't shown a willingness to spend money.

It's not one player hamstrining (nice pun btw) the teams payroll, it's 2.

BEETTLEBUG
03-19-2007, 11:12 PM
I don't give Freel CF. It is Hamilton's to lose, Marty said Hamy was the best Defense OF out there so put Freel in Right and get SMART JERRY.

KronoRed
03-19-2007, 11:14 PM
I don't give Freel CF. It is Hamilton's to lose, Marty said Hamy was the best Defense OF out there so put Freel in Right and get SMART JERRY.

Where's JR then? in left with Dunn at 1st maybe? :)

mth123
03-19-2007, 11:15 PM
I don't give Freel CF. It is Hamilton's to lose, Marty said Hamy was the best Defense OF out there so put Freel in Right and get SMART JERRY.

If it gets Griffey permanently settled into RF and forever out of CF, I'd settle for Dewayne Wise.

M2
03-19-2007, 11:16 PM
I don't give Freel CF. It is Hamilton's to lose, Marty said Hamy was the best Defense OF out there so put Freel in Right and get SMART JERRY.

Why not just cut out the middleman and make Marty the manager?

reds44
03-19-2007, 11:18 PM
Why not just cut out the middleman and make Marty the manager?
Remember kids.

Edwin to first at Dunn off the team in Marty's world. Not to mention Steve Finley in CF.

KronoRed
03-19-2007, 11:18 PM
Why not just cut out the middleman and make Marty the manager?

Welcome to the bench Mr.Dunn.

KronoRed
03-19-2007, 11:19 PM
Remember kids.

Edwin to first at Dunn off the team in Marty's world. Not to mention Steve Finley in CF.

..and trading to get Rich back on the team.

Dracodave
03-19-2007, 11:20 PM
I don't give Freel CF. It is Hamilton's to lose, Marty said Hamy was the best Defense OF out there so put Freel in Right and get SMART JERRY.

You'd give someone with limited time who will be all question marks with the bat centerfield?

Why not make that Denorfia??

reds44
03-19-2007, 11:21 PM
You'd give someone with limited time who will be all question marks with the bat centerfield?

Why not make that Denorfia??
Because Hamilton has twice the ceiling of Denorfia.

ND_redsfan10
03-19-2007, 11:27 PM
Junior might not like the hit to his ego this might cause him, but what kind of leverage does he really have? The fans, and surely the organization, would not respond well to Junior complaining or griping about where he is being played - especially considering how often he has been hurt during his tenure here.

So let's say this "gets nasty" and Junior doesn't take the switch well...no other team is going to want to take him off of our hands, and he isn't going to get any sympathy from the public.

It's in his best interest to suck it up and go out there and prove that he can be a valuable member of the team no matter where in the outfield he is put. Chip on shoulder or not.

tripleaaaron
03-19-2007, 11:35 PM
Because Hamilton has twice the ceiling of Denorfia.

I agree, start him early and often. He has had a good spring and lets see if he can carry if over to the regular season. He is still the best defensive player on the team and even if his bat suffered he wouldn't hurt the team tremendously. If he suffers then make his starts sporadic, but we have to see if we have "magic in a bottle" with Hamilton. :pray:

BEETTLEBUG
03-20-2007, 12:47 AM
Well In Fact Freel Is Fighting A Hammy Or Something.

Jpup
03-20-2007, 01:14 AM
This is the best move I have seen Narron make since he was named manager. Ryan Freel should be the center fielder for the Cincinnati Reds. He is clearly the best option IMO and has been for a long, long time.

I really just think that Narron is using Jr.'s injury and being out as an excuse. It actually doesn't have anything to do with that. The only reason that Jr. will not be starting in center on opening day is because Wayne Krivsky was sick of watching him not play well. Remember that Wayne is a huge defense guy and that Jr. is the worse defensive center fielder in baseball. This is all pure speculation, but as long as Wayne has his way, Jr.'s days in center are over.

I would like to know why all of a sudden that Narron is talking out the other side of his mouth about Ryan Freel. Last year he said he was more useful as a "super-sub". That was BS to start with and I am glad he is finally getting passed that.

So who is the "super sub" now? My guess is that they don't have one. Castro will get a ton of starts on the infield and Hamilton will start and or fill in for the outfield. I expect Hamilton to start in right field on opening day if Jr. is not available, so where does that leave Deno? It's time to trade someone. The only way I can see Denorfia getting a solid amount of time is that if someone is hurt for an extended amount of time or Hamilton just totally flops.

kheidg-
03-20-2007, 01:53 AM
Junior's agent speaks:

Also, here's what Junior's agent, Brian Goldberg had to say: "We've known that for a long time. It was the Reds perrogative when they wanted to announce it even though they told us a long time ago. Junior understands the team tells us where he should play and that's the way it should be."

It doesn't sound to me that Junior is opposed to this as much as people are making it out to be.

mth123
03-20-2007, 05:09 AM
This is the best move I have seen Narron make since he was named manager. Ryan Freel should be the center fielder for the Cincinnati Reds. He is clearly the best option IMO and has been for a long, long time.

I really just think that Narron is using Jr.'s injury and being out as an excuse. It actually doesn't have anything to do with that. The only reason that Jr. will not be starting in center on opening day is because Wayne Krivsky was sick of watching him not play well. Remember that Wayne is a huge defense guy and that Jr. is the worse defensive center fielder in baseball. This is all pure speculation, but as long as Wayne has his way, Jr.'s days in center are over.

I would like to know why all of a sudden that Narron is talking out the other side of his mouth about Ryan Freel. Last year he said he was more useful as a "super-sub". That was BS to start with and I am glad he is finally getting passed that.

So who is the "super sub" now? My guess is that they don't have one. Castro will get a ton of starts on the infield and Hamilton will start and or fill in for the outfield. I expect Hamilton to start in right field on opening day if Jr. is not available, so where does that leave Deno? It's time to trade someone. The only way I can see Denorfia getting a solid amount of time is that if someone is hurt for an extended amount of time or Hamilton just totally flops.

I don't think the Reds current group views Freel as anything but an OF. I would like to see him stay in his supersub role myself. I think he is an extremely valuable player as a supersub who could bring a decent return in trade. But I do not believe the curent regime has any intention of playing Freel in the IF anymore. The Reds didn't seem to have any thought of letting Freel play 2B with Phillips at SS last year or during the offseason when it was obvious the team was an IF short. The IF spots are all filled with established players now, with the weakest of the group on a 3 year, $14 Million contract. I do not think that Freel will be getting much play in the IF barring some type of injury. Even then, I think if one of the starting IF goes down, Castro will get time, and guys stashed at AAA like Gil or Keppinger will be called up.

As a supersub who get 450 ABs or so, Freel is an extremely valuable guy. As a staring OF I think he will prove to be routine. His trade value will take a hit without the IF play in the picture anymore and as an every day guy he'll cost more when his contract is up at the end of the year.

This team is still short of quality pitching in spite of the battles for bullpen and 5th starter spots and if Freel (or Deno) could bring back a guy who can upgrade the talent in those areas (even if it means throwing in another player or two) it has to be considered. Remember the Reds "numbers" in these areas are bunched in the 5th starter or mop-up man category. An upgrade would automatically be a 3rd starter or top set-up guy in comparison.

I still think there will be AB's for all 5 OFer with Freel and Griffey needing frequent rest and Dunn should really get more time off than he has. Hopefully the seeming excess will remove any temptation to give Conine ABs as an OF. If one would be traded, I think the Reds have plenty of 25th man types (Hopper, Crosby, Wise, Gil, etc) to fill the spot (although the whole 3 catcher thing is still a possibility).

Heath
03-20-2007, 08:42 AM
I have a feeling that Josh Hamilton will be the Opening Day Right Fielder if Junior goes on the DL as expected.

bucksfan2
03-20-2007, 09:03 AM
Count me as one of the few who don't think Freel as an everyday CF is a good idea. I dont remember where I heard/read it that Jr was under the assumption that they were going to try and acquire a CF. I thought maybe with the Hamilton arrival and his upside that Jr would relinquish the CF job to him. But it seems as Narron is ready to go with Freel. IMO Freel's value both to the reds and as a trading chip takes a hit when he is inserted into the lineup every day. He doesn't have the body nor the endurance to play every day. He breaks down too easily and nagging injuries are magnified by someone who playes as hard/reckless as Freel does. He is best used as a 4-5 game a week starter and given the other 2-3 days to rest. If he plays every day I can see him being on the DL or unable to play for around 30 + games.

I wonder if these shin splints mean that Hamilton will start the season on the DL and do a rehab stint in the minors?

berryluther
03-20-2007, 09:09 AM
If the Reds falter and are sellers at the deadline I think we have 4 players that would be valuable to other teams and could bring us some talent in return. Freel, Griffey, Hatte and Conine. And if Milton can be servicable we might be able to move him also.

I would love for the Reds to be contenders, but I would also like to see a team built for several seasons not just one. If we could move Hatte and Conine at the break we would clear a spot for Votto to get half a season in.

CINCYREDS#1
03-20-2007, 09:57 AM
finally

its team first, not overpaid whiner first

IslandRed
03-20-2007, 10:20 AM
It's time to trade someone. The only way I can see Denorfia getting a solid amount of time is that if someone is hurt for an extended amount of time or Hamilton just totally flops.

Griffey could be hurt for extended periods of time.

Freel could smack into a wall or something and be out for awhile, or just wear out.

Hamilton could go through extended slumps.

Conine could finally slip from "marginally useful" to "sub-replacement level."

I don't know if all of those things will happen, but the odds are good at least one of them will, and that's why I'd rather keep everyone around for now. Denorfia is cheap insurance against any or all of those things crippling the team. It might not be ideal for him, but I think it'll be best for the club.

MaineRed
03-20-2007, 10:29 AM
The only way I can see Denorfia getting a solid amount of time is that if someone is hurt for an extended amount of time or Hamilton just totally flops.

People keep posting this exact comment as if we are supposed to be surprised, shocked or upset.

Unless there was an injury to Freel, Griff or Dunn, Denorfia wasn't going to see a lot of time in the Reds OF in the first place. We've known this since LAST spring.

I don't know why we have to trade Deno. Griffey is Griffey and is clearly on his way out the door. Ryan Freel could crash into a wall on opening day and break his face. Bang, Dunn, Hamilton, Deno is your OF.

cacollinsmba
03-20-2007, 10:51 AM
As of 11 AM today, 65% of those that responded to the Enquirer's poll do not agree with the decision to move Griffey to RF.

Cyclone792
03-20-2007, 10:54 AM
As of 11 AM today, 65% of those that responded to the Enquirer's poll do not agree with the decision to move Griffey to RF.

That's what happens when casual baseball fans stare at a wall of gold gloves without considering the effect aging has on defensive performance. Griffey's been an awful defensive center fielder for years now, and the only fans who are blind to the fact are the ones that haven't paid much attention.

Put a poll up here, and I bet the results look a bit different.

cacollinsmba
03-20-2007, 10:56 AM
Put a poll up here, and I bet the results look a bit different.

Exactly. I bet it would be at least 65% the other way.

Roy Tucker
03-20-2007, 11:05 AM
My take is that events (Junior slow to heal) are allowing Narron to say one thing to placate (and honor) Junior, but do a different thing (Junior won't ever play CF except in a dire emergency).

Narron gets to say that Junior had a shot at CF this spring when I don't think he ever did. Baseball managers don't always tell the truth.

Gonzales, Phillips, and Freel/Hamilton/Denorfia are close to the Larkin, Reese, and Cameron level of ability. It will be nice to have a good up-the-middle defense again. Well, except catcher.

Always Red
03-20-2007, 11:12 AM
That's what happens when casual baseball fans stare at a wall of gold gloves without considering the effect aging has on defensive performance. Griffey's been an awful defensive center fielder for years now, and the only fans who are blind to the fact are the ones that haven't paid much attention.



or, the only fans who are blind to that fact are the ones who get all of their baseball information from the Cincinnati Enquirer.

Which, of course, is the same as not paying much attention! ;)

membengal
03-20-2007, 11:49 AM
So many threads this could go in, and I am not going to start another. John Fay's latest on it from his blog:

I've been tossing around the Ken Griffey Jr. thing in my mind since Jerry Narron said what he said. Here's what we know:

--Narron has made a pretty bold move. My guess is it's a move no other manager in the Griffey Era had the authority to make. Narron spent a lot of time talking to Jim Leyland before Monday's game. This is a move Leyland would make in a heartbeat. I'm sure the subject of Leyland's handling of Barry Bonds in the early days came up.

--The ball is Griffey's court. How he reacts to this will shape his image in Cincinnati for the long-term. "If he says, whatever's best for team, I'm OK with it." He'll look very good. If he complains about the move, he's going to look bad. My guess is he won't talk about it.

--Josh Hamilton was a huge in the Reds forcing the issue. They think he can play right or center well enough to cover for the Griffey and Ryan Freel. Freel is about as injury prone as Griffey.

--Griffey's going to have to get in the lineup this week to be on active roster on Opening Day. The hand may prevent him of doing that.

I'm going to be on with Lance McAlister at 3:20 today. It will be good to get the radio talk shower callers' take from him.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/

Roy Tucker
03-20-2007, 11:59 AM
I don't think Fay ought to blog. It just makes his ineptitude all the more obvious.

It's like listening to my dog think.

texasdave
03-20-2007, 12:12 PM
I don't think Fay ought to blog. It just makes his ineptitude all the more obvious.

It's like listening to my dog think.

And all these years I have had the greatest respect for Mr. Peabody. :)

Reds Fanatic
03-22-2007, 11:31 AM
An update on Junior from C. Trent's blog today:



Just talked to Jr. a little bit. Nothing too exciting, pretty much the same thing he's said since the Winter Meetings, that he's fine with moving, it's not his job to determine where he's playing -- that's what he's been saying since December. "I'm just a ballplayer," Griffey said. Someone then mentioned to him that he's not just another ballplayer, that he was an All-Century team member and has a different status. "I am just another ballplayer. The minute I think I'm not, I'm (fill in the blank)."

KronoRed
03-22-2007, 01:15 PM
Is this going to be a thing with the writers where every day they ask "So how does RF feel today?" ;)

Chip R
03-22-2007, 01:37 PM
Just talked to Jr. a little bit. Nothing too exciting, pretty much the same thing he's said since the Winter Meetings, that he's fine with moving, it's not his job to determine where he's playing -- that's what he's been saying since December. "I'm just a ballplayer," Griffey said. Someone then mentioned to him that he's not just another ballplayer, that he was an All-Century team member and has a different status. "I am just another ballplayer. The minute I think I'm not, I'm (fill in the blank)."


Ooooh, it's Match Game 2007.

klw
03-22-2007, 04:57 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2007/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2808117

It's a nice piece on Jr and the move.

Highlifeman21
03-22-2007, 06:54 PM
This is the best move I have seen Narron make since he was named manager. Ryan Freel should be the center fielder for the Cincinnati Reds. He is clearly the best option IMO and has been for a long, long time.

I really just think that Narron is using Jr.'s injury and being out as an excuse. It actually doesn't have anything to do with that. The only reason that Jr. will not be starting in center on opening day is because Wayne Krivsky was sick of watching him not play well. Remember that Wayne is a huge defense guy and that Jr. is the worse defensive center fielder in baseball. This is all pure speculation, but as long as Wayne has his way, Jr.'s days in center are over.

I would like to know why all of a sudden that Narron is talking out the other side of his mouth about Ryan Freel. Last year he said he was more useful as a "super-sub". That was BS to start with and I am glad he is finally getting passed that.

So who is the "super sub" now? My guess is that they don't have one. Castro will get a ton of starts on the infield and Hamilton will start and or fill in for the outfield. I expect Hamilton to start in right field on opening day if Jr. is not available, so where does that leave Deno? It's time to trade someone. The only way I can see Denorfia getting a solid amount of time is that if someone is hurt for an extended amount of time or Hamilton just totally flops.

Ryan Freel is at best the 2nd best option for CF, behind one Chris Denorfia, and then possibly behind one Josh Hamilton.

Ryan Freel is more useful as a super sub, to give guys like Brandon Phillips, Edwin Encarnacion, Chris Denorfia, Josh Hamilton, Ken Griffey Jr and Adam Dunn days off.

While Ryan Freel offers the Reds some nice things offensively, he's not an everyday player primarily due to his lack of anticipation on defense, and then his footwork and paths taken to balls in the field.

If we didn't have Brandon Phillips, I would think Ryan Freel would be a great option for us at 2B, and then to lead off.

If we didn't have Alex Gonzalez, I would think Ryan Freel would be a great 2B option, with Brandon Phillips as the SS.

Unfortunately, we went out and spent big money on Alex Gonzalez, and we have a Rule V draftee in Josh Hamilton that needs a home on our 25 man roster, and in turn to aid his development needs regular playing time.

We traded for Jeff Conine, who is supposed to be a platoon option with Scott Hatteberg, but in all honesty, Jerry Narron will play him in the OF this year. We will see Jeff Conine in the OF in 2007 folks, it'll happen.

So, now we have Jeff Conine, Bubba Crosby, Norris Hopper, Ryan Freel, Ken Griffey Jr, Josh Hamilton and Chris Denorfia for two, count em, two OF spots. Take Conine out of the mix, and you're still lookin at 6 guys for 2 spots. Awesome odds.

The easy solution: Hopper and Crosby to AAA, trade either Ryan Freel or Chris Denorfia.

Granted, it would make the team better, and deeper, to have Freel on the bench to platoon in RF with Griffey and then platoon Hamilton and Denorfia in CF, but I just don't see Narron having that kind of logic.

Bottomline, Juan Castro should never, ever, under any circumstance start for the Cincinnati Reds. If you need a late inning replacement, we have much better options than Juan Castro. Ryan Freel would be one of those options.